March 8, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever found yourself stumbling through an elevator pitch or zoning out during an important conversation? Worry no more, because communication expert Kym Dakin-Neal joins us to share her transformative techniques, which will not only refine your communication style but also reignite your capacity to listen authentically. From her inspiring transition from Broadway to the boardroom, Kim demonstrates the power of improv to enrich our daily interactions. She even brings her creations to the table: a conflict resolution card game and the innovative bookmarking app, Nugget, both of which have reshaped the landscape of collaborative dialogue.
Prepare to rethink how you engage with others as we explore the 'Yes And' game, an insightful exercise that proves why every idea deserves its moment in the spotlight. The game tests our ability to constructively contribute to conversations, steering clear of the temptation to shut down creativity. We also dissect the Waldorf model of education, tailored for adults, and its surprising benefits in professional environments. This episode isn't just about talking; it's about breathing new life into the way we perceive and participate in the world around us.
Get a copy of Kym's book today at https://amzn.to/3wJ0oMB
Download Nugget at https://www.yournugget.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
Let me paint a picture for you.
(00:31):
You are at a networking event,or you could even be at a party,
or maybe you're just out in arestaurant and you see that one
person from work who can makethings happen and you know this
is your one shot at having avery quick conversation with
them, so you can introduceyourself and try to make an
(00:53):
impact.
The one problem is you have noidea what in the hell you want
to say.
This is what we call theelevator pitch, the dreaded
elevator pitch, and we have allbeen there.
So this is one of many reasonswhy I have asked my guest to be
here today, kim Deakin.
(01:13):
She is going to help lead usthrough this very troublesome
topic of the elevator pitch, butshe also has some really great
things that I want to talk toher about.
As far as communication skillsgoes, she is a trainer,
consultant, coach.
She is an author.
She has helped so manyorganizations improve their team
(01:36):
building and how to bringpeople in and just be a part of
the culture that exists withinthat organization.
So we are going to talk also alittle bit about improv and
creativity and how we mightapply those concepts in order to
become more effectivecommunicators.
So, kim, I don't know if youcan tell, but I'm super stoked
(01:57):
that you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I can tell that and I'm super stoked.
Likewise, that's awesome.
I love your podcast.
I love the topic.
People think communications islike this broad catch-all topic
but, it's the source of so manyother things, and that's why
it's important and I'm justthrilled to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
We're going to have a lot of fun, Absolutely yeah,
and thank you for saying that.
One of my biggest pet peevesbecause it is just a huge
umbrella term communication, andwe could narrow down that focus
in so many different ways.
But the one thing I don't likeis when I hear somebody call it
a soft skill.
I'm like there ain't nothingsoft about this.
(02:47):
This is the one skill yourprofessional life, your personal
life if you want to influencethings that are happening in
your community, this is probablythe most important skill you
need to learn to develop.
So, yes, thank you.
Thank you for that little, justrecognition the importance of
(03:09):
what it is that we're talkingabout today.
So for our listeners, would youmind just telling us a little
bit about yourself.
What's your journey?
How did you come to decide thatyou wanted to be a coach and a
consultant in this area?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, well, I have been a trainer for quite some
time, but I've also I spentquite a lot of time in the
performing arts.
I was actually on Broadway fora brief afternoon as an
understudy.
I was also in severaloff-Broadway shows, a couple of
(03:48):
touring shows, so I got rid ofmy fear of being in front of
people fairly early on.
But as an introvert, Iunderstand a lot of the mindset
that we drag along when it comesto being our authentic selves
(04:10):
in public.
And you mentioned improvisation, improvisation.
When you think about it, we'realways improvising all the time,
but whether we do iteffectively or not is another
question.
And I find that when I coachpeople, when I bring in
improvisation, oftentimes it'sthe notion of saying yes to
(04:35):
whatever comes up, saying yes toa challenge, saying yes to a
new idea, saying yes to theperson who needs to have an
in-depth conversation with you.
And I guess if I had a guidingprinciple for my professional
life, it would be that I almostalways default to saying yes.
(05:02):
I'll tell this very brief story.
The pandemic right, theshutdown we all went through it.
We all have our stories aboutthis time.
But I noticed early on, eventhough all of my I had a really
nice juicy year to look forwardto, but it was all in person, so
it all evaporated and I thought, well, the silver lining is
(05:27):
time right.
For the first time in my adultprofessional life, I had days of
unstructured time.
So I decided to write a bookthrough Seth Godin's Writing and
Community program and I decidedto take a class for women in
(05:48):
developing online programs, indeveloping online products.
Now, I am not a techie I trulyam not.
On no planet am I a techie.
But I decided to embrace thisbecause a couple of years prior,
I had put together a card gameto lead groups that were in
(06:09):
conflict through conflict tocollaboration, and I thought I
got great feedback on it.
But part of it was I wonder if Icould put this online.
Well, it turns out I couldn'tfor a variety of reasons, the
first one being you have.
The most important element ofcreating an online product is
(06:34):
addressing the right problem.
So, long story short, the guywho created the class liked the
problem I had come up with,which was how to increase
engagement in online meetings.
Right, everybody's distracted.
Everybody's got their kids andtheir pets and their significant
(06:57):
others in the background.
We're all juggling 50 things.
Somebody takes themselves offvideo and you know that they're
either eating or they'rescratching, or they're trying to
close whatever it is they'redoing.
So he liked that problem and hewas after me to do the second
(07:17):
rendition of the class, and Imean after me.
He emailed me, he called me, hetexted me.
He said I like your problem andI want to work with you on it,
and I have grant money to putbehind it.
Grant money, my attention,right.
So we created together abookmarking app called Nugget.
(07:41):
Nugget was sold last year for anice hefty price.
It essentially gives you theability to take notes and online
meetings without disconnectingyourself from the person in
front of you and without havingto sort through reams of video
(08:02):
to tease out the essentialelements.
So with the push of a button, Ican highlight the text on the
transcript that says this isimportant Pay attention to this.
Plus, I can send only thoseimportant elements to my team,
should I choose to do so.
It was very exciting helpingcreate that.
(08:23):
Yeah, I bet, and I didn't havemuch to do with the technology,
but I became pretty damn good atpitching.
So in these pitch contests, I'min there with 20-somethings who
are looking at me like who'sthis old girl?
Well, I became the Nugget ladyand I became the one to beat.
(08:46):
So saying yes, I would say, isan improvisation concept that
has served me pretty well, andit's one that I encourage other
people to embrace as well withyou know, with certain
guidelines and parameters.
(09:08):
You can't say yes to everything.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It's impossible and we'll make you crazy, that's
right, yeah, yeah, but we dohave to have some boundaries,
but I love the overall conceptof that.
Being able to say yes to thingsis empowering, and sometimes I
think we are our own worstenemies in that we will talk
ourselves out of things beforewe even give it a chance.
(09:30):
I mean, at least if we try andyou know what the entire station
burned down when you weretrying At least you can say you
tried it.
You had no idea if this newtool that you were creating was
gonna take off or not, but youtook that chance, you said yes
to it and it worked out reallywell for you.
(09:52):
I think that's a fantasticexample of one of the reasons
the things that can't happenwhen we allow ourselves to do
that, and at a minimum right,like the Alana Smoreset song.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Right you learn yeah that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Right, you learn, constantly learning, and that's
one of the things about being acommunication person.
You know, if you are focusingon improving your communication
skills, one of the things Ithink you learned very quickly
is that every single day you canwork on this skill and there's
going to be something new tolearn, there's gonna be
(10:30):
something new to try out, and itmay work.
In some situations it may notwork, you know, in some
situations People are different.
So one communication tool youuse with one person and it seems
to you know just how to makethem tick the way you want them
to tick.
And then you try it on somebodyelse and it kind of like just
(10:51):
falls flat right there.
So that's what makes itinteresting and exciting and
frustrating all at the same time.
Because if you're the type ofperson where just give me one
thing that's gonna make itbetter, no, that's not how this
works.
That's not by any stretch ofthe imagination, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm really glad you brought that up, jen, because in
my blog post today I referencedI believe it was Atul Gawande
who noted the difference betweencomplicated problems and
complex problems.
Right, complicated problems maybe difficult, but once you find
(11:33):
the solution, you can replicatethat solution and it will fix
the problem next time it comesup.
But with human beings andcommunication, those are complex
problems.
One size does not fit all.
Those are case by casesolutions.
(11:54):
That's why HR departments get insuch trouble.
They're always trying to createreplicable solutions for
complex problems.
Yeah, it doesn't work.
People get frustrated.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's such a fantasticexample.
In the workplace, one persondoes something that kind of
screws it up for everybody elseand instead of addressing with
that one individual, or insteadof looking at okay, in this one
instance, this is what happened.
Now let's punish everybody orlet's make up a new rule.
(12:30):
Everybody has to use anotherguideline.
Maybe that's not even necessaryin the workplace, but you're
making me think of your workwith improv and creativity,
talking about how humans arecomplex beings and communication
(12:54):
.
There is not some silver bulletout there that's gonna be able
to just fix the problem foreverybody across the board.
I would imagine that havingthose improv skills really is.
That's a tool that you can usethat is really effective in
(13:14):
different scenarios and withdifferent people.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat that.
How did you take me back to youwhen you first started
developing your own improvskills and how did that?
Over the years, how have youbeen able to hone those skills
in a communication sense?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Really good question, jen.
Thank you for that.
And yeah, there's a lot ofjuice in that question.
Yeah, oh good.
As an introvert, one of thereasons theater and scripts
appeal to me is that theplaywright gives you the words
to say, right, yeah, yeah.
(13:57):
And so weaning myself off ofthat dependency was truly not
easy.
I think I had a belief that Iwouldn't be able to come up with
the words I needed to say whenI needed to say them, and I'd
had multiple examples throughoutmy life of someone saying
(14:21):
something to me and my reactionbeing one like dear in the
headlights.
It's like the world slows down,like what did you just tell me?
Right, yeah?
My brain has just gonecompletely blank.
Yeah, yeah, the hiccup.
So the hiccup, absolutely thehiccup.
(14:44):
And so I think that sort ofvisceral experience made going
into improvisation reallytrepidatious.
But the way that I got into itwas through a fabulous
improvisation form calledPlayback Theater.
(15:04):
Playback Theater and you canlook this up.
It's all over the globe.
It's been around since the 70s,but it's kind of a best kept
secret.
It doesn't tend to callattention to itself the way
movies and Broadway does,because Playback is about real
(15:27):
people telling true stories, andPlayback is an improv form that
will play those stories back inreal time according to some
improvisational structures.
So it's structuredimprovisation.
And I was part of that troupefor 15 years.
(15:49):
So what teased me intoimprovisation was the true story
element.
People's true stories of allwas fascinated me, which is one
of the impetuses behind my book.
I wanted to tell the truestories of people who came to me
with issues aroundcommunication and listening,
(16:14):
discoveries that we found in mywork with them.
That built part of the modelfor this book Head, heart and
Hand Listening.
But for improvisation I had tobuild trust in myself slowly,
and that's really what it isit's trust in yourself.
So there's that, but there'salso, I think, the other gift
(16:41):
that improvisation gave mepersonally is the ability to
step outside the boundaries ofthe realistic.
The coach program that Iundertook a few years ago was
put together by Shiazad Shamin.
It's called PositiveIntelligence and he outlines
(17:05):
nine different saboteurs that weall have in some combination,
but also five sage powers thatwe can strengthen in order to
mute the influence of oursaboteurs.
I know I'm getting into theweeds here, but no, no, I love
this.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I'm like I'm paying so close attention.
I'm just saying yeah, yeah,it's a comment.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, but one of the five sage powers is Innovate and
he employs a game.
He's got a game going on foreach of these five sage powers,
but the one for Innovate is myfavorite because it's based in
improvisation.
So if you come to me with, oryou come to your group with, an
(17:58):
issue that you would like somebrainstorming on, if we played
the yes and game A, we'd have alot of fun.
B, we would push the envelopeof the group on what is
considered realistic andpossible, right.
So if you came to be with aproblem, is there an issue or a
(18:20):
problem that comes up, a problemthat comes up for you just off?
the top of your head.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
For me personally, yeah, I often feel overwhelmed
by all of the things that I'mdoing and I love all of the
things that I'm doing andsometimes I feel pressure to
maybe give up some of the things, but I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
That's right.
Sometimes I look at all thethings that I'm doing and I
consider them to be hungrychildren.
Right, it's one thing to launchthem, but then you have to
raise them.
Take care of them.
So, yeah, you've got a lot ofhungry children.
I hear you.
I totally relate to that.
So if we were to play the yesand game, there's a couple of
(19:05):
rules.
The language is very specific,right?
So if you come to me with thatproblem and I think, and I say
to you, well, one idea you couldemploy is to make a graphic
drawing of each of these thingsthat you want to do, pin it up
(19:30):
on your wall and put thepriorities visually in the top
row.
Okay, your language around.
Something like that would be oh,what I like about that idea is
whatever you like about thatidea.
Then you would add to that idea, right?
(19:54):
And then I would say towhatever you added oh, what I
like about that idea is, and onwe would go.
Now, past a certain point, youstart to realize these are very
realistic solutions.
These are very on budgetsolutions.
Let's try to get a little bitout there and see what happens,
(20:17):
right, because the nature of thegame is you have got to find
10% of what that person just putinto the circle.
10% validity, it's the 10% rule.
What?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
are the 10% rule.
I'm not familiar with it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
The 10% rule says that every idea, no matter how
wacky and weird, has at least10% validity.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Right.
So instead of saying, oh, thatwill never work because we're
already over budget, and blahblah, and we tried that last
year.
And blah, blah, right, and thatperson who offered that idea
gets shot down and silenced.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And we'll probably keep their mouth shut from here
on out for the rest of the time.
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Right, we've all been in those situations.
And there are people what arethey?
They're called?
They're not pot stirrers, butdevil's advocate.
Yeah, devil's advocate.
Right, my job as devil'sadvocate is to shoot holes in
your idea.
Right, that's what I'm good at,right, I'm good at saying no.
I'm not good at coming up withanything else.
(21:30):
I've all encountered thosepeople in meetings.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So devil's advocate doesn't know what the hell to do
when you play the yes and cameyeah, because suddenly, oh, I
have to not only find 10% ofthat weird wacky idea and
articulate it, then I have tocome up with something of my own
.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, I have to build on that.
I can't just tear it down.
It's easy to tear somethingdown.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Sure is, yeah.
We see that happening inCongress all the time, don't
Right?
Yeah, and I will limit mypolitical views to that
statement, only Right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know, this is such a fantastic point that
you're making with yes, and Ithink all too often, not only
are we very eager to shoot ourown ideas down and we don't even
give them the space they needto grow, and to you know who
cares how crazy that idea seemsat the time, you know, but we're
(22:37):
also very good at knocking downother people's ideas and we
don't even realize we're doingit.
Because the whole devil'sadvocate thing you know, I have
been guilty of that, you knowmyself.
When you're sitting theretrying to think of, quote
realistic solutions to theproblems and then you get so
(22:57):
hyper focused on finding thethings that you can't do, it is
really easy to just go down thatblack hole of negativity and,
okay, well, we just spent, youknow, two hours slamming our
brains up against the brick wallhere and, look, we have
absolutely nothing to show forit.
(23:18):
Now we haven't even movedforward.
And then we want to know why.
We're wondering why?
Because there is no solution?
It's hopeless?
That's not the case at all.
I love that.
I just love the idea of that.
Yes, and If you are anorganizational psychologist, an
(23:43):
HR professional or just someonewho wants to strengthen your
listening skills.
You should pick up a copy ofHead, heart and Hands Listening
today.
This book explores the threelistening modalities of Head,
heart and Hands as active butlargely unconscious lenses that
inform the potency of ourlistening.
It also includes acomprehensive listening
assessment so you can improvelistening in targeted ways.
(24:06):
Get a copy of Head, Heart andHands Listening by clicking on
the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Well, the how to's on the yes and are included in my
book.
So just so you know.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's going to be auseful tool, and I'm going to
make sure that not only do I geta copy of it, but we're going
to put that link in the shownotes as well.
Make sure that everybody elsegets it, because that right
there is worth it alone, and I'msure there are all kinds of
other golden nuggets that arehidden in there.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So just about every golden nugget I know.
Yeah, well, because and this iswhy, when the book got accepted
, I wrote, I think, six bookproposals, with the help of a
wonderful editor, heather Evansat Routledge, finally got the
sixth one accepted and I hadcome up with about 26,000 words
(25:12):
from my book and I thought I'dsaid everything I had to say.
She said, oh, we've accepted it.
And oh, by the way, your booknow has to be three times as
long.
That's right, every goldennugget I ever encountered in my
life is in this book.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You're like what?
So that's when you're like yes,and that's right, Because talk
about a big problem that youhave to solve, like let me use
this, I'm going to apply thisconcept right here, that's right
(25:48):
.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I went to the book.
I'll just talk for a little bitabout it.
It's built on a Waldorf modelof early childhood education,
which is head hearted, handslistening, and I brought it into
the adult training realm.
I've done numerous trainings onthis and I started to get
curious when I was working withthe Department of Environmental
(26:12):
Protection, with their fieldoperators, who were going into
having conversations withlandowners that were trying to
do something that was with theirland, that was in violation of
some environmental code.
So you can imagine the tenor.
These kinds yes, they were notopenly friendly.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
No, they were not friendly?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
No, they were not.
These field operators werescience geeks, head listeners to
the max because they've gotdata retention and in these
conversations they were justlooking for opportunities to
bring more information into theconversation as a way to change
(26:55):
a person's mind, and as acommunication expert, I know you
know how well that worked Likenot at all.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In one ear and out the other.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's right.
Blah blah, blah.
They hired me as acommunications person to come in
and help them.
But right away I understoodit's not so much what they're
saying is what they're listeningfor, and so I had to start
getting them to listen, foropportunities to build alliance.
What's the dream underneath?
(27:29):
Filling in the wetlands Right?
Is he trying to build aplayground for his grandkids?
Is he trying to build a parkinglot?
So he's for his used carbusiness?
You know, whatever it is, getunderneath that dream, position
yourself as an ally, and thenthat person will start listening
to you.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, yeah, because whatever it is that they're
wanting to do, I mean, it'svalid.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
That's right, that's exactly right and you've got to
find that validity.
But it started to get.
I started to get curious abouthow our professions have us
listening for certaininformation and downplaying
other kinds.
You know, we only have acertain amount of attention and
(28:16):
bandwidth, but the stuff thatwe're bypassing in terms of our
own retention and our ownattention can come back to bite
us in the butt, and often does,and that's exactly what was
happening to those fieldoperators.
So that was the initial pieceof work that sparked this book
(28:40):
and sparked the journey for me.
Yeah, and I got curious about myown listening, you know, and as
a communicator and a woman Okay, there, it is gender bias I
assumed that I had heartlistening in space.
And then my daughter startedgoing through a really rocky
(29:01):
adolescence.
She would, you know, she wouldcome home, she didn't have a
date for the prom, her face wasbreaking out.
One of our friends was mean toher.
Night after night, we'resitting on the deck holding her
hand with a tissue box, blowingher nose.
Teen angst, you want angst,adolescent angst in spades.
(29:23):
And I discovered for myselfthat, you know, after a while
I'm like okay, what are we goingto do about it?
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
How can we fix this?
You're speaking my language.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
It's like I've only got so much capacity right, like
a broken record, and so that'swhere hands listening comes into
play.
I I begin with heart listening,but I go to hands listening
pretty quickly, which is anAchilles heel of my own, because
(30:02):
oftentimes, like with mydaughter, you know she would go,
mom, I just need you to listen,right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Which parents I am.
I've been listening all thetime.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Right.
Right, it's like definition ofinsanity, right.
But hands listening is aboutfinding solutions to problems.
So I'm listening for things Icould fix, things I could do
something about.
I'm listening for what couldwork in the future, going
(30:41):
forward.
Heart listeners, with theirreams of empathy, are very much
in the present.
They're engaged with what'shappening one on one between you
and me right now in ourconversation.
They can tune into facialexpressions, vocal body language
(31:04):
, what's happening underneaththe content, very present.
Head listeners are very engagedwith what's already been proven
in the past, what's beendesignated as facts.
They're the people who canretain all kinds of information.
(31:24):
I myself am not a head listener,but I have had listeners in my
life who I call upon right, whohave been extremely valuable in
my own professional process, andI know that there are ways I
can amplify my own headlistening, which I put in the
(31:45):
head listening chapters in thebook.
But each of us has a couple ofdifferent modalities, most of us
specialized maybe in one, maybetwo.
Right, it's a rare bird that'sgot all three.
There's a fun assessment, bothonline at kimdakencom, where I
(32:07):
tell you a true story thathappened to me and you can tease
out your own head listeningmodality, or it's also in the
book a comprehensive assessment,but it's a lot of fun.
So that's kind of it in thatnutshell.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you bringing up the
listening, because that issomething that I think a lot of
people struggle with.
We find ourselves in troublewhen we're not aware enough, or
maybe mindful enough, that, aswe're in that moment and we're
having a conversation withsomeone, we can be using the
(32:45):
wrong listening style, andthat's the one thing, and I
think you know I've neverthought about it in these terms
before, but having thisconversation with you it's
really bringing to mind for methat there are even a lot of
improv skills that you'redeveloping.
As you're developing yourlistening skills and identifying
(33:08):
when you need to switch betweenone listening style to the next
, I know for me it's very, verychallenging to use the heart
listening, as you're describingit, and it go on and on and on,
(33:32):
and then it goes away, but thenit comes back and it's like the
same thing again, you know, and?
But I recognize that and I'lltell you a really quick, funny
story.
Listeners have probably alreadyheard this before, but y'all
just deal with it.
So people who know me, you knowI, they know that I it's
(33:55):
challenging for me to have thattype of empathy in the moment
because I am so well, let's justget to the problem.
I'm like you know, just stopwith the emotions, focus on the
problem.
We don't have to worry about itanymore.
I have one person.
She really surprised me.
She was like Jen, you know, Ijust don't see that.
(34:16):
And you, I think you are one ofthe most empathetic people I've
ever met.
I started laughing.
I said I've got you so full.
You know, what has happened isI have learned how to switch to
the type of listening that needsto happen in that moment, so
(34:36):
that I have everybody fold intothinking.
I'm just like sitting there,giving you the space you need
and hopefully that's just all.
But if you come back to me twoor three times, get ready,
because I'm going to be likeyou're upset about this and I
think you have ever right to beupset about this and it's time
(35:00):
let's figure something out.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And listening right there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I'm just making me think of that.
You know talking about yourdaughter as well.
You know my daughter's 25.
So we went through the exactsame thing that teen angst phase
and man, it is difficult.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Oh, it's brutal.
I know I was saying there's gotto be a biological reason for
all of this awfulness, right?
Absolutely yeah.
I bet your daughter, like mydaughter, is one of the most
resilient.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
She's one of the most resilient women in the mid 20s
women.
Oh yeah, I'm so proud of her,you know, and I think it's just
a testament to for for women ingeneral, and you know, I think
we all go through that phase atsome point where we're just
moody as hell and you know, thewhole world is ending and I'm
(36:03):
just being right and I, you know, I, I hate this and that and
the other thing, and it's justyou know, we got into the worst
argument in the middle of adepartment store one time.
I remember she was 13 and we'reshopping for clothes and she
hated everything and I'm like,just just try it on, you don't
have to buy.
But how do you know if youdon't like it, if you don't at
(36:26):
least put it on?
So, the long story short, weended up leaving and not buying
a damn thing, because, aren'tyou?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
There it is, yeah, yeah.
So, moms, we get you, we, webelieve you.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And then, when you're going through all of that angst
and all those descriptions,it's like there's adolescents
and then there's menopause.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, Fun, yeah, so we have all of these things
working against us, which is whyit's so good that we talk about
these things.
You know, like, like the tools,that that you and I have been
talking about, you know it, somedays it works and some days you
(37:12):
know they don't work.
It's okay, it's okay, it's.
It's all a grand experiment inmy mind.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Well, I know you want to get to the elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yes, that so, thank you.
Thank you for transitioning tothat, because I would you know,
this whole time I'll just keeptalking and it'll be like wait a
minute.
We have 10 minutes.
We still haven't gotten to theelevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I do want to do want to.
Before we transition completely, I do want to bring up active
listening Right, describing howpeople describe you.
Yeah, we've all kind of beensteeped now in active listening,
right.
We're, we're mirroring our, ourpersons, our partners, facial
(38:02):
expressions, body language, andwe are asking questions and
digging in deeper.
But I feel like at thisjuncture, for many people who
are in a hurry, yeah activelistening has become acting like
we're listening.
Yes, until the other breath andyou can barge in.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You're so right.
I taught public speaking andhuman communication courses for
18 years and I used to tease mystudents because I we would talk
about listening and I wouldtell them.
Some of you, I can tell youhave mastered the art of fake
listening.
You have been taught so muchabout how do you actively listen
(38:51):
and you're so focused on thosethings, like everything you just
described.
You know the high contact, thehead nods, the right.
It's like if you're, if that'swhat you're thinking about, then
you're not listening.
It's if you're actuallylistening.
You don't even have to thinkabout that stuff.
It's going to come across, youknow, it's going to happen
naturally.
So that was just a fun memoryyou just made me think of with
(39:15):
the students and they wouldlaugh.
They're like, yeah, you'reright.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Busted, that's right?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, you know, you could just see it in their faces
.
You're like you want, want,want.
You've turned into CharlieBrown's teacher.
You know want, want, want.
And they're still looking atyou, but they have that thousand
yard stare.
Yet they still managed to shaketheir head and nod in agreement
.
The right time.
Yeah, so it's, yeah.
(39:46):
So the lesson there?
Folks do not try to fake listenor, you know, do the whole
quote.
I'm doing air quotes, activelistening thing, mirroring and
all of that.
If that's what you're focusedon, you're not going to make a
connection.
That's that way.
Yeah, yeah Instead.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Instead, if you can activate your genuine, authentic
curiosity, that goes a bigdistance.
Even if somebody is talkingabout something droning on and
on and on, if you can find onenugget to ask a question, a good
(40:28):
question, that will take thedroner off the surface of what
they're saying, you have doneboth yourself and the person
who's speaking, a big favor.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, go deep, go deep.
I think introverts areespecially good at that.
I think so too.
Quality yeah yeah, tooting ourown horns, but yeah.
So let's talk about theelevator pitch.
You know it's such an importantskill to be able to develop,
(41:05):
and you know whether you arewalking up to someone that you
know you want to strike up aconversation with because you
think they're the person thatyou need to network with.
Or maybe you're in an interviewand they ask you that question,
that dreaded question.
Tell me about yourself, youknow.
Oh, what the hell do I say tothat?
(41:25):
So, yeah, let's talk about theelevator pitch, and what are
some of the things that youthink could help us become
better at that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Well, first of all, I think we should ditch the pitch
and I think we can create avery short story that will tell
the person asking more about whowe are.
Using three ingredients Okay,something about who you are,
(41:59):
something authentic, you know.
Example, I'm a working mom anda small business owner.
We're appalling with how tomake online meetings more
engaging, yeah, okay.
So that's a problem I'm workingwith, or something I'm curious
about.
Right, it's not the whole story, but there are some good
(42:19):
ingredients in there, yeah.
Next, something about whatyou've done, so you have a
chance to establish credibility,right.
So, for example, when I wastalking about Nugget, I got a
team together to produce anonline bookmarking app called
Nugget, and even though I'm nota techie, it turns out I'm
(42:44):
really good in the pitchcontests.
Yeah, and you can add anelement of good news Right.
Good news, so for a nice price.
And better news right.
This gained me three newentrepreneurs as presentation,
training and pitch coachingclients.
(43:06):
So something about what I wantis the last ingredients.
I love working with introvertsand entrepreneurs on the cusp of
greater visibility.
If you know someone who coulduse my services, I'd love for
you to get in touch with me.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Right, I really like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
So that is all put together in one of my blog posts
that I can send you the linkdirectly to as a way to put that
together.
It's concise, you don't have togo off into too many rabbit
holes.
I like the addition personallyabout good news and better news.
You stay positive, right, andthe call to action right, the
(43:58):
something you want, as long asyou make that kind of open ended
.
Do you know anybody who coulduse?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
my service.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
If you do have them, get in touch with me.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah.
That is such a fantastic way togain some insight into someone,
just as you were describingyour own story and that
experience that you had andgoing into nugget and putting
that team together and how youwere describing that.
It just makes me think of okay,here's someone who is
(44:33):
resourceful, someone who canreach out to others, someone who
is probably a good team player.
Now here's someone who is agood problem solver, not afraid
to do something new anddifferent.
I got all kinds of stuff out ofthat, just from you sharing
(44:53):
that one teeny, tiny story andtaking it through those steps
that you went through.
I really like that.
I've heard a lot of tools thatpeople will introduce to do that
elevator pitch, and you'reright.
Even just the sound of the wordpitch it just in some way comes
(45:18):
off as disingenuousnet.
It sure does.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, that's right, pitch makes us twitch.
Yeah, like, oh, here we go,here we go.
Yeah, I've got to jump intosales mode now, right.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
And that's what it is .
You hit the nail on the headright there.
It's sales mode.
And here comes the laundry listof all of the positive
adjectives that I can come upwith to try to describe myself
without really getting too deep,without really getting you to
(45:56):
see who I am as a person.
That's right, yeah, yeah.
So I really really appreciateyou sharing that with us, when
you think about it.
Earlier I said whether there'ssomebody that you want to strike
up a conversation with veryquickly, or if you're already in
the interview.
They ask you that tell me aboutyourself question.
(46:19):
What a fantastic way to answerthat question.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
That's right.
You just need to keep a coupleof ingredients in mind.
Yeah, and you're telling them astory, right, right?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yeah, and that's how we connect.
That's right.
So I feel like in our stories.
I feel like in just this timethat you and I have had this
conversation and sharing ourdifferent stories, I can already
tell that if you and I wereable to meet in real life and
just have dinner and maybe acouple of glasses of wine, I
mean it would have been pullingup all nighter.
(46:55):
I just feel like I know you sowell just from listening to you
share your stories and I am ableto feel that connection with
you now because of that.
And wow, so what a powerful wayto exemplify the things that
(47:16):
you're talking about in yourbook and I'm sure what you talk
about when you go into differentorganizations and work with
different teams.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic.
I love to pull together aworkshop for women on this
elevator pitch.
Yeah, we could have a lot offun.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
So you have sparked something.
You sparked a new idea for me.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I know this is the great thing about having these
conversations, right.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Right, jen, this has been delightful.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, all right , you know let's go ahead and
wrap it up, because we'realready coming up on 50 minutes
here.
So time flies when you havetime, but I don't want to end
the conversation without givingyou the opportunity.
Is there something that youfeel is important that our
listeners hear from you beforewe wrap things up?
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I would just encourage them to come and check
out my website, kymdakincom,and have a sample coaching
session with me.
We could have a lot of fun.
I use the positive intelligencemodel, but I also use a lot of
(48:37):
improv and a lot of the thingsthat we talked about today, so
I'm just inviting people to showup.
Try it, you might like it.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, I bet they will , and you have inspired me to
look up some improv classes thatmight be happening around me.
Beautiful, it was calledPlaybook, a Playback.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Playback.
Yes, and there are most likelya company in town near you.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, I'm going to look it up.
I'm going to go have some funwith that because I think we can
do that.
Yeah, we all need a little fun,we sure do we?
Speaker 1 (49:13):
sure, do All right, kim.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
It has been such a pleasure having you on the show,
having this conversation withyou.
I feel inspired, I feel hopeful, I feel motivated, and I know
the listeners feel the exactsame way and I do hope that
you'll consider coming back atsome point maybe, you know,
after the new year.
We'll just touch base again,and there are lots of things
(49:38):
that we can continue thisconversation about.
Yes, indeed, thank you so muchJen.
Absolutely All right.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
More plug for the book.
Yeah, you go to the Routledgewebsite R-O-U-T-L-E-D-G-E and
look up Head, heart and HandsListening.
You can get a discount on thebook price through the end of
the month.
Okay, august 3rd first.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Okay, Well, thank you for sharing that.
All right, Listeners, I knowyou enjoyed this as much as I
did.
I really hope that you take thethings that we talked about to
heart, apply them, practice themand practice them some more,
because that's whatcommunication skills are all
about.
It's just, you know the grandexperiment.
(50:30):
Just keep working at it.
All right, I hope you all havea wonderful rest of your day and
we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Thanks so much.
Jen Take care you too.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, Think about it on social
media or leave a rating and areview.
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
Let me paint a picture for you.
(00:31):
You are at a networking event,or you could even be at a party,
or maybe you're just out in arestaurant and you see that one
person from work who can makethings happen and you know this
is your one shot at having avery quick conversation with
them, so you can introduceyourself and try to make an
(00:53):
impact.
The one problem is you have noidea what in the hell you want
to say.
This is what we call theelevator pitch, the dreaded
elevator pitch, and we have allbeen there.
So this is one of many reasonswhy I have asked my guest to be
here today, kim Deakin.
(01:13):
She is going to help lead usthrough this very troublesome
topic of the elevator pitch, butshe also has some really great
things that I want to talk toher about.
As far as communication skillsgoes, she is a trainer,
consultant, coach.
She is an author.
She has helped so manyorganizations improve their team
(01:36):
building and how to bringpeople in and just be a part of
the culture that exists withinthat organization.
So we are going to talk also alittle bit about improv and
creativity and how we mightapply those concepts in order to
become more effectivecommunicators.
So, kim, I don't know if youcan tell, but I'm super stoked
(01:57):
that you're here.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I can tell that and I'm super stoked.
Likewise, that's awesome.
I love your podcast.
I love the topic.
People think communications islike this broad catch-all topic
but, it's the source of so manyother things, and that's why
it's important and I'm justthrilled to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
We're going to have a lot of fun, Absolutely yeah,
and thank you for saying that.
One of my biggest pet peevesbecause it is just a huge
umbrella term communication, andwe could narrow down that focus
in so many different ways.
But the one thing I don't likeis when I hear somebody call it
a soft skill.
I'm like there ain't nothingsoft about this.
(02:47):
This is the one skill yourprofessional life, your personal
life if you want to influencethings that are happening in
your community, this is probablythe most important skill you
need to learn to develop.
So, yes, thank you.
Thank you for that little, justrecognition the importance of
(03:09):
what it is that we're talkingabout today.
So for our listeners, would youmind just telling us a little
bit about yourself.
What's your journey?
How did you come to decide thatyou wanted to be a coach and a
consultant in this area?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, well, I have been a trainer for quite some
time, but I've also I spentquite a lot of time in the
performing arts.
I was actually on Broadway fora brief afternoon as an
understudy.
I was also in severaloff-Broadway shows, a couple of
(03:48):
touring shows, so I got rid ofmy fear of being in front of
people fairly early on.
But as an introvert, Iunderstand a lot of the mindset
that we drag along when it comesto being our authentic selves
(04:10):
in public.
And you mentioned improvisation, improvisation.
When you think about it, we'realways improvising all the time,
but whether we do iteffectively or not is another
question.
And I find that when I coachpeople, when I bring in
improvisation, oftentimes it'sthe notion of saying yes to
(04:35):
whatever comes up, saying yes toa challenge, saying yes to a
new idea, saying yes to theperson who needs to have an
in-depth conversation with you.
And I guess if I had a guidingprinciple for my professional
life, it would be that I almostalways default to saying yes.
(05:02):
I'll tell this very brief story.
The pandemic right, theshutdown we all went through it.
We all have our stories aboutthis time.
But I noticed early on, eventhough all of my I had a really
nice juicy year to look forwardto, but it was all in person, so
it all evaporated and I thought, well, the silver lining is
(05:27):
time right.
For the first time in my adultprofessional life, I had days of
unstructured time.
So I decided to write a bookthrough Seth Godin's Writing and
Community program and I decidedto take a class for women in
(05:48):
developing online programs, indeveloping online products.
Now, I am not a techie I trulyam not.
On no planet am I a techie.
But I decided to embrace thisbecause a couple of years prior,
I had put together a card gameto lead groups that were in
(06:09):
conflict through conflict tocollaboration, and I thought I
got great feedback on it.
But part of it was I wonder if Icould put this online.
Well, it turns out I couldn'tfor a variety of reasons, the
first one being you have.
The most important element ofcreating an online product is
(06:34):
addressing the right problem.
So, long story short, the guywho created the class liked the
problem I had come up with,which was how to increase
engagement in online meetings.
Right, everybody's distracted.
Everybody's got their kids andtheir pets and their significant
(06:57):
others in the background.
We're all juggling 50 things.
Somebody takes themselves offvideo and you know that they're
either eating or they'rescratching, or they're trying to
close whatever it is they'redoing.
So he liked that problem and hewas after me to do the second
(07:17):
rendition of the class, and Imean after me.
He emailed me, he called me, hetexted me.
He said I like your problem andI want to work with you on it,
and I have grant money to putbehind it.
Grant money, my attention,right.
So we created together abookmarking app called Nugget.
(07:41):
Nugget was sold last year for anice hefty price.
It essentially gives you theability to take notes and online
meetings without disconnectingyourself from the person in
front of you and without havingto sort through reams of video
(08:02):
to tease out the essentialelements.
So with the push of a button, Ican highlight the text on the
transcript that says this isimportant Pay attention to this.
Plus, I can send only thoseimportant elements to my team,
should I choose to do so.
It was very exciting helpingcreate that.
(08:23):
Yeah, I bet, and I didn't havemuch to do with the technology,
but I became pretty damn good atpitching.
So in these pitch contests, I'min there with 20-somethings who
are looking at me like who'sthis old girl?
Well, I became the Nugget ladyand I became the one to beat.
(08:46):
So saying yes, I would say, isan improvisation concept that
has served me pretty well, andit's one that I encourage other
people to embrace as well withyou know, with certain
guidelines and parameters.
(09:08):
You can't say yes to everything.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It's impossible and we'll make you crazy, that's
right, yeah, yeah, but we dohave to have some boundaries,
but I love the overall conceptof that.
Being able to say yes to thingsis empowering, and sometimes I
think we are our own worstenemies in that we will talk
ourselves out of things beforewe even give it a chance.
(09:30):
I mean, at least if we try andyou know what the entire station
burned down when you weretrying At least you can say you
tried it.
You had no idea if this newtool that you were creating was
gonna take off or not, but youtook that chance, you said yes
to it and it worked out reallywell for you.
(09:52):
I think that's a fantasticexample of one of the reasons
the things that can't happenwhen we allow ourselves to do
that, and at a minimum right,like the Alana Smoreset song.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Right you learn yeah that's right.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Right, you learn, constantly learning, and that's
one of the things about being acommunication person.
You know, if you are focusingon improving your communication
skills, one of the things Ithink you learned very quickly
is that every single day you canwork on this skill and there's
going to be something new tolearn, there's gonna be
(10:30):
something new to try out, and itmay work.
In some situations it may notwork, you know, in some
situations People are different.
So one communication tool youuse with one person and it seems
to you know just how to makethem tick the way you want them
to tick.
And then you try it on somebodyelse and it kind of like just
(10:51):
falls flat right there.
So that's what makes itinteresting and exciting and
frustrating all at the same time.
Because if you're the type ofperson where just give me one
thing that's gonna make itbetter, no, that's not how this
works.
That's not by any stretch ofthe imagination, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'm really glad you brought that up, jen, because in
my blog post today I referencedI believe it was Atul Gawande
who noted the difference betweencomplicated problems and
complex problems.
Right, complicated problems maybe difficult, but once you find
(11:33):
the solution, you can replicatethat solution and it will fix
the problem next time it comesup.
But with human beings andcommunication, those are complex
problems.
One size does not fit all.
Those are case by casesolutions.
(11:54):
That's why HR departments get insuch trouble.
They're always trying to createreplicable solutions for
complex problems.
Yeah, it doesn't work.
People get frustrated.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's such a fantasticexample.
In the workplace, one persondoes something that kind of
screws it up for everybody elseand instead of addressing with
that one individual, or insteadof looking at okay, in this one
instance, this is what happened.
Now let's punish everybody orlet's make up a new rule.
(12:30):
Everybody has to use anotherguideline.
Maybe that's not even necessaryin the workplace, but you're
making me think of your workwith improv and creativity,
talking about how humans arecomplex beings and communication
(12:54):
.
There is not some silver bulletout there that's gonna be able
to just fix the problem foreverybody across the board.
I would imagine that havingthose improv skills really is.
That's a tool that you can usethat is really effective in
(13:14):
different scenarios and withdifferent people.
So tell me a little bit aboutthat that.
How did you take me back to youwhen you first started
developing your own improvskills and how did that?
Over the years, how have youbeen able to hone those skills
in a communication sense?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Really good question, jen.
Thank you for that.
And yeah, there's a lot ofjuice in that question.
Yeah, oh good.
As an introvert, one of thereasons theater and scripts
appeal to me is that theplaywright gives you the words
to say, right, yeah, yeah.
(13:57):
And so weaning myself off ofthat dependency was truly not
easy.
I think I had a belief that Iwouldn't be able to come up with
the words I needed to say whenI needed to say them, and I'd
had multiple examples throughoutmy life of someone saying
(14:21):
something to me and my reactionbeing one like dear in the
headlights.
It's like the world slows down,like what did you just tell me?
Right, yeah?
My brain has just gonecompletely blank.
Yeah, yeah, the hiccup.
So the hiccup, absolutely thehiccup.
(14:44):
And so I think that sort ofvisceral experience made going
into improvisation reallytrepidatious.
But the way that I got into itwas through a fabulous
improvisation form calledPlayback Theater.
(15:04):
Playback Theater and you canlook this up.
It's all over the globe.
It's been around since the 70s,but it's kind of a best kept
secret.
It doesn't tend to callattention to itself the way
movies and Broadway does,because Playback is about real
(15:27):
people telling true stories, andPlayback is an improv form that
will play those stories back inreal time according to some
improvisational structures.
So it's structuredimprovisation.
And I was part of that troupefor 15 years.
(15:49):
So what teased me intoimprovisation was the true story
element.
People's true stories of allwas fascinated me, which is one
of the impetuses behind my book.
I wanted to tell the truestories of people who came to me
with issues aroundcommunication and listening,
(16:14):
discoveries that we found in mywork with them.
That built part of the modelfor this book Head, heart and
Hand Listening.
But for improvisation I had tobuild trust in myself slowly,
and that's really what it isit's trust in yourself.
So there's that, but there'salso, I think, the other gift
(16:41):
that improvisation gave mepersonally is the ability to
step outside the boundaries ofthe realistic.
The coach program that Iundertook a few years ago was
put together by Shiazad Shamin.
It's called PositiveIntelligence and he outlines
(17:05):
nine different saboteurs that weall have in some combination,
but also five sage powers thatwe can strengthen in order to
mute the influence of oursaboteurs.
I know I'm getting into theweeds here, but no, no, I love
this.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I'm like I'm paying so close attention.
I'm just saying yeah, yeah,it's a comment.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, but one of the five sage powers is Innovate and
he employs a game.
He's got a game going on foreach of these five sage powers,
but the one for Innovate is myfavorite because it's based in
improvisation.
So if you come to me with, oryou come to your group with, an
(17:58):
issue that you would like somebrainstorming on, if we played
the yes and game A, we'd have alot of fun.
B, we would push the envelopeof the group on what is
considered realistic andpossible, right.
So if you came to be with aproblem, is there an issue or a
(18:20):
problem that comes up, a problemthat comes up for you just off?
the top of your head.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
For me personally, yeah, I often feel overwhelmed
by all of the things that I'mdoing and I love all of the
things that I'm doing andsometimes I feel pressure to
maybe give up some of the things, but I don't want to.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
That's right.
Sometimes I look at all thethings that I'm doing and I
consider them to be hungrychildren.
Right, it's one thing to launchthem, but then you have to
raise them.
Take care of them.
So, yeah, you've got a lot ofhungry children.
I hear you.
I totally relate to that.
So if we were to play the yesand game, there's a couple of
(19:05):
rules.
The language is very specific,right?
So if you come to me with thatproblem and I think, and I say
to you, well, one idea you couldemploy is to make a graphic
drawing of each of these thingsthat you want to do, pin it up
(19:30):
on your wall and put thepriorities visually in the top
row.
Okay, your language around.
Something like that would be oh,what I like about that idea is
whatever you like about thatidea.
Then you would add to that idea, right?
(19:54):
And then I would say towhatever you added oh, what I
like about that idea is, and onwe would go.
Now, past a certain point, youstart to realize these are very
realistic solutions.
These are very on budgetsolutions.
Let's try to get a little bitout there and see what happens,
(20:17):
right, because the nature of thegame is you have got to find
10% of what that person just putinto the circle.
10% validity, it's the 10% rule.
What?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
are the 10% rule.
I'm not familiar with it.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
The 10% rule says that every idea, no matter how
wacky and weird, has at least10% validity.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Right.
So instead of saying, oh, thatwill never work because we're
already over budget, and blahblah, and we tried that last
year.
And blah, blah, right, and thatperson who offered that idea
gets shot down and silenced.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
And we'll probably keep their mouth shut from here
on out for the rest of the time.
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Right, we've all been in those situations.
And there are people what arethey?
They're called?
They're not pot stirrers, butdevil's advocate.
Yeah, devil's advocate.
Right, my job as devil'sadvocate is to shoot holes in
your idea.
Right, that's what I'm good at,right, I'm good at saying no.
I'm not good at coming up withanything else.
(21:30):
I've all encountered thosepeople in meetings.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
So devil's advocate doesn't know what the hell to do
when you play the yes and cameyeah, because suddenly, oh, I
have to not only find 10% ofthat weird wacky idea and
articulate it, then I have tocome up with something of my own
.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, I have to build on that.
I can't just tear it down.
It's easy to tear somethingdown.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Sure is, yeah.
We see that happening inCongress all the time, don't
Right?
Yeah, and I will limit mypolitical views to that
statement, only Right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know, this is such a fantastic point that
you're making with yes, and Ithink all too often, not only
are we very eager to shoot ourown ideas down and we don't even
give them the space they needto grow, and to you know who
cares how crazy that idea seemsat the time, you know, but we're
(22:37):
also very good at knocking downother people's ideas and we
don't even realize we're doingit.
Because the whole devil'sadvocate thing you know, I have
been guilty of that, you knowmyself.
When you're sitting theretrying to think of, quote
realistic solutions to theproblems and then you get so
(22:57):
hyper focused on finding thethings that you can't do, it is
really easy to just go down thatblack hole of negativity and,
okay, well, we just spent, youknow, two hours slamming our
brains up against the brick wallhere and, look, we have
absolutely nothing to show forit.
(23:18):
Now we haven't even movedforward.
And then we want to know why.
We're wondering why?
Because there is no solution?
It's hopeless?
That's not the case at all.
I love that.
I just love the idea of that.
Yes, and If you are anorganizational psychologist, an
(23:43):
HR professional or just someonewho wants to strengthen your
listening skills.
You should pick up a copy ofHead, heart and Hands Listening
today.
This book explores the threelistening modalities of Head,
heart and Hands as active butlargely unconscious lenses that
inform the potency of ourlistening.
It also includes acomprehensive listening
assessment so you can improvelistening in targeted ways.
(24:06):
Get a copy of Head, Heart andHands Listening by clicking on
the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Well, the how to's on the yes and are included in my
book.
So just so you know.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's going to be auseful tool, and I'm going to
make sure that not only do I geta copy of it, but we're going
to put that link in the shownotes as well.
Make sure that everybody elsegets it, because that right
there is worth it alone, and I'msure there are all kinds of
other golden nuggets that arehidden in there.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So just about every golden nugget I know.
Yeah, well, because and this iswhy, when the book got accepted
, I wrote, I think, six bookproposals, with the help of a
wonderful editor, heather Evansat Routledge, finally got the
sixth one accepted and I hadcome up with about 26,000 words
(25:12):
from my book and I thought I'dsaid everything I had to say.
She said, oh, we've accepted it.
And oh, by the way, your booknow has to be three times as
long.
That's right, every goldennugget I ever encountered in my
life is in this book.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
You're like what?
So that's when you're like yes,and that's right, Because talk
about a big problem that youhave to solve, like let me use
this, I'm going to apply thisconcept right here, that's right
(25:48):
.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I went to the book.
I'll just talk for a little bitabout it.
It's built on a Waldorf modelof early childhood education,
which is head hearted, handslistening, and I brought it into
the adult training realm.
I've done numerous trainings onthis and I started to get
curious when I was working withthe Department of Environmental
(26:12):
Protection, with their fieldoperators, who were going into
having conversations withlandowners that were trying to
do something that was with theirland, that was in violation of
some environmental code.
So you can imagine the tenor.
These kinds yes, they were notopenly friendly.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
No, they were not friendly?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
No, they were not.
These field operators werescience geeks, head listeners to
the max because they've gotdata retention and in these
conversations they were justlooking for opportunities to
bring more information into theconversation as a way to change
(26:55):
a person's mind, and as acommunication expert, I know you
know how well that worked Likenot at all.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In one ear and out the other.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's right.
Blah blah, blah.
They hired me as acommunications person to come in
and help them.
But right away I understoodit's not so much what they're
saying is what they're listeningfor, and so I had to start
getting them to listen, foropportunities to build alliance.
What's the dream underneath?
(27:29):
Filling in the wetlands Right?
Is he trying to build aplayground for his grandkids?
Is he trying to build a parkinglot?
So he's for his used carbusiness?
You know, whatever it is, getunderneath that dream, position
yourself as an ally, and thenthat person will start listening
to you.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, yeah, because whatever it is that they're
wanting to do, I mean, it'svalid.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
That's right, that's exactly right and you've got to
find that validity.
But it started to get.
I started to get curious abouthow our professions have us
listening for certaininformation and downplaying
other kinds.
You know, we only have acertain amount of attention and
(28:16):
bandwidth, but the stuff thatwe're bypassing in terms of our
own retention and our ownattention can come back to bite
us in the butt, and often does,and that's exactly what was
happening to those fieldoperators.
So that was the initial pieceof work that sparked this book
(28:40):
and sparked the journey for me.
Yeah, and I got curious about myown listening, you know, and as
a communicator and a woman Okay, there, it is gender bias I
assumed that I had heartlistening in space.
And then my daughter startedgoing through a really rocky
(29:01):
adolescence.
She would, you know, she wouldcome home, she didn't have a
date for the prom, her face wasbreaking out.
One of our friends was mean toher.
Night after night, we'resitting on the deck holding her
hand with a tissue box, blowingher nose.
Teen angst, you want angst,adolescent angst in spades.
(29:23):
And I discovered for myselfthat, you know, after a while
I'm like okay, what are we goingto do about it?
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
How can we fix this?
You're speaking my language.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
It's like I've only got so much capacity right, like
a broken record, and so that'swhere hands listening comes into
play.
I I begin with heart listening,but I go to hands listening
pretty quickly, which is anAchilles heel of my own, because
(30:02):
oftentimes, like with mydaughter, you know she would go,
mom, I just need you to listen,right.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Which parents I am.
I've been listening all thetime.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Right.
Right, it's like definition ofinsanity, right.
But hands listening is aboutfinding solutions to problems.
So I'm listening for things Icould fix, things I could do
something about.
I'm listening for what couldwork in the future, going
(30:41):
forward.
Heart listeners, with theirreams of empathy, are very much
in the present.
They're engaged with what'shappening one on one between you
and me right now in ourconversation.
They can tune into facialexpressions, vocal body language
(31:04):
, what's happening underneaththe content, very present.
Head listeners are very engagedwith what's already been proven
in the past, what's beendesignated as facts.
They're the people who canretain all kinds of information.
(31:24):
I myself am not a head listener,but I have had listeners in my
life who I call upon right, whohave been extremely valuable in
my own professional process, andI know that there are ways I
can amplify my own headlistening, which I put in the
(31:45):
head listening chapters in thebook.
But each of us has a couple ofdifferent modalities, most of us
specialized maybe in one, maybetwo.
Right, it's a rare bird that'sgot all three.
There's a fun assessment, bothonline at kimdakencom, where I
(32:07):
tell you a true story thathappened to me and you can tease
out your own head listeningmodality, or it's also in the
book a comprehensive assessment,but it's a lot of fun.
So that's kind of it in thatnutshell.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you bringing up the
listening, because that issomething that I think a lot of
people struggle with.
We find ourselves in troublewhen we're not aware enough, or
maybe mindful enough, that, aswe're in that moment and we're
having a conversation withsomeone, we can be using the
(32:45):
wrong listening style, andthat's the one thing, and I
think you know I've neverthought about it in these terms
before, but having thisconversation with you it's
really bringing to mind for methat there are even a lot of
improv skills that you'redeveloping.
As you're developing yourlistening skills and identifying
(33:08):
when you need to switch betweenone listening style to the next
, I know for me it's very, verychallenging to use the heart
listening, as you're describingit, and it go on and on and on,
(33:32):
and then it goes away, but thenit comes back and it's like the
same thing again, you know, and?
But I recognize that and I'lltell you a really quick, funny
story.
Listeners have probably alreadyheard this before, but y'all
just deal with it.
So people who know me, you knowI, they know that I it's
(33:55):
challenging for me to have thattype of empathy in the moment
because I am so well, let's justget to the problem.
I'm like you know, just stopwith the emotions, focus on the
problem.
We don't have to worry about itanymore.
I have one person.
She really surprised me.
She was like Jen, you know, Ijust don't see that.
(34:16):
And you, I think you are one ofthe most empathetic people I've
ever met.
I started laughing.
I said I've got you so full.
You know, what has happened isI have learned how to switch to
the type of listening that needsto happen in that moment, so
(34:36):
that I have everybody fold intothinking.
I'm just like sitting there,giving you the space you need
and hopefully that's just all.
But if you come back to me twoor three times, get ready,
because I'm going to be likeyou're upset about this and I
think you have ever right to beupset about this and it's time
(35:00):
let's figure something out.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And listening right there, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I'm just making me think of that.
You know talking about yourdaughter as well.
You know my daughter's 25.
So we went through the exactsame thing that teen angst phase
and man, it is difficult.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Oh, it's brutal.
I know I was saying there's gotto be a biological reason for
all of this awfulness, right?
Absolutely yeah.
I bet your daughter, like mydaughter, is one of the most
resilient.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
She's one of the most resilient women in the mid 20s
women.
Oh yeah, I'm so proud of her,you know, and I think it's just
a testament to for for women ingeneral, and you know, I think
we all go through that phase atsome point where we're just
moody as hell and you know, thewhole world is ending and I'm
(36:03):
just being right and I, you know, I, I hate this and that and
the other thing, and it's justyou know, we got into the worst
argument in the middle of adepartment store one time.
I remember she was 13 and we'reshopping for clothes and she
hated everything and I'm like,just just try it on, you don't
have to buy.
But how do you know if youdon't like it, if you don't at
(36:26):
least put it on?
So, the long story short, weended up leaving and not buying
a damn thing, because, aren'tyou?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
There it is, yeah, yeah.
So, moms, we get you, we, webelieve you.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And then, when you're going through all of that angst
and all those descriptions,it's like there's adolescents
and then there's menopause.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, Fun, yeah, so we have all of these things
working against us, which is whyit's so good that we talk about
these things.
You know, like, like the tools,that that you and I have been
talking about, you know it, somedays it works and some days you
(37:12):
know they don't work.
It's okay, it's okay, it's.
It's all a grand experiment inmy mind.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Well, I know you want to get to the elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yes, that so, thank you.
Thank you for transitioning tothat, because I would you know,
this whole time I'll just keeptalking and it'll be like wait a
minute.
We have 10 minutes.
We still haven't gotten to theelevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
I do want to do want to.
Before we transition completely, I do want to bring up active
listening Right, describing howpeople describe you.
Yeah, we've all kind of beensteeped now in active listening,
right.
We're, we're mirroring our, ourpersons, our partners, facial
(38:02):
expressions, body language, andwe are asking questions and
digging in deeper.
But I feel like at thisjuncture, for many people who
are in a hurry, yeah activelistening has become acting like
we're listening.
Yes, until the other breath andyou can barge in.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
You're so right.
I taught public speaking andhuman communication courses for
18 years and I used to tease mystudents because I we would talk
about listening and I wouldtell them.
Some of you, I can tell youhave mastered the art of fake
listening.
You have been taught so muchabout how do you actively listen
(38:51):
and you're so focused on thosethings, like everything you just
described.
You know the high contact, thehead nods, the right.
It's like if you're, if that'swhat you're thinking about, then
you're not listening.
It's if you're actuallylistening.
You don't even have to thinkabout that stuff.
It's going to come across, youknow, it's going to happen
naturally.
So that was just a fun memoryyou just made me think of with
(39:15):
the students and they wouldlaugh.
They're like, yeah, you'reright.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Busted, that's right?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Well, you know, you could just see it in their faces
.
You're like you want, want,want.
You've turned into CharlieBrown's teacher.
You know want, want, want.
And they're still looking atyou, but they have that thousand
yard stare.
Yet they still managed to shaketheir head and nod in agreement
.
The right time.
Yeah, so it's, yeah.
(39:46):
So the lesson there?
Folks do not try to fake listenor, you know, do the whole
quote.
I'm doing air quotes, activelistening thing, mirroring and
all of that.
If that's what you're focusedon, you're not going to make a
connection.
That's that way.
Yeah, yeah Instead.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Instead, if you can activate your genuine, authentic
curiosity, that goes a bigdistance.
Even if somebody is talkingabout something droning on and
on and on, if you can find onenugget to ask a question, a good
(40:28):
question, that will take thedroner off the surface of what
they're saying, you have doneboth yourself and the person
who's speaking, a big favor.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, go deep, go deep.
I think introverts areespecially good at that.
I think so too.
Quality yeah yeah, tooting ourown horns, but yeah.
So let's talk about theelevator pitch.
You know it's such an importantskill to be able to develop,
(41:05):
and you know whether you arewalking up to someone that you
know you want to strike up aconversation with because you
think they're the person thatyou need to network with.
Or maybe you're in an interviewand they ask you that question,
that dreaded question.
Tell me about yourself, youknow.
Oh, what the hell do I say tothat?
(41:25):
So, yeah, let's talk about theelevator pitch, and what are
some of the things that youthink could help us become
better at that?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Well, first of all, I think we should ditch the pitch
and I think we can create avery short story that will tell
the person asking more about whowe are.
Using three ingredients Okay,something about who you are,
(41:59):
something authentic, you know.
Example, I'm a working mom anda small business owner.
We're appalling with how tomake online meetings more
engaging, yeah, okay.
So that's a problem I'm workingwith, or something I'm curious
about.
Right, it's not the whole story, but there are some good
(42:19):
ingredients in there, yeah.
Next, something about whatyou've done, so you have a
chance to establish credibility,right.
So, for example, when I wastalking about Nugget, I got a
team together to produce anonline bookmarking app called
Nugget, and even though I'm nota techie, it turns out I'm
(42:44):
really good in the pitchcontests.
Yeah, and you can add anelement of good news Right.
Good news, so for a nice price.
And better news right.
This gained me three newentrepreneurs as presentation,
training and pitch coachingclients.
(43:06):
So something about what I wantis the last ingredients.
I love working with introvertsand entrepreneurs on the cusp of
greater visibility.
If you know someone who coulduse my services, I'd love for
you to get in touch with me.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Right, I really like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
So that is all put together in one of my blog posts
that I can send you the linkdirectly to as a way to put that
together.
It's concise, you don't have togo off into too many rabbit
holes.
I like the addition personallyabout good news and better news.
You stay positive, right, andthe call to action right, the
(43:58):
something you want, as long asyou make that kind of open ended
.
Do you know anybody who coulduse?
Speaker 2 (44:05):
my service.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
If you do have them, get in touch with me.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, yeah.
That is such a fantastic way togain some insight into someone,
just as you were describingyour own story and that
experience that you had andgoing into nugget and putting
that team together and how youwere describing that.
It just makes me think of okay,here's someone who is
(44:33):
resourceful, someone who canreach out to others, someone who
is probably a good team player.
Now here's someone who is agood problem solver, not afraid
to do something new anddifferent.
I got all kinds of stuff out ofthat, just from you sharing
(44:53):
that one teeny, tiny story andtaking it through those steps
that you went through.
I really like that.
I've heard a lot of tools thatpeople will introduce to do that
elevator pitch, and you'reright.
Even just the sound of the wordpitch it just in some way comes
(45:18):
off as disingenuousnet.
It sure does.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, that's right, pitch makes us twitch.
Yeah, like, oh, here we go,here we go.
Yeah, I've got to jump intosales mode now, right.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
And that's what it is .
You hit the nail on the headright there.
It's sales mode.
And here comes the laundry listof all of the positive
adjectives that I can come upwith to try to describe myself
without really getting too deep,without really getting you to
(45:56):
see who I am as a person.
That's right, yeah, yeah.
So I really really appreciateyou sharing that with us, when
you think about it.
Earlier I said whether there'ssomebody that you want to strike
up a conversation with veryquickly, or if you're already in
the interview.
They ask you that tell me aboutyourself question.
(46:19):
What a fantastic way to answerthat question.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
That's right.
You just need to keep a coupleof ingredients in mind.
Yeah, and you're telling them astory, right, right?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yeah, and that's how we connect.
That's right.
So I feel like in our stories.
I feel like in just this timethat you and I have had this
conversation and sharing ourdifferent stories, I can already
tell that if you and I wereable to meet in real life and
just have dinner and maybe acouple of glasses of wine, I
mean it would have been pullingup all nighter.
(46:55):
I just feel like I know you sowell just from listening to you
share your stories and I am ableto feel that connection with
you now because of that.
And wow, so what a powerful wayto exemplify the things that
(47:16):
you're talking about in yourbook and I'm sure what you talk
about when you go into differentorganizations and work with
different teams.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic.
I love to pull together aworkshop for women on this
elevator pitch.
Yeah, we could have a lot offun.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
So you have sparked something.
You sparked a new idea for me.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I know this is the great thing about having these
conversations, right.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Right, jen, this has been delightful.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, all right , you know let's go ahead and
wrap it up, because we'realready coming up on 50 minutes
here.
So time flies when you havetime, but I don't want to end
the conversation without givingyou the opportunity.
Is there something that youfeel is important that our
listeners hear from you beforewe wrap things up?
Speaker 1 (48:16):
I would just encourage them to come and check
out my website, kymdakincom,and have a sample coaching
session with me.
We could have a lot of fun.
I use the positive intelligencemodel, but I also use a lot of
(48:37):
improv and a lot of the thingsthat we talked about today, so
I'm just inviting people to showup.
Try it, you might like it.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, I bet they will , and you have inspired me to
look up some improv classes thatmight be happening around me.
Beautiful, it was calledPlaybook, a Playback.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Playback.
Yes, and there are most likelya company in town near you.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, I'm going to look it up.
I'm going to go have some funwith that because I think we can
do that.
Yeah, we all need a little fun,we sure do we?
Speaker 1 (49:13):
sure, do All right, kim.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
It has been such a pleasure having you on the show,
having this conversation withyou.
I feel inspired, I feel hopeful, I feel motivated, and I know
the listeners feel the exactsame way and I do hope that
you'll consider coming back atsome point maybe, you know,
after the new year.
We'll just touch base again,and there are lots of things
(49:38):
that we can continue thisconversation about.
Yes, indeed, thank you so muchJen.
Absolutely All right.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
More plug for the book.
Yeah, you go to the Routledgewebsite R-O-U-T-L-E-D-G-E and
look up Head, heart and HandsListening.
You can get a discount on thebook price through the end of
the month.
Okay, august 3rd first.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Okay, Well, thank you for sharing that.
All right, Listeners, I knowyou enjoyed this as much as I
did.
I really hope that you take thethings that we talked about to
heart, apply them, practice themand practice them some more,
because that's whatcommunication skills are all
about.
It's just, you know the grandexperiment.
(50:30):
Just keep working at it.
All right, I hope you all havea wonderful rest of your day and
we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
Thanks so much.
Jen Take care you too.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
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