June 20, 2024 • 48 mins
The Podcast I reference at the end is Monsters, Madness, and Magic! Find them here: https://www.monstersmadnessandmagic.com/
Matt and Rachel chat music and Forever Knight with the incomparable "Music Man" behind every bit of music you hear on the show! Tune in for our special bonus episode!
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Listen to Rachel, Kate, and Hannah discuss spicy books, serious books, and everything in between (but mostly spicy!). It's like sitting down with girl friends to chat about hot book boyfriends but in podcast format! Listen now at Feast, Sheath, Shatter: A Book Chat Podcast
Love Movies, TV Shows and Books in the Fantasy, Scifi, and Horror genre and want to hear more? Check us out at The Strange and Beautiful Book Club where Rachel and her husband Matt discuss all things genre-related.
Longing for a simpler time in the police procedural genre AND love Vampires? Matt and Rachel also review the classic television show Forever Knight on their podcast, Come in 81 Kilo.
Not getting enough sweaty 90s sexcapades from your television and movie content? Listen to Meg and Rachel discuss the finer points of Geraint Wyn Davies' career over at Ger Can Get It!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rachel (00:00):
Hi. I'm Rachel.
Matt (00:01):
I'm Matt.
Fred (00:02):
And I'm Fred.
Rachel (00:04):
And this is Come in, 81 kilo.
A forever night podcast.
(01:00):
I haven't gotten to use my button in a while because we
finished. Alright. So we'retalking to Fred Molen. Right?
Matt (01:08):
Molen. Molen.
Rachel (01:09):
Molen. Molen. Okay. Thank you. Fred Molen, who I
mean, if you're listening tothis podcast, you know exactly
who he is, but the music guy forForever Night, who very
generously agreed to be on ourpodcast.
So thank you for coming on.
Matt (01:24):
My pleasure.
Rachel (01:25):
So I
have some questions which we will go by, but, also,
we might just go rogue. So we'lljust see how this goes.
Fred (01:31):
It sounds great. Sounds good.
Rachel (01:32):
You're our first interview, Fred. So
Alright. For a forever night. For forever night.
Yeah. We do some for other other podcasts. But, okay,
we're dealing with a cat, so hedoesn't interrupt our recording.
Fred (01:42):
Oh, no. I I love kitties. It's okay.
Rachel (01:46):
So you're in Nashville?
Matt (01:47):
I am. Yeah.
Rachel (01:49):
Yeah. Do you like that? What do you think? Better than
Toronto or just
Fred (01:52):
Oh, you know, I mean, when I left TV and film scoring in
2001, which was a decision I hadmade to, because I had been
burnt to a crisp, I missedmaking records as a record
producer, which I had starteddoing, in my early part of my
career, and I felt Nashville wasthe only place left, to do that
with live musicians in thestudio. And I loved producing
(02:15):
other artists and making themsound good. So I moved here in
2001, changed my life again, andand, I love Nashville because of
the musicians and the studiosand the life here. Yeah.
Rachel (02:27):
Nice. Yeah. My niece actually has a. She's 19, so her
boyfriend just moved toNashville to make it.
He's a drummer in a band.
So I thought, well, you know what? At 19, you should do
it. Just go.
Fred (02:40):
It's it's really on so many levels. It's there's
nothing like Nashville. It'sit's, you know, it is literally,
we're all musicians and singersand everyone. We all gather
here, although it has grown soexponentially over the past 7
years that it's much more of ahuge city now than it ever was.
But I still love making myrecords here.
(03:01):
It's it's magical.
Rachel (03:03):
Nice. Yeah. I was, watching an interview you did, I
think, about 7 years ago whereyou were saying you do quite a
bit of, there's only 3 recordlabels left, so you do quite a
bit of independent recordproducing?
Fred (03:17):
Yeah. I mean, I work I work for both lay you know, both
4 or there's really 4 labelsleft. But Okay. But I'll be in
but there's a lot of, you know,a lot of smaller labels and a
lot of independent, artists thatI produce. Yeah.
Rachel (03:29):
So how did you get your start just in general? Like, how
did Fred start Fred's life?
Fred (03:36):
Well, you know, I grew up in, Merrick, Long Island, which
is in the South Shore of LongIsland. And, you know, my
musical life started really whenthe Beatles played Ed Sullivan
in 1964, and I was 11 years oldand I sort of realized, because
I had been a musical little kid,but I realized I wanted to get a
(03:56):
guitar and learn how to singsongs and write songs and try to
get girls. So so my, my lifechanged literally like many,
many of my brother andsisterhood, many people in that
situation changed. And we saw adirection to to go, and my
direction, even though it didget sort of changed here and
(04:19):
there, was always musical. Andso, initially, I started as a
singer songwriter, had I hadbands, I quit school when I was
16 to pursue music moreseriously, and then wound up in
Toronto at age 17.
Again, making a life in music asa musician and singer
(04:40):
songwriter. And, and soon after,I think around 1973, so I've
been in Toronto probably for ayear or so, I was asked I was
playing a lot of club gigs as asinger songwriter, and I got
asked to produce a demo, for anartist named Dan Hill, who I was
(05:01):
playing a lot of gigs alongsideof. And I was like, well, yeah,
I can I can produce this? Youknow, I mean, I knew a lot about
records, but I didn't have anyexperience as a producer. So we
produced a little demo.
The demo turned into a recorddeal. And very shortly after, we
had hits in Canada, and my wholecareer changed because I started
(05:24):
to like my life behind thecamera, as opposed to having to
be an artist. I like being theperson who made artists sound
good. And so I liked my work asa musician and an arranger. And
a producer of a producer, recordproducer is really a director.
And I sort of liked that. Andnext thing you know, we had hits
in Canada and then, you know, Isort of my life changed and I
(05:48):
did other things as well. But,in 1977 into 78, we had a song
that we produced calledSometimes When We Touch, which
Rachel (05:57):
I have heard of that 1.
Fred (05:59):
Well, I think it is actually 1 of, the I think of
the top 200 songs of airplay. SoOh, wow. So, we were very
fortunate. We had a huge hit andI was very young and, that
catapulted me to LA for a coupleof years to produce for Clive
Davis. And, I'm just gonna giveyou a very quick recap and then,
(06:24):
move back to Toronto, which hadbeen my adopted home, and, I
became a Canadian early on, andso I was a dual citizen.
And, my wife and I, at thatpoint, we moved back in 81. We
had our children 84 and 87. Andbetween 81 and 83, 84, my career
(06:47):
as a record producer wasn'tdoing so well, but I started to
get some work as a TV and filmcomposer. And I had never wanted
to do that. But I started, youknow, I needed to make a living,
so I started to do it.
And, literally by 85, my work asa record producer was gone. And
I was becoming a full time TVand film composer. And then in
(07:09):
87, I landed some big gigs, onthe Friday 13th TV series for
Paramount and my secret identityfor Universal, and the new
Gidget for for Columbia. Andthen, I you tell me, what was
the 1st year of Forever Night?What was that?
Rachel (07:28):
1992.
Fred (07:29):
Okay. And then by that time, I was considered 1 of
Canada's most successful TV andfilm composers, but because I
was an American as well as aCanadian, I was able to sort of
really work in both places andalso qualify for Canadian
content. So, all those years ledme to, 1 of my favorite series
(07:51):
to score, which was forevernight.
Rachel (07:53):
Well, we're glad you did.
Fred (07:55):
Me too.
Rachel (07:57):
So you wrote, and I always found this interesting,
some pop songs for forevernight, the, like, Black Rose,
why did they all just leave me?Like, I haven't like, I don't
know all 7. They just popped outof my head. There
Fred (08:12):
were many. Uh-uh, The Night Falls My Name.
Rachel (08:15):
Yes. Yeah.
Fred (08:16):
Touch the Night, dark side of the glass. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (08:21):
Did you write those early on, or were those written?
No. No.
Matt (08:24):
Those were those were all written, for the show.
Rachel (08:27):
Okay. I mean, as they popped up in the episodes or did
you were you like, here's, like,a catalog of pop music we can
use?
Matt (08:33):
No. No. I I wrote all of those songs with Stan Meisner
for the show.
Rachel (08:38):
Okay. I've always wondered if you, like were you
like here's, here's, like, 7songs we can sample for the next
4 years.
Matt (08:45):
No. No. No. I mean, basically, you know, when we saw
the the, that we would needmusic for the the Raven, you
know, because of my again, mybackground is a songwriter,
record producer, and everything.So it's very easy for me.
And, what I would do because Iwas so busy, I was doing 3 TV
series at once.
Rachel (09:06):
Wow.
Matt (09:06):
So, and by the way, I don't have people who did my
work for me. I did everythingmyself. So, I would call Stan
Meisner who's a dear friend anda great hold on, song
collaboratively.
Rachel (09:17):
Who is at the front door?
Matt (09:19):
Who is at the front door? Let's find out. No one's at my
front door. Hold on. Where werewe?
We were talking about Stan. SoStan Meisner and I, we're great
friends. I produced his firstsolo album, and then we became
great, song collaboratorsbecause I loved writing lyrics,
and and, he was really good withmelodies and chords, as well as
(09:41):
producing demos. So when I wasso busy in in those years, when
we saw The Raven, when I saw TheRaven, I realized I've gotta
create sort of a gothic vibe,you know, sort of droney
mysterious rock song, landscapefor The Raven. And so, I would
(10:05):
start to write lyrics, I wouldsend them to Stan.
And again, I was so busy that Iwould just send them by I think
I would fax it to him, eventhough he was, you know, he was
only, you know, 25 minutes awayin Toronto.
Rachel (10:16):
Yeah.
Matt (10:18):
And then he'd write the music and do the demo, and then
we hire a singer. And, while Iwas scoring things, he'd be
doing the production on thosedemos. And, and so things like
the night calls my name or touchthe night or dark side of the
glass, or, what else was there?
Rachel (10:38):
Heart of darkness, I think.
Matt (10:40):
Yeah. Heart of darkness.
Rachel (10:41):
And we use Rose.
Matt (10:42):
We yeah. Black Rose. So we use Lori Yates, who was a local,
rock singer in town. And we useda gal named Molly Johnson, who
was a great sort of rock andjazz singer. And, you know, we
just gave them the direction,you know, Stan produced those
demos and masters saying, youknow, make them sort of, you
know, more mysterious.
(11:03):
And so, you know, we would getthose songs done, and I would
deliver those along with myscore, and, but they were
written for the Raven.
Rachel (11:13):
I mean, I've
always thought that was such
a stroke of genius because then you don't have to
deal with licensing rights inperpetuity.
Matt (11:19):
You know, the nice part was, they were not part of my
contract, so I did license them.Oh. But but we did license them.
At some point, we licensed themin perpetuity. Yep.
Rachel (11:32):
Yeah. So how did you end up working on forever night?
Like, what what steps led you toforever night?
Matt (11:42):
Well, I'm gonna tell you a great story. Okay.
Rachel (11:46):
I'm here for it.
Matt (11:47):
And, and I and if you have the time, I'll tell you.
Rachel (11:50):
Oh, yeah. We have plenty of time.
Matt (11:51):
Alright. Good. I had been extremely busy and very
successful in those years as aTV and film composer. My life
had changed substantially and Ieven though I never felt that I
was the right guy, I felt like II, you know, did a really good
job because I worked hard and Iwas trying to make a lot of
money for me and my family. Andso from the years from, you
(12:16):
know, 86 till about 2, 001, Iwas nonstop with an occasional
foray into record production,but, you know, 80% of what I did
were nonstop TV and film score.
I had an agent in LA, and, yousaid the 1st year was 92?
Rachel (12:35):
Yeah.
Matt (12:36):
So probably sometime in 91, I got a call from my agent
who had who passed away a fewyears later, from AIDS, sadly.
Lovely guy, Wayne Burgos. And,I'm in the middle of being very
busy, and, you know, sort of atmy peak, so to speak, of TV and
(12:58):
film score. And he called andsaid, listen. There's a really
exciting series that I'd loveyou to pitch on.
He says it's gonna be 1 of theseCBS late night shows. And, I had
already gotten 1 of them, whichwas sweating bullets, which was
a detective series in thetropics. And, but he said, I
(13:22):
think you'd be great for this 1.It's it's about a vampire cop.
And I said, well, this is I I doa lot of this.
I'm happy to audition for this.And he said and on top of it, he
said, it's the company you'veworked for, which is, a company
that did a series called BeyondReality, which I did for 2 years
for USA Network, which was aboutparanormal psychologists who try
(13:46):
to solve cases. And I love that.Sure. And the people involved
were a Toronto based companycalled 4 Point.
And, and Wayne said, well,they're involved in this in this
series. I said, well and on topof it, it was for CBS, which by
the way, means that theroyalties I'd be getting for
airplay were about 10 times whatregular cable would have been or
(14:10):
something.
Rachel (14:11):
Oh, wow.
Matt (14:11):
So it was a real big win. Yeah. And it was also for for
Columbia TriStar. So I'm like,man, I'm in, you know, what do I
gotta do? And he said, well, yougotta read the thing.
And I read the thing and theywanted some score pieces and a,
a theme demo. And I did a reallycool theme demo and some good
(14:32):
score pieces, and sent them inthrough Wayne to my agent in LA.
And, then I found out throughJohn Slann and and Richard
Borchiver, who were the Canadianproducers, who I had a
relationship with. And theysaid, listen, we have bad news
(14:53):
for you. We said, we pitched youvery hard.
We said, you're the guy to dothis. And the guy who created
the show from LA, Jim Parriot,really, he didn't like that. And
he said, I'm gonna pick the thecomposer. I don't need you to
tell me who the composer is. Andthese guys called me and said, I
(15:14):
don't think you have a chancebecause we can't push back
against him.
He's very adamant that, youknow, just because you're our
guy doesn't mean shit to him.Yeah. So that was you know, I
was sort of disappointed, but,you know, I was very busy, but
I'm still disappointed. And Icalled Wayne, my agent, and I
said, listen, I don't think thisguy's gonna even listen to my
(15:35):
stuff, so I'm not even gonna putit in. And Wayne said, Fred, I
believe in you.
No matter what they're tellingyou, finish the demo and get it
to the the the company. And so Ifinished the demo because I
hadn't put I hadn't actuallysent it to them yet. And after
Wayne gave me a pep talk, I sentit to them. I didn't hear
(15:59):
anything for about a week and ahalf. And then my friend, Stan
Meisner, who I wrote the songswith, called to say, hey, my
friend Clive was at the SuttonPlace Hotel in Toronto, which at
that point was like the realcool hang for all the people who
were making TV and film inCanada, and they'd all wind up
(16:21):
in the bar there.
And he said, Clive was talkingto someone at the bar who's
doing a vampire cock show. AndClive told me when he asked
who's doing the music, the guysaid this guy Fred Mullen. So
this is all now broken telephoneas far as I'm concerned. It's
(16:44):
like a rumor, you know? Yeah.
Right. But, obviously, I got alittle excited. You know? Well,
it turned out to be true. Thenext day, I got a phone call
from, Richard Borcherber at at,4 Point, at Paragon at that
point.
They called himself Paragon atthat point, at Paragon. And
(17:05):
Richard said, Jim Parriot wantsto meet with you. He loved your
demo. So I give Jim so muchcredit, because he was so dead
set against me. But when heheard my stuff, he said, this is
the right guy.
Rachel (17:21):
Yeah. That's hard to do to go back from never. I am not
that guy. And then, like,alright. Well, he actually
Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
Matt (17:28):
For for him to go to, I don't want you to tell me who to
use, and getting an attitude tobasically, you're right. He's
great, which is what they saidhe said. And so all of a sudden
now I'm doing this series. AndJim and I became great friends,
and still to this day are greatfriends. And, it was 3 seasons
(17:52):
of of episodes, that are theprobably, my most favorite,
years of scoring television andfilm.
I loved everyone involved. Ibecame great friends with many,
including Gare, and, it was justmagical, it was a magical
combination. It was hard work,but it was a magical
(18:12):
combination.
Rachel (18:13):
So what resemblance did the theme that you sent when you
sent your pitch theme actually,how much of that ended up in the
actual theme for the show?
Matt (18:24):
All of it. I actually, I did the demo, and, Jim said, I
like it the way it is.
Rachel (18:33):
Well, that's good.
Matt (18:35):
So, actually, all all all I did was remix it. You know?
Rachel (18:38):
Oh, nice. I mean, how did you end up at that? Like, we
love the theme, but how did youend up there? You heard Vampire
Cop, and you were like, okay.I've got it.
I mean, I I think I must
Matt (18:49):
have seen some footage or read a script or something, but
Rachel (18:52):
Oh, okay.
Matt (18:53):
I I just I thought a bombastic, bottom, bottom bottom
Yeah. Might be fun, you know,and and I just built on that.
Rachel (18:59):
And it works so well it works so well with the voice
over because it gives Which
Matt (19:03):
which I didn't know was gonna happen, but but I but I
like the voice over.
Rachel (19:07):
Yeah. So was it different working on the show
from season to season becausethey ended up moving around so
much?
Matt (19:15):
Well, you know, we were sort of an orphan, you know, we
we we lost the CBS thing, andthen, USA picked picked us up
and then but it was it was all,like, we didn't know if we were
gonna be renewed every year, youknow, instead of it was a little
bit disconcerting, but I thinkwe had such a united front as a
(19:37):
team that I don't reallyremember anything except the the
fun of it.
Rachel (19:42):
Yeah. Did, so did you create all the musical elements
yourself? So you sent me sometapes, and they have the
unscored versions, which werevery interesting to watch, by
the way. The ones that were nottaped over with, anime, Turner
classic movies.
Matt (20:00):
I I cannot control my kids because they were they were
doing shit. You know?
Rachel (20:05):
You know what? I don't mind because there's so many
nineties commercials, and thefun of watching the nineties,
I was like, you know what? I can't be mad because
Matt (20:12):
What I'm worried about is that my 13 son your your old son
was taping porn.
Rachel (20:17):
Well, I will let you know. Yeah. So far, anime is,
the chief
Matt (20:23):
Well, listen. My my son lives in Tokyo because of that
obsession. So
Rachel (20:27):
Oh, that's that's interesting. I mean Yeah. It was
1 I had never seen, so I amactually may watch it on my own.
There you go.
Matt (20:33):
Yeah. I'm sorry. So you're saying that I I'm what was the
question? Did I create
Rachel (20:39):
Yeah. We got off track. So I you gave me the 1. So what
I guess you were trying todescribe it to me. They sent you
the unscored tapes, and then youscored them and, I guess, gave
them time codes?
Matt (20:49):
Well, I mean, you know, for all the TV series I did in
movies, you you get a visualtime code Yeah. And and and
hopefully a locked edit of themovie or TV series. And, you
know, the way I would write, Iwould be staring into my
monitor, with my keyboard, andI'd be improvising to the
(21:11):
picture, and then I roll it backand I improvise some more, then
I'd lay something down, then I'dlay something else down, and
eventually I'd be, you know,overdubbing and overdubbing and
layering all these differentthings until I had the right
combination of sounds and synthsand samples. And then, at night,
my my crew would come in andtake all the multitrack, ideas I
(21:33):
had, not ideas, the multitrackscoring I did, put them on to a
24 track tape, and then the nextday I would go, while they
worked all through the night,then the next day I would go and
mix the show with my musicengineer, combining all the tape
all the tracks that we had, thatI had written, which they had
put to tape. So I I did I playedevery, instrument, every sound,
(21:56):
except for maybe occasionallyelectric guitar lead or
something, which I had Sam do.
Rachel (22:01):
That's really well, I because That's impressive. Yeah.
That was a question later onwhich is, like, this is before
digital, so what did you do?
Matt (22:07):
Well, it it wasn't before digital, because a lot of the
synthetics I was using weredigital samplers and stuff. But
it was certainly before,digital, computer recording like
Pro Tools. So we we did, like Isaid, I would go to sleep, and I
have my studio in my house, andmy family and I would go to
(22:28):
sleep and, my 2 guys would comein to my studio and they would
take all of my tracks, lay themon, to a 24 track tape, audio,
you know, analog tape and thenI'd go the next day and we'd
those onto, you know, some sortof digital, tape, which then
will get delivered to the filmmix and the music elements were
(22:50):
the ones that I would deliver.But, you know, I I was, you
know, I'm AAA drummer andacoustic guitar and electric
guitar player who had to becomea proficient keyboard player and
also a proficient person withsynths and samplers so that I
could really do what this jobwas. I mean, and again, I want
(23:11):
both of you to know, I had nointerest whatsoever in being a
TV and film composer,especially, 1 who had to play
everything themselves, you know.
But it was really about the factthat I needed to make a good
living and the opportunitieswere given to me and I ran with
them.
Rachel (23:29):
Yeah. And And you're good at it. Yeah. I mean, I feel
like
a lot of people end up in unusual places in their
profession that way just sort ofchasing the rabbit hole of,
okay. Here's my nextopportunity. And then maybe
sometimes you get so far downwhere you're like, you know
what? Maybe I didn't love thisdirection, which I guess you did
in 2001. And then Right.
(23:49):
You know, do
Matt (23:49):
You know, I I had I had done it for so long, so
intensely on my own, from 85till 2, 001 that I was so done.
Rachel (24:00):
Yeah. Especially if it's, like, in your office, in
your house. Like, you neverYeah.
Matt (24:03):
I mean, but I mean, it it's analogous to, a fastball
major league fastball pitcher,hitting a certain age and
realizing they don't have theirfastball anymore. Yeah. And I'm
like, you know what? I wanna goback to making records. You
know?
So
Rachel (24:19):
Yeah. And I'm I feel like
you hit a really good moment in television.
Matt (24:24):
I I think I did. Yeah.
Rachel (24:26):
Yeah. I mean, obviously, we love nineties TV. That's
pretty much all we do.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Just a good moment for for synthesizer score
for kind of that I don't know.The the thing we love about
Forever Night is that kind of,like, wild west. Like, there's
obviously a bunch of people wholove this show, who are all
working on it, and not thismajor studio where it's just a
(24:47):
sea of people who are allcontributing.
Alright. So your favoriteepisode to score or maybe at
this point, just an episode thatstood out so much, you still
remember it?
Matt (24:57):
You know what? Here's the thing, Rachel and Matt, III have
to tell you that I did so muchwork in those years that my
memory of each episode is verycloudy because, literally, we're
talking 3 out 3 days a week.
Rachel (25:16):
Yeah.
Matt (25:17):
I would write that score and record it and play all the
instruments and go to the nextshow or whatever series I was
doing, and it just it'simpossible to remember, But
there were highlights, ofcourse, you know.
Rachel (25:28):
Mhmm.
Matt (25:28):
I remember once 1 piece of score I wrote for an episode
called Avenging Angel. And Iremember I really loved it
because it was just a 3 minutepiece, and I begged them to turn
the sound effects off when theymixed it, and just make it a
surreal musical and visualmoment. So I love that. I have
very strong memories of, thelast episode because there was
(25:54):
so much emotion. Emotion fromthe team, and by the way, again,
we were all we became a greatteam of people.
I would go to the set all thetime, and we would hang and have
a lovely, lovely life, as teammembers together. And, and that
was unusual because a lot of theTV series I did, I would never
(26:15):
spend any time on on the set.But with Forever Night and
Friday 13th series, I was on theset a lot. And, and we really
became a great team on both ofthose series. But I remember
last night, which was the lastepisode, first of all, I
remember the pressure that I hadto write the final score piece,
(26:36):
which was, I guess, the death ofNick.
Rachel (26:39):
Yeah. And Allegedly.
Matt (26:41):
You know, allegedly. Well, we were hoping it was gonna be
allegedly, but apparently itwas, you know. Because in at
that point, we were thinking, ohmy god, you know, it'll be a
dream sequence and we'll comeback next season or something.
Rachel (26:53):
Yeah.
Matt (26:54):
But it never did. So, the pressure that I had on myself
was a lot, but I rememberwriting the last cue and really
being proud of it. Like, reallysaying, you know, I because I
think I suck on so many levelscompared compared to the great
TV and film composers like JohnWilliams and, you know, Jerry
Goldsmith and Dave Gruzin and,you know, Thomas Newman and all
(27:18):
these you know, I'm nothing. I'mjust a I'm just a period on a
page, you know. But I felt likeI did a really good job for the
people I worked for.
But I felt like that last cue onon last night was 1 of my best
cues. Yeah.
Rachel (27:37):
Yeah. I think Ashes to Ashes in last night are some of
my favorite episodes. So
Matt (27:41):
Ashes had that had a lot of music. Yeah.
Rachel (27:43):
Yeah. Yeah. That was a that's 1 of my favorite
episodes. I was so excited whenwe got Matt had no idea how it
was going to end. I managed tokeep it a secret for 2 years.
Matt (27:52):
See, I I don't I don't remember a thing about the
episode, but I remember therewas a lot of music.
Rachel (27:58):
Ironically, my next question is about avenging
angel, so that's really funny. Iwas like, Avenging Angel is the
the scene you're talking aboutis close to the end, and it's
where he's driving.
Matt (28:08):
Correct.
Rachel (28:08):
And we just get the music because it's this moment
where he's kind of lettingsomeone
Matt (28:13):
Yes.
Rachel (28:13):
Do something illegal. Yes. And we talk about it quite
a bit in the episode that we didon Avenging Angel. But what it
led me to ask was how muchcreative control did you have
over over the score and
Matt (28:28):
Well, I I think 1 of the nice things, Rachel, is that
when you are the composer for along period of time on a series,
once the series gets going, theyreally just let you do what you
do. And and and, they trust youbecause, you know, they've liked
what you've done. And after awhile, you've sort of set a
(28:51):
style instead of thing. And and,and so once Forever Knight went
into the 3rd or 4th episode, no1 listened to a thing I did
until it was mixed on the floor.So I had complete, creative
control.
Rachel (29:06):
Well, I'm sure that was reassuring. Like, oh, no, no,
Fred, you got this. It's okay.
Matt (29:10):
Well, but that but that's what we would do. You know, when
when I would do long termseries, once you've got, you
know, or not or just any series,once you got past the second or
third episode, everyone was busyand they would just say, hey, go
do your thing, you know. Andand, you know, maybe
occasionally someone would calland say, hey, you know, they
wanna change that 1 queue, butthat, you know, on forever night
(29:31):
that never happened, you know.
Rachel (29:33):
So you kinda answered this already, but I'm gonna ask
it anyway. Do you still keep intouch with anyone from the show?
Matt (29:39):
Well, Jim is still a Facebook friend, although I
haven't spoken to Jim probablyin about 4 or 5 years, but we
did keep up a great friendshipup until probably a few years
before COVID. Same thing withGare. I I always loved hanging
with him in later years, but Ihaven't spoken to him in about 5
years as well. And as far as therest of the team and and actors,
(30:07):
you know, some of their Facebookfriends of mine and we keep in
touch a little bit. But, I wouldsay, you know, at the moment,
no.
Not not not keeping in closetouch.
Rachel (30:17):
Yeah. I mean, it's been 30 years. So
Matt (30:20):
But, you know, but I really literally I I miss them.
I love them. They're great.
Rachel (30:24):
We just met Gar, last year. We went up to Stratford
and saw a play that he was inYep. And waited outside the
door. I lost my mind, and Idon't actually remember what I
said to him, but Matt was there,and he, he says that we did
okay. Well like, I have apodcast.
(30:45):
Like, it was awful, but it'sfine. It's fine.
Matt (30:47):
Well, he's he's just a great guy.
Rachel (30:49):
Yeah. He was very nice. And we actually met Kathy. We
drove down to Orlando and sawher at a convention in
Matt (30:55):
Kathy Disher?
Rachel (30:56):
Yeah. Catherine Disher. Doing? She was very, very
lovely. Like, I really enjoyedmeeting her, and she lives in
Toronto now.
And she's done so much work forthe Hallmark Channel, and I'm
just I, like, I love to seepeople stay successful. And we
just met John John Kapiolos inNew Jersey. So we've we've been
on a forever night tour. Ihaven't looked through.
Matt (31:17):
John and I got along famously. I loved, Nigel. Nigel
was great fun. He was terrificto to to hang with. I loved them
all.
I'm gonna say, I mean, it reallywas that's what I'm saying. I
probably had more it was more ofa positive experience on that
series than any series I everdid, and, and I just, I just
(31:39):
loved I loved being appreciatedby them, and I appreciated them
so much.
Rachel (31:47):
So I was poking around, and I found an interview from
1997 that you did. And I found 1line really interesting where
you're talking about how therewas a complete lack of
merchandise for the show, likemerchandise and advertising. And
so my question was, if you couldhave 1 piece like, if you could
have them make 1 piece ofmerchandise from the show, what
(32:08):
would it be?
Matt (32:10):
Oh, I don't I I don't even know. No. I don't know. I have
to think about you know, I've II actually, you know, sort of I
have a fund for my kids becauseeven though they're 40 and 37,
my daughter lives in LA now withher 2 kids and her husband and,
you know, frankly, you know,they can use some extra money so
(32:32):
I constantly sell off stuff andgive it to them. And I I had
some merch, man.
I had well, I had crewmerchandise.
Rachel (32:39):
Yeah.
Matt (32:40):
Like, I had, you know, jackets and hats and t shirts
and sweatshirts and that kind ofstuff. So I I, you know but I
know I I don't need anything anddidn't I can't think of it.
Rachel (32:51):
Well, I just thought it'd be fun to ask.
Yeah. No.
Matt (32:54):
I'm it's a good question. Yeah.
Rachel (32:56):
Rachel's wearing a shirt she designed.
My CERK. You probably can't see it. Home of the
Nightcrawler.
Matt (33:03):
Yeah. That's the radio station. Yeah.
Rachel (33:05):
Yeah. We have some some this isn't a plug for my
merchandise, but we do havesome.
Matt (33:09):
And, obviously, you've seen the blooper reels and
everything. Right? So yeah.
Rachel (33:12):
Yeah. Yeah. You can find them online. So I've I've seen a
couple. Yeah.
Yeah. You've moved on and donesome other stuff, including for
Disney. What was it like workingfor Disney?
Matt (33:23):
Well, I didn't work for Disney as a TV and film
composer. Well, that's not true.I did a series in 2, 000, before
I left, scoring called in aheartbeat for the Disney
Channel. It was a terribleseries. I hated it.
And it'll never be seen again.It was just a piece of Dreck.
(33:45):
You know, I had, before I leftTV and film score, I had gotten
a call, from my friend JayLandry, who I'd worked with
before in record in the recordside of things. And he was now
the head of Disney's, recordlabel for children. And he said,
would you do an instrumentallullaby album for Disney
(34:07):
records?
And I was like, of course. Youknow? I'll squeeze it in, and I
and I took well known Disneysongs as well as some other
songs and turned them into very,very, very, you know, just
almost meditative versions,piano and strings, as an album
to put little children to bed.And it was called the Disney
(34:29):
Lullaby album, and it sold overa 1000000 copies so far.
Rachel (34:32):
Wow.
Matt (34:34):
And so I became Disney's most, successful instrumental
lullaby artist. I did I did 6different albums for Disney for
lullabies. But then in, 20002006, I got an offer to run the
label as the a and r person forWalt Disney records. And so for
(34:56):
a year and a half, I did run thelabel in Burbank and moved there
and did that, as well as I didmany other albums for Disney of
all different kinds of things.But again, this was all my this
is post scoring.
I mean, I didn't
Rachel (35:11):
go back. Yeah.
Matt (35:12):
I never went back to film scoring after that, after 90
after about 2, 001. Yeah.
Rachel (35:17):
You're just done?
Matt (35:19):
Yeah. I mean, it was really I I walked away going, I
love making records. I lovebeing with other people and
working as a team. And I haddecided after 16, 17 years of
lonely deadlines, doingeverything myself that, I was
burnt to a crisp.
Rachel (35:40):
Yeah. So what do you if we there was a reboot or a
reimagining of forever night,what do you think that would
look like?
Matt (35:50):
Well, I mean, boy, that's a great question. I mean, are
you thinking maybe that the samepeople are in it, but they play
older characters, or are yousaying new people?
Rachel (35:59):
Well, my joke is always that Garrett comes back and
plays Lacroix, and then we get ayoung guy for the
the Nick character.
Matt (36:06):
Well, I mean I mean, that would be a good way to look at
it. I mean, yeah, that thatmaybe, that maybe, you know, Ger
does become sort of the, youknow, the grandfather vampire.
And and and either he leads themor he tries to be destructive.
And, and then we have new a newNick, so to speak.
Rachel (36:26):
Yeah. I mean, that's the end of my questions for you.
Was, really, my last 1 was, inthe interview from 1997, you
said you thought last night wasa good ending for the show. 30
years on, do you still feel thesame way?
Matt (36:39):
Well, you know, in retrospect, I think it's a great
ending for the show because itnever came never came back, so
we
Rachel (36:48):
because it is the Yeah.
Matt (36:49):
We we sort of we put the stake in the heart a lot
Rachel (36:51):
of closure.
Matt (36:52):
Speak, and and it was a pretty severe stake in the
heart. So, I would havepreferred it not to have been
that way. Sure.
Rachel (37:00):
Well, thank you, Fred, for coming and talking to us.
Matt (37:02):
Oh my god. It's my pleasure. I mean, I I get such a
kick out of, even rememberingthis stuff. It was such a great
time.
Rachel (37:09):
Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's still sticking around
because somebody made a podcastabout it. We did.
Us. Just us. Exactly.
Matt (37:17):
No. I'm you know what, I'm I'm very, it means it means a
lot to me that that, thisparticular show gets, has such
loyal fans and and people whohave have, have such a great
attachment to it. Yeah.
Rachel (37:33):
I just feel like, I wish whoever owned the rights would
give it some love. Like, itfeels like an abandoned
property, and I hate that forit.
Matt (37:42):
Yeah.
Rachel (37:43):
Like, I wish we could get an HD release or, you know,
literally any like, a DVD wecould buy would be great.
Or even just streaming season 3.
Matt (37:51):
Yeah. Well, so so the DVDs aren't available anymore?
Rachel (37:54):
No. The ones that Sony Tri Star released were
discontinued, and there's 1company that releases, like, a
full box set, Mill Creek, Ithink.
Yeah, man.
And they're kind of the, like, all where all TV shows go
to die, ones where, like,they're all in cardboard and,
anyway. So it's just You know,
Matt (38:12):
III think that I think you're right. You know, sadly,
we I think we really were anorphan, on many levels. But you
never know. I mean, again, therethere's, you know, there's
there's always a possibilitythat they'll realize they had
some some serious mojo on thisshow, and and and they'll
they'll show it some love.
Rachel (38:33):
Yeah. That would be nice because I feel like this is a
thing that didn't get doneagain. Yeah. Like, forever night
didn't get done. Like, a lot ofTV shows, you know, they pop up
cyclically, you know, every 15years.
Oh, that's like that up of thatTV show.
Matt (38:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (38:46):
And a lot of people reference Angel or Moonlight,
but I I don't think they're thesame. Like, I don't lump them
together. It feels like forevernight's its own thing.
Matt (38:54):
I think we were I think we had a very unique show, and I
think it was, it you know,there's no question. It was a
cult item, but I think it had alot of heart and a a lot of, it
was a soulful show.
Rachel (39:10):
Yeah. I we well, we heartily agree. So thank you
again, Fred, for coming on. Wewon't, but I think we've taken
40 minutes of your time. So
Matt (39:18):
I'm so glad to have done it. I really I get such a kick
out of it. Thank you.
Rachel (39:22):
You're welcome. And, thank you so much for the tapes.
I'm, like, super excited towatch all of them.
Matt (39:27):
I'm I'm delighted someone who would be able to get a kick
out of them got them.
Rachel (39:31):
I did have a question about them. Some of them were
labeled as the Glen Warrenversion?
Matt (39:35):
Yes.
Rachel (39:35):
What does that mean?
Matt (39:36):
Glen Warren was the Canadian production company.
Rachel (39:39):
Oh, okay.
Matt (39:40):
Actually, it was the Canadian production facility.
Rachel (39:44):
Okay.
Matt (39:46):
And Glenn Warren productions had a a channel
called the CFTO and CTV inCanada. So Okay. So they ran
forever night, but I think it'sa longer episode.
Rachel (39:56):
Okay. Yeah. The crime time after prime time.
Matt (39:59):
Yeah. See, I I do remember. See, you're make
you're making you're making meremember things. We did we did I
did have to add a couple ofextra scenes of music for the
Canadian versions.
Rachel (40:11):
Yeah. I think they were, like, 5 ish minutes longer.
Matt (40:13):
Like, 4, like, 4 minutes longer. Yeah.
Rachel (40:15):
Yeah. Because when we were watching it through with
Matt, there's a lot of thosescenes where, like, Nick appears
to have gone back to his hishouse, and he's in his satin
pajamas, but he's, like, onduty. Yeah. And it's the, like,
0 minutes that they just, like,fluffed in. I love it.
Matt (40:32):
But that's that's the thing. When I was looking
through the stuff that hebrought me, I was, like, oh,
Glenn Warr so these were theCanadian versions. They were
longer. Yeah. That's
Rachel (40:40):
right. Yeah.
Matt (40:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (40:42):
Yeah. Let's
Matt (40:43):
Anyway, those were they they were very creative times. I
I I'm I'm very fortunate to havehad the run on that show. Really
do. I feel very fortunate.
Rachel (40:52):
Well, we'll
let you go, Fred, so you can have a good evening. I guess
it's probably about 8 there now.
Matt (40:57):
It's heading towards 8. Yeah.
Rachel (40:58):
Yeah. So we have to go rescue my kids there over at
grandma's. So Alright.
Matt (41:02):
Well, listen. I great to meet you both. And, and again,
I'm very, very grateful that,you know, people love the show,
really.
Rachel (41:10):
Oh, thank you. Yeah. And we're glad you made it so that
we can watch it.
Matt (41:14):
My pleasure.
Rachel (41:15):
Oh, I
was gonna watch there's 1 episode, Dying for Fame. I'm
sorry. You were done and nothearing I'm
not done. Okay. Carry
on. There's 1 episode called dying for fame, and it's
the, like, rock star 1. It's inseason 1, and it's played like a
music video.
Like a music video. Yeah. Kind of thing.
I know you were involved in, like, the writing and
filming of that, but, like
Matt (41:36):
Yes.
Rachel (41:37):
Why?
Matt (41:42):
Why was I involved?
Rachel (41:43):
No. No.
I mean, like, why
why does this episode exist? Like, I I like it just
fine, but it's the most it's theoddest episode out of all of
them. It doesn't have a realflashback. He has
Matt (41:52):
a real life. To watch it. Again, you know, you're talking
about things I did 30 was it 30years now?
Rachel (41:58):
Yeah. Well, you'll watch it, and you'll be like, oh,
okay. And it's kind of like thebackstory for all of the pop
music that's in The Ravenbecause Yeah. Introduces the
soundtrack.
Matt (42:07):
Having to go to the shoots, to oversee the the stuff
with the performance stuff. Waswasn't that the 1 that had Dark
Side of the Glass?
Rachel (42:18):
Yeah. It's the 1 where it's the singer, and she's
written, like, fan kill orsomething. And so it's a huge
controversy. And so they, ofcourse, they have to go do
security even though they'rehomicide detectives, but it's
fine.
Matt (42:29):
Right.
Rachel (42:29):
And, they it's it's just an I don't know. It's a I like
season 1 because it feels soexperimental, and that 1 feels
like the most experimental ofall the episodes. So I just
like, every time I watch it, I'mlike, I wanna talk to whoever
made these decisions so I knowhow we got here.
Matt (42:48):
Yeah. I mean, I just you know, listen. I think when you
do, an episodic series, youknow, people are constantly
coming up with any idea theypossibly can. And, I just
remember that I was involved ina lot of the shooting of that,
and, and I remember having towrite Dark Side of the Glass for
a montage or something. And,
Rachel (43:07):
Yeah. Because he
Matt (43:07):
And, actually, that might that might be my favorite song
of the batch. You know?
Rachel (43:12):
It's a good song. And it gets it gets really showcased in
that episode because instead ofhaving a real flashback, we have
these scenes where he's, like,watching a life on on, like, CRT
TVs. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (43:25):
Yeah. I I remember saying to myself, I think we did a
really good song here. Yeah.
Rachel (43:29):
Yeah. I think that's a good episode. I just Yeah. I
always wonder about that. Idon't know because it's so
different than all the others.
Because season 3 gets weird, butit's weird in, like, a, okay. We
were trying to be Safeway. Thiswas in, like, a, oh, let's do
something cool way.
Matt (43:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Was that the first season? I forget.
Rachel (43:46):
Yeah. That's season 1. Because is dead, but he shows up
in that flashback. Yeah. Becausehe's dead
Matt (43:55):
from season 1. I would need you to remind me of
everything at this point.
Rachel (43:59):
Well, it's cool. I know it. It's fine.
Matt (44:01):
Rich, you know, honestly, I've been in so many so many
hours of television score.
Rachel (44:06):
And Oh, I'm sure they all just blend.
Matt (44:09):
Yeah. There's not you know, I'm cons constantly being
written to by fans saying,remember in episode 10 of Friday
13th when when so and so didthat? I'm like, I I don't even
know what you're talking about.
Rachel (44:23):
You know?
Matt (44:24):
I have no idea. I mean, there might be, like, 5 scenes
out of 77 episodes that Iremember. You know? Everything
else was just, like, you know,the deadlines were psychotic.
Rachel (44:33):
Right. I'm sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it's streaming on the Roku channel if you wanna
watch it.
Matt (44:40):
What is?
Rachel (44:41):
Forever night.
Matt (44:42):
It is?
Rachel (44:43):
Yeah. Only season 1 and 2. Season 3 is a different
rights holder, so you can neverfind it. But season 1 is the
stream. Wow.
So
Matt (44:50):
what do you mean it's a different what do you mean it's
a different rights holder?
Rachel (44:53):
So season 1 and season 2 are owned by 1 company, and then
season 3 is independent. So youcan buy all 3 seasons on Apple,
but you can only stream season 1and 2.
Matt (45:03):
Okay.
Rachel (45:04):
Yeah.
Matt (45:05):
Well, I again, III love the fact that people still love
the show. It's great.
Rachel (45:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. There's a surprisingly lively, fan
community still, like Facebookgroups and stuff. Yeah. The
listserv is still running.
Yeah. The email listserv is still running.
Matt (45:21):
What happened to Deb? What happened to Deb DeShane?
Rachel (45:24):
We Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah. Yeah.
Really. Like, the monsters themonsters madness and mayhem guy,
who I think you were on hispodcast. He just had Gare on,
and he asked him about Deb, andhe didn't know. And he asked
Nigel, and Nigel didn't know.
Matt (45:44):
Really?
Rachel (45:45):
Yeah. So she just disappeared.
Matt (45:47):
Well, she was really good in that show.
Rachel (45:49):
I know. It was a shame that she
A travesty.
A travesty that she left.
Matt (45:55):
I'm I'm amazed. I would have thought she would have
continued. You know, I knowwe're just sort of shooting the
shit here. I didn't love, youknow, the Ben Bass stuff. No,
Rachel (46:08):
no, we're I
Matt (46:09):
thought that was really, I thought that was their, you
know, and I remember Gare, like,not really being thrilled, you
know, because it was sort oflike, oh, now you have to have
another hunky guy, you know.
Rachel (46:19):
Yeah. No. We're not kind to Ben Bass.
Matt (46:23):
Yeah. I so I
Rachel (46:24):
I mean, we're not kind to Vashon. Like, Ben Bass is,
I'm sure, a fine person, butwe're not trying to Vashon. Fine
person, but
Fred (46:30):
I Yeah. But I remember saying, I don't love this
character that much and and and,you know, but but I, you know,
again, but I still was had sucha good time that, you know. You
have to remember, when I say Ihad a good time, I worked so
hard and so relentlessly, and Iwas so well appreciated by these
people and considered them to begreat, friends and great,
(46:52):
associates that it made the hardwork great.
Rachel (46:55):
Yeah. It didn't you didn't hate all the long hours.
Matt (46:59):
I was really lucky. Yeah.
Rachel (47:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
I get that. That makes a lot of sense. Alright. Now we
will let you go.
Fred (47:08):
Have a wonderful night, and I thank you guys so much.
Hi. I'm Rachel.
Matt (00:01):
I'm Matt.
Fred (00:02):
And I'm Fred.
Rachel (00:04):
And this is Come in, 81 kilo.
A forever night podcast.
(01:00):
I haven't gotten to use my button in a while because we
finished. Alright. So we'retalking to Fred Molen. Right?
Matt (01:08):
Molen. Molen.
Rachel (01:09):
Molen. Molen. Okay. Thank you. Fred Molen, who I
mean, if you're listening tothis podcast, you know exactly
who he is, but the music guy forForever Night, who very
generously agreed to be on ourpodcast.
So thank you for coming on.
Matt (01:24):
My pleasure.
Rachel (01:25):
So I
have some questions which we will go by, but, also,
we might just go rogue. So we'lljust see how this goes.
Fred (01:31):
It sounds great. Sounds good.
Rachel (01:32):
You're our first interview, Fred. So
Alright. For a forever night. For forever night.
Yeah. We do some for other other podcasts. But, okay,
we're dealing with a cat, so hedoesn't interrupt our recording.
Fred (01:42):
Oh, no. I I love kitties. It's okay.
Rachel (01:46):
So you're in Nashville?
Matt (01:47):
I am. Yeah.
Rachel (01:49):
Yeah. Do you like that? What do you think? Better than
Toronto or just
Fred (01:52):
Oh, you know, I mean, when I left TV and film scoring in
2001, which was a decision I hadmade to, because I had been
burnt to a crisp, I missedmaking records as a record
producer, which I had starteddoing, in my early part of my
career, and I felt Nashville wasthe only place left, to do that
with live musicians in thestudio. And I loved producing
(02:15):
other artists and making themsound good. So I moved here in
2001, changed my life again, andand, I love Nashville because of
the musicians and the studiosand the life here. Yeah.
Rachel (02:27):
Nice. Yeah. My niece actually has a. She's 19, so her
boyfriend just moved toNashville to make it.
He's a drummer in a band.
So I thought, well, you know what? At 19, you should do
it. Just go.
Fred (02:40):
It's it's really on so many levels. It's there's
nothing like Nashville. It'sit's, you know, it is literally,
we're all musicians and singersand everyone. We all gather
here, although it has grown soexponentially over the past 7
years that it's much more of ahuge city now than it ever was.
But I still love making myrecords here.
(03:01):
It's it's magical.
Rachel (03:03):
Nice. Yeah. I was, watching an interview you did, I
think, about 7 years ago whereyou were saying you do quite a
bit of, there's only 3 recordlabels left, so you do quite a
bit of independent recordproducing?
Fred (03:17):
Yeah. I mean, I work I work for both lay you know, both
4 or there's really 4 labelsleft. But Okay. But I'll be in
but there's a lot of, you know,a lot of smaller labels and a
lot of independent, artists thatI produce. Yeah.
Rachel (03:29):
So how did you get your start just in general? Like, how
did Fred start Fred's life?
Fred (03:36):
Well, you know, I grew up in, Merrick, Long Island, which
is in the South Shore of LongIsland. And, you know, my
musical life started really whenthe Beatles played Ed Sullivan
in 1964, and I was 11 years oldand I sort of realized, because
I had been a musical little kid,but I realized I wanted to get a
(03:56):
guitar and learn how to singsongs and write songs and try to
get girls. So so my, my lifechanged literally like many,
many of my brother andsisterhood, many people in that
situation changed. And we saw adirection to to go, and my
direction, even though it didget sort of changed here and
(04:19):
there, was always musical. Andso, initially, I started as a
singer songwriter, had I hadbands, I quit school when I was
16 to pursue music moreseriously, and then wound up in
Toronto at age 17.
Again, making a life in music asa musician and singer
(04:40):
songwriter. And, and soon after,I think around 1973, so I've
been in Toronto probably for ayear or so, I was asked I was
playing a lot of club gigs as asinger songwriter, and I got
asked to produce a demo, for anartist named Dan Hill, who I was
(05:01):
playing a lot of gigs alongsideof. And I was like, well, yeah,
I can I can produce this? Youknow, I mean, I knew a lot about
records, but I didn't have anyexperience as a producer. So we
produced a little demo.
The demo turned into a recorddeal. And very shortly after, we
had hits in Canada, and my wholecareer changed because I started
(05:24):
to like my life behind thecamera, as opposed to having to
be an artist. I like being theperson who made artists sound
good. And so I liked my work asa musician and an arranger. And
a producer of a producer, recordproducer is really a director.
And I sort of liked that. Andnext thing you know, we had hits
in Canada and then, you know, Isort of my life changed and I
(05:48):
did other things as well. But,in 1977 into 78, we had a song
that we produced calledSometimes When We Touch, which
Rachel (05:57):
I have heard of that 1.
Fred (05:59):
Well, I think it is actually 1 of, the I think of
the top 200 songs of airplay. SoOh, wow. So, we were very
fortunate. We had a huge hit andI was very young and, that
catapulted me to LA for a coupleof years to produce for Clive
Davis. And, I'm just gonna giveyou a very quick recap and then,
(06:24):
move back to Toronto, which hadbeen my adopted home, and, I
became a Canadian early on, andso I was a dual citizen.
And, my wife and I, at thatpoint, we moved back in 81. We
had our children 84 and 87. Andbetween 81 and 83, 84, my career
(06:47):
as a record producer wasn'tdoing so well, but I started to
get some work as a TV and filmcomposer. And I had never wanted
to do that. But I started, youknow, I needed to make a living,
so I started to do it.
And, literally by 85, my work asa record producer was gone. And
I was becoming a full time TVand film composer. And then in
(07:09):
87, I landed some big gigs, onthe Friday 13th TV series for
Paramount and my secret identityfor Universal, and the new
Gidget for for Columbia. Andthen, I you tell me, what was
the 1st year of Forever Night?What was that?
Rachel (07:28):
1992.
Fred (07:29):
Okay. And then by that time, I was considered 1 of
Canada's most successful TV andfilm composers, but because I
was an American as well as aCanadian, I was able to sort of
really work in both places andalso qualify for Canadian
content. So, all those years ledme to, 1 of my favorite series
(07:51):
to score, which was forevernight.
Rachel (07:53):
Well, we're glad you did.
Fred (07:55):
Me too.
Rachel (07:57):
So you wrote, and I always found this interesting,
some pop songs for forevernight, the, like, Black Rose,
why did they all just leave me?Like, I haven't like, I don't
know all 7. They just popped outof my head. There
Fred (08:12):
were many. Uh-uh, The Night Falls My Name.
Rachel (08:15):
Yes. Yeah.
Fred (08:16):
Touch the Night, dark side of the glass. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (08:21):
Did you write those early on, or were those written?
No. No.
Matt (08:24):
Those were those were all written, for the show.
Rachel (08:27):
Okay. I mean, as they popped up in the episodes or did
you were you like, here's, like,a catalog of pop music we can
use?
Matt (08:33):
No. No. I I wrote all of those songs with Stan Meisner
for the show.
Rachel (08:38):
Okay. I've always wondered if you, like were you
like here's, here's, like, 7songs we can sample for the next
4 years.
Matt (08:45):
No. No. No. I mean, basically, you know, when we saw
the the, that we would needmusic for the the Raven, you
know, because of my again, mybackground is a songwriter,
record producer, and everything.So it's very easy for me.
And, what I would do because Iwas so busy, I was doing 3 TV
series at once.
Rachel (09:06):
Wow.
Matt (09:06):
So, and by the way, I don't have people who did my
work for me. I did everythingmyself. So, I would call Stan
Meisner who's a dear friend anda great hold on, song
collaboratively.
Rachel (09:17):
Who is at the front door?
Matt (09:19):
Who is at the front door? Let's find out. No one's at my
front door. Hold on. Where werewe?
We were talking about Stan. SoStan Meisner and I, we're great
friends. I produced his firstsolo album, and then we became
great, song collaboratorsbecause I loved writing lyrics,
and and, he was really good withmelodies and chords, as well as
(09:41):
producing demos. So when I wasso busy in in those years, when
we saw The Raven, when I saw TheRaven, I realized I've gotta
create sort of a gothic vibe,you know, sort of droney
mysterious rock song, landscapefor The Raven. And so, I would
(10:05):
start to write lyrics, I wouldsend them to Stan.
And again, I was so busy that Iwould just send them by I think
I would fax it to him, eventhough he was, you know, he was
only, you know, 25 minutes awayin Toronto.
Rachel (10:16):
Yeah.
Matt (10:18):
And then he'd write the music and do the demo, and then
we hire a singer. And, while Iwas scoring things, he'd be
doing the production on thosedemos. And, and so things like
the night calls my name or touchthe night or dark side of the
glass, or, what else was there?
Rachel (10:38):
Heart of darkness, I think.
Matt (10:40):
Yeah. Heart of darkness.
Rachel (10:41):
And we use Rose.
Matt (10:42):
We yeah. Black Rose. So we use Lori Yates, who was a local,
rock singer in town. And we useda gal named Molly Johnson, who
was a great sort of rock andjazz singer. And, you know, we
just gave them the direction,you know, Stan produced those
demos and masters saying, youknow, make them sort of, you
know, more mysterious.
(11:03):
And so, you know, we would getthose songs done, and I would
deliver those along with myscore, and, but they were
written for the Raven.
Rachel (11:13):
I mean, I've
always thought that was such
a stroke of genius because then you don't have to
deal with licensing rights inperpetuity.
Matt (11:19):
You know, the nice part was, they were not part of my
contract, so I did license them.Oh. But but we did license them.
At some point, we licensed themin perpetuity. Yep.
Rachel (11:32):
Yeah. So how did you end up working on forever night?
Like, what what steps led you toforever night?
Matt (11:42):
Well, I'm gonna tell you a great story. Okay.
Rachel (11:46):
I'm here for it.
Matt (11:47):
And, and I and if you have the time, I'll tell you.
Rachel (11:50):
Oh, yeah. We have plenty of time.
Matt (11:51):
Alright. Good. I had been extremely busy and very
successful in those years as aTV and film composer. My life
had changed substantially and Ieven though I never felt that I
was the right guy, I felt like II, you know, did a really good
job because I worked hard and Iwas trying to make a lot of
money for me and my family. Andso from the years from, you
(12:16):
know, 86 till about 2, 001, Iwas nonstop with an occasional
foray into record production,but, you know, 80% of what I did
were nonstop TV and film score.
I had an agent in LA, and, yousaid the 1st year was 92?
Rachel (12:35):
Yeah.
Matt (12:36):
So probably sometime in 91, I got a call from my agent
who had who passed away a fewyears later, from AIDS, sadly.
Lovely guy, Wayne Burgos. And,I'm in the middle of being very
busy, and, you know, sort of atmy peak, so to speak, of TV and
(12:58):
film score. And he called andsaid, listen. There's a really
exciting series that I'd loveyou to pitch on.
He says it's gonna be 1 of theseCBS late night shows. And, I had
already gotten 1 of them, whichwas sweating bullets, which was
a detective series in thetropics. And, but he said, I
(13:22):
think you'd be great for this 1.It's it's about a vampire cop.
And I said, well, this is I I doa lot of this.
I'm happy to audition for this.And he said and on top of it, he
said, it's the company you'veworked for, which is, a company
that did a series called BeyondReality, which I did for 2 years
for USA Network, which was aboutparanormal psychologists who try
(13:46):
to solve cases. And I love that.Sure. And the people involved
were a Toronto based companycalled 4 Point.
And, and Wayne said, well,they're involved in this in this
series. I said, well and on topof it, it was for CBS, which by
the way, means that theroyalties I'd be getting for
airplay were about 10 times whatregular cable would have been or
(14:10):
something.
Rachel (14:11):
Oh, wow.
Matt (14:11):
So it was a real big win. Yeah. And it was also for for
Columbia TriStar. So I'm like,man, I'm in, you know, what do I
gotta do? And he said, well, yougotta read the thing.
And I read the thing and theywanted some score pieces and a,
a theme demo. And I did a reallycool theme demo and some good
(14:32):
score pieces, and sent them inthrough Wayne to my agent in LA.
And, then I found out throughJohn Slann and and Richard
Borchiver, who were the Canadianproducers, who I had a
relationship with. And theysaid, listen, we have bad news
(14:53):
for you. We said, we pitched youvery hard.
We said, you're the guy to dothis. And the guy who created
the show from LA, Jim Parriot,really, he didn't like that. And
he said, I'm gonna pick the thecomposer. I don't need you to
tell me who the composer is. Andthese guys called me and said, I
(15:14):
don't think you have a chancebecause we can't push back
against him.
He's very adamant that, youknow, just because you're our
guy doesn't mean shit to him.Yeah. So that was you know, I
was sort of disappointed, but,you know, I was very busy, but
I'm still disappointed. And Icalled Wayne, my agent, and I
said, listen, I don't think thisguy's gonna even listen to my
(15:35):
stuff, so I'm not even gonna putit in. And Wayne said, Fred, I
believe in you.
No matter what they're tellingyou, finish the demo and get it
to the the the company. And so Ifinished the demo because I
hadn't put I hadn't actuallysent it to them yet. And after
Wayne gave me a pep talk, I sentit to them. I didn't hear
(15:59):
anything for about a week and ahalf. And then my friend, Stan
Meisner, who I wrote the songswith, called to say, hey, my
friend Clive was at the SuttonPlace Hotel in Toronto, which at
that point was like the realcool hang for all the people who
were making TV and film inCanada, and they'd all wind up
(16:21):
in the bar there.
And he said, Clive was talkingto someone at the bar who's
doing a vampire cock show. AndClive told me when he asked
who's doing the music, the guysaid this guy Fred Mullen. So
this is all now broken telephoneas far as I'm concerned. It's
(16:44):
like a rumor, you know? Yeah.
Right. But, obviously, I got alittle excited. You know? Well,
it turned out to be true. Thenext day, I got a phone call
from, Richard Borcherber at at,4 Point, at Paragon at that
point.
They called himself Paragon atthat point, at Paragon. And
(17:05):
Richard said, Jim Parriot wantsto meet with you. He loved your
demo. So I give Jim so muchcredit, because he was so dead
set against me. But when heheard my stuff, he said, this is
the right guy.
Rachel (17:21):
Yeah. That's hard to do to go back from never. I am not
that guy. And then, like,alright. Well, he actually
Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
Matt (17:28):
For for him to go to, I don't want you to tell me who to
use, and getting an attitude tobasically, you're right. He's
great, which is what they saidhe said. And so all of a sudden
now I'm doing this series. AndJim and I became great friends,
and still to this day are greatfriends. And, it was 3 seasons
(17:52):
of of episodes, that are theprobably, my most favorite,
years of scoring television andfilm.
I loved everyone involved. Ibecame great friends with many,
including Gare, and, it was justmagical, it was a magical
combination. It was hard work,but it was a magical
(18:12):
combination.
Rachel (18:13):
So what resemblance did the theme that you sent when you
sent your pitch theme actually,how much of that ended up in the
actual theme for the show?
Matt (18:24):
All of it. I actually, I did the demo, and, Jim said, I
like it the way it is.
Rachel (18:33):
Well, that's good.
Matt (18:35):
So, actually, all all all I did was remix it. You know?
Rachel (18:38):
Oh, nice. I mean, how did you end up at that? Like, we
love the theme, but how did youend up there? You heard Vampire
Cop, and you were like, okay.I've got it.
I mean, I I think I must
Matt (18:49):
have seen some footage or read a script or something, but
Rachel (18:52):
Oh, okay.
Matt (18:53):
I I just I thought a bombastic, bottom, bottom bottom
Yeah. Might be fun, you know,and and I just built on that.
Rachel (18:59):
And it works so well it works so well with the voice
over because it gives Which
Matt (19:03):
which I didn't know was gonna happen, but but I but I
like the voice over.
Rachel (19:07):
Yeah. So was it different working on the show
from season to season becausethey ended up moving around so
much?
Matt (19:15):
Well, you know, we were sort of an orphan, you know, we
we we lost the CBS thing, andthen, USA picked picked us up
and then but it was it was all,like, we didn't know if we were
gonna be renewed every year, youknow, instead of it was a little
bit disconcerting, but I thinkwe had such a united front as a
(19:37):
team that I don't reallyremember anything except the the
fun of it.
Rachel (19:42):
Yeah. Did, so did you create all the musical elements
yourself? So you sent me sometapes, and they have the
unscored versions, which werevery interesting to watch, by
the way. The ones that were nottaped over with, anime, Turner
classic movies.
Matt (20:00):
I I cannot control my kids because they were they were
doing shit. You know?
Rachel (20:05):
You know what? I don't mind because there's so many
nineties commercials, and thefun of watching the nineties,
I was like, you know what? I can't be mad because
Matt (20:12):
What I'm worried about is that my 13 son your your old son
was taping porn.
Rachel (20:17):
Well, I will let you know. Yeah. So far, anime is,
the chief
Matt (20:23):
Well, listen. My my son lives in Tokyo because of that
obsession. So
Rachel (20:27):
Oh, that's that's interesting. I mean Yeah. It was
1 I had never seen, so I amactually may watch it on my own.
There you go.
Matt (20:33):
Yeah. I'm sorry. So you're saying that I I'm what was the
question? Did I create
Rachel (20:39):
Yeah. We got off track. So I you gave me the 1. So what
I guess you were trying todescribe it to me. They sent you
the unscored tapes, and then youscored them and, I guess, gave
them time codes?
Matt (20:49):
Well, I mean, you know, for all the TV series I did in
movies, you you get a visualtime code Yeah. And and and
hopefully a locked edit of themovie or TV series. And, you
know, the way I would write, Iwould be staring into my
monitor, with my keyboard, andI'd be improvising to the
(21:11):
picture, and then I roll it backand I improvise some more, then
I'd lay something down, then I'dlay something else down, and
eventually I'd be, you know,overdubbing and overdubbing and
layering all these differentthings until I had the right
combination of sounds and synthsand samples. And then, at night,
my my crew would come in andtake all the multitrack, ideas I
(21:33):
had, not ideas, the multitrackscoring I did, put them on to a
24 track tape, and then the nextday I would go, while they
worked all through the night,then the next day I would go and
mix the show with my musicengineer, combining all the tape
all the tracks that we had, thatI had written, which they had
put to tape. So I I did I playedevery, instrument, every sound,
(21:56):
except for maybe occasionallyelectric guitar lead or
something, which I had Sam do.
Rachel (22:01):
That's really well, I because That's impressive. Yeah.
That was a question later onwhich is, like, this is before
digital, so what did you do?
Matt (22:07):
Well, it it wasn't before digital, because a lot of the
synthetics I was using weredigital samplers and stuff. But
it was certainly before,digital, computer recording like
Pro Tools. So we we did, like Isaid, I would go to sleep, and I
have my studio in my house, andmy family and I would go to
(22:28):
sleep and, my 2 guys would comein to my studio and they would
take all of my tracks, lay themon, to a 24 track tape, audio,
you know, analog tape and thenI'd go the next day and we'd
those onto, you know, some sortof digital, tape, which then
will get delivered to the filmmix and the music elements were
(22:50):
the ones that I would deliver.But, you know, I I was, you
know, I'm AAA drummer andacoustic guitar and electric
guitar player who had to becomea proficient keyboard player and
also a proficient person withsynths and samplers so that I
could really do what this jobwas. I mean, and again, I want
(23:11):
both of you to know, I had nointerest whatsoever in being a
TV and film composer,especially, 1 who had to play
everything themselves, you know.
But it was really about the factthat I needed to make a good
living and the opportunitieswere given to me and I ran with
them.
Rachel (23:29):
Yeah. And And you're good at it. Yeah. I mean, I feel
like
a lot of people end up in unusual places in their
profession that way just sort ofchasing the rabbit hole of,
okay. Here's my nextopportunity. And then maybe
sometimes you get so far downwhere you're like, you know
what? Maybe I didn't love thisdirection, which I guess you did
in 2001. And then Right.
(23:49):
You know, do
Matt (23:49):
You know, I I had I had done it for so long, so
intensely on my own, from 85till 2, 001 that I was so done.
Rachel (24:00):
Yeah. Especially if it's, like, in your office, in
your house. Like, you neverYeah.
Matt (24:03):
I mean, but I mean, it it's analogous to, a fastball
major league fastball pitcher,hitting a certain age and
realizing they don't have theirfastball anymore. Yeah. And I'm
like, you know what? I wanna goback to making records. You
know?
So
Rachel (24:19):
Yeah. And I'm I feel like
you hit a really good moment in television.
Matt (24:24):
I I think I did. Yeah.
Rachel (24:26):
Yeah. I mean, obviously, we love nineties TV. That's
pretty much all we do.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Just a good moment for for synthesizer score
for kind of that I don't know.The the thing we love about
Forever Night is that kind of,like, wild west. Like, there's
obviously a bunch of people wholove this show, who are all
working on it, and not thismajor studio where it's just a
(24:47):
sea of people who are allcontributing.
Alright. So your favoriteepisode to score or maybe at
this point, just an episode thatstood out so much, you still
remember it?
Matt (24:57):
You know what? Here's the thing, Rachel and Matt, III have
to tell you that I did so muchwork in those years that my
memory of each episode is verycloudy because, literally, we're
talking 3 out 3 days a week.
Rachel (25:16):
Yeah.
Matt (25:17):
I would write that score and record it and play all the
instruments and go to the nextshow or whatever series I was
doing, and it just it'simpossible to remember, But
there were highlights, ofcourse, you know.
Rachel (25:28):
Mhmm.
Matt (25:28):
I remember once 1 piece of score I wrote for an episode
called Avenging Angel. And Iremember I really loved it
because it was just a 3 minutepiece, and I begged them to turn
the sound effects off when theymixed it, and just make it a
surreal musical and visualmoment. So I love that. I have
very strong memories of, thelast episode because there was
(25:54):
so much emotion. Emotion fromthe team, and by the way, again,
we were all we became a greatteam of people.
I would go to the set all thetime, and we would hang and have
a lovely, lovely life, as teammembers together. And, and that
was unusual because a lot of theTV series I did, I would never
(26:15):
spend any time on on the set.But with Forever Night and
Friday 13th series, I was on theset a lot. And, and we really
became a great team on both ofthose series. But I remember
last night, which was the lastepisode, first of all, I
remember the pressure that I hadto write the final score piece,
(26:36):
which was, I guess, the death ofNick.
Rachel (26:39):
Yeah. And Allegedly.
Matt (26:41):
You know, allegedly. Well, we were hoping it was gonna be
allegedly, but apparently itwas, you know. Because in at
that point, we were thinking, ohmy god, you know, it'll be a
dream sequence and we'll comeback next season or something.
Rachel (26:53):
Yeah.
Matt (26:54):
But it never did. So, the pressure that I had on myself
was a lot, but I rememberwriting the last cue and really
being proud of it. Like, reallysaying, you know, I because I
think I suck on so many levelscompared compared to the great
TV and film composers like JohnWilliams and, you know, Jerry
Goldsmith and Dave Gruzin and,you know, Thomas Newman and all
(27:18):
these you know, I'm nothing. I'mjust a I'm just a period on a
page, you know. But I felt likeI did a really good job for the
people I worked for.
But I felt like that last cue onon last night was 1 of my best
cues. Yeah.
Rachel (27:37):
Yeah. I think Ashes to Ashes in last night are some of
my favorite episodes. So
Matt (27:41):
Ashes had that had a lot of music. Yeah.
Rachel (27:43):
Yeah. Yeah. That was a that's 1 of my favorite
episodes. I was so excited whenwe got Matt had no idea how it
was going to end. I managed tokeep it a secret for 2 years.
Matt (27:52):
See, I I don't I don't remember a thing about the
episode, but I remember therewas a lot of music.
Rachel (27:58):
Ironically, my next question is about avenging
angel, so that's really funny. Iwas like, Avenging Angel is the
the scene you're talking aboutis close to the end, and it's
where he's driving.
Matt (28:08):
Correct.
Rachel (28:08):
And we just get the music because it's this moment
where he's kind of lettingsomeone
Matt (28:13):
Yes.
Rachel (28:13):
Do something illegal. Yes. And we talk about it quite
a bit in the episode that we didon Avenging Angel. But what it
led me to ask was how muchcreative control did you have
over over the score and
Matt (28:28):
Well, I I think 1 of the nice things, Rachel, is that
when you are the composer for along period of time on a series,
once the series gets going, theyreally just let you do what you
do. And and and, they trust youbecause, you know, they've liked
what you've done. And after awhile, you've sort of set a
(28:51):
style instead of thing. And and,and so once Forever Knight went
into the 3rd or 4th episode, no1 listened to a thing I did
until it was mixed on the floor.So I had complete, creative
control.
Rachel (29:06):
Well, I'm sure that was reassuring. Like, oh, no, no,
Fred, you got this. It's okay.
Matt (29:10):
Well, but that but that's what we would do. You know, when
when I would do long termseries, once you've got, you
know, or not or just any series,once you got past the second or
third episode, everyone was busyand they would just say, hey, go
do your thing, you know. Andand, you know, maybe
occasionally someone would calland say, hey, you know, they
wanna change that 1 queue, butthat, you know, on forever night
(29:31):
that never happened, you know.
Rachel (29:33):
So you kinda answered this already, but I'm gonna ask
it anyway. Do you still keep intouch with anyone from the show?
Matt (29:39):
Well, Jim is still a Facebook friend, although I
haven't spoken to Jim probablyin about 4 or 5 years, but we
did keep up a great friendshipup until probably a few years
before COVID. Same thing withGare. I I always loved hanging
with him in later years, but Ihaven't spoken to him in about 5
years as well. And as far as therest of the team and and actors,
(30:07):
you know, some of their Facebookfriends of mine and we keep in
touch a little bit. But, I wouldsay, you know, at the moment,
no.
Not not not keeping in closetouch.
Rachel (30:17):
Yeah. I mean, it's been 30 years. So
Matt (30:20):
But, you know, but I really literally I I miss them.
I love them. They're great.
Rachel (30:24):
We just met Gar, last year. We went up to Stratford
and saw a play that he was inYep. And waited outside the
door. I lost my mind, and Idon't actually remember what I
said to him, but Matt was there,and he, he says that we did
okay. Well like, I have apodcast.
(30:45):
Like, it was awful, but it'sfine. It's fine.
Matt (30:47):
Well, he's he's just a great guy.
Rachel (30:49):
Yeah. He was very nice. And we actually met Kathy. We
drove down to Orlando and sawher at a convention in
Matt (30:55):
Kathy Disher?
Rachel (30:56):
Yeah. Catherine Disher. Doing? She was very, very
lovely. Like, I really enjoyedmeeting her, and she lives in
Toronto now.
And she's done so much work forthe Hallmark Channel, and I'm
just I, like, I love to seepeople stay successful. And we
just met John John Kapiolos inNew Jersey. So we've we've been
on a forever night tour. Ihaven't looked through.
Matt (31:17):
John and I got along famously. I loved, Nigel. Nigel
was great fun. He was terrificto to to hang with. I loved them
all.
I'm gonna say, I mean, it reallywas that's what I'm saying. I
probably had more it was more ofa positive experience on that
series than any series I everdid, and, and I just, I just
(31:39):
loved I loved being appreciatedby them, and I appreciated them
so much.
Rachel (31:47):
So I was poking around, and I found an interview from
1997 that you did. And I found 1line really interesting where
you're talking about how therewas a complete lack of
merchandise for the show, likemerchandise and advertising. And
so my question was, if you couldhave 1 piece like, if you could
have them make 1 piece ofmerchandise from the show, what
(32:08):
would it be?
Matt (32:10):
Oh, I don't I I don't even know. No. I don't know. I have
to think about you know, I've II actually, you know, sort of I
have a fund for my kids becauseeven though they're 40 and 37,
my daughter lives in LA now withher 2 kids and her husband and,
you know, frankly, you know,they can use some extra money so
(32:32):
I constantly sell off stuff andgive it to them. And I I had
some merch, man.
I had well, I had crewmerchandise.
Rachel (32:39):
Yeah.
Matt (32:40):
Like, I had, you know, jackets and hats and t shirts
and sweatshirts and that kind ofstuff. So I I, you know but I
know I I don't need anything anddidn't I can't think of it.
Rachel (32:51):
Well, I just thought it'd be fun to ask.
Yeah. No.
Matt (32:54):
I'm it's a good question. Yeah.
Rachel (32:56):
Rachel's wearing a shirt she designed.
My CERK. You probably can't see it. Home of the
Nightcrawler.
Matt (33:03):
Yeah. That's the radio station. Yeah.
Rachel (33:05):
Yeah. We have some some this isn't a plug for my
merchandise, but we do havesome.
Matt (33:09):
And, obviously, you've seen the blooper reels and
everything. Right? So yeah.
Rachel (33:12):
Yeah. Yeah. You can find them online. So I've I've seen a
couple. Yeah.
Yeah. You've moved on and donesome other stuff, including for
Disney. What was it like workingfor Disney?
Matt (33:23):
Well, I didn't work for Disney as a TV and film
composer. Well, that's not true.I did a series in 2, 000, before
I left, scoring called in aheartbeat for the Disney
Channel. It was a terribleseries. I hated it.
And it'll never be seen again.It was just a piece of Dreck.
(33:45):
You know, I had, before I leftTV and film score, I had gotten
a call, from my friend JayLandry, who I'd worked with
before in record in the recordside of things. And he was now
the head of Disney's, recordlabel for children. And he said,
would you do an instrumentallullaby album for Disney
(34:07):
records?
And I was like, of course. Youknow? I'll squeeze it in, and I
and I took well known Disneysongs as well as some other
songs and turned them into very,very, very, you know, just
almost meditative versions,piano and strings, as an album
to put little children to bed.And it was called the Disney
(34:29):
Lullaby album, and it sold overa 1000000 copies so far.
Rachel (34:32):
Wow.
Matt (34:34):
And so I became Disney's most, successful instrumental
lullaby artist. I did I did 6different albums for Disney for
lullabies. But then in, 20002006, I got an offer to run the
label as the a and r person forWalt Disney records. And so for
(34:56):
a year and a half, I did run thelabel in Burbank and moved there
and did that, as well as I didmany other albums for Disney of
all different kinds of things.But again, this was all my this
is post scoring.
I mean, I didn't
Rachel (35:11):
go back. Yeah.
Matt (35:12):
I never went back to film scoring after that, after 90
after about 2, 001. Yeah.
Rachel (35:17):
You're just done?
Matt (35:19):
Yeah. I mean, it was really I I walked away going, I
love making records. I lovebeing with other people and
working as a team. And I haddecided after 16, 17 years of
lonely deadlines, doingeverything myself that, I was
burnt to a crisp.
Rachel (35:40):
Yeah. So what do you if we there was a reboot or a
reimagining of forever night,what do you think that would
look like?
Matt (35:50):
Well, I mean, boy, that's a great question. I mean, are
you thinking maybe that the samepeople are in it, but they play
older characters, or are yousaying new people?
Rachel (35:59):
Well, my joke is always that Garrett comes back and
plays Lacroix, and then we get ayoung guy for the
the Nick character.
Matt (36:06):
Well, I mean I mean, that would be a good way to look at
it. I mean, yeah, that thatmaybe, that maybe, you know, Ger
does become sort of the, youknow, the grandfather vampire.
And and and either he leads themor he tries to be destructive.
And, and then we have new a newNick, so to speak.
Rachel (36:26):
Yeah. I mean, that's the end of my questions for you.
Was, really, my last 1 was, inthe interview from 1997, you
said you thought last night wasa good ending for the show. 30
years on, do you still feel thesame way?
Matt (36:39):
Well, you know, in retrospect, I think it's a great
ending for the show because itnever came never came back, so
we
Rachel (36:48):
because it is the Yeah.
Matt (36:49):
We we sort of we put the stake in the heart a lot
Rachel (36:51):
of closure.
Matt (36:52):
Speak, and and it was a pretty severe stake in the
heart. So, I would havepreferred it not to have been
that way. Sure.
Rachel (37:00):
Well, thank you, Fred, for coming and talking to us.
Matt (37:02):
Oh my god. It's my pleasure. I mean, I I get such a
kick out of, even rememberingthis stuff. It was such a great
time.
Rachel (37:09):
Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's still sticking around
because somebody made a podcastabout it. We did.
Us. Just us. Exactly.
Matt (37:17):
No. I'm you know what, I'm I'm very, it means it means a
lot to me that that, thisparticular show gets, has such
loyal fans and and people whohave have, have such a great
attachment to it. Yeah.
Rachel (37:33):
I just feel like, I wish whoever owned the rights would
give it some love. Like, itfeels like an abandoned
property, and I hate that forit.
Matt (37:42):
Yeah.
Rachel (37:43):
Like, I wish we could get an HD release or, you know,
literally any like, a DVD wecould buy would be great.
Or even just streaming season 3.
Matt (37:51):
Yeah. Well, so so the DVDs aren't available anymore?
Rachel (37:54):
No. The ones that Sony Tri Star released were
discontinued, and there's 1company that releases, like, a
full box set, Mill Creek, Ithink.
Yeah, man.
And they're kind of the, like, all where all TV shows go
to die, ones where, like,they're all in cardboard and,
anyway. So it's just You know,
Matt (38:12):
III think that I think you're right. You know, sadly,
we I think we really were anorphan, on many levels. But you
never know. I mean, again, therethere's, you know, there's
there's always a possibilitythat they'll realize they had
some some serious mojo on thisshow, and and and they'll
they'll show it some love.
Rachel (38:33):
Yeah. That would be nice because I feel like this is a
thing that didn't get doneagain. Yeah. Like, forever night
didn't get done. Like, a lot ofTV shows, you know, they pop up
cyclically, you know, every 15years.
Oh, that's like that up of thatTV show.
Matt (38:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (38:46):
And a lot of people reference Angel or Moonlight,
but I I don't think they're thesame. Like, I don't lump them
together. It feels like forevernight's its own thing.
Matt (38:54):
I think we were I think we had a very unique show, and I
think it was, it you know,there's no question. It was a
cult item, but I think it had alot of heart and a a lot of, it
was a soulful show.
Rachel (39:10):
Yeah. I we well, we heartily agree. So thank you
again, Fred, for coming on. Wewon't, but I think we've taken
40 minutes of your time. So
Matt (39:18):
I'm so glad to have done it. I really I get such a kick
out of it. Thank you.
Rachel (39:22):
You're welcome. And, thank you so much for the tapes.
I'm, like, super excited towatch all of them.
Matt (39:27):
I'm I'm delighted someone who would be able to get a kick
out of them got them.
Rachel (39:31):
I did have a question about them. Some of them were
labeled as the Glen Warrenversion?
Matt (39:35):
Yes.
Rachel (39:35):
What does that mean?
Matt (39:36):
Glen Warren was the Canadian production company.
Rachel (39:39):
Oh, okay.
Matt (39:40):
Actually, it was the Canadian production facility.
Rachel (39:44):
Okay.
Matt (39:46):
And Glenn Warren productions had a a channel
called the CFTO and CTV inCanada. So Okay. So they ran
forever night, but I think it'sa longer episode.
Rachel (39:56):
Okay. Yeah. The crime time after prime time.
Matt (39:59):
Yeah. See, I I do remember. See, you're make
you're making you're making meremember things. We did we did I
did have to add a couple ofextra scenes of music for the
Canadian versions.
Rachel (40:11):
Yeah. I think they were, like, 5 ish minutes longer.
Matt (40:13):
Like, 4, like, 4 minutes longer. Yeah.
Rachel (40:15):
Yeah. Because when we were watching it through with
Matt, there's a lot of thosescenes where, like, Nick appears
to have gone back to his hishouse, and he's in his satin
pajamas, but he's, like, onduty. Yeah. And it's the, like,
0 minutes that they just, like,fluffed in. I love it.
Matt (40:32):
But that's that's the thing. When I was looking
through the stuff that hebrought me, I was, like, oh,
Glenn Warr so these were theCanadian versions. They were
longer. Yeah. That's
Rachel (40:40):
right. Yeah.
Matt (40:40):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel (40:42):
Yeah. Let's
Matt (40:43):
Anyway, those were they they were very creative times. I
I I'm I'm very fortunate to havehad the run on that show. Really
do. I feel very fortunate.
Rachel (40:52):
Well, we'll
let you go, Fred, so you can have a good evening. I guess
it's probably about 8 there now.
Matt (40:57):
It's heading towards 8. Yeah.
Rachel (40:58):
Yeah. So we have to go rescue my kids there over at
grandma's. So Alright.
Matt (41:02):
Well, listen. I great to meet you both. And, and again,
I'm very, very grateful that,you know, people love the show,
really.
Rachel (41:10):
Oh, thank you. Yeah. And we're glad you made it so that
we can watch it.
Matt (41:14):
My pleasure.
Rachel (41:15):
Oh, I
was gonna watch there's 1 episode, Dying for Fame. I'm
sorry. You were done and nothearing I'm
not done. Okay. Carry
on. There's 1 episode called dying for fame, and it's
the, like, rock star 1. It's inseason 1, and it's played like a
music video.
Like a music video. Yeah. Kind of thing.
I know you were involved in, like, the writing and
filming of that, but, like
Matt (41:36):
Yes.
Rachel (41:37):
Why?
Matt (41:42):
Why was I involved?
Rachel (41:43):
No. No.
I mean, like, why
why does this episode exist? Like, I I like it just
fine, but it's the most it's theoddest episode out of all of
them. It doesn't have a realflashback. He has
Matt (41:52):
a real life. To watch it. Again, you know, you're talking
about things I did 30 was it 30years now?
Rachel (41:58):
Yeah. Well, you'll watch it, and you'll be like, oh,
okay. And it's kind of like thebackstory for all of the pop
music that's in The Ravenbecause Yeah. Introduces the
soundtrack.
Matt (42:07):
Having to go to the shoots, to oversee the the stuff
with the performance stuff. Waswasn't that the 1 that had Dark
Side of the Glass?
Rachel (42:18):
Yeah. It's the 1 where it's the singer, and she's
written, like, fan kill orsomething. And so it's a huge
controversy. And so they, ofcourse, they have to go do
security even though they'rehomicide detectives, but it's
fine.
Matt (42:29):
Right.
Rachel (42:29):
And, they it's it's just an I don't know. It's a I like
season 1 because it feels soexperimental, and that 1 feels
like the most experimental ofall the episodes. So I just
like, every time I watch it, I'mlike, I wanna talk to whoever
made these decisions so I knowhow we got here.
Matt (42:48):
Yeah. I mean, I just you know, listen. I think when you
do, an episodic series, youknow, people are constantly
coming up with any idea theypossibly can. And, I just
remember that I was involved ina lot of the shooting of that,
and, and I remember having towrite Dark Side of the Glass for
a montage or something. And,
Rachel (43:07):
Yeah. Because he
Matt (43:07):
And, actually, that might that might be my favorite song
of the batch. You know?
Rachel (43:12):
It's a good song. And it gets it gets really showcased in
that episode because instead ofhaving a real flashback, we have
these scenes where he's, like,watching a life on on, like, CRT
TVs. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt (43:25):
Yeah. I I remember saying to myself, I think we did a
really good song here. Yeah.
Rachel (43:29):
Yeah. I think that's a good episode. I just Yeah. I
always wonder about that. Idon't know because it's so
different than all the others.
Because season 3 gets weird, butit's weird in, like, a, okay. We
were trying to be Safeway. Thiswas in, like, a, oh, let's do
something cool way.
Matt (43:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Was that the first season? I forget.
Rachel (43:46):
Yeah. That's season 1. Because is dead, but he shows up
in that flashback. Yeah. Becausehe's dead
Matt (43:55):
from season 1. I would need you to remind me of
everything at this point.
Rachel (43:59):
Well, it's cool. I know it. It's fine.
Matt (44:01):
Rich, you know, honestly, I've been in so many so many
hours of television score.
Rachel (44:06):
And Oh, I'm sure they all just blend.
Matt (44:09):
Yeah. There's not you know, I'm cons constantly being
written to by fans saying,remember in episode 10 of Friday
13th when when so and so didthat? I'm like, I I don't even
know what you're talking about.
Rachel (44:23):
You know?
Matt (44:24):
I have no idea. I mean, there might be, like, 5 scenes
out of 77 episodes that Iremember. You know? Everything
else was just, like, you know,the deadlines were psychotic.
Rachel (44:33):
Right. I'm sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it's streaming on the Roku channel if you wanna
watch it.
Matt (44:40):
What is?
Rachel (44:41):
Forever night.
Matt (44:42):
It is?
Rachel (44:43):
Yeah. Only season 1 and 2. Season 3 is a different
rights holder, so you can neverfind it. But season 1 is the
stream. Wow.
So
Matt (44:50):
what do you mean it's a different what do you mean it's
a different rights holder?
Rachel (44:53):
So season 1 and season 2 are owned by 1 company, and then
season 3 is independent. So youcan buy all 3 seasons on Apple,
but you can only stream season 1and 2.
Matt (45:03):
Okay.
Rachel (45:04):
Yeah.
Matt (45:05):
Well, I again, III love the fact that people still love
the show. It's great.
Rachel (45:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. There's a surprisingly lively, fan
community still, like Facebookgroups and stuff. Yeah. The
listserv is still running.
Yeah. The email listserv is still running.
Matt (45:21):
What happened to Deb? What happened to Deb DeShane?
Rachel (45:24):
We Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah. Yeah.
Really. Like, the monsters themonsters madness and mayhem guy,
who I think you were on hispodcast. He just had Gare on,
and he asked him about Deb, andhe didn't know. And he asked
Nigel, and Nigel didn't know.
Matt (45:44):
Really?
Rachel (45:45):
Yeah. So she just disappeared.
Matt (45:47):
Well, she was really good in that show.
Rachel (45:49):
I know. It was a shame that she
A travesty.
A travesty that she left.
Matt (45:55):
I'm I'm amazed. I would have thought she would have
continued. You know, I knowwe're just sort of shooting the
shit here. I didn't love, youknow, the Ben Bass stuff. No,
Rachel (46:08):
no, we're I
Matt (46:09):
thought that was really, I thought that was their, you
know, and I remember Gare, like,not really being thrilled, you
know, because it was sort oflike, oh, now you have to have
another hunky guy, you know.
Rachel (46:19):
Yeah. No. We're not kind to Ben Bass.
Matt (46:23):
Yeah. I so I
Rachel (46:24):
I mean, we're not kind to Vashon. Like, Ben Bass is,
I'm sure, a fine person, butwe're not trying to Vashon. Fine
person, but
Fred (46:30):
I Yeah. But I remember saying, I don't love this
character that much and and and,you know, but but I, you know,
again, but I still was had sucha good time that, you know. You
have to remember, when I say Ihad a good time, I worked so
hard and so relentlessly, and Iwas so well appreciated by these
people and considered them to begreat, friends and great,
(46:52):
associates that it made the hardwork great.
Rachel (46:55):
Yeah. It didn't you didn't hate all the long hours.
Matt (46:59):
I was really lucky. Yeah.
Rachel (47:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
I get that. That makes a lot of sense. Alright. Now we
will let you go.
Fred (47:08):
Have a wonderful night, and I thank you guys so much.
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