December 3, 2024 • 59 mins
Natural to the human mind: A conversation about fear.
In this episode of the comfy chairs, Kate sits down with Utkarsh, a coach and consultant, to explore fear as both a challenge and a catalyst for growth. Together, they unpack how fear shapes leadership and personal growth, from navigating rejection and failure to embracing vulnerability with resilience.
Utkarsh shares his journey of transforming fear into action and highlights the power of anchoring ourselves in personal values like growth and love. Kate reflects on the role of joy as a counterbalance to fear, offering practical insights on how leaders can cultivate courage, seek feedback with grace, and find joy in everyday moments.
This conversation delves into the cultural and societal pressures that magnify fear, the value of empathy, and how leaders can foster a growth mindset to ignite positive change. Tune in for a reflective dialogue about embracing change, staying grounded in your values, and living a life aligned with purpose and joy.
- Connect with Utkarsh on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/utkarsh-narang/
- Visit his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsPFWPXiS6agGDuSDcluPXg
- View his TEDx talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aj0btxnBLo
Got something on your mind? A tricky situation at work? A leadership topic you’re curious about? Share your questions here: https://www.one23ltd.com/comfyhq
Additional resources about fear and/or mentioned during our conversation:
- Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, by Carol Dweck
https://www.instagram.com/one23ltd/
Music by Geoff Harvey from Pixabay
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 Limited.
(00:09):
I'm Kate, your host.
About 10 or 15 years ago, I had the chance to complete a personal resilience profile
and receive some coaching to help me understand my results.
This instrument focused on approaches and attitudes towards change, and one comment
(00:30):
I received during the coaching session has really stayed with me.
You're really brave.
You don't necessarily like change, but you dive right in anyway.
The coach was right.
I'm very human, and that I do indeed feel fear when I encounter a change.
We all do to some extent.
(00:52):
I'm fond of the phrase, feel the fear and do it anyway for this fact.
Because fear is a very real part of the human condition.
It accompanies us during change.
It weighs us down even when we want to take action, and it can take control of our decision-making
abilities.
(01:14):
If we know that fear is essentially inevitable, wouldn't it be great to leverage it, to learn
how to use it to our advantage, and come out on the other side of fear stronger, wiser,
and ready to face it again?
I think the answer is yes.
And I think that while this is challenging, it is entirely doable.
(01:38):
We can be brave every day.
My guest today says that he has learned to use fear to drive him towards change, and
he is committed to helping others learn to do the same.
This is why I'm excited for our conversation today about fear.
(02:01):
Welcome to the comfy chairs.
Karsh, thank you so much for joining me.
I'm really glad to have you here and looking forward to our conversation.
I always like to take a few minutes at the start of each episode, though, to let my guest
introduce themselves.
So please.
Thank you, Kate, for having me here.
The chair actually is very comfortable, so I'm going to enjoy this conversation with
(02:23):
you today.
Just to briefly maybe introduce myself, I call myself a phenomenalist, and I think we'll
have the folks wait for a few minutes to get the definition of it.
But what I've done over the years of my 40 years of life on this planet is that I've
always chased joy, chased happiness over the real, the worldly definition of success,
(02:47):
so to say.
And so in terms of my professional achievements, I've moved from being a physical therapist
and that's a good one to filming and editing for a Columbia Business School professor,
corporations and sales.
And then middle of the pandemic, I decided there was time to ignite some neurons.
And so I started a company called Ignited Neurons where I coach and I'm a consultant.
(03:09):
And my favorite and the best role that I play every single day is that I have a father of
two and husband to one.
Excellent.
Good.
Yeah, you have such an interesting background.
People that do physical therapy, the learning and the ability to teach people how to do
things is such a great model as well.
(03:30):
So it's no surprise to hear that you've ended up in coaching and learning as well.
But I feel like we're talking about kind of an unusual topic, this idea of fear to begin
with, but also fear, something that we, I think we broadly don't talk about openly as
(03:53):
being an important part of how we learn.
There are lots of flavors of fear is how I think about it, from the day to day to the
big existential ones, and because here at the comfy chairs we're concerned with learning
and leading, I'd like us to start by talking about what are some of the most relevant fears
(04:19):
for leaders?
What do they encounter in that unique role of leading people that's important for them
to be aware of and to address?
Yeah, I think fear is a very intriguing concept to me as well, Kate, and I'll just give a
little bit of background where this whole conversation emerged from.
And so I was about to, I was asked to give a TEDx talk here in Australia, and I live
(04:43):
in the future.
It's about six or five AM my time.
I'm on my Wednesday.
But as I was thinking about giving that TEDx talk, I was thinking about courage, and I
thought that, oh, I'm so courageous that I took all these career leaps.
My wife and I, we decided to move to Australia one year ago from India, again, halfway across
(05:04):
the world, a continent we had never been to.
And so I was always focused on courage.
And then what I really do always is when I'm trying to grow and develop myself, is that
I create like a small WhatsApp group where I put people who are very close friends, where
I feel that if I openly share something, I don't feel this fear of being judged, which
(05:26):
we'll speak more about it.
And so out of those six, seven people, one of them said, because you're focusing on
courage, but isn't fear that's more natural to the human mind?
And I was like, that's an intriguing question.
And as I delve deeper into it, I realize that fear is something that we're almost born
with.
Courage is something that we have to learn, but fear is something that it's a primitive
(05:48):
response, it's a protective response that's going to kind of save us from fire as we stay
in that zone.
And so all my ideas started to then think about like, when you move from one career to the
other, there was fear.
When you did your best, there was this fear that people would know that you're an imposter.
(06:09):
And so I think that's where this whole idea of being driven by fear came about to me.
And as you very thoughtfully asked this question about leaders, I think leaders have a lot
of challenges because it's always when you're a leader, you're put on this pedestal.
And it's almost thought that there's this big halo behind your head and you're shining
(06:30):
like the angels have descended from heavens above.
But leaders go through their own fears, fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of what's
going to happen in the future, the unknown.
Fear of sometimes also being vulnerable to their people.
And so fear is a challenge that I think they grapple with every single day.
(06:52):
And it's not that they're fearless, it's just that they learn to act despite the fears.
Yeah, I think that's such an important distinction.
Courage is not about lack of fear by any stretch.
Just having the skills, the mindsets.
(07:17):
I don't know if grit is the right word here, but I'll use it to take action despite the
uncertainty.
And you went down what I kind of feel is an unfortunate laundry list of the things that
we can naturally fear.
Fear, rejection, vulnerability, being found out, that classic imposter syndrome piece.
(07:44):
I think it's important for leaders to understand that those are definitely not unique to the
role of leadership.
They're just often amplified by being under scrutiny like you talked about, being on display
all the time.
I love that you had somebody in your life that called out that courage is not the natural
(08:05):
state.
And I was thinking in my preparation about, if there's fear, what's its opposite?
I don't think it's courage or bravery.
I actually think it's joy.
And we can get a little bit more into my wise and wherefores of that.
But I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.
(08:27):
But if we're in agreement, what are ways that we can bring more joy into our lives to counterbalance
the natural fear?
Yeah.
As you say that, Kit, I think it's going to take a lot of unlearning and a lot of unwiring
to get to that.
And why I say that is, and I'll speak mostly to an in-depth Indian culture upbringing because
(08:54):
I'm an Indian who was born to do doctors.
And so there's always this societal pressure.
And I think it's globally, but I'm just going to speak to Indian and love for you to add
if how you feel about it happened in the United States.
I think what happens is that since the very young age, we're always asked to compete with
(09:16):
each other.
We're always asked to be first on that, but I still be first in the class, do well in
everything that we're trying to achieve.
And we forget that sometimes there's just joy in what we're trying to do as kids.
And I go through this challenge every single day where my eldest son, for example, he's
(09:38):
13 and he plays the drums and he wants to play basketball and he wants to play table
tennis.
And a part of me is thinking that if you're investing your time into something new, then
you better become world class on that.
And then I pause myself.
That is that really important because then you're going to steal the joy from his life
(09:59):
and then ask him to compete on those aspects.
And so instead of asking him to do that, can you just not let them play and have fun and
enjoy and just do it for the sake of it?
And I think when you put this idea that how the opposite of fear is joy, what comes to
mind is that we have a primitive brain, right?
(10:21):
When we are going through the imposter syndrome, when we're going through this fear of failure,
rejection, uncertainty, or when you're, say, leaving a job and trying to become an entrepreneur
or starting a podcast, the brain is going to tell you, because you're going to fail,
because you're going to go bankrupt, because you're no good, you're an imposter, you're
stupid, you're dumb, and this and that.
(10:42):
And the brain is going to do all of that.
But the question is what's stopping us from asking our brain, but brain, what if I succeed?
And that just sparks the joy.
That just sparks the joy.
The inner critic is such a harsh, harsh mistress.
Yeah.
And it does just suck our energy out to listen to that voice saying you could fail.
(11:09):
Not even you are going to, but you could fail.
I loved, loved, loved hearing about your sons and the different perspective coming in another
culture.
I think at the end of the day, people are people, but where we grow up and how we're
raised impacts our perspective and the, you know, I'm, I'm a middle class middle American
(11:38):
and very fortunate.
I have a lot of privilege in my life and there was a lot of pressure to perform scholastically,
especially, you know, honor society and gifted programs and you name it, a standard joke
with some of my friends that we came up through the quote unquote gifted and talented programs
(12:03):
is that like a Halloween costume for us could be just to dress everyday normal.
And when people ask you, what are you supposed to be?
A lot of things.
I see answer.
This potential became a burden for us.
But I got to thinking as I was listening to you that we, we oftentimes at least in English,
(12:30):
we conflate the words and the concepts associated with happiness and joy.
And I think it's really important to make a distinction between those and it's part
of my rationale for why I think joy serves to balance if not negate fear.
(12:51):
So happiness, happy and happenstance have the same root words.
So it tells us it's with happenings with instances.
Our happiness is entirely circumstantial.
It's based on what's going on around us.
You know, did you get enough sleep?
Are you hungry?
All of that type of things as well as stuff entirely beyond our control.
(13:16):
Here in English, joy and the idea of a boy, a buoy or boy, every pronounce it, because
there are regional distinctions there, something that sits in the water and constantly floats
and is able to stay above the waves and operate.
(13:39):
So joy is this thing that allows us to float regardless of our circumstances.
That's something I learned in a church setting.
And when I look around at my life and the times where my sense of myself and my reactions
(14:03):
to the events around me, when I am concerned with happiness over joy, I do experience more
fear.
It's been about a year and a half ago since I lost a job that I'd held for a number of
years and that time was absolutely saturated in fear of not knowing what was going to happen
(14:26):
in addition to the natural shame and embarrassment that comes in that circumstance.
As an intrapreneur, there are a lot of opportunities to be afraid.
But when I think about, in my case, when I think about what is my purpose, why am I
doing this, what do I believe I can contribute, that is something that gives me joy.
(14:54):
It gives me lightness despite the waves.
And I think that's what I would want for listeners, leaders, and for their teams as
a result is that we're seeking out ways to connect to purpose, to have the experiences
of joy at work because life is full of fear.
(15:18):
How can we balance it?
That's fascinating and I think we're trying to explore the unexplored almost as I'm listening
to you.
I don't know how this will sit with you, but how I feel about joy and I again tell this
to myself, to my family and to my coachees, is that when for breakfast, I'm having a banana,
(15:47):
just the sweetness of that fruit and just the ability and the capability of buying it
and having it in that moment should bring me net joy, should bring me so much joy that
I'm full of that flavor.
And that to me can happen in every moment.
And a few years ago, Kate, I started this project called Project Happiness where my purpose
(16:11):
was to improve my photography skills and so I would go on to the streets, but I love talking
to people so I go on to the streets and ask people, what makes you happy?
What is happiness according to you?
And I'd have these long conversations with them and the first conversation I had with
was with myself.
(16:32):
And my statement in that moment was that this ability to feel is joy.
Whether you're feeling pain, whether you're feeling fulfilled, whether you're feeling
heat or cold, you're able to feel so many different emotions and things that should
bring you joy.
(16:54):
And I think it all comes back to happiness to me, it's a state of mind done over time,
but joy is in every moment.
And so earlier, one example again, when I would have as a leader, when I was leading
a team of about 15, 20 people, I would think that having a conversation where there's a
lot of conflict, I should be fearful of that conversation.
(17:17):
But then I started to see that as an opportunity to grow and there started to be joy in that
conversation.
That how can I best serve myself?
I put myself at the center.
How can I best serve the other person and the purpose of the organization to make sure
that I be my best in that moment?
(17:38):
And I think just that challenge brings a lot of joy.
So for those who are in relationships, you would have many conflicted conversations maybe
with your spouses or your partners.
Earlier, I used to see them as, oh, we're going to have this conversation again.
Really?
Do we really need it?
(17:58):
Yes.
Yes, we are.
Yes, we do.
Yeah.
And so now I find joy in that.
How can I be my best to my partner because it's both of us in it together against the
challenge?
Yes.
I think these are shifts that come over time.
And once they do, it's almost like there's no looking back.
(18:22):
Yeah, I want to clarify one thing.
I feel like I have to justify something I said.
I want to be very clear.
I think happiness is awesome.
The feeling of being happy is one of the best things that we can experience.
And I know from my own experience, it goes away.
(18:43):
That's why I think about joy over happiness as being the goal.
And I love.
So I have to admit, you almost lost me at Banana because I hate bananas.
Like I am the person that can't stand them.
It's like, oh, oh, wait, listen to what he's saying.
(19:04):
Ignore that.
The connecting yourself to the simple gifts around you and in your life and seeing even
things like conflict, whether it's at work or in your relationships, in your marriage,
that you have the privilege of getting to participate in that.
Again, it's a shift.
(19:25):
It can be seismic for some people, but understanding that every day that I get to show up and do
this thing that I've chosen, even if the particular circumstance may not be my choice, that's
a source of joy.
And it quiets the fear, doesn't it?
(19:49):
I think conflict is a really good place for us to spend some time because that's something
most people hate.
You say the word confrontation and you can just see that seizing up.
Yeah, I would.
Yeah, that's something I'd like us to spend some time on how, just like you said, it's
(20:12):
an opportunity to take that fear and learn from it.
What are some of the practices that you coach and advocate?
Yeah, I think what happens when there's conflict is that the brain starts to take that on as
a stimulant that you're kind of afraid of or your natural sense of being is almost like
(20:40):
wanting to shift that.
And it's like in primitive times when there'll be like a thunderstorm or when we were sleeping
in caves, there would be fear of having a lion come and eat us.
I think conflict has reached that state for the mind where we hopefully won't have a lion
come and eat us, but we'll have conflict with partners, with leaders, with peers, with managers,
(21:04):
with colleagues.
And when those conflicts start to emerge, we're almost on the defensive and we're fearful
of what might happen, what might emerge.
Raw truths might come out and all of that starts to happen in our brain.
And I think a great reframe to that is that, A, we have to stop kind of locking horns with
(21:27):
each other.
That to me is like step one, that you've got to not think of you versus them, but it's
you and them versus a problem.
And I think that's a massive shift if people can bring that on because when you're as,
say a leader and your direct report, when you're getting into this moment of conflict,
(21:49):
ultimately, your core objective is the same, which is your growth and the organization's
growth.
And so you're standing together in it.
So I think that's the first one that instead of doing this, you versus me, it's us versus
the problem.
That's a big shift.
The second I think is not letting those emotions cloud our brain because once the emotional
(22:11):
energy is high, whether that's anger, whether that's frustration, whether that's anxiety,
whether that's fear or joy, whatever emotions we might want to kind of bring in here.
But as soon as those emotions are high, then we're not thinking logically about that situation.
And a lack of logic leads to a heightened amount of conflict.
And I think it's very important to just take a deep breath.
(22:33):
If you cannot do anything else, we don't want you to go through big techniques of emotional
mastery or developing that high EQ.
But if you can just take a deep breath and be like, I'm going to be here fully present
trying to solve this.
That's the second one.
And the third thing that comes up is when we get into a conflict, we start with this
(22:54):
attachment that Kate and I are in a conflict.
I have to win here.
And as soon as you start with that attachment that I have to win here, then it's all a
downward slope from there and it's going to be a downward spiral.
And the whole shift, I think, comes from this energy that, again, we're going back to that
(23:15):
same point that let's find joy in the conflict by learning and growing from it, rather than
fearing what can happen.
The reframe that it's not me versus you, but us versus a problem is so powerful, so
(23:36):
powerful because, one, I have a lot of thoughts on this.
I'm going to see if I can organize them and be succinct.
Just like I talked about, there are root meanings for happiness and joy that can give us better
understanding of them.
I think confrontation is another subject that gets a bad rap.
(23:58):
And if we looked at what the word itself means, it would be easier to understand and manage
it.
You know, Khan is with front is face.
When we confront something, simply, it means simply we are facing it.
(24:19):
And if it's not, I'm not confronting the person, but together we are facing a problem.
That's a powerful way to preserve relationships and get to better solutions.
I think the work, especially for people in leadership, it's things like taking a deep
(24:44):
breath.
It is training yourself to have triggers, if you will, road signs that tell you, here
is an opportunity for me to behave this way, to shift my mindset that way.
And in this conversation, the scope of what we're talking about, the trigger is the feeling
(25:07):
of fear.
So how do we increase our awareness and develop the habit of, I feel fear, what am I going
to choose to do with it?
What do you think?
(25:30):
I think the choice is mine, right?
The choice to respond to, we can use all different words, but that choice is mine.
And so I loved how you said the confront.
I think that's a really powerful way to think about this.
But I think we've got to, and taking a breath, we've spoken about that at length.
(25:54):
But I think ultimately what's important is that we understand that how we respond in
a situation is completely our choice.
And I can be frustrated and irritated and respond with that energy, or I can choose
to respond with a more caring and loving energy.
(26:14):
And I think what really it boils down to is like, I think the ego also comes into the
picture, that we feel like we got to be right.
I have a point to prove, but do you really?
There are eight billion people on the planet.
I often say that we're eight billion perceptions, all trying to prove that my perception is
(26:36):
better than yours, but is it really?
And does my perception really matter?
And I think we get to attach to who we are, what we say and what we do.
And once you start to distance yourself from that, that who you are, to more, more fuller
and more fulfilled who you are, then I think conflict resolution, just being able to use
(27:04):
fear as a fuel, all that.
And I know we're all over the place almost, but we're also trying to bring us back to
that path that we're on, so that listeners derive maximum value.
And one thing I often say is that the ROI of our words should also be really high, that
(27:26):
they should communicate the message strongly and quickly.
But that's where I'll pause.
You're giving me too much to think about, I'm having all these awkward pauses while
I process.
I love it.
This is why I edit.
Talking about ego in this space and identity, that is such a source, I think, in the modern
(27:54):
world of fear.
We discussed impostor syndrome a little bit, and that's, people are going to see through
what I think I'm trying to be or deal.
I want to be very cautious here.
Here in the States, our modern political landscape and frankly, just the state of civilized discourse
(28:24):
is pretty broken these days.
And I think part of it is because so many people, for whatever reason, we, I won't even
say they, we have linked our beliefs, political, social, what have you, we've linked them
(28:44):
to our own identities.
So when they are challenged, it's a deep-seated fear that we experience, and it's made it
nearly impossible for us to have, again, discourse, to be civil with each other and disagree.
(29:04):
And I think if we could somehow identify that for ourselves, societally, that you are not
your ideas, and when an idea is challenged, it does not undermine your intrinsic worth.
(29:26):
We don't have to argue, we don't have to fight about this because this is not an attack on
you.
And it's interesting to me, as again, here in the States, we're nearing an election,
to think about how much of the way we act right now is driven by our fears.
(29:51):
That's not a question, I don't have an answer, it's just an observation that raising the
topic of identity during this conversation is, it's a big part of it.
I think how I feel about this kid is that, I think it's almost like a tussle, a churn,
(30:15):
a very rigorous movement that society has to go through.
And every society goes through this kind of a phase at different times in their existence.
But my hope is, whatever will be the outcome of the election, but my hope is that we as
humanity come out a little bit more centered, a little bit more learned, a little bit more
(30:40):
empathetic to say that, a little bit more human maybe, just like, I think what's happening
and it's across the world because it's again, our need for power, our need to prove ourselves,
right, our need to say that we're the best in so many ways is overwhelming, so many other
(31:06):
aspects of being human.
But the counter thought that my brain almost immediately presents with Kate is that, Baruchakash,
how would you present yourself, how would you market yourself in a world that's full
of noise?
If your message is important, how will you raise above the noise?
I don't have an answer to that because I'm still working towards that.
(31:26):
But I think, yeah, and we've spoken about identity and I'll give you an example.
This was a few years ago, I was in a boardroom setup and we were having this conversation
about the strategy of the company that I was working at.
And these are my early days of becoming like global leader at that point.
(31:46):
And the word DEVELOP is a common word that I would use and my pronunciation at that time
I think was developed.
I don't even remember what my pronunciation was.
And in that moment, a team member who had studied in the US, they said, but you're pronouncing
it incorrectly, it should be developed.
(32:10):
And there were people in the room and I appreciated them for that statement because it made me
a better person.
It made me a better leader.
No, I could have retaliated.
Eight people in the room, what the hell is wrong with you?
You're like my direct report and you're correcting my pronunciation.
But if I walk in with that behavior, then the message I'm sending is that if you have
(32:34):
a thought, you should not feel safe in raising that thought.
If you're a thought, then let's that thought because my thought is stronger than yours.
But that's not a culture that I want to build.
I don't build a culture that's more open.
I apologize to my son 10 days ago because I asked him not to make a mango shake because
(32:55):
it was too cold.
But that's important.
That's me being human in that moment.
And yes, I make errors and yes, I'm vulnerable and yes, I want to build safety for you.
And yes, I will overcome the fear of trying to be perfect all the time.
Another fear.
I just have to wonder sometimes at our condition as humans that we spoke about, I like using
(33:24):
the term primitive for us that we have this primitive brain.
Instead of lions, I would say saber-toothed tigers when I've taught on this subject.
But it's a big scary, right?
And it's so fascinating to me that the brain is so effective it really hasn't changed that
(33:47):
much over time.
But that does mean with all of the changes around us that there's primitive life and
then in modernity, all the different things that we have available to us and the ways
we live are so different, but our brains cannot distinguish threat from threat.
(34:07):
And the vast majority of us will never encounter a wild animal literally in the wild.
And yet we still have that amygdala, adrenaline response when we encounter something that
we perceive as threat.
(34:29):
And it's ironic to me that here in the modern world that does not serve us well.
And in fact, the less tightly we hold on to the things that we think protect us, like
identity and ego, the less likely we are to be afraid.
(34:50):
That if as a leader, I can loosen my hold on being right, loosen my fear of being wrong,
how much easier is it?
I have for years taught about feedback, you know, giving and receiving it.
(35:10):
And I'm not great at it myself, but I've put a lot of effort into being open to feedback
when I receive it.
I failed more times than I haven't.
I will be very honest about that.
But I do remember once a high level executive asked me some really challenging questions
about something I had proposed.
(35:32):
And I said, those are great points.
I appreciate it.
And later he's like, I've never had anybody respond to feedback that way.
Like, well, I'm here to do this work well.
It wasn't about my ego, and that was an exemplary example.
Plenty of times I didn't do that.
But again, when we can go in curious, open, and releasing what we think protects us, so
(36:04):
much more peace and joy.
All the time.
Yeah.
All the time.
And it's very simple.
I'll tell you how all that the stimuli brings the saber tooth or the lion or the or the
feedback, whatever it is, these are all just electrical impulses in our brain.
(36:24):
Nothing more than that.
And I'm not going to take anything more than that.
The weightage that I'm going to give every stimuli that comes to me is that of an electrical
impulse, something that ignites my neurons.
And that's it.
I don't have to make it so important that, oh, this statement by this person in this
(36:45):
situation, now my reputation is destroyed.
For this statement from this person in this moment, and now I'm on top of the world.
And I think, and I know I'm bringing some level of spirituality in here, but that's
something that really grown with as a person where there's this Indian mythological book
(37:12):
called the Bhagavad Gita.
And what it says there is that be non attached.
Be non attached to the outcome.
Do this as you all you can control is your action, your impulse and everything else will
be taken joy.
Joy is where we'll get to.
There is definitely a place for spirituality here in the comfy chairs.
(37:35):
We've talked about sacred work and whether you call it spirituality or faith or religion,
that is part of our experience as humans, even for people that like a skew religion,
listening to things bigger than we are matters and I was raised in a Christian faith, not
(38:04):
in Hindu or other, but I've studied those and I think what's so important for us, it
kind of comes back to this idea.
I think of can we be empathetic that we're all just trying as hard as we can, so whether
you believe in letting go, whether you believe in the fabric of a particular faith practice,
(38:34):
connecting that to understand, all major religions have a similar concept that seeking out something
greater than you are is a path to a better life.
There is something innate in us that understands that we need purpose, the word I use for it.
(38:59):
The mathematician Blaise Pascal, one of my very favorite quotes ever about almost anything,
in the heart of every man is a God shaped vacuum and in this case it's man as in mankind,
not just males, that we all have a hole in us that we want to fill with something sacred.
(39:24):
And unfortunately if we're not filling it with the better things, fear can creep in.
When we first met, part of that conversation that I really enjoyed was talking about personal
values and I feel like we're very much in that space when you talk about things that
(39:45):
are of faith or sacred to you, what matters to me, what do I value?
What part do you think values play in managing and leveraging fear?
I think this is a great segue into this conversation about values and they're very close to my
(40:08):
heart.
At the start of this conversation I used a word called Phenumbolist for myself.
What that really means, Kate, is that I'm just a tightrope walker and we all are.
Because this life that we're walking on, it's a tightrope and it's very unique to all of
(40:28):
us.
We were up there maybe 60, 100 feet above the ground, there's fear in every step.
And it's almost like it's a challenge in every moment.
And I think what the values do to me is they provide that anchor.
When the wire starts to wobble, the values provide that steady state.
(40:51):
They provide a guiding path.
They provide that light.
They provide maybe that balancing beam, whatever we might want to call it.
And over the years I've done a lot of work on myself to build up the values but over
the last five or six years now they've been very consistent and constant.
And the values that I have are discipline, excellence, freedom, growth and love.
(41:18):
And when you're able to live a life that's based on values and your values are very unique,
so find yours, you don't have to use mine to all our lessons.
When you have these values, they'll allow you to find that joy.
They'll allow you to find learning.
They'll allow you to use that fear as fuel rather than let that fear limit you.
(41:45):
And it's a special place.
It's a special place.
I think it is so important for us to ask ourselves what do we value.
Even just the question can be enough to trigger being able to identify them.
There are definitely lots of practices out there to do it.
(42:05):
You and I could probably both lecture for the next 30 to 50 minutes about how to identify
your own values but asking yourself what matters to me.
What thumbprint do I want to leave on the world around me?
Those are so important to anchor us.
(42:28):
Yours you have this beautiful long list.
Mine are much simpler because I need it to be easy so I can remember creativity, humor
and grace.
And I think some of it connects back to what we've been talking about.
There are so many opportunities for us to find new ways to think, to be kind to each
(42:52):
other and to find enjoyment in the world around us.
And when I remember that I value creativity, humor and grace, it significantly impacts
the way I behave.
My choices, my treatment of other people, decisions about my business, all the things.
(43:22):
Everything.
And it's like, what I was just thinking about, Kate, you and I are speaking about this.
It's like there's no manual to life.
And we're bloody lost some days I feel.
Again comes back to the noise.
You see, I work with coaches and they come to me saying that we're very distracted and
(43:49):
I'm like, what happened and what's going on?
And they're like, there's this app called Instagram that will spend 45 minutes on and
I'm like, who's stopping you from moving that app away from your phone?
It's a choice, but it's a hard choice.
And so we're very lost in all that's happening.
To me, these values act as compass.
(44:11):
They help you create that path that you can tread upon that you can choose and that that
just becomes your way of life.
You know, it's interesting.
Yeah, social media is a choice.
It's also a way for us to ignore our fears.
(44:36):
Distraction is not just something that's pulling my attention away from me.
It's also when I choose to be distracted.
And when we find ourselves, whether it's actively doom scrolling or just getting into TikTok
ad nauseam and not paying attention to the amount of time, it's a sign for us that I
(45:01):
may be avoiding something.
Is this, is this boredom?
Is this garden variety distraction?
Or is this fear that's driving me?
It's a really important question for us to ask ourselves.
Yeah, that is so powerful.
(45:23):
I've been, I've been having a debate with myself about my relationship with social
media in the last few days.
So that feels really relevant.
For me, it's, I don't really like it, but I know that it's an important part of modern
business, the type of work you and I do.
(45:44):
And some of it's what, what are you afraid of, Kate?
Why is this a problem for you right now?
You have the numbers to prove that it matters.
And I don't want to do it.
And who do you want to be?
I think that's the question that I asked.
Yeah, that's a great.
The creator or the consumer.
(46:07):
That is such a good question overall.
And the, in those moments where we feel fear and we need bravery, we need courage, asking
who do I want to be in this moment?
Your answer is going to tell you what to do.
Absolutely.
The question I have asked myself at times where I've not been entirely satisfied with
(46:29):
my own behavior is, will you look back on this and be proud of how you acted?
What do you want to be is so much more urgent.
I may adopt that.
I feel like our conversation about stimuli and attachment and identity, we've been circling
(46:56):
around a lot of the concepts associated with growth mindset, which is a real common way
for us to talk about learning in the workplace and learning workplaces as well.
I think there is a lot of richness in the concepts and practices of growth mindsets,
(47:19):
the approach that I can learn and grow in this conversation about overcoming fear.
So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
And obviously I want to get onto the topic of how leaders can instill a growth mindset.
I think to me it's almost like you can either be born with it or you can grow yourself into
(47:46):
a growth mindset.
So both possibilities are open.
I think the big idea here is, again, it comes back to the identity, the ego, the attachment,
is that when I'm given a stimuli that pushes me to change, am I going to be accepting of
it and learn from it and grow from it?
Or am I going to resist it?
(48:08):
And I think the growth mindset as Professor Dweck kind of, when she coined the term or
thought about it, it's all about that feedback and failure and criticism.
It can actually make you better and what's stopping you from being better.
And that just simplifies the whole equation.
(48:30):
I think something very simple that people can do is to just find opportunities to learn
something new every single day.
And it could be as small as like one quotation, one data point, one thing that pertains to
(48:51):
their role as a leader.
It could be anything and everything that works for them, but just spend that five minutes.
It's almost like you're going to the gym to work out on your biceps or your triceps or
whatever muscle you want to choose.
Just go to the learning gym, so to say, and learn that one new thing.
Seek feedback.
(49:11):
That's a great way.
As leaders, we love giving feedback.
But how often do we go and ask them?
I'm like, do you have some feedback for me?
It's almost like asking the same-toothed tiger to come and eat you alive.
Yeah, I do think feedback is a very relevant subtopic of what we're talking about because
(49:39):
there's, I think, being great at feedback is a skilled bundle.
There's obviously the giving good feedback that's formative, that's compassionate, that's
clear and actionable.
Then there's the skill of asking for feedback because there are good ways to do that and
(50:05):
not so effective ways.
Then there's the skill of how I receive feedback.
Am I gracious?
Am I grateful?
Do I listen to the words and not judge the person that's been brave enough to give me
feedback?
Then when it's all said and done, there's actually applying the feedback that you choose to take
(50:32):
into consideration.
Everybody can be great at receiving feedback, but they never change.
We put a lot of fear around the actions associated with feedback.
So many leaders hold themselves back because they think it's hard.
When really what it is, it's kind of scary because it's a form of confrontation.
(50:57):
Right?
But I think it's something that we need to, what I feel about this kid is that the human
body is changing every single day.
We started this conversation about 56 minutes ago and you and I are changed after this conversation.
People who are listening to this are changed after this conversation.
(51:17):
So change is very, again, as fear, right?
Change is very innate to the human soul and mind and body.
Our body changes every now and then.
Every cell in our body is replaced with a new one every few weeks, I think, if the research
is right.
Now that if change is so innate to us, why are we fearing the change?
(51:39):
I have a theory about this actually and have had for a number of years.
I think we fear change because for all the reasons that you've just talked about, in
our heart of hearts, in our deep lizard brains, change reminds us that we're going to die.
(52:01):
As soon as we're born, our bodies start to change.
We grow the age and the natural outcome of that is death.
So anything that's a significant change beyond just the slow aging of ourselves, it puts
(52:24):
our mortality in the spotlight and so we resist it.
And this is one of the reasons I think anytime we enter into necessary change as leaders
when we are leading change, our first job is compassion because it's going to be hard,
(52:47):
even if it's a good change, even if it's a change that people asked for, we're still
going to be afraid because the vast majority of us fear death and that's what our body,
our bodies, it's written into us to see change as a death process.
That's my theory.
It's fascinating where you're taking this conversation.
(53:09):
You know how I feel about this?
You and I are having this conversation.
We're separated by, I don't know, 10,000 miles, maybe even more.
Multiple options in the middle of and we cannot reach each other in person right now.
Like even the travel time is like 20 hours.
And so this could be like the last conversation you and I have because after this I could
(53:32):
die and you could die.
And a child who's born sometimes by age five, they have something that does not let them
go beyond that age.
And so the day we are born, it's written that there will be a day we'll die and so our mortality
is, I mean, 100% sure.
(53:53):
And so why do we fear death then?
And to me it's like, it's going to come to you someday.
And so why don't we spend every single day becoming a little better, finding joy, using
our fears to fuel us to go to the next level and living by our values.
(54:15):
I couldn't agree more.
I think, yeah, instead of focusing on the fear that's just going to come because we're
wired to keep ourselves safe.
So we fear the things around us.
And there's a lot to be afraid of in our world.
There's a lot of scary stuff out there.
(54:37):
It's not even the saber-toothed tigers, right?
There are a lot of people to be afraid of.
There are events and pandemics and catastrophes.
And that's what we could spend all of our time doing is living in that fear.
Or we can see it as a way to learn and to be more deeply connected to each other because
(55:02):
it's a common experience.
It is.
I love that I am getting to have this conversation with somebody on the other side of the world.
It is a wonder.
It is.
It is.
You live in an age of wonders, don't you?
(55:22):
And as we record this, I'm on September 4th.
It's about 7 a.m.
Gate.
Yeah.
The future looks amazing.
The future looks amazing.
I can't wait.
I am not afraid of it.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
As we start to kind of cycle down, I would love to hear some of your final thoughts.
Is there anything that you really want to highlight, spotlight for listeners, any insights
(55:50):
that you've gained through the course of the conversation?
I think to each its own, that's the first statement that comes to mind.
And then the second thing is this life that we've been given, this ability to experience
life, the joys, the pains, the emotions, the sabertooth tigers, everything that we were
(56:15):
experiencing.
I think it's very precious, this human life.
And I'm going to request and nudge and be assertive that everyone who's listened for
the last 68 minutes, make a life that you can be proud of that serves others.
That's unconditionally loving.
(56:36):
That's, yeah, there's so much joy in every cell of your body, even though you don't like
a banana, but eating that banana can still bring you joy.
And so one thing I say is ignite that spark.
You're a beautiful spark within you.
Ignite it and turn it into a fire and then help others ignite it because that's how we
(56:58):
grow.
That's the only way we will take humanity to a better place than how we entered it.
I think the only thing I would add, I'm drawn back to the metaphor that you gave about being
(57:20):
tight roadblockers in no small part because I'm very afraid of heights.
That is something that is a huge challenge for me to be a pie.
And that is life.
We are constantly faced with things that we have sometimes inexplicable fear of.
(57:45):
But joy, our values, our community as well, those can serve to balance us, even in the
particularly scary moments.
I don't know about you, but I feel a lot of peace.
I was about to say that and even the best part of our conversation and I want our listeners
(58:07):
to focus on that is the pauses and the silence.
I call that the golden silence gate.
So thank you for creating that space.
Oh yeah, definitely.
This has been such a pleasure, sir.
I'm going to make certain that your LinkedIn profile, a couple of other links so people
(58:29):
can find information about you.
Is your TED Talk available?
Is it something?
Absolutely.
I will ensure that that's available for people to watch too.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
And I just thank you so much for your time all the way on the other side of the world
in tomorrow.
Yeah, you'll get to tomorrow and it'll be beautiful.
(58:51):
Thank you, Kate, for this space and this conversation.
I've had the joy of being on many podcasts.
This has been the most peaceful one.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Oh, yay.
That's one of the things I want when people encounter me is for there to be a certain
amount of calm so that makes my heart very light.
(59:12):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and share it with others who
are passionate about leading and learning.
And don't forget if you have a question for our new comfy HQ series beginning in January
(59:33):
2025, I'd love to hear it.
Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation.
Until next time.
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 Limited.
(00:09):
I'm Kate, your host.
About 10 or 15 years ago, I had the chance to complete a personal resilience profile
and receive some coaching to help me understand my results.
This instrument focused on approaches and attitudes towards change, and one comment
(00:30):
I received during the coaching session has really stayed with me.
You're really brave.
You don't necessarily like change, but you dive right in anyway.
The coach was right.
I'm very human, and that I do indeed feel fear when I encounter a change.
We all do to some extent.
(00:52):
I'm fond of the phrase, feel the fear and do it anyway for this fact.
Because fear is a very real part of the human condition.
It accompanies us during change.
It weighs us down even when we want to take action, and it can take control of our decision-making
abilities.
(01:14):
If we know that fear is essentially inevitable, wouldn't it be great to leverage it, to learn
how to use it to our advantage, and come out on the other side of fear stronger, wiser,
and ready to face it again?
I think the answer is yes.
And I think that while this is challenging, it is entirely doable.
(01:38):
We can be brave every day.
My guest today says that he has learned to use fear to drive him towards change, and
he is committed to helping others learn to do the same.
This is why I'm excited for our conversation today about fear.
(02:01):
Welcome to the comfy chairs.
Karsh, thank you so much for joining me.
I'm really glad to have you here and looking forward to our conversation.
I always like to take a few minutes at the start of each episode, though, to let my guest
introduce themselves.
So please.
Thank you, Kate, for having me here.
The chair actually is very comfortable, so I'm going to enjoy this conversation with
(02:23):
you today.
Just to briefly maybe introduce myself, I call myself a phenomenalist, and I think we'll
have the folks wait for a few minutes to get the definition of it.
But what I've done over the years of my 40 years of life on this planet is that I've
always chased joy, chased happiness over the real, the worldly definition of success,
(02:47):
so to say.
And so in terms of my professional achievements, I've moved from being a physical therapist
and that's a good one to filming and editing for a Columbia Business School professor,
corporations and sales.
And then middle of the pandemic, I decided there was time to ignite some neurons.
And so I started a company called Ignited Neurons where I coach and I'm a consultant.
(03:09):
And my favorite and the best role that I play every single day is that I have a father of
two and husband to one.
Excellent.
Good.
Yeah, you have such an interesting background.
People that do physical therapy, the learning and the ability to teach people how to do
things is such a great model as well.
(03:30):
So it's no surprise to hear that you've ended up in coaching and learning as well.
But I feel like we're talking about kind of an unusual topic, this idea of fear to begin
with, but also fear, something that we, I think we broadly don't talk about openly as
(03:53):
being an important part of how we learn.
There are lots of flavors of fear is how I think about it, from the day to day to the
big existential ones, and because here at the comfy chairs we're concerned with learning
and leading, I'd like us to start by talking about what are some of the most relevant fears
(04:19):
for leaders?
What do they encounter in that unique role of leading people that's important for them
to be aware of and to address?
Yeah, I think fear is a very intriguing concept to me as well, Kate, and I'll just give a
little bit of background where this whole conversation emerged from.
And so I was about to, I was asked to give a TEDx talk here in Australia, and I live
(04:43):
in the future.
It's about six or five AM my time.
I'm on my Wednesday.
But as I was thinking about giving that TEDx talk, I was thinking about courage, and I
thought that, oh, I'm so courageous that I took all these career leaps.
My wife and I, we decided to move to Australia one year ago from India, again, halfway across
(05:04):
the world, a continent we had never been to.
And so I was always focused on courage.
And then what I really do always is when I'm trying to grow and develop myself, is that
I create like a small WhatsApp group where I put people who are very close friends, where
I feel that if I openly share something, I don't feel this fear of being judged, which
(05:26):
we'll speak more about it.
And so out of those six, seven people, one of them said, because you're focusing on
courage, but isn't fear that's more natural to the human mind?
And I was like, that's an intriguing question.
And as I delve deeper into it, I realize that fear is something that we're almost born
with.
Courage is something that we have to learn, but fear is something that it's a primitive
(05:48):
response, it's a protective response that's going to kind of save us from fire as we stay
in that zone.
And so all my ideas started to then think about like, when you move from one career to the
other, there was fear.
When you did your best, there was this fear that people would know that you're an imposter.
(06:09):
And so I think that's where this whole idea of being driven by fear came about to me.
And as you very thoughtfully asked this question about leaders, I think leaders have a lot
of challenges because it's always when you're a leader, you're put on this pedestal.
And it's almost thought that there's this big halo behind your head and you're shining
(06:30):
like the angels have descended from heavens above.
But leaders go through their own fears, fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of what's
going to happen in the future, the unknown.
Fear of sometimes also being vulnerable to their people.
And so fear is a challenge that I think they grapple with every single day.
(06:52):
And it's not that they're fearless, it's just that they learn to act despite the fears.
Yeah, I think that's such an important distinction.
Courage is not about lack of fear by any stretch.
Just having the skills, the mindsets.
(07:17):
I don't know if grit is the right word here, but I'll use it to take action despite the
uncertainty.
And you went down what I kind of feel is an unfortunate laundry list of the things that
we can naturally fear.
Fear, rejection, vulnerability, being found out, that classic imposter syndrome piece.
(07:44):
I think it's important for leaders to understand that those are definitely not unique to the
role of leadership.
They're just often amplified by being under scrutiny like you talked about, being on display
all the time.
I love that you had somebody in your life that called out that courage is not the natural
(08:05):
state.
And I was thinking in my preparation about, if there's fear, what's its opposite?
I don't think it's courage or bravery.
I actually think it's joy.
And we can get a little bit more into my wise and wherefores of that.
But I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this.
(08:27):
But if we're in agreement, what are ways that we can bring more joy into our lives to counterbalance
the natural fear?
Yeah.
As you say that, Kit, I think it's going to take a lot of unlearning and a lot of unwiring
to get to that.
And why I say that is, and I'll speak mostly to an in-depth Indian culture upbringing because
(08:54):
I'm an Indian who was born to do doctors.
And so there's always this societal pressure.
And I think it's globally, but I'm just going to speak to Indian and love for you to add
if how you feel about it happened in the United States.
I think what happens is that since the very young age, we're always asked to compete with
(09:16):
each other.
We're always asked to be first on that, but I still be first in the class, do well in
everything that we're trying to achieve.
And we forget that sometimes there's just joy in what we're trying to do as kids.
And I go through this challenge every single day where my eldest son, for example, he's
(09:38):
13 and he plays the drums and he wants to play basketball and he wants to play table
tennis.
And a part of me is thinking that if you're investing your time into something new, then
you better become world class on that.
And then I pause myself.
That is that really important because then you're going to steal the joy from his life
(09:59):
and then ask him to compete on those aspects.
And so instead of asking him to do that, can you just not let them play and have fun and
enjoy and just do it for the sake of it?
And I think when you put this idea that how the opposite of fear is joy, what comes to
mind is that we have a primitive brain, right?
(10:21):
When we are going through the imposter syndrome, when we're going through this fear of failure,
rejection, uncertainty, or when you're, say, leaving a job and trying to become an entrepreneur
or starting a podcast, the brain is going to tell you, because you're going to fail,
because you're going to go bankrupt, because you're no good, you're an imposter, you're
stupid, you're dumb, and this and that.
(10:42):
And the brain is going to do all of that.
But the question is what's stopping us from asking our brain, but brain, what if I succeed?
And that just sparks the joy.
That just sparks the joy.
The inner critic is such a harsh, harsh mistress.
Yeah.
And it does just suck our energy out to listen to that voice saying you could fail.
(11:09):
Not even you are going to, but you could fail.
I loved, loved, loved hearing about your sons and the different perspective coming in another
culture.
I think at the end of the day, people are people, but where we grow up and how we're
raised impacts our perspective and the, you know, I'm, I'm a middle class middle American
(11:38):
and very fortunate.
I have a lot of privilege in my life and there was a lot of pressure to perform scholastically,
especially, you know, honor society and gifted programs and you name it, a standard joke
with some of my friends that we came up through the quote unquote gifted and talented programs
(12:03):
is that like a Halloween costume for us could be just to dress everyday normal.
And when people ask you, what are you supposed to be?
A lot of things.
I see answer.
This potential became a burden for us.
But I got to thinking as I was listening to you that we, we oftentimes at least in English,
(12:30):
we conflate the words and the concepts associated with happiness and joy.
And I think it's really important to make a distinction between those and it's part
of my rationale for why I think joy serves to balance if not negate fear.
(12:51):
So happiness, happy and happenstance have the same root words.
So it tells us it's with happenings with instances.
Our happiness is entirely circumstantial.
It's based on what's going on around us.
You know, did you get enough sleep?
Are you hungry?
All of that type of things as well as stuff entirely beyond our control.
(13:16):
Here in English, joy and the idea of a boy, a buoy or boy, every pronounce it, because
there are regional distinctions there, something that sits in the water and constantly floats
and is able to stay above the waves and operate.
(13:39):
So joy is this thing that allows us to float regardless of our circumstances.
That's something I learned in a church setting.
And when I look around at my life and the times where my sense of myself and my reactions
(14:03):
to the events around me, when I am concerned with happiness over joy, I do experience more
fear.
It's been about a year and a half ago since I lost a job that I'd held for a number of
years and that time was absolutely saturated in fear of not knowing what was going to happen
(14:26):
in addition to the natural shame and embarrassment that comes in that circumstance.
As an intrapreneur, there are a lot of opportunities to be afraid.
But when I think about, in my case, when I think about what is my purpose, why am I
doing this, what do I believe I can contribute, that is something that gives me joy.
(14:54):
It gives me lightness despite the waves.
And I think that's what I would want for listeners, leaders, and for their teams as
a result is that we're seeking out ways to connect to purpose, to have the experiences
of joy at work because life is full of fear.
(15:18):
How can we balance it?
That's fascinating and I think we're trying to explore the unexplored almost as I'm listening
to you.
I don't know how this will sit with you, but how I feel about joy and I again tell this
to myself, to my family and to my coachees, is that when for breakfast, I'm having a banana,
(15:47):
just the sweetness of that fruit and just the ability and the capability of buying it
and having it in that moment should bring me net joy, should bring me so much joy that
I'm full of that flavor.
And that to me can happen in every moment.
And a few years ago, Kate, I started this project called Project Happiness where my purpose
(16:11):
was to improve my photography skills and so I would go on to the streets, but I love talking
to people so I go on to the streets and ask people, what makes you happy?
What is happiness according to you?
And I'd have these long conversations with them and the first conversation I had with
was with myself.
(16:32):
And my statement in that moment was that this ability to feel is joy.
Whether you're feeling pain, whether you're feeling fulfilled, whether you're feeling
heat or cold, you're able to feel so many different emotions and things that should
bring you joy.
(16:54):
And I think it all comes back to happiness to me, it's a state of mind done over time,
but joy is in every moment.
And so earlier, one example again, when I would have as a leader, when I was leading
a team of about 15, 20 people, I would think that having a conversation where there's a
lot of conflict, I should be fearful of that conversation.
(17:17):
But then I started to see that as an opportunity to grow and there started to be joy in that
conversation.
That how can I best serve myself?
I put myself at the center.
How can I best serve the other person and the purpose of the organization to make sure
that I be my best in that moment?
(17:38):
And I think just that challenge brings a lot of joy.
So for those who are in relationships, you would have many conflicted conversations maybe
with your spouses or your partners.
Earlier, I used to see them as, oh, we're going to have this conversation again.
Really?
Do we really need it?
(17:58):
Yes.
Yes, we are.
Yes, we do.
Yeah.
And so now I find joy in that.
How can I be my best to my partner because it's both of us in it together against the
challenge?
Yes.
I think these are shifts that come over time.
And once they do, it's almost like there's no looking back.
(18:22):
Yeah, I want to clarify one thing.
I feel like I have to justify something I said.
I want to be very clear.
I think happiness is awesome.
The feeling of being happy is one of the best things that we can experience.
And I know from my own experience, it goes away.
(18:43):
That's why I think about joy over happiness as being the goal.
And I love.
So I have to admit, you almost lost me at Banana because I hate bananas.
Like I am the person that can't stand them.
It's like, oh, oh, wait, listen to what he's saying.
(19:04):
Ignore that.
The connecting yourself to the simple gifts around you and in your life and seeing even
things like conflict, whether it's at work or in your relationships, in your marriage,
that you have the privilege of getting to participate in that.
Again, it's a shift.
(19:25):
It can be seismic for some people, but understanding that every day that I get to show up and do
this thing that I've chosen, even if the particular circumstance may not be my choice, that's
a source of joy.
And it quiets the fear, doesn't it?
(19:49):
I think conflict is a really good place for us to spend some time because that's something
most people hate.
You say the word confrontation and you can just see that seizing up.
Yeah, I would.
Yeah, that's something I'd like us to spend some time on how, just like you said, it's
(20:12):
an opportunity to take that fear and learn from it.
What are some of the practices that you coach and advocate?
Yeah, I think what happens when there's conflict is that the brain starts to take that on as
a stimulant that you're kind of afraid of or your natural sense of being is almost like
(20:40):
wanting to shift that.
And it's like in primitive times when there'll be like a thunderstorm or when we were sleeping
in caves, there would be fear of having a lion come and eat us.
I think conflict has reached that state for the mind where we hopefully won't have a lion
come and eat us, but we'll have conflict with partners, with leaders, with peers, with managers,
(21:04):
with colleagues.
And when those conflicts start to emerge, we're almost on the defensive and we're fearful
of what might happen, what might emerge.
Raw truths might come out and all of that starts to happen in our brain.
And I think a great reframe to that is that, A, we have to stop kind of locking horns with
(21:27):
each other.
That to me is like step one, that you've got to not think of you versus them, but it's
you and them versus a problem.
And I think that's a massive shift if people can bring that on because when you're as,
say a leader and your direct report, when you're getting into this moment of conflict,
(21:49):
ultimately, your core objective is the same, which is your growth and the organization's
growth.
And so you're standing together in it.
So I think that's the first one that instead of doing this, you versus me, it's us versus
the problem.
That's a big shift.
The second I think is not letting those emotions cloud our brain because once the emotional
(22:11):
energy is high, whether that's anger, whether that's frustration, whether that's anxiety,
whether that's fear or joy, whatever emotions we might want to kind of bring in here.
But as soon as those emotions are high, then we're not thinking logically about that situation.
And a lack of logic leads to a heightened amount of conflict.
And I think it's very important to just take a deep breath.
(22:33):
If you cannot do anything else, we don't want you to go through big techniques of emotional
mastery or developing that high EQ.
But if you can just take a deep breath and be like, I'm going to be here fully present
trying to solve this.
That's the second one.
And the third thing that comes up is when we get into a conflict, we start with this
(22:54):
attachment that Kate and I are in a conflict.
I have to win here.
And as soon as you start with that attachment that I have to win here, then it's all a
downward slope from there and it's going to be a downward spiral.
And the whole shift, I think, comes from this energy that, again, we're going back to that
(23:15):
same point that let's find joy in the conflict by learning and growing from it, rather than
fearing what can happen.
The reframe that it's not me versus you, but us versus a problem is so powerful, so
(23:36):
powerful because, one, I have a lot of thoughts on this.
I'm going to see if I can organize them and be succinct.
Just like I talked about, there are root meanings for happiness and joy that can give us better
understanding of them.
I think confrontation is another subject that gets a bad rap.
(23:58):
And if we looked at what the word itself means, it would be easier to understand and manage
it.
You know, Khan is with front is face.
When we confront something, simply, it means simply we are facing it.
(24:19):
And if it's not, I'm not confronting the person, but together we are facing a problem.
That's a powerful way to preserve relationships and get to better solutions.
I think the work, especially for people in leadership, it's things like taking a deep
(24:44):
breath.
It is training yourself to have triggers, if you will, road signs that tell you, here
is an opportunity for me to behave this way, to shift my mindset that way.
And in this conversation, the scope of what we're talking about, the trigger is the feeling
(25:07):
of fear.
So how do we increase our awareness and develop the habit of, I feel fear, what am I going
to choose to do with it?
What do you think?
(25:30):
I think the choice is mine, right?
The choice to respond to, we can use all different words, but that choice is mine.
And so I loved how you said the confront.
I think that's a really powerful way to think about this.
But I think we've got to, and taking a breath, we've spoken about that at length.
(25:54):
But I think ultimately what's important is that we understand that how we respond in
a situation is completely our choice.
And I can be frustrated and irritated and respond with that energy, or I can choose
to respond with a more caring and loving energy.
(26:14):
And I think what really it boils down to is like, I think the ego also comes into the
picture, that we feel like we got to be right.
I have a point to prove, but do you really?
There are eight billion people on the planet.
I often say that we're eight billion perceptions, all trying to prove that my perception is
(26:36):
better than yours, but is it really?
And does my perception really matter?
And I think we get to attach to who we are, what we say and what we do.
And once you start to distance yourself from that, that who you are, to more, more fuller
and more fulfilled who you are, then I think conflict resolution, just being able to use
(27:04):
fear as a fuel, all that.
And I know we're all over the place almost, but we're also trying to bring us back to
that path that we're on, so that listeners derive maximum value.
And one thing I often say is that the ROI of our words should also be really high, that
(27:26):
they should communicate the message strongly and quickly.
But that's where I'll pause.
You're giving me too much to think about, I'm having all these awkward pauses while
I process.
I love it.
This is why I edit.
Talking about ego in this space and identity, that is such a source, I think, in the modern
(27:54):
world of fear.
We discussed impostor syndrome a little bit, and that's, people are going to see through
what I think I'm trying to be or deal.
I want to be very cautious here.
Here in the States, our modern political landscape and frankly, just the state of civilized discourse
(28:24):
is pretty broken these days.
And I think part of it is because so many people, for whatever reason, we, I won't even
say they, we have linked our beliefs, political, social, what have you, we've linked them
(28:44):
to our own identities.
So when they are challenged, it's a deep-seated fear that we experience, and it's made it
nearly impossible for us to have, again, discourse, to be civil with each other and disagree.
(29:04):
And I think if we could somehow identify that for ourselves, societally, that you are not
your ideas, and when an idea is challenged, it does not undermine your intrinsic worth.
(29:26):
We don't have to argue, we don't have to fight about this because this is not an attack on
you.
And it's interesting to me, as again, here in the States, we're nearing an election,
to think about how much of the way we act right now is driven by our fears.
(29:51):
That's not a question, I don't have an answer, it's just an observation that raising the
topic of identity during this conversation is, it's a big part of it.
I think how I feel about this kid is that, I think it's almost like a tussle, a churn,
(30:15):
a very rigorous movement that society has to go through.
And every society goes through this kind of a phase at different times in their existence.
But my hope is, whatever will be the outcome of the election, but my hope is that we as
humanity come out a little bit more centered, a little bit more learned, a little bit more
(30:40):
empathetic to say that, a little bit more human maybe, just like, I think what's happening
and it's across the world because it's again, our need for power, our need to prove ourselves,
right, our need to say that we're the best in so many ways is overwhelming, so many other
(31:06):
aspects of being human.
But the counter thought that my brain almost immediately presents with Kate is that, Baruchakash,
how would you present yourself, how would you market yourself in a world that's full
of noise?
If your message is important, how will you raise above the noise?
I don't have an answer to that because I'm still working towards that.
(31:26):
But I think, yeah, and we've spoken about identity and I'll give you an example.
This was a few years ago, I was in a boardroom setup and we were having this conversation
about the strategy of the company that I was working at.
And these are my early days of becoming like global leader at that point.
(31:46):
And the word DEVELOP is a common word that I would use and my pronunciation at that time
I think was developed.
I don't even remember what my pronunciation was.
And in that moment, a team member who had studied in the US, they said, but you're pronouncing
it incorrectly, it should be developed.
(32:10):
And there were people in the room and I appreciated them for that statement because it made me
a better person.
It made me a better leader.
No, I could have retaliated.
Eight people in the room, what the hell is wrong with you?
You're like my direct report and you're correcting my pronunciation.
But if I walk in with that behavior, then the message I'm sending is that if you have
(32:34):
a thought, you should not feel safe in raising that thought.
If you're a thought, then let's that thought because my thought is stronger than yours.
But that's not a culture that I want to build.
I don't build a culture that's more open.
I apologize to my son 10 days ago because I asked him not to make a mango shake because
(32:55):
it was too cold.
But that's important.
That's me being human in that moment.
And yes, I make errors and yes, I'm vulnerable and yes, I want to build safety for you.
And yes, I will overcome the fear of trying to be perfect all the time.
Another fear.
I just have to wonder sometimes at our condition as humans that we spoke about, I like using
(33:24):
the term primitive for us that we have this primitive brain.
Instead of lions, I would say saber-toothed tigers when I've taught on this subject.
But it's a big scary, right?
And it's so fascinating to me that the brain is so effective it really hasn't changed that
(33:47):
much over time.
But that does mean with all of the changes around us that there's primitive life and
then in modernity, all the different things that we have available to us and the ways
we live are so different, but our brains cannot distinguish threat from threat.
(34:07):
And the vast majority of us will never encounter a wild animal literally in the wild.
And yet we still have that amygdala, adrenaline response when we encounter something that
we perceive as threat.
(34:29):
And it's ironic to me that here in the modern world that does not serve us well.
And in fact, the less tightly we hold on to the things that we think protect us, like
identity and ego, the less likely we are to be afraid.
(34:50):
That if as a leader, I can loosen my hold on being right, loosen my fear of being wrong,
how much easier is it?
I have for years taught about feedback, you know, giving and receiving it.
(35:10):
And I'm not great at it myself, but I've put a lot of effort into being open to feedback
when I receive it.
I failed more times than I haven't.
I will be very honest about that.
But I do remember once a high level executive asked me some really challenging questions
about something I had proposed.
(35:32):
And I said, those are great points.
I appreciate it.
And later he's like, I've never had anybody respond to feedback that way.
Like, well, I'm here to do this work well.
It wasn't about my ego, and that was an exemplary example.
Plenty of times I didn't do that.
But again, when we can go in curious, open, and releasing what we think protects us, so
(36:04):
much more peace and joy.
All the time.
Yeah.
All the time.
And it's very simple.
I'll tell you how all that the stimuli brings the saber tooth or the lion or the or the
feedback, whatever it is, these are all just electrical impulses in our brain.
(36:24):
Nothing more than that.
And I'm not going to take anything more than that.
The weightage that I'm going to give every stimuli that comes to me is that of an electrical
impulse, something that ignites my neurons.
And that's it.
I don't have to make it so important that, oh, this statement by this person in this
(36:45):
situation, now my reputation is destroyed.
For this statement from this person in this moment, and now I'm on top of the world.
And I think, and I know I'm bringing some level of spirituality in here, but that's
something that really grown with as a person where there's this Indian mythological book
(37:12):
called the Bhagavad Gita.
And what it says there is that be non attached.
Be non attached to the outcome.
Do this as you all you can control is your action, your impulse and everything else will
be taken joy.
Joy is where we'll get to.
There is definitely a place for spirituality here in the comfy chairs.
(37:35):
We've talked about sacred work and whether you call it spirituality or faith or religion,
that is part of our experience as humans, even for people that like a skew religion,
listening to things bigger than we are matters and I was raised in a Christian faith, not
(38:04):
in Hindu or other, but I've studied those and I think what's so important for us, it
kind of comes back to this idea.
I think of can we be empathetic that we're all just trying as hard as we can, so whether
you believe in letting go, whether you believe in the fabric of a particular faith practice,
(38:34):
connecting that to understand, all major religions have a similar concept that seeking out something
greater than you are is a path to a better life.
There is something innate in us that understands that we need purpose, the word I use for it.
(38:59):
The mathematician Blaise Pascal, one of my very favorite quotes ever about almost anything,
in the heart of every man is a God shaped vacuum and in this case it's man as in mankind,
not just males, that we all have a hole in us that we want to fill with something sacred.
(39:24):
And unfortunately if we're not filling it with the better things, fear can creep in.
When we first met, part of that conversation that I really enjoyed was talking about personal
values and I feel like we're very much in that space when you talk about things that
(39:45):
are of faith or sacred to you, what matters to me, what do I value?
What part do you think values play in managing and leveraging fear?
I think this is a great segue into this conversation about values and they're very close to my
(40:08):
heart.
At the start of this conversation I used a word called Phenumbolist for myself.
What that really means, Kate, is that I'm just a tightrope walker and we all are.
Because this life that we're walking on, it's a tightrope and it's very unique to all of
(40:28):
us.
We were up there maybe 60, 100 feet above the ground, there's fear in every step.
And it's almost like it's a challenge in every moment.
And I think what the values do to me is they provide that anchor.
When the wire starts to wobble, the values provide that steady state.
(40:51):
They provide a guiding path.
They provide that light.
They provide maybe that balancing beam, whatever we might want to call it.
And over the years I've done a lot of work on myself to build up the values but over
the last five or six years now they've been very consistent and constant.
And the values that I have are discipline, excellence, freedom, growth and love.
(41:18):
And when you're able to live a life that's based on values and your values are very unique,
so find yours, you don't have to use mine to all our lessons.
When you have these values, they'll allow you to find that joy.
They'll allow you to find learning.
They'll allow you to use that fear as fuel rather than let that fear limit you.
(41:45):
And it's a special place.
It's a special place.
I think it is so important for us to ask ourselves what do we value.
Even just the question can be enough to trigger being able to identify them.
There are definitely lots of practices out there to do it.
(42:05):
You and I could probably both lecture for the next 30 to 50 minutes about how to identify
your own values but asking yourself what matters to me.
What thumbprint do I want to leave on the world around me?
Those are so important to anchor us.
(42:28):
Yours you have this beautiful long list.
Mine are much simpler because I need it to be easy so I can remember creativity, humor
and grace.
And I think some of it connects back to what we've been talking about.
There are so many opportunities for us to find new ways to think, to be kind to each
(42:52):
other and to find enjoyment in the world around us.
And when I remember that I value creativity, humor and grace, it significantly impacts
the way I behave.
My choices, my treatment of other people, decisions about my business, all the things.
(43:22):
Everything.
And it's like, what I was just thinking about, Kate, you and I are speaking about this.
It's like there's no manual to life.
And we're bloody lost some days I feel.
Again comes back to the noise.
You see, I work with coaches and they come to me saying that we're very distracted and
(43:49):
I'm like, what happened and what's going on?
And they're like, there's this app called Instagram that will spend 45 minutes on and
I'm like, who's stopping you from moving that app away from your phone?
It's a choice, but it's a hard choice.
And so we're very lost in all that's happening.
To me, these values act as compass.
(44:11):
They help you create that path that you can tread upon that you can choose and that that
just becomes your way of life.
You know, it's interesting.
Yeah, social media is a choice.
It's also a way for us to ignore our fears.
(44:36):
Distraction is not just something that's pulling my attention away from me.
It's also when I choose to be distracted.
And when we find ourselves, whether it's actively doom scrolling or just getting into TikTok
ad nauseam and not paying attention to the amount of time, it's a sign for us that I
(45:01):
may be avoiding something.
Is this, is this boredom?
Is this garden variety distraction?
Or is this fear that's driving me?
It's a really important question for us to ask ourselves.
Yeah, that is so powerful.
(45:23):
I've been, I've been having a debate with myself about my relationship with social
media in the last few days.
So that feels really relevant.
For me, it's, I don't really like it, but I know that it's an important part of modern
business, the type of work you and I do.
(45:44):
And some of it's what, what are you afraid of, Kate?
Why is this a problem for you right now?
You have the numbers to prove that it matters.
And I don't want to do it.
And who do you want to be?
I think that's the question that I asked.
Yeah, that's a great.
The creator or the consumer.
(46:07):
That is such a good question overall.
And the, in those moments where we feel fear and we need bravery, we need courage, asking
who do I want to be in this moment?
Your answer is going to tell you what to do.
Absolutely.
The question I have asked myself at times where I've not been entirely satisfied with
(46:29):
my own behavior is, will you look back on this and be proud of how you acted?
What do you want to be is so much more urgent.
I may adopt that.
I feel like our conversation about stimuli and attachment and identity, we've been circling
(46:56):
around a lot of the concepts associated with growth mindset, which is a real common way
for us to talk about learning in the workplace and learning workplaces as well.
I think there is a lot of richness in the concepts and practices of growth mindsets,
(47:19):
the approach that I can learn and grow in this conversation about overcoming fear.
So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
And obviously I want to get onto the topic of how leaders can instill a growth mindset.
I think to me it's almost like you can either be born with it or you can grow yourself into
(47:46):
a growth mindset.
So both possibilities are open.
I think the big idea here is, again, it comes back to the identity, the ego, the attachment,
is that when I'm given a stimuli that pushes me to change, am I going to be accepting of
it and learn from it and grow from it?
Or am I going to resist it?
(48:08):
And I think the growth mindset as Professor Dweck kind of, when she coined the term or
thought about it, it's all about that feedback and failure and criticism.
It can actually make you better and what's stopping you from being better.
And that just simplifies the whole equation.
(48:30):
I think something very simple that people can do is to just find opportunities to learn
something new every single day.
And it could be as small as like one quotation, one data point, one thing that pertains to
(48:51):
their role as a leader.
It could be anything and everything that works for them, but just spend that five minutes.
It's almost like you're going to the gym to work out on your biceps or your triceps or
whatever muscle you want to choose.
Just go to the learning gym, so to say, and learn that one new thing.
Seek feedback.
(49:11):
That's a great way.
As leaders, we love giving feedback.
But how often do we go and ask them?
I'm like, do you have some feedback for me?
It's almost like asking the same-toothed tiger to come and eat you alive.
Yeah, I do think feedback is a very relevant subtopic of what we're talking about because
(49:39):
there's, I think, being great at feedback is a skilled bundle.
There's obviously the giving good feedback that's formative, that's compassionate, that's
clear and actionable.
Then there's the skill of asking for feedback because there are good ways to do that and
(50:05):
not so effective ways.
Then there's the skill of how I receive feedback.
Am I gracious?
Am I grateful?
Do I listen to the words and not judge the person that's been brave enough to give me
feedback?
Then when it's all said and done, there's actually applying the feedback that you choose to take
(50:32):
into consideration.
Everybody can be great at receiving feedback, but they never change.
We put a lot of fear around the actions associated with feedback.
So many leaders hold themselves back because they think it's hard.
When really what it is, it's kind of scary because it's a form of confrontation.
(50:57):
Right?
But I think it's something that we need to, what I feel about this kid is that the human
body is changing every single day.
We started this conversation about 56 minutes ago and you and I are changed after this conversation.
People who are listening to this are changed after this conversation.
(51:17):
So change is very, again, as fear, right?
Change is very innate to the human soul and mind and body.
Our body changes every now and then.
Every cell in our body is replaced with a new one every few weeks, I think, if the research
is right.
Now that if change is so innate to us, why are we fearing the change?
(51:39):
I have a theory about this actually and have had for a number of years.
I think we fear change because for all the reasons that you've just talked about, in
our heart of hearts, in our deep lizard brains, change reminds us that we're going to die.
(52:01):
As soon as we're born, our bodies start to change.
We grow the age and the natural outcome of that is death.
So anything that's a significant change beyond just the slow aging of ourselves, it puts
(52:24):
our mortality in the spotlight and so we resist it.
And this is one of the reasons I think anytime we enter into necessary change as leaders
when we are leading change, our first job is compassion because it's going to be hard,
(52:47):
even if it's a good change, even if it's a change that people asked for, we're still
going to be afraid because the vast majority of us fear death and that's what our body,
our bodies, it's written into us to see change as a death process.
That's my theory.
It's fascinating where you're taking this conversation.
(53:09):
You know how I feel about this?
You and I are having this conversation.
We're separated by, I don't know, 10,000 miles, maybe even more.
Multiple options in the middle of and we cannot reach each other in person right now.
Like even the travel time is like 20 hours.
And so this could be like the last conversation you and I have because after this I could
(53:32):
die and you could die.
And a child who's born sometimes by age five, they have something that does not let them
go beyond that age.
And so the day we are born, it's written that there will be a day we'll die and so our mortality
is, I mean, 100% sure.
(53:53):
And so why do we fear death then?
And to me it's like, it's going to come to you someday.
And so why don't we spend every single day becoming a little better, finding joy, using
our fears to fuel us to go to the next level and living by our values.
(54:15):
I couldn't agree more.
I think, yeah, instead of focusing on the fear that's just going to come because we're
wired to keep ourselves safe.
So we fear the things around us.
And there's a lot to be afraid of in our world.
There's a lot of scary stuff out there.
(54:37):
It's not even the saber-toothed tigers, right?
There are a lot of people to be afraid of.
There are events and pandemics and catastrophes.
And that's what we could spend all of our time doing is living in that fear.
Or we can see it as a way to learn and to be more deeply connected to each other because
(55:02):
it's a common experience.
It is.
I love that I am getting to have this conversation with somebody on the other side of the world.
It is a wonder.
It is.
It is.
You live in an age of wonders, don't you?
(55:22):
And as we record this, I'm on September 4th.
It's about 7 a.m.
Gate.
Yeah.
The future looks amazing.
The future looks amazing.
I can't wait.
I am not afraid of it.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
As we start to kind of cycle down, I would love to hear some of your final thoughts.
Is there anything that you really want to highlight, spotlight for listeners, any insights
(55:50):
that you've gained through the course of the conversation?
I think to each its own, that's the first statement that comes to mind.
And then the second thing is this life that we've been given, this ability to experience
life, the joys, the pains, the emotions, the sabertooth tigers, everything that we were
(56:15):
experiencing.
I think it's very precious, this human life.
And I'm going to request and nudge and be assertive that everyone who's listened for
the last 68 minutes, make a life that you can be proud of that serves others.
That's unconditionally loving.
(56:36):
That's, yeah, there's so much joy in every cell of your body, even though you don't like
a banana, but eating that banana can still bring you joy.
And so one thing I say is ignite that spark.
You're a beautiful spark within you.
Ignite it and turn it into a fire and then help others ignite it because that's how we
(56:58):
grow.
That's the only way we will take humanity to a better place than how we entered it.
I think the only thing I would add, I'm drawn back to the metaphor that you gave about being
(57:20):
tight roadblockers in no small part because I'm very afraid of heights.
That is something that is a huge challenge for me to be a pie.
And that is life.
We are constantly faced with things that we have sometimes inexplicable fear of.
(57:45):
But joy, our values, our community as well, those can serve to balance us, even in the
particularly scary moments.
I don't know about you, but I feel a lot of peace.
I was about to say that and even the best part of our conversation and I want our listeners
(58:07):
to focus on that is the pauses and the silence.
I call that the golden silence gate.
So thank you for creating that space.
Oh yeah, definitely.
This has been such a pleasure, sir.
I'm going to make certain that your LinkedIn profile, a couple of other links so people
(58:29):
can find information about you.
Is your TED Talk available?
Is it something?
Absolutely.
I will ensure that that's available for people to watch too.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
And I just thank you so much for your time all the way on the other side of the world
in tomorrow.
Yeah, you'll get to tomorrow and it'll be beautiful.
(58:51):
Thank you, Kate, for this space and this conversation.
I've had the joy of being on many podcasts.
This has been the most peaceful one.
Oh, I'm so glad.
Oh, yay.
That's one of the things I want when people encounter me is for there to be a certain
amount of calm so that makes my heart very light.
(59:12):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and share it with others who
are passionate about leading and learning.
And don't forget if you have a question for our new comfy HQ series beginning in January
(59:33):
2025, I'd love to hear it.
Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation.
Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!