What if there was a way to redefine the significance of non-code contributions in open source projects? That's exactly what our guest, Bryan Behrenshausen of GitLab, is here to explore with us. OSPea, Felicity Brand, and Bryan journey together through the evolving landscape of open source projects and discuss the value of non-code contributions. Bryan shares his insights into the creation of contributor pathways, the optimization of recognition systems, and the importance of fostering an environment of effective communication.
Felicity and Bryan discuss remote work and how asynchronous communication can revolutionize your work culture. We unwrap GitLab's unique model that's setting industry benchmarks, discussing their tools, policies, and practices that cultivate a healthy work environment. Bryan explains GitLab's innovative Team Ops model, which champions a distributed, asynchronous work approach, ensuring everyone feels connected and valued.
Bryan and Felicity dive into GitLab's Open Source Programs and Partnerships, discussing the exciting opportunities these programs bring to the table and how they play a vital role in nurturing a thriving open source ecosystem.
Show notes
- GitLab Handbook
- The Good Docs Project
- How The Good Docs Project Uses GitLab
- Symfony Contributor Guide - Respectful review comments
- Excalidraw
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:07):
Hi, I'm Carl from OSP and this is Communicate
Connect Grow, the OSP podcast.
At OSP, we do a lot of thinkingabout what makes for effective,
consistent communication.
In this podcast, we want toshow you how we translate
between technical complexity andbusiness value to create
strategic product communicationat OSP and we want to learn more
(00:29):
from you and our guests.
This episode is part of ourConnect series on the podcast.
Connect episodes are in-depthconversations with interesting,
smart people about who they are,what they do and how they
approach their life and work ascommunicators, technologists and
leaders.
Today, OSPea Felicity Brandsits down with from GitLab.
(01:08):
These two discover they arekindred spirits with a shared
love of writing and editing.
They chat about the importanceof non-code contributions in
open source, best practices whenyou're all remote and how fun
it can be to work asynchronously.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Felicity and Bryan.
Felicity Brand (01:26):
Hello everyone.
I am Felicity Brand, acommunications consultant at
Open Strategy Partners, andtoday I'm joined by , senior
Open Source Program Manager atGitLab.
Welcome, Bryan.
Bryan Behrenshausen (01:41):
Thanks so much.
You got my last name in one.
That's really impressive.
Thanks for having me on thepodcast.
Just thanks for doing thepodcast.
I have to say, since youinvited me, I've gone through
the back catalog, I've beenplowing through and it's just a
delight.
To be honest, it's a podcastI've been looking for for a long
time.
(02:01):
I'm just delighted that itexists.
Thank you.
Felicity Brand (02:04):
I'm glad to hear that they say write the book
you want to read and, I think,make the podcast you want to
hear.
Bryan Behrenshausen (02:12):
I wanted to hear it too.
Thank you very much.
It's really been a pleasure.
I had a long car ride a coupleof weeks ago.
Just queued up a bunch and havebeen enjoying them, thanks.
Felicity Brand (02:22):
Fantastic to hear.
This is the first time we'vespoken in person.
We met recently through TheGood Docs Project which is an
open source project I'm involvedwith that is creating best
practice documentation,templates for software and
communities.
The Good Docs was recentlyinvited to become a GitLab open
(02:43):
source partner, which is a majormilestone for the project.
We were delighted with that.
Bryan, I'm really happy to chatwith you today.
I suspect that we are kindredspirits.
We both like writing, editingand open source.
Can you tell us briefly aboutyour role at GitLab?
Bryan Behrenshausen (03:05):
Sure Happy to.
I am Senior Open Source ProgramManager at GitLab.
That is a role that's on ourdeveloper relations team, which
itself is embedded in themarketing organization.
All the various members of myteam operate at that interface
between GitLab, the company andthe wider GitLab community.
Naturally, because we're anopen core product, we're
(03:29):
supremely interested in thehealth and well-being of the
GitLab developer community.
My role, however, isn'tnecessarily to look after open
source contributions to GitLab.
I have teammates wonderfulteammates in contributor success
who do that work Notcontributions to GitLab, but
(03:50):
it's more focused on open sourcecontributions on GitLab.
My role is focused on reallyassisting and empowering the
open source projects that chooseto develop on and with GitLab.
Make sure they have what theyneed in order to succeed to
shine a spotlight on the greatopen source work that occurs on
(04:11):
and with GitLab.
I run a few programs as part ofthat remit, but it seems to me
that we're going to probably getinto those a little bit later.
I'll withhold my elaboration tothem, but that's my role at
GitLab.
Felicity Brand (04:21):
That sounds like a many and varied role.
Very interesting.
I'm sure that keeps you on yourtoes.
Bryan Behrenshausen (04:27):
Yes, it does.
Felicity Brand (04:28):
I'm curious to hear about your journey to open
source, but first I wanted toshare my story.
I came to open source asrecently as four years ago.
Two things happened at the sametime.
I did the Google season of docstheir inaugural program in 2019
, and I joined Open StrategyPartners.
(04:50):
Around the same time.
I was involved at theco-founding of The Good Docs
Project.
There was this confluence ofevents.
Prior to that, I had spent mycareer as a tech writer in
working for software companies.
What I discovered, or what Iworking with open source helped
me discover in my adult life, isthat I am intrinsically
(05:11):
motivated.
I would always come to work inmy traditional companies,
assuming that everyone else hadthe same motivation as me.
I was always surprised when Ifound out that actually no, they
were coming to work becausethey needed a pay check, they
needed to pay the bills.
I was always interested in thesuccess of building the thing or
(05:34):
getting something off theground.
Open source was a realeye-opener for me because what I
found was people were coming toa project to build something.
Everyone was interested inseeing it succeed.
We're all volunteering our time, so you're kind of rubbing
shoulders with people who aregood at what they do.
They're interested in thesuccess of a thing and that's
(05:56):
the way I love to work.
Obviously that is a bit rosyLike I'm sure there are horror
stories out there in open source, but that's why I feel so
privileged today to work in opensource with open strategy
partners.
We have a lot of open sourceclients.
I spend my time in other opensource projects.
TYPO 3 is a large open sourceCMS and obviously The Good Docs
(06:20):
Project.
So that's my happy story.
But, Bryan, I know you've beeninvolved with open source a lot
longer than that, so please tellme what was your first
interaction with open source.
Bryan Behrenshausen (06:31):
Yeah, well, I'm happy to.
But first I just want tocomment on that and say welcome
and second say you know, I knowwe're going to talk about
contributions to open sourcethat are not development focused
in a little while at least, Ibelieve we will.
I just want to say, you know,that's why recognizing those
contributions is important,because there are many you know
felicities in the world who havethis intrinsic sense of
(06:52):
motivation, a strong orientationtoward community, and they are
the stuff that open sourceprojects are made of.
Right, they might not do thespecific kind of work that you
know we have historicallyrecognized in open source, but
they are the type of people thatnot only thrive in open source
work but also make open sourceprojects thrive.
(07:12):
This is why I'm glad that we're, you know, we're having this
conversation about, about thosepractices.
But anyway, I just wanted toremark on that as a prelude to,
perhaps you know, what we'lldiscuss later.
So I'm happy to tell you aboutmy history in open source, and
that is starts in 2007, late2007, when I purchased what at
the time was my first netbook.
(07:32):
Do you have one of these, oneof these netbook computers?
It was like a very small, thelow spec notebook computers that
were focused on portability,right, it was a product category
that was super hot for a burn astar that burned super bright,
super quickly.
They don't make them muchanymore.
They were low, these kind oflow spec notebook computers, and
I had what was widelyconsidered the first model, the
(07:55):
EEPC or the EPC 701.
And that was running a Linuxdistribution called Zandross, a
custom Linux distribution calledZandross Linux, which was based
on Debian, and that was myfirst exposure to mainstream
desktop consumer facing opensource software in general.
I mean, of course, you know,like like most people, I've been
using open source software foryears because I've been using
(08:16):
the internet and the internet isbuilt on open source software,
so I've been using open sourcesoftware.
But I mean my first exposure to,you know, desktop consumer
facing open source software.
It was in 2007.
And of course, you know, soonenough I ran up against the
limitations of that machine andstarted poking around with it.
And because it's it's opensource and because it's Linux,
you can poke around a lotfurther than you can with other
(08:37):
tools and I learned how toaccess the command line, and
then I learned how to run aptand app get, and then the rest
is sort of history, right.
So all that, though I will sayI never learned how to develop
software.
You know, from the verybeginning of my history with my
history with computers, you know, sitting up in my grandfather's
study playing around on hisCommodore 64 and learning how to
(08:57):
make it work, you know, I never.
I never had an interest inprogramming.
But since that initialencounter with Zandross I've
come to care really deeply aboutissues surrounding free and
open source software, digitalrights etc.
And like so many people, Iguess I came for the technology
but I stayed for the philosophy,you know, when it comes to open
source and free software.
(09:18):
So I've been into open sourcesoftware as a user and an
advocate for a long time.
But I got my first internship inopen source at Red Hat in 2011,
when I was also doing my PhD incommunication studies in North
Carolina, and it's experienceyou know about which I think I'm
still pinching myself to thisday really like an analogy for
those of us here in the States,I guess, would be you know, it's
(09:40):
like saying you got intobaseball and then you got
drafted by the Yankees right outof you know, as soon as you got
into baseball, like it's justyou know, it's like you go.
I worked at Red Hat for 12years and it was like you know,
playing at the epicenter of opensource work, working with the
best of the best in the field,from day one, like it was just a
magical experience, right.
So in that 12 years at Red Hat,I was an intern, I worked and
(10:04):
then was hired full time after Ifinished my degree, but I
worked on the brand team and incorporate marketing and in
public relations and in the opensource program office and a
bunch of different roles there,but in all those roles I
essentially wrote and edited andserved as a community manager
in some way or another.
So Kindred Spirits, felicity,yes, as you said.
Yeah in 2021, I joined GitLabto help grow open source
(10:25):
programs as part of developerrelations.
And now I'm talking to you.
Felicity Brand (10:29):
Wow, that sounds like a dream.
Bryan Behrenshausen (10:31):
It has been .
Felicity Brand (10:32):
Well, so let's talk about non code
contributions.
Like you, I am not a softwaredeveloper.
I've worked developer adjacentfor my career as a technical
writer.
I recognized that I hadsomething to offer open source
communities, I suppose because Iknow that software projects are
so much more than just the code.
Sure, you can open source yourcode, but there has to be kind
(10:57):
of an ecosystem around that, andso wherever there is code,
there is going to need to be atech writer in my view.
So that's why I kind of thought, well, of course there's a
space for me here, of course Ihave something to offer, and
what I've seen in my time.
So over those four years, I'veseen more and more technical
writers, ux designers, productowners, people kind of flocking
(11:17):
to open source projects andproducts, looking to either give
back or just to get experiencefor their portfolio, something
like that.
So let's talk about theimportance of non code
contributions.
Bryan Behrenshausen (11:28):
Yeah, the subject that's near and dear to
my heart because it's as I saidpreviously, it's where I sit and
where I've always sat.
When I started getting involvedin open source as more than
just a user, I volunteered withdocumentation projects, worked
on the Ubuntu manual project atthe time because I knew that.
I knew that I couldn'tcontribute a lick of code, but I
knew I could help brush up somedocumentation.
(11:50):
I could write a user manual andthings like that.
So I've always felt like avalued and important member of
the open source ecosystemwithout contributing a line of
code.
I think it did make my firstcode contribution a year or two
ago when I changed the text on abutton.
I think that counts right.
Like I'm pretty sure that I wasdigging around in somebody's
(12:10):
like Python file, so I'm prettysure you know that counts.
Felicity Brand (12:13):
Yeah, I think so , and have you noticed so in
your time?
From 2007, have you noticed ashift or a change in terms of
valuing contributions?
That are code.
Bryan Behrenshausen (12:23):
I really have, yeah, and it's been a
welcome and refreshing change.
And the first thing I'll say isthat what I'm seeing is
something that I welcome, whichis the erosion or sort of the
erasure of the code non-codedistinction right applied to the
field of open sourcecontributions.
Right, that's really yeah, itonly really serves to reify code
(12:44):
contributions as a kind of aprivileged site or a privileged
class of contribution by markingit, you know, linguistically,
as the dominant and theneverything else is not that
right.
But like.
So what you're saying isessentially there's code and
non-code contributions and theother codes are.
The other contributions arejust as you know.
But I prefer to just talk aboutopen source contributions, you
know, and development is one anddocumentation is one, and so I
(13:06):
try to avoid the code non-codedistinction as a way of reifying
the code as dominant form ofcontribution.
Felicity Brand (13:12):
But I like that idea and I think it is reflected
in projects contributionguidelines.
So often projects will have adocument which outlines how they
want people to contribute totheir project, and sometimes you
will see kind of a split.
This is how you do a codecontribution, but it's great if
(13:32):
you can bring them all togetherin one.
Bryan Behrenshausen (13:35):
I think that projects that are really
mature and thoughtful aboutthese things work on various
contributor pathways.
So they start with the user orthe contributor, rather, and
they start with thatcontributor's passion and that
contributor's skill set and theybuild contributor pathways that
optimize for that contributor'sparticular background and
skills and channel them intoaspects of the project that
(14:00):
would benefit from those skillsand passions.
So along with that, anotherthing that I'm seeing that I
think is really encouraging isthe gradual, I think, inclusion
of more I don't know aheterogeneous variety of
open-source related activitiesin a project's reward mechanisms
.
The projects have a pointsystem or a leaderboard.
(14:21):
They're increasingly includingmore types of contribution
activities in their formalrecognition systems.
So they're tracking.
The top contributor to this Xproject this month is counting
more than just lines of codecontributed.
It's other things.
So, including those things intheir reward mechanisms show how
(14:44):
they value those contributionsbut also incentivize for them,
so welcome to your talk.
Felicity Brand (14:49):
Yeah, I'm really interested in that as a
non-code contributor.
So I work in the content teamof Type-O3 and I'm always
recognized for content that wepublish.
I'll get a little shout out onthose.
I've also seen talk of projectstrying to implement like a Kudo
system or a point system to, asyou say, recognize things that
(15:10):
aren't necessarily an approvedmerge request into the code base
.
That does contribute to theoverall health of the community
and the project.
I've seen some really goodcontributor guidelines out there
.
One that comes to mind that Ireally enjoy is Symphony.
What I really like about aparticular page I'm thinking of
in their guideline is they giveexamples for how to write in
(15:35):
terms of the language they wantpeople to use in their issue
requests, in their mergerequests.
So I'm not talking about atemplate like a merge request
template.
I'm talking about if you'redoing a review of a pool request
.
They give examples of thelanguage to use when giving
feedback and basically it'sabout respect.
So they're trying to build arespectful community and
(15:57):
contributor guidelines, you getbonus points.
You can just say we wanteveryone to be respectful, but
if you give examples for thelanguage for people, to use.
It just goes so much further.
So have you seen some goodexamples in your time?
Bryan Behrenshausen (16:11):
I mean, I'm sure I have, but of course I
can't think of anything off thetop.
My head is specific, I know.
But I know exactly what you'retalking about and I'll just say
a general comment on that.
I will say, first, I agree withyou and I think it's great to
bring that up.
And second of all, I will saythis is why I hesitate a little
bit at folks who say, like allyou need for a code of conduct
is a statement that says be kindto each other or be excellent
(16:34):
to one another.
I think that's a nice sentimentand I really do truly believe
folks that put those things intheir codes of conduct are
coming from the right place.
But I believe it's not enough.
I mean, what does that looklike?
What does that feel like forour community?
Likewise, where folks aresaying things like we need to be
more thoughtful about bringingin how we treat newcomers and
how we engage, great, show mewhat that feels like.
(16:56):
And it's the same way withremote working practices, which
we may talk about at some pointtoo, where folks are saying we
need to be thoughtful with eachother and hold each other
accountable, they like to say,for following these practices.
But what does that sound like?
Give me a sense of what thatlooks and sounds like so that I
understand that I can bringsomething up, raise something,
(17:18):
say something in a way that'salmost kind of sanctioned by the
community, so that I don't feellike I'm new and I'm sticking
my nose in and I'm going toruffle any feathers.
It's okay to say that's not howwe talk to each other here,
right, and put that in yourdocumentation, right?
Or something like sanction yourinterjections.
I guess you know what I mean.
So I know I totally get whatyou're saying.
(17:39):
I wish I had a great example ofa project that did like you do,
but there are plenty out there.
Felicity Brand (17:43):
Yeah, I really you're such a professional,
Bryan, because that was a greatsegue into talking about remote
work, so I know.
Bryan Behrenshausen (17:50):
Oh, great Sorry.
Felicity Brand (17:53):
So GitLab are a remote first company, the true
to say yes, and we are famouslyall remote, I should say.
Bryan Behrenshausen (18:00):
And I can start to talk.
It's hard to track these things, but we do believe we're the
world's largest all remoteorganization, at around 2,000
people headcount.
Felicity Brand (18:10):
Open strategy partners are also all remote.
We do have headquarters inCologne, germany, but let's talk
about remote work.
So over 2,000 employees.
Does it work, and what sort ofpractices and processes do you
have in place to help set you upfor success?
Bryan Behrenshausen (18:29):
Yeah.
So I think whether it works is apractical matter that's
different for everyone.
I will say that our success asan organization like Lee speaks
for itself and the success ofour model, our operating model
which we'll get to in a second,I'll talk about more in a second
and we have a lot of practicesthat I think have set industry
(18:49):
benchmarks in terms of remotework, our handbook being one of
them, is probably one of themost famous or most easily
observable artifacts of ourculture, which is our, the
GitLab handbook, which isnotoriously open Open by default
.
I can say that whether or notthat works I don't know, but it
works for me because I findworking at GitLab is infinitely
(19:10):
easier when that is the case,when the handbook is open, and I
can say that it makes workingwith the GitLab community a lot
easier.
Infinitely easier as well,because when I need to explain
why something is the case or dueto a GitLab policy or procedure
, I can simply link to it.
If a community member says ohwell, it's our policy and here's
(19:34):
the policy, the same documentthat everybody at GitLab is
using.
So that's why we talk aboutGitLab team members and the
wider GitLab community.
We try to erode thatdistinction as possible.
We also don't ignore thedistinction Like yes, there are
folks who are GitLab teammembers and there are folks that
are part of the community.
But we try to embrace all.
And also, I'll just say as anaside, the handbook made
(19:56):
interviewing at GitLab so mucheasier and less stressful
because I could read the entireinterview process, even some
potential interview questions,in the handbook.
That included, by the way,accessing the salary calculator
to begin getting a sense of whatmy salary range would be if
GitLab made me an offer for ajob.
So that is open and transparent.
(20:18):
It gets labbed to as much aspossible, to the greatest extent
possible so again, these aresome of the benefits that I've
seen, not to say nothing of theday in and day out work a day
benefits of working according toour operating model, which we
call T-Maps.
Felicity Brand (20:36):
Yeah, so give me a sense of your, as you say,
your day to day, like what sortof tools are you using to
interact with people and get onwith it?
Bryan Behrenshausen (20:45):
Yeah, so we are a GitLab-first organization
.
So the policy and the spirit isuse GitLab first whenever
possible.
Even maybe when it's not quitepossible, make it possible,
because that's what pushesGitLab forward.
So I'm on GitLab, I would say,90% of my day.
(21:05):
That's especially true workingin the particular role that I
have where I'm interacting withopen source communities on
GitLab.
I just need to be on theplatform.
But one of the reasons I wantedto work at GitLab is just
because I love the tool and Iwanted to not only help make it
better but use it more.
So I certainly use it now and Ilove it.
(21:26):
So most of my days is spent onGitLab.
But of course, we have our toolchain, like everybody else.
We have a messenger, we useSlack.
But some interesting thingsabout Slack is we have some
policies around using privatemessages.
I don't know where this istracked, but I believe that
(21:48):
administrators are able to seethe percentage of messages that
go to channels and messages thatgo to DMs and raise some
warnings if there's too muchprivate communication.
Felicity Brand (21:57):
Right, so that's folding into your open ethos
Approach.
I imagine that, right.
Yeah, channel communicationchannel by default.
Bryan Behrenshausen (22:05):
Yeah, channel by default and EMS as a
last resort, or private messageas a last resort or if it's
something sensitive.
You know it's a people issue.
Where there's a you know youhave to share a private you know
bit of information or something.
Obviously you know there arealways cases, but the more often
than not you don't need to dothat.
Somebody could benefit fromwhat you're saying and what
you're doing if you posted inyour team's channel, so the
(22:27):
ideas you go there.
We also delete our slackhistory after 90 days.
So, yeah, things don't live inslack after 90 days and that's
Deliberately disincentive eyes.
Using slack as a source oftruth for anything, yes, yes, I
love that.
Felicity Brand (22:41):
Yeah, what if you want to blow off steam or
just have some leisure time?
Bryan Behrenshausen (22:47):
I imagine you have channels for jokes and
there's gif channels, there's anall caps channel, there's a.
You know, I'm in Legos, I'm inthe all caps, I'm in the yeah
yeah, yeah.
That's, that's to go in, andjust you know.
And there are channels fordifferent localities.
Again, we're all remote, butget lab team members love
getting together in person.
(23:07):
So there are remote.
There are location basedchannels where if something's
going on in your, your town oryour neighborhood or city or
your region, you can post andtalk in there and people meet up
and post pictures in there oftheir work, co-working days and
stuff.
So All those channels exist aswell.
Felicity Brand (23:23):
Sure, absolutely do you have an onboarding
process to teach new employees,the remote first?
Bryan Behrenshausen (23:31):
approach.
Yes, it's quite intimidating,to be honest.
It's voluminous because itinvolves a lot of self directed
work.
It takes up the onboardingprocess at get lab.
Takes about a month to complete.
That's by recommendation, isabout a month, takes about four
weeks.
When you join get lab, yourassigned an issue, that is your
onboarding issue.
That has several.
I think it's now about ahundred and thirty seven thing.
(23:55):
Don't quote me on that because Ispent a while since I looked at
it, but when I lasted it it wasover a hundred items that you
must complete and those areeverything from you know day one
Lockdown your security stuff,make sure your info, sex stuff
is is is tight.
So you do that first, all theway up to hey, look, here's your
tutorial on, if you'reunfamiliar with it.
Here's how to make, here's howto Make a get commit and here's
(24:17):
how to do a merger quest on getlab right, which are survival
skills right?
So it takes about a month, it'sseveral, you know it's over a
hundred, more than a hundreditems long and it's mostly self
directed work because everythingat get lab Is more than
thoroughly documented and ifit's not documented to get lab
likely doesn't exist.
So means you gotta be ready todo a lot of reading and a lot of
(24:39):
asynchronous video tutorialsand things like that during your
first four weeks of work.
Felicity Brand (24:45):
I'm asynchronous to.
Bryan Behrenshausen (24:46):
I'm in Melbourne, australia, but most
of my team are in the northernhemisphere, so the cobblers elf,
as they say yeah, I think it'sthe perfect, which I think it's
the perfect story, because Iwould say that that is also one
of my very favorite benefits ofworking for a distributed
organization in asynchronous wayis that sort of Cross
(25:07):
hemisphere, cross time zone, buton pass of the day, right, and
just the idea that you know thework is like this 24 hour
continuous stream and your workday is sort of where you choose
to plug into that stream, rideit and then pull out at the end,
like you jack into the matrixwhen you need to.
Then you like do your and youpull out.
You know it could be, it couldbe any, you know any, any moment
(25:29):
in your day or whatever.
But Working in an asynchronousway with a distributed team
makes all kinds of things thatweren't formally possible.
Again, I understand it's notfor everybody, but for me it
just clicks with how I live andhow I think and how I work.
So yeah.
I cross the time zones that Ican hand stuff off to and then
likewise wake up and see allthis cool stuff they've done and
(25:49):
take the baton from them andpush it along while they're
spending time with their familyand having dinner and go, you
know, sleeping, and Go to thegym or whatever.
That is a thrill for me to yeah, I totally hear what you're
saying.
Felicity Brand (26:01):
Just another aspect in which we are kindred
spirits.
So I want to ask you about Teamops, your distributed
asynchronous operating modelyeah yeah, I just wanted to add
on to that.
I also feel that joy of beingasynchronous, and when I started
at open strategy partners, ittook a little while for us to
work out, but Once we realize wecould use it to our advantage,
(26:22):
my colleagues would writesomething.
It would come into my queue.
I'd wake up, I would review it,mark it up with feedback, send
it back.
That wake up.
Oh, you know, it's just thenext day and how.
Now I can give it to the client.
So that is as you say.
It's.
It's a.
You get a thrill when you knowthat you are Adding value, like
you're helping someone.
(26:42):
Yes, move a piece along.
Bryan Behrenshausen (26:45):
Kindred spirits, again.
That is what that's.
What motivates me to do my workis when I know I'm being of use
to someone, or helpful tosomeone, or or in live in their
work or enriching their work,and likewise when people do that
for me.
Right, that's why I like opensource and that's why I like
working in this highlycollaborative, distributed way,
right, yeah, for sure?
Felicity Brand (27:04):
so tell us about team ops.
What is that all about?
Bryan Behrenshausen (27:07):
Yeah, so.
So team ops is anorganizational operating model
that is really, I think, thecrystal crystalization of Get
labs way of working.
The get lab way of working thatwe've sort of refined over the
years are best practices.
Working all remote are thingsthat people often ask us about.
They often ask our CEO about,they often ask lots of get lab
(27:29):
employees about, and so they'redocumented.
But team ops is our way to sortof operationalize those things
right to build to program tiesthem in a way that Makes them
not only like graspable andnoble and repeatable for other
organizations, but also possibleright that actually holds us
accountable to say like no,really, what are you doing?
And like, if you had to explainthis is somebody, how would you
(27:51):
do it?
And so it's our way of sharingbest practices for working in a
distributed way, highdistributed way, asynchronous
way with the world at get lab.
Another hat that I hold is I'ma certified team ops trainer, so
I train other get lab teammembers, new folks, on the kind
of the tenants of team ops, andalso we work with external
(28:13):
customers as well who Againwanna bring team ops to their
team or understand that the waythat their team is working needs
to change or maybe has beenforced to change by events like
I don't know, like a globalpandemic or something like on
fat mobile, like that, where thethings like change radically
and you have to Adapt your wayof working.
You know we have a tool set,you know, culture and value
(28:37):
based tool set that helps yourorganization operationalize
these sort of more abstractprinciples about the heart of
this remote work model one ofthe downsides of being a sink is
you can feel a bit lonely.
Felicity Brand (28:52):
Well, I can.
I'm lucky at certain times ofthe year.
The time zones shift, you know,we have daylight savings, and
so I do get some crossover inthe early morning and in the
evening, and so that is just apart of my job, that I'll take
meetings after dinner.
Yeah, I really enjoy gettingface time.
I just wanted to tell you aboutone thing that we have at OSP
(29:15):
that helps us feel stayconnected as a team.
So we have a weekly teammeeting that gets recorded and I
watch it the next day becauseit happens at my 2am.
After a while I realized well,every I get to see everyone, but
people don't get to see me, andso what we do now is before the
(29:36):
meeting in my daytime.
I will join the meeting.
It's a Google Meet and I canpress record.
I'll record a two-minute updateand then, when the rest of the
team join the meeting, they playmy update, so everyone gets to
see me.
Bryan Behrenshausen (29:49):
That's great, yes, perfect.
Felicity Brand (29:51):
And then when I view the meeting I see everyone
in the team watching me.
Yeah, it gets a bit better, butthat has gone a long way to
help us feel together and justgetting that FaceTime is really
beneficial.
Bryan Behrenshausen (30:02):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That's a lovely practice andmakes you feel included and
helps the rest of the team notonly feel your presence as a
team member, but also appreciateyour contributions more because
you're there talking about itand telling them about it.
Felicity Brand (30:18):
That's right, that's right.
So yeah, it is, but, as you say, it's not for everyone.
Some people may really struggle.
If they didn't have you canstill be distributed.
But if you're at leastsynchronous, that goes a long
way to helping you feelconnected.
Bryan Behrenshausen (30:33):
So yeah, yeah, and I would say that
things like operational modelslike team ops are optimized for
asynchronous, but they don'tpreclude synchronous
interactions.
In fact, what they do is theyalso optimize those synchronous
opportunities as well.
So, for example, at GitLab, it'ssort of taboo to have a meeting
(30:54):
where you're reading outwithout any discussion for 40
minutes or even five minutes.
Five minutes is probably themax, but the idea is, if you're
going to have a meeting that andyou're going to have it
synchronously, you want thebenefits that come with having a
synchronous interactionalpossibilities.
So if I'm going to read outslides for 45 minutes, I'll
(31:14):
record that, send them beforethe meeting, everybody watch
that and then I spend my 30minutes with everybody, not
going over it again, but havinga discussion about that.
I mean, because that's whatthat's the benefit of having
everybody there right Is thatthey can get their feedback, not
so they can sit and listen tome in a time zone of my choosing
at a time of day of my choosing, so that I can get their
(31:34):
feedback.
So again, models like team opsdon't preclude synchronous
interactions, but they dooptimize for them in ways that
for some might feel like they'redownplaying synchronous, but
not really.
Felicity Brand (31:45):
Yes, Well, everyone's time is important and
we should all value eachother's time.
Let's talk about oh OK, We'vegot two topics I can't choose,
so I was going to ask you aboutthe GitLab Open Source Partners
program and we should talk aboutthat, but then I also do want
to talk to you about the OpenOrganization Project.
(32:05):
So, Bryan, our paths crossedbecause the Open Source Project
I'm involved with, The Good DocsProject, was recently invited
to be a GitLab Open SourcePartner.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout that program and what it's
all about?
Bryan Behrenshausen (32:23):
Absolutely can.
So I'll back up a little bitand just say that there are two
programs that are relevant herethat I manage at GitLab.
They're related but they'redistinct.
The first is the GitLab forOpen Source program.
That's a program under whichqualifying Open Source projects
receive GitLab UltimateSubscriptions.
And I say qualifying becauseprojects need to meet certain
criteria to get that.
(32:44):
They need to be publiclyaccessible and open to
collaboration on GitLab.
They need to carry anOSI-approved Open Source license
where you follow the OSI, theOpen Source initiatives
definition of what constitutesan Open Source project, and they
need to be not for profit.
They need to becommunity-driven or
foundation-backed projects insome way.
And if projects meet thesecriteria then they can apply and
(33:06):
will review their eligibilityaccording to those criteria and
if they qualify, we will sendthem a subscription for the year
and they can renew again ifthey'd like.
So that's our way of ensuring ahealthy Open Source ecosystem
on GitLab but also giving backto the Open Source community.
That, of course, is the bedrockof our success as an open core
(33:26):
product and an Open Sourcemotivated company.
Now, the program you're askingafter is related to that, but
it's a little bit more exclusivethe GitLab Open Source Partners
Program.
This consists of about, I'd say, 25 high-profile, large-scale
Open Source communities thathave set up shop on GitLab and
(33:47):
are advancing the state of theOpen Source art using GitLab.
So partners you can think of askind of like our marquee Open
Source projects, these are theprojects that represent what's
possible for Open Sourcedevelopment at the cutting edge
of GitLab and at Open Source ingeneral.
So examples of these includemajor Linux distributions.
(34:07):
Partners include Debian, arch,fedora and major derivatives of
those like Mandaro and Kali.
Major desktop environments inthe Linux desktop ecosystem are
partners.
Gnomes, kde, xfce are allpartners, but not just computing
projects like that, but alsoscientific projects like the sqa
(34:29):
observatory, the squarekilometer observatory, of
scientific projects that arepartners, and of course, the
good docs project, which is adocumentation focus project and
we're not interested in justhaving, you know, your kind of
open source stalwarts the Linuxdistributions and the desktop
environments, but of course theyare still and always
(34:49):
functioning at the cutting edgeof open source development but
Trying to bring in partners withdifferent aims and purposes in
the open source ecosystems.
So it's a partnership programin so far as there's a great
deal of reciprocity inherent toit.
Partners receive certainbenefits for being partners,
like extended license you know,gratis subscription licenses, a
(35:11):
private service desk where theycan send issues that they might
be having a special space on getlab where they can raise issues
and open and then bug reportsand issue feature.
You know, requests that I canpass along to our team at get
lab.
Also opportunities to partnerwith us on some storytelling
opportunities or presentations,things like that.
(35:31):
So we hope that helps raisetheir profiles a bit and keeps
them thriving.
And in return, you know what weask is that they help us shine
a spotlight on their work byletting us interview them for
our YouTube channel, maybe cowriting tutorials with us or
case studies with us Aboutthings they're doing with get
lab.
You know, again, they'repushing the boundaries of what's
(35:52):
possible with get lab.
So we learn from them.
You know, not only via thefeedback of the open source
development cycle.
You know we learn from themwhen they're developing on get
lab and coming up againstboundaries that then we can help
help them overcome.
But Others can learn from themand hopefully, hopefully emulate
them.
You know they can ask themwhat's it like to be a A large
(36:12):
scale, successful open sourceproject and community on this
platform, and how can we emulateyour success?
You know, and again, partnerswe hope Can help each other by
forming a partner community.
Partners can help one anotherand learn from each other.
You know, managing a large scaleopen source project like a
Linux distribution is difficultwork, often thankless.
So it's nice to have alliesthat can assist you or share
(36:37):
their solutions or bestpractices or, again, even just
commiserate.
You know if they're having spamish, spam woes or, you know,
difficult code of conductsituations in their communities.
Whatever it might be To have acommunity of partners in your
space, in your sphere, for thatkind of support is important too
.
So that's what the partnersprogram is all about.
Of course, the good docs projectwas Recently invited and
(37:00):
graciously accepted theinvitation and it just been a
pleasure to work with and areally great partner in helping
demonstrate what's possible withget lab as a project management
tool.
I mean the way that you all useget lab to manage your releases,
and this is the article I'mworking on now with members of
your community is an explanationof how you just released your
(37:22):
first major Set of documentationusing the project management
tools on get lab.
It's just astounding, I mean,you know again marquee project,
shining example of what'spossible with the platform, and
so I could talk all day In youknow, fifty blog posts about how
great get lab is and whyeverybody should use it, and
(37:43):
what the great, what the bestfeatures are, etc.
Etc.
But I'd much rather help thegood docs project tell their
story about how they weresuccessful, because one people
are more likely to listen tothem than they are to me and to
their story is much more realthan anything I could invent for
a blog post.
I mean, here's a, here's astory of how you all actually
did it right, and so that's whatthat's where I get joy out of
(38:04):
running that program is helping,you know, raise the profile of
folks that are using get lab andshowing some real life examples
of how folks have beensuccessful using the tools.
Felicity Brand (38:12):
Yes, and it certainly has incentivized us to
start to push the boundaries ofhow we can use the platform and
even conversations we've hadinternally, you know, we might
normally do this a certain wayand then we think, well, hang on
, we should actually be usingget lab for this.
So let's, you know, let's tryand work this out using this
tool and then if we run intoproblems, we know that we can
(38:33):
speak with people, you know,raise an issue, whatever and
work with you to see.
If you know we want to do this,can we do that?
That's the interesting part.
We don't.
We don't have all day to talk.
Let's, let's wrap up.
We do have some standardquestions, Bryan.
Bryan Behrenshausen (38:49):
Okay, oh, yes, okay, this is the Okay all
right, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'mready for your, I'm ready for
the rapid fire.
Yeah, what's one kind ofcommunication you wish you could
do better.
Oh, visual communication.
For sure I can't draw my ownbreath.
I've always wished that I wasbetter at depicting things
visually.
It's just, I've never had thatskill.
Felicity Brand (39:12):
That is a good one.
Have you seen X Cali draw?
No, yeah, I'll send.
I'll show you the link.
It's a browser based graphicstool.
It's quite easy to use andsometimes it can make what you
draw look amazing.
So Fantastic.
Bryan Behrenshausen (39:25):
Yeah, I often think that I can.
I'm thinking that way,especially mapping ideas and
showing relationships betweenthings, but it's just difficult.
It's always been difficult forme to translate that stuff into
A visual medium.
You know, I see what people dowith charts and infographics and
All sorts of things like that.
I just I'm very envious, yeah.
Felicity Brand (39:44):
Who is a communicator who inspires you?
Bryan Behrenshausen (39:47):
Oh, I would say Isaac Asimov is my favorite
writer.
He was not only a prolificwriter wrote something like 500
books in his life or somethinglike that but he's just a master
explainer who writes in,especially in his nonfiction
work on science.
Science writing Writes withthis kind of clarity and
concision that I will alwaysenvy.
Felicity Brand (40:10):
Wow, you've inspired me.
I'll just go to the library andgrab one of these books.
You won't have trouble findinghim.
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:15):
I think he's the only author that has
one book in every section of theDewey Decimal System.
Felicity Brand (40:20):
Go to any spot in the library.
Yep Wow, that is a claim tofame.
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:23):
I will look that up, though, to be sure,
but I'm pretty sure that'scorrect, still correct, yeah.
We'll get our fact check ityeah right, right with your busy
staff and your busy time, thatyou know you're all the extra
time you have, sure, yeah.
Felicity Brand (40:36):
What is one thing you wish you knew about
open source when you weregetting started?
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:41):
I think that people are more willing to
help than I initially realized.
Right at first I was very timidabout asking for help and
reaching out to communitymembers on various channels,
even just to say thank you,because I sort of felt like an
imposter.
I sort of felt like I wasn'tsure if I was doing it right or
if that would be welcome or if Ihad the chops to do this or
(41:06):
that or say this or that.
But I think what I would tellmyself I could go back now was,
hey, people are more willing tohelp and listen.
Then then you realize, so justspeak up.
Felicity Brand (41:16):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Something I've noticed and Ishould like to get your take on
this don't ask for someone totell you what to do.
We get a lot of kind ofnewcomers who come in and say
I'm here, I'm interested.
Now what, what should?
I do and I'm thinking well, Imean, there's a list of issues.
Tell me which one excites you,you know.
Bryan Behrenshausen (41:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that as well and I
think it cuts both ways.
It definitely cuts both waysbecause I think I've seen that
and it's it's very empowering toinvite someone in and allow
them to do what they want to doright off the bat.
I also think it can beintimidating for newcomers.
Felicity Brand (41:58):
Especially if they're coming from a
traditional management structure.
Bryan Behrenshausen (42:01):
That's right, that's right, yep, yep.
And it can be intimidating.
They come in and they say Iwant to, I want to help you by
writing something Okay, great,here you go, here's a blank
sheet of paper, right, whateveryou want.
And sometimes you know you'redoing them a favor by not over
optimizing their experience, butby giving them some scaffolding
, whether it's in the form ofyou know, good first time, you
(42:23):
know.
Label good, good, first time youknow contribute your label on
your issues, or having themcontribute to something like a
template for their firstcontribution.
So they're reading the templateand improving it and then
improving the first timeexperience for others, you know,
giving them something a littlebit more concrete.
Now, if somebody wants toleapfrog over that and has a
clear way to make a contribution, sure you welcome that.
(42:44):
But you know also, you know asa, as a maintainer and a
community manager, being awarethat you know sometimes people
want to help and they don't mindhaving their hand held because
that's how they're going tolearn, yes, to get involved,
right.
Felicity Brand (42:58):
so yeah, yeah, indeed.
Now you work remote, as do I.
I think you've even recentlyrelocated.
So what is an important pieceof a concrete, what is an
important piece of equipment youneed for your home office?
Bryan Behrenshausen (43:09):
Oh man, well, that was that.
That's probably it.
I guess I would go by the orderin which I set things up in my
office, right?
So one of the first things Iset up was you can see behind me
, my, my, my, probably my mostimportant piece of equipment is
my vintage a chi cassette deckwhere I play my collection of
about 400 cassette tapes,because that's what I need to do
my work.
But if the, if the music's notgoing, my brain's not going.
(43:33):
So you know, if I'm here andI'm working, something's coming
out of those, those speakers.
So without any music, I thinkmy days would feel a lot longer,
and I think that if I had topick one piece of equipment that
I couldn't do without workingremotely, it'd be my stereo.
Felicity Brand (43:46):
Yeah, Wow, that is fantastic.
You know, I would imagine mostpeople just have Spotify running
through the computer.
But you are old school and Ihave music subscription services
.
Bryan Behrenshausen (43:58):
I listen to a lot of digital music, but I
like to buy my own music andmaintain a collection instead of
renting music, which you know Iunderstand works for some
people.
It's just not my style.
Felicity Brand (44:07):
This has been a fantastic conversation, Bryan.
Is there anything else that wethat you wanted to cover today
have we have.
We done it all.
Bryan Behrenshausen (44:15):
Oh well, I think.
Well, now I understand.
We could probably talk forhours, felicity, but let's just
leave it at.
I'll come back anytime, you'llhave me.
Felicity Brand (44:24):
Yeah, well, we'll have you back.
I'd love to hear more about theopen organization project.
So yeah, let's try and tee thatup.
So I guess nothing else remainsbut for me to say thank you
very much.
I've thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation.
I'll see you around.
Open Source.
Bryan Behrenshausen (44:39):
You bet I hope our paths cross again.
Thanks so much for theinterview and thanks so much for
having me on your great show.
Carl Richards (45:00):
We hope you enjoyed listening to Felicity's
Conversation with Bryan.
If you have questions, head onover to the show notes, where
you'll find all of Bryan'sinformation, and feel free to
reach out to us as well viaTwitter at
openunderscorestrategy, or emailhello at
openstrategypartnerscom.
This was one of the editorialcodes we use at OSP.
(45:21):
We'll be sharing more of themas we go.
If you'd like to learn more inthe meantime, come over to
openstrategypartnerscom, have alook at our writer enablement,
workshops, case study offeringor get in touch to talk about
your strategy or productcommunication needs.
Thanks to everyone whocontributed to this podcast all
(45:42):
the P's at OSP.
Thanks to our clients whobelieve in us.
Shout out to Patrick Gaumontfor our high energy maple syrup
flavored theme music and to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing, and our three
themes on the podcast.
You'll hear from differentmembers of the OSP team hosting
(46:04):
episodes over time.
Communicate all thingscommunication we share how we
tackle writing, editing, wordchoices, formats, processes and
more.
Connect in depth conversationswith interesting, smart people
about who they are, what they doand how they approach their
life and work as communicators,technologists and leaders.
(46:27):
Grow.
We cover strategic approachesto understanding and expressing
the value of what you do,including tools, templates and
practical applications.
We also feel strongly aboutbuilding a mindful, positive,
human first culture at work.
That's bound to pop up fromtime to time, too.
This podcast is us figuring outcommunication, connection and
(46:52):
growing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, applePodcast or the podcast channel
of your choice.
Follow us, suggest guests andtopics, ask us questions.
On social media, we are at OpenUnderscore Strategy on Twitter.
Until next time.
Thanks for listening toCommunicate, connect, grow.
(47:13):
See you next time.
Felicity Brand (47:45):
I'm going to go off script.
Okay, I just thought ofsomething that I wanted to talk
about.
Bryan Behrenshausen (47:52):
Do I need to do the interstitial for you
Like, don't you like it?
Are you going to change that,isn't that?
You get your little.
You can splice that in if youwant.
Do a clean take and then youswitch topics.
Felicity Brand (48:07):
Yeah, no, I don't think I can.
I'm not that smooth, Bryan, I'mnot that smooth.
Hi, I'm Carl from OSP and this is Communicate
Connect Grow, the OSP podcast.
At OSP, we do a lot of thinkingabout what makes for effective,
consistent communication.
In this podcast, we want toshow you how we translate
between technical complexity andbusiness value to create
strategic product communicationat OSP and we want to learn more
(00:29):
from you and our guests.
This episode is part of ourConnect series on the podcast.
Connect episodes are in-depthconversations with interesting,
smart people about who they are,what they do and how they
approach their life and work ascommunicators, technologists and
leaders.
Today, OSPea Felicity Brandsits down with from GitLab.
(01:08):
These two discover they arekindred spirits with a shared
love of writing and editing.
They chat about the importanceof non-code contributions in
open source, best practices whenyou're all remote and how fun
it can be to work asynchronously.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Felicity and Bryan.
Felicity Brand (01:26):
Hello everyone.
I am Felicity Brand, acommunications consultant at
Open Strategy Partners, andtoday I'm joined by , senior
Open Source Program Manager atGitLab.
Welcome, Bryan.
Bryan Behrenshausen (01:41):
Thanks so much.
You got my last name in one.
That's really impressive.
Thanks for having me on thepodcast.
Just thanks for doing thepodcast.
I have to say, since youinvited me, I've gone through
the back catalog, I've beenplowing through and it's just a
delight.
To be honest, it's a podcastI've been looking for for a long
time.
(02:01):
I'm just delighted that itexists.
Thank you.
Felicity Brand (02:04):
I'm glad to hear that they say write the book
you want to read and, I think,make the podcast you want to
hear.
Bryan Behrenshausen (02:12):
I wanted to hear it too.
Thank you very much.
It's really been a pleasure.
I had a long car ride a coupleof weeks ago.
Just queued up a bunch and havebeen enjoying them, thanks.
Felicity Brand (02:22):
Fantastic to hear.
This is the first time we'vespoken in person.
We met recently through TheGood Docs Project which is an
open source project I'm involvedwith that is creating best
practice documentation,templates for software and
communities.
The Good Docs was recentlyinvited to become a GitLab open
(02:43):
source partner, which is a majormilestone for the project.
We were delighted with that.
Bryan, I'm really happy to chatwith you today.
I suspect that we are kindredspirits.
We both like writing, editingand open source.
Can you tell us briefly aboutyour role at GitLab?
Bryan Behrenshausen (03:05):
Sure Happy to.
I am Senior Open Source ProgramManager at GitLab.
That is a role that's on ourdeveloper relations team, which
itself is embedded in themarketing organization.
All the various members of myteam operate at that interface
between GitLab, the company andthe wider GitLab community.
Naturally, because we're anopen core product, we're
(03:29):
supremely interested in thehealth and well-being of the
GitLab developer community.
My role, however, isn'tnecessarily to look after open
source contributions to GitLab.
I have teammates wonderfulteammates in contributor success
who do that work Notcontributions to GitLab, but
(03:50):
it's more focused on open sourcecontributions on GitLab.
My role is focused on reallyassisting and empowering the
open source projects that chooseto develop on and with GitLab.
Make sure they have what theyneed in order to succeed to
shine a spotlight on the greatopen source work that occurs on
(04:11):
and with GitLab.
I run a few programs as part ofthat remit, but it seems to me
that we're going to probably getinto those a little bit later.
I'll withhold my elaboration tothem, but that's my role at
GitLab.
Felicity Brand (04:21):
That sounds like a many and varied role.
Very interesting.
I'm sure that keeps you on yourtoes.
Bryan Behrenshausen (04:27):
Yes, it does.
Felicity Brand (04:28):
I'm curious to hear about your journey to open
source, but first I wanted toshare my story.
I came to open source asrecently as four years ago.
Two things happened at the sametime.
I did the Google season of docstheir inaugural program in 2019
, and I joined Open StrategyPartners.
(04:50):
Around the same time.
I was involved at theco-founding of The Good Docs
Project.
There was this confluence ofevents.
Prior to that, I had spent mycareer as a tech writer in
working for software companies.
What I discovered, or what Iworking with open source helped
me discover in my adult life, isthat I am intrinsically
(05:11):
motivated.
I would always come to work inmy traditional companies,
assuming that everyone else hadthe same motivation as me.
I was always surprised when Ifound out that actually no, they
were coming to work becausethey needed a pay check, they
needed to pay the bills.
I was always interested in thesuccess of building the thing or
(05:34):
getting something off theground.
Open source was a realeye-opener for me because what I
found was people were coming toa project to build something.
Everyone was interested inseeing it succeed.
We're all volunteering our time, so you're kind of rubbing
shoulders with people who aregood at what they do.
They're interested in thesuccess of a thing and that's
(05:56):
the way I love to work.
Obviously that is a bit rosyLike I'm sure there are horror
stories out there in open source, but that's why I feel so
privileged today to work in opensource with open strategy
partners.
We have a lot of open sourceclients.
I spend my time in other opensource projects.
TYPO 3 is a large open sourceCMS and obviously The Good Docs
(06:20):
Project.
So that's my happy story.
But, Bryan, I know you've beeninvolved with open source a lot
longer than that, so please tellme what was your first
interaction with open source.
Bryan Behrenshausen (06:31):
Yeah, well, I'm happy to.
But first I just want tocomment on that and say welcome
and second say you know, I knowwe're going to talk about
contributions to open sourcethat are not development focused
in a little while at least, Ibelieve we will.
I just want to say, you know,that's why recognizing those
contributions is important,because there are many you know
felicities in the world who havethis intrinsic sense of
(06:52):
motivation, a strong orientationtoward community, and they are
the stuff that open sourceprojects are made of.
Right, they might not do thespecific kind of work that you
know we have historicallyrecognized in open source, but
they are the type of people thatnot only thrive in open source
work but also make open sourceprojects thrive.
(07:12):
This is why I'm glad that we're, you know, we're having this
conversation about, about thosepractices.
But anyway, I just wanted toremark on that as a prelude to,
perhaps you know, what we'lldiscuss later.
So I'm happy to tell you aboutmy history in open source, and
that is starts in 2007, late2007, when I purchased what at
the time was my first netbook.
(07:32):
Do you have one of these, oneof these netbook computers?
It was like a very small, thelow spec notebook computers that
were focused on portability,right, it was a product category
that was super hot for a burn astar that burned super bright,
super quickly.
They don't make them muchanymore.
They were low, these kind oflow spec notebook computers, and
I had what was widelyconsidered the first model, the
(07:55):
EEPC or the EPC 701.
And that was running a Linuxdistribution called Zandross, a
custom Linux distribution calledZandross Linux, which was based
on Debian, and that was myfirst exposure to mainstream
desktop consumer facing opensource software in general.
I mean, of course, you know,like like most people, I've been
using open source software foryears because I've been using
(08:16):
the internet and the internet isbuilt on open source software,
so I've been using open sourcesoftware.
But I mean my first exposure to,you know, desktop consumer
facing open source software.
It was in 2007.
And of course, you know, soonenough I ran up against the
limitations of that machine andstarted poking around with it.
And because it's it's opensource and because it's Linux,
you can poke around a lotfurther than you can with other
(08:37):
tools and I learned how toaccess the command line, and
then I learned how to run aptand app get, and then the rest
is sort of history, right.
So all that, though I will sayI never learned how to develop
software.
You know, from the verybeginning of my history with my
history with computers, you know, sitting up in my grandfather's
study playing around on hisCommodore 64 and learning how to
(08:57):
make it work, you know, I never.
I never had an interest inprogramming.
But since that initialencounter with Zandross I've
come to care really deeply aboutissues surrounding free and
open source software, digitalrights etc.
And like so many people, Iguess I came for the technology
but I stayed for the philosophy,you know, when it comes to open
source and free software.
(09:18):
So I've been into open sourcesoftware as a user and an
advocate for a long time.
But I got my first internship inopen source at Red Hat in 2011,
when I was also doing my PhD incommunication studies in North
Carolina, and it's experienceyou know about which I think I'm
still pinching myself to thisday really like an analogy for
those of us here in the States,I guess, would be you know, it's
(09:40):
like saying you got intobaseball and then you got
drafted by the Yankees right outof you know, as soon as you got
into baseball, like it's justyou know, it's like you go.
I worked at Red Hat for 12years and it was like you know,
playing at the epicenter of opensource work, working with the
best of the best in the field,from day one, like it was just a
magical experience, right.
So in that 12 years at Red Hat,I was an intern, I worked and
(10:04):
then was hired full time after Ifinished my degree, but I
worked on the brand team and incorporate marketing and in
public relations and in the opensource program office and a
bunch of different roles there,but in all those roles I
essentially wrote and edited andserved as a community manager
in some way or another.
So Kindred Spirits, felicity,yes, as you said.
Yeah in 2021, I joined GitLabto help grow open source
(10:25):
programs as part of developerrelations.
And now I'm talking to you.
Felicity Brand (10:29):
Wow, that sounds like a dream.
Bryan Behrenshausen (10:31):
It has been .
Felicity Brand (10:32):
Well, so let's talk about non code
contributions.
Like you, I am not a softwaredeveloper.
I've worked developer adjacentfor my career as a technical
writer.
I recognized that I hadsomething to offer open source
communities, I suppose because Iknow that software projects are
so much more than just the code.
Sure, you can open source yourcode, but there has to be kind
(10:57):
of an ecosystem around that, andso wherever there is code,
there is going to need to be atech writer in my view.
So that's why I kind of thought, well, of course there's a
space for me here, of course Ihave something to offer, and
what I've seen in my time.
So over those four years, I'veseen more and more technical
writers, ux designers, productowners, people kind of flocking
(11:17):
to open source projects andproducts, looking to either give
back or just to get experiencefor their portfolio, something
like that.
So let's talk about theimportance of non code
contributions.
Bryan Behrenshausen (11:28):
Yeah, the subject that's near and dear to
my heart because it's as I saidpreviously, it's where I sit and
where I've always sat.
When I started getting involvedin open source as more than
just a user, I volunteered withdocumentation projects, worked
on the Ubuntu manual project atthe time because I knew that.
I knew that I couldn'tcontribute a lick of code, but I
knew I could help brush up somedocumentation.
(11:50):
I could write a user manual andthings like that.
So I've always felt like avalued and important member of
the open source ecosystemwithout contributing a line of
code.
I think it did make my firstcode contribution a year or two
ago when I changed the text on abutton.
I think that counts right.
Like I'm pretty sure that I wasdigging around in somebody's
(12:10):
like Python file, so I'm prettysure you know that counts.
Felicity Brand (12:13):
Yeah, I think so , and have you noticed so in
your time?
From 2007, have you noticed ashift or a change in terms of
valuing contributions?
That are code.
Bryan Behrenshausen (12:23):
I really have, yeah, and it's been a
welcome and refreshing change.
And the first thing I'll say isthat what I'm seeing is
something that I welcome, whichis the erosion or sort of the
erasure of the code non-codedistinction right applied to the
field of open sourcecontributions.
Right, that's really yeah, itonly really serves to reify code
(12:44):
contributions as a kind of aprivileged site or a privileged
class of contribution by markingit, you know, linguistically,
as the dominant and theneverything else is not that
right.
But like.
So what you're saying isessentially there's code and
non-code contributions and theother codes are.
The other contributions arejust as you know.
But I prefer to just talk aboutopen source contributions, you
know, and development is one anddocumentation is one, and so I
(13:06):
try to avoid the code non-codedistinction as a way of reifying
the code as dominant form ofcontribution.
Felicity Brand (13:12):
But I like that idea and I think it is reflected
in projects contributionguidelines.
So often projects will have adocument which outlines how they
want people to contribute totheir project, and sometimes you
will see kind of a split.
This is how you do a codecontribution, but it's great if
(13:32):
you can bring them all togetherin one.
Bryan Behrenshausen (13:35):
I think that projects that are really
mature and thoughtful aboutthese things work on various
contributor pathways.
So they start with the user orthe contributor, rather, and
they start with thatcontributor's passion and that
contributor's skill set and theybuild contributor pathways that
optimize for that contributor'sparticular background and
skills and channel them intoaspects of the project that
(14:00):
would benefit from those skillsand passions.
So along with that, anotherthing that I'm seeing that I
think is really encouraging isthe gradual, I think, inclusion
of more I don't know aheterogeneous variety of
open-source related activitiesin a project's reward mechanisms
.
The projects have a pointsystem or a leaderboard.
(14:21):
They're increasingly includingmore types of contribution
activities in their formalrecognition systems.
So they're tracking.
The top contributor to this Xproject this month is counting
more than just lines of codecontributed.
It's other things.
So, including those things intheir reward mechanisms show how
(14:44):
they value those contributionsbut also incentivize for them,
so welcome to your talk.
Felicity Brand (14:49):
Yeah, I'm really interested in that as a
non-code contributor.
So I work in the content teamof Type-O3 and I'm always
recognized for content that wepublish.
I'll get a little shout out onthose.
I've also seen talk of projectstrying to implement like a Kudo
system or a point system to, asyou say, recognize things that
(15:10):
aren't necessarily an approvedmerge request into the code base
.
That does contribute to theoverall health of the community
and the project.
I've seen some really goodcontributor guidelines out there
.
One that comes to mind that Ireally enjoy is Symphony.
What I really like about aparticular page I'm thinking of
in their guideline is they giveexamples for how to write in
(15:35):
terms of the language they wantpeople to use in their issue
requests, in their mergerequests.
So I'm not talking about atemplate like a merge request
template.
I'm talking about if you'redoing a review of a pool request
.
They give examples of thelanguage to use when giving
feedback and basically it'sabout respect.
So they're trying to build arespectful community and
(15:57):
contributor guidelines, you getbonus points.
You can just say we wanteveryone to be respectful, but
if you give examples for thelanguage for people, to use.
It just goes so much further.
So have you seen some goodexamples in your time?
Bryan Behrenshausen (16:11):
I mean, I'm sure I have, but of course I
can't think of anything off thetop.
My head is specific, I know.
But I know exactly what you'retalking about and I'll just say
a general comment on that.
I will say, first, I agree withyou and I think it's great to
bring that up.
And second of all, I will saythis is why I hesitate a little
bit at folks who say, like allyou need for a code of conduct
is a statement that says be kindto each other or be excellent
(16:34):
to one another.
I think that's a nice sentimentand I really do truly believe
folks that put those things intheir codes of conduct are
coming from the right place.
But I believe it's not enough.
I mean, what does that looklike?
What does that feel like forour community?
Likewise, where folks aresaying things like we need to be
more thoughtful about bringingin how we treat newcomers and
how we engage, great, show mewhat that feels like.
(16:56):
And it's the same way withremote working practices, which
we may talk about at some pointtoo, where folks are saying we
need to be thoughtful with eachother and hold each other
accountable, they like to say,for following these practices.
But what does that sound like?
Give me a sense of what thatlooks and sounds like so that I
understand that I can bringsomething up, raise something,
(17:18):
say something in a way that'salmost kind of sanctioned by the
community, so that I don't feellike I'm new and I'm sticking
my nose in and I'm going toruffle any feathers.
It's okay to say that's not howwe talk to each other here,
right, and put that in yourdocumentation, right?
Or something like sanction yourinterjections.
I guess you know what I mean.
So I know I totally get whatyou're saying.
(17:39):
I wish I had a great example ofa project that did like you do,
but there are plenty out there.
Felicity Brand (17:43):
Yeah, I really you're such a professional,
Bryan, because that was a greatsegue into talking about remote
work, so I know.
Bryan Behrenshausen (17:50):
Oh, great Sorry.
Felicity Brand (17:53):
So GitLab are a remote first company, the true
to say yes, and we are famouslyall remote, I should say.
Bryan Behrenshausen (18:00):
And I can start to talk.
It's hard to track these things, but we do believe we're the
world's largest all remoteorganization, at around 2,000
people headcount.
Felicity Brand (18:10):
Open strategy partners are also all remote.
We do have headquarters inCologne, germany, but let's talk
about remote work.
So over 2,000 employees.
Does it work, and what sort ofpractices and processes do you
have in place to help set you upfor success?
Bryan Behrenshausen (18:29):
Yeah.
So I think whether it works is apractical matter that's
different for everyone.
I will say that our success asan organization like Lee speaks
for itself and the success ofour model, our operating model
which we'll get to in a second,I'll talk about more in a second
and we have a lot of practicesthat I think have set industry
(18:49):
benchmarks in terms of remotework, our handbook being one of
them, is probably one of themost famous or most easily
observable artifacts of ourculture, which is our, the
GitLab handbook, which isnotoriously open Open by default
.
I can say that whether or notthat works I don't know, but it
works for me because I findworking at GitLab is infinitely
(19:10):
easier when that is the case,when the handbook is open, and I
can say that it makes workingwith the GitLab community a lot
easier.
Infinitely easier as well,because when I need to explain
why something is the case or dueto a GitLab policy or procedure
, I can simply link to it.
If a community member says ohwell, it's our policy and here's
(19:34):
the policy, the same documentthat everybody at GitLab is
using.
So that's why we talk aboutGitLab team members and the
wider GitLab community.
We try to erode thatdistinction as possible.
We also don't ignore thedistinction Like yes, there are
folks who are GitLab teammembers and there are folks that
are part of the community.
But we try to embrace all.
And also, I'll just say as anaside, the handbook made
(19:56):
interviewing at GitLab so mucheasier and less stressful
because I could read the entireinterview process, even some
potential interview questions,in the handbook.
That included, by the way,accessing the salary calculator
to begin getting a sense of whatmy salary range would be if
GitLab made me an offer for ajob.
So that is open and transparent.
(20:18):
It gets labbed to as much aspossible, to the greatest extent
possible so again, these aresome of the benefits that I've
seen, not to say nothing of theday in and day out work a day
benefits of working according toour operating model, which we
call T-Maps.
Felicity Brand (20:36):
Yeah, so give me a sense of your, as you say,
your day to day, like what sortof tools are you using to
interact with people and get onwith it?
Bryan Behrenshausen (20:45):
Yeah, so we are a GitLab-first organization
.
So the policy and the spirit isuse GitLab first whenever
possible.
Even maybe when it's not quitepossible, make it possible,
because that's what pushesGitLab forward.
So I'm on GitLab, I would say,90% of my day.
(21:05):
That's especially true workingin the particular role that I
have where I'm interacting withopen source communities on
GitLab.
I just need to be on theplatform.
But one of the reasons I wantedto work at GitLab is just
because I love the tool and Iwanted to not only help make it
better but use it more.
So I certainly use it now and Ilove it.
(21:26):
So most of my days is spent onGitLab.
But of course, we have our toolchain, like everybody else.
We have a messenger, we useSlack.
But some interesting thingsabout Slack is we have some
policies around using privatemessages.
I don't know where this istracked, but I believe that
(21:48):
administrators are able to seethe percentage of messages that
go to channels and messages thatgo to DMs and raise some
warnings if there's too muchprivate communication.
Felicity Brand (21:57):
Right, so that's folding into your open ethos
Approach.
I imagine that, right.
Yeah, channel communicationchannel by default.
Bryan Behrenshausen (22:05):
Yeah, channel by default and EMS as a
last resort, or private messageas a last resort or if it's
something sensitive.
You know it's a people issue.
Where there's a you know youhave to share a private you know
bit of information or something.
Obviously you know there arealways cases, but the more often
than not you don't need to dothat.
Somebody could benefit fromwhat you're saying and what
you're doing if you posted inyour team's channel, so the
(22:27):
ideas you go there.
We also delete our slackhistory after 90 days.
So, yeah, things don't live inslack after 90 days and that's
Deliberately disincentive eyes.
Using slack as a source oftruth for anything, yes, yes, I
love that.
Felicity Brand (22:41):
Yeah, what if you want to blow off steam or
just have some leisure time?
Bryan Behrenshausen (22:47):
I imagine you have channels for jokes and
there's gif channels, there's anall caps channel, there's a.
You know, I'm in Legos, I'm inthe all caps, I'm in the yeah
yeah, yeah.
That's, that's to go in, andjust you know.
And there are channels fordifferent localities.
Again, we're all remote, butget lab team members love
getting together in person.
(23:07):
So there are remote.
There are location basedchannels where if something's
going on in your, your town oryour neighborhood or city or
your region, you can post andtalk in there and people meet up
and post pictures in there oftheir work, co-working days and
stuff.
So All those channels exist aswell.
Felicity Brand (23:23):
Sure, absolutely do you have an onboarding
process to teach new employees,the remote first?
Bryan Behrenshausen (23:31):
approach.
Yes, it's quite intimidating,to be honest.
It's voluminous because itinvolves a lot of self directed
work.
It takes up the onboardingprocess at get lab.
Takes about a month to complete.
That's by recommendation, isabout a month, takes about four
weeks.
When you join get lab, yourassigned an issue, that is your
onboarding issue.
That has several.
I think it's now about ahundred and thirty seven thing.
(23:55):
Don't quote me on that because Ispent a while since I looked at
it, but when I lasted it it wasover a hundred items that you
must complete and those areeverything from you know day one
Lockdown your security stuff,make sure your info, sex stuff
is is is tight.
So you do that first, all theway up to hey, look, here's your
tutorial on, if you'reunfamiliar with it.
Here's how to make, here's howto Make a get commit and here's
(24:17):
how to do a merger quest on getlab right, which are survival
skills right?
So it takes about a month, it'sseveral, you know it's over a
hundred, more than a hundreditems long and it's mostly self
directed work because everythingat get lab Is more than
thoroughly documented and ifit's not documented to get lab
likely doesn't exist.
So means you gotta be ready todo a lot of reading and a lot of
(24:39):
asynchronous video tutorialsand things like that during your
first four weeks of work.
Felicity Brand (24:45):
I'm asynchronous to.
Bryan Behrenshausen (24:46):
I'm in Melbourne, australia, but most
of my team are in the northernhemisphere, so the cobblers elf,
as they say yeah, I think it'sthe perfect, which I think it's
the perfect story, because Iwould say that that is also one
of my very favorite benefits ofworking for a distributed
organization in asynchronous wayis that sort of Cross
(25:07):
hemisphere, cross time zone, buton pass of the day, right, and
just the idea that you know thework is like this 24 hour
continuous stream and your workday is sort of where you choose
to plug into that stream, rideit and then pull out at the end,
like you jack into the matrixwhen you need to.
Then you like do your and youpull out.
You know it could be, it couldbe any, you know any, any moment
(25:29):
in your day or whatever.
But Working in an asynchronousway with a distributed team
makes all kinds of things thatweren't formally possible.
Again, I understand it's notfor everybody, but for me it
just clicks with how I live andhow I think and how I work.
So yeah.
I cross the time zones that Ican hand stuff off to and then
likewise wake up and see allthis cool stuff they've done and
(25:49):
take the baton from them andpush it along while they're
spending time with their familyand having dinner and go, you
know, sleeping, and Go to thegym or whatever.
That is a thrill for me to yeah, I totally hear what you're
saying.
Felicity Brand (26:01):
Just another aspect in which we are kindred
spirits.
So I want to ask you about Teamops, your distributed
asynchronous operating modelyeah yeah, I just wanted to add
on to that.
I also feel that joy of beingasynchronous, and when I started
at open strategy partners, ittook a little while for us to
work out, but Once we realize wecould use it to our advantage,
(26:22):
my colleagues would writesomething.
It would come into my queue.
I'd wake up, I would review it,mark it up with feedback, send
it back.
That wake up.
Oh, you know, it's just thenext day and how.
Now I can give it to the client.
So that is as you say.
It's.
It's a.
You get a thrill when you knowthat you are Adding value, like
you're helping someone.
(26:42):
Yes, move a piece along.
Bryan Behrenshausen (26:45):
Kindred spirits, again.
That is what that's.
What motivates me to do my workis when I know I'm being of use
to someone, or helpful tosomeone, or or in live in their
work or enriching their work,and likewise when people do that
for me.
Right, that's why I like opensource and that's why I like
working in this highlycollaborative, distributed way,
right, yeah, for sure?
Felicity Brand (27:04):
so tell us about team ops.
What is that all about?
Bryan Behrenshausen (27:07):
Yeah, so.
So team ops is anorganizational operating model
that is really, I think, thecrystal crystalization of Get
labs way of working.
The get lab way of working thatwe've sort of refined over the
years are best practices.
Working all remote are thingsthat people often ask us about.
They often ask our CEO about,they often ask lots of get lab
(27:29):
employees about, and so they'redocumented.
But team ops is our way to sortof operationalize those things
right to build to program tiesthem in a way that Makes them
not only like graspable andnoble and repeatable for other
organizations, but also possibleright that actually holds us
accountable to say like no,really, what are you doing?
And like, if you had to explainthis is somebody, how would you
(27:51):
do it?
And so it's our way of sharingbest practices for working in a
distributed way, highdistributed way, asynchronous
way with the world at get lab.
Another hat that I hold is I'ma certified team ops trainer, so
I train other get lab teammembers, new folks, on the kind
of the tenants of team ops, andalso we work with external
(28:13):
customers as well who Againwanna bring team ops to their
team or understand that the waythat their team is working needs
to change or maybe has beenforced to change by events like
I don't know, like a globalpandemic or something like on
fat mobile, like that, where thethings like change radically
and you have to Adapt your wayof working.
You know we have a tool set,you know, culture and value
(28:37):
based tool set that helps yourorganization operationalize
these sort of more abstractprinciples about the heart of
this remote work model one ofthe downsides of being a sink is
you can feel a bit lonely.
Felicity Brand (28:52):
Well, I can.
I'm lucky at certain times ofthe year.
The time zones shift, you know,we have daylight savings, and
so I do get some crossover inthe early morning and in the
evening, and so that is just apart of my job, that I'll take
meetings after dinner.
Yeah, I really enjoy gettingface time.
I just wanted to tell you aboutone thing that we have at OSP
(29:15):
that helps us feel stayconnected as a team.
So we have a weekly teammeeting that gets recorded and I
watch it the next day becauseit happens at my 2am.
After a while I realized well,every I get to see everyone, but
people don't get to see me, andso what we do now is before the
(29:36):
meeting in my daytime.
I will join the meeting.
It's a Google Meet and I canpress record.
I'll record a two-minute updateand then, when the rest of the
team join the meeting, they playmy update, so everyone gets to
see me.
Bryan Behrenshausen (29:49):
That's great, yes, perfect.
Felicity Brand (29:51):
And then when I view the meeting I see everyone
in the team watching me.
Yeah, it gets a bit better, butthat has gone a long way to
help us feel together and justgetting that FaceTime is really
beneficial.
Bryan Behrenshausen (30:02):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That's a lovely practice andmakes you feel included and
helps the rest of the team notonly feel your presence as a
team member, but also appreciateyour contributions more because
you're there talking about itand telling them about it.
Felicity Brand (30:18):
That's right, that's right.
So yeah, it is, but, as you say, it's not for everyone.
Some people may really struggle.
If they didn't have you canstill be distributed.
But if you're at leastsynchronous, that goes a long
way to helping you feelconnected.
Bryan Behrenshausen (30:33):
So yeah, yeah, and I would say that
things like operational modelslike team ops are optimized for
asynchronous, but they don'tpreclude synchronous
interactions.
In fact, what they do is theyalso optimize those synchronous
opportunities as well.
So, for example, at GitLab, it'ssort of taboo to have a meeting
(30:54):
where you're reading outwithout any discussion for 40
minutes or even five minutes.
Five minutes is probably themax, but the idea is, if you're
going to have a meeting that andyou're going to have it
synchronously, you want thebenefits that come with having a
synchronous interactionalpossibilities.
So if I'm going to read outslides for 45 minutes, I'll
(31:14):
record that, send them beforethe meeting, everybody watch
that and then I spend my 30minutes with everybody, not
going over it again, but havinga discussion about that.
I mean, because that's whatthat's the benefit of having
everybody there right Is thatthey can get their feedback, not
so they can sit and listen tome in a time zone of my choosing
at a time of day of my choosing, so that I can get their
(31:34):
feedback.
So again, models like team opsdon't preclude synchronous
interactions, but they dooptimize for them in ways that
for some might feel like they'redownplaying synchronous, but
not really.
Felicity Brand (31:45):
Yes, Well, everyone's time is important and
we should all value eachother's time.
Let's talk about oh OK, We'vegot two topics I can't choose,
so I was going to ask you aboutthe GitLab Open Source Partners
program and we should talk aboutthat, but then I also do want
to talk to you about the OpenOrganization Project.
(32:05):
So, Bryan, our paths crossedbecause the Open Source Project
I'm involved with, The Good DocsProject, was recently invited
to be a GitLab Open SourcePartner.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout that program and what it's
all about?
Bryan Behrenshausen (32:23):
Absolutely can.
So I'll back up a little bitand just say that there are two
programs that are relevant herethat I manage at GitLab.
They're related but they'redistinct.
The first is the GitLab forOpen Source program.
That's a program under whichqualifying Open Source projects
receive GitLab UltimateSubscriptions.
And I say qualifying becauseprojects need to meet certain
criteria to get that.
(32:44):
They need to be publiclyaccessible and open to
collaboration on GitLab.
They need to carry anOSI-approved Open Source license
where you follow the OSI, theOpen Source initiatives
definition of what constitutesan Open Source project, and they
need to be not for profit.
They need to becommunity-driven or
foundation-backed projects insome way.
And if projects meet thesecriteria then they can apply and
(33:06):
will review their eligibilityaccording to those criteria and
if they qualify, we will sendthem a subscription for the year
and they can renew again ifthey'd like.
So that's our way of ensuring ahealthy Open Source ecosystem
on GitLab but also giving backto the Open Source community.
That, of course, is the bedrockof our success as an open core
(33:26):
product and an Open Sourcemotivated company.
Now, the program you're askingafter is related to that, but
it's a little bit more exclusivethe GitLab Open Source Partners
Program.
This consists of about, I'd say, 25 high-profile, large-scale
Open Source communities thathave set up shop on GitLab and
(33:47):
are advancing the state of theOpen Source art using GitLab.
So partners you can think of askind of like our marquee Open
Source projects, these are theprojects that represent what's
possible for Open Sourcedevelopment at the cutting edge
of GitLab and at Open Source ingeneral.
So examples of these includemajor Linux distributions.
(34:07):
Partners include Debian, arch,fedora and major derivatives of
those like Mandaro and Kali.
Major desktop environments inthe Linux desktop ecosystem are
partners.
Gnomes, kde, xfce are allpartners, but not just computing
projects like that, but alsoscientific projects like the sqa
(34:29):
observatory, the squarekilometer observatory, of
scientific projects that arepartners, and of course, the
good docs project, which is adocumentation focus project and
we're not interested in justhaving, you know, your kind of
open source stalwarts the Linuxdistributions and the desktop
environments, but of course theyare still and always
(34:49):
functioning at the cutting edgeof open source development but
Trying to bring in partners withdifferent aims and purposes in
the open source ecosystems.
So it's a partnership programin so far as there's a great
deal of reciprocity inherent toit.
Partners receive certainbenefits for being partners,
like extended license you know,gratis subscription licenses, a
(35:11):
private service desk where theycan send issues that they might
be having a special space on getlab where they can raise issues
and open and then bug reportsand issue feature.
You know, requests that I canpass along to our team at get
lab.
Also opportunities to partnerwith us on some storytelling
opportunities or presentations,things like that.
(35:31):
So we hope that helps raisetheir profiles a bit and keeps
them thriving.
And in return, you know what weask is that they help us shine
a spotlight on their work byletting us interview them for
our YouTube channel, maybe cowriting tutorials with us or
case studies with us Aboutthings they're doing with get
lab.
You know, again, they'repushing the boundaries of what's
(35:52):
possible with get lab.
So we learn from them.
You know, not only via thefeedback of the open source
development cycle.
You know we learn from themwhen they're developing on get
lab and coming up againstboundaries that then we can help
help them overcome.
But Others can learn from themand hopefully, hopefully emulate
them.
You know they can ask themwhat's it like to be a A large
(36:12):
scale, successful open sourceproject and community on this
platform, and how can we emulateyour success?
You know, and again, partnerswe hope Can help each other by
forming a partner community.
Partners can help one anotherand learn from each other.
You know, managing a large scaleopen source project like a
Linux distribution is difficultwork, often thankless.
So it's nice to have alliesthat can assist you or share
(36:37):
their solutions or bestpractices or, again, even just
commiserate.
You know if they're having spamish, spam woes or, you know,
difficult code of conductsituations in their communities.
Whatever it might be To have acommunity of partners in your
space, in your sphere, for thatkind of support is important too
.
So that's what the partnersprogram is all about.
Of course, the good docs projectwas Recently invited and
(37:00):
graciously accepted theinvitation and it just been a
pleasure to work with and areally great partner in helping
demonstrate what's possible withget lab as a project management
tool.
I mean the way that you all useget lab to manage your releases,
and this is the article I'mworking on now with members of
your community is an explanationof how you just released your
(37:22):
first major Set of documentationusing the project management
tools on get lab.
It's just astounding, I mean,you know again marquee project,
shining example of what'spossible with the platform, and
so I could talk all day In youknow, fifty blog posts about how
great get lab is and whyeverybody should use it, and
(37:43):
what the great, what the bestfeatures are, etc.
Etc.
But I'd much rather help thegood docs project tell their
story about how they weresuccessful, because one people
are more likely to listen tothem than they are to me and to
their story is much more realthan anything I could invent for
a blog post.
I mean, here's a, here's astory of how you all actually
did it right, and so that's whatthat's where I get joy out of
(38:04):
running that program is helping,you know, raise the profile of
folks that are using get lab andshowing some real life examples
of how folks have beensuccessful using the tools.
Felicity Brand (38:12):
Yes, and it certainly has incentivized us to
start to push the boundaries ofhow we can use the platform and
even conversations we've hadinternally, you know, we might
normally do this a certain wayand then we think, well, hang on
, we should actually be usingget lab for this.
So let's, you know, let's tryand work this out using this
tool and then if we run intoproblems, we know that we can
(38:33):
speak with people, you know,raise an issue, whatever and
work with you to see.
If you know we want to do this,can we do that?
That's the interesting part.
We don't.
We don't have all day to talk.
Let's, let's wrap up.
We do have some standardquestions, Bryan.
Bryan Behrenshausen (38:49):
Okay, oh, yes, okay, this is the Okay all
right, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'mready for your, I'm ready for
the rapid fire.
Yeah, what's one kind ofcommunication you wish you could
do better.
Oh, visual communication.
For sure I can't draw my ownbreath.
I've always wished that I wasbetter at depicting things
visually.
It's just, I've never had thatskill.
Felicity Brand (39:12):
That is a good one.
Have you seen X Cali draw?
No, yeah, I'll send.
I'll show you the link.
It's a browser based graphicstool.
It's quite easy to use andsometimes it can make what you
draw look amazing.
So Fantastic.
Bryan Behrenshausen (39:25):
Yeah, I often think that I can.
I'm thinking that way,especially mapping ideas and
showing relationships betweenthings, but it's just difficult.
It's always been difficult forme to translate that stuff into
A visual medium.
You know, I see what people dowith charts and infographics and
All sorts of things like that.
I just I'm very envious, yeah.
Felicity Brand (39:44):
Who is a communicator who inspires you?
Bryan Behrenshausen (39:47):
Oh, I would say Isaac Asimov is my favorite
writer.
He was not only a prolificwriter wrote something like 500
books in his life or somethinglike that but he's just a master
explainer who writes in,especially in his nonfiction
work on science.
Science writing Writes withthis kind of clarity and
concision that I will alwaysenvy.
Felicity Brand (40:10):
Wow, you've inspired me.
I'll just go to the library andgrab one of these books.
You won't have trouble findinghim.
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:15):
I think he's the only author that has
one book in every section of theDewey Decimal System.
Felicity Brand (40:20):
Go to any spot in the library.
Yep Wow, that is a claim tofame.
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:23):
I will look that up, though, to be sure,
but I'm pretty sure that'scorrect, still correct, yeah.
We'll get our fact check ityeah right, right with your busy
staff and your busy time, thatyou know you're all the extra
time you have, sure, yeah.
Felicity Brand (40:36):
What is one thing you wish you knew about
open source when you weregetting started?
Bryan Behrenshausen (40:41):
I think that people are more willing to
help than I initially realized.
Right at first I was very timidabout asking for help and
reaching out to communitymembers on various channels,
even just to say thank you,because I sort of felt like an
imposter.
I sort of felt like I wasn'tsure if I was doing it right or
if that would be welcome or if Ihad the chops to do this or
(41:06):
that or say this or that.
But I think what I would tellmyself I could go back now was,
hey, people are more willing tohelp and listen.
Then then you realize, so justspeak up.
Felicity Brand (41:16):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Something I've noticed and Ishould like to get your take on
this don't ask for someone totell you what to do.
We get a lot of kind ofnewcomers who come in and say
I'm here, I'm interested.
Now what, what should?
I do and I'm thinking well, Imean, there's a list of issues.
Tell me which one excites you,you know.
Bryan Behrenshausen (41:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that as well and I
think it cuts both ways.
It definitely cuts both waysbecause I think I've seen that
and it's it's very empowering toinvite someone in and allow
them to do what they want to doright off the bat.
I also think it can beintimidating for newcomers.
Felicity Brand (41:58):
Especially if they're coming from a
traditional management structure.
Bryan Behrenshausen (42:01):
That's right, that's right, yep, yep.
And it can be intimidating.
They come in and they say Iwant to, I want to help you by
writing something Okay, great,here you go, here's a blank
sheet of paper, right, whateveryou want.
And sometimes you know you'redoing them a favor by not over
optimizing their experience, butby giving them some scaffolding
, whether it's in the form ofyou know, good first time, you
(42:23):
know.
Label good, good, first time youknow contribute your label on
your issues, or having themcontribute to something like a
template for their firstcontribution.
So they're reading the templateand improving it and then
improving the first timeexperience for others, you know,
giving them something a littlebit more concrete.
Now, if somebody wants toleapfrog over that and has a
clear way to make a contribution, sure you welcome that.
(42:44):
But you know also, you know asa, as a maintainer and a
community manager, being awarethat you know sometimes people
want to help and they don't mindhaving their hand held because
that's how they're going tolearn, yes, to get involved,
right.
Felicity Brand (42:58):
so yeah, yeah, indeed.
Now you work remote, as do I.
I think you've even recentlyrelocated.
So what is an important pieceof a concrete, what is an
important piece of equipment youneed for your home office?
Bryan Behrenshausen (43:09):
Oh man, well, that was that.
That's probably it.
I guess I would go by the orderin which I set things up in my
office, right?
So one of the first things Iset up was you can see behind me
, my, my, my, probably my mostimportant piece of equipment is
my vintage a chi cassette deckwhere I play my collection of
about 400 cassette tapes,because that's what I need to do
my work.
But if the, if the music's notgoing, my brain's not going.
(43:33):
So you know, if I'm here andI'm working, something's coming
out of those, those speakers.
So without any music, I thinkmy days would feel a lot longer,
and I think that if I had topick one piece of equipment that
I couldn't do without workingremotely, it'd be my stereo.
Felicity Brand (43:46):
Yeah, Wow, that is fantastic.
You know, I would imagine mostpeople just have Spotify running
through the computer.
But you are old school and Ihave music subscription services
.
Bryan Behrenshausen (43:58):
I listen to a lot of digital music, but I
like to buy my own music andmaintain a collection instead of
renting music, which you know Iunderstand works for some
people.
It's just not my style.
Felicity Brand (44:07):
This has been a fantastic conversation, Bryan.
Is there anything else that wethat you wanted to cover today
have we have.
We done it all.
Bryan Behrenshausen (44:15):
Oh well, I think.
Well, now I understand.
We could probably talk forhours, felicity, but let's just
leave it at.
I'll come back anytime, you'llhave me.
Felicity Brand (44:24):
Yeah, well, we'll have you back.
I'd love to hear more about theopen organization project.
So yeah, let's try and tee thatup.
So I guess nothing else remainsbut for me to say thank you
very much.
I've thoroughly enjoyed ourconversation.
I'll see you around.
Open Source.
Bryan Behrenshausen (44:39):
You bet I hope our paths cross again.
Thanks so much for theinterview and thanks so much for
having me on your great show.
Carl Richards (45:00):
We hope you enjoyed listening to Felicity's
Conversation with Bryan.
If you have questions, head onover to the show notes, where
you'll find all of Bryan'sinformation, and feel free to
reach out to us as well viaTwitter at
openunderscorestrategy, or emailhello at
openstrategypartnerscom.
This was one of the editorialcodes we use at OSP.
(45:21):
We'll be sharing more of themas we go.
If you'd like to learn more inthe meantime, come over to
openstrategypartnerscom, have alook at our writer enablement,
workshops, case study offeringor get in touch to talk about
your strategy or productcommunication needs.
Thanks to everyone whocontributed to this podcast all
(45:42):
the P's at OSP.
Thanks to our clients whobelieve in us.
Shout out to Patrick Gaumontfor our high energy maple syrup
flavored theme music and to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing, and our three
themes on the podcast.
You'll hear from differentmembers of the OSP team hosting
(46:04):
episodes over time.
Communicate all thingscommunication we share how we
tackle writing, editing, wordchoices, formats, processes and
more.
Connect in depth conversationswith interesting, smart people
about who they are, what they doand how they approach their
life and work as communicators,technologists and leaders.
(46:27):
Grow.
We cover strategic approachesto understanding and expressing
the value of what you do,including tools, templates and
practical applications.
We also feel strongly aboutbuilding a mindful, positive,
human first culture at work.
That's bound to pop up fromtime to time, too.
This podcast is us figuring outcommunication, connection and
(46:52):
growing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, applePodcast or the podcast channel
of your choice.
Follow us, suggest guests andtopics, ask us questions.
On social media, we are at OpenUnderscore Strategy on Twitter.
Until next time.
Thanks for listening toCommunicate, connect, grow.
(47:13):
See you next time.
Felicity Brand (47:45):
I'm going to go off script.
Okay, I just thought ofsomething that I wanted to talk
about.
Bryan Behrenshausen (47:52):
Do I need to do the interstitial for you
Like, don't you like it?
Are you going to change that,isn't that?
You get your little.
You can splice that in if youwant.
Do a clean take and then youswitch topics.
Felicity Brand (48:07):
Yeah, no, I don't think I can.
I'm not that smooth, Bryan, I'mnot that smooth.
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