July 18, 2023 • 44 mins
In this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn Kim Clark interviews her friend and Professor of RTVF at San Jose University, Kimb Massey. Kimb has taught media for half of her career and believes we are all part of a culture; family, vocational, fandom etc. Massey challenges us to think about our media consumption and pay attention to the fact that a lot of what we want is because the media tells us what we want. We must make sure our intention matches our impact and use our critical thinking skills in the discussion around the visibility of race in the mass media. It is not enough to be non-racist - we must be anti-racist.
About The Guest:
Kimberly Massey, Ph.D. (she/her) is a Professor of Radio-Television-Film (RTVF) at San Jose State University. She is a tireless advocate for media reporting and representation of truth, fairness, and diversity, equity, inclusion. Dr. Massey has written numerous communication conference papers and published several communication articles, books, and book chapters.
Find Kimb Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Episode Transcript
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Kim Clark (00:00):
Yay. Hi, hi. Hi. This is a really special episode for
(00:04):
me. I have known Dr. KimberlyMassey for 30 years, right, like
the early 90s. Right? Yeah. Andwe have find found all kinds of
excuses to cross paths,personally and professionally.
And this is one of thoseopportunities where I can tap
(00:26):
into your great depth ofknowledge as a full professor at
San Jose State University. Andyou contributed an article to
the book that I co authored theconscious communicator. We're
gonna get to that in just asecond. But welcome, thank you
for being here. Tell it tell ustell everybody a little bit
(00:48):
about yourself.
Kimb Massey (00:50):
Well, I'm Kim Massey, I'm a professor at San
Jose State, as Kim mentioned,and I'm Kim's professor. So
that's really the biggest lineon my resume. I've been studying
the media thinking about themedia and teaching Media and
Culture my entire adult life. Istudied as an undergrad at UT
(01:13):
Austin and got my degree inradio television film there went
on to San Francisco State to geta master's in broadcast
education, communication, andthen on my doctorate in
Communication at the Universityof Utah. So literally my entire
adult life, I've been talkingabout the media.
Kim Clark (01:33):
And you mentioned the media and culture. So what do
you mean by that? Whatrelationship Are you are you
talking about that is superfascinating that you've
dedicated your whole career to?
Unknown (01:42):
Well, everybody belongs to culture. And there's a
million different kinds ofculture, whether you're aware of
it or not, there's the cultureof a family and what being a
father means and a mother or asister, brother, being a
grandmother being a nurse. Sothere's vocational cultures,
there's fandom, like, I'm a bigsteam fan. So there's a whole
(02:06):
culture around stealing, andbeing a San Francisco Giants
fan, or whatever. There's race,culture, nationalist culture,
and any one of us all of us are.So there's an amalgam of all
these different cultures, basedupon where we grew up, or how
(02:26):
old we are, or how we wereraised, or what our belief
system is, which party we votefor whatever it is, maybe we
don't vote, that's also aculture. So it's a culture of
physical realities, for example,you know, like, what we look
like, and what wouldn't, wherewe live those sort of physical
(02:53):
realities, but it's alsoconstructed realities. And that
is like, like being a fan orbelieving in God, or whatever it
is, right? So the media morethan anything else, on, you
know, in all of the cultures allaround the world, affects what
those cultures are, whenever newones come on the scene, and what
(03:17):
they mean, they define theprovide the definitions for what
all of these cultures mean. Andpeople will say, well, they
don't do they're not the mostpowerful influence, but they
really are the media that weconsume, especially as
Americans, we consume media morethan we do anything else. We
consume media more than wesleep, we consume media more
(03:38):
than we have dinner with ourfamilies, more time than the
time we spend with our families.So because we consume and engage
in media so much, it isstatistically impossible,
especially with all the messagescoming through the media over
and over again, repetitively,the same messages over and over
again, for us to not be affectedby it. And the challenge is that
(04:03):
everybody knows this, but nobodybelieves it. I've been talking
about the same media effects andculture defining what culture is
getting people to realize allthe different cultures that they
belong to, and how some of thecultural rules that they have to
(04:24):
follow, they didn't even get tonegotiate, especially in
diversity, equity and inclusion.They didn't even get to
negotiate what it is to beblack, or to be seen as black by
a white system or whatever itis, right. And even though I
tell people you were allaffected by media people, like
Yeah, but not me so much. Imean, I know I am. So therefore,
(04:46):
how effective can I be? And thenI have to point out, you know,
you're wearing a New York Giantsor New York, Yankees hat and
those are Nike shoes and you'redressed like a students wear
What does that mean? What'sappropriate clothing for women
to wear, what's not appropriateclothing, you know all of this.
(05:07):
And all of a sudden, they beginto realize that they are
products of their own culturalupbringings.
Kim Clark (05:20):
There's a class that you and I have both taught. And
I know you're you're kind offading into the sunset, as far
as your career is concerned as aprofessor, but I, I teaching
online now, but there's a classthat both you and I have taught,
that is kind of a it's a GElevel, I believe, and people,
(05:41):
you know, students from alldifferent kinds of majors will
come in and take this media,it's basic, it's a basic media
criticism class, right? And acouple of the assignments that
some of SE th the sections, talkabout one is, take a take note
of all the products that you'veconsumed in a day, just write
(06:03):
them all down, and for whatpurpose and like, what's the
brand? And then your analysis atthe end of that is to say, Okay,
well, first, you're alsosupposed to figure out what your
culture group is. And so Asiansdon't have the introspection,
they actually don't know whatthe assignment is asking of
them. They've never been askedthat question of what culture
(06:24):
group, they may go to race, theymay go to religion, but they're
advertising in marketing peoplecan, you know, figure out a
cultural group in a second, theycan predict everything around
the products that that aparticular cultural group will
gravitate towards? Right? That'sthe science of it. And then the
analysis is did do you seeyourself being marketed to in
(06:46):
these products, that is oneassignment, the following
assignment is taking an eyechallenge, and invite any
audience member to do this foryour own, you know, self
awareness, to take three daysoff from media, like take three
days off, we call it a mediadiet, and then see where your
(07:10):
time goes, when you're notscrolling on Instagram, for
example, when you're, you know,whatever it may be watching
things on YouTube, etc. And whatI find interesting is this
relationship between those twoassignments, what the last
question in the media dietassignment is around, Willie,
(07:31):
basically, will you return toyour natural Yeah, insistency.
Unknown (07:36):
Right away, they will far and away, far away, they're
very interesting, not affected,
Kim Clark (07:42):
right. So there's, in those two assignments, were
trying to drill in criticalthinking, right, and you know,
around exposure, and thenormalization of media use and
the definition of their owncultural group, as defined, and
by media and advertising andstuff, and they still don't get
(08:02):
it.
Unknown (08:03):
What's interesting is that when it first came out,
when media, especiallytelevision was first invented,
there was a lot of concern aboutmedia effects, because we had
come out of World War Two. Andbecause Hitler had done such an
incredible job of PR, right, hewould stage these amazing epic
(08:24):
events, and then put them as thesort of before the movie shorts
with when you would go to themovie theater, and all of these
sort of villages that werereally remote. But go to
everybody went to the movies onSaturday, we've seen these epic
events, and we're believinglike, oh, well, the whole
country field believes this. Soit must be like a good thing,
(08:45):
you know? With Yes, a wholeunderground of exceptions. But
you can see that why the concernexisted is because if you can,
if you can win the minds of thepublic mind, then you could
actually start a war or takeover the world, right? I mean,
and that's just anunderstatement of what has
actually happened, really. Butnow not so much. I mean, I think
(09:10):
if you are feeding yourchildren, and they want to eat
ice cream all day long, you sayto them, Well, yeah, we can have
ice cream, but that's like adessert. And that's, that's a
special and really what we gotto do is get to your broccoli,
you know, we got to eat somevegetables and some
micronutrients and all that andthen we can have ice cream. But
when it comes to media, peopledon't seem to understand that
(09:32):
every minute that their kids areon, online or on they're
consuming, they're consumingsomething right and most of the
messages are put together tosell. Not just to sell you a
product like lipstick or mascaraor shampoo, but to sell you a
meaning. right to sell you whatit is to be a beautiful woman
(09:59):
for example, Whoa. So so many ofmy students, whenever they write
down, you know, everything theyuse from the time they wake up
to the time they step out thedoor for women a lot of its
makeup. And they have to writein Why do you use this? And they
are and their responses are verycandid, it makes me feel good.
It makes me feel good to lookgood. And well, who wouldn't
(10:22):
feel good if they look good? Butthen I come back with a question
of why is having longereyelashes attractive? Who to
define that? Why is havingwhiter teeth, or straighter
teeth, or pink cheeks? Or any ofthe other makeup? Things like
poreless? I mean, we are humanbeings, we have hair growing
everywhere. And we have, youknow, eyelashes that get thinner
(10:46):
when you get older and whateverit is. Why, who decided that? I
didn't get to negotiate that. Ididn't. Nobody ever sat me down.
Whenever I was an agent said,Okay, we're taking a vote in
your age group, you're 18. Nowyou can vote. What how fat can
women be and still be attract?Nobody ever asked me. I was born
(11:09):
into this. And this isn't beingdriven by people, people. This
is being driven by people whoare trying to sell products to
make you believe that havingshort eyelashes is less
attractive than if you hadlonger ones. And then you start
using mascara. And then you thefeedback is that people will go
oh, she's you know, she's prettyattractive. And it brings you
(11:32):
comfort, safety, satisfaction,and even pleasure from engaging
in these activities. You know, Ihad a conversation with my
daughter about monogamy. Right?And her generation think about
monogamy differently than mygeneration. Of course they do. I
(11:53):
mean, every generation isdifferent. And she said, Well, I
don't I don't really understand,you know, why, like monogamy
after monogamy, because then ifyou get married or divorced, and
you remarry you, you're reallyjust a serial monogamist are
like that. And I laughed. And Isaid, because it brings me
pleasure. It brings me pleasureto think about only being with
(12:14):
one person. And why is that?Because that's the way I was
raised. Maybe if I had beenraised in a different culture,
where I don't know. But I that'swhat I always believed in. And
so that's, you know, I likethat, you know, I'm, you know,
Tammy Wynette, stand by your mankind of, you know, and I fight
it as a feminist. I'm like, Idon't need it. And I don't. But
(12:37):
whether I need it or not, isirrelevant to my actions,
because it's what do I want, andwhat you want, nine times out of
10, if not, 10 times out of 10is based upon culture. And
unfortunately, for the DEI,portion of this conversation,
the media and the images and thedefinitions, and the
(13:00):
representations have beendominated by money. And by race.
You know, so the same storiesare getting told over and over
again. Black stories that didn'tinvolve blacks being maids and
butlers and servants that helpcharacters or, or sort of
(13:25):
characters that were clowns, youknow, they're there for the
entertainment of, of whitepeople. That didn't happen until
the African American communitywere seen as economically viable
people to market to, then all ofa sudden, you had sitcoms that
were directed to the blackcommunity dealing with, you
(13:46):
know, talking about blackissues, then you had Bill Cosby
being a doctor and his wife, alawyer, then and only then when,
when the market was deemedeconomically viable to be spoken
to, then they got a chair at thetable. Right.
Kim Clark (14:04):
And there's a lot of conversation over the last few
years and still to this dayaround digital blackface, for
example, the use of memes andGIFs, and everything, where it's
this exploitation, exploitationof black joy in a lot of ways,
but used by white people to seemcooler, etc. And so look it up
(14:28):
folks, you know, have theconversation, look at what
you're sharing on social and thecultural culture that you're a
part of, versus the culture thatyou're putting out there in a
digital space. And what's yourintention with that? And I can
guarantee you that yourintention is that matching the
impact does especially dependingon the audience, so you
(14:49):
contributed an article, thankyou for the millions time for
contributing this article to ourbook. And the deeper dive topic
is called the influence ofstereotypes, right? Can you read
a little bit, the ending of yourarticle there and then talk
about what you were trying toconvey to those who read the
(15:12):
book?
Unknown (15:13):
Yeah, I'm going to start a little bit higher than
the ending just a tiny bit. Inthe end, it isn't enough to hold
media producers accountable, itcomes down to what we as
individual audience members, andgroups do. The public needs to
recognize that we have choices,but then we need to follow up by
(15:35):
making good ones. If peoplechoose to be passive consumers
of media not questioning themeaning oriented meeting occurs,
all of society must live withthe adverse consequences and
some more than others.Conversely, if people recognize
their power and agency bybecoming an active audience,
(15:56):
member and or producerthemselves, we can demand
diverse content, we can strivefor as many perspectives as
possible. And we can questionand develop our own
interpretation of media content,based upon our life experience,
our education, family andcultural influences, we can
learn that the system doesn'twork without us. If we back away
(16:19):
the relationship and demandsDei, especially joined with many
others, media will be forced toaddress our concerns and needs.
And finally, we need to bediligently. We need to
diligently monitor ourconsumption behaviors, be
skeptical, engage in criticalthinking, slow down, check and
(16:40):
separate facts from opinion, andcheck the origin or context or
purpose of all information,before we share it together. And
only together, we can sociallyconstruct a better reality by
making it true every time weengage with media and with each
other. Yeah, that's the thing,you know, it's a, it is a I
(17:08):
mean, I always use the metaphorof a drug deal. It's a drug
deal. You got a drug dealer witha product, that's the drug and
somebody's buying it. And ifthere's no product, there's no
exchange, right. And we are theproduct that has been bought and
sold between media andadvertisers media are getting us
(17:32):
to the screens with content,whether it's a Netflix movie, or
you know, a network televisionshow or a series or YouTube
video or a meme or an Instagrampost, whatever it is. They they
drive us to the screens, theybring us to the screens, and
(17:54):
then they hand us over with allof our demographic information
to advertisers who custom buildnow, ads to appear on your
social media or on your screens,or whatever. So if we remove
ourselves as the product, thedrug deal can't occur, right,
the exchange can't occur. Sowhen we consume, we're present,
(18:17):
and when we don't consume wearen't. And if we demand better
quality, they will deliver itbecause if not their competitors
will and we'll go to thosescreens. And my students are
always like, but we're so we'rejust individuals, and these
corporations are so big, and I'mlike McDonald's sells salad.
McDonald's sells salad. Now, ifyou had bet me a billion dollars
(18:41):
in my lifetime, becauseMcDonald's was invented in my
lifetime, when I was a littlegirl, that McDonald's was ever
going to sell a salad, I wouldhave taken that bet and lost it.
Because people were like, We gotto start like eating also green
things we can't just be eatingbut you know, whatever. And all
of a sudden McDonald's so salad.So we do have the power. They we
(19:02):
just don't know it and theydon't want us to know it. So the
only thing I can think of to dois to educate people about their
own power, their own culturalpower, their own consumptive
power. And the more active weare and the more demanding we
are, the more we're gonna getwhat we want. But if we don't
(19:23):
ask, and we don't demand,they're gonna give us whatever
they think we deserve.
Kim Clark (19:29):
Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You
mentioned in the articlecritical thinking and social
construction. So so that socialconstruction of reality is a
media theory.
Unknown (19:42):
Right? Can you speak to? It's my favorite one, right?
Kim Clark (19:46):
What's that?
Unknown (19:47):
It's my favorite media theory is my favorite
Kim Clark (19:49):
tale. Can you speak to how groups and populations
have been stereotyped? You know,you've mentioned some examples,
if you can add some moreexamples, and that narrative
that's being pushed, that'sbeing normalized. And how that
(20:12):
relates to the theory of social,basically, what it what is
social construction of reality?And how does it show up? And
what role does media I mean,critical thinking play as an
antidote?
Unknown (20:26):
That's a great question. I feel Um, well,
social construction of realityis that reality is whatever we
all agree it is. A good example,would be money, right? I go into
a store and I hand somebody apiece of paper that's really
made out of cloth that hasspecial ink on it that the Fed
(20:48):
printed. And that piece of paperis supposed to represent 100,
pennies, four quarters, 10,dimes, whatever. And I'm
supposed to be able to hand itto somebody and say, give me
that food or whatever that candybar, I'll take that candy bar,
although nothing costs $1anymore, but you get the point.
Right? And that person has totake the money legally, because
it's legal tender. And we've allagreed that it used to represent
(21:12):
gold in Fort Knox. But now Idon't know what it represents.
Because it depends on themarket, right? But we all agree
that it does. So it could beseashells, it could be sunflower
seeds, whatever we agree isworth money is worth trade, that
and we all agreed and that'swhat it's going to be. And it's
(21:32):
the same with cultural stuff andwith defining of groups. So if
you have a stereotype, let's sayan Asian stereotype, women,
Asian women are eithercompletely virginal, right, or
they're dragon ladies in theirheads of cartels. They seem to
(21:52):
be stereotyped to have all thesesexual secrets, you know, and
all of this stuff, when when youand and you know, quiet and they
don't argue and they keep theirheads down, they bow a lot.
These are all stereotypes, baddrivers, right? All of these are
stereotypes. Does that mean thatthere aren't some people that
are bad drivers? Yeah, but I'veseen a lot of other bad drivers
(22:15):
from all walks of life, old,young, any race drivers can be
bad, right? So you get thesestereotypes, and they go out
there, and then you meet anAsian person, person, and you're
not Asian, okay, you meet anAsian person. First of all, as a
white privilege person, I wouldmeet an Asian person. And
(22:38):
there's all kinds of cues comingat me before I ever open my
mouth and introduce myself. I'mlooking at this Asian person.
And I'm like, what kind of Asianperson is this? Well, Asian
people will tell you that theycan. They can tell the
difference between eightdifferent kinds of Asians but
but Asians in the language arejust sort of lumped under this
category of Asian when there'sall kinds of diversity going on
(23:01):
different languages, differentlocations, same locations, but
different languages, customs,traditions, food, the whole
shebang. But they're all lumpedinside this one category. So I
meet somebody new. And my son isa half Asian, my stepson, his
half Asian, and it wasfascinating, but terrible, at
(23:22):
the same time to watch peopleengage him. Because they would
say, Where's your mother, and bereally mean to him. And he'd
point to me, and I'm a white,blond woman. And he said, That's
my mother. And then the wholestory would change. The whole
the way they treated him the waythey thought about him. Oh,
(23:42):
you're so wonderful, Kim, youmust have adopted a Chinese
child. And I'd say I didn'tadopt anybody. He's my stepson.
And he's Korean. Right? So thesemessages that come to you
through the media and thestories that are told over and
over again, stereotypes that aregiven to you are some times
oftentimes, the only experiencea lot of people have of other.
(24:08):
Right. So when they engage inwith people that they don't have
a lot of contact with, theyalready think that they
understand who that person is.And and they have zero idea,
because the stereotypes do notrepresent everyone in in
(24:29):
different categories. They justthey aren't there. They're short
cut storytelling plots, becausethey only have 30 minutes to
tell a story or an hour or anhour and a half, unless it's a
mini series and then it'sdivided up into those amounts,
right. So that's why the dumbwoman is a busty blonde and
(24:51):
that's why the serious woman isa bookish brunette. And that's
why you know, Who are thejudges? Who are the criminals?
Who, who's smart, who's not, youknow, older people are always
sort of The Golden Girls. Youknow? People always, like older
women are a little bit flightyand scattered. And I'm like, not
(25:15):
be Arthur like, and she was,like plastic and biting and had
an incredible sense of humor andwit, but I guess they're more
thinking about Betty White orsomething, I don't know. So the
stereotypes really make itterrible for and those are just
(25:38):
funny little examples, littlewhite privilege examples. I
mean, stereotypes can mean thedifference between people having
their partners in the room whenthey're hospitalized, making
life decisions for them and theLGBTQ plus coming community or
being able to buy a house in aneighborhood, if you're Jewish,
(26:01):
or if you're black, or if you'reLatino or whatever, right, if
you're a person that is notwhite privileged. So it's the it
isn't just Well, you shouldn'tbe watching that show. Because
it's really not good. No, youshouldn't be watching that show
because it perpetuates negativestereotypes that have real
(26:22):
consequence. for groups ofpeople in really incredible
ways. You can also be white men,can I say for the record, it can
also be white men, which is Iget a lot of pushback from my,
in my classes from white mengoing, Are we just going to be
(26:42):
the villains forever. So well,you're not necessarily always
the villains, but you are alsoaffected. And shootings are the
era one of the best areas I cantell you. Especially school
shootings. If it were if it wereyoung girls, or any person of
color that's doing all theshootings, like if, if shooting
(27:05):
after shooting after shootingthe West Asian young boys, this
country will be asking what isgoing on with Asian young boys,
that they're going into theschools and shooting people?
Right? If it was women thinkback to Thelma and Louise,
right? How many movies have youseen where men are just shooting
each other and killing eachother and godfather and cop
(27:28):
shows and nobody seemed to care.But when two women did it in a
movie that was super popular? Ohmy goodness, the media came out
saying you know what is what isup with? Like, why is everybody
watching this movie about thesewomen shooting people? And I'm
like, because we've beenwatching men shoot people since
the cowboy and Indian movies.You know, from the start, what's
(27:48):
the big deal? If women weregoing in and shooting up?
Schools, they would say what isgoing on in America with these
little girls? What kind ofcrisis are we in? But it isn't
nobody's talking about the whiteyoung male crisis. And 99% of
all the school shootings aredone by white boys, we should be
(28:12):
having that conversation. Weshould and I tell my white male
students, identifying malestudents at that I say this
would help you. A majority ofcrime that's committed in this
country is again is man on mancry. It's not man on women
crime. It's man on man crime.You know, men are dying at the
(28:35):
hands of other men. There is acrisis of masculinity in the
country, but we don't talk aboutit because they're the majority.
And they're and they're incharge. So they're the more
invisible under the criticallens. Right? When you think
minority when you thinkminority, you think woman or
(28:58):
person of color. Right? Youdon't think white male because
they're not a minority. Right?So they're invisible to the
lens, because we're talkingabout these issues of a hair of
the minorities when you thinkgender. What do you think LGBTQ
plus or women? But what youdon't think is white
(29:18):
heterosexual male? Right? Well,they have a gender. So why
aren't we talking about that?Because white, almost white
heterosexual is not it is incharge. Right? So that that's
invisible. And white, white as arace is is more invisible.
(29:44):
Right? Because it's even thoughwe talk about race if we talk
about race, critical race theoryeven but race, white, it doesn't
seem to be under the lens,right? And so anytime there's a
group that's invisible, as theNo arm are the mainstream or
this is the way it should be, oreverything's compared off of
(30:05):
that. That's when you know, whois the majority? And who is in
control? Because they're notunder the critical lens? It's
very interesting.
Kim Clark (30:15):
Very interesting. Yeah. When you alluded to one of
the ways that I describe it toclients is, there's the founding
fathers of the United States,the characteristics of the
founding fathers, that is, thathas been normalized as the
standard from which everythingelse is compared. Now, the
farther away you are, when youget into intersectionality, of
(30:37):
identities of marginalizedidentities, the farther away you
are from the Founding Fatherscharacteristics, the more
vulnerable and at risk andmarginalized you are, because in
society, we have created thishierarchy of value based on
these identities in comparisonto what is considered, you know,
(30:59):
the standard, the rideability.Very interesting.
Unknown (31:04):
It is very interesting, because I'm always asking that
question, when people bring upthings to me, and they're
talking, you know, aboutwhatever privilege or whatever.
And I'm always saying, Well,yeah, but we have to remember
that we're all in this together,that white males also have
gender and white males also haverace and white males also, you
(31:25):
know, whatever. Somehow oranother. I don't know how, but
you know, I think it goes in,in, in waves and troughs, up and
down, up and down, we have toconvince people that it is in
their best interest. It is ineveryone's best interest to
(31:47):
think about ramifications thataffect all of us. I mean, global
warming is a perfect example ofthat in the in the planetary
realm, right? If you, if you'rewasting stuff, and you're living
a less than ideal, recyclablelife, or whatever, it's the
tipping point, everybody needsto get in this together, because
(32:08):
we're all in it together. But ifthe privileged whoever they are,
they could be white, they couldbe whatever, if the privilege
but just realize that it'd behooves, you. And I thought the
pandemic was going to do it. I'msuch a Pollyanna. Sometimes I
thought this was gonna be it.When would people realize that
(32:29):
we all deserve health care?Because if we all deserve health
care, it's safer for all of us,right? If everybody has access
to testing, and masks andwhatever, you know, if you
believe in it, this shots or youknow, whatever, what are they
called? vaccination? Yeah,vaccinations would have, if it's
free, if everybody can getmedical help, and it's in it's
(32:52):
available, because that shouldbe a right. I mean, that should
be a privilege, not a privilege,it should be a right, everybody
should have health care, itmakes the whole, all of us
healthier. And so that'shealthier for me too, as a
privileged person who willinteract with people. I just
thought that pandemic was goingto do it. I don't, I mean, I
(33:13):
think it moved the needle alittle bit, but I'm just
wondering if it's going to moveback, it is to everyone's
advantage is just trying toconvince the people in charge
and the people with the moneyand the people with the
privilege, that you are so rich,that if you just gave up a
little bit more on your taxes,it would make the whole situate
your roads would also be better.Your I mean, everything would be
(33:36):
better, and you're still gonnabe rich. You know what I mean? I
have this conversation a lotwith with wealthy people. I'm
like, where do you put yourmoney? Like, what is your? What
is your why I don't have to? AndI said, I know you don't have
to? I mean, nobody's requiringit in the law or anything. But
where why wouldn't you? I don'tknow. You know, and we're given
(33:59):
these statistics all the time,like the richest five people, or
the richest two people orsomething could stop, you know,
child hunger. And I'm like, wow,well, let's do that. And they
would still be rich, they haveso much money, they can't spend
it all, they at all. Now,they're not enough minutes in
the day. So
Kim Clark (34:20):
we're not going to get into it. But I have seen
some kind of futurists that aretalking about with the with AI
and the capabilities of AI thatthere will be trillionaires out
of it. So I actually want tohave a part two with you.
There's more that I'd like toask you and have a conversation
about as it relates to what wewere just talking about. I think
(34:43):
we pick up where we left off.There's more to be said around
this the power of communicationslanguage visual representation,
as it relates to diversity,equity inclusion, so I'll end
this part. This first part ofthe conversation with you on
this question. Have what is toyou? And in your experience,
(35:05):
what does communicating like yougive a damn look like or feel
like or experience?
Unknown (35:15):
I think it's, it's you have to not be afraid you have
to be not, you have to not beafraid to not be afraid. And be
ready. And I really do. I'mreally proud of you, I have to
say, even though I have nothingto do with this work that you're
doing, but it's really, I'm veryproud that a student of mine
(35:38):
wrote a book like the fine artof not saying stupid shit, I
cannot tell you how thrilled Iam. And I am doing the work
myself. And it's that stoppingand thinking before you open
your mouth. And in your book,you provide the depth model,
like so that to give, here's away to think about it. And then
(36:00):
it becomes second nature afteryou do it two or three times.
Absolutely. And even still, Imake mistakes. I probably have
made a couple on this interview.But like, in the past, I may not
have done this interview,because it's so you know, you
can make a mistake, but I'm okaywith making mistakes, because
I'm willing to apologize, learnwhatever lesson I couldn't have
(36:24):
known because of who I am, andmy position and being a
privileged person and whatever.But now I do. And I will never
make that mistake again, right.And so I feel like it's just
getting over this idea thateverything has to be perfect, we
are all imperfectly perfect. Andunderstanding that everything we
(36:47):
do, the way we live our lives,the way we talk to our children,
the way we drive our cars,everything that we do, affects
other people. And if you keepthat in mind, and you're
compassionate to yourself, andsay, I made a mistake, but I
know I'm trying, and I'm goingto try to make up for that
(37:08):
mistake and just keep movingforward. It makes it better for
you, it makes it better for theworld. And that's what we all
have to do. Because one persondoing it or a small group doing
if you just delegate your Dei,sort of, well, there's there's a
group out there that does that.You know, or exactly, or if like
(37:29):
Black Lives Matter, or LGBTQplus, it's like, well, you know,
they they're gonna do thatlittle they're gonna go out and
they're gonna protest aboutwhatever. Like they're doing
that not Oh, you know, no, no,no, you have to participate and
engage and understand, becausetaking rights away from one
group affects all of the groups.Right. And it has ramifications
(37:54):
for for everyone. And so I thinkthat sort of thinking outside of
yourself and not being afraid,is is sort of the key to the
whole kingdom. That's justthat's been my experience.
Because otherwise, it's just,you know, it's, it's meaningless
if other people don't, if onlyLGBTQ plus people. Well, it's in
(38:17):
the black in the black civilrights movement, if only black
people had demanded rights, andno white people had said, yeah,
that's wrong, they, you know,that needs to happen. It may not
have happened. It's when peoplereally, you know, stop being
afraid and understand that now,is not taking anything away from
(38:39):
you, it is adding to all of us.And don't be afraid to have that
opinion, express that opinionand have difficult conversations
about it. It's exhausting.
Kim Clark (38:50):
As, as a gay woman, I would not have been able to
legally marry without straightpeople without heterosexual
people. You know, making itlegal. Right? We couldn't have
done it on our own. Yeah, let'svote,
Unknown (39:05):
you know, let's vote let's all of us get together and
partner and vote. You know, and,but I also believe, you know,
that cuts across all politicalareas, you know, I think that
gun legislation should be hadbut still, if people want to own
guns, there's got to be somekind of a legal way for that to
(39:28):
happen or that's better for allof us instead of the way it is
right now. Which is no good forany of us. Anybody can be shot
now. Right? I mean, you doesn'tmatter you can be in a mall in
Texas, which just happened and
Kim Clark (39:43):
and you're from Texas, and well, yes, I am in
part two. Because I think youryour upbringing really informs
who you are today. You saw somestuff, you met some people and
so and then You know, all thework that you've done all the
awards, the published books thatyou've done the papers, etc. And
(40:07):
all of it is, is coming fromthis, this, this passion that
you have for this work that Ithink we would all benefit
learning more about and hearingmore about. So we'll have a part
two, how can I find you and stayin touch with you?
Unknown (40:21):
Um, I, you can always go to San Jose State University
and my email is there. It's Kimwith a b.masse@sjsu.edu. That's
really the best way to get intouch with me.
Kim Clark (40:35):
Excellent. Well, I look forward to continuing the
conversation. I reallyappreciate your time. And thank
you again for that contributionin the book.
Unknown (40:42):
Hey, it was honored to be asked, I have to say and it's
also honored to have aconversation with you, I really
do believe in the work thatyou're doing. And I think you
are so smart. And and I amreally grateful that You have
given me a tool that I am nowusing to have very difficult
(41:03):
conversations about Dei, in avariety of situations, not the
very least of which is withother white people. White
privilege. People just say weneed to be talking about this
even if we're not in thepresence of a situation that's
demanding it we should betalking about it and and and
it's given me a way to do that.And so I'm really grateful for
(41:25):
it.
Kim Clark (41:27):
Yeah, it's not enough to be not racist, right. We must
be anti Oh, you know, is a whiteperson's social construction of
reality. Yep. So thank you.
Unknown (41:37):
All right. Okay, take your time. Thank you.
Yay. Hi, hi. Hi. This is a really special episode for
(00:04):
me. I have known Dr. KimberlyMassey for 30 years, right, like
the early 90s. Right? Yeah. Andwe have find found all kinds of
excuses to cross paths,personally and professionally.
And this is one of thoseopportunities where I can tap
(00:26):
into your great depth ofknowledge as a full professor at
San Jose State University. Andyou contributed an article to
the book that I co authored theconscious communicator. We're
gonna get to that in just asecond. But welcome, thank you
for being here. Tell it tell ustell everybody a little bit
(00:48):
about yourself.
Kimb Massey (00:50):
Well, I'm Kim Massey, I'm a professor at San
Jose State, as Kim mentioned,and I'm Kim's professor. So
that's really the biggest lineon my resume. I've been studying
the media thinking about themedia and teaching Media and
Culture my entire adult life. Istudied as an undergrad at UT
(01:13):
Austin and got my degree inradio television film there went
on to San Francisco State to geta master's in broadcast
education, communication, andthen on my doctorate in
Communication at the Universityof Utah. So literally my entire
adult life, I've been talkingabout the media.
Kim Clark (01:33):
And you mentioned the media and culture. So what do
you mean by that? Whatrelationship Are you are you
talking about that is superfascinating that you've
dedicated your whole career to?
Unknown (01:42):
Well, everybody belongs to culture. And there's a
million different kinds ofculture, whether you're aware of
it or not, there's the cultureof a family and what being a
father means and a mother or asister, brother, being a
grandmother being a nurse. Sothere's vocational cultures,
there's fandom, like, I'm a bigsteam fan. So there's a whole
(02:06):
culture around stealing, andbeing a San Francisco Giants
fan, or whatever. There's race,culture, nationalist culture,
and any one of us all of us are.So there's an amalgam of all
these different cultures, basedupon where we grew up, or how
(02:26):
old we are, or how we wereraised, or what our belief
system is, which party we votefor whatever it is, maybe we
don't vote, that's also aculture. So it's a culture of
physical realities, for example,you know, like, what we look
like, and what wouldn't, wherewe live those sort of physical
(02:53):
realities, but it's alsoconstructed realities. And that
is like, like being a fan orbelieving in God, or whatever it
is, right? So the media morethan anything else, on, you
know, in all of the cultures allaround the world, affects what
those cultures are, whenever newones come on the scene, and what
(03:17):
they mean, they define theprovide the definitions for what
all of these cultures mean. Andpeople will say, well, they
don't do they're not the mostpowerful influence, but they
really are the media that weconsume, especially as
Americans, we consume media morethan we do anything else. We
consume media more than wesleep, we consume media more
(03:38):
than we have dinner with ourfamilies, more time than the
time we spend with our families.So because we consume and engage
in media so much, it isstatistically impossible,
especially with all the messagescoming through the media over
and over again, repetitively,the same messages over and over
again, for us to not be affectedby it. And the challenge is that
(04:03):
everybody knows this, but nobodybelieves it. I've been talking
about the same media effects andculture defining what culture is
getting people to realize allthe different cultures that they
belong to, and how some of thecultural rules that they have to
(04:24):
follow, they didn't even get tonegotiate, especially in
diversity, equity and inclusion.They didn't even get to
negotiate what it is to beblack, or to be seen as black by
a white system or whatever itis, right. And even though I
tell people you were allaffected by media people, like
Yeah, but not me so much. Imean, I know I am. So therefore,
(04:46):
how effective can I be? And thenI have to point out, you know,
you're wearing a New York Giantsor New York, Yankees hat and
those are Nike shoes and you'redressed like a students wear
What does that mean? What'sappropriate clothing for women
to wear, what's not appropriateclothing, you know all of this.
(05:07):
And all of a sudden, they beginto realize that they are
products of their own culturalupbringings.
Kim Clark (05:20):
There's a class that you and I have both taught. And
I know you're you're kind offading into the sunset, as far
as your career is concerned as aprofessor, but I, I teaching
online now, but there's a classthat both you and I have taught,
that is kind of a it's a GElevel, I believe, and people,
(05:41):
you know, students from alldifferent kinds of majors will
come in and take this media,it's basic, it's a basic media
criticism class, right? And acouple of the assignments that
some of SE th the sections, talkabout one is, take a take note
of all the products that you'veconsumed in a day, just write
(06:03):
them all down, and for whatpurpose and like, what's the
brand? And then your analysis atthe end of that is to say, Okay,
well, first, you're alsosupposed to figure out what your
culture group is. And so Asiansdon't have the introspection,
they actually don't know whatthe assignment is asking of
them. They've never been askedthat question of what culture
(06:24):
group, they may go to race, theymay go to religion, but they're
advertising in marketing peoplecan, you know, figure out a
cultural group in a second, theycan predict everything around
the products that that aparticular cultural group will
gravitate towards? Right? That'sthe science of it. And then the
analysis is did do you seeyourself being marketed to in
(06:46):
these products, that is oneassignment, the following
assignment is taking an eyechallenge, and invite any
audience member to do this foryour own, you know, self
awareness, to take three daysoff from media, like take three
days off, we call it a mediadiet, and then see where your
(07:10):
time goes, when you're notscrolling on Instagram, for
example, when you're, you know,whatever it may be watching
things on YouTube, etc. And whatI find interesting is this
relationship between those twoassignments, what the last
question in the media dietassignment is around, Willie,
(07:31):
basically, will you return toyour natural Yeah, insistency.
Unknown (07:36):
Right away, they will far and away, far away, they're
very interesting, not affected,
Kim Clark (07:42):
right. So there's, in those two assignments, were
trying to drill in criticalthinking, right, and you know,
around exposure, and thenormalization of media use and
the definition of their owncultural group, as defined, and
by media and advertising andstuff, and they still don't get
(08:02):
it.
Unknown (08:03):
What's interesting is that when it first came out,
when media, especiallytelevision was first invented,
there was a lot of concern aboutmedia effects, because we had
come out of World War Two. Andbecause Hitler had done such an
incredible job of PR, right, hewould stage these amazing epic
(08:24):
events, and then put them as thesort of before the movie shorts
with when you would go to themovie theater, and all of these
sort of villages that werereally remote. But go to
everybody went to the movies onSaturday, we've seen these epic
events, and we're believinglike, oh, well, the whole
country field believes this. Soit must be like a good thing,
(08:45):
you know? With Yes, a wholeunderground of exceptions. But
you can see that why the concernexisted is because if you can,
if you can win the minds of thepublic mind, then you could
actually start a war or takeover the world, right? I mean,
and that's just anunderstatement of what has
actually happened, really. Butnow not so much. I mean, I think
(09:10):
if you are feeding yourchildren, and they want to eat
ice cream all day long, you sayto them, Well, yeah, we can have
ice cream, but that's like adessert. And that's, that's a
special and really what we gotto do is get to your broccoli,
you know, we got to eat somevegetables and some
micronutrients and all that andthen we can have ice cream. But
when it comes to media, peopledon't seem to understand that
(09:32):
every minute that their kids areon, online or on they're
consuming, they're consumingsomething right and most of the
messages are put together tosell. Not just to sell you a
product like lipstick or mascaraor shampoo, but to sell you a
meaning. right to sell you whatit is to be a beautiful woman
(09:59):
for example, Whoa. So so many ofmy students, whenever they write
down, you know, everything theyuse from the time they wake up
to the time they step out thedoor for women a lot of its
makeup. And they have to writein Why do you use this? And they
are and their responses are verycandid, it makes me feel good.
It makes me feel good to lookgood. And well, who wouldn't
(10:22):
feel good if they look good? Butthen I come back with a question
of why is having longereyelashes attractive? Who to
define that? Why is havingwhiter teeth, or straighter
teeth, or pink cheeks? Or any ofthe other makeup? Things like
poreless? I mean, we are humanbeings, we have hair growing
everywhere. And we have, youknow, eyelashes that get thinner
(10:46):
when you get older and whateverit is. Why, who decided that? I
didn't get to negotiate that. Ididn't. Nobody ever sat me down.
Whenever I was an agent said,Okay, we're taking a vote in
your age group, you're 18. Nowyou can vote. What how fat can
women be and still be attract?Nobody ever asked me. I was born
(11:09):
into this. And this isn't beingdriven by people, people. This
is being driven by people whoare trying to sell products to
make you believe that havingshort eyelashes is less
attractive than if you hadlonger ones. And then you start
using mascara. And then you thefeedback is that people will go
oh, she's you know, she's prettyattractive. And it brings you
(11:32):
comfort, safety, satisfaction,and even pleasure from engaging
in these activities. You know, Ihad a conversation with my
daughter about monogamy. Right?And her generation think about
monogamy differently than mygeneration. Of course they do. I
(11:53):
mean, every generation isdifferent. And she said, Well, I
don't I don't really understand,you know, why, like monogamy
after monogamy, because then ifyou get married or divorced, and
you remarry you, you're reallyjust a serial monogamist are
like that. And I laughed. And Isaid, because it brings me
pleasure. It brings me pleasureto think about only being with
(12:14):
one person. And why is that?Because that's the way I was
raised. Maybe if I had beenraised in a different culture,
where I don't know. But I that'swhat I always believed in. And
so that's, you know, I likethat, you know, I'm, you know,
Tammy Wynette, stand by your mankind of, you know, and I fight
it as a feminist. I'm like, Idon't need it. And I don't. But
(12:37):
whether I need it or not, isirrelevant to my actions,
because it's what do I want, andwhat you want, nine times out of
10, if not, 10 times out of 10is based upon culture. And
unfortunately, for the DEI,portion of this conversation,
the media and the images and thedefinitions, and the
(13:00):
representations have beendominated by money. And by race.
You know, so the same storiesare getting told over and over
again. Black stories that didn'tinvolve blacks being maids and
butlers and servants that helpcharacters or, or sort of
(13:25):
characters that were clowns, youknow, they're there for the
entertainment of, of whitepeople. That didn't happen until
the African American communitywere seen as economically viable
people to market to, then all ofa sudden, you had sitcoms that
were directed to the blackcommunity dealing with, you
(13:46):
know, talking about blackissues, then you had Bill Cosby
being a doctor and his wife, alawyer, then and only then when,
when the market was deemedeconomically viable to be spoken
to, then they got a chair at thetable. Right.
Kim Clark (14:04):
And there's a lot of conversation over the last few
years and still to this dayaround digital blackface, for
example, the use of memes andGIFs, and everything, where it's
this exploitation, exploitationof black joy in a lot of ways,
but used by white people to seemcooler, etc. And so look it up
(14:28):
folks, you know, have theconversation, look at what
you're sharing on social and thecultural culture that you're a
part of, versus the culture thatyou're putting out there in a
digital space. And what's yourintention with that? And I can
guarantee you that yourintention is that matching the
impact does especially dependingon the audience, so you
(14:49):
contributed an article, thankyou for the millions time for
contributing this article to ourbook. And the deeper dive topic
is called the influence ofstereotypes, right? Can you read
a little bit, the ending of yourarticle there and then talk
about what you were trying toconvey to those who read the
(15:12):
book?
Unknown (15:13):
Yeah, I'm going to start a little bit higher than
the ending just a tiny bit. Inthe end, it isn't enough to hold
media producers accountable, itcomes down to what we as
individual audience members, andgroups do. The public needs to
recognize that we have choices,but then we need to follow up by
(15:35):
making good ones. If peoplechoose to be passive consumers
of media not questioning themeaning oriented meeting occurs,
all of society must live withthe adverse consequences and
some more than others.Conversely, if people recognize
their power and agency bybecoming an active audience,
(15:56):
member and or producerthemselves, we can demand
diverse content, we can strivefor as many perspectives as
possible. And we can questionand develop our own
interpretation of media content,based upon our life experience,
our education, family andcultural influences, we can
learn that the system doesn'twork without us. If we back away
(16:19):
the relationship and demandsDei, especially joined with many
others, media will be forced toaddress our concerns and needs.
And finally, we need to bediligently. We need to
diligently monitor ourconsumption behaviors, be
skeptical, engage in criticalthinking, slow down, check and
(16:40):
separate facts from opinion, andcheck the origin or context or
purpose of all information,before we share it together. And
only together, we can sociallyconstruct a better reality by
making it true every time weengage with media and with each
other. Yeah, that's the thing,you know, it's a, it is a I
(17:08):
mean, I always use the metaphorof a drug deal. It's a drug
deal. You got a drug dealer witha product, that's the drug and
somebody's buying it. And ifthere's no product, there's no
exchange, right. And we are theproduct that has been bought and
sold between media andadvertisers media are getting us
(17:32):
to the screens with content,whether it's a Netflix movie, or
you know, a network televisionshow or a series or YouTube
video or a meme or an Instagrampost, whatever it is. They they
drive us to the screens, theybring us to the screens, and
(17:54):
then they hand us over with allof our demographic information
to advertisers who custom buildnow, ads to appear on your
social media or on your screens,or whatever. So if we remove
ourselves as the product, thedrug deal can't occur, right,
the exchange can't occur. Sowhen we consume, we're present,
(18:17):
and when we don't consume wearen't. And if we demand better
quality, they will deliver itbecause if not their competitors
will and we'll go to thosescreens. And my students are
always like, but we're so we'rejust individuals, and these
corporations are so big, and I'mlike McDonald's sells salad.
McDonald's sells salad. Now, ifyou had bet me a billion dollars
(18:41):
in my lifetime, becauseMcDonald's was invented in my
lifetime, when I was a littlegirl, that McDonald's was ever
going to sell a salad, I wouldhave taken that bet and lost it.
Because people were like, We gotto start like eating also green
things we can't just be eatingbut you know, whatever. And all
of a sudden McDonald's so salad.So we do have the power. They we
(19:02):
just don't know it and theydon't want us to know it. So the
only thing I can think of to dois to educate people about their
own power, their own culturalpower, their own consumptive
power. And the more active weare and the more demanding we
are, the more we're gonna getwhat we want. But if we don't
(19:23):
ask, and we don't demand,they're gonna give us whatever
they think we deserve.
Kim Clark (19:29):
Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You
mentioned in the articlecritical thinking and social
construction. So so that socialconstruction of reality is a
media theory.
Unknown (19:42):
Right? Can you speak to? It's my favorite one, right?
Kim Clark (19:46):
What's that?
Unknown (19:47):
It's my favorite media theory is my favorite
Kim Clark (19:49):
tale. Can you speak to how groups and populations
have been stereotyped? You know,you've mentioned some examples,
if you can add some moreexamples, and that narrative
that's being pushed, that'sbeing normalized. And how that
(20:12):
relates to the theory of social,basically, what it what is
social construction of reality?And how does it show up? And
what role does media I mean,critical thinking play as an
antidote?
Unknown (20:26):
That's a great question. I feel Um, well,
social construction of realityis that reality is whatever we
all agree it is. A good example,would be money, right? I go into
a store and I hand somebody apiece of paper that's really
made out of cloth that hasspecial ink on it that the Fed
(20:48):
printed. And that piece of paperis supposed to represent 100,
pennies, four quarters, 10,dimes, whatever. And I'm
supposed to be able to hand itto somebody and say, give me
that food or whatever that candybar, I'll take that candy bar,
although nothing costs $1anymore, but you get the point.
Right? And that person has totake the money legally, because
it's legal tender. And we've allagreed that it used to represent
(21:12):
gold in Fort Knox. But now Idon't know what it represents.
Because it depends on themarket, right? But we all agree
that it does. So it could beseashells, it could be sunflower
seeds, whatever we agree isworth money is worth trade, that
and we all agreed and that'swhat it's going to be. And it's
(21:32):
the same with cultural stuff andwith defining of groups. So if
you have a stereotype, let's sayan Asian stereotype, women,
Asian women are eithercompletely virginal, right, or
they're dragon ladies in theirheads of cartels. They seem to
(21:52):
be stereotyped to have all thesesexual secrets, you know, and
all of this stuff, when when youand and you know, quiet and they
don't argue and they keep theirheads down, they bow a lot.
These are all stereotypes, baddrivers, right? All of these are
stereotypes. Does that mean thatthere aren't some people that
are bad drivers? Yeah, but I'veseen a lot of other bad drivers
(22:15):
from all walks of life, old,young, any race drivers can be
bad, right? So you get thesestereotypes, and they go out
there, and then you meet anAsian person, person, and you're
not Asian, okay, you meet anAsian person. First of all, as a
white privilege person, I wouldmeet an Asian person. And
(22:38):
there's all kinds of cues comingat me before I ever open my
mouth and introduce myself. I'mlooking at this Asian person.
And I'm like, what kind of Asianperson is this? Well, Asian
people will tell you that theycan. They can tell the
difference between eightdifferent kinds of Asians but
but Asians in the language arejust sort of lumped under this
category of Asian when there'sall kinds of diversity going on
(23:01):
different languages, differentlocations, same locations, but
different languages, customs,traditions, food, the whole
shebang. But they're all lumpedinside this one category. So I
meet somebody new. And my son isa half Asian, my stepson, his
half Asian, and it wasfascinating, but terrible, at
(23:22):
the same time to watch peopleengage him. Because they would
say, Where's your mother, and bereally mean to him. And he'd
point to me, and I'm a white,blond woman. And he said, That's
my mother. And then the wholestory would change. The whole
the way they treated him the waythey thought about him. Oh,
(23:42):
you're so wonderful, Kim, youmust have adopted a Chinese
child. And I'd say I didn'tadopt anybody. He's my stepson.
And he's Korean. Right? So thesemessages that come to you
through the media and thestories that are told over and
over again, stereotypes that aregiven to you are some times
oftentimes, the only experiencea lot of people have of other.
(24:08):
Right. So when they engage inwith people that they don't have
a lot of contact with, theyalready think that they
understand who that person is.And and they have zero idea,
because the stereotypes do notrepresent everyone in in
(24:29):
different categories. They justthey aren't there. They're short
cut storytelling plots, becausethey only have 30 minutes to
tell a story or an hour or anhour and a half, unless it's a
mini series and then it'sdivided up into those amounts,
right. So that's why the dumbwoman is a busty blonde and
(24:51):
that's why the serious woman isa bookish brunette. And that's
why you know, Who are thejudges? Who are the criminals?
Who, who's smart, who's not, youknow, older people are always
sort of The Golden Girls. Youknow? People always, like older
women are a little bit flightyand scattered. And I'm like, not
(25:15):
be Arthur like, and she was,like plastic and biting and had
an incredible sense of humor andwit, but I guess they're more
thinking about Betty White orsomething, I don't know. So the
stereotypes really make itterrible for and those are just
(25:38):
funny little examples, littlewhite privilege examples. I
mean, stereotypes can mean thedifference between people having
their partners in the room whenthey're hospitalized, making
life decisions for them and theLGBTQ plus coming community or
being able to buy a house in aneighborhood, if you're Jewish,
(26:01):
or if you're black, or if you'reLatino or whatever, right, if
you're a person that is notwhite privileged. So it's the it
isn't just Well, you shouldn'tbe watching that show. Because
it's really not good. No, youshouldn't be watching that show
because it perpetuates negativestereotypes that have real
(26:22):
consequence. for groups ofpeople in really incredible
ways. You can also be white men,can I say for the record, it can
also be white men, which is Iget a lot of pushback from my,
in my classes from white mengoing, Are we just going to be
(26:42):
the villains forever. So well,you're not necessarily always
the villains, but you are alsoaffected. And shootings are the
era one of the best areas I cantell you. Especially school
shootings. If it were if it wereyoung girls, or any person of
color that's doing all theshootings, like if, if shooting
(27:05):
after shooting after shootingthe West Asian young boys, this
country will be asking what isgoing on with Asian young boys,
that they're going into theschools and shooting people?
Right? If it was women thinkback to Thelma and Louise,
right? How many movies have youseen where men are just shooting
each other and killing eachother and godfather and cop
(27:28):
shows and nobody seemed to care.But when two women did it in a
movie that was super popular? Ohmy goodness, the media came out
saying you know what is what isup with? Like, why is everybody
watching this movie about thesewomen shooting people? And I'm
like, because we've beenwatching men shoot people since
the cowboy and Indian movies.You know, from the start, what's
(27:48):
the big deal? If women weregoing in and shooting up?
Schools, they would say what isgoing on in America with these
little girls? What kind ofcrisis are we in? But it isn't
nobody's talking about the whiteyoung male crisis. And 99% of
all the school shootings aredone by white boys, we should be
(28:12):
having that conversation. Weshould and I tell my white male
students, identifying malestudents at that I say this
would help you. A majority ofcrime that's committed in this
country is again is man on mancry. It's not man on women
crime. It's man on man crime.You know, men are dying at the
(28:35):
hands of other men. There is acrisis of masculinity in the
country, but we don't talk aboutit because they're the majority.
And they're and they're incharge. So they're the more
invisible under the criticallens. Right? When you think
minority when you thinkminority, you think woman or
(28:58):
person of color. Right? Youdon't think white male because
they're not a minority. Right?So they're invisible to the
lens, because we're talkingabout these issues of a hair of
the minorities when you thinkgender. What do you think LGBTQ
plus or women? But what youdon't think is white
(29:18):
heterosexual male? Right? Well,they have a gender. So why
aren't we talking about that?Because white, almost white
heterosexual is not it is incharge. Right? So that that's
invisible. And white, white as arace is is more invisible.
(29:44):
Right? Because it's even thoughwe talk about race if we talk
about race, critical race theoryeven but race, white, it doesn't
seem to be under the lens,right? And so anytime there's a
group that's invisible, as theNo arm are the mainstream or
this is the way it should be, oreverything's compared off of
(30:05):
that. That's when you know, whois the majority? And who is in
control? Because they're notunder the critical lens? It's
very interesting.
Kim Clark (30:15):
Very interesting. Yeah. When you alluded to one of
the ways that I describe it toclients is, there's the founding
fathers of the United States,the characteristics of the
founding fathers, that is, thathas been normalized as the
standard from which everythingelse is compared. Now, the
farther away you are, when youget into intersectionality, of
(30:37):
identities of marginalizedidentities, the farther away you
are from the Founding Fatherscharacteristics, the more
vulnerable and at risk andmarginalized you are, because in
society, we have created thishierarchy of value based on
these identities in comparisonto what is considered, you know,
(30:59):
the standard, the rideability.Very interesting.
Unknown (31:04):
It is very interesting, because I'm always asking that
question, when people bring upthings to me, and they're
talking, you know, aboutwhatever privilege or whatever.
And I'm always saying, Well,yeah, but we have to remember
that we're all in this together,that white males also have
gender and white males also haverace and white males also, you
(31:25):
know, whatever. Somehow oranother. I don't know how, but
you know, I think it goes in,in, in waves and troughs, up and
down, up and down, we have toconvince people that it is in
their best interest. It is ineveryone's best interest to
(31:47):
think about ramifications thataffect all of us. I mean, global
warming is a perfect example ofthat in the in the planetary
realm, right? If you, if you'rewasting stuff, and you're living
a less than ideal, recyclablelife, or whatever, it's the
tipping point, everybody needsto get in this together, because
(32:08):
we're all in it together. But ifthe privileged whoever they are,
they could be white, they couldbe whatever, if the privilege
but just realize that it'd behooves, you. And I thought the
pandemic was going to do it. I'msuch a Pollyanna. Sometimes I
thought this was gonna be it.When would people realize that
(32:29):
we all deserve health care?Because if we all deserve health
care, it's safer for all of us,right? If everybody has access
to testing, and masks andwhatever, you know, if you
believe in it, this shots or youknow, whatever, what are they
called? vaccination? Yeah,vaccinations would have, if it's
free, if everybody can getmedical help, and it's in it's
(32:52):
available, because that shouldbe a right. I mean, that should
be a privilege, not a privilege,it should be a right, everybody
should have health care, itmakes the whole, all of us
healthier. And so that'shealthier for me too, as a
privileged person who willinteract with people. I just
thought that pandemic was goingto do it. I don't, I mean, I
(33:13):
think it moved the needle alittle bit, but I'm just
wondering if it's going to moveback, it is to everyone's
advantage is just trying toconvince the people in charge
and the people with the moneyand the people with the
privilege, that you are so rich,that if you just gave up a
little bit more on your taxes,it would make the whole situate
your roads would also be better.Your I mean, everything would be
(33:36):
better, and you're still gonnabe rich. You know what I mean? I
have this conversation a lotwith with wealthy people. I'm
like, where do you put yourmoney? Like, what is your? What
is your why I don't have to? AndI said, I know you don't have
to? I mean, nobody's requiringit in the law or anything. But
where why wouldn't you? I don'tknow. You know, and we're given
(33:59):
these statistics all the time,like the richest five people, or
the richest two people orsomething could stop, you know,
child hunger. And I'm like, wow,well, let's do that. And they
would still be rich, they haveso much money, they can't spend
it all, they at all. Now,they're not enough minutes in
the day. So
Kim Clark (34:20):
we're not going to get into it. But I have seen
some kind of futurists that aretalking about with the with AI
and the capabilities of AI thatthere will be trillionaires out
of it. So I actually want tohave a part two with you.
There's more that I'd like toask you and have a conversation
about as it relates to what wewere just talking about. I think
(34:43):
we pick up where we left off.There's more to be said around
this the power of communicationslanguage visual representation,
as it relates to diversity,equity inclusion, so I'll end
this part. This first part ofthe conversation with you on
this question. Have what is toyou? And in your experience,
(35:05):
what does communicating like yougive a damn look like or feel
like or experience?
Unknown (35:15):
I think it's, it's you have to not be afraid you have
to be not, you have to not beafraid to not be afraid. And be
ready. And I really do. I'mreally proud of you, I have to
say, even though I have nothingto do with this work that you're
doing, but it's really, I'm veryproud that a student of mine
(35:38):
wrote a book like the fine artof not saying stupid shit, I
cannot tell you how thrilled Iam. And I am doing the work
myself. And it's that stoppingand thinking before you open
your mouth. And in your book,you provide the depth model,
like so that to give, here's away to think about it. And then
(36:00):
it becomes second nature afteryou do it two or three times.
Absolutely. And even still, Imake mistakes. I probably have
made a couple on this interview.But like, in the past, I may not
have done this interview,because it's so you know, you
can make a mistake, but I'm okaywith making mistakes, because
I'm willing to apologize, learnwhatever lesson I couldn't have
(36:24):
known because of who I am, andmy position and being a
privileged person and whatever.But now I do. And I will never
make that mistake again, right.And so I feel like it's just
getting over this idea thateverything has to be perfect, we
are all imperfectly perfect. Andunderstanding that everything we
(36:47):
do, the way we live our lives,the way we talk to our children,
the way we drive our cars,everything that we do, affects
other people. And if you keepthat in mind, and you're
compassionate to yourself, andsay, I made a mistake, but I
know I'm trying, and I'm goingto try to make up for that
(37:08):
mistake and just keep movingforward. It makes it better for
you, it makes it better for theworld. And that's what we all
have to do. Because one persondoing it or a small group doing
if you just delegate your Dei,sort of, well, there's there's a
group out there that does that.You know, or exactly, or if like
(37:29):
Black Lives Matter, or LGBTQplus, it's like, well, you know,
they they're gonna do thatlittle they're gonna go out and
they're gonna protest aboutwhatever. Like they're doing
that not Oh, you know, no, no,no, you have to participate and
engage and understand, becausetaking rights away from one
group affects all of the groups.Right. And it has ramifications
(37:54):
for for everyone. And so I thinkthat sort of thinking outside of
yourself and not being afraid,is is sort of the key to the
whole kingdom. That's justthat's been my experience.
Because otherwise, it's just,you know, it's, it's meaningless
if other people don't, if onlyLGBTQ plus people. Well, it's in
(38:17):
the black in the black civilrights movement, if only black
people had demanded rights, andno white people had said, yeah,
that's wrong, they, you know,that needs to happen. It may not
have happened. It's when peoplereally, you know, stop being
afraid and understand that now,is not taking anything away from
(38:39):
you, it is adding to all of us.And don't be afraid to have that
opinion, express that opinionand have difficult conversations
about it. It's exhausting.
Kim Clark (38:50):
As, as a gay woman, I would not have been able to
legally marry without straightpeople without heterosexual
people. You know, making itlegal. Right? We couldn't have
done it on our own. Yeah, let'svote,
Unknown (39:05):
you know, let's vote let's all of us get together and
partner and vote. You know, and,but I also believe, you know,
that cuts across all politicalareas, you know, I think that
gun legislation should be hadbut still, if people want to own
guns, there's got to be somekind of a legal way for that to
(39:28):
happen or that's better for allof us instead of the way it is
right now. Which is no good forany of us. Anybody can be shot
now. Right? I mean, you doesn'tmatter you can be in a mall in
Texas, which just happened and
Kim Clark (39:43):
and you're from Texas, and well, yes, I am in
part two. Because I think youryour upbringing really informs
who you are today. You saw somestuff, you met some people and
so and then You know, all thework that you've done all the
awards, the published books thatyou've done the papers, etc. And
(40:07):
all of it is, is coming fromthis, this, this passion that
you have for this work that Ithink we would all benefit
learning more about and hearingmore about. So we'll have a part
two, how can I find you and stayin touch with you?
Unknown (40:21):
Um, I, you can always go to San Jose State University
and my email is there. It's Kimwith a b.masse@sjsu.edu. That's
really the best way to get intouch with me.
Kim Clark (40:35):
Excellent. Well, I look forward to continuing the
conversation. I reallyappreciate your time. And thank
you again for that contributionin the book.
Unknown (40:42):
Hey, it was honored to be asked, I have to say and it's
also honored to have aconversation with you, I really
do believe in the work thatyou're doing. And I think you
are so smart. And and I amreally grateful that You have
given me a tool that I am nowusing to have very difficult
(41:03):
conversations about Dei, in avariety of situations, not the
very least of which is withother white people. White
privilege. People just say weneed to be talking about this
even if we're not in thepresence of a situation that's
demanding it we should betalking about it and and and
it's given me a way to do that.And so I'm really grateful for
(41:25):
it.
Kim Clark (41:27):
Yeah, it's not enough to be not racist, right. We must
be anti Oh, you know, is a whiteperson's social construction of
reality. Yep. So thank you.
Unknown (41:37):
All right. Okay, take your time. Thank you.
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