March 14, 2023 • 11 mins
In this episode, Jeffrey A. "jam" McGuire sits down with Chris Fenwick, an experienced writer and editor interested in contemporary science and technology—and a new OSPea at the recording time! They discuss Chris's initial thoughts and impressions about the editing codes and how they can help us be more effective writers and transparent editors.
This is a lightning tour of how the codes came to be and why we find them so valuable for our daily work. Please enjoy this conversation with jam and Chris ... mostly jam, yes, but still worth a listen :-)
Welcome to the Open Strategy Partners podcast, "Communicate, Connect, Grow!" At Open Strategy Partners, we specialize in strategic product communication. We help you communicate the value of what you do, connect you with the people who need to know about it, and grow.
To get in touch with us, follow what we’re doing, or learn about our Writer Enablement Workshops, you can:
- Go to our website
- Email us at hello@openstrategypartners.com
- Hit us up on Twitter
- Subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to podcasts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:07):
Hi, I'm Carl from OSP. And this is communicate,
connect grow the OSP podcast, wedivide our episodes across three
themes communicate, connect, andgrow. This is a communicate
episode, where we have a bit ofa refresher on the editing codes
system we use here at OSP.
(00:43):
Jam sits down with the newestmember of the OSP family, Chris
Fenwick, an experienced writerand editor with an interest in
contemporary science andtechnology. They discussed
Chris's initial thoughts aboutthe editing codes, and how they
can help us at OSP be moreeffective writers and more
transparent editors. This is alightning tour of how the codes
(01:04):
came to be and why they are souseful in our daily work. Please
enjoy this conversation with jamand Chris!
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:11):
Hello, Chris Fenwick, how are you?
Chris Fenwick (01:13):
I'm very well, thank you.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:15):
This is your first time on what we call OS
pod internally, the OSP podcast,formally, we call it
communicate, connect, grow,which are where our founding
principles when we started thisthing off. Welcome to OSP, you
are our newest communicationsconsultant, how's it been so
(01:35):
far?
Chris Fenwick (01:35):
Very interesting.
It's quite nice having a varietyof clients to work with, which
is different from before. Imean, I used to do freelancing,
but then for the last fouryears, I worked internally with
one tech startup doing theircomps. So going back to having
some variety in the clients isis quite enjoyable.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:55):
Right? We do have variety, we have a bunch of
different people doing reallydifferent things in the
technical agency, technicalproduct, and open source project
space. And it is a joy for me tobe able to help people who are
my, my peers, and myprofessional friends in the in
the tech world that I come from,help them communicate about
(02:18):
their businesses tell the rightsorts of stories to help them
grow. And with our strategicadvice along the way, five years
into this, now we can, we cansee that it helps them which is
incredibly gratifying to me. Andsince we came out of open
source, part of how we operateon a daily basis is to share the
things that we learn. And weknow. And that is one of the
(02:41):
reasons why we have a podcast.
And that is one of the reasonswhy we're doing this particular
kind of podcast where we sharesort of a quick tip about how we
think about writing and editing.
You have not been with us verylong, but you have encountered
our editing code system. And sotoday as we're sitting in the in
(03:03):
the studio, we're we'repreparing to talk about three
different codes. And I know thatyou've been talking with
Felicity about the codes. Sothat's where this next question
is going. So, Chris, what do youthink of this OSP idea of having
a codified set of writing andediting code. So far,
Chris Fenwick (03:19):
I haven't been here very long so far. So I
haven't had, I haven't actuallydone any editing work on other
people's copy myself. So I'venot been able to use them from
that site. I think in principle,it can definitely speed things
up because you have a sort of abasic idea that is distilled in
(03:42):
the code that then can be addedimmediately in a comment. So I
think for an editor who alreadyknows all the codes off the top
of their head, for example, thenit definitely speeds up the
process of offering of offeringfeedback. And I mean, I've also
noticed that the codes aren'tjust used to offer criticism,
but you can put sort of doubleplus sign and use them to show
(04:06):
when something is done. Well.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (04:08):
Yeah. So in our founding phase, several of
us had come out of difficultwork environments. And we wanted
to build a culture that was theopposite of that. And we've been
really strongly influenced bynonviolent communication, by
positive psychology by gratitudepractices. And part of the idea
(04:31):
of the editing codes and exactlythe point that you mentioned, we
have a quick phase in ourprocess called the positivity
pass. If the writer who you'rehelping has done something,
well, it's really worth stoppingand, and, and telling them this
is good.
We look at writing and editing,first of all as a collaborative
learning process between peers.
And part of that comes from myorigin story where I would write
(04:54):
something, basically throw itover the wall to somebody else.
Who would do stuff and I mightor might not see it again,
before it was published with myname on it in a form that I
wasn't happy with. Or my bosswould make 34% of it, how he
wanted and then run out of time.
And I had to guess what wasgoing on. So I wanted to be able
(05:17):
to learn, and I wanted to beable to show people clearly what
I thought. And so if you'retold, "Hey, this is great, this
stylistic choice, this,whatever, that's great," that
helps you that helps reinforce,you know, doing the good things.
We also, if you've worked withless experienced writers, they,
they every word is their baby.
And you know, it's incrediblyhard to take feedback. And also,
(05:41):
just as humans, it's really hardto deal with feedback in general
without taking it personally.
And I feel that having thesecodes, it lets us be
transparent, it lets us be clearabout our intentions. And that
it's, it's, it's also sort ofsystematic, and so that's not
personal. But there's apsychological concept where if
you're fighting with someone,and you have a problem with
their behavior, instead ofsaying you always are you never
(06:01):
or you, you, you can say, thisbehavior, this thing, this kind
of event, so and so. And itremoves that conversation from
them to talking about the thingin between you. And sometimes
when I when I'm in this kind ofa conversation with someone,
I'll even sort of, because I'm avery gesticulate person, I'll
(06:23):
like sort of name it and I'llwrap my hands around it or move
it to another place in the room.
And then I'll point over thereto like, let my emotions out.
And I find that really helpful.
I believe that talking about thewriting as a process and calm
these, these, naming theseconcepts, helps us, I believe
the word is disintermediate, thelike, separate to the writing
(06:46):
from the person, and and helpsthe feedback go down better.
And another thing that we do ingeneral, as we use these to ...
we don't say, "Hey, you didthis, and I corrected it that
was wrong. Now it's right."Generally will say, Hey, this is
the original, and I suggestmaybe this would be clearer or
stronger or more colorful orsomething. And that gives the
(07:07):
author the chance to say hey, Ilove that everything's better
now. Or they say, "You know, Ithought about this really
carefully. And no, I don't agreewith that feedback. So I want to
leave it how it was." Or whathappens to me very often is I'll
see what I originally did, I'llsee a suggestion that's very
smart, and better than mine. Andthen, hey, somewhere along,
there's something even better,like a third idea that that
(07:30):
maximizes everyone's input. AndI'm, and I love that process.
And so this, this helps us learntogether, this helps us be
clear, clear with each other.
It's kind of a wholecommunication, facilitation
language somehow I know that's ahuge amount of me talking about
these things. But it came out ofa whole bunch of experiences.
And basically, Tracy, the otherco founder here, she's not a
(07:54):
writer, I was editing her stuff.
She was getting upset when I wasmaking changes, but seeing that
the result was better. And itwas very hard for us to talk
about why it was better.
So in our first two or threeyears in with our earliest
employees, we did a lot ofsessions where I would edit
texts and talk out loud, andpeople would ask me questions as
(08:16):
I was going, and we capturedthese things as we went. So I'm
glad you like them so far. And Ihope you I hope you find them as
helpful and useful as, as wehave over the last few years
developing and applying them.
That was a huge amount of wordsthat I just blasted at you. Do
you gotta get sure what thequestion should be.
Chris Fenwick (08:37):
I mean, I feel like I have to wait and see and
how ... spend more time usingthem also for myself. Yeah,
that's totally fair. Okay, andin this recording session, which
we'll be releasing in the nextcouple of episodes, we'll be
discussing three codes which arequite general and generally
applicable. So good writing,which are lead clear and gram.
(09:01):
Terrific.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (09:01):
So I look forward to it. In the podcast
land, see you next time inrecruiting session land. Now we
keep talking.
Carl Richards (09:28):
Share your examples or questions with us
via Twitter at open underscorestrategy or email Hello at
openstrategypartners.com. Ifyou'd like to learn more in the
meantime, come on over toopenstrategypartners.com. Have a
look at our writer enablementworkshops, case study offering
or get in touch to talk aboutyour strategy or product
(09:49):
communication needs.
Thanks to everyone whocontributed to this podcast, all
the Peas at OSP thanks to ourclients who believe in us, shout
out to Patrick Gaumont for ourhigh energy, maple syrup
flavored theme music and to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing!
(10:11):
About our three themes on thepodcast, you'll hear different
members of the OSP team hostingepisodes over time, communicate
all things communication. Weshare how we tackle writing,
editing, word choices, formats,processes, and more. Connect in
depth conversations withinteresting smart people about
(10:32):
who they are, what they do, andhow they approach their life and
work as communicators,technologists and leaders grow.
We cover approaches tounderstanding and expressing the
value of what you do, includingtools, templates, and practical
applications. We also feelstrongly about building a
(10:53):
mindful positive human firstculture at work that's bound to
pop up from time to time to thispodcast is us figuring out
communication connection andgrowing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, Applepodcasts or the podcast channel
of your choice. Follow ussuggest guests and topics. Ask
(11:15):
us questions on social media. Weare @open_strategy on Twitter.
Until next time, I'm CarlRichards and this is the OSP
podcast.
Hi, I'm Carl from OSP. And this is communicate,
connect grow the OSP podcast, wedivide our episodes across three
themes communicate, connect, andgrow. This is a communicate
episode, where we have a bit ofa refresher on the editing codes
system we use here at OSP.
(00:43):
Jam sits down with the newestmember of the OSP family, Chris
Fenwick, an experienced writerand editor with an interest in
contemporary science andtechnology. They discussed
Chris's initial thoughts aboutthe editing codes, and how they
can help us at OSP be moreeffective writers and more
transparent editors. This is alightning tour of how the codes
(01:04):
came to be and why they are souseful in our daily work. Please
enjoy this conversation with jamand Chris!
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:11):
Hello, Chris Fenwick, how are you?
Chris Fenwick (01:13):
I'm very well, thank you.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:15):
This is your first time on what we call OS
pod internally, the OSP podcast,formally, we call it
communicate, connect, grow,which are where our founding
principles when we started thisthing off. Welcome to OSP, you
are our newest communicationsconsultant, how's it been so
(01:35):
far?
Chris Fenwick (01:35):
Very interesting.
It's quite nice having a varietyof clients to work with, which
is different from before. Imean, I used to do freelancing,
but then for the last fouryears, I worked internally with
one tech startup doing theircomps. So going back to having
some variety in the clients isis quite enjoyable.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (01:55):
Right? We do have variety, we have a bunch of
different people doing reallydifferent things in the
technical agency, technicalproduct, and open source project
space. And it is a joy for me tobe able to help people who are
my, my peers, and myprofessional friends in the in
the tech world that I come from,help them communicate about
(02:18):
their businesses tell the rightsorts of stories to help them
grow. And with our strategicadvice along the way, five years
into this, now we can, we cansee that it helps them which is
incredibly gratifying to me. Andsince we came out of open
source, part of how we operateon a daily basis is to share the
things that we learn. And weknow. And that is one of the
(02:41):
reasons why we have a podcast.
And that is one of the reasonswhy we're doing this particular
kind of podcast where we sharesort of a quick tip about how we
think about writing and editing.
You have not been with us verylong, but you have encountered
our editing code system. And sotoday as we're sitting in the in
(03:03):
the studio, we're we'repreparing to talk about three
different codes. And I know thatyou've been talking with
Felicity about the codes. Sothat's where this next question
is going. So, Chris, what do youthink of this OSP idea of having
a codified set of writing andediting code. So far,
Chris Fenwick (03:19):
I haven't been here very long so far. So I
haven't had, I haven't actuallydone any editing work on other
people's copy myself. So I'venot been able to use them from
that site. I think in principle,it can definitely speed things
up because you have a sort of abasic idea that is distilled in
(03:42):
the code that then can be addedimmediately in a comment. So I
think for an editor who alreadyknows all the codes off the top
of their head, for example, thenit definitely speeds up the
process of offering of offeringfeedback. And I mean, I've also
noticed that the codes aren'tjust used to offer criticism,
but you can put sort of doubleplus sign and use them to show
(04:06):
when something is done. Well.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (04:08):
Yeah. So in our founding phase, several of
us had come out of difficultwork environments. And we wanted
to build a culture that was theopposite of that. And we've been
really strongly influenced bynonviolent communication, by
positive psychology by gratitudepractices. And part of the idea
(04:31):
of the editing codes and exactlythe point that you mentioned, we
have a quick phase in ourprocess called the positivity
pass. If the writer who you'rehelping has done something,
well, it's really worth stoppingand, and, and telling them this
is good.
We look at writing and editing,first of all as a collaborative
learning process between peers.
And part of that comes from myorigin story where I would write
(04:54):
something, basically throw itover the wall to somebody else.
Who would do stuff and I mightor might not see it again,
before it was published with myname on it in a form that I
wasn't happy with. Or my bosswould make 34% of it, how he
wanted and then run out of time.
And I had to guess what wasgoing on. So I wanted to be able
(05:17):
to learn, and I wanted to beable to show people clearly what
I thought. And so if you'retold, "Hey, this is great, this
stylistic choice, this,whatever, that's great," that
helps you that helps reinforce,you know, doing the good things.
We also, if you've worked withless experienced writers, they,
they every word is their baby.
And you know, it's incrediblyhard to take feedback. And also,
(05:41):
just as humans, it's really hardto deal with feedback in general
without taking it personally.
And I feel that having thesecodes, it lets us be
transparent, it lets us be clearabout our intentions. And that
it's, it's, it's also sort ofsystematic, and so that's not
personal. But there's apsychological concept where if
you're fighting with someone,and you have a problem with
their behavior, instead ofsaying you always are you never
(06:01):
or you, you, you can say, thisbehavior, this thing, this kind
of event, so and so. And itremoves that conversation from
them to talking about the thingin between you. And sometimes
when I when I'm in this kind ofa conversation with someone,
I'll even sort of, because I'm avery gesticulate person, I'll
(06:23):
like sort of name it and I'llwrap my hands around it or move
it to another place in the room.
And then I'll point over thereto like, let my emotions out.
And I find that really helpful.
I believe that talking about thewriting as a process and calm
these, these, naming theseconcepts, helps us, I believe
the word is disintermediate, thelike, separate to the writing
(06:46):
from the person, and and helpsthe feedback go down better.
And another thing that we do ingeneral, as we use these to ...
we don't say, "Hey, you didthis, and I corrected it that
was wrong. Now it's right."Generally will say, Hey, this is
the original, and I suggestmaybe this would be clearer or
stronger or more colorful orsomething. And that gives the
(07:07):
author the chance to say hey, Ilove that everything's better
now. Or they say, "You know, Ithought about this really
carefully. And no, I don't agreewith that feedback. So I want to
leave it how it was." Or whathappens to me very often is I'll
see what I originally did, I'llsee a suggestion that's very
smart, and better than mine. Andthen, hey, somewhere along,
there's something even better,like a third idea that that
(07:30):
maximizes everyone's input. AndI'm, and I love that process.
And so this, this helps us learntogether, this helps us be
clear, clear with each other.
It's kind of a wholecommunication, facilitation
language somehow I know that's ahuge amount of me talking about
these things. But it came out ofa whole bunch of experiences.
And basically, Tracy, the otherco founder here, she's not a
(07:54):
writer, I was editing her stuff.
She was getting upset when I wasmaking changes, but seeing that
the result was better. And itwas very hard for us to talk
about why it was better.
So in our first two or threeyears in with our earliest
employees, we did a lot ofsessions where I would edit
texts and talk out loud, andpeople would ask me questions as
(08:16):
I was going, and we capturedthese things as we went. So I'm
glad you like them so far. And Ihope you I hope you find them as
helpful and useful as, as wehave over the last few years
developing and applying them.
That was a huge amount of wordsthat I just blasted at you. Do
you gotta get sure what thequestion should be.
Chris Fenwick (08:37):
I mean, I feel like I have to wait and see and
how ... spend more time usingthem also for myself. Yeah,
that's totally fair. Okay, andin this recording session, which
we'll be releasing in the nextcouple of episodes, we'll be
discussing three codes which arequite general and generally
applicable. So good writing,which are lead clear and gram.
(09:01):
Terrific.
Jeffrey A. McGuire (09:01):
So I look forward to it. In the podcast
land, see you next time inrecruiting session land. Now we
keep talking.
Carl Richards (09:28):
Share your examples or questions with us
via Twitter at open underscorestrategy or email Hello at
openstrategypartners.com. Ifyou'd like to learn more in the
meantime, come on over toopenstrategypartners.com. Have a
look at our writer enablementworkshops, case study offering
or get in touch to talk aboutyour strategy or product
(09:49):
communication needs.
Thanks to everyone whocontributed to this podcast, all
the Peas at OSP thanks to ourclients who believe in us, shout
out to Patrick Gaumont for ourhigh energy, maple syrup
flavored theme music and to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing!
(10:11):
About our three themes on thepodcast, you'll hear different
members of the OSP team hostingepisodes over time, communicate
all things communication. Weshare how we tackle writing,
editing, word choices, formats,processes, and more. Connect in
depth conversations withinteresting smart people about
(10:32):
who they are, what they do, andhow they approach their life and
work as communicators,technologists and leaders grow.
We cover approaches tounderstanding and expressing the
value of what you do, includingtools, templates, and practical
applications. We also feelstrongly about building a
(10:53):
mindful positive human firstculture at work that's bound to
pop up from time to time to thispodcast is us figuring out
communication connection andgrowing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, Applepodcasts or the podcast channel
of your choice. Follow ussuggest guests and topics. Ask
(11:15):
us questions on social media. Weare @open_strategy on Twitter.
Until next time, I'm CarlRichards and this is the OSP
podcast.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com