Crossroads of Celebrity and Scholarship with Educator Gene Williams

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Join me, Jennifer Furlong, on a riveting episode of Communication TwentyFourSeven, where Gene Williams, an esteemed educator and former child actor, captivates us with tales from his past and insights into his educational philosophy. Transitioning from sharing the screen with icons like Bill Cosby to empowering the next generation in the classroom, Gene illuminates the profound influence role models have on our lives. 

As Gene and I delve into the intricacies of how the entertainment industry's evolving landscape impacts education, we uncover the cultural shifts from an era of mutual respect to one marred by public spats and polarization. This episode traverses the generational chasms through music and media, analyzing their effects on how we teach and learn. We examine the role of protest music as a teaching tool and the importance of fostering critical thinking in students, navigating an age where fact and opinion often collide. Gene's firsthand experiences shed light on the delicate balance educators must strike in today's classrooms, offering a beacon of hope for those shaping the minds of tomorrow.

Gene's wisdom, gleaned from years as a principal, underscores the significance of effective communication and the need for a supportive community to navigate the rocky terrain of modern schooling. His heartfelt practices, such as making sure every student hears "I love you," exemplify the transformative power of empathy in education. This episode is a treasure trove for educators, parents, and anyone passionate about the nexus of communication and education, promising to leave you with a renewed sense of purpose and a deeper understanding of the role we all play in nurturing the next generation.

Contact Gene Williams at his website: www.eugenewilliamsjr.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yes, this conversation went a little long,
but that's what happens whenyou're having a good time.
As a matter of fact, weactually ran out of time, so
I've already scheduled Jean tocome back next month for a
follow-up chat.
If you are an educator, anadministrator, a parent with a
child in the school system orjust a community member who
cares about education, you wantto hear this conversation,

(00:22):
because Gene was a child actorwho had the opportunity to work
with many famous people.
We spent some time talkingabout the entertainment industry
and how his experience was apositive one.
His parents were clear aboutthe types of characters Gene
should and should not take on.
Not to mention, he had somepositive role models, including

(00:42):
Bill Cosby.
Now let me take a hot second toaddress the elephant.
Despite the controversysurrounding Cosby in recent
years, his contributions tochildren's education through
shows like Fat Albert and theCosby Kids and the Electric
Company, and his advocacy forliteracy should be acknowledged.
Not to mention that for usGeneration Xers, he was like

(01:05):
America's dad for many of us formany years.
Cosby's portrayal of DrHuxtable on the Cosby Show was a
positive role model whopromoted strong family values, a
solid work ethic and he had afantastic sense of humor.
So if you are tempted to getupset about us talking about
Cosby at the beginning of theshow in such a positive light, I

(01:28):
really want you to just take amoment and hear us out, because
I think it's essential that weseparate his positive
contributions from the seriousallegations and legal issues
that he has faced.
Okay, that's all I got to sayabout that.
That's just a small portion ofour conversation.
Really, when we get into thecrux of the conversation, gene

(01:49):
explains how he went on to havea very successful career as an
educator and he most recentlyretired as a high school
principal.
He had a lot to say about thecurrent state of education, as
well as the challenges and theopportunities we have to
positively influence students inand outside of the classroom.

(02:10):
I think you're going to enjoy it.
So let's go.
Welcome to the Communication24-7 podcast, where we
communicate about how wecommunicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
Hey everybody, how's it going?

(02:43):
It's Jen Furlong, host of theCommunication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
So I have a very special guesttoday and I am so excited that
he has agreed to allow me topick his brain for a little
while he has such a fascinatingbackground and we're going to

(03:05):
get into all of it.
Gene, I just want to welcome youto the show first, before we
start talking about yourbackground and the bio.
I just want the listeners toknow that this is going to be a
very special conversation and Iwant them to get their notebooks
ready.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Oh boy, we're going to get them now.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
No pressure though.
Might need to burn those pagesafter the conversation.
We'll see, we'll see.
But let me go ahead and giveyou the biography and I'm going

(03:45):
to have to read thisconversation, just based off of
this man's history and what hehas been able to experience, and
then we'll get into some of theimportant school stuff that we
want to talk about Absolutely.
But here's who we have on theshow today Gene Williams.
He received his BA in Englishfrom Emory University in 91 and

(04:08):
an MED in educational leadershipfrom the University of Mary
Washington in 2007.
He's a writer, he's a speaker,he's an educator and this part
is really cool.
He's a former child actor whohas appeared on stage, screen
and television with celebritieslike Bill Cosby, yossi Davis,

(04:29):
ray Charles, pearl Bailey andStephanie Mills.
So y'all look, put a tab inthat, okay, because we're going
to have to hear a little bitabout that.
All right, in 78, he became thefirst Black child in a major
recurring role on the highlyacclaimed CBS soap opera Search
for tomorrow.
Another tab right there.
Want to hear about that?

(04:49):
Gene has authored several booksand within those books he has
written it's a reading thing.
Help your child understand theraisin and milk syndrome.
Reflections of a confusedmiddle-class black youth, youth
and Grounded in the Word, an SATverbal prep guide based on the
vocabulary found in the KingJames Version of the Bible.

(05:12):
I absolutely love that.
So, y'all, I told you there aregoing to be so many interesting
things.
We're just going to have afantastic journey during this
conversation.
His books and opinions havebeen featured in Jet Black
Excellence, the Washington Post,various national publications.
He's been a guest and acontributor on NBC, cbs, cnn and

(05:34):
BET.
He spent 27 years as a publicschool educator.
He served as a teacher inMaryland, virginia and DC.
He's been an assistantprincipal in both the middle and
high school levels and mostrecently spent five years as a
high school principal.
And y'all know I love talkingabout education and everything

(05:55):
that goes along with it.
So again, gene, welcome to theshow.
This is like such a treat.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, thank you.
I'm honored to be here and Ijust whenever I get a chance to
run my mouth to folks that havecommon interests.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I like to take that opportunity the journey out of

(06:27):
all of those experience you know, being in entertainment and
then making that transition toeducation.
And then also you had somethings on your heart and your
mind.
You know, with the books thatyou've written Take me through
that what made you make thosedecisions to go from
entertainment into education andthen have the ideas that you

(06:51):
had for the books that youwanted to write.
What were some of yourinspirations behind those
decisions?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Well, there were a lot of inspirations at a young
age, starting at about five whenI was doing television and
theater and film and all of that.
And, like I said, people havetheir own opinions about this
man and I understand where thoseopinions come from and I'm not
condoning anything that he hasbeen alleged to have done.
I can honestly tell you, one ofmy earliest influences in terms
of education, in terms of beinga positive Black male role

(07:19):
model for my community, was whenI met Dr William H Cosby Jr at
the studios when I was filmingthe first Jell-O Pudding
commercial with Bill Cosby.
And to go back and to rememberfor a minute let's push off who
he has become, let's rememberwho he was.

(07:39):
You were a Black child in the70s when there was a big boom on
television for Black images.
Of course you know, becauseevery newscast started.
You started seeing.
You didn't just see, you knowCannon Barber anymore.
You saw a guy with a big afroand a big tie sitting across the
desk from another person ofanother color and giving you the
news.
And seeing Max Robinson, jimVance, people like that, yeah,

(08:02):
seeing folks that you haven'tseen in those positions before.
And so when I think of BillCosby, I think of you.
Look at television.
He wasn't playing a pimp or ahustler, he was a spy.
I spy the cartoons on SaturdayFat Albert and the Cosby Kids
teaching moral lessons from kidswho lived in the ghetto.
Okay, we looked at CaptainKangaroo picture page.

(08:24):
We look at the electric companyall those things he was a part
of, along with he was floodingback Weird and even early on he
was the one that was as terms ofcelebrity, that was
enlightening all of Americaabout the history and the
fantastic lineage of Blackscientists, educators and folks

(08:45):
who make America what Americahas become.
So he was my first influencereally one of my first
influences, of course, asidefrom my mother and father, who
were both educators.
So my dad at that time wasteaching at Howard University.
He later went on to become thedean of Sojourner Douglas
College.
Later on in life he became thetesting coordinator for DC
Public Schools and he went on toretirement and shout out to dad

(09:09):
If you've ever watched anathletic event Super Bowl, nba,
all-star Game and heard LiftEvery Voice and Sing song or
performed before the event, youhave my father to thank for that
.
He started that movement backin 2017.
When he had contacted his hometeam, the Washington Wizards,
and they did it.
And then the Brooklyn Netscaught on and the Golden State

(09:30):
Warriors caught on, and now yousee on the NBA and NFL and
everywhere, even some NASCARraces, which was crazy when I
saw it at a NASCAR race one day.
That's pretty wild my mind, fora variety of reasons that I'm
sure are obvious to us.
But so then I have my mom, andboth my parents are dead now.
But my mom, who was a careerEnglish teacher my mom at the

(09:51):
height of her career, was theregional language arts
coordinator for Miami-DadePublic Schools and in 2008, she
ran for mayor of Miami-DadeCounty.
Here's a crazy story.
Crazy aside, her campaign onlyhad $5,000 in its coffers.
Her incumbent opponent had overa million.

(10:12):
She did not win, but do youknow?
She still got 40% of the vote.
That is insane and that is justbased on relationships.
The year she spent as aninstructor and a teacher in
Miami-Dade County, the time shewould speak out I don't want to
say, mom, be careful, you wantto keep your job, but she would
speak out at school boardmeetings.
So she became a fixture in thatcommunity, both politically and

(10:35):
educationally.
So those were my majorinfluences.
Those were the guys that mademe realize I really had no
choice with educator.
Acting was something that wasbrought to me, was presented to
me, I had success at, but at theend of the day, it's in my
blood.
So even in the roles I took, itwas very important for my
parents.
They were very selective aboutthe roles I took.

(10:55):
I probably could have stillbeen acting now.
My father was, you know, and mymother especially.
Listen, we have to look atthese images years from now.
Your kids will have to too.
So you're not going to be thecrackhead.
You're not going to be the drugdealer.
You're not going to be thestreet kid.
You're going to be the kidthat's doing well in the
classroom.
You're going to be the kidthat's intelligent.
You're going to be that inevery role you search for, and

(11:18):
so that's what we try to do.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, I think it's incredibly important to be able
to recognize something that yousaid earlier when you were
talking about Bill Cosby and notthinking about yet we all know,
like you said, we all, we allknow what happened, but
remembering the amount of ofpositive influence that he had,

(11:42):
influence that he had and whenyou're talking about being a
Black kid watching televisionand you were mentioning you know
things were changing and you'renow able to see different faces
.
you know differentrepresentation and what kind of
an impact I'm sure that it hadon you as a child.
It's interesting being a whitekid growing up and then watching

(12:04):
Bill Cosby and in all of thoseshows and just loving him also
as a father figure.
It's really interesting comingfrom a different perspective.
He was just such that wholesomedad that so many kids related
to, regardless of what his skincolor was, and I think that's a

(12:26):
testament to his ability to justreach across and connect with
people on such an emotional, youknow, and and personal level.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
you know, focusing on the things that you know, like
values and and and family andand all of those things, because
at a certain point in ourrecent history, we had a group
of people that were trying toconvince America that Black
folks and white folks didn'thave the same family values.
I'm not trying to be difficulttoday, but we know that happened
.
Yeah, have somebody that says,oh no, it may look different, it

(13:02):
may be meted out in a differentway.
Right, we still believe in allthe things that most families
believe in.
Yeah, we still want all, westill have all the same dreams
that everybody else has.
And we know, asAfrican-Americans, when the
field is, when the level is,when the playing field is
leveled, we can not only succeedat the game, we can master it.
In many cases, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
And at the end of the day, who doesn't want their
family to you know, to toprosper?
who doesn't want their kids todo well that that's absolutely
universal and I think that issome.
That's a testament to the, thepower that he had to be able to
bring those important topics youknow across for, bring those

(13:47):
important topics you know acrossfor for so many people.
Now, you had mentionedsomething about you know the
stereotypes, right, and all thestereotypes that existed in the
70s into the 80s.
How do you feel about?
I'm kind of going, going offwhere I initially wanted to go,
but I'm just so curious about,because you do have this
background.
How do you feel about theentertainment industry today?

(14:13):
There is a lot of you know.
When I go out there on socialmedia and I'm looking at the
celebrities, the performers andthe images that are on stage and
I'm not that familiar with youas far as you know I'm making an
assumption that that you're aman of faith based on the.
James version Bible and put inthe SAT, which is fascinating,
you know, and I myself, being aChristian, it I can't help but

(14:37):
to see certain images and thingsthat happen on stage, I'm like,
ah, this, this is I don't thinkthat used to be this way Like
things feel like they haveshifted and so, with your
background and, and you know,being in tune with entertainment
industry, what, what are yourthoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, I'd be very careful how I say this.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
So take it in the spirit that it's given.
Here's my problem with that I,I, I I'm not.
I don't live under a rock.
I see the social media.
I see comedians especiallyright now I don't know what's
going on with comedians.
I never once saw Bill Cosby andRichard Pryor dog each other
out on national television,never once saw that.

(15:21):
And they both came from the oldangle of celebrity, from two
different ends of the spectrum.
They always show respect foreach other when asked to talk
about each other.
What I see now is something thatreally breaks my heart, because

(15:41):
when you have that history ofstereotypes and that history of
being viewed as other than orless than or not as intelligent
and or more of a criminal thanor whatever than you want to use
, and then for the for severaldecades, we began to work
towards moving from that and wehave an opportunity as black

(16:02):
people to I'm not saying blindlysupport everything that each
other does, but everybodydoesn't need to know your inside
business.
They don't.
There's no reason why a CatWilliams can't take a Kevin Hart
aside and say hey, man, thishappened and I didn't like it.
I need you to know I didn'tlike it.

(16:24):
Well, let's talk about that atyour house, let's talk about
that in the barbershop, let'stalk about that in church.
Let's keep it.
But when we come out to thepublic, that's my guy, that's my
guy.
He's very talented in his way,I'm very talented in mine, and
we move forward.
What then happens is we have abunch of comedians coming out
now and this is just my opinionwho want to claim the mantle of

(16:45):
truth tellers.
Okay, and in the course of thatyou tear down everything that
your colleagues have built anddone or tried to.
You can tell the truth, butthere's a way to tell the truth.
There's a tone in which you cantell it.
There's a place you can tell it.
It doesn't have to be told toeveryone.
One of my colleagues back inthe day, a fellow assistant

(17:10):
principal of mine, used to sayhis father gave him some advice.
That advice was you don't haveto come to every fight you're
invited to.
That's such a great saying.
You don't have to attend everyfight you're invited to, you
don't.
You know, and we know, thatthere are some people that are
making money off of prominentBlack celebrities beefing with

(17:33):
each other.
They're making millions off ofthat.
Heck, some of the people thatare making millions off of that
are other Black entertainers.
I have my own discussions aboutthat.
I would love to take ShannonSharp aside and say, hey, man,
at what point are we going tobegin to get back to what it was
, what the show was about?

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Right, and there's the cynic in me I can't help but
to feel.
Is that the core of it, is thatthe crux of it?
There's a lot of money to bemade in division.
There's a lot of money to bemade, and just put you on a team
.
You got to be on a team.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Negativity sells.
But I guarantee you, Iguarantee you, you will never
see a show where Jerry Seinfelddogs out Bill Burr.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
No, no, I agree.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
That's not the business they're in.
That's not what they're about.
They do what each person doesand hey, have at it.
There's enough pieces of piefor everybody to enjoy this
thing.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, full disclosure .
I saw Cat Williams live just afew weeks ago, brilliant
comedian In Columbia, southCarolina, and I mean just I had
not laughed that hard in such along time.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
I mean brilliant, brilliant comedian, one of my
favorites.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Brilliant comedian, but I love Kevin Hart too.
I will say If I have anopportunity, I'm going to go see
him too.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Everybody has different tastes.
Back when I was coming up, itwas the Bill Cosby crowd, yeah,
who liked the family stories andwho liked the jokes and who
liked the kind of what somepeople would call now mild humor
.
Yeah.
And then there were the otherside who loved the uh, the
Richard Pryor fans of the worldwho loved the the
straightforward, honest talkabout living in oppressive times

(19:22):
, living in in situations thatyou wouldn't want to be a part
of, and how to make that funny.
So that was always.
Those two images have alwaysbeen juxtaposed in American
culture, but I never once sawthe vitriol between comedians,
especially African-Americancomedians, that I'm seeing now,

(19:44):
and I just hope it doesn'tspread to other parts of the
entertainment industry.
I don't ever want to see DenzelWashington disrespecting Viola
Davis one day.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
I can't even imagine that happening.
Right, and you can't imaginethat happening.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right, and you can't imagine it happening.
And that's my point.
We what we need to get back tothe point with our comedians
where we can't imagine thathappening.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's such a good point rightthere and I I really hope that.
I don't know, like I said, thecynic in me is thinking maybe
it's on purpose, Maybe they'rejust drumming up business, but
it's a terrible way to go aboutit.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
It might be playing us all, but it's a very
dangerous game to play and agame you probably can't come
back from.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, 100%.
So let me ask you, with thethings that you have noticed in
the entertainment industry, withmedia, comedians and you know
we can even thinking about musicand just the entire industry
itself You've been in educationfor some time.

(20:46):
Yeah, how much of a negativeimpact over time has this had on
our kids and their psyche andability to respect one another,
respect education and what aresome of the things that you have

(21:06):
observed over time?
Because I have not taught inK-12, but I taught at the
college level for about 18 yearsand I know I've seen in the
classroom a shift in howstudents communicate with one
another and you know we've hadconversations about how the
images that they see and justyou know how it impacts culture

(21:29):
in general and our society ingeneral in general, in our
society in general.
I'm just curious, from yourperspective, being in K-12 and
all of this experience, whathave you noticed as far as its
impact on kids?

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Well, overall, a couple of things.
First of all, we all like toact as if this current
generation is the worst thatwe've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Kids today.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Right, there's this big divide and every generation
there was that same divide.
You know, I had parents wholistened to Al Green and the
Spinners and I was listening toPrince and Michael Jackson and
they're like what is this?

Speaker 1 (22:08):
You know, what I mean .
And then they look at Princeand they're like what is this?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
the pants so you know , then there's that, and then I,
then I, today, you know, when Italk to my daughter, who's
grown, she's 25, I listen tosome of the music that that her
generation likes and usesclassic music I said yeah, yeah,
I said y'all can't, y'all can'thang with the 80s and early to

(22:35):
mid 90s.
You can't do it, don't try to.
I mean, please, don't put upany of your blue-eyed soul R&B
singers against Michael McDonald.
Don't put it up.
You can't do it.
Don't put up any.
Please don't tell me thatBeyonce is a better entertainer
than Michael Jackson.
You Please don't tell me thatBeyonce is a better entertainer
than Michael Jackson.
You can't do it.

(22:56):
Stop it, cut it out.
But I think there's been somechanges that seem in recent
years just markedly differentthan I haven't seen before.
I think about rap music, for one.
I remember when I was excitedas an educator about rap music,
because if I'm in class and I'mteaching about similes and
metaphors and important devices,I can point to KRS-One, I can

(23:19):
point to an LL Cool J, I canpoint to a Tupac and be like
boom and make that relevant tothe kids I was teaching, and not
only the Black kids, the whitekids too, because hip hop is a
worldwide phenomenon, yeah, youknow.
And then nowadays, though,though, I listen to some of the
music and I really don't hear, Ican't understand.

(23:39):
I hear a lot of mumbling, amumble rap word, and when I hear
some of the words I do hear,I'm like I can't say those in
any class.
I can't, I can't use that andand and.
There's no longer poeticdevices in rap anymore that you
can cling to as a teacher,because it's a bunch of people
repeating the same thing andsaying afterwards I don't know,

(24:03):
I don't know who created thelyric, hey, hey, I don't know
who created those lyrics, but uhyeah, yeah, that took a lot of
of mental acuity to me it did it, did it, did I, I know, I know
somewhere, and I think that'sthank you.
When you hear rappers and andand entertainers of our era even

(24:25):
talk about, they even say Idon't know, I don't know what
this is like yeah I know what wedid.
You know I am.
I can imagine Chuck D, a publicenemy, looking at this today
stuff and saying, is this what Iwrote?
Fight the Power for.
Is this what it was about?

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So these and I think it isaffecting kids in a different
way, because but it's not justthe music, it's the whole.
It's a.
It's a.
It's an evolution andeverything changes.
We have to get used to it.
It's an evolution andeverything changes, we have to
get used to it.
You know, don't get mad becausewe don't use card, catalog and
microfiche anymore in thelibraries.
We don't need it, it's gotGoogle.

(25:01):
Don't get salty about it.
It is what it is.
Figure out a way.
It's a tool, it's a tool.
Figure out a way.
Now we shouldn't have Googleand Wikipedia writing our papers
for us.
That's right.
Have Google and Wikipediawriting our papers for us,
that's right.
And we used to see all that allthe time.
I said you got this wholeparagraph from Wikipedia, dude.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Oh yeah, and it's obvious.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Before there was AI, there was cut and paste
Wikipedia.
That's right.
That was the first AI.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, it really was.
Go out to Google University,know Google University and
figure out what are we doing?

Speaker 2 (25:37):
So those are the things that we have to get back
to.
It's very easy, because we havemachines and technology that
could do a lot of the groundworkfor us, and God bless it, yeah,
but we still have to be able toteach our kids to be able to do
the groundwork for themselves,because here's the thing that
technology is dependent uponright now, anyway electricity,

(25:58):
power, solar.
What have you?
If it's a rainy day, if thepower goes out, what are you
going to do?
So now you, you go to amcdonald's and when the cash
register is not working and theysaid it's, you know it's $10.15
and I give you $20.15 and saygive me back even change.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
You're asking too much.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
Whoa I see kids have.
I thought these kids would havean aneurysm one time.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
I can see the hiccup happening in the brain visibly.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
And I said you know, it's not even worth it.
I'll tell you what the changeis.
Let me tell you what it is.
And the kid believed and I wastelling the truth.
He's like oh, thank you, mister.
Come on man.
What are we doing?
What are we doing?

Speaker 1 (26:56):
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HR professional or just someonewho wants to strengthen your
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(27:17):
Get a copy of Head, heart andHands Listening by clicking on
the link in the show notes.
I think that is probably one ofthe biggest concerns that I
have with Probably one of thebiggest concerns that I have
with I'm about to say it kidstoday.

(27:38):
You know I would teachcommunication research and one
of the fantastic opportunitiesthat you have in a class like
that is you get to pull from allkinds of different written
texts and you know music, likeyou were just talking about.
When you look at how lyricswere written, you know in the
80s, you know with rap versuswhat you see today.

(28:00):
Communication research was oneof those classes that I would
about protest music you know andbe able to show them the lyrics
and then we would listen to thesong and watch the videos and

(28:22):
it would, you know, like youwere saying, with Public Enemy
or Rage Against the Machine.
You know, in the 90s, afterRodney King, the Rodney King
incident, you know all of thosethings and then to look for
something recent you know, tochallenge them, dig into it and
find something of some meaning.
What does it say?

Speaker 2 (28:44):
You may be able to find J Cole.
You may be able to findKendrick Lamar.
Outside of that, it's going tobe tight.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, we ended up looking at Childish Gambino's
this Is America, okay, and Ithink that was probably one of
the first times some of thosekids had been that had looked at
lyrics and then the symbolismof the actual video itself and

(29:13):
was in a position where theycould talk about.
What does this mean to me?
What do you think it means?
And then the differentperspectives from that song, you
know, and it was just such anincredibly impactful moment, I
think, for some of them to beable to see.
Wait a minute, there is anopportunity here to actually be

(29:34):
able to say something importantand you know I need to start
listening up for this stuff.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Can I share with you a teachable moment that I used
to do when I was a principal andassistant principal.
Yeah, so at the end of the day,everybody knew that at the end
of the day, when kids were atpractice or kids were
afterschool tutoring, whateverit was Mr Williams loves music,
right, so it would be nothing towalk down the hallways and hear

(30:01):
Al Green, steely Dan, doobieBrothers, the Spinners, the
Temptations, whomever.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Playing out of my office and the best moments I
had in terms of bonding andconnecting with kids, when a kid
would come by and say, oh, mydad loves that man, wow, okay.
Or a kid would hear somethingthat, as a Gen Xer, we thought
was fantastic back when we werecoming up and they would say, oh

(30:34):
, who fantastic.
Back when we were coming up andthey would say, oh, who's that
group?
That's dope Like I know.
Or even more, when they wouldplay their songs and they'd tell
me have you heard this one, mrWilliams, you haven't heard this
one yet.
I said I listened to it.
I said you know that's not anoriginal backbeat, right?
You know it's not.
That's not an original backbeat, right?
James Brown, right?

(30:54):
I said you know they sold that.
They stole that whole loop fromJames Brown.
What?
No, listen to this.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Oh yeah, y'all aren't that original.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, I already know.
I already know that song.
That's awesome.
So what type of conversationshave you had with the kids in
the schools about theinformation that they take in
from online?
You know, because so mucheverything, everything that
they're getting is online now,from not just listening to music

(31:28):
and you know the shows thatthey're watching on Netflix and
you know all of the things buteven just the information they
get, that things that arehappening in the world.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
You know If, if here's my thing I tell kids all
the time we're coming to an erawhere we used to have news
research, you know, referencedpoints, all of it.
Now, a lot of it is opinion,and I said if there's no
references, if there's nopointing back to where the

(32:00):
people got this information fromor how they learned this
information in any form in thewriting, take it for what it's
worth.
It might not be what you thinkit is, I said.
Now, one thing about Wikipediathat can be good and
constructive is you notice, atthe bottom of every Wikipedia
page, or most Wikipedia pages,they have articles they've read
that can that fed this articlebigger article.

(32:22):
Now, whenever you see aWikipedia page that doesn't have
that, it usually won't be onWikipedia very long.
It'll be taken off.
And so that's my thing.
Just look for the referencematerial, find out if this is
this person's total idea, totalintellectual property, or if it

(32:42):
has been gleaned in part fromsomeone else.
As evidence of that, you canprobably trust that, more so
than just somebody just spoutingoff because we got a lot of
that.
Oh yeah, with the TikTok Plenty.
Everybody's gotten a pain oneverything.
Everybody's gotten a pain oneverything.
That's one of the things thatyou know as a former
professional actor and really Ithink people don't pay attention
to everybody's a star now.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
so nobody's a star.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Everybody thinks they're a star, Right.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
And you may be talking total nonsense, but if
you can get enough people towatch and support and click and
like the nonsense you're spewing, all of a sudden you become the
authority, yeah, the expert.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
That's the role we're living in and that's what the
algorithm is going to support.
It's going to keep shoving thatto the top of the feed.
Can I use an example of this?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yes, please For adults and some of the people
that are listening to us rightnow are watching us that our
teachers are going to hate mefor this yo.
Can we just stop tellingeverybody how terrible education
is?
Yeah, yeah, look listen firstof all, and once again I'm about
to get in trouble, but I feellike this is a safe space.

(33:50):
My bus is for some of theyounger teachers, us old heads.
The problems you're dealingwith are like 20 and 30 years
old.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
We were having these same discussions, many of them
in faculty lounges and overcafeteria tables, years before
you, even a gleam in your mama'seye.
So here's the thing.
We could sit here and lamentthe fact that kids can't read.
Damn it.
Teach them to read.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Right, yeah, I mean, find out where they find out
where they are and help them getto where they need to be.
Because here's what this is.
This is Googleable.
So I'm not just spouting off onthis one.
I got to follow my own advice.
Newsflash folks, folks, 46% ofall Americans, regardless of age

(34:52):
, race, creed or color ororientation 46% of all Americans
read on the sixth grade levelor lower.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
Our kids can't read because America refuses to Right
.
Yeah, yeah, that is horrendous.
I remember when, when I firstgot into journalism and we were
talking about when you writethese articles.
The goal was to write it at aneighth grade level, because
that's where the majority ofAmericans were at the time.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
That's gone down.
Oh, yeah, yeah, isn't thatsomething?
Yeah, isn't that something.
Listen, look at the.
You saw the evolution happening.
First you had the WashingtonPost back in the day, the New
York Times, the Wall StreetJournal, the old Chicago Tribune
, the old Boston Papers.
You know you had to have a goodhand on your shoulders and the
ability to really read andcomprehend to get through some
of these facts.
Right, and some people mightsay it's because they were

(35:37):
trying to gatekeep information.
But maybe they were trying tosmarten you up Right and force
you to meet that standard, okay,yeah.
Then came USA Today Bigpictures, Color, taking up more
of the pages, bigger font.
Okay, so am I reading anewspaper or I can't read a book
right now?
What are we doing right now?
And then you go to 24 hour newsCNN happened, yeah.

(36:02):
Msnbc, yeah, fox.
And those are all differentsides of the same terrible.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Journalists became the celebrities.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
I don't care what your political affiliation is.
It really doesn't matter to mebut if you're getting all your
news from one of those, you'renot getting the whole picture.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
No, you're not.
Yes, not Absolutely not I thinkthat's one of the biggest
dangers that I think a lot ofthe kids when they depend on
social media and that, like Isaid earlier, that algorithm is
going to continue to push thatsame drivel up to the top of
your feed and if that's all,you're feeding your brain, of
course.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I could tell you some of the you saw my Instagram
some of the posts that have beenthe most vitriolic and kind of
accusatory are the posts thathave gone viral.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
The posts that talk about working together as a
community, as parents, asteachers, as students.
The posts that talk about whatyou get.
The kids can't read.
Let's help them to read.
Stop crying about it, let's dosome about it, right?
The posts that talk about?
You know, listen, we could makeall these.
Make all this hullabaloo aboutthe new math that you want and

(37:20):
people not being able to do youknow they don't have.
This is a new thing now, wherekids don't have to be allowed to
do.
Apparently kids don't have tobe able to do basic math in
order to jump to the advancedclasses.
Stop that, y'all.
How does that work?
Multiply, subtract, divide, youknow, and add on a basic level

(37:41):
with numbers with three digitsor higher.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
It's going to be a problem for you when you get
into algebra.
It just is yeah.
If you don't know that threetimes eight is 24, then you
don't know that 24 equals Xtimes three.
You don't know that.
Right, that's just a letter toyou at that point.
That makes no sense.
It makes no sense.
It makes no sense.
But you see it.
You see it happening.
You see people talk about thisstuff.
Yeah and so.
But when I said, when I, when I,when I go after certain folks

(38:07):
in education, oh, 50, 000, 20,000 likes, whatever.
Yeah, but when I, when I talkabout things about building
relationships with students, Italk about the reason building
relationships with students.
When I talk about the reasonwhy some of your kids act up is
because they can't read andthey're embarrassed, and it's
easier to cut the monkey andmess your class up than it is to

(38:27):
actually get into it and workwith their deficits and maybe
you can sat down with them andhelp them to understand.
This is a safe space.
I understand.
I'm here to help you read.
It's not to hurt you orembarrass you.
Maybe you see the behaviorschange.
No one wants to talk about that.
That's not sexy.
Positivity is not attractiveanymore and that's the worst

(38:51):
thing that's happening, I think,the worst effect of social
media.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
To the detriment of everyone.
Yes, I mean truly so.
What would you say to a youngperson who's in college right
now and they see what'shappening in the school systems
and you know we already have ateacher deficit I mean just
about in every state, probablyby now?
Sure, there's a teacher deficitand it just does not seem like

(39:16):
that's the career path that alot of people are choosing to
follow.
What would you say to a youngperson who's thinking that they
might want to get into educationbut because they're seeing
everything that's going on, theymight be a little afraid to get
into it?

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Well, I'd be honest with them Is this something that
you really want to do?
Do you feel this is a callingor a passion?
Or is this just something to dowhile you're waiting for your
dream job to come along?

Speaker 1 (39:44):
OK.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Mm.
Hmm, that's you know, that'swhat you're thinking.
Teaching might not be for you.
Right rhetoric and thedisrespect of three, four, five,
six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 year olds it's going to
just totally crush your psycheas a, as a grown human being

(40:05):
that pays bills and has a familyand it's contributing to
society.
Tough enough, it might not beyou Right If the whole idea is,
if you are more concerned withblind compliance than student
connection, you're going to havea tough time teaching, no
matter what demographic, nomatter what school and no matter

(40:27):
how much your admin does ordoes not support you.
And can we please?
I have been a classroom teacherand I have been a principal.
Can we please stop?
You don't see principals onsocial media dogging teachers
out.
No, you don't see it.
First of all, we ain't got time.
You're doing the job.

(40:48):
We try to keep things rollingon a certain and I can say
listen, I understand.
I grew as an administrator thetype of administrator I was at
the end of my career at thebeginning.
Different as an administrator,the type of administrator I was
at the end of my career at thebeginning.
Different as it should.
You mature, you grow, you seethings, you begin to realize
what supports teachers need andhow some things that people tell

(41:08):
you are important are not asimportant as what the teacher
needs.
Okay, as you grow, you getbetter at that and hopefully, as
you get better than that, youhave a longer and longer career.
I'm proud to say I was inbuilding level administration
for 17 years.
It's a long time, yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, are you seeing more and more teachers getting
out there on social media andkind of airing the dirty laundry
?
You're not.
You're not seeing it, I'mseeing it.
But like how much worse has itgotten, you know, over time?

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Okay, now, granted, now people, when I say this,
they say well, jean, you're,you're not in school buildings
anymore on a daily basis.
I said yeah, I just, I justleft in June 2023.
It wasn't 15 years ago.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Well, stop that.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
June 2023.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Not even a year ago, right.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
June 2023.
Not even a year ago.
Right, it may have become moresevere and more frequent and we
may be more exposed to itbecause of social media.
Yes, and every time you turn onthe X or Twitter feed, there's
a channel that says studentfights, right, and all these
kids are sitting there recordingfights and that's all you see
running into the loop 24 hours aday.

(42:19):
Yeah, you begin to think thatnow it may have become more
frequent and I'm sure and I'msure covid didn't help, and we
have a whole discussion aboutwhat covid did or didn't do to
the psyche of teachers andstudents and parents.
Yeah, but, like I said, thesearen't new.
I made a post which basicallysays this Before COVID was a
thing, I was swung on by astudent.

(42:41):
You thing, yeah, try to hit me.
Now, luckily for him, it didn'twork because he didn't even
sorry about that one.
I was young and in shape then.
That wouldn't have gone overhim.
That wouldn't have gone overhim.
But you know, before COVID wasa thing I once had.
A little mills will tell mehe's gonna kick me in my
testicles, and testicles wasn'ta word he used.

(43:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah before.
Listen, the year before we gotinto covid heavily, I had a
parent come to my office and Iwas an af-American parent and I
was disciplining her son.
She told me well, you don'tunderstand what black boys go

(43:24):
through.
I said, ma'am, when black boyswere truly going through
something and it was actuallyadvocated by the government
state, I was little.
Then, yeah, you talk to aperson that was born the year
after dr king got shot.
Like who are you talking to?
Yeah, yeah, okay, having thatsame parent disrespected my

(43:46):
assistant principal I don't evenuse the word she used to use
for her and told me to I won'ttell you what she told me to do
to a specific part of heranatomy and it wasn't.
It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn'tthe posterior, it was another
area in other regions and thelanguage.

(44:07):
This was before we ever decidedto social distance or go home
for six months or whatever anysystem did for COVID.
This has been happening for along time.
I have these same discussionswith my teachers and my
colleagues when I was in theclassroom back in 1997, 2001,

(44:32):
2010.
Yo, let's stop.
Let's stop, and we get ourstrengths from trying to figure
out a way to work with eachother.
Is every administrator a goodone?
No.
Is every teacher a good one?
No.
Is every doctor the best one?

(44:52):
Is every fireman the best one?
Some people do just enough tokeep the check flowing.
That's right.
That's right.
Let's not get ahead ofourselves here.
Let's figure out a way to worktogether as parents, as teachers
, as administrators, for thebetterment of the kid.
One of the things that some ofmy teachers used to get mad at

(45:14):
me about is is this about what'sbest for the kid or about
what's easy for us?
What's easy Right?
Let's ask that question.
And if we're and if we're now,I'm not saying that we should be
not concerned what's good forteachers, but if we're more
concerned about what's easy forthe teacher than what's best for
the child, which is why we werethere, listen, we have a

(45:35):
teacher shortage now.
If, if, if, you know, if wesuspended every bad kid in
America for every time I didsomething and totally
criminalized it, there'd be nokids in the school, who would
you teach then?
How'd you get your money then?
Yeah, now, like I said, I gottabe careful, because there's a
whole bunch of teachers watchingright now, probably wanna bash
me over the head with a castiron skillet.
But Well, I you know, I look atall sides of a thing, yeah,

(46:03):
yeah, administrators have got toget ourselves together, no
doubt.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Well, and I do think there's a level of, you know,
well so-and-so, like you said.
You know, are all teachers good?
No, are all administrators good?
No, I mean there are going tobe some that are better than
others.
But at the end of the day, ifthat's what you're consistently
looking at, if that's whatyou're using to make your
decisions on how involved you'regoing to be, I mean, there's

(46:27):
always going to be a reason tonot do better, well so-and-so.
And I see that on a systemiclevel.
You know talking about withmedia literacy and trying to
implement media literacy, moremedia literacy, education in the
schools.
You know, like at thelegislative level, there, I'm

(46:49):
surprised at how much pushbackthere is because there's this
fear of, there's this fear ofwell, who's teaching the media
literacy?
You know, you've got someteachers that are going to
politicize it and you've gotother teachers that are going to
politicize it and, at the endof the day, yeah, you're right,
you may have some teachers whowill do that, but is that a

(47:13):
reason to keep the kids awayfrom learning how to assess the
information and critically thinkabout the information that they
have coming at them?

Speaker 2 (47:24):
And what if you had a person that had an angle or an
agenda in teaching that here's aschool leader.
This is what we hope to do tobuild a type of climate where we
have independent thinkingstudents who will say we have
independent thinking studentswho will say guess what?

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, I got a question for you In a fuck away.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yes, I hear what you're saying, but this will
lead me to believe somethingelse.
What's your thoughts on that?
That's?

Speaker 1 (47:49):
right.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
I'm reminded of a time when my daughter was in an
AP history class and the teacherwas talking about the 50s and

(48:11):
he said these were the happydays.
Everybody was having a goodtime, Everybody who was one of
two, a student in the schoolwhere I was when I was assistant
principal.
He said you know, I had tocatch myself, Mr Williams.
I never.
I just I talked too quickly andI didn't realize.
I said, yeah, it's easy andyou're my teacher.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
That's right.
That's right.
But I'm sure the way she wentabout that.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Right, right, it wasn't.
It wasn't confrontational, itwas just very much.
Sir, I hear what you're saying,but when I think of dot, dot
and dot, that might tell me thatsome people might not view it
as happy as how it's beingpresented right now in this
class.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
That's right.
I think there's too much ofwhen we talk about different
topics, and especially gettinginto the classroom, if we
approach it from the mindsetthat, oh, it's going to be a
gotcha moment or it's going tobe a hey, you know, I'm going to
one up you on this.
That's not in the spirit oflearning.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
It's all about balance.
Yes, I think one of the majorthings that teachers are talking
about now is lesson plans and alot of just a big movement.
Teachers say why are youwriting lesson plans?
Whether it's stupid.
We shouldn't have to do it.
The uh principals don't checkthem anyway.
And and to them I say, yeah,you're probably right, but
here's the thing if you fail toplan, planning to fail, that's

(49:32):
right now.
Whether or not you turn them inevery week or every day or what
have you, you should.
I should be able to looksomewhere and see if there's
some type of structure.
It could be on a piece of paper, whatever it is.
I'm going to do this in generaland that for this many minutes
in the class, boom, when I watchyour lesson, I should be able

(49:53):
to see the components of alesson.
I shouldn't have to look at thepaper.
I shouldn't say, oh, this isthe guided practice I got you.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Right.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Now they're helping each other on their own.
This is the independentpractice.
Okay, okay, they're debunkingthat with exit answers.
Okay, this is the conclusion tothe lesson.
Got it?
Didn't have to look at a pieceof paper.
I can just tell by thetransitions and how the class
runs smoothly.
This teacher has a plan fortheir kids.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
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If you like the sound of that,you need to get the book titled
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(50:42):
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Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's all about balance.
I think a lot of teachers doget a bum rap and teachers do
have to do more now than they'veever had to do.
Teachers have to be socialworkers and they have to be
first responders.
If a child gets shot, who arethe ones that protect?
The kids Got to know what to doBefore the SROs and the law

(51:22):
enforcement gets there.
It's the teachers and theprincipals on the front line.
They're the first firstresponders.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Right, right.
And then, even before it getsto that point, you have, you
know, some kids that arescreaming for help.
Right, you know that one kidthat was in the news, I think
both his parents just got jailtime or they got sent to prison
for neglect.
Sure, parents just got jailtime or they got sent to prison
for neglect.
You know willful neglect,because the kid is writing all

(51:50):
over his notebooks and textingwith his mom.
And you know like I'm?
I'm seeing blood and you knowthere's voices in my head and
it's like you gotta be able to.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
And teachers have to be vigilant about that too,
because you know, if you happento walk by and see little Johnny
doodlingling and all he's doingis guns and pictures of people
getting their head going off,hey, let me look, johnny, you're
not gonna do it out to thecounselor and figure this out
right.
You can't be drawing that inclass.
We're not.
You know, this is 2023, it'snot 1963.
Everything needs to be lookedat.
So teachers are forced to behyper vigilant, and that's a lot

(52:21):
on teachers.
I totally understand that, butI think sometimes teachers want
understanding.
They're not willing to givereciprocally to their
administrators.
Okay, so, okay.
Yes, johnny called you a b inthe middle of class.
So you know johnny's not comingback to your class.

(52:41):
I want to spend them for atleast several days.
So he's going to come back tomy class In five or ten days.
He might Well.
No, I want him out forever.
I said whoa, whoa, whoa.
First of all, have you read thecode of conduct?
Do you know that?
Are you reading educationallaws?
Please make demands.
Don't think that just because aprincipal doesn't do what you

(53:03):
think he should do or what youwant him or her to do, that they
don't support you.
Just like you have protocols tofollow, admins have protocols
to follow.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Right, right.
And I think, ultimately, thequestion is what are we going to
be able to do to help himunderstand why that was the
wrong choice to make, why it'snot okay to act that?

Speaker 2 (53:26):
way, and if we get to the point where we realize that
that's not working, then youknow, at that point then maybe
there does need to be analternate placement for him, or
maybe going to school in aregular situation is not what's
going to work for that kid.
Okay, Well then, but we've gonethrough the processes.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
And so now, when mom or dad come back with why is you
?
And I'm going to say no,there's no, there's no lawsuit,
there's no, there's no that wefollowed A, b and C.
We did due process.
We gave the child opportunities.
It didn't work and we're notgoing to.
I'm not going to allow myteachers to be disrespected or
feel physically threatened.
If I can help it.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
I'm not going to allow that.
Yeah, yeah.
So schools are starting to wrapup.
You know it's getting towardthe end of the school year where
March and you know you gotseniors that are just senioritis
.
They're not even payingattention in the classroom right
now because they're gettingready to graduate and leave
school.
What are some things that youwould advise teachers, do
parents, do you know, as they'rewrapping up their school year,

(54:30):
what are some of those lessonslearned that they could probably
think about over the summer asthey're working on those lesson
plans and thinking about?
You know they're going to get anew crop of students in a new
crop of parents now Is there away to start it off a little
more effectively than others?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Well, what we used to do is have a transition meeting
every year.
We have a meeting for themiddle schoolers coming up to
high school and becoming ninthgraders, and we have a meeting
the next day for ninth goinginto 10th, 10th going into 11th,
11th going into 12th.
Hey, these are the things, thisis the code of conduct, these
are the negotiables and thenon-negotiables.
These are our goals, academicgoals for you for the year.

(55:10):
This is what we expect, mom anddad.
This is how you can help us.
We would talk about the wholeidea of cyber bullying and all
of that.
My main point was to all mystudents, I said when it comes
to the whole cyber thing andyou're posting things about each
other, if it ain't positive,what are we doing it for?
Like, what's the point of this?
Because all that's going tohappen is somebody's going to

(55:34):
get upset, and you all are notemotionally equipped right now.
In your immature state, that'sall it does is this in your
immature state, you haven't gonethrough enough, and maybe you
have gone through some verytough experiences, but you
haven't grown enough in terms ofyour emotional intelligence to
be able to handle everything theway it should be handled.
So let the grown folks do thatand the best way to keep that
from being a problem is if youcan't say anything nice about
somebody, say nothing, right.

(55:55):
But that's hard in a societywhere we reward people who dog
other people out, reward peoplewho dog other people out, and as
adults we can't sit.
We can't sit there as adults,adult parents, doing dumb stuff
like attacking umpires at leaguebaseball games oh yeah, yeah,

(56:16):
yeah, or, or, or, you know, or,or punching the principal in the
face because he's suspendedyour kid for five days, or
something you said that youdon't believe should happen, and
he's.
Nothing's happened to me, but'veseen, I've heard these stories
yeah, yeah, you know, and yousee it in the news through the
news, or harassing a teacher dayin and day out with phone calls
and problems, just because theteacher has standards in his or

(56:38):
her class like stop, yeah, andthen you want, and then you want
your child to to act in acertain way.
They're feeding off of theclues that you are providing for
them, and so we have to reallythink about what we're doing.
That's why it's so important.
The teacher is not the enemy,principal is not the enemy.

(56:59):
Our entire job is to worktogether to get your kids to
graduate.
I used to tell my seniors thisstory and they would always
laugh.
I'd tell them privately, thoughI wouldn't tell them in public.
I'd get them in the schoolmeeting, the senior class
meeting, after you finishedeverything and talking about the
well I expect for graduation,the protocols, and you're going
to wear this color robe andwe're not going to have sneakers

(57:19):
on, we're going to have dressshoes and we'm going to have
dress pants and you can havelittle messages on your cap.
That's fine, but it better notbe anything silly, because what
you're going to do is you'regoing to take a picture of it
beforehand.
You're going to email it to me,and I used to do this.
Approve individually everythingyou wore in your cap.
I said and if you get to theschool that day and I see
something on your hat thatwasn't on your hat when you sent

(57:41):
it to me, you either get a newhat or you're not walking.
Or you're not walking, what arewe doing?
And I got plenty of spare onesin the office, so we can take
that one off and slap that oneon, that's right but somebody's
going to try it Somebody's goingto.
You know what?
My last school, to their credit, they really tried.

(58:01):
All kids have issues and theyweren't perfect.
They weren't perfect studentsand I wasn't a perfect
administrator, but I got to give, especially the last five years
I spent as a principal creditMike, mike Bids really did try
and the one thing I loved aboutthem the most was I used to
tease them.
I said y'all really know how toput on the dog when visitors
come.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
You don't act the way you act when it's just us in
the building.
So that's how there's anawareness.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
But every time a visitor came they had nothing
but positive things to say aboutour students and our teachers
and how they related.
And this student came to thedoor and saw I was lost and
asked me where I was going andwalked me to the class.
What are you doing?
What are you guys, what are youteachers doing out here?
Mr William, this is really agreat place.
And I said who did that?
I think about mine, about whatwas in this discipline file.

(58:51):
I said, oh well, that's what wetry to impart.
And then my mom was like, wow,something stuck, something stuck
.
When I was a principal I used tosay morning announcements.
At the end of every morningannouncement I would say I would
steal a line from legendarycomedian George Wallace and I
would say Mr Williams loves youand there's absolutely nothing

(59:12):
you can do about it.
And all the kids used to teaseme.
I said Mr Williams, you're socorny, you're so corny.
I said, yeah, do you do that?
I said because, believe it ornot, there's some kids in this
building, heck, and someteachers in this building that
go through an entire week, anentire month and sometimes many
months without hearing the wordsI love you coming out of

(59:35):
somebody's mouth towards them.
I want them to feel what thatfeels like.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Whether they believe I love them or not.
They can say they heard someonesay that to them.
Yeah, and the crazy part aboutit was the kids would always
tease me about it, but then Iwould forget to do it.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Whoa, whoa they want it.
They want it we can't.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Announcements are still going.
Don't do that.
Yeah, you know, it's just.
It's just, it's just veryimportant.
It's just very important to tolook at, to look honestly,
honestly at what our situationis.
It's not as good as it once wasand we need to improve it.
We all know that.
Let's roll up our sleeves andtry to improve it.
Instead of spending the timeand energy we spend blasting it,
we could actually be doingsomething about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Yeah, yeah, I just want to take a moment to
underscore.
You said something incrediblypowerful and I do not want to
let it slide because we'restarting to run short on time
and I just think it's soincredibly important, whether
you're thinking about thestudents, you're thinking about
teachers, you're thinking aboutparents, the administrators.

(01:00:37):
Some people go all week withouthearing something positive or
the I love you, I care about you, I'm in your corner, I want to
see you succeed.
You know I'm, I'm here to makesure that that happens.
Every single one of us as basichuman beings.
I think it's so easy for us toforget because we get so focused

(01:01:00):
on the politics of things,looking at it in terms of are we
on individual teams, looking atthe things that seem
insurmountable?
You know a lot of thesechallenges that we have and it
just really sets us up for thisus versus them mentality and, at
the end of the day, I just lovethat you shared that story that

(01:01:22):
you know sometimes teachers goa week without hearing it,
students go a week withouthearing it.
You know, every single one ofus.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat is probably the most
powerful thing to remember inany situation that we're looking
at, especially in the schools.
I'm so glad that you did thatwith your kids.

(01:01:43):
That's awesome in the schools.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
I'm so glad that you did that with your kids.
That's awesome.
Yeah, that was just that becamemy thing and I loved it when I
heard it.
I want the kids to know I'mgoing to discipline you.
We're going to have tough times, but I always like each other.
It's never personal, that'sright, but this is what has to
be done in order to create asociety where we have people
that would want to live in it,and so you know.
Last little bit about when Iwas a principal.

(01:02:05):
The last year I was a principal, people were worried about
senior prank and they didn'twant anything crazy going on
because senior prank can bedangerous People don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Well, here's a principal hack Get with your
student government president andcreate a prank on yourself.
Oh, and everybody's so excitedabout, we get to dog the
principal out for five or sixminutes.
They won't worry about tryingto do something to the whole
school.
So my last year as a principalI said listen, here's what

(01:02:38):
you're going to do.
I said tell the, tell the kidsthat you all are going to throw
water balloons at mr williamsthe last day of school.
She said oh my god, they wouldlove to that.
You all are going to throwwater balloons at Mr Williams
the last day of school.
She said oh my God, they wouldlove to do that.
Are you going to go for that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
You're like I know they would.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Here's what you're going to do.
You're going to gather all theseniors out in the front yard.
You're going to tell them.
You know, listen, we're tiredof this.
We're getting up out of hereand Mr Williams is going to.
You know, usually counsel usabout trying to leave early or
what have you.
We're not taking this anymore.
It's been a week.
We're out of here in a week.
We don't even know how we feelabout some of the things he does

(01:03:12):
.
And so I said can you do that?
I said I want you and the kidsto start a big ruckus in the
front of the building.
I told my superintendent.
I said you're going to seesomething that you're not going
to like.
Just bear with it.
I know what I'm doing and whenI'm going to come out there and
I'm going to blast y'all out,I'm going to just go.
What are you kids doing outhere?
How many times do I have totell you?

(01:03:32):
If I tell you one more time,people won't be walking,
everybody will be going home.
And when I'm getting the tiradeblasting with water balloons,
Please tell me there's a videoof this somewhere.

(01:03:53):
I don't know.
There's a picture.
That'd be great.
But the kids loved it.
And then, after they threw it,I said, oh, you guys got me.
And he's like yeah, you got me,mr Williams, you thought you
had it under control.
We got you today and they lovedthat.
Oh, you guys got me.
And he's like yeah, you got you, mr Williams, you thought you
had it under control, we got youtoday and they loved that.
Oh, yeah, they loved thatBecause and I didn't get mad I
said, well, you know, hey, it'sthe last day, sometimes you

(01:04:16):
gotta do what you gotta do.
And we laughed and we huggedeach other and the whole thing,
and it was just.
You know, some people didn'tunderstand it, some of the
teachers didn't like it.
I didn't care because when Ithought, you know, sometimes, if
you don't want something tohappen in the building, I'm
trying to avoid something wherethe attention is taken off of
you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Oh, you know, you created a core memory for them.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
You got to be able to laugh and just enjoy yourselves
, you know, I mean, that's oneof the best things to be able to
create a sense of community,just laugh and have a good time
together.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
What happened to the teachers that could laugh at
themselves?

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
You can't do that.
Don't take yourself tooseriously what?

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
We're only here for a very short time.
Don't take yourself tooseriously what.
We're only here for a veryshort time, that's right.
Come on Listen.
Everything is not, you know.
Def CON 9.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
It's not.
Life is hard enough.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
It is, it really is.
Well, Jean, we have gone forover an hour now and I mean we
got to some things we hadn'teven had a chance to talk about,
so you're going to have to comeback on the show.
I want to yeah, I justabsolutely love this
conversation because I stillwant to talk about the whole SAT
verbal prep guide.
We didn't even get close tothat.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
No, no, no, it's totally my fault, because
there's just so much to thisconversation.
There it is, folks Grounded inthe word Grounded, in the word
there you go, there you go.
So that's what I think.
I want to talk with you aboutthat next time.
I want to do a deep dive intothat particular topic right
there, a deep dive into the data.
Yeah, deep dive.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
That's principle.
Speak, that's right.
You get excited, now We'll justnerd out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Oh, you get excited now, we'll just nerd out.
Well, sir, thanks again oncemore for just spending your time
with us and being able to sharesome of your expertise and your
experience, and this has been areal treat for me.
I have really enjoyed this, andI know the listeners have
enjoyed it as well, so we'redefinitely going to have have

(01:06:25):
you back.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Good, great yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Now, before we end everything, though, tell our
listeners what are some waysthat they can get in touch with
you if they want towwweugenewilliamsjrcom.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Email me at support at eugenewilliamsjrcom.
You can see me on Instagram atE-U-G-W-I-L-L-J-R.
You can catch me on TikTok atEugene Williams Jr.
So I'm in a variety of placesand you can Google me.
I'm Googleable Googleable andyou'll see about some of the
things I did when I was a youngperson and hear about my mom and
my dad and folks like that.
But thank you, Jen, for thiswonderful opportunity and I

(01:07:09):
really would like to come backagain and as many other times as
you'd like to have me, becauseI think you're doing a really
great service for your listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Thank you so much.
Absolutely, yeah, we will getright on that.
We're just going to go aheadand pick another day on the
schedule.
All right, everybody.
We hope you have a wonderfulrest of your day and y'all take
care.
We'll see you next time.
Bye, thanks for listening.

(01:07:40):
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