Forever Knight (Season 3 Ep 19) - "Jane Doe" - Come in 81 Kilo: A Forever Knight Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bad Guy (00:00):
Evil is not extraordinary. It's been now

(00:06):
commonplace, and it'll make anappearance in the least likely
of places. I believe dwellingwithin each and every one of us
is god and Satan. And the rightconditions are met, it's
possible for the sanest personto commit the most heinous
crime. Speak for you, sir.

Rachel (00:24):
Hi. I'm Rachel.

Matt (00:25):
And I'm Matt.

Rachel (00:27):
And this is Come in 81 kilo.

Matt (00:30):
A forever night podcast.

Rachel (01:22):
See, now that you told me it's written on there, I'm
never gonna remember offhandedever again. I'm gonna have to
read it all now. That's howtransactional money. Yeah.
That's how it works.
Alright. Welcome back, friends.

Matt (01:38):
Let's do it.

Rachel (01:39):
You're just ready to go with this? Oh my god. This is
another it's an episode is whatit is. Season 3, episode 19,
Jane Doe.

Matt (01:51):
We're only escalating the we got canceled. We don't care
what our episodes are aboutanymore.

Rachel (01:58):
Nor do we care, like, oh, you guys we're not allowed
to show a dead body. What areyou gonna do, cancel us? What
the what what just what happenedin this episode? Yeah. This is
really a further escalation ofour, oh, we don't need to play
it safe anymore.

(02:18):
So what can we do? And I have toadmit that Reese is a little bit
he he's a little bit fallen idlestill. He's still he feels a
little irrational, but it feelsmore justified. He's very
defeatist in this episode, butit feels like this is probably a
man who, through his entirecareer, has had to fight to be

(02:42):
seen as a legitimate cop.

Matt (02:44):
Yeah. Yeah. I think Reese is traumatized has been
traumatized by this guy

Rachel (02:50):
Yeah.

Matt (02:51):
Specifically for his entire career.

Rachel (02:54):
Yeah. And, oh, look. It's all happening again. And so
it's got to be like, oh my god.I can't I can't even handle
this.
And, oh, this one is gonna belook, we are gonna do our level
best to discuss this through thelens of what the show is trying

(03:17):
to say and not include the widerscope of the complicated,
tragic, horrific state of theway that people of color and law
enforcement have related to eachother, historically since the

(03:38):
dawn of since the dawn of thethe 2 of these things. Like,
since these two things existedtogether, this has been a
problem. And, this is not theforum for us to solve anything
or discuss anything about that.We are discussing the television
show forever night. And justbecause they chose to discuss

(04:00):
this, I don't feel like 2 whitepeople in a room really get to
weigh in on this.

Matt (04:08):
So think we have anything to add to that conversation.

Rachel (04:11):
Right. So what we're going to do is discuss this
particular episode and the waythat things are portrayed in
this particular episode and theway that Reese is moving through
the system that is given to usthrough the lens of forever
night. And I feel like that'sthe best way for us to tackle
this. Yeah. And I love that thelast, like, 4 episodes I've had

(04:34):
to issue a disclaimer at thebeginning.
And guess what y'all? There'sgonna be one next time too. Oh,
boy. Alright. Like I said, thisis forever night season 3
episode 19, Jane Doe.
So we open on this car travelingthrough the woods and it stops,

(04:57):
and it pulls a body from thetrunk. And they, whoever this
person is, the driver, hangs thebody up in a tree and then
shoots the body with a shotgunmultiple times and then drives
off. And that is our intro.

Matt (05:16):
Cold intro.

Rachel (05:17):
And here's the part of the episode where I give you
something to go and look at thatactually gives you real life
context on what's happening.Just like it's okay to not be
okay is a great k drama aboutpeople with intellectual
differences. If you are curiousabout the history of this type
of systemic racism in the UnitedStates and to a certain extent,

(05:42):
Canada, I encourage you to lookup the National Memorial For
Peace and Justice, which islocated in Montgomery, Alabama,
and they have a very powerfulmemorial to the victims of, what
is referred to as lynching,which is when, people of color
were hung, which is what theyare, or lynched, which is what

(06:04):
they're talking about in thebeginning here, which is why
this person is hung up in thetree. And as someone who lives
in the Southern United States,this is a very present and real
and painful part of our history.And to see it referenced in this

(06:25):
show is like, oh my God, we aregoing there.
Okay. Here we go. But go look upthat memorial. It is beautiful.
I would love to someday see itin person.
It's actually part of a largermemorial. But anyway, that's our

(06:47):
intro. That's how we start thisepisode. And we don't know right
away that this person that gothung up in the tree is a black
victim, but we find out prettyquickly. So Yes.
God. Because we come back andReese is watching an interview
on TV And the lady who isinterview the interviewer, the

(07:10):
talk show host

Matt (07:11):
Yeah.

Rachel (07:12):
Yeah. She's like, okay. Let me read this excerpt from
this book, which can we pausefor a moment and talk about how
the cover design for this bookis the most nineties cover
design I have ever seen in
my entire fucking life.
It's like a who's who of nineties design aesthetics. It's
got the I was clipped out of thenewspaper letter font. It's got

(07:35):
it's like at an angle. It's gotit's just it's real wild.

Matt (07:39):
So she reads this thing.

Rachel (07:41):
Yeah. She reads it, and it's like, I was transformed the
instant I first killed. I becameand will be forever in the eyes
of all, a murderer. And thiswoman is interviewing a guy
named Jordan Manning, who wrotethis book called The Killing
Mind, and she refers to it asthe most controversial book in
recent years. And it was writtenby him when he was in prison for

(08:07):
manslaughter.
So this guy is a convictedmurderer. He wrote a book about
a murderer, and the publisherpublished it.

Matt (08:18):
But it's a work of fiction Mhmm. Ostensibly

Rachel (08:21):
Yeah.

Matt (08:22):
About a serial killer.

Rachel (08:24):
Written in poet poem form. Yes. I gotta be honest.
This kind of sounds likedriving. It just sounds like,
nails on a chalkboard.
Like, I can't imagine reading afirst person account about a
serial killer in poet form, likein rhyme, in rhyme, in iambic
pentameter. I just can't. Butapparently it's really popular

(08:46):
because, Lacroix later refers tohim as the man who got rich
writing greeting cards for thedevil.

Matt (08:54):
Yeah. Because, of course, Lacroix has read this book.

Rachel (08:56):
I mean, he was like the killing mind. Me? This is about
me? And so he checked on itanyway. But Reese is watching
this interview, because we zoomout at this point to see that
Reese is watching it.
And the interviewer iscontinuing, and she says, how
much of you is in this book? Andthe guy's like, well, you know,
every novelist enriches hischaracters with his own life

(09:18):
experience, which is not ananswer, but is kind of an
answer. And the interviewer,what I love, she says

Matt (09:27):
It's an answer for Reese.

Rachel (09:28):
Yeah. It is.

Matt (09:29):
To read between the lines.

Rachel (09:30):
Right.

Matt (09:31):
But nothing that would hold up in court.

Rachel (09:34):
It's I'm not going there. Okay. So the interview
said interviewer says, she readthis book, and it's a first
person account about a murderspree told by a poetry spouting
psychopath. She she says, it'sdegenerative. It's amoral.
It's obscene. Did you write itfor your for your buddies in

(09:56):
cell block 11?
You know, I read this book, and I'll be right up front
with you. Okay? It's a fictionalfirst person account of a serial
murder spree told by a poetryspouting psychopath. It's
degenerate. It's amoral.
Who's your audience for thisbook anyway? I mean, did you
write it for your buddies incell block 11?
And I don't think we linger on how disrespectful this
interviewer is Right. Longenough.

Matt (10:19):
He he very graciously moves past the implied insult
Yeah. From the interview host.

Rachel (10:25):
Well, no. He turns to the camera and just stops
addressing her and startsaddressing the camera.

Matt (10:30):
Oh, really?

Rachel (10:30):
Yeah.

Matt (10:31):
Yeah. I guess he's good at just bottling things up.

Rachel (10:36):
Well, he's a psychopath. Yeah. Yeah. But the fact that
she's Or is

Matt (10:40):
he a sociopath?

Rachel (10:42):
No. I don't think he can turn it. Oh, maybe. He turned it
on enough to be able to get apublishing

Matt (10:47):
copy. Usually aren't meticulous.

Rachel (10:50):
Oh, okay. So then he's a sociopath.

Matt (10:51):
Because they can't.

Rachel (10:52):
So she got it wrong. It's a poetry spouting psycho or
sociopath.

Matt (10:56):
Maybe the book is about a psychopath.

Rachel (10:58):
Well, just anyway, like, the fact

Matt (11:01):
that she's on like

Rachel (11:02):
the fact that she's on public television

Matt (11:05):
Yeah.

Rachel (11:05):
And she's interviewing this guy probably for a
promotional spot. Spot. Like,probably the publisher got him
on here so that he could getsome publicity. And she's like,
this is some bullshit. What thefuck is this?
I can't believe I just readthis. I feel like I need to
scour my brain. I I like, Ican't get it out. What the fuck
did I just read? And he's like,okay.
So he turns and looks directlyat the screen, and this is when

(11:28):
he's like, evil is notextraordinary. It's banal
commonplace, and it'll make anappearance in the most unlikely
of places. There's God and thedevil in all of us. There's 2
wolves in all of us. And if theright conditions are met, it's
possible for the sanest personto commit the most heinous
crime.
And during all this, Reese getsa phone call, and he just picks

(11:48):
the phone up and goes, I'm on myway. Like, did anybody say
anything, or did he just go, I'mon my way and hang up? And then
he's like, shit. I don't knowwhere I'm going.

Matt (11:59):
I didn't get the address, and I don't have caller ID.

Rachel (12:03):
Star 69 calls me back.
So then Reese actually says to the TV, addresses the
TV, and he goes, speak foryourself. Like, not everybody
will commit a crime when giventhe opportunity. Actually, most
people will. There's some reallycool sociological studies about
that, like the one where you canpush the button to shock your,

(12:26):
shock your you think you'reshocking somebody in the other
room?

Matt (12:29):
Yeah.

Rachel (12:29):
And as long as someone in authority tells you to do it,
most people will keep doing iteven if they can hear the
screams of pain from the otherroom.

Matt (12:36):
Yeah. What's that? The Milhouse? I think it starts with
an m.

Rachel (12:42):
That's the he's like one sociology guy who did a whole he
did the 6 degrees of separation.He did the one where people
lined up around a building, andthey weren't actually waiting in
line for anything and somepeople stood in line for hours
not even knowing what they werewaiting for. Or he had a guy
stand on the corner and look upat the sky to see how many

(13:03):
people would look up?

Matt (13:04):
Yes. It's the Stanford Prison Experiment. We don't need
to talk about it here. It wasthem. Doctor Philip g Zimbardo,
but it's one of many in a wholeclass of psychology experiments,
sociological, like, socialpressure

Rachel (13:23):
Yeah.

Matt (13:24):
Experiments that that present a lot of
counterintuitive patterns ofhuman behavior

Rachel (13:34):
Yeah.

Matt (13:34):
That I think everybody should be aware of for the sake
of just put it in your toolboxas a reference for, oh, this is
a bias I did not know existed.

Rachel (13:46):
And I probably have.

Matt (13:48):
And, probably, I have it.

Rachel (13:50):
Yeah.

Matt (13:50):
And and knowing about it is the first step in, like,
countering it.

Rachel (13:56):
Knowing about a trap is the first step in avoiding it?
Yes. Yeah. There's yeah. It'skinda like when we talked to
George Paxonos.
So on Strange and Beautiful BookClub, we interviewed this
renowned neuroscientist, whichsounds really fancy, and it is
really fancy. And we did it, andI can't believe we did. But he
was talking about how, like,free will is effectively an

(14:17):
illusion because we are simply aset of instincts and prejudices
and that that guides ourbehavior. And it's just that we
are so cognitively removed fromour own decision making process
that we think we think it's freeand inspired by our own agency.
But in reality rational agentsand In reality, we're

(14:38):
effectively not and that a lotof what we do is really just
training.
And that makes a lot of sense.It doesn't excuse anything. It
doesn't get anybody out ofanything, but it does give you a
context, like a frame ofreference for people's actions.
Like, Like, when we look back atpast atrocities and we're like,
wow. A lot of peopleparticipated in that.
Why would they? And it's like,well, honestly, for a lot of

(15:00):
people, they wouldn't have evennoticed.

Matt (15:03):
Right. They were raised from birth where this is the
normal thing.

Rachel (15:06):
Right. And it's like, you learn when you're thinking
about your own thinking,metacognition. You know, the
first thought is usually yourupbringing or your training, how
you have been taught to perceivethe world, and you can kind of
disregard it. And then thesecond thought is, like, who
you've taught yourself to be.

Matt (15:26):
Yeah. There's a good book that summarizes a lot of those
ideas called Thinking Fast andSlow.

Rachel (15:32):
Yeah. And, I mean, it's something to think about because
we like to think that we'rebetter and we like to think that
we're, highly evolved and, youknow, it's worth examining our
own thoughts and ideas andbiases and figuring out how we
got here because I don't knowwhy we're not talking about the
episode anymore. So back to it.

Matt (15:55):
Babe, maybe, subconsciously, you maybe don't
want to talk about this episode?

Rachel (16:02):
I do. I do wanna talk about this episode. I do. I
wanna talk about this episode ina way that makes it feel like
I'm just talking about theepisode and that I'm encouraging
people to think about the thingsthat are happening in this
episode, but that I'm notspeaking for anyone.

Matt (16:15):
But we're tangential conversationalists. So

Rachel (16:18):
I mean yeah. I mean, that's why we have a podcast.
Give us a topic, and we can justfucking go. So this I think
that's the point of these lastfew episodes is to inspire
conversation. And so bravo.
It inspires conversation. Andwhat actually, Reese gets that
phone call, and then he does thespeak for yourself, turns his TV

(16:39):
off, and then we go to themorgue because for some reason,
Reese has been called to themorgue. We're not gonna examine
this. It doesn't really matter.He just needed to be part of the
discussion, so here he is.
And Natalie and Tracy and Nickand Reese are all standing
around the autopsy table. AndNatalie goes, this isn't going
to be pleasant. And Nick goes,when is it ever? She actually

(17:00):
tells him, mask up. This isn'tgonna be pleasant.
I watch a lot of doctor gmedical examiner, and she
actually has an entirelyseparate room for, decomposing
bodies, like bodies that havebeen found already deep in
decomposition, and it's like youcan clean it more effectively.
So it's interesting that thisbody, which, by the way, if it

(17:22):
was hanging in a tree for 3 to 4weeks, would not have this much
flesh still on it. Like Right.It's fine.

Matt (17:28):
Well, if you it was it was wrapped in, like, heavy plastic
sheeting.

Rachel (17:34):
No. He took all that off.

Matt (17:35):
Oh, he took it off?

Rachel (17:36):
Yeah. All she is is, like, wearing her coat.

Matt (17:38):
Oh, okay.

Rachel (17:39):
Yeah. And it has

Matt (17:41):
that part.

Rachel (17:41):
In the woods

Matt (17:43):
Right.

Rachel (17:43):
In an isolated area for 3 to 4 weeks. And they do
mention that they can't getfingerprints because it's too
far gone. Because actually yourskin on your hands are the is
the first thing to fall off.It's called gloving, which is
really fascinating, by the way.

Matt (17:57):
Gloving?

Rachel (17:59):
Gloving because it ends up looking like a glove.

Matt (18:01):
Oh, okay.

Rachel (18:02):
Because it separates.

Matt (18:03):
Think is when it comes off.

Rachel (18:05):
Yeah. It sluffs off. Yeah. I love the word sluff.
Sluff's off.
I'm done. I'm done. I don't knowthat they would I don't know
that they would have also beenable to see needle marks in her
skin.

Matt (18:20):
That also, like, popped up for me.

Rachel (18:22):
And they get something out from under her fingernails?

Matt (18:26):
I I pushed

Rachel (18:27):
I pushed that out aside. We're we're just gonna we're
just gonna not worry about it iswhat we're gonna do. Accuracy
and realism being the thing thatforever night is known for.
We're just not gonna worry aboutit.

Matt (18:38):
On on the the fingernail thing.

Rachel (18:40):
Yeah.

Matt (18:42):
It's hairs, and hairs are really hard

Rachel (18:47):
Yeah. But her fingernails have fallen off.

Matt (18:49):
But it could have still been there, like, stuck to her
fingers. What what I'm saying isthe

Rachel (18:54):
Yeah.

Matt (18:55):
It's fine. Guess, you're you're saying the hairs wouldn't
be attack like, there anymore.

Rachel (18:59):
Yeah.

Matt (19:00):
And I was saying the hairs wouldn't have broken down.

Rachel (19:03):
She's wearing gloves when they hang her up.

Matt (19:05):
That's right.

Rachel (19:06):
Because we see him untie the hands and hang her up, and
she's wearing gloves. So we'rejust gonna go with that and
leave it right there.

Matt (19:14):
That was his mistake.

Rachel (19:16):
Yep. Natalie is also able to take samples of her
internal organs, which would beliquefied at this point, but
which is, again

Matt (19:24):
First thing to go.

Rachel (19:25):
I can't. Because as Matt always tells the kids, you have
an agreement with the bacteriain your body that right now you
right now they feed you andlater, you feed them. We're not
we're not terrible parents. Itfits when it when it comes up.
Alright.
So this is jade no number 355,and she was found hanging in

(19:49):
this tree. And they actually isoutside their jurisdiction, her
single table in the morgue wherewe have every single body.

Matt (20:05):
So this brings up an interesting question of
jurisdiction. I could see themoutsourcing the autopsy to
Natalie because Natalie is theclosest facility with with the
resources. But why is the the Idon't know if they have what the
what is the equivalent of acounty in Canada, in a Canadian

(20:27):
province? But why doesn't thelocal law enforcement why aren't
they doing the investigation?Because they don't have any
information about where she waspotentially from.

Rachel (20:39):
Well, they could actually be doing the
investigation too, but Reesekinda goes rogue on this.

Matt (20:46):
That's a good point. Yeah. They just have the body, and
Nick and Tracy are kinda like,no leads. Okay. And Reese is
like, here's your fucking lead.

Rachel (20:58):
Yeah.

Matt (21:00):
And they're like, okay, Reese. And really, Nick is doing
his his police work followingReese around Yeah. Not
investigating the murder of thislady, I guess, until they they
get just the generic descriptionof her and go through missing
persons.

Rachel (21:20):
Reese absolutely hijacks Nick and Tracy for this and puts
them on it. And I don't theythere could very well be another
investigation happening in theprecinct where or in the, like,
area where it actually happened,but we don't talk about it
because Reese is just like, oh,I know who did this, and we're
gonna figure out how to prove hedid it. And I wanna point out
that I made the crack about it'sNatalie, but it could just be

(21:43):
that she has a freezer becausedo you remember Michael Jordan,
like the basketball player,Michael Jordan's dad

Matt (21:50):
Oh, yeah.

Rachel (21:51):
Was murdered in North Carolina in a rural county in
North Carolina, which rural inAmerica is not the same as rural
in Canada because we are verydecentralized. So there's still
a fairly high population inrural areas, whereas in, like,
Canada, you get really highdensity urban populations and
super low density ruralpopulations. So it could have

(22:13):
been even more rural than ourrural.

Matt (22:16):
Right.

Rachel (22:16):
And they literally put him in a shed because they
didn't have a freezer. Right.And that was in the nineties.

Matt (22:24):
Yeah.

Rachel (22:24):
That was about the time that this happened. They were
putting Michael Jordan's dad,who they didn't know who it was.
They just found him in a creek.They stuck him in somebody's
shed, and by the time they gothim and took him to a proper
autopsy facility, he was, like,severely decomposed, and it was
difficult to identify his body.So they're very well could have
been no freezer capability inthe rural county where she was

(22:47):
found.

Matt (22:48):
Yeah.

Rachel (22:48):
Whereas Natalie has that walk in cool room. So that
literally could have been likethe facility she's referring to
could have just been the factthat she has a place to store
them. So, Natalie says, like wesaid, decomp is 3 to 4 weeks.
This is a black female in hertwenties to thirties, but it,
obviously it's going to bedifficult to identify who she is

(23:11):
because, her face is missing andReese goes, no, she was
deliberately disfigured toconceal her identity. And this
is when Tracy is like, I'mgonna, I'm just gonna step out
for a minute because they're allstanding around this body.
This would be hard for mostpeople because it would be hard
for me. I talk about it a lot,but I also watch it on TV. I

(23:32):
don't think I could be in theroom with a heavily decomposed,
body because, you know, there'sthings that go along with it
that are instinctuallyunpleasant.

Matt (23:42):
Mhmm.

Rachel (23:43):
And
so she steps out. And this is when Natalie says that
the shot might not have beenwhat killed her. She she had
ligature marks on her neck, soshe could very easily have been
strangled. And Nick says, talkabout overkill. And then this is
when Reese reveals that he hassome information that he has not
shared with anybody yet.

(24:04):
And that is just a really,really spot on hunch. I mean,
he's seen this mode of killingbefore. He's seen this series of
this is this this is JordanManning's signature.

Matt (24:17):
Right. He he literally spent a chunk of his early
career

Rachel (24:22):
Yeah.

Matt (24:25):
Compiling a whole stack of similar unsolved murders that he
kind of, like, deducedpsychologically back to Jordan
Manning.

Rachel (24:41):
Yeah.

Matt (24:42):
And and so when he sees this and he hears the details,
he's like, another one for thestack. Yeah.

Rachel (24:49):
I know exactly who did this. He goes, it's not
overkill. It's desecration.

Matt (24:54):
Talk about overkill. It's not overkill. It's desecration.
I know who did this.

Rachel (25:04):
Yeah. And he goes, I know exactly who did this.
Jordan Manning. And then we cutback to the precinct. This is
when Tracy and Nick and Reeseare all together.
And Tracy and Nick are sittingat the table and Reese is kind
of hovering over them, andthere's this giant stack of
folders on the table. And Reeseis like, I'm I'm gonna give you
the tea on Jordan Manning. Like,he's a bad dude. He kills

(25:26):
people. And Tracy's like, oh,yeah.
I read his book. And they bothlook at her and she's like,
skimmed it. It seemed reallyinteresting. I mean

Matt (25:34):
She's a homicide detective. She's

Rachel (25:36):
a homicide detective. She read a book about a
psychopath. I don't know what totell you. And Nick's like, well,
to hear people talk about it,he's the literary rookie of the
year. And Reese is like, I'mgonna have to disagree with you
there.
He is a raging racist, and youhave never encountered evil like
you've encountered this guy.Like, this guy's the most evil
guy you'll ever meet. And Nickis like, ho ho ho. Hold my beer.

(26:01):
Hold my blood light.
What? Because this says

Matt (26:07):
Have you been saving that one?

Rachel (26:08):
No. Okay. I've said it before. It's from my best friend
is a vampire.

Matt (26:13):
Oh, gotcha.

Rachel (26:14):
This blood's for you. So this sends him into a flashback,
because guess what, y'all? Nickmet Hitler. This isn't funny,
but also oh

Matt (26:27):
my god. They start out like it's not obvious it's
Hitler.

Rachel (26:33):
Yeah. Honestly, on a rewatch, I think I'm gonna move
this episode back to, like theRasputin episode. So we get
Rasputin and Hitler out of theway, and we don't have to come
back to this because the final 5are, like, the best episodes of
forever night. And within in themiddle of it is fallen idle and
then this one, which is like,hey. I met Hitler.

Matt (26:58):
By the way.

Rachel (26:58):
I didn't like Hitler. He creeped me out, but I met him.
And this is when we see them onthe train and this guy is
coughing and Lacroix ends uphypnotizing the guy and telling
him to fuck off, so he leaves.And then this young bearded
fellow who's sitting across fromthe monastery Mustachioed.
Mustachioed.

Matt (27:15):
Long mustachioed fellow.

Rachel (27:17):
He's like, thank you, sir, like, for getting that guy
to go away. And Lacroix is like,mhmm. Nicholas, were these the
best accommodations you couldfind? And Nick goes, they were
the only ones I could find giventhe circumstances. Why are they
riding a train?

Matt (27:33):
They can fly.

Rachel (27:33):
They can fucking fly. They can fly.

Matt (27:37):
Maybe they're trying to maintain an identity, and part
of that identity is, like,paperwork for how you got into a
city.

Rachel (27:46):
You could buy the train ticket and then just fly.

Matt (27:51):
But if they're keeping track of who redeemed tickets?

Rachel (27:54):
They're not. There's no computer system. How would they
keep track of that?

Matt (27:58):
I don't know.

Rachel (27:59):
Can they fight fly faster than a train? Obviously.
One assumes. I don't know. Evenif it's like, well, it's a multi
day journey.
Well, this isn't a light prooftrain. They could literally have
just flown, got on the train inthe cargo compartment for the
day, and then gotten off andflown again. I don't know. It's

(28:20):
fine. Whatever.
Who cares? They're on a train.That's what matters. And the guy
across from them is like,stinking gypsies. Are you guys
gypsies?
And LaCroix is like, no. We aredefinitely not gypsies. And this
is when we come back to thepresent, because Nick is like,
hook. I can't believe I stillremember that, which is funny
actually because most of thisflashback is LaCroix talking to

(28:42):
who we find out is Hitler. NotNick.

Matt (28:45):
And Nick is not even

Rachel (28:46):
in the room. Not even in the room. So how is he having a
flashback about when he wasn'tactually in the room? I don't
know. But Reese

Matt (28:53):
Maybe maybe LaCroix related the story to him.

Rachel (28:57):
Yeah. Well, he must have because he gets that portrait
that Hitler drew of him. Becauseremember, Hitler wanted to be an
artist. Yes. Yeah.
So

Matt (29:06):
Yeah. But he got kicked out of art school.

Rachel (29:08):
Yeah. And that's all we're gonna talk about that. So
Reese's don't

Matt (29:13):
No. No. You you can cut this out. But I think it was
like a a webcomic thing, and itwas this guy's complaining about
this artist that is always,like, taking up space in this
gallery.

Rachel (29:28):
Yeah.

Matt (29:29):
And he's like, his stuff is horrible. Why does it always
get put up? Like, it's it'scausing a problem. I forget what
the premise is. Yeah.
But he's like, okay. I'm gonnago back in time and take care of
this guy. And so he

Rachel (29:42):
He gets him kicked out of art school.

Matt (29:44):
So he

Rachel (29:44):
And it's Hitler.

Matt (29:45):
He comes back, and he's like, alright. I got that guy
kicked out of art school wayback when. What's the worst that
could happen?

Rachel (29:54):
Thank you for that interlude.

Matt (29:55):
You're welcome.

Rachel (29:56):
This palette cleanser bought to you by Matt's
Tangential.

Matt (30:00):
Moments in the meme sphere with Matt.

Rachel (30:03):
So then Reese is telling them about Jordan, and this is
when he, like, taps the stack offiles. And he's like, these are
all unknowns going back 20years. They're all black women
chosen for their anonymity. Theywere all murdered or lynched in
one way or another becausethat's his joke slash like
trademark. And he says that ofall of these women, only one of

(30:26):
them was identified and it washis last victim.
And it's because Joe knew her.She was a regular girl on his
beat when he was a vice cop, andJordan Manning caught up with
her after he found out that shewas informing on Jordan Manning
to Reese. And actually, the onlyreason Jordan Manning is even in

(30:47):
prison is because he wasarrested on an unrelated charge.
He killed a guy in a bar fight.

Matt (30:54):
And since Joe was following him all the time, Joe
was there to arrest him.

Rachel (31:00):
Yeah.

Matt (31:00):
Yeah. So for the record, Reese brings out this stack of
unsolved cases Yeah. And says,Jordan Manning did it Yeah. But
there's no evidence, so you'lljust have to trust me.

Rachel (31:15):
Yes. I mean, he tells them, well, he'll tell them in a
minute. Yes.

Matt (31:25):
As much as Reese tell, like

Rachel (31:28):
We're not I

Matt (31:28):
can't gets on Nick gets on Nick about hunches.

Rachel (31:32):
Yeah. This is better than the time that Nick was,
like, oh, I know who did it. Itwas Elon Musk and then proceeded
and then proceeded to zoomaround town sticking people in
his trunk and leaving them,like, presents for skanky to
come unwrap.

Matt (31:48):
Yep.

Rachel (31:49):
So at least it's better than that. And Reese actually
assigns Tracy to help Natalie.He's like, okay. You're gonna go
help Natalie. And she's like,oh, but captain, I was already
collating the I was collatingthe missing persons, and he's
like, nope.
You're done with that. You needto go and help Natalie, and you
are on it until you find out whodid this if it takes all year

(32:11):
starting right now. Because shehesitates, and he's like, I said
right now. And she's like, okay.I'm sorry.
She leaves. And Nick just giveshim a look like, the fuck. And
this is when Reese is like, Iknow. I know. Like, I'm getting
I was really hard on her, but hesays, if she wants to learn to
cut the mustard, that meansshe's gotta get over her

(32:31):
squeamishness.
So she's got to go. She's got togo and help Natalie. She's got
to help Natalie figure out whothis is and find them some
evidence that gets JordanManning convicted of this
murder.

Matt (32:43):
Right. And, also, side angle on it is she needs to get
a little desensitized to deadbodies

Rachel (32:52):
Yeah.

Matt (32:53):
So that she can be more effective as a homicide
detective.

Rachel (32:56):
Right. If she's distracted by her physical
condition when she'sinvestigating a case, it's not
gonna

Matt (33:00):
Right. She's not gonna be able to take in as many details
and think about things.

Rachel (33:05):
Yeah. And this is when Nick looks at Reese, and he's
like, okay. So tell me, how didyou know it was Manning who
murdered these women? Did youhave a run-in with him in the
past and you had a flashback?Because that's what usually
happens to me.
And Reese is like, no. No. No.Let's just say I was 95% sure,
and then he told me he did it.And then we cut to Tracy and

(33:27):
Natalie at the morgue.
And Tracy is like, Reese told meeverything is on hold. Every
other case that Nick and Tracyhave is on hold until they get
an idea of this woman, even ifit takes all year. And Natalie
tries to give her anti nauseapills and just like pro tip for
everyone who's been listening,never take pills that Natalie

(33:50):
offers you. This is too soon.This is too soon after the last
episode.
She's like, Tracy, I made thesespecial pills. Why don't you
just take them, and we'll bothsee what happens?

Matt (34:05):
It'll make your brain work better.

Rachel (34:09):
Why are they red?
It just taps her with the hypodermic. It injects her
with mixed blood. I just wanna see what happens. But
Tracy actually refuses, whichgood job on Tracy. And she goes,
I've got to learn how to dothis, and that means no
cheating. Actually, it wouldn'tbe that bad to take anti nausea
pills because then your bodylearns to not be nauseous around

(34:31):
dead bodies.

Matt (34:32):
Prevent the association.

Rachel (34:33):
Yeah. But that's fine. She goes, I'm not here for the
captain. I'm here to deal withmy little problem, which is her
problem with really far gonedead body. I mean, it's a fair
problem to have.
She's a young cop. Yeah. She wasgonna have to confront this
eventually. And Natalie's like,okay. Cool.

(34:54):
So let's start. And then shejust whips the sheet off the
body.

Matt (34:57):
The graphic reveal.

Rachel (34:58):
And we can see it from the top down, like, the missing
face, tits out, all of it. It'sjust right there on the butt.
This is the most dead body we'veseen. Maybe season 1 where
there's that woman on the bench,which is technically a dead
body.

Matt (35:14):
Right.

Rachel (35:15):
But this is the most like, I'm a dead body dead body
that we have ever seen in thewhole show, and here it is. And
Tracy ends up, like, closing hereyes and, like, summoning
spiritual help to, like, getthrough this. And then she's
they start checking the bodywith magnifiers. Natalie does
this thing where she goes boopand, like, flicks her magnum,
like her magnification glassesdown, and so Natalie or Tracy

(35:37):
does the same. And Nataliestarts giving her report out
loud about the missing face.
She's like, okay. We're missingyou know, she's doing her

Matt (35:46):
dictating. She's recording.

Rachel (35:48):
Yeah. She's dictating her report for later. Yeah. And
Tracy actually interjects, andshe's like, this is so awful. It
is so sad, and it feels likenobody cares.
And Natalie says, Tracy fromNatalie. We know. We care, and
now we're going to do somethingabout it. It's so awful. It's

(36:10):
sad.
I mean, to die like this, no oneeven knows or seems to care that
you're gone.
Trace, we know. We care, and now we're going to do
something about it. K? Okay.
Okay. Like, yes.

Matt (36:29):
You need a little motivation.

Rachel (36:31):
Yeah. We know. We're here. We we care. We're doing
this, and we're gonna figure outwhat happened.
And that's our job, and we'regonna do it. And Tracy's like,
cool. Let's do this. And thenwhile they're busy doing this, I
think Nick is just followingReese around because he knows
what happened last time he wenton a vigilante investigation

(36:53):
spree, and he's concerned Reesemight do the same thing. So he's
following Reese around.
And so Nick and Reese go to thisbookstore, and this is, oh, this
looks like a really coolbookstore. Like, I wish we had
this bookstore in here, but,like, I would go to this
bookstore. Mhmm. I wonder ifthis is, Ben McNally's, like,
from stranger than fiction.

Matt (37:09):
Oh, yeah. It could be the same.

Rachel (37:11):
Yeah. But they

Matt (37:12):
production team was consistent between this episode
and that episode.

Rachel (37:16):
I mean, they're still filming in Toronto. So Yeah.
Yeah. And this so they go tothis bookstore, and Manning is
actually having a book signingevent. And Reese is literally
just standing, like, 10 feetaway from Jordan Manning, just
glaring at him.
Just like, just like, okay. Thispart is really hard. And then

(37:38):
Manning actually signs a bookand gives it to him. He, like

Matt (37:42):
Manning approaches Reese.

Rachel (37:44):
No. He doesn't. He signs the book, and he, like, gives it
to an assistant and tells him togive this book to Reese. Yeah.
No.
He's gonna confront him in aminute, but not just yet. 1st,
he gives him this book, andReese takes the book and he's
talking to Nick at the same timeand he says, you're looking at
the end of Western civilization.He's a cold blooded killer, and
it made him a celebrity. So onthe record, Reese predicted

(38:09):
Dexter.

Matt (38:10):
Except, Dexter who wasn't

Rachel (38:14):
I think trained. The rise of the obsession Oh. Oh.
With

Matt (38:20):
Yeah.

Rachel (38:21):
I like

Matt (38:21):
to he culturally predicted Yeah. What would drive the
popularity of a show likeDexter.

Rachel (38:28):
Yeah. I like true crime as much as I mean, I I listen to
a fair amount of true crime. Igo through seasons where I
listen to true crime, and then Idon't like it anymore for a
while. But I never likelistening to the ones that go
in-depth about serial killerswhere we focus on the serial
killer because to me, it feelsvoyeuristic. Like, what are why

(38:50):
are we focusing on the way thisperson killed people?
It doesn't feel it doesn't feelgreat to me. And I've seen the
rise of the true crime genre andhow we're making movies about
these serial killers, likeJeffrey Dahmer, one in
particular. There was thatNetflix one about Jeffrey
Dahmer, and they cast an actorwho is objectively handsome to

(39:13):
be Jeffrey Dahmer. And so peoplewere like, oh my god. I'm in
love with Dahmer.
Like, he's so hot. And I'm sorryy'all, but that's just gross.
It's just gross. Jeffrey Dahmerdid some really terrible things,
and he was able to get away withit because he was gay and it was
perceived as a gay crime andnobody cared. And that's tragic

(39:36):
and that's fucked up.
And I cannot believe we made amovie about it. That was a,
sensationalized movie about it.And I can't imagine being a
victim of some of these peopleand then you see a movie get
made about the person thatkilled them. And, yes, no killer
is allowed to profit off theirstory while they are in prison,

(40:01):
but we should not be makingthese people celebrities. And
that's what Reese is saying.
This guy should not be acelebrity for being a

Matt (40:09):
killer. Right.

Rachel (40:11):
If you wanna focus on anything, focus on the victims.
That's why I like that thatpodcast by Holly Rubinhold about
the victims of Jack the Ripper.It's not about Jack the Ripper.
She doesn't give a shit aboutJack the Ripper. It's about,
giving back giving those victimsback who they were.

Matt (40:31):
Right. Yeah. Focusing on their names and

Rachel (40:34):
And their lives

Matt (40:35):
and then filling out their story.

Rachel (40:37):
And what what in their life led them to that moment
where they were where they werevictimized and not, oh, they
were prostitutes. That's why.And so they just become this
caricature. Well, we are are sodeeply fetishizing like Jack the
Ripper or Jeffrey Dahmer oranyway, that's my soapbox about

(40:57):
I'm bound to run a foul of acouple of soapboxes in this
episode. Mhmm.
And that's when I feel like Ican I can go off a bit about,
which is just it's okay to beinformed about true crime, but I
don't think it's okay tofetishize these serial killers?
And that's what Reese is talkingabout. He's like, this guy has
become sensational because he'scontroversial, because people

(41:18):
have this morbid fascinationwith murderers and this type of
crime. And Nick is like, okay,captain. I'm here you.
But, like, if he confessed toyou and this is when Reese goes,
I didn't say he confessed. Itold I said he told me he did
it. That's a distinction withoutdifference. I guess he didn't

(41:39):
explicitly say it. What he'strying to say is in the book, he
put so many details in the bookthat only the killer would know.
It had to be like a letter toanybody who knew he did it.
Right. To be like, I did it, butcouched in fiction in such a way
that they could never use it asa confession. Right. And so

(42:00):
Reese takes the book that JordanManning gives him and he flips
it open.
And in the cover, it says, to myfavorite loser, Joe Reese. And
then there's a Italian phrase,which I'm a I'm a try. Perme say

(42:20):
I don't know.

Matt (42:22):
Bill, is that Spanish? It's Italian.

Nick (42:29):
This way to join the lost people. Dante's inferno. It's
part of the inscription of theentrance to hell.

Rachel (42:36):
And Nick is like, oh, okay. Because Rhys goes, it must
be some kind of racial slur. AndNick goes, oh, no. It's it's
Italian, and it says this way tojoin the lost people because
it's from Dante's Inferno, andit's part of the inscription on
the entrance to hell. Yep.
And because this is the type ofthoroughness that people come to
our podcast for, I went aheadand looked up the entire

(42:57):
inscription on the entrance tohell.

Matt (42:59):
Oh, good.

Rachel (42:59):
Which is through me, the way to the city of woe. Through
me, the way to everlasting pain.Through me, the way among the
lost. Okay. So a note, I lookedthrough, like, 17 translations,
and I could not find one thatspecifically said, this way to
join the lost people.
Through me, the way among thelost, justice moved my maker on

(43:21):
high. Divine power made me.Wisdom supreme and primal love.
Before me, nothing, but thingseternal and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, ye who enterhere.
There you go. Read the wholething to you. And this is when
Reese is like, yeah. He told meby putting it in the book, it's
all in here, Nick, and he handshim his copy of the book. And
then we kinda cut to a littlebit a little bit forward when

(43:43):
Manning is done doing hissignature, like, his signing and
he's getting ready to go.
And this is when Reese comesback to confront Manning, and
Manning looks over at Nick, andhe goes, I see they finally
teamed you up with an Aryan. Oh,boy.

Matt (43:57):
So we can immediately see why Joe Rees feels as strongly
as he does about Manning.

Rachel (44:04):
This kinda feels like you remember in Bad Blood, the
Jack the Ripper episode? Mhmm.How I was upset that Jack the
Ripper is so obviously evil thatI thought it would have been a
much more powerful episode if weweren't sure.

Matt (44:18):
Yeah.

Rachel (44:19):
But I feel the same about this. I kind of feel like
if we had left it ambiguousabout whether or not Jordan
Manning was actually as bad asReese said he was, I think I
would have connected with him asa villain. I mean, he's a bad
guy. I hate him. I'm I'm onboard with this episode.

(44:41):
It's fine. But I feel likeincluding this line and giving
us, like, a slam dunk, thisdude's a douchebag, ends up
cheapening our overall narrativebecause, racism is insidious and
it is not always overt.

Matt (44:56):
Right.

Rachel (44:57):
And when we make this guy overtly racist and overtly
an asshole, asshole. Itundermines what we're going for
here. It's fine. Again, it'sfine, but I would have liked
this better if he had not hadthat obvious of a dig. Because

(45:17):
with the book, the book that hegives Reese, that doesn't
automatically read as I'm agiant douchebag.
It's just like poke. Like Right.

Matt (45:27):
It's just we have a history.

Rachel (45:29):
Yeah. I gave you I gave you a gift.

Matt (45:31):
A rivalry.

Rachel (45:32):
Oh, good, Reese. You showed up for my signature. I
wasn't sure you remembered me.You know? And then then we get
this line, the Arian line, andit's like, that's not I mean, I
guess they wanted they neverwanted Reese at any point to
appear like the villain, whichis also fine.
But I think in a when we do thereboot in a 2024 lens, giving

(45:55):
giving Jordan Manning a longertime period before we even even
if we if he is never overtlyracist, but he is always tacitly
racist Mhmm. He's a better he'sa more realistic version. I
mean, yes. This happens over atleast sometimes, but also just
sometimes it's it's subtle.Yeah.

(46:17):
And that's the insidious thingabout racism is that it is not

Matt (46:21):
More like a continuous accumulation of small slights.

Rachel (46:24):
Yeah. It's not always the big things. Sometimes it's
little things. And Nick, I'msure, doesn't love being called
an Aryan. So, he has blondehaired and blue dyed, I guess.
But he's like, oh god. I metHitler. Don't even play. It's
not great. So then Reeseactually pushes Manning up
against the wall.
He, like, grabs him and push himagainst the wall. And this is

(46:46):
when Manning goes, it's okay,people. He's a police officer.
He's allowed to do this. I'm notgoing there.
I'm not talking about this. Weare not discussing this. I saw
that deep breath, and we arejust we are gonna move right
along.

Matt (47:00):
Moving right That's a whole other That's

Rachel (47:02):
what we're doing right now.

Matt (47:04):
That's that's a entirely different genre of podcast.

Rachel (47:07):
Yes. I'm sure they're out there. Please feel free to
go find them. Find people whoare people of color talking
about that and listen to theirvoices. And this is when Jordan
Manning is like, oh, poor Reese.
You still have a persecutioncomplex. And as Matt pointed out
earlier, if you are in a systemthat is systematically

(47:29):
discriminating against you,that's not a persecution
complex. That's just what'shappening. That's just seeing
the truth. And he goes, butyou're a captain now.
Thank God for affirmativeaction. They pack so much shit
into, like, 3 lines.

Matt (47:44):
Right.

Rachel (47:44):
And I can't. I just can't because we just went
through the overturning ofaffirmative action and there is
so much there. And I encouragepeople to go out and find people
of color talking about this andlisten to their voices. We are
not going to address it on thispodcast because this is when

(48:08):
Nick steps in and he's like,that's enough out of you. Like,
quit it.

Matt (48:14):
Right. Stop egging on my captain.

Rachel (48:15):
Stop. And this is when Jordan looks at him and he goes,
pardon me, detective. But Joeand I go way back. Our rapport
isn't easily understood byoutsiders. Then he looks over at
Reese and he goes, you'd like tokill me, wouldn't you, Joe?
And Reese is like, actually, I'dlike to take you downtown, and
this is when Jordan is like, no,man. First, you don't have a

(48:38):
warrant. You just shoved meagainst the law. I am leaving,
and then he just dips. And Nickturns to Reese, and he goes, I'm
sorry, captain, but what thehell is the matter with you?

Matt (48:49):
Which I'm glad Nick called Reese out on.

Rachel (48:52):
Like, what is happening? What did you just do? And then
we cut to Natalie and Tracy andthe very graphic body, which we
are still very graphicallyshowing everybody. And this is
when Natalie is like, Tracy, howare you holding up? And Tracy's
like, no.
I'm doing alright. And then shefinds the hair and blood matted
underneath the fingernails. AndNatalie tells them to bag them

(49:14):
and tag them, and she'll getthem sent off. Like, that's a
really good find, Tracy. Goodjob.
And Natalie finds puncture markson the victim's thigh, and
they're not typical of a userlike a drug user. She says
because they're administered toocleanly and also they're in a
weird spot. They're like on herthigh. And Tracy goes, is it

(49:35):
insulin? Is she diabetic?
Like, this is a clue. We we mullover it for a little while. And
the real important here pointhere is this is when Natalie's
like, okay. Are you ready?Because we're going in.
It's time to open this body up.And then we come back to Nick
and Reese. And Reese and Nickare at the precinct, and Reese

(49:57):
is, like, power walking throughthe precinct, and he's, like,
now you see what we're upagainst or what I'm up against.
And Nick goes, what we're upagainst. But honestly, captain,
you tipped him off.
Now he knows. We're onto him.You should have held it
together. I mean, it yes. But Ican see where Reese is just like

(50:19):
this guy.
He goes later, he says he getsunder my skin and he makes it
crawl. He's just he's dealt withthis dude for so long. He's seen
this guy get away with so much,and it has to be so infuriating.
It's difficult to to not act onhow he's feeling. And Nick tells
him, like, you've told me plentyof times.

(50:40):
Like, you've given me thelecture about not tipping off
the suspect before, and yet youjust went and did it. And Reese
is like, I'm sorry. I can't helpit, man. This guy just gets
under my skin. And Nick callsit.
He's like, oh, you're the onewho busted him, aren't you? And
Rhys goes, yeah. I was there.And he's about to say more, but
this is when some flowersarrive, and they're from

(51:03):
Manning.

Matt (51:04):
Of course, they are.

Rachel (51:05):
And he sent his entire tour schedule going back 6
months. So here's my alibi,basically.

Matt (51:11):
Mhmm.

Rachel (51:12):
This is what you're probably looking for. And Nick
reads the card and it says,you'd have picked these yourself
if you had the time. And Reesegoes, funny guy. Next time,
remind me to shove roses downhis throat, thorns and all. And
then he throws the flowers awayand he goes, these are cotton

(51:33):
flowers, Nick.
It's not important, but theseare not actually cotton flowers.
Like, we live in cotton country.I I drive past cotton fields
every single day. This is notwhat cotton looks like, and they
could have bought cotton. Youcan buy cotton for Well,

Matt (51:51):
you can buy cotton flowers around here, but they could've
they could've plucked out thepetals and stuffed in cotton
balls.

Rachel (52:02):
No. Cotton doesn't really have, like, a flower you
can pick. Like, you don't putcotton flowers in a bouquet. You
put cotton buds, like unopenedcotton buds or partially open
cotton buds. They're realpretty, but, they there's a huge
market abroad for cotton forbouquets.
And if you just look up cottonbouquet, you can see what they

(52:24):
look like. They do look like acotton ball in, like, a a
flower. It doesn't matter. I getwhere they were going. Maybe
they maybe it wasn'tcommercially available at the
time, and they were just doingtheir best.
I'm not sure. But I just decide,though, these are not cotton
flowers. But the point is thatwas the you would have picked
these yourself if you had thetime dig. Because famously, in

(52:46):
the United States, if you'relistening to this and you're not
US based, cotton was one of themain crops that, enslaved people
were used as labor for pickingbecause it's extremely labor
intensive, especially before theinvention of the cotton gin,
which the cotton gin was used toseparate the seeds out of the
cotton because, otherwise, youhave to individually pick the

(53:06):
seeds out. And, actually, thecotton gin is credited with the
resurgence of enslavement in theUS, and that's a whole other
complicated history thing thatwe're not gonna get into today,
but that's the joke.
I mean, that's the the shittyjoke that Jordan Manning is
saying is, like, here's somecotton. You depict it yourself.
Okay. And then we come back tosee Natalie, and Natalie is

(53:29):
actually autopsying the bodyvery graphically. Like, we see
it from the top again.

Matt (53:33):
Organs.

Rachel (53:33):
We get organs. We get breasts with no nipples.

Matt (53:36):
Right.

Rachel (53:37):
We get breasts. And this isn't even remotely a y
incision. I don't know why wedidn't do all autopsies are
performed the exact same. Whywouldn't it doesn't matter. It's
fine.
But she's taking samples.They're not masked at all.
They're just it it's fine. Soshe takes a pancreas sample and

(53:58):
because that's how they're gonnatest to see if this lady had
diabetes because we think maybethose shots were insulin. Then
we come back to the precinct,and Nick gets this stack of
files.
He rees, like, drops it on hisdesk, and he tells him to find
the clues in the book to themurders, and he'll see that the
murders in the book includeinformation that only the killer

(54:19):
would have known and that theycorrelate to these missing
persons cases. But he hascouched all of his facts in
fiction, and so he can deny it,deny it, deny it. Oh, I that's
totally coincidence. I didn'tknow anything about it. And Nick
says, well, back then, we didn'thave the sophistication we have
today.

(54:40):
We didn't have the cutting edgepolice work that we are working
with right now. Even when westarted the show, we didn't have
the same level of DNA was not asprevalent when we started
forever night, and it is now.

Matt (54:53):
From even from 92 to 96.

Rachel (54:57):
Yeah.

Matt (54:57):
DNA testing went from weeks and not not, I guess, as
as high confidence that a matchwas a match. Yeah. And and in
just, like, 4 or 5 years, we getyou can get it back in a few

(55:17):
days and have a lot moreconfidence that a lot more parts
of the DNA match.

Rachel (55:22):
Yeah. And this is when Reese is really being super
fatalist about everything that'shappening. Like, he's on one
hand, he's telling Nick,investigate these missing cases,
like, match them up with themurders in the book. But on the
other hand, Nick is like, well,there's got to be something.
We'll figure it out.

(55:42):
And Reese is like, no. We won't.He just wants us to try so he
can laugh at us, and you can betyour badge this murder is
airtight, and we're never gonnafigure it out. So he's like,
figure it out. We're never gonnafigure it out.
And I think what we're supposedto be getting here is Reese just
wants to be believed.

Matt (56:00):
Right.

Rachel (56:01):
He doesn't really believe he'll be able to get
Jordan Manning on anything. He'shoping he will, but he's not.
That's not why he's doing this.He wants someone to tell him,
you're right.

Matt (56:14):
Yeah. He wants someone to struggle through the same the
same information, the samefacts, and and conclude that,
yes, this guy did it. Yeah. I'mconvinced this guy did it. And I
agree there's nothing we can puton him.

Rachel (56:31):
Right. He just but he wants vindication.

Matt (56:34):
Yeah. He wants to be seen.

Rachel (56:35):
Yeah. He wants to be seen, which is fair. And Reese
tells him finishes his storyfrom earlier about how he was
there when Jordan Manning gotbusted for his manslaughter
conviction. And he says, youknow, I could have taken him out
that night. He'd thrown the guythrough the front window.
The guy broke his neck. Manningwas coming out with a gun to
finish the job, and when I toldhim to put the gun down, he

(56:58):
hesitated. And I could havefired and taken him out, but I
held back And I put my gun down,and you don't know what it's
like, Nick, living with the ideathat you could have changed
history, but you didn't. Andthat's like Whoop

Matt (57:15):
whoop whoops. Nick, right back into the fight back.

Rachel (57:18):
Oh, actually, I do. Yeah. I could have killed
Hitler. This is the one wherehe's not actually with them.
He's, like, over drinking by thedoor, but we're still seeing the
flashback.
I don't really wanna talk aboutthis this flashback. Actually,
not a lot happens. Most of it isLacroix having a conversation
with Hitler and Hitler trying togive him propaganda and Lacroix

(57:38):
being like, I'm sorry. I'mapolitical. He goes, I am, as it
were, above all that.
Yeah. And then Nick and Reesewe're back to Nick and Reese,
and Reese comes out and he'sgetting his jacket on, and Nick
is like, oh, are you are youheaded home? And he's like, no.
I just think I need to get someair. I'm gonna go for a walk.
And Nick says, you know, I thinkI found something, maybe. I

(58:02):
don't know. Because there's notreally anything in this in this
area that matches hisdescription, the description of
his murders recently. Oh, Ifound nothing is what he says.
Nick says, I found nothing.
Like, there's nothing here thatmatches these descriptions.
There's I I don't I can'tthere's nothing here. Like, I
got I got nothing. And Reesesays, well, it just seems so

(58:22):
strange to me that so manypeople just disappear, and so
many of them are never evenmissed. And all I could think
about was the line from theDresden Files where he says that
the percentage of the populationthat goes missing every year is
the same percentage of thepopulation that goes missing in
a herd to predation.

Matt (58:42):
Yes.

Rachel (58:44):
And I was like, So literally, the percentage or
have you ever seen the map whereit's like the cave systems and
then people who go missing?

Matt (58:52):
Oh,
yeah. Yeah. Subtranium.

Rachel (58:55):
If you overlap the 2, like more people go missing in
areas with extensive cavesystems than where there isn't
an extensive cave system.

Matt (59:02):
Right.

Rachel (59:03):
Anyway

Matt (59:05):
Just just a little seed to plant there.

Rachel (59:07):
That's that's terrifying. That's terrifying.
And Nick is like, yeah. I'vemade people disappear before. I
mean yeah.
No. I get exactly what you'resaying. But Nick says, you know,
we're a long way off from reportfrom Natalie because she's got a
big job, and she's gonna have tokind of guess at a lot of it,
and then is it gonna even beright? And he goes, but, you

(59:27):
know, we'll figure out who itis. Every life leaves a mark on
the world.
And Reese does this, like, situp a little taller thing, and he
goes, every soul touches anothersoul somewhere for better or for
worse.

Nick (59:39):
We'll find out who she is. Every life leaves a mark on the
world, captain.

Matt (59:44):
Every soul touches another somewhere for better or worse.

Rachel (59:49):
I don't know if that's a quote. It looks like he's
quoting, but I don't think he'squoting. I think he's just,
like, internalizing the, like,yeah. Everybody affects somebody
else, even if it's negatively.

Matt (01:00:00):
It bolsters him.

Rachel (01:00:01):
Yeah. And Reese goes on. He's like, every time Manning
kills someone, he assumes thatbecause they're black, they
won't be missed, that nobody'slooking for them, and he's
wrong. That's not true. Thenhe's like, you know what?
We're gonna get him. We're gonnafigure this out. We're gonna get
him, Nick. And then he leaves.And Nick holds up Jordan
Manning's book like he's lookingthrough it.
Like, I gotta read this. There'spoetry. Kinda sounds like

(01:00:24):
LaCroix. That's gotta be hard toread. And then we go to Jordan
Manning, and Jordan Manning ispaying an old prison buddy to
beat him up.
That's really all there is tosay about this. He's just like,
here's cash. Hit me in the face.And then we go back to the
precinct, and Reese returns fromhis walk, which is a kind of
important he goes on this walkright now because he's missing
during the time period.

Matt (01:00:44):
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

Rachel (01:00:46):
Gets assaulted. Yeah. So this is supposed to be a, oh,
no. Did he do it? Which no.
Because we just watched JordanManning get beat up. It's just
that he doesn't have a goodalibi for the time period, which
as we know, slam dunk. That's a

Matt (01:01:00):
nail on top of that. It's not even that he has an alibi or
not. They don't even ask him.It's a report was submitted.
Internal investigations is goingto be processing this.
Yeah. You need to stay away fromthe guy just so that you need to
stay above board beyond reproachYeah. For the protection of the

(01:01:24):
police department Yeah. And forlike, if this goes to trial or
anything. Yeah.
Like, you need to play it by thebook, Reese.

Rachel (01:01:36):
Right.

Matt (01:01:36):
And don't go near the guy because that just complicates
things.

Rachel (01:01:41):
Yeah. And this whole thing kinda goes away really
quickly, actually. It's sort oflike and then it's gone. Because
Reese comes back, and they'relike, oh, yeah. Jordan Manning
is charging you with assaultinghim.
Sorry, Joe, but you need toretain counsel. They give him
the picture of the guy of JordanManning with, like, really fake
looking, like, facial damage orwhatever. And he says, you're

(01:02:04):
restrained from approaching himor contacting him under penalty
of law. And then he leaves. Andcongratulations.
That's the last we're gonna hearabout that.

Matt (01:02:13):
And Probably Internal Investigations looks at it and
is like, oh, Banning and Reeshave history.

Rachel (01:02:20):
Yeah.

Matt (01:02:21):
And if Rees responded just like off the record, like, hey.
This guy probably, like, hadhimself beat up Yeah. And then
claimed I did it because he'salways trying to get at me.
Yeah. And then they open thecase file.
Oh, yeah. He did that, like, 20times when Reese arrested him

(01:02:42):
before.

Rachel (01:02:43):
Yeah. It's just it's fine. It just goes away, and
it's okay. Because if we'dbelabored this, it would have
felt like alright. Artificialconflict.
Yeah. Yeah. And so we go toTracy and Natalie. We divided
the party. We split the partythis episode, so we're flip
flopping a lot.
And so Tracy and Natalie are outin the hallway, and it's implied

(01:03:04):
that Tracy had some kind ofepisode because she's, like,
holding o 2 up, like, she'sbreathing oxygen to try to,
like, revive her. And Natalie'sfilling out this form, and Tracy
goes, I don't know how you dothis day in and day out. And
Natalie goes, it's what I wastrying to do, Tracy. Like, I
like to think this is where thereal detective works gets done.

(01:03:25):
Sometimes it's where the onlydetective work gets done.

Matt (01:03:28):
And and fair that it's, like, she's trained. Like Yeah.
She literally trained for yearsin this kind of thing, And so
it's not like a personal failingof Tracy

Rachel (01:03:42):
Right.

Matt (01:03:42):
That she can't handle it. It's Natalie is a professional.
She has cultivated the skillsnecessary.

Rachel (01:03:51):
As long as the body isn't burnt, she's good to go.

Matt (01:03:54):
Right.

Rachel (01:03:54):
Yeah. She says, you've actually really done really
well, Tracy. You know, thosefibers that you found were hair,
I got news, and it's distinctlynot her hair. So it's probably
her her, the guy who assaultedher. That's his hair.
So you did really good, but wealso didn't find any insulin or
illicit drugs. So

Matt (01:04:17):
Or signs of diabetes.

Rachel (01:04:19):
Yeah. So we don't know what those needle marks are. And
Tracy goes, yeah. But theposition of the needle mark
suggests self administration.And she's like, oh, Tracy,
you're doing so good.
Like, now you're starting tosound like a medical examiner.
And Tracy goes, yeah. But whatabout vaccinations? And I love
it. Natalie reaches over andpushes the oxygen mask back on
her face.

(01:04:39):
She goes, here. I have anotherhit. I think it's helping. And
Tracy goes, yeah. But whovaccinates themselves?
And Natalie goes, oh, a doctor.

Matt (01:04:49):
Natalie would know. Yeah. Natalie's done lots of

Rachel (01:04:54):
She's given that option when we're done. We're done. So
then Reese we go back to Reese,and Reese is like, oh, he's just
trying to take me out so he canneutralize me. He must be
planning another killing. Well,he's taking you out because
you're obsessed with him andyou're

Matt (01:05:08):
compromising. Only one watching him.

Rachel (01:05:11):
Right. Of course, he's neutralizing you. And you tipped
off that you were there. Hedidn't even know this was
entirely random. It's not likehe he hung that body outside of
Reese's precinct precinct.
The fact that the body wasdelivered to the precinct where
Reese was the captain isentirely random.

Matt (01:05:27):
Right. It's just coincidence.

Rachel (01:05:29):
So had he not, he could have covertly kept an eye on him
and caught him, you know,stalking a woman or trying to
harm a woman.

Matt (01:05:36):
It's possible that if the body had ended up somewhere
else, that Reese may have, like

Rachel (01:05:46):
Heard about it?

Matt (01:05:47):
Yeah. It it may have crossed his desk at some point,
or he may have, like, an openopen query, like, hey. If
there's anything matching thisprofile, send it my way. Yeah.
Because I'm keeping the list.
And then and that could havestill been like, this happened,
like, right after Manning gotout of prison.

Rachel (01:06:09):
Right.

Matt (01:06:11):
I'll add that to the stack, and I need to get eyes on
Manning.

Rachel (01:06:15):
Right.

Matt (01:06:15):
And so it just would have taken a little longer.

Rachel (01:06:18):
Yeah. That's true. But Nick tells him, like, I don't
get it. How come you didn't takeyour your suspicions to your
superiors before? How come youhaven't told anybody else about
this?
And he's like, oh, you think Ididn't? But, like, look at me. I
was one black cop and just avice detective at the time. And
here I am telling a story abouta genocidal racist because I

(01:06:38):
couldn't give the story away.

Nick (01:06:40):
Captain, I still don't get it. Why didn't you bring your
suspicions about Manning to yoursuperiors?

Matt (01:06:45):
I did. Oh, believe me. I did. I laid it all out for my
captain and anybody who wouldlisten.

Nick (01:06:50):
And they didn't do anything about it?

Matt (01:06:51):
Look at me, Nick. We're talking one black cop, a vice
detective at that, telling thiscrazy scenario about a genocidal
racist. I couldn't give thatstory your way around here.
Times have changed. You thinkso?
I wish I thought so too.

Rachel (01:07:09):
Nobody wanted to hear it. And Nick goes, times have
changed. And Rhys goes, youthink so? I wish I thought so.
And we're not going there.
We are not going there. Again, Iencourage you to find podcasts
that discuss this, find booksthat talk about this, educate

(01:07:30):
yourself on the history andcurrent state of race relations
in the US by listening to personof color voices. Go go forth.
Educate yourself. And we comeback we're coming back to the
episode personally.
Me, I am. And Reese tells Nick,can you please go and watch

(01:07:52):
Jordan Manning and keep him fromhurting anyone else? If I'd been
the one to beat him up, Nick,there wouldn't be pieces big
enough left for them tophotograph.

Matt (01:08:03):
Yeah. So he's a little biased.

Rachel (01:08:06):
Yeah. He's like, I need you to go and do this. I did not
beat him up, just in case you'rewondering, because I would have
done better. That's what hesays.

Matt (01:08:16):
Yeah.

Rachel (01:08:17):
And this is when we cut to Lacroix because what do we
need in this moment? A Lacroixinterlude. And Lacroix goes,
pour the cappuccinos, friends.Smoke them if you have them
because it's poetry night.

Matt (01:08:28):
Oh, LaCroix.

Rachel (01:08:29):
And he says tonight's lightness is from the fellow who
got rich writing greeting cardsfor the devil, and then he reads
a poem from the book.

LaCroix (01:08:39):
Pour the cappuccinos, friends. Smoke them if you have
them. It's poetry time again.Some thoughts for you to dream
on. Tonight's likeness exertedfrom killing mind by that fellow
who got rich writing greetingcards for the devil.

(01:09:01):
Life's ending evolution. Everydeath is gross. She should
please me now, this dead one,with whatever warmth remains,
with that rattle in Earthrock.

Rachel (01:09:15):
It's weird. It's like I see beauty in the final gurgle
in her throat, and it it soundslike the kind of book I would
never read. I'd be and when wecome back, LaCroix shuts the
book, looks at the cover, andmakes like a face.

Matt (01:09:31):
Same Lacroix. Same.

Rachel (01:09:33):
And then we go back to the flashback because now
Lacroix is joining in on theflashback break. He's like,
dang. That reminds me of thattime I met Hitler. And this is
when the guy gets up and he goesto clean up before they arrive
at their destination, and weit's actually him cutting his
beard into the classic Hitlerstash, and Lacroix and Nick are

(01:09:53):
chatting about what they'vesensed from him, and Lacroix's
like, I kinda feel like maybe weneed to we need to bring him
over and have him join thefamily. I think he'd liven
things up a little bit.
He'd certainly be interesting.And Nick goes, can you just kill
him and have done with it? Hefeels so disaffected in this
flashback. Like, dang it. I tooka train because I was hoping

(01:10:15):
Lacroix would wanna fly and notride the train, and I could have
some moment of alone time.
But Lacroix was like, oh, great.Road trip. Yeah. We'll go
together. And he came on thetrain with him.
And Lacroix, I'm just gonnashorthand all the rest of this
flashback so we can be done withit. Because Lacroix goes into
the to the bathroom, and the guylooks at him and he's like, why

(01:10:35):
are you here? Because LaCroix isabout to turn him into a
vampire, and as soon as Hitlerlooks up and he's got the the
Hitler mustache, LaCroix islike, oh, god. No. No.
It freaks him out. I don't knowif it's the mustache or the
overwhelming stench of evil thatis emanating from Hitler, but
it's too much for Lacroix and hedecides he's not gonna do it.
The end. So then we come back toJordan getting into a car like a

(01:10:59):
taxi, and Nick flies off afterhim. He's actually in his car,
but he gets out of his car andflies off after him.
And we get that, like, speedylow flight cam where he's flying
just, like, 15 feet off theroad. Mhmm. So, canonically,
moth mothman's back. Woah.Somebody had a mothman sighting
that night.
Congratulations. And then isJordan going to the same

(01:11:20):
warehouse where he got beat up?And Nick lands, and he's about
to go in after him when Reesepops up because Reese is also
following Jordan Manning. Sowhat he was telling Nick was, I
need you to follow him. I'm notgonna tell you, but I'm also
gonna be following him, and Ineed you to be my eyes so that
if we need a witness about whathappens, you're there.

Matt (01:11:41):
Yeah.

Rachel (01:11:43):
So Reese goes in after Jordan, who says, I knew you'd
come, which kind of implies thatJordan had contacted Reese and
set up this meeting. And this iswhen Reese is like, I wanna see
hands. Like, I wanna see yourhands. And Jordan Manning
responds, come on, Joe. If Iwanted to kill you, you'd
already be dead.

(01:12:03):
And Reese goes, yeah. Andhanging from a tree? And Jordan
goes, that could be arranged. SoReese is like, why'd you call me
here? And what he did was hecalled him there so that he
could lay out his master plan,which again, I get it.

Matt (01:12:21):
You caught me monologuing.

Rachel (01:12:23):
I get it. We wanted this guy to be loved. He we wanted
him to be a check every boxvillain. He's not only racist.
He's not only killing people.
He's also trying to incite arace war, a la serial killer who
wanted to incite a race war. Hekilled a bunch of people and
wrote Helter Skelter on the walland carved a cross into his

(01:12:45):
forehead. He's not technically aserial killer, though. He's a
cult leader. Manson.
Charles Manson. He's trying toincite a race war a la Charles
Manson, like Helter Skelter,some Helter Skelter bullshit.
And okay. Alright. Fine.
It's fine. But, again, when youmake racism so much a caricature

(01:13:09):
of racism, you undermine youractual point, which is that
literally everyone has thecapacity to do this. You don't
have to be the kind of personwho wants to start a race war.
You can just be a straight upracist asshole.

Matt (01:13:21):
Right.

Rachel (01:13:22):
And sometimes it's insidious and sometimes it's
subtle and very rarely is itthis big and overt and easily
identifiable. And I'm just gonnaleave it at that. I'm just gonna
leave it at that. And Reese islike, you killed those women,
didn't you? And this is whenJordan is like, you I thought
you had more respect for myintelligence.
You really think I'm gonna belike, yeah. I killed all 20. Let

(01:13:44):
me tell you my name their namesand some facts. He's like,
you're probably wearing a wire.I'm not gonna confess to you.
And then he punches Manning,which is come on, Reese, please.
And pulls a gun on him. And thisis this is not gonna look good
on the IA investigation.

Matt (01:14:01):
Right.

Rachel (01:14:03):
And Manning ends up daring him to do it because he's
like, do it. It'll be all overthe news that a black cop killed
a white guy, and it'll start therace war that I wanna start. And
Reese goes, I'm not gonna killyou. I'm gonna throw you in with
the worst brothers in the pen,and then I'm gonna tell them
what you're all about. And thenI'm just gonna let the dice fall

(01:14:24):
where they may.
Thank you, Reese. That'sexcellent. That's a fun chef's
kiss. I love it. And Jordangoes, yeah.
That's not gonna happen. Nojustice, no peace, Joe. And this
is when Nick pops up. We seehim, like, behind, and he's
watched this whole thing. Andthen when Reese leaves, he pops
up and he's like, yeah, man.

(01:14:45):
I heard it all. And Reese islike, you heard it all? You you
actually heard it? Like, youbelieve me? This is his moment
where he feels seen.

Matt (01:14:51):
Right.

Rachel (01:14:52):
Because Nick is like, yeah. I heard it, but I don't
know what the fuck he wassaying. And Reese is like, see?
This is what I'm talking about.This dude is unstable.
And Nick is like, yeah. I seeit. I got it. No. I heard heard.
I see it. And Reese says, cool.I'm glad you're on my side. Oh,
by the way, I grabbed some hairwhen I had him, like, when I had
him by the hand by the head. AndI'm just gonna take these

(01:15:14):
samples into me, like, whips outa plastic bag and dumps the
samples in there.
Don't, Reese. You're notsupposed to have any contact
with him. You're not supposed tocontact him. You're not supposed
to do it now.

Matt (01:15:29):
Say, they compared it with samples from his personal
effects.

Rachel (01:15:36):
Okay. So maybe he says

Matt (01:15:38):
he left it. This is just to confirm his suspicions that
the hair samples would match.

Rachel (01:15:46):
Okay. So maybe Reese pulled up. Oh, I got it off his
hairbrush when he was nowherenear me, and somebody brought me
the hairbrush while I was safelyin the precinct and nowhere near
him. And Reese is like, I'mgonna take these in. I'm gonna
get these processed.
You stay on him. Don't lose him.And in the meantime, Tracy and

(01:16:06):
Natalie have ID'd the victim,and she was a doctor. And she
had finished her residency, andshe was going home to Kenya to
open a clinic. And they hadn'theard from her because the area
she was going to was reallyremote, and all her family is in
Kenya.
And so as soon as she was,quote, leaving, she became
invisible. And that's why he wasable to murder her and get away

(01:16:27):
with it.

Matt (01:16:28):
Right. Anybody who might have noticed she was missing
would not have been able to getword out to them.

Rachel (01:16:33):
Yeah. And they didn't know she didn't arrive in Kenya.
So even if she never contactedthem again, they wouldn't know.

Matt (01:16:38):
Right. They weren't expecting to hear from her
anyway.

Rachel (01:16:40):
Right. And she actually did a drug study at the prison
where Jordan Manning was, and hewas one of the people that
participated in the drug study.

Matt (01:16:49):
Right. So they connected him.

Rachel (01:16:51):
Right. So he was planning this for a long time,
and her airline tickets werenever redeemed. Slam dunk. We
know who this woman is. AndNatalie pops in as Tracy is
telling Reese about this andsays, hey.
The hair samples matched. Yougot them, captain. And Tracy
calls Nick and tells him todetain Manning. Rhys goes, call

(01:17:12):
your partner. Tell him to detainManning.
We're coming with a warrant. No,Joe. Not you. You're not
supposed to be here. It's fine.
I get it. He needed to be theone that got him.

Matt (01:17:24):
Yeah.

Rachel (01:17:24):
And it's fine. And so Randy Manning Manning spots the
police lights as he's leavingthe hotel, and he sees Nick come
in and then Joe come in behindhim. And he's like, oh, shit.

Matt (01:17:36):
And then he just team.

Rachel (01:17:38):
Yeah. He just So

Matt (01:17:39):
he's like, okay. This is this is not Reese personally

Rachel (01:17:44):
Yeah. This is

Matt (01:17:45):
confronting me. This is an official police activity.

Rachel (01:17:48):
Uh-oh. They got something. Yeah. That's what's
happening. And so Tracy goes tochase him, and Nick actually
holds Tracy back, and he's like,let's just work on containment.
Let's let Reese get this. Like,this Reese earned the chance to
be the one that arrests thisguy.

Matt (01:18:02):
Right. And then we get some vampire powers that
actually, like, add to the thecharacter growth.

Rachel (01:18:08):
I like this. I like this a lot because they're chasing
him well, Reese is chasing himaround the hotel, which has,
like, a lot of stairs and a lotof basements. I don't know
what's happening. It doesn'tmatter. But Nick is fucking

Matt (01:18:19):
They start out in the lobby, and then they go down,
like, 4 flights of stairs.

Rachel (01:18:23):
Yes.

Matt (01:18:24):
Okay.

Rachel (01:18:25):
And then Nick, this is my favorite part, is Nick
fucking with him? Because everytime he opens the door to get
out, Nick is waiting on theother side of the door.

Matt (01:18:32):
He keeps he's, like, shepherding

Rachel (01:18:35):
Manning.

Matt (01:18:36):
Nick is shepherding Manning, I guess, along the
clear, easy path for Reese tofollow.

Rachel (01:18:42):
Yeah. Yeah. Great. Perfect. No notes, except pan
guy, the guy who is walkingwith, like, a circular pan out
in it it's like in a comedy whenyou

Matt (01:18:54):
The slapstick.

Rachel (01:18:55):
The slapstick comedy where they run through a a pane
of glass. Right. Except it's aguy with a pan. What is he doing
there? Why is he why is he doingthat?

Matt (01:19:03):
Through the kitchens.

Rachel (01:19:04):
Okay. But they do that. I don't it doesn't matter. But
they this guy is thereexclusively for them to have
somebody to run into and make abig bang noise. And then Nick I
mean, this really gives us aclue into the fact that Nick
understands the importance ofsupporting Reese, but in not
doing it for Reese.
So, like, elevating Reese'svoice, but not in speaking for

(01:19:28):
Reese because he could havearrested this man at any time.
But what was more important wasthe fact that Reese was the one
who caught him. Right. And hesupports him in doing that. And
in the end, he's, like, shows upat the end of this hallway, and
it gets because poor Reese isnot catching up to Jordan.
So he he stops him in thehallway and delays him long

(01:19:50):
enough that Reese can catch up.And he's like, we got you,
motherfucker. It was an act ofterrorism, wasn't it? I mean, it
was terrorism. Whenever you'retrying to incite fear to create
conflict that is in factterrorism.

Matt (01:20:01):
In the community. Yeah.

Rachel (01:20:02):
Yeah. And he goes, I wish I could be there when you
meet your maker. And he goes,no. You don't, Reese. You don't
wanna meet the one who made me.
And Nick is like, dude, same.
Dude, same.

Matt (01:20:14):
I only wish I could be there when you meet your maker.
No. You don't. You don't wannameet the one who made me Joe

Rachel (01:20:26):
ever. And then they take him away, and Reese is giving a
statement to the press. And hesays that they found things in
his effects that will allow themto open up some older cases. So
he had some trophies. And, youknow, he said, I just want
everybody to know that this isthe end of a long and bitter

(01:20:48):
personal journey for me, and Iam so glad I'm finally gotten
this guy off the streets forgood.
And then we cut to Manning inlockup, and he hangs himself
after writing no justice, Joe,on the wall. Yeah. Oh, god. They
couldn't even leave us that.They were just like, sorry.

(01:21:10):
Well, you know what? It's true.Racism doesn't have a happy
ending most of the time. It'sthere's never the slam dunk you
want. The bad guy doesn't alwayslose.
That's real life, and I don'twatch TV for real life. I
definitely don't watch forevernight for real life, but, like,
I get it. So okay. And then wecome back to Nick talking to

(01:21:32):
LaCroix at the bar because he'slike, hey, LaCroix. So I was
thinking, why didn't you turnHitler?
And Lacroix goes, well, easy. Hefreaked me the fuck out. And
Nick is like, oh, heard. Yeah.No problem.

Matt (01:21:49):
He was too evil.

Rachel (01:21:51):
Yeah. And Lacroix goes, I've often wondered how the
world would be different. Imean, what if he made him into a
vampire and then he was vampireHitler? I mean, I feel like

Matt (01:22:00):
Right.

Rachel (01:22:00):
That would be worse. And then if he killed him, of
course, we don't know what wouldhappen. It kinda reminded me of
that short story collection thatwe read, the unfinished world.
Mhmm.

Matt (01:22:12):
Oh, yeah. With the

Rachel (01:22:13):
by Amber Sparks, where we we met the people whose job
it is. Like, once we invent timetravel and it's cheap and freely
available, there's an entiredepartment of people whose whose
whole job is to go back andreset the timeline every time
someone goes back

Matt (01:22:27):
to try to control.

Rachel (01:22:28):
Yeah. So, like, there's a huge problem with people just
vigilante going back and killingHitler. So they have to keep
they have to monitor histimeline and go back and stop
the

Matt (01:22:38):
people from

Rachel (01:22:38):
killing him. Yeah.

Matt (01:22:39):
The psychological damage of having to

Rachel (01:22:43):
Save the bad

Matt (01:22:44):
guy. To the tragedies

Rachel (01:22:45):
Over and over again. Yeah.

Matt (01:22:47):
Yeah.

Rachel (01:22:47):
Yeah. It was a really good story. And then he burns
the picture that Hitler gave himof him, which he had
conveniently in his pocket. Andhe just tosses it in the ashtray
at the end of the episode.

Matt (01:22:56):
He was thinking about it because he'd read that book.

Rachel (01:22:58):
And I just wanna point out that on the wall behind him,
there's a portrait of Jeanettepainted on the wall of the
raven.

Matt (01:23:04):
Oh, is that the portrait that

Rachel (01:23:06):
No.

Matt (01:23:07):
She left at Nyx?

Rachel (01:23:08):
No. It's not a hanging portrait. It's like somebody did
a mural, and Jeanette is in themural.

Matt (01:23:13):
Oh, is this over the the one that's been there?

Rachel (01:23:16):
No. It's not the naked woman over the bar Okay. Who is
still naked and still ontelevision. I guess it's fine as
long as it's a picture. I don'tknow.
No. It's like a portrait ofJennette, but it's painted
directly onto the wall. Mhmm.And it's kind of behind and to
the left of Lacroix's head onscreen, which I thought was
really interesting as like a,this is the woman who inspired

(01:23:38):
this place, that here's myhomage to her.

Matt (01:23:40):
Mhmm.

Rachel (01:23:42):
And that's the end of the episode. And now we've got 3
to go.

Matt (01:23:47):
So close to the end.

Rachel (01:23:49):
My god. I can't believe it. I can't believe we've almost
done it, and I can't believe wejust survived Jane Doe. I mean,
I know it's not a I'm not sayingit's a bad episode. It's not.
It's a challenging episode todiscuss because so much happens,
and there's some things thatjust don't translate well to
2024, and there's some thingsthat do. And a lot of it is not

(01:24:12):
something that I feel is mine totalk about, And that's why I
will, again, for the 3rd time, Iam again asking you to go
educate yourself about this bylistening to someone whose voice
has a lot greater weight in thisspace than mine does, as in the
people who actually experiencedthis.

Matt (01:24:32):
Right.

Rachel (01:24:33):
And I cannot believe that there was a television show
in 1996 that talked about thisand that we had a character like
Nick who who is portrayed assupporting Reese, but not doing
it for Reese, this definitelyfeels like the situation where

(01:24:55):
in 1990, you'd be like, well,what you need is a white
detective who everybody willbelieve to tell your story. Done
so. What's your problem? Butinstead, it's like, no. We're
going to get we are going to getNick on Reese's side, and then
he is going to support Reese'scampaign.
He's not going to take it over.

Matt (01:25:15):
Mhmm.

Rachel (01:25:16):
Because Nick has a reputation. At any point, he
could have popped in and beenlike, oh. I mean, he could have
used his privilege in a way thatthat made he could have used
what how do I fucking phrasethis? He could have used his
clout in the department to getthose investigations reopened.

(01:25:37):
But what would that say if thisdetective was able to accomplish
something that the captain whogave a firsthand account of
knowing a woman that wasmurdered by this guy and knowing
he did it, and everyone's like,oh, fucking Reese, again with
the Jordan Manning thing.
And then Nick is like, hey,guys. I think Jordan Manning did

(01:25:58):
this, and everyone was like, ohmy god. Really? It doesn't come
across the same as what we wentwith in the episode, which I
think is actually reallyprogressive. And it's
fascinating that we did this,that we did domestic abuse, and
then we did, the nature of neuroneurological differences and

(01:26:23):
whether you you need to be fixedor are you valid already for who
you are and what happens whenyou when you encourage the
narrative that they are in someway broken and they pick up on
it and it becomes like a a sensea source of trauma for them.

(01:26:45):
And that's fallen idol,obviously. And then we did, race
dynamics and systemic racism andthe the illicit of the the awful
effects of long term systemicracism on the populate. Like, 20

(01:27:05):
people never got identifiedbecause they were black women
Mhmm. And because they probablywere not given they were
probably quote less dead thanother cases. Even now we do
this.
There was that case, maybe itwas a couple years ago now,
where there's the whiteinfluencer who went missing, and
she was like a van lifeinfluencer. And she was

(01:27:27):
traveling with her boyfriend,and her boyfriend showed up back
at her house with her vanwithout her.

Matt (01:27:33):
Right.

Rachel (01:27:33):
And it was, like, storm. Gabby Petito. So for a while,
she was missing, and we werelooking for her, and they found
her body. And that was allsolved really quickly. Well, do
you know how many how manypeople of color?
How many indigenous women? Howmany how many non white people
have gone missing since then,and have you heard anything

(01:27:54):
about it? And this is why I dosometimes, I like to listen to
true crime, and, specifically, Ilike to listen to crime junkie
because they do a lot toelevate, stories that should be
told and haven't been told. So,like Mhmm. Missing and
endangered indigenous andminority women.

(01:28:16):
And, I'm just gonna leave it atthat because there's no solution
to this problem, but there isawareness of this problem, and
with awareness will comesolutions. So educate yourself.
Do not be willfully blind towhat happens in the world around
you because then how can you seeit when it happens in your own

(01:28:37):
life? Mhmm. And we grew up inthe nineties.
Do you know what we have had tounlearn? Do you know the work
we've had to put into it? AndI'm glad I did it, and I'm happy
to have done the work. I'm notcomplaining about it, but we
think of the nineties as modernand it's not. You know?
We because, oh, they kinda hadcell phones, and they kind of

(01:29:00):
like, the the media that weinteract with from the nineties
looks modern ish because now allthose styles have come back. So
we're like, oh, yeah. We're theywere no. They're not. The
sensibility sensibilities havechanged so completely from the
nineties.
I can't even express it. So,anyway, I'm just gonna leave it
at that because I have more tosay, but I'll just keep going
forever. And, again, go findI'll maybe I'll find some

(01:29:24):
podcasts and put them in theshow notes

Matt (01:29:27):
Yeah. Good idea.

Rachel (01:29:28):
That you can go and listen to that are talking about
this that go and educateyourself. So I'm gonna leave it
there.

Matt (01:29:35):
Alright.

Rachel (01:29:36):
Until next time, friends.

Matt (01:29:37):
Bye.

Rachel (01:29:38):
Bye.

All Episodes

Forever Knight (Season 3 Ep 19) - "Jane Doe"

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Forever Knight (Season 3 Ep 19) - "Jane Doe"