December 31, 2024 • 68 mins
Tell me more: A conversation about curiosity and joy
What if the secret to joyful, innovative, and resilient leadership lies in a single quality—curiosity? In this episode, Kate sits down with Tatyana Sanikovich, HR consultant and executive coach, to explore how curiosity transforms leadership and team dynamics. Together, they unpack the true meaning of curiosity and offer actionable insights on how leaders can build trust, foster experimentation, and create psychological safety.
From curiosity check-ins at meetings to celebrating both successes and failures, Kate and Tatyana highlight practical strategies to integrate curiosity into everyday leadership. They also delve into the connection between curiosity and joy, explaining how embracing the unknown can spark creativity and strengthen teams.
Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting your journey, this episode will help you embrace curiosity’s power to unlock potential in your team, your organization, and yourself.
- Connect with Tatyana on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tatyanasanikovich/
- Visit her website: https://www.tatyanasanikovich.com/
Additional resources:
- Six Surprising Benefits of Curiosity by Emily Campbell on www.greatergood.berkeley.edu
- Why Are Humans Curious? by Grant Currin on www.livescience.com
Got something on your mind? A tricky situation at work? A leadership topic you’re curious about? Share your questions here: https://www.one23ltd.com/comfyhq
https://www.instagram.com/one23ltd/
Music by Geoff Harvey from Pixabay
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 Limited. This is your host, Kate.
(00:11):
We are a cat household. And if you, like us, have spent any time around cats, you've experienced
curiosity in its purest physical form. Our kitten, Inez, cannot bear to sit still if
she hears anything in the next room. Her intense and innate curiosity drives her to chase after
(00:32):
every noise, play of light, and dust mode. Well, I can't say that I relish pulling her off of the
ductwork in the basement. I am still endlessly entertained by all of her curious adventures.
What is it about curiosity that makes us forbearing and tolerant with cats, toddlers,
(00:54):
and even our colleagues? I think it's safe to say that we all experience some level of curiosity,
and we can readily see the benefits it can bring. Early psychologists talked about curiosity as an
impulse to better cognition. My own belief is curiosity is the spark that fuels empathy,
(01:16):
and ultimately, great learning and leading. Higher levels of curiosity have been associated with
positive emotions and psychological well-being, increased performance and engagement, and deeper
connections with the people around us, showing us that curiosity benefits us psychologically,
(01:39):
professionally, and personally. Because of these research findings and my own experiences, I am
going to make the claim that curiosity offers us joy. That's all well and good, great even. But
what does this mean for the workplace and for leaders? And that's what we'll be exploring in
(02:04):
today's episode. Welcome to the comfy chairs. Tatiana, thank you for joining me. I'd like to
take a moment so that you can introduce yourself. Thank you so much, Kate, for welcoming me. My name
is Tatiana Sanyukovic, and I am an HR consultant and an executive coach. And I generally work with
(02:30):
leaders and organizations in moving through change in a mindful way and still keep their sense of joy
in their lives. So that's kind of where I'm at. I come from an HR background in hospitality and
nonprofits and retreat centers. And now I run my own business and help all kinds of organizations
(02:52):
in a meaningful way. So thank you for having me. I'm very excited for our conversation. We'll
meet first met. Like, oh, this is somebody I could talk to for ages. And I know even before we hit
record, we were chatting for about 20 minutes. So I'm exactly thoroughly enjoyed it as well so far.
Yeah. And I think we have demonstrated kind of the thesis of today's conversation to how
(03:19):
curiosity does drive and give us joy. So I think it's going to be a lot of fun to talk about the
thing that we're experiencing in the moment. So let's start with a big broad question. What is
curiosity exactly? And how do we experience it, both inside ourselves and with other people and
(03:44):
their behaviors? What are your thoughts? I think for me, and I also looked up at the dictionary
definition just to see what the dictionaries say. And in Oxford dictionary, at least what I found
was it said curiosity is a strong desire to know or learn something. And for me, it is like if I
step aside, is it is that desire and drive to learn to get to understand somebody or like seek
(04:11):
understanding? So that for me, where curiosity comes from within and also how sometimes it exhibits,
I think with people when it comes in behaviors in people and other people's behavior, it's those
open-ended questions that we ask, you know, that's not just a yes or no, that gets the person to
(04:32):
tell a story. It's this ability to listen. For me, curiosity is a lot of listening to understand,
as opposed to listening to respond that we humans tend to do a lot of times. And then also,
it's the part of the kind of the willingness to experiment and admit uncertainty. Yeah, what
(04:57):
about yeah? Oh, for me, the word I wrote down in my own notes for this was craving. Craving for
something new or more, and it's usually knowledge, information. And sometimes it is craving that is
like a hunger, depending on how big the curiosity is. As I've been listening to you and thinking
(05:25):
about, you know, the curiosity shows up in our questions and in our listening, what occurs to
me are two parallel things. One, I'm going to guess that there are some cultural differences in
how curiosity shows up and how it's perceived. And I don't know that I'm necessarily equipped to
(05:47):
really talk about that. But I think it's an interesting thing for us to consider and just
have in our awareness. But knowing that not everyone's going to receive your curiosity in the
same way. It's a reminder to me, because I'm definitely talking to myself in this, is managing
(06:08):
your curiosity, corralling it a little bit and using your awareness of yourself and the other
person. So it is kind of this like conversational skill that's at the next level of it's not just
oh, are we engaged, but am I staying curious about how you are? I was sharing with you that is
(06:29):
something I have to really pay attention to myself in, because I will have these questions pop up,
and I'm like, oh, this person might be able to answer this, or I've not thought of it this way
before. And I know if I'm not managing myself, that I can take conversations, whether it's work or
(06:50):
social or other well off track and down odd roads. And especially when I was younger, I had a
penchant for asking really personal questions. And shame on me for that. And it's not, and it's
not like rudeness or bad manners. It's genuine curiosity about the other person. So I think
(07:14):
that's one of the things for us to consider in this conversation, particularly as we think about
the type of people you and I might coach, my listeners as well, that as a leader, are you, are
you applying your curiosity appropriately to the situation? And thinking about it as, as a skill,
(07:38):
but also as a tool that needs to be used appropriately, and sometimes even sparingly.
I appreciate, I really appreciate you bringing it up. But also what resonated with me when you were
speaking earlier, is there's a there's definitely a cultural piece to how, how the curiosity that
(07:59):
we know in terms of the English speaking world, and you know, being present in the United States,
how that might land actually in other cultures. So is we're speaking about opening questions,
or being curious about the person and their life. The line in other cultures is, is quite
different. It could be quite different. So understanding is we're kind of pulling together,
(08:22):
I think in the Russian speaking culture, and I've been in the States for a while,
however, there is a very different, there's a different approach. And particularly, sure,
you can ask open any questions, and it's shifting now, but you know, definitely years ago, before
it would not be a tell me more kind of statement, you know, and there is a part to where I'm from,
(08:49):
and form a USSR that there is, and everybody can look at communism and all that stuff,
all of that trains people to think and behave a certain way, particularly when it comes to their
safety. Yeah. So when somebody is asking you tell me more, I can tell you, I mean, it's much
different here now. But if I'm there, even now visiting, I would my ears will perk up. And I'll
(09:13):
be like, why do you need to know? If I come back to leadership, and just overall, if we're speaking
even from leaders that we work with, here, you know, in the United States, and if they work in
global companies, it is it's that curiosity of how do you bring your team together in a meaningful
(09:33):
way, but also like ask the questions that are conducive to whatever you're trying to create.
And and how you were saying what I really liked, pay attention, how your questions are landing,
and adjust accordingly. But that's all back to that presence and awareness. It's also the trust,
(10:00):
like how you would build trust, because again, depends on the culture, how open you make the
communication and some cultures would like it a little more closed, you know, we do know now with
all kinds of research without curiosity, you cannot drive innovation. So in all the companies are
all like that's the hot word, one of the hot words is one of the many hot words of today, one of the
(10:24):
many hot words is innovation. Well, you won't innovate without curiosity, like at all, you know,
definitely fosters growth. That's the leadership piece. And I think the last one for me with
curiosity is empathy, but you kind of think spoke to me is a part of paying attention how it lands
back to that awareness as well, is that empathy is essential to understanding how people around you
(10:52):
navigate anything, actual life and work, and it's all together. It's never separate, even though a
lot of times we would like it separate in different beautiful boxes, they will all they will all kind
of seep together. And so that to me, it really all of those tools, you know, as people say, well,
(11:15):
how do I trust and how do I, you know, do the team togetherness and all of those things, it takes
time, but it also takes like a very committed intention. And also like your ability, like your
presence and the quality of your presence with your team for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think, as I've
(11:39):
been listening to you, what's occurred to me is that in the conversation about leadership,
you know, one of the things in my notes to you I talked about is why does curiosity matter in
any conversation about leadership, you've covered this great punch list. What I think curiosity
is is a mindset. It's a lens. It's a behavior, a skill. It serves a lot of different purposes
(12:09):
for us in the world in general. What we do know is that that curiosity in humans is what has
contributed to our evolution, to our advancement. It is part of how we survive by staying alert
and engaged with our surroundings. So it has all of these functions for us. And thinking about this
(12:38):
human shared experience feeling tool, all the things that it serves, it's so important for
leaders to understand how am I using it? How are my team engaging with it? And how am I making it
safe? Yeah. When I approach them with my own curiosity and for them to be curious and questioning
(13:07):
as well. I think the safe piece is for sure, you know, there's, as you were saying about scientific
proof and sure, we're not clinicians, but we read a lot of data and we read a lot of, you know,
papers and stuff. And it's that part of the, you know, with a sometimes called psychological
safety or just overall the sense of safety. In us humans, it's a basic, you know, need.
(13:31):
And so when it's not met in certain ways, so we don't feel safe, we won't be curious either.
Or we won't be expressing or responding to the person who might be curious about something
if we don't feel safe. So not putting it all on the leader or not putting it all in like one
(13:52):
person or individual, but it always, it's back to the awareness and paying attention to
how safe is this environment and what can be done to make it safer. Just because if, you know,
if we're curious and we're asking some questions, we must be wanting some to understand something.
(14:13):
And so to get that information or to receive some feedback or just to some gain some understanding
that comes from a place of safety. And so I think for me in experience, particularly in HR
consultant, a lot of times people like, Oh, we want feedback. And I always go, Well, what are you
(14:34):
going to do with it? First of all, yes, that's the biggest piece always like we want the survey
and we want the feedback. And I said, if you're not planning to do something with it, please don't
do it because that's a killer. Like that's literally a morale killer. It's really hard to get out of
that later. So it's like, don't dig that hole if you don't have to. And it's also with people,
(14:58):
you know, with humans, we're all human, we take things, you know, some things a lot more personally
than than others. And so we'll go, Yeah, I might have an open door policy, give me any feedback,
and then we get upset at the person giving the feedback or it again, we're not listening with
curiosity to understand what is it, but we're just, you know, how do we rebuttal it? How do we
(15:22):
react or respond in a professional way? But I the person knows I'm really, really, really upset.
And so those are the things that does not create safety. So, you know, and I've been a leader
and they've been difficult conversations and difficulties in the same department, the same
organization, there's always two, like there's at least two people to every situation and every
(15:48):
conversation. So what part are you playing? It's always, I would always ask what part of my playing
here? How am I showing up? And how can I do, how can I do different for the person to, you know,
to for the person to respond differently? And I can't highlight enough how consistency is really
(16:08):
important, you know, in terms how you're showing up in challenging way or in, in a, you know,
encouraging positive way, at least it's consistent. So anyway, yeah. No, I really, really, really like
this space we've found ourselves in so quickly about feedback, because curiosity is such an
(16:32):
important element of the feedback process, whether I'm seeking it out. So I'm curious to know what
you think about me, how I show up, or in leaders, big responsibility of delivering feedback to people.
Unfortunately, people tend to equate feedback with negative, with constructive. It can, of course,
(16:54):
be positive. But if you do feedback without curiosity, it's, it's essentially storytelling,
it's not really feedback. And this is, I think, I think why curiosity is unfortunately, also
unfortunately, often left out of the leadership discussion, despite the importance it plays,
(17:18):
is that we've created this mental model of leadership is having to be all knowing,
all confident, all right, all the time. And sometimes the confidence needs to be,
I'm confident that I can't know everything. So let me get curious about this.
I love it. Yeah, I love it. Look, okay, so Kate didn't, didn't meet a deadline.
(17:45):
I'm not going to assume I know I'm confident that I can't know everything about this.
Let me get curious. Let me find out what happened. Why did things not go as intended?
When I train and coach people on delivering feedback,
it is, it's what, why, how question for things. It's crazy simple. Here's what happened. Without
(18:13):
any interpretation, it's like playing the tape back. Here's why it matters in a business context.
And that can be here's why it's great, right? Not just here's why it's an issue.
How you deliver it, you need to be direct and kind in equal parts.
Yeah. Support, celebrate, whatever it looks like, and then ask, what do you think? Or
(18:39):
is there more I need to know? Or do you see it differently? So feedback has to be based on
curiosity if it's truly effective. And when you're seeking it for yourself, as you've pointed out,
if you are not open and keeping, keeping the space safe for people, your curiosity is going to be
(19:02):
met with barriers. Absolutely. Well, barriers can guard, kind of, very guarded. And so you're
not going to get the feedback that you want. I really, I just like, I wrote it down actually,
because I was like, I actually, as a mantra, I'm confident I don't know everything. There are so
few people that walk in a space or lead from that space, actually. Yeah. As like yesterday,
(19:31):
as we were working through something with an organization, the client, it's that piece actually,
it's when the person has, which I call them like having their knuckles too tight, you know, kind
of like fist and knuckles too tight. Is they like, here's the list, this is how things go. Here's
how it's always supposed to go. And if there's any delineation or any change, so there's definitely
(19:52):
control piece. But it's also with like, I can tell you, they don't come to the situation with
this with a feeling or even actually approach is I'm confident I don't know everything. They're
definitely coming to this particular occasion. They're confident they know everything. And therefore
(20:13):
somebody made a mistake. And that's outside of this plan. And it comes with very difficult
experiences for people on both sides. And so it's just like being the intermediary and receiving
just kind of like, as you also correctly saying the stories, all we have, we were not there. We're
(20:37):
not in that situation. We also come when we're in certain situations, we also come with a different
power, different kind of dynamic and status. So I try to be mindful and aware of that that if I'm
in a situation, people won't behave the same way, because they know what place I take, you know,
I mean, where I stand, or what role I am in. And so that really comes with a different territory,
(21:02):
but it's just that part of knowing like, no, I know this is how it's going to go. And if it doesn't
go this way, what happens I'm listening to people's stories. And trying to piece it together where
each story just like what you were saying, what happened, you know, why it matters, like as a
person saying what happened, I am listening to two people's stories of the same occurrence. And
(21:26):
they have like quite a different story. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, and I think the
asking like I really like your ask the end piece of like, ask, is there anything else, you know,
whether or am I, is this landing correctly? Is this like, am I understanding this correctly? And I
always try to check with people as well. It's like, please like, kind of tell me what you heard me
(21:53):
say, or something like that. You know, I mean, did I get that? It's, people always add something,
almost all like maybe 90, 98%, there'll be 2%, like, yeah, you got the gist or this is fine. But a lot
of times a person will correct something and it actually changes like the flavor, the texture,
(22:13):
that just like the overall meaning or a thread. And you go, Oh, this is why this matters to you.
You know, and it really makes people feel hurt just because you are listening. And in order to tell
them like, this is what I heard, you really have to listen. Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if sometimes
leaders turn away from curiosity, because it does take more time. It does mean that things may not
(22:39):
be resolved quickly. I think 100%. Actually, it depends on organizational culture. And it also
depends on the person. And actually how like, I've also seen people who are, who would like to be
more curious and spacious, because it has to come, it has to come with spaciousness, you know, and so
(23:01):
it's interesting because what I was saying too is like, you've got to create spaciousness for people
to be curious, because it doesn't just just happen on the spot, like, okay, right now, we're all going
to get curious. It's like, okay, hold on, give it a second, you know, or a little more than that,
or depends on the topic that people want to get curious about, you have to create the container.
(23:23):
That takes time, right? And with curiosity, as you also said, you are genuinely, you're little
innately like that is actually in your makeup. Now that I'm getting to know you, curiosity is
truly in your makeup. I actually one year, I don't, I mean, some level of it was in my, in my
(23:44):
kind of, you know, we're all humans. But every year I pick a word that I want to embody or practice
more. And one year was curiosity. In anything that came my way, I watched myself instead of
closing to be like, Oh, I know how this is going to go. I had to slow down and go, what in this
(24:04):
instance in this occurrence, what can I learn? And what can I ask even one question? And I have to
say, I definitely trained myself to be a lot more curious from where I started. When you were saying,
like, Oh, the curiosity to you, it comes so naturally, I think we're always heading with this,
(24:24):
that it's not, it's not for everybody that it's a natural occurrence. And sure, it's a thing,
it's a skill, it's a, it is a mindset, though, that I completely agree with you. Actually,
because you've got to look at everything not from a closed perspective, but from an open,
that's work. It is, it definitely is. And it does, I know it can slow things down. Because you can
(24:51):
end up asking, you can ask too many questions, you can chase too many interesting ideas. Even
though humans have curiosity baked into them, there are people where it is more natural to let
the curiosity run rampant or go there first. And then there are people where, for whatever reason,
(25:16):
it doesn't come as easily. And I think, I think very quickly, I could ascribe that to personality
upbringing, education, all the experiences. But starting with that, just being curious about
yourself. And why is this something that I'm putting, I feel I have to put effort into,
(25:42):
when it is a human trait, getting curious about you is a great starting place for developing
the mindset and skill. And I think for me, I'm absolutely, I mean, you're definitely preaching
to the choir in a sense. But where I'm also go, it's it backs to the personal development
(26:03):
and the desire to learn and change things. The same thing, it comes from an individual going,
I want to take space and time to get to know myself. And I'm curious why I do what I do.
That is, I mean, hence I say that spiritual work, in a sense, because you really got it,
(26:28):
it's personal development, it's growth, it's uncomfortable, because we're all going to find
all kinds of things. And it's back to you, you're saying, it takes time.
And in our day and age, at the moment, and sure, we'll say this, like time is the only
non renewable resource, yet it feels like it speeds up. And so that sometimes could be as a luxury,
(26:52):
which I don't think so, because we're still going to end up in trying to figure out who we are and
what we're about. But it's back to yours. It takes time. It takes time. And it takes time.
But it's back to yours. It takes time. It takes setting time aside, even without, you know,
(27:12):
before you even be like, Oh, yeah, what am I about? Why is this the way it is? And, and setting that
time to explore. This is where I would like to, because I think it feels very natural to me
to introduce the way that you work, the whole person approach that you take in your coaching,
(27:34):
in your, your development of other people. Just as a good practice, if you could define that.
But I think as we've talked about the knowing yourself, studying yourself, empathy, curiosity,
this is where I see a very natural segue into talking about whole person. And obviously,
(27:58):
you and I have a coaching view. But then how do you lead that way as well? The whole person
approach to me is that we are, we are a whole person, wherever we show up, whether we are a,
(28:19):
you know, a sibling, a parent, a child to somebody or a leader or an individual contributor or whatever
our or business owner, whatever all of the what we say sometimes hats that we wear,
all of those parts are a part of a whole. It's all us. We just get sometimes to choose to be like,
(28:41):
Oh, I'm going to be this. However, to me, when we, particularly as we work with leaders, when we
lead people, the whole person approach is to understand who you are as a person. What are
your values? What's your personal journey? Where do you, what's your background? Where do you come
from? Probably what are the traumas that you've kind of encountered and gained on this journey
(29:08):
that brought so much wisdom, but they trigger things in you. How conscious of all of that. So
that's back to that awareness and consciousness in terms of leadership. How conscious are you of
all of that in you? And there are qualities to me that are innately mine, my strength, and there
(29:28):
are qualities that I have challenges with. They're going to show up, whether I'm a mother, you know,
as I'm coming as a mother and talking to my teenager, or I'm coming as a leader or a business owner,
because you, you can think you can compartmentalize things, but trust me, you cannot. That is the
(29:48):
whole person approach to me. And so when they're leader, when I'm working with the leader,
and I help them, I think on the journey of to kind of know thyself, your values, you innate,
like what matters to you foundationally, it's going to permit everywhere. And I encourage the
leaders to understand that the curiosity pieces that then get curious who your people are that
(30:12):
work for you and work with you, just like you are. That everybody has a story. Everybody comes from
somewhere. When we know a little bit more and are curious about humans, just humans around us,
when we're, when we bring humanity, I'm a big opponent, proponent of that is
(30:33):
bringing humanity, no matter where we go, that's kind of, you know, the whole conversation of
mindfulness and joy is that this is our only life on this planet at the moment. So how we live it,
and how we kind of step every step of every day matters for the quality of that life. And so
(30:55):
it's being curious about people around you. And yes, we're all in this together, we're doing the
work together. How we do it makes a difference. And so that's kind of where I come to the whole person
approach for themselves, but then also look at other people, you know, what inspires them,
(31:16):
or what's happening in their life right now that's challenging. So then you get to understand them
more. Yeah. Thank you for bringing up trauma as well. Yeah. That for me stretches back to where
we started thinking about cultural differences. And in the broadest definition of culture,
(31:39):
that's where you can start thinking about what are the, the boundaries, the triggers, the trauma,
the, the sore spots that people have, you mentioned pain points. Yeah. And that got me thinking I,
I've, my whole adult life, essentially, I've used the idea of people being broken. And that's trauma
(32:06):
that we're talking about there. And curiosity is a way to discover those places by giving your
attention to other people, which demonstrates care. Absolutely. And the word that I'm trying to be
bolder about using is love. Because I, I really do think one of the things that's missing from the
(32:31):
conversation about leadership in the modern workplace is that leadership should be an act of love.
And curiosity is such an easy entree into demonstrating that you care about and want good
things for the people that you work with whom you serve as a leader. Because if you're asking,
(32:56):
what are your values? How do you feel about things? What is your background? What are the
hard things for you? You can then always respond with care. You mentioned in talking about how
much more time and being curious can take. How it is a non renewable resource. We have limited time.
(33:20):
And unfortunately, we don't know how much time we have at the end of the day.
So in this conversation, I do think we have to make a little bit tongue in cheek, but we have to
make the business case for curiosity. Because what makes devoting time, attention and energy
(33:40):
to being curious? What makes it worth it for leaders?
You're speaking, you're asking the person for whom connection is one of my fundamental values.
And so, and just like that humaneness, humanity, peace and empathy, but definitely connection.
(34:05):
And I really love how you brought the leadership is active love. Like I definitely am
and working with that a lot more now to be like more bold with that word.
So for me, what's in it, it's so for me, that's a value to connection. So that's a very easy one.
What's in it for others? So it's actually touching in to finding out for each person,
(34:31):
there's something in their values that's going to matter. And literally, I would connect curiosity
to one of those values. If for somebody actually it is delivering result, like they're very result
driven, and it's neither it's I'm not qualifying. But it's like, I really, I really want to see us
(34:52):
achieve that goal. I can tell you that curiosity in your team, and you as a leader,
will get you to that goal with with different actually perspectives and different variations
of outcomes and you thought if you do it without it, right? Or your team, you have a retain it,
you know, like you retain staff a lot longer, if you express that curiosity. Just overall,
(35:19):
you know, curiosity is kind of releases dopamine for people because it's a rewarding experience,
we're getting into this like, Oh, I'm learning something in or you know, so it's it's creating
that like feeling good sensation. So for each leader, I would pick little a look at your values
just top three. And then one of them curiosity would be like how you would this would help you
(35:45):
with that. So for me as a leader, it was always connection, wherever, you know, realms I would
work in. And so that would always create connection up select, it's an easy one for me. For somebody,
you know, it could be, I'm just trying to think of other, you know, kind of like what the values,
there's resilience, for example, you know, for somebody, that's their value. And so,
(36:07):
in understanding your people and who your people are, and how they operate in this world,
will create resilience for them and for you as a leader, you will be a much more resilient team.
And so for me, that would be how I would look at it. Yeah, going back to the idea that curiosity
(36:29):
can take more effort for some people. If a leader is one of those people for whom curiosity is
effortful, they can still encourage it and allow it to flourish on their teams. And it may not be
something that they value deeply. But there is a benefit that's derived from employees having
(36:56):
tended, nurtured curiosity. You talked a little bit before about innovation,
the dopamine, those positive responses and experiences, increase engagement.
And there is buckets of research that tells us that highly engaged employees are more productive,
(37:18):
you know, lower waste, higher quality, better outcomes. So again, even if it's not something
that's natural to you, leader, you can look for it in your team and encourage it in your team
without having to maybe necessarily devote your time, even though I would encourage you to,
(37:40):
because it has positive benefits for you, but making it something that the team values
and demonstrates and deploys very regularly, consistently, all those good juicy words,
I think is really important. So there is this fundamentally making curiosity a way of working
(38:05):
has a benefit for your business, whatever type of thing you're leading.
Yeah, I mean, as you're highlighting some things, I think, as you pointed out, even as a leader,
you might not be as curious, but creating the container and this, you know, this container
for your team. But I also have to say, as a leader, you have to model the things you want to see
(38:31):
take place. And so if you personally are not curious, and yes, you can create for certain
things, curiosity, you know, kind of more the spaces where it kind of grows more.
When it comes to you and people bringing you things, if you're not curious, you will shut
(38:52):
things down. You will, you know, you will know like that to your point of like, you would be
confident that you know everything. And so you in that case, to me, then it's also like, as people
work through some things, is at least, if you're not curious, just at least be open minded, you
know what I mean to allow your people for or consider that to allow people bring things forward
(39:18):
to you in the sense of, you know, why don't we try this or how does this look like? And coming
from the space of at least the open mindness, if it's not digging deeper or making time,
as you were saying for curiosity, but as well, to be quite honest to just even if you literally,
(39:40):
if you're talking to anybody, if you're listening to anybody and you just, you just adopt one statement,
I would say, maybe that's for the 20 kind of 24, but it's like, tell me more one time, if you're
literally, no matter what somebody's saying, if you just say at the end of that question or sentence,
tell me more and just listen, don't don't run with with solutions, don't do anything,
(40:06):
just one time, because it's actually good to say a couple of times, you know, like completely,
like people will get to something very different if you keep going. But if you're really trying to
save on time and really like, I don't have time for this, well, say once. And if that's a practice,
just like I said, a curiosity was a practice for me for a whole year, is that if you say this
(40:30):
every day to every person one time, you know, and by the end of the day, you've said it 30 times,
for example, for anything, including your family, including your friends, including anybody, you
just adopt that concept for, I don't know, a week, a month, just something just like pick a
pick a time frame doesn't have you know, definitely more than a day. I think even a day, I think you'll see benefit. I can guarantee you, it will be such an amazing and very different experience
(41:00):
for the person doing this, because you will learn so much more than you ever thought you knew, just by saying that. Yeah, so I had a friend in college that kind of made fun of me because I had a trademark
heavy on the air quotes question that was sort of my version of tell me more it was how so. Ah, so you were, yeah exactly. How so? Like you make a statement or tell me something and it's, well, how is that? Tell me more.
(41:32):
I really like how our conversation is creating this sort of iterative rubric for building your own curiosity. The get curious about yourself first conversation.
And that keep an open mind. You don't have to have an answer for every single problem that your people bring you. You don't have to shut things down because you think you know the answer. You can say tell me more how so whatever fits your style.
(42:02):
Yeah, exactly. A style can be brought into that. So curious about yourself, open minded with others, even if even if curiosity is not your go to mindset.
I think those are two things that you can do. I have, I have in my mind what I think the third could be. If I can be so bold. And I think it's being very deliberate about stating when you're curious.
(42:33):
I say it a lot. You probably notice that even in this conversation. Oh, I'm curious. It's a way to introduce that this is a question because I crave knowing more about you or the subject.
And in terms of understanding other people, when there are cultural differences or differences of opinion, even a little bit of tension, saying I'm curious, I'd like to ask you about X.
(43:05):
That creates a space for people to know they're being invited, as opposed to some questions can come across as demands. The I'm curious is more of an invitation.
In my own experience, like I've, again, I ask a lot of personal questions because I get curious. And it's amazing what people will tell you.
(43:27):
And I've been able to talk with folks from different countries, different religious backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, you name it, and say, because it's genuine for me, say I'm very curious, may I ask you about X.
And I get to learn so much. And I think being very transparent that I'm here to learn is such an easy way to make the connections and to practice curiosity.
(44:03):
I'm smiling the whole time you're talking about this because it's such it could. So I love this part is because I might take it a little different way.
The way you ask and you approach and I've experienced you and saying I'm curious.
(44:24):
And then you're saying I'm literally hearing you right now, may I ask you about this? It lands very differently than there are people that I've experienced actually, and I've watched in organizations who use that phrase, I'm curious, as actually preface for an passive aggressive question.
(44:46):
And so when you're saying I'm laughing, I mean, I'm smiling because I was like, it's so easy to be like, and when you're saying like, Hey, sometimes I'm asking very personal questions.
I was like, yeah, because I could feel in you, you're genuinely curious. I have also had people absolutely saying I'm curious.
And then they ask a question that is a total job. Absolutely job. And I've come back to them actually and I looked at them and I went, Are you actually curious? Or are you jabbing at something that you would want to know because you have a story in your head?
(45:21):
So, yeah, so that's definitely like, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is so so to me as a leader or any human, actually, for all of us, when we say I'm curious, are you genuinely curious, you know, pay attention to this is back to yourself and knowing yourself.
And sometimes there's lots of us, I mean, we get back to like traumas and what we grew up with and what was modeled for us. And for the majority of people, we did not have really good communication modeling at all.
(45:52):
We're all relearning learning the hard way all kinds of ways. So it's not to say like somebody's perfect or in any way is better than other.
But it is it is what I'm what I'm saying is that, well, and I'm going to come from my culture, our cult definitely coming from my culture, it could be quite sarcastic.
And you could be quite like, quite sharp. And so what I know that energy. And so when that energy comes with, I'm curious, I was like, Oh, watch me, are you really curious, because this is not how that's landing.
(46:28):
Oh, yeah, it's like, well, with all due respect, right? Oh, exactly. And it's like, I'll do respect. Come on, I'm about to be down.
I'm about to not demonstrate respect to you. No, and I would be I would be lying if I said I've never said it that way. Of course I have.
Because because it can seem like this is going to soften the blow or I'm not going to come across the jerk. But this goes back to, am I aware of how I'm coming across and am I managing myself?
(46:55):
And am I even managing my curiosity? The passive aggressive side of it, because there can be the curious question is, what the heck are they thinking?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What is what is my motivation? Is it because I want to learn that I'm craving something? What is it the the early psychologists? It's an impulse to better cognition?
(47:22):
Or is it I want to be right? And I want this person to be shown as being wrong? Yeah. Or I have, you know, a period curiosity to know this person's deep personal details.
What is my motivation? What is driving my curiosity? Very true.
(47:44):
And this is one of the questions I think is so important for leaders to ask themselves and any person on the street as well. That's where you respect other people's boundary and you demonstrate care and love, as opposed to just garden variety curiosity.
And I'm absolutely on board with that. It's just exactly it's like, as you were describing, it was just landing so lovely and so softly. And I was like, oh, I have had that statement done in so many ways that it would be like, no, again, we're not going into the curiosity here.
(48:20):
We just want to know. Yeah, fine.
My pants would be on fire if I said I'd never done that myself because I know I have it is it. And that's one of the reasons I think it's important to step back and talk about this is a it is a powerful tool because
(48:42):
it has I do, let's see if I can organize this spot. I do think that because curiosity is part of what makes us human that we have a tolerance for people that ask why we understand that asking why is a way of learning.
(49:05):
We find the curiosity of cats entertaining. So saying I'm curious, it does open a door. And the question is, am I opening that door, because I have an impulse to learn, or because I have an impulse to get more power, for example.
(49:27):
So we have to acknowledge that curiosity creates waves in us, which is a messy metaphor. And that in the workplace, especially because of all the power dynamics at play.
It's very important to understand, am I using this to its best effect. And by best effect, I mean, good and right, not the ends I'm trying to achieve necessarily. So just to all of that to say it's something to ponder.
(49:59):
Yeah, your motivation. Know your motivation. It's the motivation and intention for anything, right, but it's curiosity or anything actually it's like, what is your motivation intention behind that.
Yeah. Yeah. So I want us to turn our focus a little bit to the positive impacts of curiosity. You mentioned dopamine.
(50:23):
Yeah, there is research that shows people with high levels of curiosity experience more positive emotions. There's obviously a neurochemical aspect to that.
But I want to kind of stay in this vein of positive emotions and talk about why joy that in this case has been generated by curious open connections.
(50:52):
Why does that matter so much at work? Because I think joy at work is again, one of the things we don't talk a lot about.
No, and that's actually why I brought it a lot into my work. And actually, like how you're saying about the word love and bringing it more to the forefront. It was like as I started my journey as a consultant and a coach is like joy always comes up is because it's like it's a part of me.
(51:21):
So for me, it's always that's why that word was very important to me. So when we're saying exactly why is it so important at work is it's just important our life.
And so and we spend exuberant amount of time at work.
And so to me, if we're not experiencing joyful moments throughout the day in whatever in there's various forms of them, absolutely. And sometimes people some call it in positive cycle, it's a glimmer.
(51:55):
So it's like noticing things that catch your attention. And it's actually it's rewiring your brain. So just like curiosity. It's rewiring it's rewiring us to for to see challenges and opportunities to like to rewiring us to be open into somebody's
somebody's else's perspectives. Joy to me, it just rewires us to a more and it's such there's like, you know, positive peace that people go it's positive. We are as humans, we are naturally wired to for negativity, we see we have a negativity bias for anything.
(52:34):
That's just our unconscious wiring because without help to survive back to the traumas and survival and all of the, you know, adaptive techniques.
So for us to do in see things differently, but more make them as a mindset or how we view the world, we've got to work at it.
And some of us, I'm going to say, for me, it's probably a bit easier just because I am naturally a joyful person, like I find, as I was saying, those glimmers like if the sun is hitting the tree, and the rays are coming through that you know the tree leaves in a certain way it's
(53:10):
beautiful. And for me, the joy that you know it's like if we look at the definition I wrote that down as well is that it's a feeling of great great pleasure and happiness. And so when you ask a question like why is it important work, I want to say why not like that is a part of my life.
Work is a part of my day. And if I don't experience it. Oh, world, that's one of the reasons why I shifted roles and jobs in a sense is to be like, How do I experience. And it's not that I'm not experienced challenges but how what brings me joy.
(53:44):
And it's like this conversation is actually like this is going to keep me high for a while, you know, and then exactly like we wouldn't be talking if either of us didn't experience when we first met, didn't experience some side like the joyful piece it doesn't have to be exuberant it
doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be anything other than whatever feels good to you. However, that good feels like for some people it's really high for some people is this calm I actually sometimes call some like when I check in with myself there's a sense of calm joy.
(54:17):
There's just, you know, there's different variations in the volumes of it. Because to me joy. Also, when we come to work, it fuels things very different. It fuels innovation. It fuels resilience. It fuels creativity.
It fuels all kinds of things that are that make our life so much fuller and so much richer. And so, and back to like taking things seriously in my year of playfulness is that when we take things seriously and you know our work is really important and we're really important and how we do the work is it's like it gets really tight, very tight and very
(54:59):
very constricted. And it's very difficult to be in that space. So that's me coming from my own experience when I'm like, this isn't pleasant. I don't like it. I want lightness. I do one humor. I want noticing things that are beautiful, you know, and creating them, or noticing that
(55:20):
somebody, you know, like just saying hello, or paying attention to somebody for five minutes, lights their eyes up because there's a sense of connection. And it also feeds my connection, you know, the value of connection.
I've lived a day in a very meaningful way. And so to me, it's just, it brings a different level and quality to life, and work is a huge part of our life. So that's kind of back to the back to the workpiece.
(55:52):
So one of the ways that my curiosity plays out is I'm always really interested in the origin of words. So etymology is my, like my little secret pleasure. I like to chase after those meanings of words. And the way you're talking about joy demonstrates the root of those words.
(56:18):
So we use joy and happiness a lot of times very interchangeably. But etymologically, they're kind of different. Happiness and happenstance, or happenings, those come from the same root, where it's connected to events, to circumstance.
(56:39):
So our circumstances can make us happy or unhappy. Joy has the same root as Lord Boy. So something that regardless of what's happening in the water, it stays upright and above the waterline.
So cool. Yeah. And that's why sometimes it is euphoric and other times it's peaceful. Because there are, there can be instances where obviously the environment, and nobody can see my hand bobbing around, will influence the level, the intensity of it.
(57:16):
But it's a thing that, that stays regardless of the actual circumstance. And that is that core of peace and contentment, satisfaction, whatever you want to call it, is so important in the workplace, because the circumstances at work can change so rapidly.
(57:44):
I come from a healthcare background. So that is the day today. And in a cute care setting, you can start, you know, you can start the day great, and it can turn in an instant.
You can start the day awful, and miracles can happen. And if we depend on our circumstances for our emotional state, we're just going to be whipped around all the time.
(58:10):
It's a whiplash. It's exactly that. It's totally whiplash. Yeah. But if we can create an environment where there is a steady core of whether it's peace, or, again, euphoria, where joy exists, it's going to be easier for people to bounce back from the hard stuff, to innovate, to learn, to grow.
(58:37):
And if there is science that demonstrates for us, being curious brings this thing, this anchor point for us. Why wouldn't we want that? Not just at work, but in our whole lives.
Exactly.
I really like the boy kind of visual, and yes, people could not see your hands bobbing around. But actually, like for me now, when I have the joyful moments, I will think of it to be quite honest, because I've had that as an anchor for other kind of things.
(59:14):
I've never thought of joy, but it's actually for the harder challenges of the times. It's like, okay, how do I stay connected to the bottom of the ocean, while the wind or things are kind of bobbing around and moving.
I think it's more of a resilience piece, and being within the storm, but staying upright. And so now I love that like a pivot on it as well for the joy piece, and the etymology that you were saying, of like, I've never thought of external factors and happiness and happenings, what's happening outside of us versus very much.
(59:53):
So joy to me is like that innate internal thing that makes a big difference. Exactly. I love this topic today just because it's actually reminding me of that word and having more and more of that in my life.
Because with people that we think we know, and I'm doing this in air quotes, particular family, siblings, whoever, we stop being curious. We stop being curious who they are, what they are.
(01:00:26):
And at the same time, we all know that we as humans generally tend to grow and develop and change. And sure, some don't change, but are you curious, you know, why, or, you know, if you're noticing something versus, I know and I've changed in a lot, even in just like the last couple of years.
(01:00:49):
So if somebody comes, and I noticed it's actually triggers me when somebody comes who've known me at that time a while back, and be like, Oh, you do this this way or you all like I know this about you and I'm thinking, not anymore actually.
Yeah, I don't know. That's not it.
Yeah, my parents have been married for 53 years.
(01:01:12):
Wow.
And they are still learning things about each other.
Which is delightful, absolutely delightful, but it's, it's just you can't know another person fully.
But wanting to be known is one of our core desires as humans.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know.
(01:01:33):
So what makes it possible for us to be known? Well, it takes, it takes two mindsets, curiousness, and I would say courage to be open.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, and those both take both of those take a little bit of courage actually to be curious and to be open.
(01:01:56):
And that's what makes connection possible.
And then connection is the thing that we can see play out in people's engagement at work in their connections in their communities, their ability to learn and grow.
All of the benefits that we reap when we have significant connections around us.
(01:02:20):
It does, you know, there's the that kind of trope about, you know, in order to be interesting to people be interested.
When we're interested in other people, when we're curious, it makes us attractive to that man.
It doesn't have to be like physically attractive.
It's not physically, but it's definitely intellectually.
But that's how, you know, there are there is a lot of literature out there about how expressing interest in others is a way to start any sort of engagement.
(01:02:50):
And when you say interest in others, that's just curiosity wearing a business suit.
Really? Yeah.
Another, another, yeah, another kind of wardrobe.
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Exactly.
So I realized when I was getting my notes ready that this episode is going to be the last episode of 2024.
(01:03:16):
I thought rather than my sort of, hey, what are what are your final thoughts, big ideas or takeaways?
My standard question.
I thought what I would ask for this last episode of the year is to close with the thoughts or recommendations for how our listeners can put curiosity into practice in order to best foster joy at work in the new year.
(01:03:42):
Oh, very good.
You know, when we talk about curiosity is making so making space for it in different ways. So one of the ways is if you can just encourage experimentation and celebrate learnings or failures or however you want to call it, celebrate it because this is how we're learning versus oh, we made a mistake, fix it.
(01:04:05):
So it's the experimentation and having that change the narrative and change the words around learning and the things that are, you know, kind of working or not working.
So that's one thing. The second one, I'm very big on check ins for meetings if I'm leading a meeting.
(01:04:28):
So one of the suggestions or ideas I would have so you know, check in can look a lot of ways and I remember you also mentioned, you know, time is definitely keeping my time and time is precious.
But you would be I mean I think so those of you who are doing check ins you definitely know that that connection makes a difference to people and people kind of ease into a meeting.
(01:04:51):
And if we are in the aspect of curiosity, I would say if you could start a meeting with the curiosity check in and a question suggestion might be like, what's one thing you're curious about today.
And then if you have time, as you know, as we were talking about time is actually one of the other ideas that I share with clients is called like for example, like an exploration hour is actually taking time aside and setting time aside and planning for it.
(01:05:20):
But if there's a topic of there's something that you actually don't know the answer to and you want, you come from with your team exploring and is create the space for joy.
You don't create it in a work setting, meaning particularly as a leader. Same thing, set a little bit five minutes in a group meeting, ask somebody as you walk in, like, you know, in the morning.
(01:05:41):
And it's like, what did you notice today? They brought joy, laughter, smile on your face. Inadvertently, people, even no matter how grumpy they are, they will pause and they will think of something and they will do it and even if they roll their eyes, trust me, their internal space will shift.
Yeah, you know, so those are a couple of things that I've, I would, I would say might make a difference. Yeah.
(01:06:08):
I would like to add to that. I think that probably complimentary to all of that great stuff that you talked about getting really preoccupied with questions over answers.
It's a way to build your own curiosity to make it less effortful. If you find it that way, it's a way to show attention for other people, whether you're getting curious about yourself, asking yourself questions or asking them of others, just get really preoccupied with getting good at questions.
(01:06:46):
And then I'm going to go back to something I said before is let yourself be confident that you don't know everything.
Yeah.
Turn that. I love that one.
Yeah, turn the, I have to know everything on its head and be confident that you don't.
It's a way to be gentle with yourself and open up to all of the possibility of things you can learn and discover and enjoy.
(01:07:15):
No, that's the one. The last one is for sure. It's like, it's like, be confident. I'm confident. I don't know everything in the part. Yeah. I love it. I love that one. That was the one. Have a whiteboard.
I'm like, I'm writing this on the board.
That makes me feel like I've, I've arrived to something.
Exactly. I am writing that on the board to remind me. So thank you. This is, this is terrific.
(01:07:40):
This has been absolutely delightful. Thank you so much.
It's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for such an engaging and super fun conversation.
(01:08:13):
I'd love to hear it. Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation until next time.
Welcome back to the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 Limited. This is your host, Kate.
(00:11):
We are a cat household. And if you, like us, have spent any time around cats, you've experienced
curiosity in its purest physical form. Our kitten, Inez, cannot bear to sit still if
she hears anything in the next room. Her intense and innate curiosity drives her to chase after
(00:32):
every noise, play of light, and dust mode. Well, I can't say that I relish pulling her off of the
ductwork in the basement. I am still endlessly entertained by all of her curious adventures.
What is it about curiosity that makes us forbearing and tolerant with cats, toddlers,
(00:54):
and even our colleagues? I think it's safe to say that we all experience some level of curiosity,
and we can readily see the benefits it can bring. Early psychologists talked about curiosity as an
impulse to better cognition. My own belief is curiosity is the spark that fuels empathy,
(01:16):
and ultimately, great learning and leading. Higher levels of curiosity have been associated with
positive emotions and psychological well-being, increased performance and engagement, and deeper
connections with the people around us, showing us that curiosity benefits us psychologically,
(01:39):
professionally, and personally. Because of these research findings and my own experiences, I am
going to make the claim that curiosity offers us joy. That's all well and good, great even. But
what does this mean for the workplace and for leaders? And that's what we'll be exploring in
(02:04):
today's episode. Welcome to the comfy chairs. Tatiana, thank you for joining me. I'd like to
take a moment so that you can introduce yourself. Thank you so much, Kate, for welcoming me. My name
is Tatiana Sanyukovic, and I am an HR consultant and an executive coach. And I generally work with
(02:30):
leaders and organizations in moving through change in a mindful way and still keep their sense of joy
in their lives. So that's kind of where I'm at. I come from an HR background in hospitality and
nonprofits and retreat centers. And now I run my own business and help all kinds of organizations
(02:52):
in a meaningful way. So thank you for having me. I'm very excited for our conversation. We'll
meet first met. Like, oh, this is somebody I could talk to for ages. And I know even before we hit
record, we were chatting for about 20 minutes. So I'm exactly thoroughly enjoyed it as well so far.
Yeah. And I think we have demonstrated kind of the thesis of today's conversation to how
(03:19):
curiosity does drive and give us joy. So I think it's going to be a lot of fun to talk about the
thing that we're experiencing in the moment. So let's start with a big broad question. What is
curiosity exactly? And how do we experience it, both inside ourselves and with other people and
(03:44):
their behaviors? What are your thoughts? I think for me, and I also looked up at the dictionary
definition just to see what the dictionaries say. And in Oxford dictionary, at least what I found
was it said curiosity is a strong desire to know or learn something. And for me, it is like if I
step aside, is it is that desire and drive to learn to get to understand somebody or like seek
(04:11):
understanding? So that for me, where curiosity comes from within and also how sometimes it exhibits,
I think with people when it comes in behaviors in people and other people's behavior, it's those
open-ended questions that we ask, you know, that's not just a yes or no, that gets the person to
(04:32):
tell a story. It's this ability to listen. For me, curiosity is a lot of listening to understand,
as opposed to listening to respond that we humans tend to do a lot of times. And then also,
it's the part of the kind of the willingness to experiment and admit uncertainty. Yeah, what
(04:57):
about yeah? Oh, for me, the word I wrote down in my own notes for this was craving. Craving for
something new or more, and it's usually knowledge, information. And sometimes it is craving that is
like a hunger, depending on how big the curiosity is. As I've been listening to you and thinking
(05:25):
about, you know, the curiosity shows up in our questions and in our listening, what occurs to
me are two parallel things. One, I'm going to guess that there are some cultural differences in
how curiosity shows up and how it's perceived. And I don't know that I'm necessarily equipped to
(05:47):
really talk about that. But I think it's an interesting thing for us to consider and just
have in our awareness. But knowing that not everyone's going to receive your curiosity in the
same way. It's a reminder to me, because I'm definitely talking to myself in this, is managing
(06:08):
your curiosity, corralling it a little bit and using your awareness of yourself and the other
person. So it is kind of this like conversational skill that's at the next level of it's not just
oh, are we engaged, but am I staying curious about how you are? I was sharing with you that is
(06:29):
something I have to really pay attention to myself in, because I will have these questions pop up,
and I'm like, oh, this person might be able to answer this, or I've not thought of it this way
before. And I know if I'm not managing myself, that I can take conversations, whether it's work or
(06:50):
social or other well off track and down odd roads. And especially when I was younger, I had a
penchant for asking really personal questions. And shame on me for that. And it's not, and it's
not like rudeness or bad manners. It's genuine curiosity about the other person. So I think
(07:14):
that's one of the things for us to consider in this conversation, particularly as we think about
the type of people you and I might coach, my listeners as well, that as a leader, are you, are
you applying your curiosity appropriately to the situation? And thinking about it as, as a skill,
(07:38):
but also as a tool that needs to be used appropriately, and sometimes even sparingly.
I appreciate, I really appreciate you bringing it up. But also what resonated with me when you were
speaking earlier, is there's a there's definitely a cultural piece to how, how the curiosity that
(07:59):
we know in terms of the English speaking world, and you know, being present in the United States,
how that might land actually in other cultures. So is we're speaking about opening questions,
or being curious about the person and their life. The line in other cultures is, is quite
different. It could be quite different. So understanding is we're kind of pulling together,
(08:22):
I think in the Russian speaking culture, and I've been in the States for a while,
however, there is a very different, there's a different approach. And particularly, sure,
you can ask open any questions, and it's shifting now, but you know, definitely years ago, before
it would not be a tell me more kind of statement, you know, and there is a part to where I'm from,
(08:49):
and form a USSR that there is, and everybody can look at communism and all that stuff,
all of that trains people to think and behave a certain way, particularly when it comes to their
safety. Yeah. So when somebody is asking you tell me more, I can tell you, I mean, it's much
different here now. But if I'm there, even now visiting, I would my ears will perk up. And I'll
(09:13):
be like, why do you need to know? If I come back to leadership, and just overall, if we're speaking
even from leaders that we work with, here, you know, in the United States, and if they work in
global companies, it is it's that curiosity of how do you bring your team together in a meaningful
(09:33):
way, but also like ask the questions that are conducive to whatever you're trying to create.
And and how you were saying what I really liked, pay attention, how your questions are landing,
and adjust accordingly. But that's all back to that presence and awareness. It's also the trust,
(10:00):
like how you would build trust, because again, depends on the culture, how open you make the
communication and some cultures would like it a little more closed, you know, we do know now with
all kinds of research without curiosity, you cannot drive innovation. So in all the companies are
all like that's the hot word, one of the hot words is one of the many hot words of today, one of the
(10:24):
many hot words is innovation. Well, you won't innovate without curiosity, like at all, you know,
definitely fosters growth. That's the leadership piece. And I think the last one for me with
curiosity is empathy, but you kind of think spoke to me is a part of paying attention how it lands
back to that awareness as well, is that empathy is essential to understanding how people around you
(10:52):
navigate anything, actual life and work, and it's all together. It's never separate, even though a
lot of times we would like it separate in different beautiful boxes, they will all they will all kind
of seep together. And so that to me, it really all of those tools, you know, as people say, well,
(11:15):
how do I trust and how do I, you know, do the team togetherness and all of those things, it takes
time, but it also takes like a very committed intention. And also like your ability, like your
presence and the quality of your presence with your team for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think, as I've
(11:39):
been listening to you, what's occurred to me is that in the conversation about leadership,
you know, one of the things in my notes to you I talked about is why does curiosity matter in
any conversation about leadership, you've covered this great punch list. What I think curiosity
is is a mindset. It's a lens. It's a behavior, a skill. It serves a lot of different purposes
(12:09):
for us in the world in general. What we do know is that that curiosity in humans is what has
contributed to our evolution, to our advancement. It is part of how we survive by staying alert
and engaged with our surroundings. So it has all of these functions for us. And thinking about this
(12:38):
human shared experience feeling tool, all the things that it serves, it's so important for
leaders to understand how am I using it? How are my team engaging with it? And how am I making it
safe? Yeah. When I approach them with my own curiosity and for them to be curious and questioning
(13:07):
as well. I think the safe piece is for sure, you know, there's, as you were saying about scientific
proof and sure, we're not clinicians, but we read a lot of data and we read a lot of, you know,
papers and stuff. And it's that part of the, you know, with a sometimes called psychological
safety or just overall the sense of safety. In us humans, it's a basic, you know, need.
(13:31):
And so when it's not met in certain ways, so we don't feel safe, we won't be curious either.
Or we won't be expressing or responding to the person who might be curious about something
if we don't feel safe. So not putting it all on the leader or not putting it all in like one
(13:52):
person or individual, but it always, it's back to the awareness and paying attention to
how safe is this environment and what can be done to make it safer. Just because if, you know,
if we're curious and we're asking some questions, we must be wanting some to understand something.
(14:13):
And so to get that information or to receive some feedback or just to some gain some understanding
that comes from a place of safety. And so I think for me in experience, particularly in HR
consultant, a lot of times people like, Oh, we want feedback. And I always go, Well, what are you
(14:34):
going to do with it? First of all, yes, that's the biggest piece always like we want the survey
and we want the feedback. And I said, if you're not planning to do something with it, please don't
do it because that's a killer. Like that's literally a morale killer. It's really hard to get out of
that later. So it's like, don't dig that hole if you don't have to. And it's also with people,
(14:58):
you know, with humans, we're all human, we take things, you know, some things a lot more personally
than than others. And so we'll go, Yeah, I might have an open door policy, give me any feedback,
and then we get upset at the person giving the feedback or it again, we're not listening with
curiosity to understand what is it, but we're just, you know, how do we rebuttal it? How do we
(15:22):
react or respond in a professional way? But I the person knows I'm really, really, really upset.
And so those are the things that does not create safety. So, you know, and I've been a leader
and they've been difficult conversations and difficulties in the same department, the same
organization, there's always two, like there's at least two people to every situation and every
(15:48):
conversation. So what part are you playing? It's always, I would always ask what part of my playing
here? How am I showing up? And how can I do, how can I do different for the person to, you know,
to for the person to respond differently? And I can't highlight enough how consistency is really
(16:08):
important, you know, in terms how you're showing up in challenging way or in, in a, you know,
encouraging positive way, at least it's consistent. So anyway, yeah. No, I really, really, really like
this space we've found ourselves in so quickly about feedback, because curiosity is such an
(16:32):
important element of the feedback process, whether I'm seeking it out. So I'm curious to know what
you think about me, how I show up, or in leaders, big responsibility of delivering feedback to people.
Unfortunately, people tend to equate feedback with negative, with constructive. It can, of course,
(16:54):
be positive. But if you do feedback without curiosity, it's, it's essentially storytelling,
it's not really feedback. And this is, I think, I think why curiosity is unfortunately, also
unfortunately, often left out of the leadership discussion, despite the importance it plays,
(17:18):
is that we've created this mental model of leadership is having to be all knowing,
all confident, all right, all the time. And sometimes the confidence needs to be,
I'm confident that I can't know everything. So let me get curious about this.
I love it. Yeah, I love it. Look, okay, so Kate didn't, didn't meet a deadline.
(17:45):
I'm not going to assume I know I'm confident that I can't know everything about this.
Let me get curious. Let me find out what happened. Why did things not go as intended?
When I train and coach people on delivering feedback,
it is, it's what, why, how question for things. It's crazy simple. Here's what happened. Without
(18:13):
any interpretation, it's like playing the tape back. Here's why it matters in a business context.
And that can be here's why it's great, right? Not just here's why it's an issue.
How you deliver it, you need to be direct and kind in equal parts.
Yeah. Support, celebrate, whatever it looks like, and then ask, what do you think? Or
(18:39):
is there more I need to know? Or do you see it differently? So feedback has to be based on
curiosity if it's truly effective. And when you're seeking it for yourself, as you've pointed out,
if you are not open and keeping, keeping the space safe for people, your curiosity is going to be
(19:02):
met with barriers. Absolutely. Well, barriers can guard, kind of, very guarded. And so you're
not going to get the feedback that you want. I really, I just like, I wrote it down actually,
because I was like, I actually, as a mantra, I'm confident I don't know everything. There are so
few people that walk in a space or lead from that space, actually. Yeah. As like yesterday,
(19:31):
as we were working through something with an organization, the client, it's that piece actually,
it's when the person has, which I call them like having their knuckles too tight, you know, kind
of like fist and knuckles too tight. Is they like, here's the list, this is how things go. Here's
how it's always supposed to go. And if there's any delineation or any change, so there's definitely
(19:52):
control piece. But it's also with like, I can tell you, they don't come to the situation with
this with a feeling or even actually approach is I'm confident I don't know everything. They're
definitely coming to this particular occasion. They're confident they know everything. And therefore
(20:13):
somebody made a mistake. And that's outside of this plan. And it comes with very difficult
experiences for people on both sides. And so it's just like being the intermediary and receiving
just kind of like, as you also correctly saying the stories, all we have, we were not there. We're
(20:37):
not in that situation. We also come when we're in certain situations, we also come with a different
power, different kind of dynamic and status. So I try to be mindful and aware of that that if I'm
in a situation, people won't behave the same way, because they know what place I take, you know,
I mean, where I stand, or what role I am in. And so that really comes with a different territory,
(21:02):
but it's just that part of knowing like, no, I know this is how it's going to go. And if it doesn't
go this way, what happens I'm listening to people's stories. And trying to piece it together where
each story just like what you were saying, what happened, you know, why it matters, like as a
person saying what happened, I am listening to two people's stories of the same occurrence. And
(21:26):
they have like quite a different story. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, and I think the
asking like I really like your ask the end piece of like, ask, is there anything else, you know,
whether or am I, is this landing correctly? Is this like, am I understanding this correctly? And I
always try to check with people as well. It's like, please like, kind of tell me what you heard me
(21:53):
say, or something like that. You know, I mean, did I get that? It's, people always add something,
almost all like maybe 90, 98%, there'll be 2%, like, yeah, you got the gist or this is fine. But a lot
of times a person will correct something and it actually changes like the flavor, the texture,
(22:13):
that just like the overall meaning or a thread. And you go, Oh, this is why this matters to you.
You know, and it really makes people feel hurt just because you are listening. And in order to tell
them like, this is what I heard, you really have to listen. Yeah, I wonder, I wonder if sometimes
leaders turn away from curiosity, because it does take more time. It does mean that things may not
(22:39):
be resolved quickly. I think 100%. Actually, it depends on organizational culture. And it also
depends on the person. And actually how like, I've also seen people who are, who would like to be
more curious and spacious, because it has to come, it has to come with spaciousness, you know, and so
(23:01):
it's interesting because what I was saying too is like, you've got to create spaciousness for people
to be curious, because it doesn't just just happen on the spot, like, okay, right now, we're all going
to get curious. It's like, okay, hold on, give it a second, you know, or a little more than that,
or depends on the topic that people want to get curious about, you have to create the container.
(23:23):
That takes time, right? And with curiosity, as you also said, you are genuinely, you're little
innately like that is actually in your makeup. Now that I'm getting to know you, curiosity is
truly in your makeup. I actually one year, I don't, I mean, some level of it was in my, in my
(23:44):
kind of, you know, we're all humans. But every year I pick a word that I want to embody or practice
more. And one year was curiosity. In anything that came my way, I watched myself instead of
closing to be like, Oh, I know how this is going to go. I had to slow down and go, what in this
(24:04):
instance in this occurrence, what can I learn? And what can I ask even one question? And I have to
say, I definitely trained myself to be a lot more curious from where I started. When you were saying,
like, Oh, the curiosity to you, it comes so naturally, I think we're always heading with this,
(24:24):
that it's not, it's not for everybody that it's a natural occurrence. And sure, it's a thing,
it's a skill, it's a, it is a mindset, though, that I completely agree with you. Actually,
because you've got to look at everything not from a closed perspective, but from an open,
that's work. It is, it definitely is. And it does, I know it can slow things down. Because you can
(24:51):
end up asking, you can ask too many questions, you can chase too many interesting ideas. Even
though humans have curiosity baked into them, there are people where it is more natural to let
the curiosity run rampant or go there first. And then there are people where, for whatever reason,
(25:16):
it doesn't come as easily. And I think, I think very quickly, I could ascribe that to personality
upbringing, education, all the experiences. But starting with that, just being curious about
yourself. And why is this something that I'm putting, I feel I have to put effort into,
(25:42):
when it is a human trait, getting curious about you is a great starting place for developing
the mindset and skill. And I think for me, I'm absolutely, I mean, you're definitely preaching
to the choir in a sense. But where I'm also go, it's it backs to the personal development
(26:03):
and the desire to learn and change things. The same thing, it comes from an individual going,
I want to take space and time to get to know myself. And I'm curious why I do what I do.
That is, I mean, hence I say that spiritual work, in a sense, because you really got it,
(26:28):
it's personal development, it's growth, it's uncomfortable, because we're all going to find
all kinds of things. And it's back to you, you're saying, it takes time.
And in our day and age, at the moment, and sure, we'll say this, like time is the only
non renewable resource, yet it feels like it speeds up. And so that sometimes could be as a luxury,
(26:52):
which I don't think so, because we're still going to end up in trying to figure out who we are and
what we're about. But it's back to yours. It takes time. It takes time. And it takes time.
But it's back to yours. It takes time. It takes setting time aside, even without, you know,
(27:12):
before you even be like, Oh, yeah, what am I about? Why is this the way it is? And, and setting that
time to explore. This is where I would like to, because I think it feels very natural to me
to introduce the way that you work, the whole person approach that you take in your coaching,
(27:34):
in your, your development of other people. Just as a good practice, if you could define that.
But I think as we've talked about the knowing yourself, studying yourself, empathy, curiosity,
this is where I see a very natural segue into talking about whole person. And obviously,
(27:58):
you and I have a coaching view. But then how do you lead that way as well? The whole person
approach to me is that we are, we are a whole person, wherever we show up, whether we are a,
(28:19):
you know, a sibling, a parent, a child to somebody or a leader or an individual contributor or whatever
our or business owner, whatever all of the what we say sometimes hats that we wear,
all of those parts are a part of a whole. It's all us. We just get sometimes to choose to be like,
(28:41):
Oh, I'm going to be this. However, to me, when we, particularly as we work with leaders, when we
lead people, the whole person approach is to understand who you are as a person. What are
your values? What's your personal journey? Where do you, what's your background? Where do you come
from? Probably what are the traumas that you've kind of encountered and gained on this journey
(29:08):
that brought so much wisdom, but they trigger things in you. How conscious of all of that. So
that's back to that awareness and consciousness in terms of leadership. How conscious are you of
all of that in you? And there are qualities to me that are innately mine, my strength, and there
(29:28):
are qualities that I have challenges with. They're going to show up, whether I'm a mother, you know,
as I'm coming as a mother and talking to my teenager, or I'm coming as a leader or a business owner,
because you, you can think you can compartmentalize things, but trust me, you cannot. That is the
(29:48):
whole person approach to me. And so when they're leader, when I'm working with the leader,
and I help them, I think on the journey of to kind of know thyself, your values, you innate,
like what matters to you foundationally, it's going to permit everywhere. And I encourage the
leaders to understand that the curiosity pieces that then get curious who your people are that
(30:12):
work for you and work with you, just like you are. That everybody has a story. Everybody comes from
somewhere. When we know a little bit more and are curious about humans, just humans around us,
when we're, when we bring humanity, I'm a big opponent, proponent of that is
(30:33):
bringing humanity, no matter where we go, that's kind of, you know, the whole conversation of
mindfulness and joy is that this is our only life on this planet at the moment. So how we live it,
and how we kind of step every step of every day matters for the quality of that life. And so
(30:55):
it's being curious about people around you. And yes, we're all in this together, we're doing the
work together. How we do it makes a difference. And so that's kind of where I come to the whole person
approach for themselves, but then also look at other people, you know, what inspires them,
(31:16):
or what's happening in their life right now that's challenging. So then you get to understand them
more. Yeah. Thank you for bringing up trauma as well. Yeah. That for me stretches back to where
we started thinking about cultural differences. And in the broadest definition of culture,
(31:39):
that's where you can start thinking about what are the, the boundaries, the triggers, the trauma,
the, the sore spots that people have, you mentioned pain points. Yeah. And that got me thinking I,
I've, my whole adult life, essentially, I've used the idea of people being broken. And that's trauma
(32:06):
that we're talking about there. And curiosity is a way to discover those places by giving your
attention to other people, which demonstrates care. Absolutely. And the word that I'm trying to be
bolder about using is love. Because I, I really do think one of the things that's missing from the
(32:31):
conversation about leadership in the modern workplace is that leadership should be an act of love.
And curiosity is such an easy entree into demonstrating that you care about and want good
things for the people that you work with whom you serve as a leader. Because if you're asking,
(32:56):
what are your values? How do you feel about things? What is your background? What are the
hard things for you? You can then always respond with care. You mentioned in talking about how
much more time and being curious can take. How it is a non renewable resource. We have limited time.
(33:20):
And unfortunately, we don't know how much time we have at the end of the day.
So in this conversation, I do think we have to make a little bit tongue in cheek, but we have to
make the business case for curiosity. Because what makes devoting time, attention and energy
(33:40):
to being curious? What makes it worth it for leaders?
You're speaking, you're asking the person for whom connection is one of my fundamental values.
And so, and just like that humaneness, humanity, peace and empathy, but definitely connection.
(34:05):
And I really love how you brought the leadership is active love. Like I definitely am
and working with that a lot more now to be like more bold with that word.
So for me, what's in it, it's so for me, that's a value to connection. So that's a very easy one.
What's in it for others? So it's actually touching in to finding out for each person,
(34:31):
there's something in their values that's going to matter. And literally, I would connect curiosity
to one of those values. If for somebody actually it is delivering result, like they're very result
driven, and it's neither it's I'm not qualifying. But it's like, I really, I really want to see us
(34:52):
achieve that goal. I can tell you that curiosity in your team, and you as a leader,
will get you to that goal with with different actually perspectives and different variations
of outcomes and you thought if you do it without it, right? Or your team, you have a retain it,
you know, like you retain staff a lot longer, if you express that curiosity. Just overall,
(35:19):
you know, curiosity is kind of releases dopamine for people because it's a rewarding experience,
we're getting into this like, Oh, I'm learning something in or you know, so it's it's creating
that like feeling good sensation. So for each leader, I would pick little a look at your values
just top three. And then one of them curiosity would be like how you would this would help you
(35:45):
with that. So for me as a leader, it was always connection, wherever, you know, realms I would
work in. And so that would always create connection up select, it's an easy one for me. For somebody,
you know, it could be, I'm just trying to think of other, you know, kind of like what the values,
there's resilience, for example, you know, for somebody, that's their value. And so,
(36:07):
in understanding your people and who your people are, and how they operate in this world,
will create resilience for them and for you as a leader, you will be a much more resilient team.
And so for me, that would be how I would look at it. Yeah, going back to the idea that curiosity
(36:29):
can take more effort for some people. If a leader is one of those people for whom curiosity is
effortful, they can still encourage it and allow it to flourish on their teams. And it may not be
something that they value deeply. But there is a benefit that's derived from employees having
(36:56):
tended, nurtured curiosity. You talked a little bit before about innovation,
the dopamine, those positive responses and experiences, increase engagement.
And there is buckets of research that tells us that highly engaged employees are more productive,
(37:18):
you know, lower waste, higher quality, better outcomes. So again, even if it's not something
that's natural to you, leader, you can look for it in your team and encourage it in your team
without having to maybe necessarily devote your time, even though I would encourage you to,
(37:40):
because it has positive benefits for you, but making it something that the team values
and demonstrates and deploys very regularly, consistently, all those good juicy words,
I think is really important. So there is this fundamentally making curiosity a way of working
(38:05):
has a benefit for your business, whatever type of thing you're leading.
Yeah, I mean, as you're highlighting some things, I think, as you pointed out, even as a leader,
you might not be as curious, but creating the container and this, you know, this container
for your team. But I also have to say, as a leader, you have to model the things you want to see
(38:31):
take place. And so if you personally are not curious, and yes, you can create for certain
things, curiosity, you know, kind of more the spaces where it kind of grows more.
When it comes to you and people bringing you things, if you're not curious, you will shut
(38:52):
things down. You will, you know, you will know like that to your point of like, you would be
confident that you know everything. And so you in that case, to me, then it's also like, as people
work through some things, is at least, if you're not curious, just at least be open minded, you
know what I mean to allow your people for or consider that to allow people bring things forward
(39:18):
to you in the sense of, you know, why don't we try this or how does this look like? And coming
from the space of at least the open mindness, if it's not digging deeper or making time,
as you were saying for curiosity, but as well, to be quite honest to just even if you literally,
(39:40):
if you're talking to anybody, if you're listening to anybody and you just, you just adopt one statement,
I would say, maybe that's for the 20 kind of 24, but it's like, tell me more one time, if you're
literally, no matter what somebody's saying, if you just say at the end of that question or sentence,
tell me more and just listen, don't don't run with with solutions, don't do anything,
(40:06):
just one time, because it's actually good to say a couple of times, you know, like completely,
like people will get to something very different if you keep going. But if you're really trying to
save on time and really like, I don't have time for this, well, say once. And if that's a practice,
just like I said, a curiosity was a practice for me for a whole year, is that if you say this
(40:30):
every day to every person one time, you know, and by the end of the day, you've said it 30 times,
for example, for anything, including your family, including your friends, including anybody, you
just adopt that concept for, I don't know, a week, a month, just something just like pick a
pick a time frame doesn't have you know, definitely more than a day. I think even a day, I think you'll see benefit. I can guarantee you, it will be such an amazing and very different experience
(41:00):
for the person doing this, because you will learn so much more than you ever thought you knew, just by saying that. Yeah, so I had a friend in college that kind of made fun of me because I had a trademark
heavy on the air quotes question that was sort of my version of tell me more it was how so. Ah, so you were, yeah exactly. How so? Like you make a statement or tell me something and it's, well, how is that? Tell me more.
(41:32):
I really like how our conversation is creating this sort of iterative rubric for building your own curiosity. The get curious about yourself first conversation.
And that keep an open mind. You don't have to have an answer for every single problem that your people bring you. You don't have to shut things down because you think you know the answer. You can say tell me more how so whatever fits your style.
(42:02):
Yeah, exactly. A style can be brought into that. So curious about yourself, open minded with others, even if even if curiosity is not your go to mindset.
I think those are two things that you can do. I have, I have in my mind what I think the third could be. If I can be so bold. And I think it's being very deliberate about stating when you're curious.
(42:33):
I say it a lot. You probably notice that even in this conversation. Oh, I'm curious. It's a way to introduce that this is a question because I crave knowing more about you or the subject.
And in terms of understanding other people, when there are cultural differences or differences of opinion, even a little bit of tension, saying I'm curious, I'd like to ask you about X.
(43:05):
That creates a space for people to know they're being invited, as opposed to some questions can come across as demands. The I'm curious is more of an invitation.
In my own experience, like I've, again, I ask a lot of personal questions because I get curious. And it's amazing what people will tell you.
(43:27):
And I've been able to talk with folks from different countries, different religious backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, you name it, and say, because it's genuine for me, say I'm very curious, may I ask you about X.
And I get to learn so much. And I think being very transparent that I'm here to learn is such an easy way to make the connections and to practice curiosity.
(44:03):
I'm smiling the whole time you're talking about this because it's such it could. So I love this part is because I might take it a little different way.
The way you ask and you approach and I've experienced you and saying I'm curious.
(44:24):
And then you're saying I'm literally hearing you right now, may I ask you about this? It lands very differently than there are people that I've experienced actually, and I've watched in organizations who use that phrase, I'm curious, as actually preface for an passive aggressive question.
(44:46):
And so when you're saying I'm laughing, I mean, I'm smiling because I was like, it's so easy to be like, and when you're saying like, Hey, sometimes I'm asking very personal questions.
I was like, yeah, because I could feel in you, you're genuinely curious. I have also had people absolutely saying I'm curious.
And then they ask a question that is a total job. Absolutely job. And I've come back to them actually and I looked at them and I went, Are you actually curious? Or are you jabbing at something that you would want to know because you have a story in your head?
(45:21):
So, yeah, so that's definitely like, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is so so to me as a leader or any human, actually, for all of us, when we say I'm curious, are you genuinely curious, you know, pay attention to this is back to yourself and knowing yourself.
And sometimes there's lots of us, I mean, we get back to like traumas and what we grew up with and what was modeled for us. And for the majority of people, we did not have really good communication modeling at all.
(45:52):
We're all relearning learning the hard way all kinds of ways. So it's not to say like somebody's perfect or in any way is better than other.
But it is it is what I'm what I'm saying is that, well, and I'm going to come from my culture, our cult definitely coming from my culture, it could be quite sarcastic.
And you could be quite like, quite sharp. And so what I know that energy. And so when that energy comes with, I'm curious, I was like, Oh, watch me, are you really curious, because this is not how that's landing.
(46:28):
Oh, yeah, it's like, well, with all due respect, right? Oh, exactly. And it's like, I'll do respect. Come on, I'm about to be down.
I'm about to not demonstrate respect to you. No, and I would be I would be lying if I said I've never said it that way. Of course I have.
Because because it can seem like this is going to soften the blow or I'm not going to come across the jerk. But this goes back to, am I aware of how I'm coming across and am I managing myself?
(46:55):
And am I even managing my curiosity? The passive aggressive side of it, because there can be the curious question is, what the heck are they thinking?
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What is what is my motivation? Is it because I want to learn that I'm craving something? What is it the the early psychologists? It's an impulse to better cognition?
(47:22):
Or is it I want to be right? And I want this person to be shown as being wrong? Yeah. Or I have, you know, a period curiosity to know this person's deep personal details.
What is my motivation? What is driving my curiosity? Very true.
(47:44):
And this is one of the questions I think is so important for leaders to ask themselves and any person on the street as well. That's where you respect other people's boundary and you demonstrate care and love, as opposed to just garden variety curiosity.
And I'm absolutely on board with that. It's just exactly it's like, as you were describing, it was just landing so lovely and so softly. And I was like, oh, I have had that statement done in so many ways that it would be like, no, again, we're not going into the curiosity here.
(48:20):
We just want to know. Yeah, fine.
My pants would be on fire if I said I'd never done that myself because I know I have it is it. And that's one of the reasons I think it's important to step back and talk about this is a it is a powerful tool because
(48:42):
it has I do, let's see if I can organize this spot. I do think that because curiosity is part of what makes us human that we have a tolerance for people that ask why we understand that asking why is a way of learning.
(49:05):
We find the curiosity of cats entertaining. So saying I'm curious, it does open a door. And the question is, am I opening that door, because I have an impulse to learn, or because I have an impulse to get more power, for example.
(49:27):
So we have to acknowledge that curiosity creates waves in us, which is a messy metaphor. And that in the workplace, especially because of all the power dynamics at play.
It's very important to understand, am I using this to its best effect. And by best effect, I mean, good and right, not the ends I'm trying to achieve necessarily. So just to all of that to say it's something to ponder.
(49:59):
Yeah, your motivation. Know your motivation. It's the motivation and intention for anything, right, but it's curiosity or anything actually it's like, what is your motivation intention behind that.
Yeah. Yeah. So I want us to turn our focus a little bit to the positive impacts of curiosity. You mentioned dopamine.
(50:23):
Yeah, there is research that shows people with high levels of curiosity experience more positive emotions. There's obviously a neurochemical aspect to that.
But I want to kind of stay in this vein of positive emotions and talk about why joy that in this case has been generated by curious open connections.
(50:52):
Why does that matter so much at work? Because I think joy at work is again, one of the things we don't talk a lot about.
No, and that's actually why I brought it a lot into my work. And actually, like how you're saying about the word love and bringing it more to the forefront. It was like as I started my journey as a consultant and a coach is like joy always comes up is because it's like it's a part of me.
(51:21):
So for me, it's always that's why that word was very important to me. So when we're saying exactly why is it so important at work is it's just important our life.
And so and we spend exuberant amount of time at work.
And so to me, if we're not experiencing joyful moments throughout the day in whatever in there's various forms of them, absolutely. And sometimes people some call it in positive cycle, it's a glimmer.
(51:55):
So it's like noticing things that catch your attention. And it's actually it's rewiring your brain. So just like curiosity. It's rewiring it's rewiring us to for to see challenges and opportunities to like to rewiring us to be open into somebody's
somebody's else's perspectives. Joy to me, it just rewires us to a more and it's such there's like, you know, positive peace that people go it's positive. We are as humans, we are naturally wired to for negativity, we see we have a negativity bias for anything.
(52:34):
That's just our unconscious wiring because without help to survive back to the traumas and survival and all of the, you know, adaptive techniques.
So for us to do in see things differently, but more make them as a mindset or how we view the world, we've got to work at it.
And some of us, I'm going to say, for me, it's probably a bit easier just because I am naturally a joyful person, like I find, as I was saying, those glimmers like if the sun is hitting the tree, and the rays are coming through that you know the tree leaves in a certain way it's
(53:10):
beautiful. And for me, the joy that you know it's like if we look at the definition I wrote that down as well is that it's a feeling of great great pleasure and happiness. And so when you ask a question like why is it important work, I want to say why not like that is a part of my life.
Work is a part of my day. And if I don't experience it. Oh, world, that's one of the reasons why I shifted roles and jobs in a sense is to be like, How do I experience. And it's not that I'm not experienced challenges but how what brings me joy.
(53:44):
And it's like this conversation is actually like this is going to keep me high for a while, you know, and then exactly like we wouldn't be talking if either of us didn't experience when we first met, didn't experience some side like the joyful piece it doesn't have to be exuberant it
doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be anything other than whatever feels good to you. However, that good feels like for some people it's really high for some people is this calm I actually sometimes call some like when I check in with myself there's a sense of calm joy.
(54:17):
There's just, you know, there's different variations in the volumes of it. Because to me joy. Also, when we come to work, it fuels things very different. It fuels innovation. It fuels resilience. It fuels creativity.
It fuels all kinds of things that are that make our life so much fuller and so much richer. And so, and back to like taking things seriously in my year of playfulness is that when we take things seriously and you know our work is really important and we're really important and how we do the work is it's like it gets really tight, very tight and very
(54:59):
very constricted. And it's very difficult to be in that space. So that's me coming from my own experience when I'm like, this isn't pleasant. I don't like it. I want lightness. I do one humor. I want noticing things that are beautiful, you know, and creating them, or noticing that
(55:20):
somebody, you know, like just saying hello, or paying attention to somebody for five minutes, lights their eyes up because there's a sense of connection. And it also feeds my connection, you know, the value of connection.
I've lived a day in a very meaningful way. And so to me, it's just, it brings a different level and quality to life, and work is a huge part of our life. So that's kind of back to the back to the workpiece.
(55:52):
So one of the ways that my curiosity plays out is I'm always really interested in the origin of words. So etymology is my, like my little secret pleasure. I like to chase after those meanings of words. And the way you're talking about joy demonstrates the root of those words.
(56:18):
So we use joy and happiness a lot of times very interchangeably. But etymologically, they're kind of different. Happiness and happenstance, or happenings, those come from the same root, where it's connected to events, to circumstance.
(56:39):
So our circumstances can make us happy or unhappy. Joy has the same root as Lord Boy. So something that regardless of what's happening in the water, it stays upright and above the waterline.
So cool. Yeah. And that's why sometimes it is euphoric and other times it's peaceful. Because there are, there can be instances where obviously the environment, and nobody can see my hand bobbing around, will influence the level, the intensity of it.
(57:16):
But it's a thing that, that stays regardless of the actual circumstance. And that is that core of peace and contentment, satisfaction, whatever you want to call it, is so important in the workplace, because the circumstances at work can change so rapidly.
(57:44):
I come from a healthcare background. So that is the day today. And in a cute care setting, you can start, you know, you can start the day great, and it can turn in an instant.
You can start the day awful, and miracles can happen. And if we depend on our circumstances for our emotional state, we're just going to be whipped around all the time.
(58:10):
It's a whiplash. It's exactly that. It's totally whiplash. Yeah. But if we can create an environment where there is a steady core of whether it's peace, or, again, euphoria, where joy exists, it's going to be easier for people to bounce back from the hard stuff, to innovate, to learn, to grow.
(58:37):
And if there is science that demonstrates for us, being curious brings this thing, this anchor point for us. Why wouldn't we want that? Not just at work, but in our whole lives.
Exactly.
I really like the boy kind of visual, and yes, people could not see your hands bobbing around. But actually, like for me now, when I have the joyful moments, I will think of it to be quite honest, because I've had that as an anchor for other kind of things.
(59:14):
I've never thought of joy, but it's actually for the harder challenges of the times. It's like, okay, how do I stay connected to the bottom of the ocean, while the wind or things are kind of bobbing around and moving.
I think it's more of a resilience piece, and being within the storm, but staying upright. And so now I love that like a pivot on it as well for the joy piece, and the etymology that you were saying, of like, I've never thought of external factors and happiness and happenings, what's happening outside of us versus very much.
(59:53):
So joy to me is like that innate internal thing that makes a big difference. Exactly. I love this topic today just because it's actually reminding me of that word and having more and more of that in my life.
Because with people that we think we know, and I'm doing this in air quotes, particular family, siblings, whoever, we stop being curious. We stop being curious who they are, what they are.
(01:00:26):
And at the same time, we all know that we as humans generally tend to grow and develop and change. And sure, some don't change, but are you curious, you know, why, or, you know, if you're noticing something versus, I know and I've changed in a lot, even in just like the last couple of years.
(01:00:49):
So if somebody comes, and I noticed it's actually triggers me when somebody comes who've known me at that time a while back, and be like, Oh, you do this this way or you all like I know this about you and I'm thinking, not anymore actually.
Yeah, I don't know. That's not it.
Yeah, my parents have been married for 53 years.
(01:01:12):
Wow.
And they are still learning things about each other.
Which is delightful, absolutely delightful, but it's, it's just you can't know another person fully.
But wanting to be known is one of our core desires as humans.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know.
(01:01:33):
So what makes it possible for us to be known? Well, it takes, it takes two mindsets, curiousness, and I would say courage to be open.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, and those both take both of those take a little bit of courage actually to be curious and to be open.
(01:01:56):
And that's what makes connection possible.
And then connection is the thing that we can see play out in people's engagement at work in their connections in their communities, their ability to learn and grow.
All of the benefits that we reap when we have significant connections around us.
(01:02:20):
It does, you know, there's the that kind of trope about, you know, in order to be interesting to people be interested.
When we're interested in other people, when we're curious, it makes us attractive to that man.
It doesn't have to be like physically attractive.
It's not physically, but it's definitely intellectually.
But that's how, you know, there are there is a lot of literature out there about how expressing interest in others is a way to start any sort of engagement.
(01:02:50):
And when you say interest in others, that's just curiosity wearing a business suit.
Really? Yeah.
Another, another, yeah, another kind of wardrobe.
Yeah, I completely agree with you.
Exactly.
So I realized when I was getting my notes ready that this episode is going to be the last episode of 2024.
(01:03:16):
I thought rather than my sort of, hey, what are what are your final thoughts, big ideas or takeaways?
My standard question.
I thought what I would ask for this last episode of the year is to close with the thoughts or recommendations for how our listeners can put curiosity into practice in order to best foster joy at work in the new year.
(01:03:42):
Oh, very good.
You know, when we talk about curiosity is making so making space for it in different ways. So one of the ways is if you can just encourage experimentation and celebrate learnings or failures or however you want to call it, celebrate it because this is how we're learning versus oh, we made a mistake, fix it.
(01:04:05):
So it's the experimentation and having that change the narrative and change the words around learning and the things that are, you know, kind of working or not working.
So that's one thing. The second one, I'm very big on check ins for meetings if I'm leading a meeting.
(01:04:28):
So one of the suggestions or ideas I would have so you know, check in can look a lot of ways and I remember you also mentioned, you know, time is definitely keeping my time and time is precious.
But you would be I mean I think so those of you who are doing check ins you definitely know that that connection makes a difference to people and people kind of ease into a meeting.
(01:04:51):
And if we are in the aspect of curiosity, I would say if you could start a meeting with the curiosity check in and a question suggestion might be like, what's one thing you're curious about today.
And then if you have time, as you know, as we were talking about time is actually one of the other ideas that I share with clients is called like for example, like an exploration hour is actually taking time aside and setting time aside and planning for it.
(01:05:20):
But if there's a topic of there's something that you actually don't know the answer to and you want, you come from with your team exploring and is create the space for joy.
You don't create it in a work setting, meaning particularly as a leader. Same thing, set a little bit five minutes in a group meeting, ask somebody as you walk in, like, you know, in the morning.
(01:05:41):
And it's like, what did you notice today? They brought joy, laughter, smile on your face. Inadvertently, people, even no matter how grumpy they are, they will pause and they will think of something and they will do it and even if they roll their eyes, trust me, their internal space will shift.
Yeah, you know, so those are a couple of things that I've, I would, I would say might make a difference. Yeah.
(01:06:08):
I would like to add to that. I think that probably complimentary to all of that great stuff that you talked about getting really preoccupied with questions over answers.
It's a way to build your own curiosity to make it less effortful. If you find it that way, it's a way to show attention for other people, whether you're getting curious about yourself, asking yourself questions or asking them of others, just get really preoccupied with getting good at questions.
(01:06:46):
And then I'm going to go back to something I said before is let yourself be confident that you don't know everything.
Yeah.
Turn that. I love that one.
Yeah, turn the, I have to know everything on its head and be confident that you don't.
It's a way to be gentle with yourself and open up to all of the possibility of things you can learn and discover and enjoy.
(01:07:15):
No, that's the one. The last one is for sure. It's like, it's like, be confident. I'm confident. I don't know everything in the part. Yeah. I love it. I love that one. That was the one. Have a whiteboard.
I'm like, I'm writing this on the board.
That makes me feel like I've, I've arrived to something.
Exactly. I am writing that on the board to remind me. So thank you. This is, this is terrific.
(01:07:40):
This has been absolutely delightful. Thank you so much.
It's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for such an engaging and super fun conversation.
(01:08:13):
I'd love to hear it. Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation until next time.
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