July 4, 2023 • 36 mins
Ready to reshape your understanding of effective communication? Unlock the secrets of meshing Technical Communication and Marketing with Felicity Brand and our special guest, Zohra Mutabanna from the Inside Tech Com podcast.
Check out more Inside Tech Com here: https://www.insidetechcomm.show/1728253
Zohra and Felicity delve into the crucial role of empathy, clarity, and trust in establishing successful marketing strategies. Sharing their experiences, they take you on a journey through a landscape where active listening and detailed clarity aren’t just nice-to-have, but pivotal to survival.
They also talk about maintaining consistency within a large team. Hear firsthand how a structured team, clever use of tools like Slack, and fostering a culture of collaboration can smoothen your path to success.
Our experts also explore the potentials and pitfalls of AI in technical writing and remote work. They share our experiences with AI tools like ChatGPT and Bard, and how they can either be a game-changer or a challenging adversary.
Welcome to the Open Strategy Partners podcast, "Communicate, Connect, Grow!" At Open Strategy Partners, we specialize in strategic product communication. We help you communicate the value of what you do, connect you with the people who need to know about it, and grow.
To get in touch with us, follow what we’re doing, or learn about our Writer Enablement Workshops, you can:
- Go to our website
- Email us at hello@openstrategypartners.com
- Hit us up on Twitter
- Subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen to podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:07):
Hi, i'm Carl and this is Communicate Connect Grow
, the open strategy partnerspodcast.
This is a very specialcrossover episode with Zohra
Mutabanna from the Inside TechComm podcast.
At OSP, we do a lot of thinkingabout what makes for effective,
consistent communication.
In this podcast, we want toshow you how we translate
(00:28):
between technical complexity andbusiness value to create
strategic product communicationat OSP and we want to learn more
from you and our guests.
This episode is part of ourConnect series on the podcast.
Connect episodes are in-depthconversations with interesting,
smart people about who they are,what they do and how they
(00:48):
approach their life and work ascommunicators, technologists and
leaders.
Today, OSPea Felicity Brandsits down with Zohra Mutabanna
(01:12):
from the Inside Tech Commpodcast to chat about what makes
a great communicator, whereTech comm and Marcomm meet,
working remote first and allthings AI.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Felicity and Zohra.
Felicity Brand (01:26):
I'm excited today for our crossover episode
with open strategy partnersOzpod and the host of Inside
Tech Comm, Zohra Mutabana.
Hello Zohra, hi Felicity, niceto meet you And you.
I'm really pleased to speakwith you.
Maybe let's start with someintroductions.
Perhaps could you tell us whoyou are and what you do,
(01:49):
absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (01:50):
My name is Zohra Mutabana.
I live in Dallas, Texas, USA.
I work as a technical writer,as a senior technical writer,
with a company called BlackBot.
I went to school to become atechnical writer.
I have been a technical writersince 2004, so coming up on two
decades.
I have mostly worked with techcompanies and kind of
(02:15):
specializing, or rather focusing, in the cybersecurity area.
That's been my niche.
I also am the host of theInside Tech Comm podcast.
I live and breathe technicalcommunication.
Felicity Brand (02:28):
I love it.
I love it Me too, and I feellike it's a vocation.
You know, even if you weren'tworking as a technical writer,
you can't switch it off.
It's always in your brain Andwhen I'm out in the world,
that's kind of how my mind works.
So I, there are some.
We have some similarities.
So I also went to school fortechnical communication.
(02:51):
I did a postgraduate coursehere in Melbourne, Australia.
I was a business analyst beforethat.
Nobody knew what a BA was backthen.
And then I went into technicalwriting and nobody knew what
technical writing was when I wasat dinner parties.
And I also have pretty muchworked in software, my career.
I've been a tech writer for 14years.
(03:13):
I call myself a technicalcommunicator, But for the last
four years I've been with OSPworking in marketing
communication.
I really enjoy it.
I think some maybe some of yourlisteners or I might think I've
gone to the other side, but Ithink that there is some real
value that technical writers canbring to that marketing
(03:36):
perspective.
So if you want to dive intothat, i'm happy to talk more
about that.
Zohra Mutabanna (03:42):
I would love for you to talk more about it
because, if I may say so, i'm alittle bit envious of you
because you seem to have wornseveral hats, which I haven't
had the chance to do.
My mindset is just that of atechnical communicator And I
like that word, but I think,with everything that you have
done in your career, i can onlyimagine the depth of skills that
(04:05):
you can bring.
And yes, i would love to.
I would love for us to see howwe can bridge the two fields.
Felicity Brand (04:10):
Yeah, And that's something that OSP feel really
strongly about, and I think Iprobably could only ever work in
marketing which I do now at aplace where I felt, i suppose,
safe, like at OSP.
So in my previous workinghistory I was in organizations,
(04:33):
and always as a technical writerin the technology department,
you know, working withdevelopers in the product
management area, and then wewould have this big kind of gap,
this chasm, and then we wouldhave to work with the marketing
department when it came torelease time And as the
technical writer you're normallykind of the I don't know the
(04:55):
spokesperson, the front face,like it's normally send the tech
writer over to talk with themarketing people and tell them
what's in the latest release, orthey will come to you and say,
why is this feature good?
And then you find yourself kindof at this, this crunchy area.
Yeah, you know, there is thissaying that I've heard
developers are allergic tomarketing And I don't know how
(05:17):
true that is, but I think thelandscape is changing a little
bit.
But at Open Strategy Partners,i suppose the only reason that I
can sleep at night is becausewe focus on this thing called
authentic communication.
So empathy, clarity and trust ishow we live and work, and that
just means that we have empathyfor our audience.
(05:37):
So we understand who's readingwhat we're writing, and we know
that they need everything to bereally clear.
We need to get the detailsright.
We need to understand whatwe're talking about.
So that means we have tounderstand the tech.
If we're talking about aservice or a product and it's
features, we need to be able tosay how is this gonna make your
(05:58):
job easier or your life better?
And as a technical writer, Ilike detail, I like to get the
facts right, and so that's kindof how we create all our
communication at OSP.
So something that we reallyvalue at OSP is empathy.
And, Zohra, i've noticed as alistener of your podcast you're
really good at active listeningand that's really important for
(06:21):
empathy.
So I wanted to know is thatsomething that comes naturally
to you, or did you have to kindof work at that to build that
skill?
Zohra Mutabanna (06:29):
First of all, thank you for listening to my
podcast.
I always love it.
It's such a niche podcast.
It's got a very niche audience,so I really appreciate it.
And about being an activelistener, i think it has taken
me a while to really get to thispoint.
I don't think I was a naturalat it And one of the reasons I
(06:50):
did the podcast was sort of toimprove upon that skill of mine.
As technical writers you arealways interviewing But you
always have retakes when you arenot in front of the camera.
But as a podcaster I've had toreally really focus on that
(07:11):
skill And, to be honest, beforeI launched my podcast I probably
interviewed eight people, eightguinea pigs, and I would record
those sessions and look atmyself And I would hate it.
I would talk over people, iwould repeat myself.
What I'm trying to say is it didnot come overnight.
I really had to practice beforeI got to a point where I was
(07:35):
comfortable And of course, mypodcasts are not live, so I also
have the advantage of editingout what I don't need.
But just that listening part.
I also realized I had some bestpractices for myself.
Like I take notes as somebody'stalking to me And if I'm
listening, then I'm able to takenotes, and I'm listening with
(07:55):
the intent to have a follow-upquestion, not just so that I
have a bunch of questions thatare scripted And then I ask you
a question just for the sake ofasking, but trying to make it
organic.
So it's been a process.
Felicity Brand (08:09):
I love that And have you found that it has
helped you in your everyday job?
Can you take that skill intoyour working?
Zohra Mutabanna (08:16):
life.
Definitely, like I said, i tendto speak over others, sometimes
not intentionally, and I'mtrying to put that into practice
even now.
Yes, absolutely.
I try to make sure that I letthe other person speak and
finish, and when I see like OK,there's this natural pause, then
I try to take my turn.
(08:38):
But I think it's just helped mecommunicate better.
You know, when I listen, i'mable to communicate better.
Felicity Brand (08:45):
As I understand it, you work with a large team
of writers at your job.
I'd be really interested toknow a bit more about the
structure and how you all work,I suppose.
Zohra Mutabanna (08:56):
Yes, absolutely So.
I work for a company calledBlackboard, which is based out
of South Carolina, and I've beenwith this company for two years
And the team I think we areabout 30 writers.
In my entire career I havenever worked with such a large
team.
We have a director And then wehave, i believe, three managers,
(09:16):
and each manager has a set ofyou know, i think a team of six
people six to eight peoplereporting into them.
When I joined the team, ithought, oh my god, how will I
get to know all these people?
Right, but the cool thing waswe had to, within the first, i
think, month, what I did.
(09:36):
This is something that isrecommended, and my manager, who
onboarded me, suggested that Ijust do like a meet and greet.
We are a remote first company,so I'm not going to get to meet
these people.
So one of the things that wedid, or we do, to overcome this
barrier of not knowing yourentire team is to do a meet and
greet.
So I did a meet and greet witheverybody And there was no
(09:59):
timeline to do that, so that wasone of the practices that I
think really helped me to get toknow what each member of the
team does and how we cancollaborate as we progress
further in our careers.
So that was one of the bestpractices that benefited me.
I believe I'm an introvert, butprobably not.
(10:19):
I think the podcast has helpedme, but just interacting with
people, i realized that thereare people on my team who are
people of few words, so I reallyhad to draw information out of
them Over the last two years.
The way the teams have been setup and also the collaboration
tools that we use, like we useSlack, we use Teams.
(10:42):
The one thing that is front andcenter felicity is empathy.
We treat each other withempathy.
We talk about empathy when wetalk about our audience, but the
culture is one of empathy,which I'm so grateful for,
because I've been on teams wherethat's not front and center.
On the team, there is burnout.
(11:04):
Of course, there is alwaysburnout in any profession, but
the empathy that my managers andmy team bring to the table has
helped me work with this teamand learn so much, and I had a
buddy when I started.
We have office hours for UX.
You know there are so manythings that have been done right
.
In my personal opinion, i havebenefited from those best
(11:28):
practices, those industrypractices and just the team
culture.
David Owens is my director andmy manager is Colleen, And my
director has been a guest on mypodcast, you know.
So that tells you howcomfortable I am with, you know,
with the people I report to.
So it's just the team cultureand I think even the company
(11:51):
culture at large.
But I would really speak to myteam culture because those are
the people that I interact withon a day-to-day basis The
product managers that I workwith we have Agile, we use Safe
Product managers, the developerseverybody that I work with have
been very welcoming, very warmand very, very empathetic And
that has helped me be the bestin my authentic self.
Felicity Brand (12:15):
Yeah, i love that and I have a lot of
similarities.
It's so great to hear whenremote first companies get it
right or do things well.
I also am remote.
Well, osp, i suppose, areremote first, where we do have a
headquarters in Cologne inGermany, but I'm in Melbourne,
australia.
We have a distributed team andI think we also have some
(12:37):
practices that make my workinglife really enjoyable and I feel
very connected with everyone inthe team and that's because you
have to work at it.
You can't just do nothing andyou slack and expect there to be
connection.
And you're right about theempathy and we have a gratitude
(12:57):
channel.
So we will celebrate successes,both working and personal.
We'll kind of cheer each otheron, which is really nice.
We have a weekly team meetingwhich occurs in my small hours,
2 or 3 am, so I don't attend.
But what we instituted thisyear was well, i think last year
(13:19):
I said you know, can you recordthat so I can see everyone?
So we did that for a littlewhile and I would get up the
next day and watch the recordingand see everyone's faces and
then I thought, well, they'renot seeing me.
So what we do now is I get upfirst and record my little
section of the meeting and thenwhen everyone comes online to
(13:41):
join the meeting, they all watchme.
So it works for us and I thinkit really helps just have that
face time.
You know people are seeing eachother and it helps make you
feel like a team.
We also do gratitude statementsin our meetings so everyone
will kind of say what they'regrateful for, and it could be in
their personal life or at workand that's just a nice daily
(14:05):
practice to.
I love that, yeah, to help usfeel connected.
And I did just want to say onemore thing about empathy.
So you know, we talk aboutauthentic communication at OSP
and we apply that in the workthat we do, the content we
create.
But we also, you know, it's thefirst place I've worked where
the managers so the co-founders,jam and Tracy they really
(14:27):
practice what they preach, andso we have had moments where
maybe things haven't quite goneright or we'll have discussions
about is this working or have wemade a mistake and how can we
fix that, and it gets reallykind of raw and vulnerable.
But you only grow out of thosekind of discussions And what I
(14:49):
really like about my team isthat we're all kind of lifelong
learners and we're allconstantly trying to get better
and be our best selves and workthe best way we can.
So yeah, you know you can.
People throw the word empathyaround.
It takes work and it ispractice and you have to commit
(15:11):
to it.
I think it's very interesting.
Zohra Mutabanna (15:13):
Oh, definitely, definitely, i think you it's a,
you have to work at it, and ifeverybody has to invest into it,
otherwise it's not going towork.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, I love the great, thegratitude statements that you
talked about.
We do that too.
You know we have a safe zonewhen I can say anything to my
manager.
that again makes me feel verycomfortable in my own skin And
(15:37):
if I, if I make a mistake, iknow I can own it and I'm not
going to be punished for it, butgrow from it.
Felicity Brand (15:43):
Yes, yeah, it's, it's great.
Yeah, it's a wonderful way towork.
I love it.
So you mentioned your largeteam.
I'm curious about processes.
So how do you keep consistencyacross so many people?
Zohra Mutabanna (15:59):
Good question The way the team is structured,
apart from the managers thathave direct reports, there are
leads.
There is a UX lead, there is aaccessibility lead right, and
there are these small teams,right, and anybody can volunteer
to be on those.
So, for example, accessibilityhas a bunch of writers who are
(16:21):
passionate about it And theysort of, i would say, work with
marketing and probably legal toput the standards in place, and
there's immense documentation.
Right, we love to write, but Ithink that is really the core
that drives how we all worktogether, right, right, so we
(16:46):
have a style, style guide.
Felicity Brand (16:48):
For sure Those decisions get documented and
your other writers know.
Then to that.
Zohra Mutabanna (16:54):
Right, yes, and we have.
You know, since I think Imentioned, we use Slack and
there are channels foraccessibility, for help strategy
, for UX, and if you have anyquestions you can just post it
there And then somebody from theteam steps in and, you know,
walks you through it.
Or you can just brainstorm Andif I'm right now working on a UI
(17:14):
copy and I'm actually writingtoast messages, it sounds very
simple but there is a ton ofdocumentation.
But I'm like it would be greatif somebody could just look this
over, or I could justbrainstorm this with anybody on
my team I can reach out to andask if they have the time.
If not, i can take it to officehours and I can share.
So you have to be a littlegutsy sometimes if you want to
(17:37):
do that And a bunch of teammembers will come on, come to
office hours and they will.
They'll give their feedback.
I won't say they critique it,they give their feedback.
So it's again because empathyis at its core of all these
discussions.
I personally do not hesitate toreach out, ask for help.
So it's just the whole culture,the whole dynamic that has set
me up, so the system is set me.
(17:58):
Setting me up for success?
is, i think, what I'm trying toget to?
Felicity Brand (18:02):
Yes, yes, i love that, So I did want to move on,
but I just wanted to ask onequick question about your office
hours.
So I have not heard that.
Can you just explain how thatworks?
Zohra Mutabanna (18:13):
Absolutely.
For example, i've talked aboutUX, user experience.
Right, i'm writing UI copy.
I'm working with the designerand the product manager to write
UI copy.
Now, it could be one simplelanding page or it could be
multiple.
It could be a wizard.
So just just pick anythingright.
And let's say, i'm writing copyand I'm struggling with it, So
(18:34):
these office hours are justpenciled in.
They're standing meetings everyweek, so I can bring anything
that I'm struggling with to theoffice hours and I can say Hey,
guys and gals, i'm strugglingwith this.
Or I have come up with thiscopy.
What do you all think?
Does this align with our tone,our voice, our style?
What kind of suggestions canyou give?
(18:56):
And there is, like I said, ourUX lead runs that meeting.
Anybody can run that meeting.
But we have Roxana who runsthat meeting and we can come
with any question that isrelated to user experience And
Roxana will give her tips, butanybody can give their feedback.
So it becomes like a teameffort at that point.
And I know that if nobody'savailable let's say it's a busy
(19:18):
week for everybody on my teamsomebody or the other is always
available to help me out, but ifI have a tech question.
There's somebody who is a techgeek on my team.
I can reach out to them.
So I can just tap intoeverybody and I don't take it
personally if they say, hey, i'mnot available right away.
And we also try to respect eachother's timings.
We put it on their calendar tomake sure that people have focus
time, but these office hoursallow us to really bring our
(19:42):
questions and talk about it,whatever that is in that
allocated hour.
Felicity Brand (19:46):
Yeah, i love that.
It's something that I miss.
working remote is being in kindof a busy cross-functional team
where you can just walk up topeople's desks and someone else
might over here and you'll endup having a little huddle
discussion about a feature orwriting.
So you have to work harder atthat when you're remote to try
and facilitate thoseconversations to happen.
(20:08):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (20:09):
And I think the channels that we have the Slack
channels kind of I think try tomimic that where I post
something and there's thischatter and anybody can jump in.
Of course there's nothing getsclose to in-person interactions
but, the culture.
This collaborative culturedefinitely lends itself to being
(20:31):
more productive andcollaborative.
Felicity Brand (20:33):
Yes.
So let's talk about the subjecton everyone's lips AI, and I
know you've been speaking to afew people lately who and you've
been talking about this topicof AI and generative content, so
I'd like to know what are yourthoughts at the moment.
Are you feeling cautiouslyoptimistic?
Are you excited?
(20:54):
Are you worried?
Cautiously optimistic?
Zohra Mutabanna (20:56):
You said it Exactly, exactly, that I'm
cautiously optimistic.
I think somebody mentioned onsome webinar being a techno
optimist, and that's exactlywhat I am, but I'm very cautious
about it.
One day I wake up and I'm likeAI cannot replace me.
And I wake up the next day andI'm like, oh, ai is definitely
going to replace me.
(21:17):
So I think we are all kind ofteaching on that And I think
it's going to be that way untilthere is going to be some
regulation put into place.
Felicity Brand (21:27):
I read an interesting article yesterday
that was talking about that theidea of garbage in, garbage out
but also saying that at themoment, while we still need tech
writers, perhaps we need to bethinking about writing not just
for our human readers, but alsobeing aware, as we write, that
it could be an AI that'sconsuming this to then spit it
(21:48):
out later.
So I thought that was a reallyinteresting kind of way to frame
it, and I wondered how youmight write differently knowing
that an AI is going to beconsuming it.
I wondered about structuredcontent, or I didn't actually
have any answers, but I thoughtthat's so interesting.
Zohra Mutabanna (22:05):
When I think about garbage and garbage out
and I think you framed thatreally well we need to start
thinking about not just a humanaudience, but AI as our audience
as well.
The one thing that I worryabout is bias and inaccuracies.
In my perspective, those aretwo things.
That I would be focusing on isthe bias, because that is one
(22:28):
thing that is in our control,and the less we feed that into
the dataset, the better theoutput will be from the AI.
Felicity Brand (22:35):
Yeah, we should dig into that.
Personally, i have been usingchat GPT for fun and for a
little bit of a leg up in mywork.
At the moment We use it as atool where we're mindfully
researching it and we're goingto try and embrace it to the
extent that it can be helpful tous.
(22:57):
I don't think that we arerunning scared and I don't think
that we're afraid for our jobs.
It is really useful, andparticularly any of the manual
or tedious parts of writing andtechnical writing that it can do
.
I'm all for that.
Use a tool to help you do theboring bits so that you can
(23:17):
focus on the fun parts or thecreative parts or the parts that
you really can add value.
As we know, it has shortcomingsat the moment.
I suspect that's probably goingto be improved very quickly.
But, yeah, i think it behoovesus to be aware of it and to pay
attention to it so that we'renot scrambling to catch up.
Zohra Mutabanna (23:40):
I used bot today to do my research, for
actually to prep myself on whatis AI, what is under the hood?
if I had to explain that,definitely, bard is integrated
with the Google search.
The data set is more current,unlike ChatGPT.
But until this point I havebeen exclusively been using
(24:02):
ChatGPT, probably just becauseit's been available.
I think the experience is verysimilar with both tools.
But I think you're right,chatgpt is.
Its data set is not verycurrent, so you have to be
mindful of that.
But with Bard, that worry goesaway.
But it's just the way they werespitting out data.
I was not very happy with it.
(24:24):
For example, i asked Bard canyou tell me in a very
non-technical way what is AI?
And the explanation it spit outto me was pretty long and
verbose.
I think ChatGPT did a betterjob of that.
Same question, the same prompt,the exact same prompt.
Chatgpt gave a better answer, ithink.
At the end of the day, theseare all tools that we are going
to end up using And we have tobe mindful of those tools.
(24:47):
I'm using ChatGPT to.
I just put in a prompt.
I want to learn how to use theopen AI API to build a Chatbot.
So it gave me a bunch of stepsAnd then I said, well, i don't
have the time to do this.
Can you simplify it for me andcreate a training plan that
(25:08):
spans over five days?
And it did that.
So it's like a conversation,it's iterative, you work on your
prompts And I've actuallycreated a training plan for
myself that I'm going to putinto practice.
So my company has these dayscalled Tech Thursdays once a
month, where you get the wholeday to experiment and do what
you want.
It could be anything.
You can learn a tool, you cantry something new.
(25:31):
It's your time, it's forprofessional development.
So the way I've created thatplan is to see how I can use
those eight hours to build aChatbot by the end of the day.
So let's see what happens, butit's come up with an amazing
training plan for me.
So anybody that feels the coolthing about these AI tools is
(25:51):
you can ask them how do I useyou Right, i think and this is
not me saying.
Somebody else actuallymentioned this And I started
thinking about it with Googlesearch.
You didn't know how to useGoogle search.
With these AI tools, you canask them how do I use you And
they teach you how to use them.
Felicity Brand (26:08):
Isn't that cool.
This is getting a bit meta.
I'm a bit.
All right, Zohra, let's getinto the lightning round.
Let's see if we can do somerapid fire questions And I'll
see if I can answer them too,just to share the love.
So what's one kind ofcommunication you wish you could
do better?
First, waste of communication.
(26:30):
Yeah, i think for me I'd sayspeaking Okay, who is a
communicator who inspires you?
Zohra Mutabanna (26:39):
If I had to, pick, it would be my dad.
Oh, why is that?
He is no more, But when he wasborn in India and he went to a
vernacular medium, So hiseducation was not.
His primary education was notin English, But by the time I
came into his life I would havenever known that he was not
English educated.
So he just became my role modelAnd he spoke several languages.
(27:03):
So I think you know he was abig influence.
Felicity Brand (27:08):
That's fantastic .
I'm always.
I am monolingual.
I'm always impressed by peoplewho can speak multiple languages
.
What's one thing you wish youknew about tech writing when you
were getting started?
That's a tricky one, becauseyou've had such a long history,
so the industry has probablychanged.
Zohra Mutabanna (27:30):
Yes, if somebody had told me that
technical writing is going tochange and you'll have to
constantly pivot, that wouldhave been awesome, because I got
into thinking you're just doingthis documentation.
The vision of this professionis you're working in silos.
That's not true.
I thought all I would do is sitand write, but it's 20% writing
(27:53):
and 80% talking to people.
Yes, it's not a profession thatis very conducive, i think, for
introverts, because you reallyhave to push yourself.
Yes, many students that Imentor think that I will be on
my own and I don't have to worryabout anybody and I say I'm
(28:14):
sorry, but that is not going tobe your experience.
Felicity Brand (28:17):
Yes, i can agree with that one that you.
I got into it for the writing,but you're so right when you say
that writing is not themajority of what we do.
Yes, absolutely.
You work remote, as do I.
What's your favorite piece ofhardware in your home office
setup?
Zohra Mutabanna (28:37):
I'm really not much of a gadget person, but if
I had to pick one thing, i wouldthink it's the camera, because
it allows me to see the peoplethat I'm talking to.
I do not like to talk to peoplewithout the camera on.
That would be my favorite pieceof equipment.
Felicity Brand (28:56):
Yes, i like that .
My favorite is my standing desk.
I've got an electric standingdesk so it can go up and down
whenever I choose.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:04):
You know what?
Can I change my answer?
I love my standing desk morethan my camera.
Felicity Brand (29:09):
Do you have an anti fatigue standing mat?
I do Yes, my manager highlyrecommended it.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:17):
I did not have it but thanks to Colleen I got
it.
Felicity Brand (29:21):
Highly recommend .
One last word to describe youas a communicator.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:27):
You know what I'm going to take your
compliment, the active listenerpart.
I think that has become mystrength since I've been
podcasting.
Yes, i love it.
You have to listen to become abetter communicator.
Felicity Brand (29:43):
Yeah, that's so great.
I don't think I can describeone word to describe me as a
communicator, enthusiastic.
That's all I got.
I think that we can probablywrap up now.
Zohra, is there anything thatwe haven't talked about that you
thought we might cover today?
Zohra Mutabanna (30:02):
AI was on top of my mind and working remote.
Those are the two topics that Iwanted to talk about.
I will say this Those companiesthat think being remote takes
away from the experience.
I think I've benefited morebeing in-person teams, because
there can be a lot of toxicitythere.
Honestly, i work better and I'mmore productive when I'm away
(30:28):
from that sort of toxicity.
Of course, one thing I wouldlike to say is for all technical
communicators that are outthere grab your seat at the
table and try to involveyourself as early on in the
process as you can upstream,because that is going to empower
you and that's going to be youradvantage And be open to AI
(30:51):
tools.
Just be curious, and that'swhat we do.
We are always learning, andthat's how we should approach AI
as well.
Felicity Brand (30:59):
Yes, i absolutely agree.
Yes, where can we find you?
Where can people go to listento your podcast?
Zohra Mutabanna (31:07):
I have a website.
It's inside techcomm.
show.
Many people think it's in site,but it's inside.
You can grab my latest episodesfrom there.
I'm also an actor on LinkedIn.
I would love for people toconnect with me because I'm a
(31:27):
lifelong learner and I alwayslearn from people, so I would
invite people to connect with me.
Felicity Brand (31:32):
Yes, and we'll put those links in our show
notes And I thoroughly recommendyour podcast and I really
enjoyed the episode aboutcontent research.
That was fascinating and I wasremembering happy times at my
former job where my fellow techwriter and I were embedded in
the UX team and we had anaccount with user testingcom,
(31:58):
which isa quite expensive tooland it is amazing, and so, of
course, the UX designers wereusing that tool to test all
their features that they wantedto test.
But we as tech writers got touse it as well so we could do A
B testing on some languagechoices.
We were creating a new wizardand we could step the users
(32:19):
through the pages of the wizard.
It was so good and you got therecording of the user.
That's fantastic, like talkingthrough where.
Oh yeah, it was gold.
So I really loved listening toyour guest talking about content
research and I really recommendall the tech writers out there
try and test their docs if theyhave the opportunity.
Zohra Mutabanna (32:41):
I think that's great advice.
Absolutely Content researchneeds to be done.
Felicity Brand (32:46):
I was going to say yeah, and that kind of taps
into what you were talking aboutearlier about bias and how we
really need to have high qualitydocs if they're going into that
.
Ai or, like LLMs, largelanguage models, only through
testing through users andfinding out what your effective
content is, is what's going togive you high quality content
(33:08):
into an AI system.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:10):
No, that's an interesting perspective,
absolutely, i think, you know.
Felicity Brand (33:13):
But who has the time?
No one's going to fund thatZohra.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:17):
I know, you know what.
That's why we are here.
That's why we are here toadvocate for content.
Felicity Brand (33:22):
Well, i've really enjoyed talking with you
today, thank you.
People can find out about OSPat openstrategypartnerscom.
We would love for you to listento our podcast.
I hope to see you around, Zohra.
I know that we're both in Rightthe Docs, so perhaps we can
catch up there someday soon,absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:42):
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Thank you.
Carl Richards (34:18):
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this
podcast, all the P's at OSP,thanks to our clients who
believe in us.
Shout out to Patrick Gaumontfor our high-energy maple syrup
flavored theme music And to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing.
About our three themes on thepodcast, you'll hear from
(34:41):
different members of the OSPteam hosting episodes over time.
Communicate All things.
communication We share how wetackle writing, editing, word
choices, formats, processes andmore.
Connect In-depth conversationswith interesting, smart people
about who they are, what they doand how they approach their
(35:03):
life and work as communicators,technologists and leaders.
Grow We cover strategicapproaches to understanding and
expressing the value of what youdo, including tools, templates
and practical applications.
We also feel strongly aboutbuilding a mindful, positive,
human first culture at work.
(35:23):
That's bound to pop up fromtime to time too.
This podcast is us figuring outcommunication, connection and
growing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, applePodcast or the podcast channel
of your choice.
Follow us, suggest guests andtopics.
Ask us questions on socialmedia.
(35:44):
We are at Open UnderscoreStrategy on Twitter Until next
time.
Thanks for listening toCommunicate Connect Grow The OSP
Podcast.
Hi, i'm Carl and this is Communicate Connect Grow
, the open strategy partnerspodcast.
This is a very specialcrossover episode with Zohra
Mutabanna from the Inside TechComm podcast.
At OSP, we do a lot of thinkingabout what makes for effective,
consistent communication.
In this podcast, we want toshow you how we translate
(00:28):
between technical complexity andbusiness value to create
strategic product communicationat OSP and we want to learn more
from you and our guests.
This episode is part of ourConnect series on the podcast.
Connect episodes are in-depthconversations with interesting,
smart people about who they are,what they do and how they
(00:48):
approach their life and work ascommunicators, technologists and
leaders.
Today, OSPea Felicity Brandsits down with Zohra Mutabanna
(01:12):
from the Inside Tech Commpodcast to chat about what makes
a great communicator, whereTech comm and Marcomm meet,
working remote first and allthings AI.
Please enjoy this conversationwith Felicity and Zohra.
Felicity Brand (01:26):
I'm excited today for our crossover episode
with open strategy partnersOzpod and the host of Inside
Tech Comm, Zohra Mutabana.
Hello Zohra, hi Felicity, niceto meet you And you.
I'm really pleased to speakwith you.
Maybe let's start with someintroductions.
Perhaps could you tell us whoyou are and what you do,
(01:49):
absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (01:50):
My name is Zohra Mutabana.
I live in Dallas, Texas, USA.
I work as a technical writer,as a senior technical writer,
with a company called BlackBot.
I went to school to become atechnical writer.
I have been a technical writersince 2004, so coming up on two
decades.
I have mostly worked with techcompanies and kind of
(02:15):
specializing, or rather focusing, in the cybersecurity area.
That's been my niche.
I also am the host of theInside Tech Comm podcast.
I live and breathe technicalcommunication.
Felicity Brand (02:28):
I love it.
I love it Me too, and I feellike it's a vocation.
You know, even if you weren'tworking as a technical writer,
you can't switch it off.
It's always in your brain Andwhen I'm out in the world,
that's kind of how my mind works.
So I, there are some.
We have some similarities.
So I also went to school fortechnical communication.
(02:51):
I did a postgraduate coursehere in Melbourne, Australia.
I was a business analyst beforethat.
Nobody knew what a BA was backthen.
And then I went into technicalwriting and nobody knew what
technical writing was when I wasat dinner parties.
And I also have pretty muchworked in software, my career.
I've been a tech writer for 14years.
(03:13):
I call myself a technicalcommunicator, But for the last
four years I've been with OSPworking in marketing
communication.
I really enjoy it.
I think some maybe some of yourlisteners or I might think I've
gone to the other side, but Ithink that there is some real
value that technical writers canbring to that marketing
(03:36):
perspective.
So if you want to dive intothat, i'm happy to talk more
about that.
Zohra Mutabanna (03:42):
I would love for you to talk more about it
because, if I may say so, i'm alittle bit envious of you
because you seem to have wornseveral hats, which I haven't
had the chance to do.
My mindset is just that of atechnical communicator And I
like that word, but I think,with everything that you have
done in your career, i can onlyimagine the depth of skills that
(04:05):
you can bring.
And yes, i would love to.
I would love for us to see howwe can bridge the two fields.
Felicity Brand (04:10):
Yeah, And that's something that OSP feel really
strongly about, and I think Iprobably could only ever work in
marketing which I do now at aplace where I felt, i suppose,
safe, like at OSP.
So in my previous workinghistory I was in organizations,
(04:33):
and always as a technical writerin the technology department,
you know, working withdevelopers in the product
management area, and then wewould have this big kind of gap,
this chasm, and then we wouldhave to work with the marketing
department when it came torelease time And as the
technical writer you're normallykind of the I don't know the
(04:55):
spokesperson, the front face,like it's normally send the tech
writer over to talk with themarketing people and tell them
what's in the latest release, orthey will come to you and say,
why is this feature good?
And then you find yourself kindof at this, this crunchy area.
Yeah, you know, there is thissaying that I've heard
developers are allergic tomarketing And I don't know how
(05:17):
true that is, but I think thelandscape is changing a little
bit.
But at Open Strategy Partners,i suppose the only reason that I
can sleep at night is becausewe focus on this thing called
authentic communication.
So empathy, clarity and trust ishow we live and work, and that
just means that we have empathyfor our audience.
(05:37):
So we understand who's readingwhat we're writing, and we know
that they need everything to bereally clear.
We need to get the detailsright.
We need to understand whatwe're talking about.
So that means we have tounderstand the tech.
If we're talking about aservice or a product and it's
features, we need to be able tosay how is this gonna make your
(05:58):
job easier or your life better?
And as a technical writer, Ilike detail, I like to get the
facts right, and so that's kindof how we create all our
communication at OSP.
So something that we reallyvalue at OSP is empathy.
And, Zohra, i've noticed as alistener of your podcast you're
really good at active listeningand that's really important for
(06:21):
empathy.
So I wanted to know is thatsomething that comes naturally
to you, or did you have to kindof work at that to build that
skill?
Zohra Mutabanna (06:29):
First of all, thank you for listening to my
podcast.
I always love it.
It's such a niche podcast.
It's got a very niche audience,so I really appreciate it.
And about being an activelistener, i think it has taken
me a while to really get to thispoint.
I don't think I was a naturalat it And one of the reasons I
(06:50):
did the podcast was sort of toimprove upon that skill of mine.
As technical writers you arealways interviewing But you
always have retakes when you arenot in front of the camera.
But as a podcaster I've had toreally really focus on that
(07:11):
skill And, to be honest, beforeI launched my podcast I probably
interviewed eight people, eightguinea pigs, and I would record
those sessions and look atmyself And I would hate it.
I would talk over people, iwould repeat myself.
What I'm trying to say is it didnot come overnight.
I really had to practice beforeI got to a point where I was
(07:35):
comfortable And of course, mypodcasts are not live, so I also
have the advantage of editingout what I don't need.
But just that listening part.
I also realized I had some bestpractices for myself.
Like I take notes as somebody'stalking to me And if I'm
listening, then I'm able to takenotes, and I'm listening with
(07:55):
the intent to have a follow-upquestion, not just so that I
have a bunch of questions thatare scripted And then I ask you
a question just for the sake ofasking, but trying to make it
organic.
So it's been a process.
Felicity Brand (08:09):
I love that And have you found that it has
helped you in your everyday job?
Can you take that skill intoyour working?
Zohra Mutabanna (08:16):
life.
Definitely, like I said, i tendto speak over others, sometimes
not intentionally, and I'mtrying to put that into practice
even now.
Yes, absolutely.
I try to make sure that I letthe other person speak and
finish, and when I see like OK,there's this natural pause, then
I try to take my turn.
(08:38):
But I think it's just helped mecommunicate better.
You know, when I listen, i'mable to communicate better.
Felicity Brand (08:45):
As I understand it, you work with a large team
of writers at your job.
I'd be really interested toknow a bit more about the
structure and how you all work,I suppose.
Zohra Mutabanna (08:56):
Yes, absolutely So.
I work for a company calledBlackboard, which is based out
of South Carolina, and I've beenwith this company for two years
And the team I think we areabout 30 writers.
In my entire career I havenever worked with such a large
team.
We have a director And then wehave, i believe, three managers,
(09:16):
and each manager has a set ofyou know, i think a team of six
people six to eight peoplereporting into them.
When I joined the team, ithought, oh my god, how will I
get to know all these people?
Right, but the cool thing waswe had to, within the first, i
think, month, what I did.
(09:36):
This is something that isrecommended, and my manager, who
onboarded me, suggested that Ijust do like a meet and greet.
We are a remote first company,so I'm not going to get to meet
these people.
So one of the things that wedid, or we do, to overcome this
barrier of not knowing yourentire team is to do a meet and
greet.
So I did a meet and greet witheverybody And there was no
(09:59):
timeline to do that, so that wasone of the practices that I
think really helped me to get toknow what each member of the
team does and how we cancollaborate as we progress
further in our careers.
So that was one of the bestpractices that benefited me.
I believe I'm an introvert, butprobably not.
(10:19):
I think the podcast has helpedme, but just interacting with
people, i realized that thereare people on my team who are
people of few words, so I reallyhad to draw information out of
them Over the last two years.
The way the teams have been setup and also the collaboration
tools that we use, like we useSlack, we use Teams.
(10:42):
The one thing that is front andcenter felicity is empathy.
We treat each other withempathy.
We talk about empathy when wetalk about our audience, but the
culture is one of empathy,which I'm so grateful for,
because I've been on teams wherethat's not front and center.
On the team, there is burnout.
(11:04):
Of course, there is alwaysburnout in any profession, but
the empathy that my managers andmy team bring to the table has
helped me work with this teamand learn so much, and I had a
buddy when I started.
We have office hours for UX.
You know there are so manythings that have been done right
.
In my personal opinion, i havebenefited from those best
(11:28):
practices, those industrypractices and just the team
culture.
David Owens is my director andmy manager is Colleen, And my
director has been a guest on mypodcast, you know.
So that tells you howcomfortable I am with, you know,
with the people I report to.
So it's just the team cultureand I think even the company
(11:51):
culture at large.
But I would really speak to myteam culture because those are
the people that I interact withon a day-to-day basis The
product managers that I workwith we have Agile, we use Safe
Product managers, the developerseverybody that I work with have
been very welcoming, very warmand very, very empathetic And
that has helped me be the bestin my authentic self.
Felicity Brand (12:15):
Yeah, i love that and I have a lot of
similarities.
It's so great to hear whenremote first companies get it
right or do things well.
I also am remote.
Well, osp, i suppose, areremote first, where we do have a
headquarters in Cologne inGermany, but I'm in Melbourne,
australia.
We have a distributed team andI think we also have some
(12:37):
practices that make my workinglife really enjoyable and I feel
very connected with everyone inthe team and that's because you
have to work at it.
You can't just do nothing andyou slack and expect there to be
connection.
And you're right about theempathy and we have a gratitude
(12:57):
channel.
So we will celebrate successes,both working and personal.
We'll kind of cheer each otheron, which is really nice.
We have a weekly team meetingwhich occurs in my small hours,
2 or 3 am, so I don't attend.
But what we instituted thisyear was well, i think last year
(13:19):
I said you know, can you recordthat so I can see everyone?
So we did that for a littlewhile and I would get up the
next day and watch the recordingand see everyone's faces and
then I thought, well, they'renot seeing me.
So what we do now is I get upfirst and record my little
section of the meeting and thenwhen everyone comes online to
(13:41):
join the meeting, they all watchme.
So it works for us and I thinkit really helps just have that
face time.
You know people are seeing eachother and it helps make you
feel like a team.
We also do gratitude statementsin our meetings so everyone
will kind of say what they'regrateful for, and it could be in
their personal life or at workand that's just a nice daily
(14:05):
practice to.
I love that, yeah, to help usfeel connected.
And I did just want to say onemore thing about empathy.
So you know, we talk aboutauthentic communication at OSP
and we apply that in the workthat we do, the content we
create.
But we also, you know, it's thefirst place I've worked where
the managers so the co-founders,jam and Tracy they really
(14:27):
practice what they preach, andso we have had moments where
maybe things haven't quite goneright or we'll have discussions
about is this working or have wemade a mistake and how can we
fix that, and it gets reallykind of raw and vulnerable.
But you only grow out of thosekind of discussions And what I
(14:49):
really like about my team isthat we're all kind of lifelong
learners and we're allconstantly trying to get better
and be our best selves and workthe best way we can.
So yeah, you know you can.
People throw the word empathyaround.
It takes work and it ispractice and you have to commit
(15:11):
to it.
I think it's very interesting.
Zohra Mutabanna (15:13):
Oh, definitely, definitely, i think you it's a,
you have to work at it, and ifeverybody has to invest into it,
otherwise it's not going towork.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, I love the great, thegratitude statements that you
talked about.
We do that too.
You know we have a safe zonewhen I can say anything to my
manager.
that again makes me feel verycomfortable in my own skin And
(15:37):
if I, if I make a mistake, iknow I can own it and I'm not
going to be punished for it, butgrow from it.
Felicity Brand (15:43):
Yes, yeah, it's, it's great.
Yeah, it's a wonderful way towork.
I love it.
So you mentioned your largeteam.
I'm curious about processes.
So how do you keep consistencyacross so many people?
Zohra Mutabanna (15:59):
Good question The way the team is structured,
apart from the managers thathave direct reports, there are
leads.
There is a UX lead, there is aaccessibility lead right, and
there are these small teams,right, and anybody can volunteer
to be on those.
So, for example, accessibilityhas a bunch of writers who are
(16:21):
passionate about it And theysort of, i would say, work with
marketing and probably legal toput the standards in place, and
there's immense documentation.
Right, we love to write, but Ithink that is really the core
that drives how we all worktogether, right, right, so we
(16:46):
have a style, style guide.
Felicity Brand (16:48):
For sure Those decisions get documented and
your other writers know.
Then to that.
Zohra Mutabanna (16:54):
Right, yes, and we have.
You know, since I think Imentioned, we use Slack and
there are channels foraccessibility, for help strategy
, for UX, and if you have anyquestions you can just post it
there And then somebody from theteam steps in and, you know,
walks you through it.
Or you can just brainstorm Andif I'm right now working on a UI
(17:14):
copy and I'm actually writingtoast messages, it sounds very
simple but there is a ton ofdocumentation.
But I'm like it would be greatif somebody could just look this
over, or I could justbrainstorm this with anybody on
my team I can reach out to andask if they have the time.
If not, i can take it to officehours and I can share.
So you have to be a littlegutsy sometimes if you want to
(17:37):
do that And a bunch of teammembers will come on, come to
office hours and they will.
They'll give their feedback.
I won't say they critique it,they give their feedback.
So it's again because empathyis at its core of all these
discussions.
I personally do not hesitate toreach out, ask for help.
So it's just the whole culture,the whole dynamic that has set
me up, so the system is set me.
(17:58):
Setting me up for success?
is, i think, what I'm trying toget to?
Felicity Brand (18:02):
Yes, yes, i love that, So I did want to move on,
but I just wanted to ask onequick question about your office
hours.
So I have not heard that.
Can you just explain how thatworks?
Zohra Mutabanna (18:13):
Absolutely.
For example, i've talked aboutUX, user experience.
Right, i'm writing UI copy.
I'm working with the designerand the product manager to write
UI copy.
Now, it could be one simplelanding page or it could be
multiple.
It could be a wizard.
So just just pick anythingright.
And let's say, i'm writing copyand I'm struggling with it, So
(18:34):
these office hours are justpenciled in.
They're standing meetings everyweek, so I can bring anything
that I'm struggling with to theoffice hours and I can say Hey,
guys and gals, i'm strugglingwith this.
Or I have come up with thiscopy.
What do you all think?
Does this align with our tone,our voice, our style?
What kind of suggestions canyou give?
(18:56):
And there is, like I said, ourUX lead runs that meeting.
Anybody can run that meeting.
But we have Roxana who runsthat meeting and we can come
with any question that isrelated to user experience And
Roxana will give her tips, butanybody can give their feedback.
So it becomes like a teameffort at that point.
And I know that if nobody'savailable let's say it's a busy
(19:18):
week for everybody on my teamsomebody or the other is always
available to help me out, but ifI have a tech question.
There's somebody who is a techgeek on my team.
I can reach out to them.
So I can just tap intoeverybody and I don't take it
personally if they say, hey, i'mnot available right away.
And we also try to respect eachother's timings.
We put it on their calendar tomake sure that people have focus
time, but these office hoursallow us to really bring our
(19:42):
questions and talk about it,whatever that is in that
allocated hour.
Felicity Brand (19:46):
Yeah, i love that.
It's something that I miss.
working remote is being in kindof a busy cross-functional team
where you can just walk up topeople's desks and someone else
might over here and you'll endup having a little huddle
discussion about a feature orwriting.
So you have to work harder atthat when you're remote to try
and facilitate thoseconversations to happen.
(20:08):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (20:09):
And I think the channels that we have the Slack
channels kind of I think try tomimic that where I post
something and there's thischatter and anybody can jump in.
Of course there's nothing getsclose to in-person interactions
but, the culture.
This collaborative culturedefinitely lends itself to being
(20:31):
more productive andcollaborative.
Felicity Brand (20:33):
Yes.
So let's talk about the subjecton everyone's lips AI, and I
know you've been speaking to afew people lately who and you've
been talking about this topicof AI and generative content, so
I'd like to know what are yourthoughts at the moment.
Are you feeling cautiouslyoptimistic?
Are you excited?
(20:54):
Are you worried?
Cautiously optimistic?
Zohra Mutabanna (20:56):
You said it Exactly, exactly, that I'm
cautiously optimistic.
I think somebody mentioned onsome webinar being a techno
optimist, and that's exactlywhat I am, but I'm very cautious
about it.
One day I wake up and I'm likeAI cannot replace me.
And I wake up the next day andI'm like, oh, ai is definitely
going to replace me.
(21:17):
So I think we are all kind ofteaching on that And I think
it's going to be that way untilthere is going to be some
regulation put into place.
Felicity Brand (21:27):
I read an interesting article yesterday
that was talking about that theidea of garbage in, garbage out
but also saying that at themoment, while we still need tech
writers, perhaps we need to bethinking about writing not just
for our human readers, but alsobeing aware, as we write, that
it could be an AI that'sconsuming this to then spit it
(21:48):
out later.
So I thought that was a reallyinteresting kind of way to frame
it, and I wondered how youmight write differently knowing
that an AI is going to beconsuming it.
I wondered about structuredcontent, or I didn't actually
have any answers, but I thoughtthat's so interesting.
Zohra Mutabanna (22:05):
When I think about garbage and garbage out
and I think you framed thatreally well we need to start
thinking about not just a humanaudience, but AI as our audience
as well.
The one thing that I worryabout is bias and inaccuracies.
In my perspective, those aretwo things.
That I would be focusing on isthe bias, because that is one
(22:28):
thing that is in our control,and the less we feed that into
the dataset, the better theoutput will be from the AI.
Felicity Brand (22:35):
Yeah, we should dig into that.
Personally, i have been usingchat GPT for fun and for a
little bit of a leg up in mywork.
At the moment We use it as atool where we're mindfully
researching it and we're goingto try and embrace it to the
extent that it can be helpful tous.
(22:57):
I don't think that we arerunning scared and I don't think
that we're afraid for our jobs.
It is really useful, andparticularly any of the manual
or tedious parts of writing andtechnical writing that it can do
.
I'm all for that.
Use a tool to help you do theboring bits so that you can
(23:17):
focus on the fun parts or thecreative parts or the parts that
you really can add value.
As we know, it has shortcomingsat the moment.
I suspect that's probably goingto be improved very quickly.
But, yeah, i think it behoovesus to be aware of it and to pay
attention to it so that we'renot scrambling to catch up.
Zohra Mutabanna (23:40):
I used bot today to do my research, for
actually to prep myself on whatis AI, what is under the hood?
if I had to explain that,definitely, bard is integrated
with the Google search.
The data set is more current,unlike ChatGPT.
But until this point I havebeen exclusively been using
(24:02):
ChatGPT, probably just becauseit's been available.
I think the experience is verysimilar with both tools.
But I think you're right,chatgpt is.
Its data set is not verycurrent, so you have to be
mindful of that.
But with Bard, that worry goesaway.
But it's just the way they werespitting out data.
I was not very happy with it.
(24:24):
For example, i asked Bard canyou tell me in a very
non-technical way what is AI?
And the explanation it spit outto me was pretty long and
verbose.
I think ChatGPT did a betterjob of that.
Same question, the same prompt,the exact same prompt.
Chatgpt gave a better answer, ithink.
At the end of the day, theseare all tools that we are going
to end up using And we have tobe mindful of those tools.
(24:47):
I'm using ChatGPT to.
I just put in a prompt.
I want to learn how to use theopen AI API to build a Chatbot.
So it gave me a bunch of stepsAnd then I said, well, i don't
have the time to do this.
Can you simplify it for me andcreate a training plan that
(25:08):
spans over five days?
And it did that.
So it's like a conversation,it's iterative, you work on your
prompts And I've actuallycreated a training plan for
myself that I'm going to putinto practice.
So my company has these dayscalled Tech Thursdays once a
month, where you get the wholeday to experiment and do what
you want.
It could be anything.
You can learn a tool, you cantry something new.
(25:31):
It's your time, it's forprofessional development.
So the way I've created thatplan is to see how I can use
those eight hours to build aChatbot by the end of the day.
So let's see what happens, butit's come up with an amazing
training plan for me.
So anybody that feels the coolthing about these AI tools is
(25:51):
you can ask them how do I useyou Right, i think and this is
not me saying.
Somebody else actuallymentioned this And I started
thinking about it with Googlesearch.
You didn't know how to useGoogle search.
With these AI tools, you canask them how do I use you And
they teach you how to use them.
Felicity Brand (26:08):
Isn't that cool.
This is getting a bit meta.
I'm a bit.
All right, Zohra, let's getinto the lightning round.
Let's see if we can do somerapid fire questions And I'll
see if I can answer them too,just to share the love.
So what's one kind ofcommunication you wish you could
do better?
First, waste of communication.
(26:30):
Yeah, i think for me I'd sayspeaking Okay, who is a
communicator who inspires you?
Zohra Mutabanna (26:39):
If I had to, pick, it would be my dad.
Oh, why is that?
He is no more, But when he wasborn in India and he went to a
vernacular medium, So hiseducation was not.
His primary education was notin English, But by the time I
came into his life I would havenever known that he was not
English educated.
So he just became my role modelAnd he spoke several languages.
(27:03):
So I think you know he was abig influence.
Felicity Brand (27:08):
That's fantastic .
I'm always.
I am monolingual.
I'm always impressed by peoplewho can speak multiple languages
.
What's one thing you wish youknew about tech writing when you
were getting started?
That's a tricky one, becauseyou've had such a long history,
so the industry has probablychanged.
Zohra Mutabanna (27:30):
Yes, if somebody had told me that
technical writing is going tochange and you'll have to
constantly pivot, that wouldhave been awesome, because I got
into thinking you're just doingthis documentation.
The vision of this professionis you're working in silos.
That's not true.
I thought all I would do is sitand write, but it's 20% writing
(27:53):
and 80% talking to people.
Yes, it's not a profession thatis very conducive, i think, for
introverts, because you reallyhave to push yourself.
Yes, many students that Imentor think that I will be on
my own and I don't have to worryabout anybody and I say I'm
(28:14):
sorry, but that is not going tobe your experience.
Felicity Brand (28:17):
Yes, i can agree with that one that you.
I got into it for the writing,but you're so right when you say
that writing is not themajority of what we do.
Yes, absolutely.
You work remote, as do I.
What's your favorite piece ofhardware in your home office
setup?
Zohra Mutabanna (28:37):
I'm really not much of a gadget person, but if
I had to pick one thing, i wouldthink it's the camera, because
it allows me to see the peoplethat I'm talking to.
I do not like to talk to peoplewithout the camera on.
That would be my favorite pieceof equipment.
Felicity Brand (28:56):
Yes, i like that .
My favorite is my standing desk.
I've got an electric standingdesk so it can go up and down
whenever I choose.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:04):
You know what?
Can I change my answer?
I love my standing desk morethan my camera.
Felicity Brand (29:09):
Do you have an anti fatigue standing mat?
I do Yes, my manager highlyrecommended it.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:17):
I did not have it but thanks to Colleen I got
it.
Felicity Brand (29:21):
Highly recommend .
One last word to describe youas a communicator.
Zohra Mutabanna (29:27):
You know what I'm going to take your
compliment, the active listenerpart.
I think that has become mystrength since I've been
podcasting.
Yes, i love it.
You have to listen to become abetter communicator.
Felicity Brand (29:43):
Yeah, that's so great.
I don't think I can describeone word to describe me as a
communicator, enthusiastic.
That's all I got.
I think that we can probablywrap up now.
Zohra, is there anything thatwe haven't talked about that you
thought we might cover today?
Zohra Mutabanna (30:02):
AI was on top of my mind and working remote.
Those are the two topics that Iwanted to talk about.
I will say this Those companiesthat think being remote takes
away from the experience.
I think I've benefited morebeing in-person teams, because
there can be a lot of toxicitythere.
Honestly, i work better and I'mmore productive when I'm away
(30:28):
from that sort of toxicity.
Of course, one thing I wouldlike to say is for all technical
communicators that are outthere grab your seat at the
table and try to involveyourself as early on in the
process as you can upstream,because that is going to empower
you and that's going to be youradvantage And be open to AI
(30:51):
tools.
Just be curious, and that'swhat we do.
We are always learning, andthat's how we should approach AI
as well.
Felicity Brand (30:59):
Yes, i absolutely agree.
Yes, where can we find you?
Where can people go to listento your podcast?
Zohra Mutabanna (31:07):
I have a website.
It's inside techcomm.
show.
Many people think it's in site,but it's inside.
You can grab my latest episodesfrom there.
I'm also an actor on LinkedIn.
I would love for people toconnect with me because I'm a
(31:27):
lifelong learner and I alwayslearn from people, so I would
invite people to connect with me.
Felicity Brand (31:32):
Yes, and we'll put those links in our show
notes And I thoroughly recommendyour podcast and I really
enjoyed the episode aboutcontent research.
That was fascinating and I wasremembering happy times at my
former job where my fellow techwriter and I were embedded in
the UX team and we had anaccount with user testingcom,
(31:58):
which isa quite expensive tooland it is amazing, and so, of
course, the UX designers wereusing that tool to test all
their features that they wantedto test.
But we as tech writers got touse it as well so we could do A
B testing on some languagechoices.
We were creating a new wizardand we could step the users
(32:19):
through the pages of the wizard.
It was so good and you got therecording of the user.
That's fantastic, like talkingthrough where.
Oh yeah, it was gold.
So I really loved listening toyour guest talking about content
research and I really recommendall the tech writers out there
try and test their docs if theyhave the opportunity.
Zohra Mutabanna (32:41):
I think that's great advice.
Absolutely Content researchneeds to be done.
Felicity Brand (32:46):
I was going to say yeah, and that kind of taps
into what you were talking aboutearlier about bias and how we
really need to have high qualitydocs if they're going into that
.
Ai or, like LLMs, largelanguage models, only through
testing through users andfinding out what your effective
content is, is what's going togive you high quality content
(33:08):
into an AI system.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:10):
No, that's an interesting perspective,
absolutely, i think, you know.
Felicity Brand (33:13):
But who has the time?
No one's going to fund thatZohra.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:17):
I know, you know what.
That's why we are here.
That's why we are here toadvocate for content.
Felicity Brand (33:22):
Well, i've really enjoyed talking with you
today, thank you.
People can find out about OSPat openstrategypartnerscom.
We would love for you to listento our podcast.
I hope to see you around, Zohra.
I know that we're both in Rightthe Docs, so perhaps we can
catch up there someday soon,absolutely.
Zohra Mutabanna (33:42):
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Thank you.
Carl Richards (34:18):
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this
podcast, all the P's at OSP,thanks to our clients who
believe in us.
Shout out to Patrick Gaumontfor our high-energy maple syrup
flavored theme music And to MikeSnow for additional horn
arrangements.
Thank you for listening andsubscribing.
About our three themes on thepodcast, you'll hear from
(34:41):
different members of the OSPteam hosting episodes over time.
Communicate All things.
communication We share how wetackle writing, editing, word
choices, formats, processes andmore.
Connect In-depth conversationswith interesting, smart people
about who they are, what they doand how they approach their
(35:03):
life and work as communicators,technologists and leaders.
Grow We cover strategicapproaches to understanding and
expressing the value of what youdo, including tools, templates
and practical applications.
We also feel strongly aboutbuilding a mindful, positive,
human first culture at work.
(35:23):
That's bound to pop up fromtime to time too.
This podcast is us figuring outcommunication, connection and
growing together.
Subscribe now on YouTube, applePodcast or the podcast channel
of your choice.
Follow us, suggest guests andtopics.
Ask us questions on socialmedia.
(35:44):
We are at Open UnderscoreStrategy on Twitter Until next
time.
Thanks for listening toCommunicate Connect Grow The OSP
Podcast.
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