January 28, 2025 • 64 mins
The right amount: A conversation about leadership styles.
In this episode, Kate Johnson and guest Paul Thornton explore leadership styles: the practical application of different leadership behaviors and how they impact people and organizations.
The discussion covers the three primary leadership styles – directing, discussing, and delegating – and how effective leaders adapt their approach based on the needs of their team members and the circumstances at hand.
Kate and Paul also tackle the challenges facing leaders today, such as finding the courage to speak up and dealing with constant change.
- Connect with Paul on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-thornton-5061216/
- Check out his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V4T43zLi_U&t=1090s
- Browse Paul’s books: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Paul-B-Thornton/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3APaul%2BB%2BThornton
Additional resources:
- Situational Leadership https://situational.com/
- Crucial Conversations https://cruciallearning.com/courses/crucial-conversations-for-dialogue/
- Everything DiSC© https://www.everythingdisc.com/what-is-disc/
- CliftonStrengths https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/252137/home.aspx
Got something on your mind? A tricky situation at work? A leadership topic you’re curious about? Share your questions here: https://www.one23ltd.com/comfyhq
https://www.instagram.com/one23ltd/
Music by Geoff Harvey from Pixabay
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 limited.
(00:08):
This is your host, Kate.
I've referenced several traditional leadership theories during the course of this podcast.
These include the great man theory, transformational leadership, and situational leadership, just
to name a few.
These theories are an effort to describe and classify why certain people become leaders.
(00:30):
Is it a trait or set of characteristics?
Is it a specific mindset or a chain of events?
By naming the why, these theories hope to point the way to great leadership.
Today I want to scratch below the theories and look at styles.
Rather than occupy ourselves with the why, this conversation will focus on how.
(00:55):
What are some of the ways leadership shows up and what behaviors distinguish certain
styles?
I particularly enjoy the play on words that leadership style offers, because it's very
like choosing an outfit.
What style will you wear when you walk out into the world to lead?
While the frameworks built by various theories and the styles connected with each are very
(01:20):
closely related, my intent today is to help you get clear on what style your leadership
is wearing, how people see and experience you as a leader.
I'm fortunate to have Paul Thornton as my guest today, because Paul literally wrote
the book on this topic, Leadership Styles, Directing, Discussing, Delegating.
(01:45):
In addition to this title, he has published more than a dozen other books focusing on
leadership skills and success.
His mission is to help parents, teachers, coaches, and team leaders become more effective
managers and leaders.
And I can't think of a better guest to join me for today's conversation.
(02:09):
Welcome to the comfy chairs, Paul.
I'm really glad to have you with me this morning and would love to give you a chance to introduce
yourself, please.
Well first of all, Kate, thank you for having me on.
I've been a student and teacher of leadership for the past 30, 40 years.
(02:29):
I love the subject.
I think there's a lot to learn about it.
There's a lot of different theories and models and concepts.
I've been a leader in various situations.
I've done coaching of people to help them become better leaders.
I've written a lot of books on the subject.
(02:50):
So I think I have a lot of the theory and concepts to it.
And I've actually done some leading.
So I think I have practical, you know, real world experience doing it, you know.
So that's an important point.
Yeah.
There's theory and practice and that's kind of, that's actually kind of the whole intent
(03:11):
of today's conversation is to say, yes, theories are important because it helps us figure out
how practice can happen.
But really at the end of the day, how you show up, how you behave, how you lead is kind
of the thing that actually matters regardless of whatever theory you espouse.
(03:36):
And there are some things where I think theory is sufficient.
But when it comes to people leadership, you need to have that experience.
I think the best place for us to start is what are the indicators of great leadership?
If we're going to talk about leading better, what does that actually look like?
(03:59):
Love to hear your thoughts.
Well, good question.
I think that, you know, leaders, when I first of all, when I think about leaders, thinking
about could be a parent, teacher, athletic coach, team leader, manager, you know, so
it's a wide spectrum of people that can take on this leadership role.
(04:23):
But when I think some of the some of the really good leaders or great leaders, kind of three
things come to mind.
Number one, they of course set a good example.
They have strong alignment with what they say and do.
You know, they have credibility.
Number two, they're able to diagnose the situation they're in.
(04:48):
They're good at, as they say, reading the room.
You know, they can figure out what's going on.
What's the biggest problem or issue?
And then thirdly, they provide the right amount of what's needed.
Think about like coaching or giving feedback or delegating.
(05:10):
You know, you can do too much of it or you can do too little.
And providing the right amount is going to help the person maximize their effectiveness.
Too much information, too much feedback is really not helpful.
(05:30):
I play tennis and I have a I've had various tennis coaches over the years.
And on occasion, the tennis coach will tell me, you know, eight things to remember in
my head is spinning.
You know, you've heard that example before.
Yeah, there's so much going on in your head that you forget to even, you know, hit the
(05:51):
ball, you know.
So again, providing the right amount of feedback, the right amount of coaching, the right amount
of direction is going to be most helpful.
So the really great leaders, I think, know the sweet spot of what's appropriate.
Now, I'm not saying you always are in the middle of, you know, the spectrum.
(06:15):
Sometimes you need to provide a lot of feedback.
Sometimes you need to provide very little.
Sometimes coaching might take a minute and other times it might take 30 minutes, you
know, so it varies.
So I think those are three things that come to mind that, you know, highlight some of
the really, really effective leaders.
(06:35):
Yeah, I heard you talk about credibility right off the bat.
Yeah.
Setting an example, being consistent and that reading the room, the diagnosing the situation
and doing the thing that's appropriate to it.
I would shorthand that as discernment.
(06:59):
I think I would add awareness and I also see that that somewhat rolled up into credibility
and discernment too.
I like to call it out that there's that awareness of me, awareness of others and awareness of
circumstances too.
Yeah, I would agree.
I think the leader certainly needs to be self-aware.
(07:23):
You know, you need to be aware of what you stand for, your beliefs, your values.
That's really important.
Aware of the situation you're in, what's going on, looking at the hard data, the numbers,
tell you a story, looking at what people are feeling.
(07:43):
You know, that's also important.
Yeah.
They say leaders have to connect with people's hearts and minds and to connect with their
hearts, you got to understand what are they feeling, you know, what's their emotions at
the moment.
You know, that's all important as well.
Yeah.
I always like to add, I think hearts and hands or sorry, hearts and minds or the head in
(08:09):
the heart are great touchstones for us to talk about in leadership.
And I always like to add hands that we're really trying to get that whole self involved.
I agree.
What people think, what they feel and what they do.
(08:29):
And while we can't dictate thought or feeling, we want to be aware of it.
And those are the best leaders that recognize that they have to take that into account if
the hands are going to do the necessary work.
I'm jumping around a little bit because you mentioned this right off the bat and I want
(08:52):
to call out how much I appreciate that you recognize that leadership is not limited to
a title or even the business setting.
Because that's something that because so much of my preoccupation is with people managers
as a consultant, even in the form of this podcast, that's not the only place you see
(09:16):
leadership though.
So I'd like to take just a little bit of time to chew over the idea of why is it important
for us to talk about leadership and other venues?
Well I think it's important because everyone, as we talked about before, has the opportunity
(09:38):
to step up and make a difference and add value.
For example, my 12 year old grandson a couple weeks back, one of his classmates was bullying
another classmate.
And he observed this and knew what was wrong and he went over and confronted the bully
(10:04):
and said what you're doing to Jason isn't right.
You know it's hurtful and he's a good guy and you shouldn't be saying what you're saying.
You need to go and apologize to him.
And you know to me that I was so proud of my grandson and here's an example of a 12
(10:24):
year old child stepping up and making a difference and adding value and influencing the person,
the bully to realize what they were doing was wrong.
And I think the bully was doing it to get attention and all that.
So to your point, from a 12 year old up to a 90 year old, there's plenty of opportunities
(10:52):
to speak up, say something, do something that's going to help the person or the situation
improve or be more effective or align more with your values, that type of thing.
So there's all sorts of opportunities.
(11:12):
No, you don't need the title of your leader.
No, anyone if they're willing.
If they're willing.
Now being a leader, you have to bring up difficult topics, you have to give some candid feedback,
you have to confront difficult people like this bully as I mentioned.
(11:33):
It's not always easy.
It's not always fun and games.
It's difficult.
And a lot of people would rather not have the conflict or you know, get into the issue
with the person.
And so they say nothing and do nothing and you know, life goes on.
So I agree with you though.
There's plenty of opportunities for all of us to take on this quote leadership role.
(11:59):
I had the chance recently I met a young woman who is a high school teacher by training and
has moved into a role where she is now kind of supporting and leading fundraising programs
for high school students.
Yeah, connected to a nonprofit.
(12:21):
She's coordinating the work that they do and her focus is not on I mean, obviously the
fundraising is important.
The mission of this particular organization is really important to her.
But her focus is on developing leadership skills and those students.
I'm hoping to have her on the podcast in the spring as well.
(12:42):
But we had this really wonderful conversation about that she is working this long game that
what she's doing is creating that next generation of people that are able to have courage, to
have influence, to build credibility, all of those pieces.
(13:04):
And it's one I think it's wildly important work.
But also that clarity of understanding that you don't have to have a team of employees
that you can lead from every place.
It is so important.
And I see it translate over into the workplace too.
(13:25):
That yes, you can have a manager title, but you can also have people leading from the
desk.
I come from healthcare.
That's something I talk about a lot because it's what I know so well.
And in the field of nursing, there's a concept of the bedside leader that even at the bedside
(13:49):
that direct caregiver has leadership responsibility.
And that's something that I really latched onto because I think we should infuse that
across not just the healthcare industry, but everywhere.
Bedside, deskside, register side that we can and should be leading.
(14:10):
You talked about choice, your grandson.
And by the way, what a great thing to be proud of him standing up to a bully.
I hope the whole family is celebrating him.
We celebrate him all the time.
And I have five grandsons and other grandsons have done something similar.
(14:31):
So I'm proud of all of them.
This particular one plays ice hockey and he was just elected captain of his team.
He's a team builder, but he's also willing to talk to people when they're not following
team rules or things like that.
And he's had several examples again on the role of captain of his team of speaking up
(14:57):
and saying, hey, so and so, we agreed we were going to do X, Y, Z and you're not doing it.
So again, I'm blown away by some of these things that my daughter tells me about and
then my grandson fills in the details.
So yeah, very proud.
Well, something that you mentioned in that account of his leadership was the choice.
(15:23):
He chose to stand up.
He chose to try to influence a peer.
And I like talking about choice in this context, frankly, for no other reason than it sort
of flies in the face of the great man theory.
And while I know that we're focused on style and practice over theory, I do think it's
(15:47):
important to say that some of those theories are fundamentally flawed and we want to avoid
some of the styles associated with them.
I particularly like any time I can ship away at the great man theory while it's been broadly
debunked.
I do think there are some people that are like, this was somebody who was born to lead.
(16:12):
You know, no, no, you have to, you have to make choices along the way.
It is not something that you have no decision making ability in.
And that's one of the reasons choice is one of the reasons I think style is an important
conversation for us because people do choose to lead.
(16:32):
You may have some abilities and traits that make it easier for you than for other people
like your grandson.
You mentioned the term natural leadership abilities, but he is choosing how he administers
those if you will.
And that choice is where style comes into play in your book, leadership styles.
(16:57):
You outline three particular styles and I will confess I've only read the introduction
to the book.
I haven't gotten all the way through it yet, but I like how you start off with, you know,
here are, here's a big long list of just some of the styles that are referenced out in the
world and how you, you take a stance to simplify it and say really fundamentally there are
(17:25):
three styles directing, discussing and delegating.
I'd like to have you walk us through what those are in their most essential form, please.
Sure.
I like to boil things down to make them as simple as possible, practical and usable.
So you're right.
(17:46):
Three styles directing, you tell the person what to do, how to do it, when to have it
done by.
If a person has no experience, they've never done the task before, they want and need direction.
They want and need a roadmap of steps they need to take to get the job done.
(18:10):
When you use a directing style, the person is learning to pay attention, to listen, to
ask questions, to then go and do what they need to do to get it done and meet the deadline.
And I think those are all very important skills that, you know, people need to learn.
(18:33):
Now one of the problems with the directing style is sometimes people use the style when
the person knows what to do.
So it's like micromanaging, you know, the person's done it 28 times, you don't have
to be telling them one more time what they need to do, they know.
So don't use it inappropriately, use it when there's a need.
(18:58):
You also might want to use the directing style in a crisis or an emergency situation.
You know, if the house is burning down, you want someone to very quickly make decisions,
give directions, you know, tell people what to do.
The second style, discussing, basically like you're doing today, you're asking questions.
(19:22):
The leader asks questions to see what the person thinks about certain problems and opportunities,
how they would proceed, you know, what steps they would take if they were going to take
on this project.
When you use a discussing style, the person learns to think because you're asking them
(19:46):
questions so they got to think of an answer.
They're learning to collaborate if you're in a group setting, build on the ideas of
others.
They're also learning when it's time to make a decision.
You know, discussion is good, but at some point you got to make a decision.
(20:06):
Matter of fact, that's one of the problems with the discussing style.
You know, you and I have all seen some managers that go on and on and on and on, some meetings,
and nothing is decided.
You know, that's not productive.
So at some point a decision needs to be made.
And then the third style is delegating where you are giving the person responsibility and
(20:34):
authority to on their own do whatever they think they need to do to get the task done,
right?
You're empowering them.
That's appropriate, of course, when the person has some experience and some know-how.
It's also used maybe as a developmental tool.
You want to challenge the person with a project and see how they're going to do.
(20:58):
When you use that style, people learn to work independently, you know, on their own.
They need to set goals and develop a plan and engage other people and get the resources
they need and do whatever is needed to hit the deadline that was agreed upon up front.
(21:19):
Now again, you know, you can misuse this style.
A lot of people overdelegate to their top performers.
You know, they know their one or two superstars will always get the job done in a great way.
So they keep delegating to them and they burn them out.
And that's not good.
(21:40):
You want to make sure you're delegating appropriately and giving everyone the chance to see, you
know, what they can do on their own and how they can develop and what have you.
So I think I mentioned it, but when you use a delegating style, people are learning some
very important skills also to plan and make decisions and think through options and go
(22:04):
to certain people for advice and guidance if need be.
So again, those are all important skills.
So my point is, you know, you want to, as a leader, you want to help people succeed.
So you want to use a style that's going to help them.
And depending on their background and the task that they're assigned to do, you're going
(22:30):
to decide what style makes sense.
And as a leader, also you need to be flexible and adjust as needed.
I might start out using a directing style, but realize, well, this person, you know,
they're very competent and capable and, you know, move to a discussion and ask some questions.
How would you do this or that?
What do you think here?
(22:50):
And then even move to delegation.
So you need to be flexible and use the style that's going to help the person get the job
done.
And as I have implied, I think that when you use the right style, secondarily, it's helping
the person develop the skills they need for ongoing future success.
(23:13):
So that's a side benefit, I guess you will.
So those are kind of the three styles in a nutshell.
But I think we use them all the time, parents, teachers, coaches, you know, it's something
we do.
Matter of fact, when I was a manager and leader in the same meeting, you know, I'd be using
(23:35):
all three styles and times I'd be directing other times would be discussing a topic.
Other times I'd be delegating to this one or that one to take on this project and get
it done by this date, you know.
So every day I would use all three styles.
And like I say, in some meetings, I would use all three styles.
(23:55):
So yeah, I guess in a nutshell, those are the three styles.
I love it.
Now I would be three D's.
Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't mention situational leadership.
Is it something that some people listening may be familiar with?
And I know that you have had the opportunity to do some study with Dr. Hersey.
(24:17):
You're very familiar with Dr. Blanchard as well.
I like this take or evolution, if you will, of the situational leadership framework or
theory because it is so simplified.
Yeah.
I think it gives a much it's more intuitive.
(24:39):
Yeah.
I was fortunate, Kate, in college to have both Professor Hersey and Professor Blanchard
as my instructors.
And Professor Hersey, incidentally, was a phenomenal teacher.
(24:59):
And he taught his class using the four styles that are described in the situational leadership
model.
Beginning of the semester, he was very directing.
Then he got into quadrant two, quadrant three, we had more discussions.
And then the last two to three weeks of the semester, he delegated.
(25:22):
We had to go out and do different things, interview people, you know, analyze case studies
and what have you.
But great teacher.
I always thought that I was a little bit confused when he presented it between quadrants two
and three.
I think quadrant two was selling and quadrant three was participating.
(25:44):
And as I got into the business world and started working and observing and reflecting on, you
know, what I was doing as a manager or leader, it made sense for me to boil it down to the
three basic styles.
So that was kind of my evolution of moving from there four to my three.
(26:07):
Simplicity for me is very, very, very important.
You are singing my song, sir.
The complexity of leadership should not come from how you do it.
The people make things complex enough.
Yeah, right.
I also really appreciate it just personally, it very much resonates with me how you struggled
(26:33):
a little bit with that whole idea of selling.
I've had a bur in my saddle for a while about the idea of leaders trying to persuade or
convince employees to do or not do something.
And, you know, I'm not saying that leaders must be dictatorial.
(26:58):
Leadership isn't an act of salesmanship.
It's not an act of convincing that, yes, influence does play a role, but the leader's job is
to be very clear about this is what's expected of you.
And if you do it, here's the natural positive consequence.
And if you don't, here is the natural negative consequence that will follow.
(27:22):
And then being consistent about that and adapting to the people's needs.
Yes, but you're not there to try to like, weedle and convince and persuade people.
You just have to be clear.
This is where we're going.
This is what we're doing.
These are the mindsets that can help you be successful, but I'm not going to tell you
(27:46):
how to think.
These are the behaviors that are needed because they are directly connected to the results
we're trying to achieve, not because I said so.
And this is the by when.
And even if you are delegating, there has to be this thread of clarity that runs through.
(28:09):
So I think it's when you talk about directing, because maybe it's high stakes or high risk
or it's somebody's first day on the job, you are spelling all of that out.
They have no point of reference.
They're learning it.
As they become more familiar, as trust is built between you and them, they trust like,
(28:33):
Paul is going to tell me exactly what I need to know and give me feedback and give me an
attaboy if I need it.
Or Paul is going to be fair and just if I make a mistake.
Then as you go through discussion and into delegation, you still have to pull forward
(28:57):
this.
Hey, this is what the expected behavior and outcomes are.
You may not have to get into as much detail.
You may not have to spend as much time, but you're not there trying to sell to people.
And I, I, I agree with you.
(29:19):
Leadership is a fabulous theory and in practice, the persuading component, the, I have to convince
people I've struggled with that in, in the real world as well.
Particularly when I've seen leaders use it as an excuse for not getting the results that
(29:42):
are needed.
Yeah.
Well, I would add to that, Kate, that leaders are involved in selling and implementing change.
You know, they want to change the status quo.
They want to make things better.
(30:03):
And we talked earlier about the idea that the leader can influence and appeal to people's
head, heart and hands.
And if I'm trying to implement a major change initiative, I want to get buy-in of my employees.
So I got to think about what's going to be most appealing to them.
(30:27):
If I present a logical argument with facts and figures, is that going to sell them?
Or do I try to connect to their emotions?
Do I try to tell a story or relate to how they'll feel once this change is implemented?
Or do I appeal to their hands?
Do I ask them to try something for two weeks and then tell me what they thought, how it
(30:52):
worked, what are the benefits, what do they see?
You know, so how am I going to do that?
Now depending on the situation, I am going to engage in a certain amount of selling and
trying to influence them to buy into the change that I'm advocating and want to put in place.
(31:19):
But realistically, there are times when I'm not going to have the opportunity to sell
them and convince them.
Career management has said this change is going to be effective January 1st and you
need to do X, Y, Z to make it happen.
And it's much more of a directing style that all of us need to do or use this new technology
(31:42):
going forward.
You're going to receive a week of training and blah, blah, blah.
It's a change that's being put in place and we all have to get on board and move forward.
Other times if I'm not quite sure on exactly what the change is going to be, I might have
a discussion with my team or department on what do they think and what are the pluses
(32:03):
and minuses and get their input and thank them for it and then tell them once I'm going
to factor their thoughts in and decide what is the best way to go.
So again, it's very situational I think, but you got to look at a lot of different factors
(32:24):
and diagnose what will make the most sense, what's going to help improve the situation
and make things better.
So I want to be careful that I don't do one of two or both of two things.
I don't want to get us off track and I don't want to drag us into a debate, but this is
(32:50):
something I frankly I feel very strongly about because interestingly enough, the whole convincing
question is something that I landed where I am on that during change leadership situations.
Being in those circumstances of consulting and coaching executive leaders about how they
(33:15):
were doing the work of leading change and there seemed to be this sense of, well I just
can't convince them.
I do not believe that change leadership is an act of selling.
It's not about creating buy-in, it's about increasing and ensuring understanding and
(33:38):
the messages that we craft for people need to appeal in the right measure to the head
or heart as we try to engage them in the change.
But if a change has been decided upon, whether it's externally like a change in the law or
(33:58):
there's a business need that is driving it, it does nobody any good to spend time in trying
to make people quote unquote feel good about it.
Now this is not to say that you don't have empathy for people's resistance or struggles
(34:19):
with change.
All of this has to be done with kindness.
And one of the roles of a leader during change is not to convince but to increase understanding.
You want to make certain people understand what the change means for them and what's
expected of them before, during and after.
(34:42):
And if people are not able to become congruent with whatever that change expects of them,
you have other difficult decisions and conversations that you have to address.
I think sometimes leaders don't explain the why the change is being made.
(35:02):
I think if you get into the why that people accept it more and again buy in understanding,
your word understanding is more accepted by the person.
Okay I see what they're doing, why they're doing it and okay I'll get on board.
(35:23):
I think you can overlay the styles with the nature of the change and where people are
in that path to understanding, path to comprehension.
Definitely that you know initially as they're kind of working through it and trying to understand
(35:45):
depending on the nature of the change, you may be at one end of the spectrum or the other.
You may have to be more directing.
I'm telling you the what, why, how, when or if it's a long-term change, the stakes aren't
very high, there could be more of that discussion and delegation of hey go out and experiment
(36:05):
with this and come back and tell me what it's like.
So you know I said I didn't want to totally pull us down a path here but I really love
that we've ended up on change because that's one of the places where your style as a
leader is so important and your flexibility and adaptability.
(36:29):
I'd like to use this chance to go to one of the questions that I shared with you because
I see a natural connection here and that's what characteristics and skills can support
someone wanting to enter or improve their leadership.
Curiosity I think is one of the skills that is important in this context.
(36:55):
What else would you add?
I think I was thinking about that and I think curiosity is really important.
Being you know curious why people think and feel a certain way, probing and digging, understanding
(37:17):
the why behind the behavior, that's very important.
I mentioned earlier I think a very important skill I think that's overlooked is the ability
to diagnose situations.
You know it's no different than a good doctor is able to diagnose the patient effectively
(37:38):
and successfully.
A good leader is able to diagnose the environment that they're in and get a clear picture and
clear understanding of what's going on and why it's going on and what are some steps
they can take to as I said before improve it or make things better.
(38:03):
To your point certainly adaptability these days there's so much coming at us, there's
so much change happening in the world.
You need to be adaptable and flexible and be willing to say well this isn't working
I need to try something else.
(38:25):
I need to alter this or tweak this to be more effective.
Being open to feedback and being humble that my way is not always right and I need to be
open and keep learning and growing myself and make changes as needed to be again more
(38:47):
effective that's my goal, my ultimate goal.
So I think those are some skills or characteristics that leaders need to work on and keep working
on.
This leadership thing as you know Kate is a lifelong journey that we're always trying
to learn and gain new understanding and new insights and you know never ending.
(39:13):
I'm so glad you brought up curiosity not only because an episode just a few before this
one airs addresses curiosity and joy and the connection they have but curiosity is so beneficial
for so many aspects of life and super beneficial for leadership.
(39:38):
Everything that you've talked about like leading by example you have to be curious about what
is it that people see as a method of role modeling.
Can I get curious about that?
Diagnosis, diagnosis cannot happen without at least asking yourself questions and then
(39:58):
providing the right amount of what's needed.
If you're not curious about what is the right thing and the right amount you will always
miss the mark on that because I have a framework that I'm kind of constantly working and refining
in the back of my mind and curiosity sits in an important place in it.
(40:23):
I want to call out empathy as well that empathy I think is where leadership and learning where
they start and in our discussions that could probably be subbed out for the concept of
awareness whether it's self or other empathy has this part to play in can I sense the feelings
(40:53):
the interactions the dynamics can I imagine what this is like for someone else.
That then foments curiosity in us.
If I'm picturing if I'm experiencing your feelings I have an opportunity to become curious
about who you are what got you there and then that curiosity can give me courage to ask
(41:21):
the hard questions to do the thing that's necessary to stand up to the bully and when
I do the thing I start to develop muscle I start to develop endurance because leading
is hard work people have to be flexible adaptable and resilient and I think that can be somewhat
(41:49):
captured in the concept of endurance.
I think some leaders they're empathetic and they get a clear understanding of how people
are feeling but they don't go to the next question of the curiosity of why they're feeling
that way you know how long have they been feeling that way what are the drivers what
(42:13):
are the key factors what would they like to see happen you know what I mean they do they
kind of stop at one level where if they probe a little bit further they'd have a deeper
richer understanding of that person and then they can help the person more because they
(42:34):
have a fuller understanding of what's driving them where they're at what's going on in
their situation.
Well this is an oxymoron but what you're talking about is objective empathy and empathy that
doesn't get dressed and walk around it is really just observation at the end of the
(43:01):
day you have to get curious you've got to be courageous you've got to step in constantly
and I said you're getting dressed and walking around because that's how I like to think
about leadership styles what outfit am I wearing and empathy without the decision to walk around
(43:21):
is honestly kind of cold because it doesn't go beyond the I see and understand.
This is another place where I see a natural connection to another question that I shared
with you Paul I'm curious to know what you see as some of the greatest challenges that
(43:46):
are facing leaders today.
I think one thing that I see is finding the courage in yourself to speak up to say what
you're thinking in difficult situations they might be criticized they might be put down
(44:11):
their career might be affected you know so they hesitate they don't say what they're
thinking so finding the courage to articulate what you're thinking in those difficult situations
is a big challenge.
Can you give us an example please?
(44:33):
Well as I say in the business world let's say you're in a meeting with your boss and
you think your boss's strategy is not appropriate or not right or it's not going to work do
you say anything or do you sit there with your hands folded and just keep nodding you
know are you a yes person?
(44:54):
Speaking up is courageous or takes courage and it also can be dangerous you know you
speaking up challenging the boss could jeopardize your career it could make you look be part
of the outside group from then on you know that type of thing.
(45:14):
So finding courage to speak up I think is important.
I think another challenge is this idea of dealing with constant change.
I've talked to a number of leaders that you know they've been through one wave of change
activity after another and they're kind of exhausted and it's like they're saying I
(45:38):
just want things to go back to normal you know.
Okay what does normal mean?
Change keeps coming at us you know it just is one wave after another so getting used
to and getting comfortable with dealing with that level of change can be challenging or
(46:00):
is challenging so I think those are some of the things I see.
Yeah I think that those are kind of like the directing discussing and delegating those
are a lot of the complex challenges boiled down into three broad buckets if you will.
(46:24):
So I think leadership style is essentially an assembly of behaviors consistently and
active behaviors.
So what leadership behaviors do you think will help people navigate finding the courage
to speak up finding common ground dealing with constant change?
(46:50):
I think the more comfortable and aware you get of your core beliefs and values and why
you're important and why you feel so strongly about those and why you think those matter
to you and to others I think that type of thinking can give you the courage to articulate
(47:18):
your thoughts.
Also if you put the focus on not yourself but helping the team or organization so you
know if I think my boss's strategy is wrong or it's not going to work for the team or
the organization I care about the team I care about the organization I am going to speak
(47:43):
up because it's not about me it's about the team and organization so looking at it that
way helps me find the courage to say well wait a minute boss I think you're missing
something here and I really feel this way and blah blah blah.
So I think that kind of helps you reframe it that don't focus on yourself focus on
(48:05):
what's best for the team and the company that will be you know a winner for you to define
the courage and take action.
I like the connecting things to values actually the newsletter that I publish on LinkedIn
(48:27):
today's article the one here on December 10th when we're recording is about facing fear
and one of the ways to face those fears to have courage and feel the fear and do it anyway
is to connect things your actions to your values that's something that you know this
(48:48):
article kind of sussed out and you know it can even be in the how am I helping people
asking yourself that question because it can even be I respect and care about the leader
so I'm going to say you know hey Mr. Smith or Mrs. Taylor this is really hard for me
(49:11):
to say but I respect you so I'm going to you know I'm going to say I have concerns because
I don't want you to show up you know I don't want this to fall flat and for you to be left
holding the bag.
I think that's a good point Kate I think how you frame it is very important yeah I think
(49:33):
that's a very good point.
Yeah which gets me thinking about because what I just example was sort of directly out
of the crucial conversations framework of contrasting that when you have to be courageous
when you have to go into those high stakes strong emotions conversations that one really
(49:54):
effective way to make certain people in here and understand you is to be really clear like
I'm not saying this thing let me take away this negative response and let me clarify
what I am saying so I'm not saying that this is a bad idea or that you're wrong I am saying
(50:15):
that I respect you and I have concerns that I wouldn't be I wouldn't be doing my job if
I didn't speak up.
Which this leads to the last question that I will ask are there any resources you would
recommend to people to help them as they are trying on and finding the best fit when it
(50:40):
comes to their leadership style.
Well I did write a book on this and it does it's very inexpensive also it's on Amazon
but it provides not only some more information on the three styles but it gives some examples
of people using the different styles in different situations so I mean there's a lot of practical
(51:07):
applications included in the book but I think you know if anybody thinks about the three
styles and you know analyzes themselves in terms of do they have a preferred style is
the one they use most often what could they do differently if they were wanted to use
(51:31):
one of the styles in a certain situation things like that.
I do see some parents some teachers some athletic coaches that you know use very much one of
the styles most of the time going back to my grandson's hockey.
(51:58):
His coach is a very directing style coach.
He has even said to his assistant coaches I don't want your ideas I just want you to
do what you're told to do.
My grandson again captain of the team he's got lots of ideas and things he's thinking
(52:18):
about how the team could improve and what have you and he wants to present those to
his coach but as I say his coach is very directing and you know not open to that style which
is unfortunate because everyone's got some ideas worth considering and when you engage
(52:43):
people in that way it increases their motivation and their commitment to the team and things
like that.
So I guess I'm saying get my book read it there's some good examples in there but even
if you don't get it you know try some different styles see how it works for you test it out
(53:03):
you know experiment as a leader you got to experiment try some new things and see you
know sometimes we're afraid to delegate a project because it's like oh my god they'll
screw it up they won't do it right they won't do it the way I would do it.
So give them a chance you know try it see what see what happens you know it's not going
(53:25):
to you know it's not life or death most of these things so give them a shot.
Well that goes back to the right thing the right amount at the right time.
Yeah correct like right right.
You're not going to delegate right something that's going to sink the ship.
Yeah exactly to somebody that's never done it before that could end in death and destruction.
(53:48):
But if it's low risk and the worst thing that could happen is we learn a lesson and maybe
we've wasted a little bit of time delegate away you know just like I think about my stepson
was this is years and years ago he was trying to like make his lunch you were trying to
(54:11):
teach him a little bit of independence and he was making a horrible mess with the bread
and the condiments and my husband was like I'll just do it like you gotta you gotta let
him make the mess.
Right right.
We don't want to be baking his sandwiches for him when he's in his 20s.
(54:32):
We can clean this up we can teach him to clean it up in fact and it was it was out of care
for him and it was out of concern for keeping our home you know tidy but it's no sometimes
you gotta let people make a mess.
I agree.
Learn how to do it and then learn how to clean it up.
(54:53):
Right.
Yeah.
They'll never they'll never learn if they don't make the mess a few times and figure
out what they're doing and what they need to change to not make the mess.
So yeah I agree.
Yeah I want to add so I talked about crucial conversations that's something that I'll link.
There are two tools that I think can be really helpful for people as they're trying to develop
(55:19):
the awareness that they need and build their vocabularies if you will around styles and
behaviors.
I think the disk assessment can be really effective for people.
For one thing its whole model is based on the concept of styles behaviors and that can
give you insight into well here's what's natural to me and here's where so I may need to put
(55:43):
more effort into delegating because I have naturally you know a style that could be maybe
a little bit more controlling.
I also think the CliftonStrengths is a great resource not only because it gives you self
awareness and insight but they've built out a model for strengths based leadership as
(56:07):
well so you're leading from your strengths and you're looking for other people's strengths
as well to be able to lead them best to allow them to do things well.
And that helps you decide you know in the moment or over time what style is necessary
right here.
(56:27):
So I think those are two or three resources for people that in addition to your book I
will have links in the show notes for.
Okay.
Excellent.
Well Paul I think we are starting to get to a natural end so I'm really curious what final
thoughts you would have to share with us.
(56:50):
Well I was thinking about what Professor Hersey would tell us in class numerous times and
his message to us as students was there is no one best style of leadership.
Use a style that fits the needs of the situation.
(57:13):
That was his mantra.
We heard it numerous times and I have come to believe he was 100 percent correct.
There is no one best style.
You got to use a style that's going to help the person achieve and grow and develop and
(57:34):
it varies.
It's like raising children.
You know early in life we use more of a directing style.
As they get a little bit older we start discussing what do you think?
What about this?
What would you do in this situation?
And then by the time they're you know seniors in high school hopefully we're doing more
direct delegating letting them decide and giving them responsibility to take ownership.
(58:03):
And then of course when they go off to college they're on their own.
You know they have to decide and they have to problem solve and they have to make decisions
and all that.
So it kind of fits the parenting stages if you will to some extent.
I mean we use these three styles all the time but in general we might use one style more
(58:26):
when the kids are young.
For the three year old child you're not having you know delegating too much to them right?
No it's exactly right.
Anyway that's my final thought I guess.
You know I always get a little squirrely when talking about parenting as a metaphor for
(58:47):
leading because employees or the people that you're leading are with a few exceptions not
children.
Yeah right.
In the workplace your employees are not children and that mental model of helping people grow
and mature into contributing healthy well citizens it stands the test of time.
(59:17):
So if you you know for people that are parents or who are around kids and can kind of think
about all right my little child needed to be told exactly how to go to bed.
I couldn't just say go to bed.
I have to be as clear and kind with my newest employees with the people that don't have
(59:38):
the experience and then can I help them grow and mature to a point where I can metaphorically
send them off to college and not be concerned that they're going to make huge huge mistakes.
So again always a little hesitant employees are not children and if we think about leadership
(59:59):
as a way of supporting people in their growth and maturing so that they can be their best
most effective selves that helps you make those decisions.
I've been talking about that's wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Circling back to this idea of what challenges are facing us right now it's also the courage
(01:00:23):
to decide whether or not I should be in leadership.
It looks really appealing from the outside and anybody that's done the job will tell
you that it is super hard particularly in those frontline middle management roles.
There are a few jobs harder and getting the right people in leadership is one of our challenges
(01:00:49):
right now.
Because we've had many years many and many years even before our lifetimes of not the
right people leading where we needed the right people.
On that lovely note here's the thing though I believe I really do believe that we are
(01:01:18):
for more reasons than we could take the time to list right now.
I think we are at such an exciting inflection point in the world of work of being able to
make things better to help leaders more to create better experiences for employees and
for people to find more fulfillment on the job.
(01:01:40):
So even if there is this kind of storied past of us not doing the best as a workplace I
think there's a lot of opportunity facing us in the coming years.
Yeah and I also think I don't want to sound all negative I think there's a lot of really
effective and successful leaders and managers that are getting it done are adding value
(01:02:06):
building great teams you know bringing out the best in people engaging them delegating
tasks left and right you know.
I think there's a lot of good things going on as you're saying as well.
It's unfortunate that the bad apple stands out and that's the one that a lot of stories
(01:02:26):
are told about and what have you but there's a lot a lot of good people who are doing absolutely
the best they can.
And I used to tell my students that you know there's no perfect managers or leaders just
like there's no perfect employees you know everyone's got strengths and weaknesses everyone's
trying to do the best they can.
(01:02:49):
Some people are more open to feedback and coaching than others and you know it varies
so anyway.
I am reminded and I can't think of a better place to to kind of close of Mr. Rogers talking
about you know look for the helpers.
Where you see helpers you see leaders.
Yeah.
(01:03:09):
Servant servant leader idea.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well thank you so much.
Thank you for having me on.
It has been an absolute pleasure.
I've really enjoyed our conversation and I'm looking forward to finishing leadership styles
myself because I do have it on my Kindle now.
All right great.
(01:03:30):
I hope you enjoy it and give me feedback after you read it and leadership is a great topic
and I love talking about it so maybe we can do it again down the road sometime in 25.
That'd be fabulous sir.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:03:55):
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs.
If you're enjoying this podcast don't forget to subscribe and share it with others who
are passionate about leading and learning and don't forget if you have a question for
our new comfy HQ series I'd love to hear it.
Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation
(01:04:18):
until next time.
Welcome back to the comfy chairs, a podcast from 123 limited.
(00:08):
This is your host, Kate.
I've referenced several traditional leadership theories during the course of this podcast.
These include the great man theory, transformational leadership, and situational leadership, just
to name a few.
These theories are an effort to describe and classify why certain people become leaders.
(00:30):
Is it a trait or set of characteristics?
Is it a specific mindset or a chain of events?
By naming the why, these theories hope to point the way to great leadership.
Today I want to scratch below the theories and look at styles.
Rather than occupy ourselves with the why, this conversation will focus on how.
(00:55):
What are some of the ways leadership shows up and what behaviors distinguish certain
styles?
I particularly enjoy the play on words that leadership style offers, because it's very
like choosing an outfit.
What style will you wear when you walk out into the world to lead?
While the frameworks built by various theories and the styles connected with each are very
(01:20):
closely related, my intent today is to help you get clear on what style your leadership
is wearing, how people see and experience you as a leader.
I'm fortunate to have Paul Thornton as my guest today, because Paul literally wrote
the book on this topic, Leadership Styles, Directing, Discussing, Delegating.
(01:45):
In addition to this title, he has published more than a dozen other books focusing on
leadership skills and success.
His mission is to help parents, teachers, coaches, and team leaders become more effective
managers and leaders.
And I can't think of a better guest to join me for today's conversation.
(02:09):
Welcome to the comfy chairs, Paul.
I'm really glad to have you with me this morning and would love to give you a chance to introduce
yourself, please.
Well first of all, Kate, thank you for having me on.
I've been a student and teacher of leadership for the past 30, 40 years.
(02:29):
I love the subject.
I think there's a lot to learn about it.
There's a lot of different theories and models and concepts.
I've been a leader in various situations.
I've done coaching of people to help them become better leaders.
I've written a lot of books on the subject.
(02:50):
So I think I have a lot of the theory and concepts to it.
And I've actually done some leading.
So I think I have practical, you know, real world experience doing it, you know.
So that's an important point.
Yeah.
There's theory and practice and that's kind of, that's actually kind of the whole intent
(03:11):
of today's conversation is to say, yes, theories are important because it helps us figure out
how practice can happen.
But really at the end of the day, how you show up, how you behave, how you lead is kind
of the thing that actually matters regardless of whatever theory you espouse.
(03:36):
And there are some things where I think theory is sufficient.
But when it comes to people leadership, you need to have that experience.
I think the best place for us to start is what are the indicators of great leadership?
If we're going to talk about leading better, what does that actually look like?
(03:59):
Love to hear your thoughts.
Well, good question.
I think that, you know, leaders, when I first of all, when I think about leaders, thinking
about could be a parent, teacher, athletic coach, team leader, manager, you know, so
it's a wide spectrum of people that can take on this leadership role.
(04:23):
But when I think some of the some of the really good leaders or great leaders, kind of three
things come to mind.
Number one, they of course set a good example.
They have strong alignment with what they say and do.
You know, they have credibility.
Number two, they're able to diagnose the situation they're in.
(04:48):
They're good at, as they say, reading the room.
You know, they can figure out what's going on.
What's the biggest problem or issue?
And then thirdly, they provide the right amount of what's needed.
Think about like coaching or giving feedback or delegating.
(05:10):
You know, you can do too much of it or you can do too little.
And providing the right amount is going to help the person maximize their effectiveness.
Too much information, too much feedback is really not helpful.
(05:30):
I play tennis and I have a I've had various tennis coaches over the years.
And on occasion, the tennis coach will tell me, you know, eight things to remember in
my head is spinning.
You know, you've heard that example before.
Yeah, there's so much going on in your head that you forget to even, you know, hit the
(05:51):
ball, you know.
So again, providing the right amount of feedback, the right amount of coaching, the right amount
of direction is going to be most helpful.
So the really great leaders, I think, know the sweet spot of what's appropriate.
Now, I'm not saying you always are in the middle of, you know, the spectrum.
(06:15):
Sometimes you need to provide a lot of feedback.
Sometimes you need to provide very little.
Sometimes coaching might take a minute and other times it might take 30 minutes, you
know, so it varies.
So I think those are three things that come to mind that, you know, highlight some of
the really, really effective leaders.
(06:35):
Yeah, I heard you talk about credibility right off the bat.
Yeah.
Setting an example, being consistent and that reading the room, the diagnosing the situation
and doing the thing that's appropriate to it.
I would shorthand that as discernment.
(06:59):
I think I would add awareness and I also see that that somewhat rolled up into credibility
and discernment too.
I like to call it out that there's that awareness of me, awareness of others and awareness of
circumstances too.
Yeah, I would agree.
I think the leader certainly needs to be self-aware.
(07:23):
You know, you need to be aware of what you stand for, your beliefs, your values.
That's really important.
Aware of the situation you're in, what's going on, looking at the hard data, the numbers,
tell you a story, looking at what people are feeling.
(07:43):
You know, that's also important.
Yeah.
They say leaders have to connect with people's hearts and minds and to connect with their
hearts, you got to understand what are they feeling, you know, what's their emotions at
the moment.
You know, that's all important as well.
Yeah.
I always like to add, I think hearts and hands or sorry, hearts and minds or the head in
(08:09):
the heart are great touchstones for us to talk about in leadership.
And I always like to add hands that we're really trying to get that whole self involved.
I agree.
What people think, what they feel and what they do.
(08:29):
And while we can't dictate thought or feeling, we want to be aware of it.
And those are the best leaders that recognize that they have to take that into account if
the hands are going to do the necessary work.
I'm jumping around a little bit because you mentioned this right off the bat and I want
(08:52):
to call out how much I appreciate that you recognize that leadership is not limited to
a title or even the business setting.
Because that's something that because so much of my preoccupation is with people managers
as a consultant, even in the form of this podcast, that's not the only place you see
(09:16):
leadership though.
So I'd like to take just a little bit of time to chew over the idea of why is it important
for us to talk about leadership and other venues?
Well I think it's important because everyone, as we talked about before, has the opportunity
(09:38):
to step up and make a difference and add value.
For example, my 12 year old grandson a couple weeks back, one of his classmates was bullying
another classmate.
And he observed this and knew what was wrong and he went over and confronted the bully
(10:04):
and said what you're doing to Jason isn't right.
You know it's hurtful and he's a good guy and you shouldn't be saying what you're saying.
You need to go and apologize to him.
And you know to me that I was so proud of my grandson and here's an example of a 12
(10:24):
year old child stepping up and making a difference and adding value and influencing the person,
the bully to realize what they were doing was wrong.
And I think the bully was doing it to get attention and all that.
So to your point, from a 12 year old up to a 90 year old, there's plenty of opportunities
(10:52):
to speak up, say something, do something that's going to help the person or the situation
improve or be more effective or align more with your values, that type of thing.
So there's all sorts of opportunities.
(11:12):
No, you don't need the title of your leader.
No, anyone if they're willing.
If they're willing.
Now being a leader, you have to bring up difficult topics, you have to give some candid feedback,
you have to confront difficult people like this bully as I mentioned.
(11:33):
It's not always easy.
It's not always fun and games.
It's difficult.
And a lot of people would rather not have the conflict or you know, get into the issue
with the person.
And so they say nothing and do nothing and you know, life goes on.
So I agree with you though.
There's plenty of opportunities for all of us to take on this quote leadership role.
(11:59):
I had the chance recently I met a young woman who is a high school teacher by training and
has moved into a role where she is now kind of supporting and leading fundraising programs
for high school students.
Yeah, connected to a nonprofit.
(12:21):
She's coordinating the work that they do and her focus is not on I mean, obviously the
fundraising is important.
The mission of this particular organization is really important to her.
But her focus is on developing leadership skills and those students.
I'm hoping to have her on the podcast in the spring as well.
(12:42):
But we had this really wonderful conversation about that she is working this long game that
what she's doing is creating that next generation of people that are able to have courage, to
have influence, to build credibility, all of those pieces.
(13:04):
And it's one I think it's wildly important work.
But also that clarity of understanding that you don't have to have a team of employees
that you can lead from every place.
It is so important.
And I see it translate over into the workplace too.
(13:25):
That yes, you can have a manager title, but you can also have people leading from the
desk.
I come from healthcare.
That's something I talk about a lot because it's what I know so well.
And in the field of nursing, there's a concept of the bedside leader that even at the bedside
(13:49):
that direct caregiver has leadership responsibility.
And that's something that I really latched onto because I think we should infuse that
across not just the healthcare industry, but everywhere.
Bedside, deskside, register side that we can and should be leading.
(14:10):
You talked about choice, your grandson.
And by the way, what a great thing to be proud of him standing up to a bully.
I hope the whole family is celebrating him.
We celebrate him all the time.
And I have five grandsons and other grandsons have done something similar.
(14:31):
So I'm proud of all of them.
This particular one plays ice hockey and he was just elected captain of his team.
He's a team builder, but he's also willing to talk to people when they're not following
team rules or things like that.
And he's had several examples again on the role of captain of his team of speaking up
(14:57):
and saying, hey, so and so, we agreed we were going to do X, Y, Z and you're not doing it.
So again, I'm blown away by some of these things that my daughter tells me about and
then my grandson fills in the details.
So yeah, very proud.
Well, something that you mentioned in that account of his leadership was the choice.
(15:23):
He chose to stand up.
He chose to try to influence a peer.
And I like talking about choice in this context, frankly, for no other reason than it sort
of flies in the face of the great man theory.
And while I know that we're focused on style and practice over theory, I do think it's
(15:47):
important to say that some of those theories are fundamentally flawed and we want to avoid
some of the styles associated with them.
I particularly like any time I can ship away at the great man theory while it's been broadly
debunked.
I do think there are some people that are like, this was somebody who was born to lead.
(16:12):
You know, no, no, you have to, you have to make choices along the way.
It is not something that you have no decision making ability in.
And that's one of the reasons choice is one of the reasons I think style is an important
conversation for us because people do choose to lead.
(16:32):
You may have some abilities and traits that make it easier for you than for other people
like your grandson.
You mentioned the term natural leadership abilities, but he is choosing how he administers
those if you will.
And that choice is where style comes into play in your book, leadership styles.
(16:57):
You outline three particular styles and I will confess I've only read the introduction
to the book.
I haven't gotten all the way through it yet, but I like how you start off with, you know,
here are, here's a big long list of just some of the styles that are referenced out in the
world and how you, you take a stance to simplify it and say really fundamentally there are
(17:25):
three styles directing, discussing and delegating.
I'd like to have you walk us through what those are in their most essential form, please.
Sure.
I like to boil things down to make them as simple as possible, practical and usable.
So you're right.
(17:46):
Three styles directing, you tell the person what to do, how to do it, when to have it
done by.
If a person has no experience, they've never done the task before, they want and need direction.
They want and need a roadmap of steps they need to take to get the job done.
(18:10):
When you use a directing style, the person is learning to pay attention, to listen, to
ask questions, to then go and do what they need to do to get it done and meet the deadline.
And I think those are all very important skills that, you know, people need to learn.
(18:33):
Now one of the problems with the directing style is sometimes people use the style when
the person knows what to do.
So it's like micromanaging, you know, the person's done it 28 times, you don't have
to be telling them one more time what they need to do, they know.
So don't use it inappropriately, use it when there's a need.
(18:58):
You also might want to use the directing style in a crisis or an emergency situation.
You know, if the house is burning down, you want someone to very quickly make decisions,
give directions, you know, tell people what to do.
The second style, discussing, basically like you're doing today, you're asking questions.
(19:22):
The leader asks questions to see what the person thinks about certain problems and opportunities,
how they would proceed, you know, what steps they would take if they were going to take
on this project.
When you use a discussing style, the person learns to think because you're asking them
(19:46):
questions so they got to think of an answer.
They're learning to collaborate if you're in a group setting, build on the ideas of
others.
They're also learning when it's time to make a decision.
You know, discussion is good, but at some point you got to make a decision.
(20:06):
Matter of fact, that's one of the problems with the discussing style.
You know, you and I have all seen some managers that go on and on and on and on, some meetings,
and nothing is decided.
You know, that's not productive.
So at some point a decision needs to be made.
And then the third style is delegating where you are giving the person responsibility and
(20:34):
authority to on their own do whatever they think they need to do to get the task done,
right?
You're empowering them.
That's appropriate, of course, when the person has some experience and some know-how.
It's also used maybe as a developmental tool.
You want to challenge the person with a project and see how they're going to do.
(20:58):
When you use that style, people learn to work independently, you know, on their own.
They need to set goals and develop a plan and engage other people and get the resources
they need and do whatever is needed to hit the deadline that was agreed upon up front.
(21:19):
Now again, you know, you can misuse this style.
A lot of people overdelegate to their top performers.
You know, they know their one or two superstars will always get the job done in a great way.
So they keep delegating to them and they burn them out.
And that's not good.
(21:40):
You want to make sure you're delegating appropriately and giving everyone the chance to see, you
know, what they can do on their own and how they can develop and what have you.
So I think I mentioned it, but when you use a delegating style, people are learning some
very important skills also to plan and make decisions and think through options and go
(22:04):
to certain people for advice and guidance if need be.
So again, those are all important skills.
So my point is, you know, you want to, as a leader, you want to help people succeed.
So you want to use a style that's going to help them.
And depending on their background and the task that they're assigned to do, you're going
(22:30):
to decide what style makes sense.
And as a leader, also you need to be flexible and adjust as needed.
I might start out using a directing style, but realize, well, this person, you know,
they're very competent and capable and, you know, move to a discussion and ask some questions.
How would you do this or that?
What do you think here?
(22:50):
And then even move to delegation.
So you need to be flexible and use the style that's going to help the person get the job
done.
And as I have implied, I think that when you use the right style, secondarily, it's helping
the person develop the skills they need for ongoing future success.
(23:13):
So that's a side benefit, I guess you will.
So those are kind of the three styles in a nutshell.
But I think we use them all the time, parents, teachers, coaches, you know, it's something
we do.
Matter of fact, when I was a manager and leader in the same meeting, you know, I'd be using
(23:35):
all three styles and times I'd be directing other times would be discussing a topic.
Other times I'd be delegating to this one or that one to take on this project and get
it done by this date, you know.
So every day I would use all three styles.
And like I say, in some meetings, I would use all three styles.
(23:55):
So yeah, I guess in a nutshell, those are the three styles.
I love it.
Now I would be three D's.
Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't mention situational leadership.
Is it something that some people listening may be familiar with?
And I know that you have had the opportunity to do some study with Dr. Hersey.
(24:17):
You're very familiar with Dr. Blanchard as well.
I like this take or evolution, if you will, of the situational leadership framework or
theory because it is so simplified.
Yeah.
I think it gives a much it's more intuitive.
(24:39):
Yeah.
I was fortunate, Kate, in college to have both Professor Hersey and Professor Blanchard
as my instructors.
And Professor Hersey, incidentally, was a phenomenal teacher.
(24:59):
And he taught his class using the four styles that are described in the situational leadership
model.
Beginning of the semester, he was very directing.
Then he got into quadrant two, quadrant three, we had more discussions.
And then the last two to three weeks of the semester, he delegated.
(25:22):
We had to go out and do different things, interview people, you know, analyze case studies
and what have you.
But great teacher.
I always thought that I was a little bit confused when he presented it between quadrants two
and three.
I think quadrant two was selling and quadrant three was participating.
(25:44):
And as I got into the business world and started working and observing and reflecting on, you
know, what I was doing as a manager or leader, it made sense for me to boil it down to the
three basic styles.
So that was kind of my evolution of moving from there four to my three.
(26:07):
Simplicity for me is very, very, very important.
You are singing my song, sir.
The complexity of leadership should not come from how you do it.
The people make things complex enough.
Yeah, right.
I also really appreciate it just personally, it very much resonates with me how you struggled
(26:33):
a little bit with that whole idea of selling.
I've had a bur in my saddle for a while about the idea of leaders trying to persuade or
convince employees to do or not do something.
And, you know, I'm not saying that leaders must be dictatorial.
(26:58):
Leadership isn't an act of salesmanship.
It's not an act of convincing that, yes, influence does play a role, but the leader's job is
to be very clear about this is what's expected of you.
And if you do it, here's the natural positive consequence.
And if you don't, here is the natural negative consequence that will follow.
(27:22):
And then being consistent about that and adapting to the people's needs.
Yes, but you're not there to try to like, weedle and convince and persuade people.
You just have to be clear.
This is where we're going.
This is what we're doing.
These are the mindsets that can help you be successful, but I'm not going to tell you
(27:46):
how to think.
These are the behaviors that are needed because they are directly connected to the results
we're trying to achieve, not because I said so.
And this is the by when.
And even if you are delegating, there has to be this thread of clarity that runs through.
(28:09):
So I think it's when you talk about directing, because maybe it's high stakes or high risk
or it's somebody's first day on the job, you are spelling all of that out.
They have no point of reference.
They're learning it.
As they become more familiar, as trust is built between you and them, they trust like,
(28:33):
Paul is going to tell me exactly what I need to know and give me feedback and give me an
attaboy if I need it.
Or Paul is going to be fair and just if I make a mistake.
Then as you go through discussion and into delegation, you still have to pull forward
(28:57):
this.
Hey, this is what the expected behavior and outcomes are.
You may not have to get into as much detail.
You may not have to spend as much time, but you're not there trying to sell to people.
And I, I, I agree with you.
(29:19):
Leadership is a fabulous theory and in practice, the persuading component, the, I have to convince
people I've struggled with that in, in the real world as well.
Particularly when I've seen leaders use it as an excuse for not getting the results that
(29:42):
are needed.
Yeah.
Well, I would add to that, Kate, that leaders are involved in selling and implementing change.
You know, they want to change the status quo.
They want to make things better.
(30:03):
And we talked earlier about the idea that the leader can influence and appeal to people's
head, heart and hands.
And if I'm trying to implement a major change initiative, I want to get buy-in of my employees.
So I got to think about what's going to be most appealing to them.
(30:27):
If I present a logical argument with facts and figures, is that going to sell them?
Or do I try to connect to their emotions?
Do I try to tell a story or relate to how they'll feel once this change is implemented?
Or do I appeal to their hands?
Do I ask them to try something for two weeks and then tell me what they thought, how it
(30:52):
worked, what are the benefits, what do they see?
You know, so how am I going to do that?
Now depending on the situation, I am going to engage in a certain amount of selling and
trying to influence them to buy into the change that I'm advocating and want to put in place.
(31:19):
But realistically, there are times when I'm not going to have the opportunity to sell
them and convince them.
Career management has said this change is going to be effective January 1st and you
need to do X, Y, Z to make it happen.
And it's much more of a directing style that all of us need to do or use this new technology
(31:42):
going forward.
You're going to receive a week of training and blah, blah, blah.
It's a change that's being put in place and we all have to get on board and move forward.
Other times if I'm not quite sure on exactly what the change is going to be, I might have
a discussion with my team or department on what do they think and what are the pluses
(32:03):
and minuses and get their input and thank them for it and then tell them once I'm going
to factor their thoughts in and decide what is the best way to go.
So again, it's very situational I think, but you got to look at a lot of different factors
(32:24):
and diagnose what will make the most sense, what's going to help improve the situation
and make things better.
So I want to be careful that I don't do one of two or both of two things.
I don't want to get us off track and I don't want to drag us into a debate, but this is
(32:50):
something I frankly I feel very strongly about because interestingly enough, the whole convincing
question is something that I landed where I am on that during change leadership situations.
Being in those circumstances of consulting and coaching executive leaders about how they
(33:15):
were doing the work of leading change and there seemed to be this sense of, well I just
can't convince them.
I do not believe that change leadership is an act of selling.
It's not about creating buy-in, it's about increasing and ensuring understanding and
(33:38):
the messages that we craft for people need to appeal in the right measure to the head
or heart as we try to engage them in the change.
But if a change has been decided upon, whether it's externally like a change in the law or
(33:58):
there's a business need that is driving it, it does nobody any good to spend time in trying
to make people quote unquote feel good about it.
Now this is not to say that you don't have empathy for people's resistance or struggles
(34:19):
with change.
All of this has to be done with kindness.
And one of the roles of a leader during change is not to convince but to increase understanding.
You want to make certain people understand what the change means for them and what's
expected of them before, during and after.
(34:42):
And if people are not able to become congruent with whatever that change expects of them,
you have other difficult decisions and conversations that you have to address.
I think sometimes leaders don't explain the why the change is being made.
(35:02):
I think if you get into the why that people accept it more and again buy in understanding,
your word understanding is more accepted by the person.
Okay I see what they're doing, why they're doing it and okay I'll get on board.
(35:23):
I think you can overlay the styles with the nature of the change and where people are
in that path to understanding, path to comprehension.
Definitely that you know initially as they're kind of working through it and trying to understand
(35:45):
depending on the nature of the change, you may be at one end of the spectrum or the other.
You may have to be more directing.
I'm telling you the what, why, how, when or if it's a long-term change, the stakes aren't
very high, there could be more of that discussion and delegation of hey go out and experiment
(36:05):
with this and come back and tell me what it's like.
So you know I said I didn't want to totally pull us down a path here but I really love
that we've ended up on change because that's one of the places where your style as a
leader is so important and your flexibility and adaptability.
(36:29):
I'd like to use this chance to go to one of the questions that I shared with you because
I see a natural connection here and that's what characteristics and skills can support
someone wanting to enter or improve their leadership.
Curiosity I think is one of the skills that is important in this context.
(36:55):
What else would you add?
I think I was thinking about that and I think curiosity is really important.
Being you know curious why people think and feel a certain way, probing and digging, understanding
(37:17):
the why behind the behavior, that's very important.
I mentioned earlier I think a very important skill I think that's overlooked is the ability
to diagnose situations.
You know it's no different than a good doctor is able to diagnose the patient effectively
(37:38):
and successfully.
A good leader is able to diagnose the environment that they're in and get a clear picture and
clear understanding of what's going on and why it's going on and what are some steps
they can take to as I said before improve it or make things better.
(38:03):
To your point certainly adaptability these days there's so much coming at us, there's
so much change happening in the world.
You need to be adaptable and flexible and be willing to say well this isn't working
I need to try something else.
(38:25):
I need to alter this or tweak this to be more effective.
Being open to feedback and being humble that my way is not always right and I need to be
open and keep learning and growing myself and make changes as needed to be again more
(38:47):
effective that's my goal, my ultimate goal.
So I think those are some skills or characteristics that leaders need to work on and keep working
on.
This leadership thing as you know Kate is a lifelong journey that we're always trying
to learn and gain new understanding and new insights and you know never ending.
(39:13):
I'm so glad you brought up curiosity not only because an episode just a few before this
one airs addresses curiosity and joy and the connection they have but curiosity is so beneficial
for so many aspects of life and super beneficial for leadership.
(39:38):
Everything that you've talked about like leading by example you have to be curious about what
is it that people see as a method of role modeling.
Can I get curious about that?
Diagnosis, diagnosis cannot happen without at least asking yourself questions and then
(39:58):
providing the right amount of what's needed.
If you're not curious about what is the right thing and the right amount you will always
miss the mark on that because I have a framework that I'm kind of constantly working and refining
in the back of my mind and curiosity sits in an important place in it.
(40:23):
I want to call out empathy as well that empathy I think is where leadership and learning where
they start and in our discussions that could probably be subbed out for the concept of
awareness whether it's self or other empathy has this part to play in can I sense the feelings
(40:53):
the interactions the dynamics can I imagine what this is like for someone else.
That then foments curiosity in us.
If I'm picturing if I'm experiencing your feelings I have an opportunity to become curious
about who you are what got you there and then that curiosity can give me courage to ask
(41:21):
the hard questions to do the thing that's necessary to stand up to the bully and when
I do the thing I start to develop muscle I start to develop endurance because leading
is hard work people have to be flexible adaptable and resilient and I think that can be somewhat
(41:49):
captured in the concept of endurance.
I think some leaders they're empathetic and they get a clear understanding of how people
are feeling but they don't go to the next question of the curiosity of why they're feeling
that way you know how long have they been feeling that way what are the drivers what
(42:13):
are the key factors what would they like to see happen you know what I mean they do they
kind of stop at one level where if they probe a little bit further they'd have a deeper
richer understanding of that person and then they can help the person more because they
(42:34):
have a fuller understanding of what's driving them where they're at what's going on in
their situation.
Well this is an oxymoron but what you're talking about is objective empathy and empathy that
doesn't get dressed and walk around it is really just observation at the end of the
(43:01):
day you have to get curious you've got to be courageous you've got to step in constantly
and I said you're getting dressed and walking around because that's how I like to think
about leadership styles what outfit am I wearing and empathy without the decision to walk around
(43:21):
is honestly kind of cold because it doesn't go beyond the I see and understand.
This is another place where I see a natural connection to another question that I shared
with you Paul I'm curious to know what you see as some of the greatest challenges that
(43:46):
are facing leaders today.
I think one thing that I see is finding the courage in yourself to speak up to say what
you're thinking in difficult situations they might be criticized they might be put down
(44:11):
their career might be affected you know so they hesitate they don't say what they're
thinking so finding the courage to articulate what you're thinking in those difficult situations
is a big challenge.
Can you give us an example please?
(44:33):
Well as I say in the business world let's say you're in a meeting with your boss and
you think your boss's strategy is not appropriate or not right or it's not going to work do
you say anything or do you sit there with your hands folded and just keep nodding you
know are you a yes person?
(44:54):
Speaking up is courageous or takes courage and it also can be dangerous you know you
speaking up challenging the boss could jeopardize your career it could make you look be part
of the outside group from then on you know that type of thing.
(45:14):
So finding courage to speak up I think is important.
I think another challenge is this idea of dealing with constant change.
I've talked to a number of leaders that you know they've been through one wave of change
activity after another and they're kind of exhausted and it's like they're saying I
(45:38):
just want things to go back to normal you know.
Okay what does normal mean?
Change keeps coming at us you know it just is one wave after another so getting used
to and getting comfortable with dealing with that level of change can be challenging or
(46:00):
is challenging so I think those are some of the things I see.
Yeah I think that those are kind of like the directing discussing and delegating those
are a lot of the complex challenges boiled down into three broad buckets if you will.
(46:24):
So I think leadership style is essentially an assembly of behaviors consistently and
active behaviors.
So what leadership behaviors do you think will help people navigate finding the courage
to speak up finding common ground dealing with constant change?
(46:50):
I think the more comfortable and aware you get of your core beliefs and values and why
you're important and why you feel so strongly about those and why you think those matter
to you and to others I think that type of thinking can give you the courage to articulate
(47:18):
your thoughts.
Also if you put the focus on not yourself but helping the team or organization so you
know if I think my boss's strategy is wrong or it's not going to work for the team or
the organization I care about the team I care about the organization I am going to speak
(47:43):
up because it's not about me it's about the team and organization so looking at it that
way helps me find the courage to say well wait a minute boss I think you're missing
something here and I really feel this way and blah blah blah.
So I think that kind of helps you reframe it that don't focus on yourself focus on
(48:05):
what's best for the team and the company that will be you know a winner for you to define
the courage and take action.
I like the connecting things to values actually the newsletter that I publish on LinkedIn
(48:27):
today's article the one here on December 10th when we're recording is about facing fear
and one of the ways to face those fears to have courage and feel the fear and do it anyway
is to connect things your actions to your values that's something that you know this
(48:48):
article kind of sussed out and you know it can even be in the how am I helping people
asking yourself that question because it can even be I respect and care about the leader
so I'm going to say you know hey Mr. Smith or Mrs. Taylor this is really hard for me
(49:11):
to say but I respect you so I'm going to you know I'm going to say I have concerns because
I don't want you to show up you know I don't want this to fall flat and for you to be left
holding the bag.
I think that's a good point Kate I think how you frame it is very important yeah I think
(49:33):
that's a very good point.
Yeah which gets me thinking about because what I just example was sort of directly out
of the crucial conversations framework of contrasting that when you have to be courageous
when you have to go into those high stakes strong emotions conversations that one really
(49:54):
effective way to make certain people in here and understand you is to be really clear like
I'm not saying this thing let me take away this negative response and let me clarify
what I am saying so I'm not saying that this is a bad idea or that you're wrong I am saying
(50:15):
that I respect you and I have concerns that I wouldn't be I wouldn't be doing my job if
I didn't speak up.
Which this leads to the last question that I will ask are there any resources you would
recommend to people to help them as they are trying on and finding the best fit when it
(50:40):
comes to their leadership style.
Well I did write a book on this and it does it's very inexpensive also it's on Amazon
but it provides not only some more information on the three styles but it gives some examples
of people using the different styles in different situations so I mean there's a lot of practical
(51:07):
applications included in the book but I think you know if anybody thinks about the three
styles and you know analyzes themselves in terms of do they have a preferred style is
the one they use most often what could they do differently if they were wanted to use
(51:31):
one of the styles in a certain situation things like that.
I do see some parents some teachers some athletic coaches that you know use very much one of
the styles most of the time going back to my grandson's hockey.
(51:58):
His coach is a very directing style coach.
He has even said to his assistant coaches I don't want your ideas I just want you to
do what you're told to do.
My grandson again captain of the team he's got lots of ideas and things he's thinking
(52:18):
about how the team could improve and what have you and he wants to present those to
his coach but as I say his coach is very directing and you know not open to that style which
is unfortunate because everyone's got some ideas worth considering and when you engage
(52:43):
people in that way it increases their motivation and their commitment to the team and things
like that.
So I guess I'm saying get my book read it there's some good examples in there but even
if you don't get it you know try some different styles see how it works for you test it out
(53:03):
you know experiment as a leader you got to experiment try some new things and see you
know sometimes we're afraid to delegate a project because it's like oh my god they'll
screw it up they won't do it right they won't do it the way I would do it.
So give them a chance you know try it see what see what happens you know it's not going
(53:25):
to you know it's not life or death most of these things so give them a shot.
Well that goes back to the right thing the right amount at the right time.
Yeah correct like right right.
You're not going to delegate right something that's going to sink the ship.
Yeah exactly to somebody that's never done it before that could end in death and destruction.
(53:48):
But if it's low risk and the worst thing that could happen is we learn a lesson and maybe
we've wasted a little bit of time delegate away you know just like I think about my stepson
was this is years and years ago he was trying to like make his lunch you were trying to
(54:11):
teach him a little bit of independence and he was making a horrible mess with the bread
and the condiments and my husband was like I'll just do it like you gotta you gotta let
him make the mess.
Right right.
We don't want to be baking his sandwiches for him when he's in his 20s.
(54:32):
We can clean this up we can teach him to clean it up in fact and it was it was out of care
for him and it was out of concern for keeping our home you know tidy but it's no sometimes
you gotta let people make a mess.
I agree.
Learn how to do it and then learn how to clean it up.
(54:53):
Right.
Yeah.
They'll never they'll never learn if they don't make the mess a few times and figure
out what they're doing and what they need to change to not make the mess.
So yeah I agree.
Yeah I want to add so I talked about crucial conversations that's something that I'll link.
There are two tools that I think can be really helpful for people as they're trying to develop
(55:19):
the awareness that they need and build their vocabularies if you will around styles and
behaviors.
I think the disk assessment can be really effective for people.
For one thing its whole model is based on the concept of styles behaviors and that can
give you insight into well here's what's natural to me and here's where so I may need to put
(55:43):
more effort into delegating because I have naturally you know a style that could be maybe
a little bit more controlling.
I also think the CliftonStrengths is a great resource not only because it gives you self
awareness and insight but they've built out a model for strengths based leadership as
(56:07):
well so you're leading from your strengths and you're looking for other people's strengths
as well to be able to lead them best to allow them to do things well.
And that helps you decide you know in the moment or over time what style is necessary
right here.
(56:27):
So I think those are two or three resources for people that in addition to your book I
will have links in the show notes for.
Okay.
Excellent.
Well Paul I think we are starting to get to a natural end so I'm really curious what final
thoughts you would have to share with us.
(56:50):
Well I was thinking about what Professor Hersey would tell us in class numerous times and
his message to us as students was there is no one best style of leadership.
Use a style that fits the needs of the situation.
(57:13):
That was his mantra.
We heard it numerous times and I have come to believe he was 100 percent correct.
There is no one best style.
You got to use a style that's going to help the person achieve and grow and develop and
(57:34):
it varies.
It's like raising children.
You know early in life we use more of a directing style.
As they get a little bit older we start discussing what do you think?
What about this?
What would you do in this situation?
And then by the time they're you know seniors in high school hopefully we're doing more
direct delegating letting them decide and giving them responsibility to take ownership.
(58:03):
And then of course when they go off to college they're on their own.
You know they have to decide and they have to problem solve and they have to make decisions
and all that.
So it kind of fits the parenting stages if you will to some extent.
I mean we use these three styles all the time but in general we might use one style more
(58:26):
when the kids are young.
For the three year old child you're not having you know delegating too much to them right?
No it's exactly right.
Anyway that's my final thought I guess.
You know I always get a little squirrely when talking about parenting as a metaphor for
(58:47):
leading because employees or the people that you're leading are with a few exceptions not
children.
Yeah right.
In the workplace your employees are not children and that mental model of helping people grow
and mature into contributing healthy well citizens it stands the test of time.
(59:17):
So if you you know for people that are parents or who are around kids and can kind of think
about all right my little child needed to be told exactly how to go to bed.
I couldn't just say go to bed.
I have to be as clear and kind with my newest employees with the people that don't have
(59:38):
the experience and then can I help them grow and mature to a point where I can metaphorically
send them off to college and not be concerned that they're going to make huge huge mistakes.
So again always a little hesitant employees are not children and if we think about leadership
(59:59):
as a way of supporting people in their growth and maturing so that they can be their best
most effective selves that helps you make those decisions.
I've been talking about that's wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Circling back to this idea of what challenges are facing us right now it's also the courage
(01:00:23):
to decide whether or not I should be in leadership.
It looks really appealing from the outside and anybody that's done the job will tell
you that it is super hard particularly in those frontline middle management roles.
There are a few jobs harder and getting the right people in leadership is one of our challenges
(01:00:49):
right now.
Because we've had many years many and many years even before our lifetimes of not the
right people leading where we needed the right people.
On that lovely note here's the thing though I believe I really do believe that we are
(01:01:18):
for more reasons than we could take the time to list right now.
I think we are at such an exciting inflection point in the world of work of being able to
make things better to help leaders more to create better experiences for employees and
for people to find more fulfillment on the job.
(01:01:40):
So even if there is this kind of storied past of us not doing the best as a workplace I
think there's a lot of opportunity facing us in the coming years.
Yeah and I also think I don't want to sound all negative I think there's a lot of really
effective and successful leaders and managers that are getting it done are adding value
(01:02:06):
building great teams you know bringing out the best in people engaging them delegating
tasks left and right you know.
I think there's a lot of good things going on as you're saying as well.
It's unfortunate that the bad apple stands out and that's the one that a lot of stories
(01:02:26):
are told about and what have you but there's a lot a lot of good people who are doing absolutely
the best they can.
And I used to tell my students that you know there's no perfect managers or leaders just
like there's no perfect employees you know everyone's got strengths and weaknesses everyone's
trying to do the best they can.
(01:02:49):
Some people are more open to feedback and coaching than others and you know it varies
so anyway.
I am reminded and I can't think of a better place to to kind of close of Mr. Rogers talking
about you know look for the helpers.
Where you see helpers you see leaders.
Yeah.
(01:03:09):
Servant servant leader idea.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well thank you so much.
Thank you for having me on.
It has been an absolute pleasure.
I've really enjoyed our conversation and I'm looking forward to finishing leadership styles
myself because I do have it on my Kindle now.
All right great.
(01:03:30):
I hope you enjoy it and give me feedback after you read it and leadership is a great topic
and I love talking about it so maybe we can do it again down the road sometime in 25.
That'd be fabulous sir.
Thank you.
Thank you.
(01:03:55):
Thank you for joining me in the comfy chairs.
If you're enjoying this podcast don't forget to subscribe and share it with others who
are passionate about leading and learning and don't forget if you have a question for
our new comfy HQ series I'd love to hear it.
Check out the link in the show notes to submit your question and be part of the conversation
(01:04:18):
until next time.
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