June 27, 2024 • 54 mins
What if you could transform your communication skills and foster deeper, more meaningful relationships? Join us as we welcome Jem Fuller, the brilliant mind behind "The Art of Conscious Communication for Thoughtful Men." Jem’s journey, from dynamic leadership coaching to the mesmerizing world of fire dancing, offers a unique lens on bridging cultural divides and creating authentic connections. His insights into making things commonly understood remind us that true communication transcends boundaries.
We navigate the often tricky waters of ego and open-minded communication. Jem and I dissect how our beliefs intertwine with our identity and the defensive reactions that often follow when challenged. We also explore the critical issues surrounding men's mental health and societal expectations of masculinity. Jem shows why vulnerability is often seen as a weakness and how this perception hinders men from seeking help. From the struggles of military veterans to young men hesitant to express their emotions, we uncover strategies to foster open communication and community support. Tune in to understand the profound impact of communication on mental well-being and discover practical advice for navigating those tough but essential conversations.
Visit Jem's website to learn more: https://jemfuller.com/books/
Book on relationships written by the podcast host, Jennifer Furlong.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
Well, I feel like I want tointroduce this episode as
(00:34):
welcome to the Jen and Jem show,because I'm Jen Furlong and I
have my guest here, which is JemFuller, and so I'm super
excited about having my nextguest on the show.
This is a much different topic.
We're able to focus in on avery specific aspect of
communication, which I don't getthe opportunity to do very
often.
I've had a lot of wonderfulguests on this show and, of
(00:56):
course, it's always centered onthe area of communication, but
today I want to focus inspecifically on men and
communication, and so my nextguest.
He is the author of the bookthe Art of Conscious
Communication for Thoughtful Men, so I am eager to do a deep
(01:17):
dive into your thought process.
What made you want to writethis book?
What are some interesting findsthat you that you discovered
while writing this book?
Jem, thank you for being on theshow and welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me on your show, jen,
and it's nice seeing your name,because autocorrect corrects my
name to be your name.
So so much of my typedcommunication coming to me
through text messages or emails.
People refer to me as Jen, sothere you go.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'll do my best not to make that mistake.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, I don't, I really, I really don't mind, I
don't mind.
Yeah, thanks for having me onyour show.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a fun conversation
and I think it's going to be avery meaningful conversation,
which is, of course, the mostimportant thing.
So, for our listeners, who maynot be familiar with your work
or your background, do you mindjust introducing yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, sure.
So starting from the presentmoment and working backwards, I
guess I currently work as aleadership coach and I help
leaders create healthiercultures in their workplaces.
That's the bread and butterwork that I do.
But my partner and I also runself-discovery retreats in the
Himalayan mountains, in Indiaand Bali and here in Australia.
We love that part of our work.
(02:33):
We've got four I was about tosay four teenagers, but we've
got a 20-year-old, 18, 17 and15-year-old, so we have a busy
household.
Year old, so we have a busyhousehold.
We live down here on on part ofthe southern coast of Australia
in a little surf town.
So lots of nature, surfing,hiking, that sort of thing.
(02:53):
And then the background goes.
I've been running my owncoaching consultancy for 12
years now, and prior to that wasworking as a senior leader in a
multinational travel company.
But prior to that was verycolorful all around the world,
doing everything fromkindergarten teaching in Taiwan
to fire dancing and tattooing,motorcycle courier, volunteer in
(03:15):
third world countries, alaborer, a corporate leader so
many different things.
I still kind of scratch my headas to how I fit it all in, but
it really was me pursuing my, mypassion to immerse myself into
foreign culture.
So I spent the best part of adecade traveling around the
world and really, you know, Ijust had this insatiable thirst
(03:37):
to try and get into culturesthat were so different to where
I grew up in Australia, you know, in terms of the language and
the food and the religion or thespirituality, or you know just
the whole thing and that wasfascinating for me.
And now, as a you know, I'm inmy fifties now and the work that
I do is really aroundcross-cultural connection and
hence the communication piece,and I look back now and it all
(04:00):
makes sense, it all kind of fitstogether and I understand why I
spent so many years in foreignlands.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, I very much appreciate that varied
background and I think one ofthe things that the through line
and all of those experienceswhich, by the way, when I was
reading your bio, I was likethis is really cool.
I mean, hello, fire dancer,traditional tattooist,
kindergarten teacher, what'sgoing on here?
But, I think, for those of uswho genuinely enjoy this thing
(04:31):
we call communication and justreaching out and getting
different perspectives and justlearning from others, every
experience that you have, I'msure you're able to draw from
that experience and then buildonto that experience all the way
up to what you're doing todaywith coaching and working with
organizations and, I'm sure,individuals you know, helping
(04:54):
them build their communicationskills as well.
I'm curious what are some ofthose things, that those
qualities that you think youwere able to take from those
less common experience like thefire dancing.
What are some?
What are some of thosequalities in that particular
(05:14):
experience?
I'm sure you're able to drawfrom some things that you can
think back on now and be able tomake those connections of wow.
That is something that Iexperienced as a fire dancer and
it's absolutely applicable tobeing a good communicator these
days, reaching out and beingable to have an authentic
(05:36):
conversation with someone.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, look, I think to use that example of fire
dancing, no matter where I wasthrowing fire around, whether I
was fire dancing in Asia orEurope or Australia, matter
where I was throwing fire around, whether I was fire dancing in
Asia or Europe or Australia, orwherever I was doing it people
loved it.
And so we have thesecommonalities, us humans.
You don't have to peel back thelayers too far to realise that
(06:02):
we have things in common, andthis translates directly to
communication.
The root of the wordcommunication comes from the
Latin communicatio, which meansa sharing, and the verb
communicare, which means to makecommon.
So communication is to makesomething commonly understood.
What do we have in common?
How can we come to anunderstanding of each other?
(06:25):
That's what communication is,and so, especially when
communication is tricky or beingtested in some way because
there are two different peopleor groups of people that have
different ideas about something,the best place to start is what
do we have in common?
Let's start with what we've gotin common, you know, and then
we can explore.
Once we've created thatconnection over something in
(06:47):
common, then we can explore thediversity of our different ideas
or our different backgrounds orour different ways.
We think the company shouldmove forward, you know, but I
think I think that's the throughthread is that, you know, we
we've got so much in common, uspeople, and quite often, when
people are shouting at eachother across those digital
divides of difference on socialmedia, you know, and whether
(07:10):
someone ideologically isdifferent.
So you might have pro-life orpro-choice, or pro-vax or
anti-vax, or you might have adifferent religious idea or
political idea.
These people are shouting ateach other.
There's a lot of fear that theyhave this fear of difference so
that person over there isdifferent to me.
I don't even know that person.
We haven't even sat down andbroken bread together yeah yeah,
(07:34):
but I fear them.
So I'm going to try, and so Ireact aggressively.
That's what people do and Ithink to to.
You know, I remember this story, jen, when I was back in the
90s, I was backpacking throughPakistan 1998, actually it was
and I was up in the remotenorthwestern regions of Pakistan
, up in the northwesternfrontier province, if your
(08:00):
listeners remember this.
But back in 1998, we think itwas Osama bin Laden sent cruise
missiles or bombed a US embassyin Africa right and then claimed
it, and that was the start ofthe unrest between them and the
US.
And then the US sent cruisemissiles into Pakistan to try
and kill Osama bin Laden.
(08:20):
They didn't get him, but theydid kill locals.
Anyway, that's when jihad wasdeclared.
I was sitting on a bus in remoteNorth Pakistan, a local bus.
I was the only foreigner on thebus and I was sitting next to a
young Pakistani universitystudent and he had the newspaper
with me and he was translatingthe newspaper into English for
(08:40):
me and he was saying jihad hasbeen declared.
This was in 1998.
Yeah, so a couple of yearsbefore 9-11.
Anyway, I had a wonderfulconversation with this young man
because we were talking abouthe spoke English, because he was
a university student, and wewere talking about how neither
of us were invested in, in ourcorresponding countries,
(09:02):
political political parties wedidn't agree with he didn't
agree with, you know theextremist Islamic State.
He was quite a modest, mildPakistani boy who just grew up
in a town and was going touniversity and I was apolitical,
I was anti-establishment.
Actually at the time I wasoutside of the whole thing and
we were having this conversationand he said to me he said, gem,
(09:24):
if I cut your skin here and Icut my skin here, we have the
same color blood.
Yeah, he said, despite thecolor of our skin, we have the
same color blood.
And he looked at me in the eyesbeautifully and he said you and
me, we are the same he said,and it was just such a poignant
(09:45):
moment that I remember, and itwas beautiful.
I felt deeply connected to thisperson who had grown up in a
completely different environmentto me, surrounded by completely
different ideas around life anddeath and what it all means.
But we only had to peel backthe layer that much to realise
that we actually share a lot incommon.
(10:06):
And we all need food and water,we all need shelter, we all
care about our children, we allgrieve when a loved one dies all
of us and anyway.
So I'm a bit of a hippie atheart and I think that if we can
improve our communication andour ability to connect and
understand each other, the worldwould become a better place.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Our ability to connect and understand each
other, the world would become abetter place.
Yeah, I love that story, andyour reference to starting with
what we have in common is soincredibly important in
communication.
I think a lot of the times whenwe are communicating with
someone, we're perceiving to bedifferent from ourselves, and I
use the word perceiving becausewe already have all of these
(10:45):
notions of what we think aboutthat person based on the very
little bit of information thatwe have on them.
And so, if we do take theopportunity to have a
conversation, dig a littledeeper.
Yes, we're not going to agreeon everything.
That's impossible, possible.
Even people you grow up with,friends, family, even people who
(11:05):
are ideologically the same asyou, you're going to have
differences of opinion onvarious topics.
So if you have that desire andwillingness to just have that
conversation and listen, thatdoes not mean you have to agree
with them, by the way.
(11:26):
It just means you know, listento try to understand their
perspective, and even after thatyou may not still understand
their perspective, but at leastit's a start to that
conversation.
So many of us are afraid to dothat or just unwilling to do
that.
In all of the conversationsthat you've had with so many
(11:46):
different people from across theworld, so many different
cultures that you've been ableto just interact with, do you
find that that is somethingunique to us in the United
States or, you know, in inAustralia, or do you think this
is something that's worldwide is?
(12:07):
Have you viewed a difference inhow people are willing to
accept a different point of viewor at least being willing to
listen to a different point ofview.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Look, I'm sure there are cultural trends which I
haven't studied through data,but I do know that humans this
is another thing we have incommon we all have a sense of
identity.
We all have a sense of who Ithink I am.
That's right, all of us, and itdoesn't matter whether you're
in China or Africa, or Asia, orthe US or Australia, or Africa
(12:50):
or Asia, or the US or Australia.
We all have a sense of being anindividual entity.
And what happens is that whenour ideas are challenged, we've,
very literally, we'veassimilated our ideas,
especially our ideological orpolitical or religious beliefs.
We've assimilated them as a partof our sense of identity that's
right and we get very, very ourego, our sense of identity gets
(13:12):
very, very defensive when it'schallenged, because to the ego,
if the ego is challenged, it'sakin to real life and death.
The ego believes that it'sactually in danger of of death
when it's not you know, you canhave a death of ego.
You can have an identity crisis.
I'm speaking firsthand herebecause I've had them.
(13:32):
You can have an identity crisisand you still live.
You still wake up, breathing,in fact.
It's an opportunity tore-identify, to, to upgrade the
software, so to speak, anddevelop, hopefully, an improved
version of who you think you are.
But anyway, to the ego, it'sreal life and death.
So when someone challenges yourideas or your beliefs, that's
(13:54):
why we get super defensive.
When you're defensive, you'renot listening, you're not able
to listen, you're not seeking tounderstand the other person's
point of view, because you'retoo busy trying to defend yours
right and so I think part of thepractice of better
communication, more consciouscommunication, is the practice
of realizing that you can justloosen your grip a little bit on
how you think things should be.
(14:17):
It's just relax your grip alittle bit because maybe there
might be other ways.
And, like you said, jen, whenyou really come to a place of
curiosity as to where the otherperson's coming from and you
really lean in and seek tounderstand, that doesn't mean
that you have to agree with themat the end of it, and you might
not completely understand themeither.
(14:37):
But the practice of seeking tounderstand means that you're
loosening your grip a little biton how you think things should
be and who.
You think you are right, and Ithink that's a healthy thing to
do, because then we can expandour consciousness, then we can
be open to learning and growthand re-identification and the
(14:58):
world, like your experience inthe world, becomes easier.
It just does yeah, um, so, so.
So I think the practice of moreconscious communication, which
is being more aware of thecommunication itself and less
defensive, is actually quite aspiritual practice.
Insert here whatever word worksfor you.
If you're not a spiritualperson, call it whatever you
(15:20):
want to call it, but for me it'squite a spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Got a burning question about communication or
do you want to hear more about aspecific topic?
Well, send it our way.
Email us at info atcommunication247.com and you
just might hear your question ona future episode of
Communication 24-7.
Let's communicate about how wecommunicate.
Of Communication 24-7.
Let's communicate about how wecommunicate.
(15:54):
Yeah, I think one of the thingsthat makes it easy for
individuals to keep up that wallwhen we're communicating with
someone that we perceive to bedifferent from ourselves is it
makes it easier, if I don't knowthat much about you, it makes
it easier for me to be able topretend that you must be my
enemy in some way or you're sodifferent from me that there's
just no way we're going to havesomething in common.
(16:20):
I've held a lot of differentpositions within the
communication field and some ofthem within.
You know it touches on politics.
You know, as a media analystand speaking to other media
analysts, when you're readingthe news and talking about some
really difficult having somereally difficult conversations
(16:40):
about tough topics, about toughtopics, when you have those
conversations and you try toseek to understand where the
other person is coming from, youbegin to again not agree with
them because you know you're sopolitically misaligned that
you're not going to agree withthem.
But to be able to justunderstand, okay, I don't agree
(17:03):
with you, but I get that pointthat you made right there.
I understand that one point thatyou just made and I just I
learned something new about thissituation or that organization,
or I learned something newabout you as a person.
You're becoming more human atthat point.
You're becoming more, moreconnected at that point.
You're becoming more connectedat that point and it makes it
(17:24):
much more difficult to view thatperson as an enemy, to view
that person as someone who isjust so at odds with you that
there's absolutely no way toever have anything in common
with them.
And so I try to encourage peopleto have those conversations and
to be open with thoseconversations and understand no,
you do not have to reach anagreement, but just maybe you
(17:49):
might see them as a human beinga little bit more and it might
make it easier to even have moreconversations down the road.
Yeah, so I'm just, I'm just soexcited to hear someone else be
able to express to my listenersthat it how important it is to
just be open to those differentperceptions and and yeah, it's
(18:14):
not going to be an end to yourego, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
No, no, no, no.
Our ego will always be with us.
That's completely fine, but byby developing an expanded
awareness of our ego.
And when our ego is driving thebus, just to be more aware of
that means that the ego is lessable to drive the runaway bus
and our ego is necessarilydefensive and reactive.
(18:39):
When, even when you're sittingon your own and you're scrolling
through social media, and thealgorithms put some clickbait in
front of you, something toenrage you or upset you or make
you go, no, you know the part ofyou that reacts immediately and
just goes no, that's so wrong,that's, that's your ego yes well
, um, your sense of identitygetting super defensive.
(19:01):
And just notice it, just call itout and go oh wow, look at you
jumping straight in there, egoto defend.
And how about if we pause andtake a breath?
Yes and literally loosen yourgrip a little bit and consider
alternative perspective.
Just consider them.
I'm not saying you have to goand change your religion or
(19:22):
change your spiritual beliefs,or or maybe you, maybe they
expand a little bit your ways ofseeing things, but just the
practice of pausing andconsidering alternative
perspectives, that's a healthypractice in itself.
This is a practice ofopen-mindedness you know, so the
next time you're scrolling andyou see something that makes you
go no, or something that makesyou go yes, something that makes
(19:46):
you react strongly, immediately, yeah, put the phone down, take
a breath, notice yourself andthen just consider alternative
perspectives.
You know, I, I, I know thatsounds very simple, but I think
it's a really healthy practiceoh it's, it's such an important
practice.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I say respond, don't react.
And I think it's very similar towhat you're saying is hit that
pause button and acknowledge howit's making you feel.
Think about how your emotionsare impacting not only your
ability to receive that message,but now it's impacting how are
you going to send out a message?
(20:28):
What is going to immediatelyfollow with your emotions?
And I think, at the same time,if you're having a conversation
with someone else and let's sayit's not social media you're
reacting to, but it's someoneelse, you're having a
conversation with someone elseand let's say it's not social
media you're reacting to, butit's someone else you're having
a conversation.
They say something thattriggers you.
You get that emotional response.
That's the time to hit thatpause button, acknowledge how
(20:48):
this is.
This is making me feel acertain kind of way.
So how is this impacting myability to take this message in?
And it's impacting how I'mabout to say something, but also
acknowledge how that otherperson's emotions are
potentially impacting how theyare communicating with you.
I think that certain awarenesscan go a long way and you know,
(21:14):
and, and, and.
Going back to the ego thing, Ithink not taking yourself so
seriously all, the time can go along way.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
A long, long, long way.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, a long way.
I have a friend who lives inPhiladelphia and I went up there
in the fall and so I'mconservative and she's more
liberal, so we're on theopposite ends of the political
spectrum.
We have great conversations,and so when I visited her in the
fall, I went to her apartmentand she just kind of smiled at
(21:49):
me.
She was like, let me take youto my office, I want to show you
some things.
I just hung up on the wall.
I'm like, oh, here we go.
So we go in there and she hasthese huge posters of Barack
Obama hanging up on the walls.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I just started laughing and she was like I knew
you'd appreciate this.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
They're incredible posters.
I like to share that storybecause I think it's just an
(22:34):
example of, regardless of yourbeliefs, your you know your
values.
When you give someone else anopportunity to be able to build
a relationship with you and haveconversations and not allow
your ego to be in the driver'sseat like you were just
describing, you can have such afulfilling relationship with
that person to be able to haveconversations and even if they
push back on you, it is onlygoing to enrich you even further
by being able to haveconversations.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I mean, I love that.
What you just said, jen, aboutyou know, not taking yourself so
seriously, yeah, it's a key toa happier life.
If I meet someone and I askthem how they are and they say,
oh, life's pretty heavy and it'sall pretty full on, and so I
guarantee somewhere in the mixthey're taking themselves way
(23:13):
too seriously.
And the ability to justremember, you know, know, I mean
, I I even still love doing thisright on a clear night.
Go outside, look up at the milkyway in the sky and remember
that we're standing on a tinylittle speck that is orbiting
around a star and we're out onthe edge of the milky way and
(23:36):
the milky way is a disc shapedgalaxy.
And we're out on the edge ofthe Milky Way and the Milky Way
is a disc-shaped galaxy.
And we're out on the edge ofthe Milky Way and looking
through the Milky Way toremember that to cross from our
side of the Milky Way to theother side, traveling at the
speed of light, which is 300,000kilometers I don't know what
that is in miles, but 300,000kilometers a second, all right,
every second you're moving 300000 kilometers.
(23:58):
Traveling that fast, it wouldstill take 120 000 years just to
get to the other side of themilky way right, yeah yeah, and
the milky way is one of notmillions of galaxies that we
know of, it's one of billions ofgalaxies that we know of, right
.
So the whole thing is massive,massive.
And here am I standing downhere on little planet Earth,
(24:20):
getting all upset because I wasstuck in a traffic jam or
something, or because somebodycalled me a name or somebody
offended me or something, andI'm getting all serious about it
.
It's like, oh my Lord, people,can we lighten up?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
a little bit, please.
A thousand percent.
Yes, I am a speck.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, right, and in a second I'm not going to be here
anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
In two generations I won't even be remembered.
My grandkids' kids aren't evengoing to know who I was.
And so why am I taking myselfso seriously?
And I think that when welighten up about how important
we are as an individual, when welighten up a little bit and we
can laugh at ourselves a littlebit, I think that then we're
actually even more effective inour mission or our purpose or
(25:08):
our service somehow doing good.
If you're somebody who's drivento somehow have a positive
impact, whether it's justlocally, as a member of your
family, or whether it's morebroadly, whether you want to get
out into community and somehowdo good work, I think you're
(25:28):
more effective in that good workif you lighten up a little bit
and don't take yourself soseriously.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and you're more apt to be successful in
gathering others to your cause.
You're going to be moresuccessful in getting supporters
, even people who disagree withyou.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, you're more attractive.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
When you're a bit lighter, you're certainly more
attractive, and I think, alsowhen you lighten up a little bit
, because, if you imagine thismetaphor, we were talking before
about holding on too tightly.
So if you're holding on verytightly to the way you think
things are, or to the the path,the journey that you're on to
try and be successful inbusiness, say you, you want to
be successful in your career oryou want to be successful as an
(26:13):
entrepreneur, and you're holdingon very tightly to the way you
think that should go, when thestorms come and they come, when
the challenges come and they docome, you are more likely to
capsize and get get swallowed bythe seas of the storm.
If you're holding on too tightly, you need to loosen your grip a
little bit and go with the flow, so to speak.
You need to be able to.
(26:33):
If the winds change direction,you need to be able to harness
that change in direction.
You need to be able to.
If the winds change direction,you need to be able to harness
that change in direction.
You need to be able to pivot,as everyone was saying during
the pandemic, but you do need tobe flexible and adaptable and
to do that you need to loosenyour grip a little bit and
lighten up a little bit, and sothen, I think, you can harness
flow state more easily, and whenyou're in flow state, you do
(26:55):
your best work, you attract thebest people, you get the best
successes in life.
So it's a real metaphor forliving not only a good life and
a happier life, but a moresuccessful life, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, that's a fantastic metaphor.
I live on the coast of Georgia,in Savannah, georgia, and one
of the things that you'll see onthe beach posted everywhere you
know just be mindful of thetide when the tide when, when
you know the the tide comes andgoes and we have rip tides and
you have to be willing.
Everyone, all the locals, knowif you get stuck in that rip
(27:30):
tide, you're just going to haveto be willing to go with, as
scary as it is, go with thatflow and just it'll take you
downstream, it will just just gowith it.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
You will end up downstream somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
but if you fight against it, you're going to
consistently fight, you're goingto wear yourself out, and then
that's where people end updrowning, because they just
can't fight it's.
It's not something that you'regoing to be able to win that
fight.
Yeah, I love that metaphor, andI think these are all concepts
you know you and I have beenhaving a conversation about that
(28:03):
are universal.
You know, I think, regardlessof your background, regardless
of your gender, regardless ofyour experiences, I think many
of us, many of the listeners,can relate to what we're talking
about.
So I'm curious with the bookthat you wrote.
It looks like you wanted it tospecifically either speak to men
(28:27):
or speak about men.
You know at least what made youwant to take that particular
focus.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
It was actually an idea that was given to me.
I started writing the bookgenerally, for everyone, the Art
of Conscious Communication.
And the reason I startedwriting the book about
communication this is what youand I have in common is that I
believe that communication is atthe bedrock of our ability to
be successful or to live a goodlife in every aspect of what we
(28:57):
do, not only in ourrelationships, but in our
ability to be successful or tolive a good life in every aspect
of what we do, not only in ourrelationships, but in our
ability to be able to manifestan idea into reality.
If you can't communicate theidea, that's just not going to
happen.
You know, to cross thosedivides of difference, to
harness the power of diversityto for us, you know, it's just,
it's fundamental for humanity iscommunication.
And so I started writing a bookgenerally about communication.
(29:19):
And then I engaged a bookwriting mentor and she said to
me Gem, you need to pick anaudience, you need to pick a
niche to write for, because it'stoo broad, and she suggested it
.
She said do you know, I thinkmen could really do with some
help around communication.
And I thought, yeah, I think,generally speaking, I think
you're right.
So I some help aroundcommunication and I thought,
yeah, I think, generallyspeaking, I think you're right.
(29:40):
So I started writing the bookfor men.
I mean, I wrote the book formen and it's interesting because
it's mainly women that buyself-development books, not men,
and I get a lot of emails fromwomen saying thank you so much
for writing the book, I got somuch from it and now I just need
to try and get my husband or mysons or my brother to read it.
Yeah, which which they're doing.
So that's interesting.
But I mean, look, I I am quitepassionate about men and I'm
(30:04):
again, I'm generalizing notevery man, but men in general
and and specifically in ourcultures, the us and australia.
But I am passionate about menupgrading their ability to be
able to communicate, because Ithink it's tied into things like
violence, you know, ourinability to be able to be aware
of our emotional feeling stateand then communicate and express
(30:27):
that as we're going along,rather than it being pent up and
pent up and then exploding inanger.
In anger, I mean 90, I don'tknow whether it's 95 or 97% of
the world's violence isperpetrated by males, and not
only against women, but also menagainst men.
So there's just and I'm I'm apacifist, I don't think that
(30:47):
violence is.
I mean, I understand whenthere's controlled violence in
terms of boxing, and that's notwhat I'm talking about.
I'm talking about uncontrolledviolence in the home and in the
street.
I just think it's so sad andunnecessary and I wish it wasn't
happening.
And I think a lot of it to dowith men is that they don't know
how to communicate.
So there's that side of things.
(31:08):
But then also, even you know,like the old patriarchal
structures that we operatewithin, not only in the
corporate world, but in ourgovernment structures and in our
societal structures, it's apatriarchal structure which is a
structure of dominance.
So for me to be successful in acorporate career, I have to
climb the ladder, I have to beatthe person next to me to get
(31:30):
that promotion.
So it's a competitive climbingon top of each other to survive
and to win system.
And I think that system isbecoming antiquated and I think
that we need to upgrade it and Ithink we should be having a
more feminine style structurewhich is about us together, like
(31:51):
let's raise the tide together,let's be more human centric,
more about we rather than aboutme, and so I think that these
are the changes that humanitywould benefit from, and to do
that we have to be better atcommunicating.
We really do, and so, yeah, soI wrote the book for men and I
(32:11):
know it's helping.
I'm getting some really lovelyfeedback over the last couple of
years of how easy it is to readand how immediately applicable
the practices are.
At end of every chapter there'sa practice and people are
loving it.
And very, very luckily, Ipublished it in australia and I
got picked up in the us by anagent gray and miller agency in
(32:31):
the states, and they got me abook deal which this year, with
mango publishing in miami,florida, and they are we've done
the re-edit, we're doing thesecond edition, they're
rebranding it and and doingnarrating, the, the audio book,
and that's set to be released inaugust, I believe.
And so I've signed a deal withmango publishing in the states
(32:53):
which is as, as a young buddingauthor when I say young, I mean
young author as a young buddingauthor, it's pretty exciting to
have a publishing house pick youup and say we'll publish your
books.
So there's that one which iscoming out in August, and the
book that I'm writing at themoment is called how to have
that Conversation.
(33:14):
And it's about the conversation, the one that you know you
don't want to have, but you wantto have, but you think it
should be good to have, and thatyou're scared to have because
you don't want to upset theother person.
But if you do have thatconversation and it goes well,
it'll liberate you from thisburden you've been carrying.
But we kick the can down theroad.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's like oh, I don't know.
I don't know how to have thatconversation.
And so the book is how to havethat conversation.
That's what's being written atthe moment.
If you've read my book Crackingthe Rich Code, you know it is
chock full of fantastic advicefrom top thought leaders and
super successful entrepreneursfrom around the world.
(33:50):
How would you like to be amember of an exclusive community
that provides that same how-tocontent from those same leaders?
What if you were able to attendmember-only live events and
interact with them?
I'd like to invite you to jointhe Rich Code Club.
It will change the way youthink about yourself, your money
(34:12):
and your life.
It's the only social mediaplatform purely focused on
helping you grow.
Join the Rich Code Club todayfor free by clicking on the link
in the show notes.
Hey, are you liking what you'rehearing on the Communication
24-7 podcast?
(34:33):
Well, do me a favor and goahead and follow us and leave a
five-star review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Your support helps us keep theconversation going strong.
Oh, both books so needed,absolutely needed.
I think everyone is just sohungry for that, and I'm so glad
that your book that's gearedtoward men has been picked up
(34:55):
and is's being published andredone, you know, within the
United States, because I justlooked at.
I pulled it back up because Iknew we were having this
conversation and it was justlast month.
It was the American Academy ofMedical Colleges, they were
talking about men's mentalhealth, and the very first
(35:17):
sentence in the article was menin the United States die by a
suicide at a rate four timeshigher than women, and yet men
are diagnosed with depressionand mood disorders at far lower
rates.
And then the question was whyis this?
And I think that's such animportant question and I think
it ties directly into somethingthat you said regarding men's
(35:38):
communication and within oursocieties and I know you know,
especially within the UnitedStates we do have this
expectation that if you're a man, suck it up.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You know like life sucks right, Life sucks.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Shit happens.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, we even tell our boys don't cry like a girl.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yes, oh, anything you quote like a girl rubs me wrong
way.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
What a ridiculous thing to say.
And and you're right.
And because we have createdthese generations of men who
believe that, to be a man, youcan't be vulnerable.
Vulnerability is a weakness,right?
So that's why men are not beingdiagnosed with depression,
because they're suffering alone,in silence, because they don't
think that they can tell anyoneabout it, because that's
vulnerability and that's weak.
(36:31):
And then I'm not a real man, andso I might as well just get to
the point where I take my lifeit's really sad.
And so I might as well just getto the point where I take my
life it's really sad.
And to communicate consciouslyand authentically, there has to
be some vulnerability, becauseyou have to be vulnerable and
say I'm not great right now, orI'm not feeling, I don't know
how I'm feeling about this, or Idon't understand you, or I
(36:55):
don't have this, I don't have myshit together, don't understand
you, or I don't have this, Idon't have my shit together.
You know, you need to be ableto be okay with vulnerability to
communicate more effectively,and that's where men struggle
with it, I think.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, and what's so fascinating about that in this?
You know, in society's idea ofwhat it is to be a man and you
know and to just kind of man upand suck it up.
I'm a veteran and so I've hadan opportunity to speak with so
many veterans who have served inin the military and in all the
(37:28):
different branches.
I served in the Marine Corpsand I have friends and family
who served in in so many of thedifferent branches where whether
it was Air Force or Army, navy,coast Guard, marine Corps one
of the interesting things that Ihave found in my conversations
is the number that thestatistics are just out of the
(37:52):
roof when you look at theservicemen and women who come
home, the rates of depression,the rates of thoughts of suicide
, you know, ptsd, all of thosethings, repeat, is when they get
(38:16):
out of the military it can besuch a lonely place Like all of
a sudden you're not surroundedby your brothers and sisters who
you were able to have thoseconversations with.
You know, especially ones whoyou you went overseas, you know
you were deployed, you wentthrough war together, you
experienced some true hardshipstogether, but you were together
and they were able to bevulnerable.
(38:37):
They were able to, you know, cryin front of each other and hold
each other and tell each otherlook, we're going to get through
this, you know, and have thatsense of emotional support, that
support system.
And then, all of a sudden, whenyou get out of the military,
you're surrounded yeah, you mayhave family.
Then, all of a sudden, when youget out of the military, you're
surrounded yeah, you may havefamily, you may have friends,
but you're not able to justreally have those conversations
(38:59):
with someone who trulyunderstands what it is that you
went through, and I have notread any studies on this, but my
theory is I think it ties backto exactly what you were talking
about is is not being able tohave those conversations, to
communicate in an authentic way.
What am I going through?
(39:20):
What am I feeling?
How do I feel short?
You know, how do I I all ofthese emotions that that I'm
going through?
I don't know how to expressthem, and I know that you're not
going to understand what it isthat I'm trying to say.
I think there's something therein that you know, and in in the
military and have gone throughsome true horrific hardships,
(39:59):
know that the one thing that didhelp them get survive, that,
you know, get through that withone another, was their ability
to have people with them.
They could communicate in thatway.
I just find it just be afascinating juxtaposition of
expectations versus reality.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Everything you said I agreewholeheartedly with.
And someone very close to me, aman very close to me who's been
suffering chronic depressionand has been suicidal and
chronic anxiety, but has beenkeeping it to himself, apart
(40:36):
from his wife and and close,close friends.
But he's been keeping it tohimself because of the stigma
attached to mental health and hefeels like a failure because of
his struggles.
Anyway, he he's been suicidalfor quite some time and he
finally agreed to going intohospital and he's in hospital.
He's in a mental hospital andhe's having electric shock
(40:58):
treatment and he was so fearfulof going in there and then when
he went in, he was also sayingplease don't tell anybody, I've
gone in here.
I can't bear to think thatpeople know that I'm in here.
Anyway, he's been in for a weekand he's actually met a
community.
I was texting with him yesterdayand he said the nurses are
(41:20):
actually really lovely andthere's a little, there's a
posse of people in here and hesaid they're everyone.
There's lawyers and doctors andlaborers and all sorts of folk
that are struggling the same ashim and they're all in there
together and it's just even justthat even him having a sense of
because he lives on a farm, helives isolated, and even him
having a sense of it's I'm notalone, it's not just me, yeah,
(41:43):
you know, has been alreadytherapeutic for him.
So there's really somethingaround that connection and
communication and and communityof people who understand what
you're going through, who getwhat you're going through, and,
like you said, with all theservice people that have been
through terrible trauma, havingeach other, you know, is so
(42:04):
vital, and I think I've heardfrom other vets as well, that
when you finish your service andyou go home and you're
surrounded by people who don'tunderstand what you've been
through, that it can be soterribly lonely.
And so then, the importance ofcontinuing some sort of
communities with otherex-service people so that you
can still be surrounded bypeople who get it, I think must
(42:26):
be really important.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, it's so incredibly important, you know,
and I've experienced it myself,you know, being a woman veteran.
And then when I meet otherwomen veterans and we start
talking, we start sharingstories and experiences, and
it's like you too.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Not alone in this.
You know it's you don't want tothink of other people suffering
, while at the same time, it'sjust it opens the door to
another connection that you mayjust desperately need.
You know, that connection withsomeone to be able to just get
through the next day, the nextweek.
(43:07):
You know how, however long ittakes, you know.
So what kind of advice or Iguess what were some of the
findings you know as you werewriting your book that would
lead to some advice to, to youngmen and who are still hesitant
about communicating with others,or the idea of being vulnerable
and opening yourself up, topaying attention to your
(43:30):
emotions and then, oh God forbid, sharing your emotions with
other people.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind.
I've been sitting in a men'scircle which is quite literally
a group of us men who sit arounda fire once a month and we sit
around the fire there's noalcohol, there's just water
sitting around a fire with a,with a bottle of water and
talking, and we take in turns.
(43:57):
We go around the circle, wemight pick a theme, you know so
there might be a theme to talkabout that month and you just
literally go around and each manhas the opportunity to to talk
about what they feel or thinkabout that theme, and the other
men just listen.
It's that simple and you coulddo this in your community.
If you're in a community with agroup of friends and you don't
(44:18):
have to see if you can't sitoutside around a fire, just sit
in someone's lounge room butjust go there with the pure
intention of sitting and havingthe opportunity to share how you
feel or what you think, and forthe others to listen 's all it
is.
It's not a therapy session.
You're not trying to solve eachother's problems, you're not
trying to offer each otheradvice.
You're simply listening.
(44:39):
And it's quite a powerful thingto do, and and and it's free,
it doesn't cost anything.
You could just need to get agroup of mates and say, hey, do
you want to try this men'scircle?
And we'll just sit around andtalk.
So that's something that comesto mind.
Another practice that you couldstart a solo practice is just
making some time to sit incontemplation and
(45:03):
self-exploration.
So if you have a family, if youhave a partner and children,
let them know what you're doing.
Just say, hey, on Sundayafternoon I'm just going to go
and sit in the backyard, I'mjust going to go and sit under
that tree just for 15 minutes orhalf an hour and I'm just going
to sit with myself and do a bitof self-exploration, just get
(45:25):
curious around how I'm feelingtoday.
That's it.
That's all I'm going to do.
If you're single and you don'thave a family, go and dedicate
some time and say I'm going togo and sit 15 minutes and sit
there quietly and justcontemplate your internal world
how are you feeling?
And then start to language that.
(45:46):
So I'm feeling calm, or I'mfeeling a bit agitated, or I'm
feeling stressed, or I'm feelingtired, or I'm just start to put
some words to it.
Whatever words come to you.
That's the first step.
And then the second step isstart to share how you're
feeling with someone who cares.
So if it's your partner or yourbest friend, say hey, I want to
(46:08):
get better at communicating howI feel.
So I'm going to startpracticing it and I might be a
bit clumsy to begin with.
I might not be very good at itto begin feel.
So I'm going to start practicingit and I might be a bit clumsy
to begin with, I might not bevery good at it to begin with,
but can I ask that you just lendme your ear occasionally and
just listen while I try andcommunicate how I'm feeling, and
of course the person who lovesyou will say of course you know.
(46:29):
And then you just sit there andkind of bumble your way through
it.
So I I'm feeling a bit agitated, I think.
I think perhaps maybe I'mfeeling stressed and I think I'm
feeling stressed about abc, youknow, whatever that is.
So this is this, this isstarting to communicate your
emotions and and when you, asyou practice this, if you made a
(46:50):
weekly practice and said toyour wife and kids, hey, every
sunday I'm gonna go and sit, situnder the tree and spend some
time, they will support that.
And also the other benefits ofthat is that your children are
learning from example.
They're watching you spend timecontemplating and practicing
self-awareness.
They're going to mirror that.
They're going to be like oh wow, that's a good thing to do
(47:12):
awareness.
They're going to mirror thatthey're going to be like oh wow,
that's a good thing to do.
So you're teaching yourchildren, the next generation,
how to be more contemplative andcommunicative, you know, in
terms of your emotions.
So, yeah, there's a couple of acouple of tips, oh.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
I love that and I especially appreciate you
verbalizing.
It's okay to stumble your waythrough it.
You know communication.
I always say it's a skill justlike any other skill.
You got to work at it to getgood at it, and so you have to
give yourself permission, behuman.
It's not going to start offwith everything being 100%
(47:47):
accurate.
It might feel weird at first,you might use the wrong word,
you know occasionally.
Whatever it is, it's okay, aslong as you just continue to try
it out, continue to work at itand you'll get more comfortable.
You'll get more confident inyour ability to communicate
about those feelings and whatyou're thinking about and how
(48:09):
your emotions are influencingyour ability, you know, to to
connect or communicate withothers.
You know, whatever that, it isthat's bothering you.
Don't give up the first time itdoesn't go well, because, trust
me, it's not going to go wellat some point.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
I mean that's how communication is.
Yeah, completely yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's just how life is.
You know, in general, be gentlebe gentle on yourself.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You know, be gentle on yourself, just just you know,
and and it's the it's theactual act of practicing
communication.
That's the important thing, nothow eloquent you are.
It's that you're actuallytrying to communicate.
That's what's important.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I did want to say just onemore thing very quickly, because
you had mentioned the firecircle, so that you have people
(49:16):
that you can just blow off somesteam.
This is what's going on with metoday.
I just need you to listen to me.
That's so important.
And then the ability to justhave that alone time to reflect
and get your thoughts togetherand practice communicating your
feelings together and practicecommunicating your feelings
(49:37):
that's that's important and Ithink a third part of that is
therapy, you know, and I thinkit's important to be comfortable
with understanding that therapy.
I think everybody, everybodycould use some therapy.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
So that stigma behind .
Speaker 1 (49:50):
you know, I think I need to go talk to a therapist.
I think is much better todaythan what it was even five, 10
years ago, but we still have aways to go and I hope for.
My hope for men is to be ableto, you know, get past that
stigma and to recognize that thestrongest thing you could
(50:11):
probably do, the most courageousthing you could probably do,
would be to be honest in yourdesire, for I need help and I
need professional help.
I need to speak to a therapist,someone who's going to help me
work my way, process my waythrough what I'm going through.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
And also if you are someone whoyou might be fine.
But if you have a friend andyou ask them how they are and
they go, yeah, I'm fine, and youfeel like maybe they're not dig
a little bit deeper, go, hey,are you really okay?
Like I'm here and suggesttherapy for them.
Say, hey, I know a goodtherapist.
(50:49):
Like, do you want to try themout, rather than just letting
them kind of brush it under thecarpet and go, no, no, no, I'm
fine, I'm fine.
If you feel like they may bestruggling, you know there's a
really lovely question to ask.
Rather than just asking hi, howare you?
You could ask hey, on a scaleof one to ten one being really
terrible and ten being couldn'tbe better how are you today?
(51:12):
Give yourself a score out of 10.
It's a great question becauseit makes them actually think
about it and be a bit real.
And if they go, well, I reckonI'm a six.
I go oh, wow, I'm curiousWhere's the four points
difference between a six and youbeing?
You know at your peak, at yourbest, what's going on for you?
Because it creates a more realconversation and I have to
actually answer you then and gowell, I'm actually fighting with
(51:34):
my wife and we've been fightingfor a while now and I don't
know what to do about it andI've got no one to talk with
about it and it's like, oh wow,now we can have a real
conversation.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, that's a fantastic prompt because I can
tell you there are so manypeople who would not even know
how to begin that I'm fine, I'mfine, but they're really not
fine.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
But they wouldn't even know how to say I'm not
fine or explain so you can askfor a score out of 10.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, that's a fantastic way to start that
conversation.
Thank you for suggesting that.
I know someone is going to hearthis and that's going to be so
incredibly helpful for them andthat's the whole reason why I
love having these conversations.
So, if there's anyone out therewho is interested in getting
your book or contacting you,wanting to learn more about you
and see your TEDx talk, all ofthose things where are you?
(52:21):
What's your social media, yourwebsite, all of those things.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Everywhere is Jem Fuller with a J.
J-e-m-f-u-l-l-e-rcom is thewebsite.
Jem Fuller is the handle.
On all the socials you can findme.
I'm really accessible.
If you want to start aconversation, reach out to me
and especially if you reach outthrough the website, that will
come to me and we can starttalking.
The book now.
At the moment, mango Publishingin the States we had to take
(52:48):
down the first edition, take itoff Amazon and Booktopia and all
the places, so you can't getthat anymore.
But I think pre-sales for thesecond edition are happening.
I think if you can't find thebook, contact me through my
website and I'll I'll get youone.
I'll make sure you get one forsure.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Okay, that's fantastic.
I'll I'll be sure to put yourURL in the show notes as well,
to make it easy.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Awesome.
Thanks, Jen.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Click and go.
Yeah, jim, it has been anabsolute privilege to have this
conversation with you.
Thank you so much for writingthis book.
I don't think we talk aboutmen's mental health and how
important it is to communicate,learn those communication skills
for men, and how just linkedthose two topics are mental
(53:35):
health and your ability tocommunicate how you're thinking
and what you're feeling and allof those things.
So I truly appreciate you takingthe time I know it's early for
you in Australia to have thisconversation, but it's been such
a blessing to have you on theshow and I hope we're able to do
this again sometime in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, I'd love that.
That'd be great.
Thanks, Jen.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
All right.
Thank you All right, everybody.
I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
Be sure to check out Jim'swebsite, and I hope you all have
a wonderful rest of your day.
You take care now.
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the
Communication 24-7 podcast.
We truly appreciate yoursupport and love hearing from
(54:19):
our listeners.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please take a moment to share
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And don't forget to follow uson all the social media
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(54:40):
communication.
Thanks again for listening anduntil next time, keep
communicating effectively.
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
Well, I feel like I want tointroduce this episode as
(00:34):
welcome to the Jen and Jem show,because I'm Jen Furlong and I
have my guest here, which is JemFuller, and so I'm super
excited about having my nextguest on the show.
This is a much different topic.
We're able to focus in on avery specific aspect of
communication, which I don't getthe opportunity to do very
often.
I've had a lot of wonderfulguests on this show and, of
(00:56):
course, it's always centered onthe area of communication, but
today I want to focus inspecifically on men and
communication, and so my nextguest.
He is the author of the bookthe Art of Conscious
Communication for Thoughtful Men, so I am eager to do a deep
(01:17):
dive into your thought process.
What made you want to writethis book?
What are some interesting findsthat you that you discovered
while writing this book?
Jem, thank you for being on theshow and welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Thank you so much for having me on your show, jen,
and it's nice seeing your name,because autocorrect corrects my
name to be your name.
So so much of my typedcommunication coming to me
through text messages or emails.
People refer to me as Jen, sothere you go.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'll do my best not to make that mistake.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, I don't, I really, I really don't mind, I
don't mind.
Yeah, thanks for having me onyour show.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be a fun conversation
and I think it's going to be avery meaningful conversation,
which is, of course, the mostimportant thing.
So, for our listeners, who maynot be familiar with your work
or your background, do you mindjust introducing yourself?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, sure.
So starting from the presentmoment and working backwards, I
guess I currently work as aleadership coach and I help
leaders create healthiercultures in their workplaces.
That's the bread and butterwork that I do.
But my partner and I also runself-discovery retreats in the
Himalayan mountains, in Indiaand Bali and here in Australia.
We love that part of our work.
(02:33):
We've got four I was about tosay four teenagers, but we've
got a 20-year-old, 18, 17 and15-year-old, so we have a busy
household.
Year old, so we have a busyhousehold.
We live down here on on part ofthe southern coast of Australia
in a little surf town.
So lots of nature, surfing,hiking, that sort of thing.
(02:53):
And then the background goes.
I've been running my owncoaching consultancy for 12
years now, and prior to that wasworking as a senior leader in a
multinational travel company.
But prior to that was verycolorful all around the world,
doing everything fromkindergarten teaching in Taiwan
to fire dancing and tattooing,motorcycle courier, volunteer in
(03:15):
third world countries, alaborer, a corporate leader so
many different things.
I still kind of scratch my headas to how I fit it all in, but
it really was me pursuing my, mypassion to immerse myself into
foreign culture.
So I spent the best part of adecade traveling around the
world and really, you know, Ijust had this insatiable thirst
(03:37):
to try and get into culturesthat were so different to where
I grew up in Australia, you know, in terms of the language and
the food and the religion or thespirituality, or you know just
the whole thing and that wasfascinating for me.
And now, as a you know, I'm inmy fifties now and the work that
I do is really aroundcross-cultural connection and
hence the communication piece,and I look back now and it all
(04:00):
makes sense, it all kind of fitstogether and I understand why I
spent so many years in foreignlands.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, I very much appreciate that varied
background and I think one ofthe things that the through line
and all of those experienceswhich, by the way, when I was
reading your bio, I was likethis is really cool.
I mean, hello, fire dancer,traditional tattooist,
kindergarten teacher, what'sgoing on here?
But, I think, for those of uswho genuinely enjoy this thing
(04:31):
we call communication and justreaching out and getting
different perspectives and justlearning from others, every
experience that you have, I'msure you're able to draw from
that experience and then buildonto that experience all the way
up to what you're doing todaywith coaching and working with
organizations and, I'm sure,individuals you know, helping
(04:54):
them build their communicationskills as well.
I'm curious what are some ofthose things, that those
qualities that you think youwere able to take from those
less common experience like thefire dancing.
What are some?
What are some of thosequalities in that particular
(05:14):
experience?
I'm sure you're able to drawfrom some things that you can
think back on now and be able tomake those connections of wow.
That is something that Iexperienced as a fire dancer and
it's absolutely applicable tobeing a good communicator these
days, reaching out and beingable to have an authentic
(05:36):
conversation with someone.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, look, I think to use that example of fire
dancing, no matter where I wasthrowing fire around, whether I
was fire dancing in Asia orEurope or Australia, matter
where I was throwing fire around, whether I was fire dancing in
Asia or Europe or Australia, orwherever I was doing it people
loved it.
And so we have thesecommonalities, us humans.
You don't have to peel back thelayers too far to realise that
(06:02):
we have things in common, andthis translates directly to
communication.
The root of the wordcommunication comes from the
Latin communicatio, which meansa sharing, and the verb
communicare, which means to makecommon.
So communication is to makesomething commonly understood.
What do we have in common?
How can we come to anunderstanding of each other?
(06:25):
That's what communication is,and so, especially when
communication is tricky or beingtested in some way because
there are two different peopleor groups of people that have
different ideas about something,the best place to start is what
do we have in common?
Let's start with what we've gotin common, you know, and then
we can explore.
Once we've created thatconnection over something in
(06:47):
common, then we can explore thediversity of our different ideas
or our different backgrounds orour different ways.
We think the company shouldmove forward, you know, but I
think I think that's the throughthread is that, you know, we
we've got so much in common, uspeople, and quite often, when
people are shouting at eachother across those digital
divides of difference on socialmedia, you know, and whether
(07:10):
someone ideologically isdifferent.
So you might have pro-life orpro-choice, or pro-vax or
anti-vax, or you might have adifferent religious idea or
political idea.
These people are shouting ateach other.
There's a lot of fear that theyhave this fear of difference so
that person over there isdifferent to me.
I don't even know that person.
We haven't even sat down andbroken bread together yeah yeah,
(07:34):
but I fear them.
So I'm going to try, and so Ireact aggressively.
That's what people do and Ithink to to.
You know, I remember this story, jen, when I was back in the
90s, I was backpacking throughPakistan 1998, actually it was
and I was up in the remotenorthwestern regions of Pakistan
, up in the northwesternfrontier province, if your
(08:00):
listeners remember this.
But back in 1998, we think itwas Osama bin Laden sent cruise
missiles or bombed a US embassyin Africa right and then claimed
it, and that was the start ofthe unrest between them and the
US.
And then the US sent cruisemissiles into Pakistan to try
and kill Osama bin Laden.
(08:20):
They didn't get him, but theydid kill locals.
Anyway, that's when jihad wasdeclared.
I was sitting on a bus in remoteNorth Pakistan, a local bus.
I was the only foreigner on thebus and I was sitting next to a
young Pakistani universitystudent and he had the newspaper
with me and he was translatingthe newspaper into English for
(08:40):
me and he was saying jihad hasbeen declared.
This was in 1998.
Yeah, so a couple of yearsbefore 9-11.
Anyway, I had a wonderfulconversation with this young man
because we were talking abouthe spoke English, because he was
a university student, and wewere talking about how neither
of us were invested in, in ourcorresponding countries,
(09:02):
political political parties wedidn't agree with he didn't
agree with, you know theextremist Islamic State.
He was quite a modest, mildPakistani boy who just grew up
in a town and was going touniversity and I was apolitical,
I was anti-establishment.
Actually at the time I wasoutside of the whole thing and
we were having this conversationand he said to me he said, gem,
(09:24):
if I cut your skin here and Icut my skin here, we have the
same color blood.
Yeah, he said, despite thecolor of our skin, we have the
same color blood.
And he looked at me in the eyesbeautifully and he said you and
me, we are the same he said,and it was just such a poignant
(09:45):
moment that I remember, and itwas beautiful.
I felt deeply connected to thisperson who had grown up in a
completely different environmentto me, surrounded by completely
different ideas around life anddeath and what it all means.
But we only had to peel backthe layer that much to realise
that we actually share a lot incommon.
(10:06):
And we all need food and water,we all need shelter, we all
care about our children, we allgrieve when a loved one dies all
of us and anyway.
So I'm a bit of a hippie atheart and I think that if we can
improve our communication andour ability to connect and
understand each other, the worldwould become a better place.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Our ability to connect and understand each
other, the world would become abetter place.
Yeah, I love that story, andyour reference to starting with
what we have in common is soincredibly important in
communication.
I think a lot of the times whenwe are communicating with
someone, we're perceiving to bedifferent from ourselves, and I
use the word perceiving becausewe already have all of these
(10:45):
notions of what we think aboutthat person based on the very
little bit of information thatwe have on them.
And so, if we do take theopportunity to have a
conversation, dig a littledeeper.
Yes, we're not going to agreeon everything.
That's impossible, possible.
Even people you grow up with,friends, family, even people who
(11:05):
are ideologically the same asyou, you're going to have
differences of opinion onvarious topics.
So if you have that desire andwillingness to just have that
conversation and listen, thatdoes not mean you have to agree
with them, by the way.
(11:26):
It just means you know, listento try to understand their
perspective, and even after thatyou may not still understand
their perspective, but at leastit's a start to that
conversation.
So many of us are afraid to dothat or just unwilling to do
that.
In all of the conversationsthat you've had with so many
(11:46):
different people from across theworld, so many different
cultures that you've been ableto just interact with, do you
find that that is somethingunique to us in the United
States or, you know, in inAustralia, or do you think this
is something that's worldwide is?
(12:07):
Have you viewed a difference inhow people are willing to
accept a different point of viewor at least being willing to
listen to a different point ofview.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Look, I'm sure there are cultural trends which I
haven't studied through data,but I do know that humans this
is another thing we have incommon we all have a sense of
identity.
We all have a sense of who Ithink I am.
That's right, all of us, and itdoesn't matter whether you're
in China or Africa, or Asia, orthe US or Australia, or Africa
(12:50):
or Asia, or the US or Australia.
We all have a sense of being anindividual entity.
And what happens is that whenour ideas are challenged, we've,
very literally, we'veassimilated our ideas,
especially our ideological orpolitical or religious beliefs.
We've assimilated them as a partof our sense of identity that's
right and we get very, very ourego, our sense of identity gets
(13:12):
very, very defensive when it'schallenged, because to the ego,
if the ego is challenged, it'sakin to real life and death.
The ego believes that it'sactually in danger of of death
when it's not you know, you canhave a death of ego.
You can have an identity crisis.
I'm speaking firsthand herebecause I've had them.
(13:32):
You can have an identity crisisand you still live.
You still wake up, breathing,in fact.
It's an opportunity tore-identify, to, to upgrade the
software, so to speak, anddevelop, hopefully, an improved
version of who you think you are.
But anyway, to the ego, it'sreal life and death.
So when someone challenges yourideas or your beliefs, that's
(13:54):
why we get super defensive.
When you're defensive, you'renot listening, you're not able
to listen, you're not seeking tounderstand the other person's
point of view, because you'retoo busy trying to defend yours
right and so I think part of thepractice of better
communication, more consciouscommunication, is the practice
of realizing that you can justloosen your grip a little bit on
how you think things should be.
(14:17):
It's just relax your grip alittle bit because maybe there
might be other ways.
And, like you said, jen, whenyou really come to a place of
curiosity as to where the otherperson's coming from and you
really lean in and seek tounderstand, that doesn't mean
that you have to agree with themat the end of it, and you might
not completely understand themeither.
(14:37):
But the practice of seeking tounderstand means that you're
loosening your grip a little biton how you think things should
be and who.
You think you are right, and Ithink that's a healthy thing to
do, because then we can expandour consciousness, then we can
be open to learning and growthand re-identification and the
(14:58):
world, like your experience inthe world, becomes easier.
It just does yeah, um, so, so.
So I think the practice of moreconscious communication, which
is being more aware of thecommunication itself and less
defensive, is actually quite aspiritual practice.
Insert here whatever word worksfor you.
If you're not a spiritualperson, call it whatever you
(15:20):
want to call it, but for me it'squite a spiritual practice.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Got a burning question about communication or
do you want to hear more about aspecific topic?
Well, send it our way.
Email us at info atcommunication247.com and you
just might hear your question ona future episode of
Communication 24-7.
Let's communicate about how wecommunicate.
Of Communication 24-7.
Let's communicate about how wecommunicate.
(15:54):
Yeah, I think one of the thingsthat makes it easy for
individuals to keep up that wallwhen we're communicating with
someone that we perceive to bedifferent from ourselves is it
makes it easier, if I don't knowthat much about you, it makes
it easier for me to be able topretend that you must be my
enemy in some way or you're sodifferent from me that there's
just no way we're going to havesomething in common.
(16:20):
I've held a lot of differentpositions within the
communication field and some ofthem within.
You know it touches on politics.
You know, as a media analystand speaking to other media
analysts, when you're readingthe news and talking about some
really difficult having somereally difficult conversations
(16:40):
about tough topics, about toughtopics, when you have those
conversations and you try toseek to understand where the
other person is coming from, youbegin to again not agree with
them because you know you're sopolitically misaligned that
you're not going to agree withthem.
But to be able to justunderstand, okay, I don't agree
(17:03):
with you, but I get that pointthat you made right there.
I understand that one point thatyou just made and I just I
learned something new about thissituation or that organization,
or I learned something newabout you as a person.
You're becoming more human atthat point.
You're becoming more, moreconnected at that point.
You're becoming more connectedat that point and it makes it
(17:24):
much more difficult to view thatperson as an enemy, to view
that person as someone who isjust so at odds with you that
there's absolutely no way toever have anything in common
with them.
And so I try to encourage peopleto have those conversations and
to be open with thoseconversations and understand no,
you do not have to reach anagreement, but just maybe you
(17:49):
might see them as a human beinga little bit more and it might
make it easier to even have moreconversations down the road.
Yeah, so I'm just, I'm just soexcited to hear someone else be
able to express to my listenersthat it how important it is to
just be open to those differentperceptions and and yeah, it's
(18:14):
not going to be an end to yourego, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
No, no, no, no.
Our ego will always be with us.
That's completely fine, but byby developing an expanded
awareness of our ego.
And when our ego is driving thebus, just to be more aware of
that means that the ego is lessable to drive the runaway bus
and our ego is necessarilydefensive and reactive.
(18:39):
When, even when you're sittingon your own and you're scrolling
through social media, and thealgorithms put some clickbait in
front of you, something toenrage you or upset you or make
you go, no, you know the part ofyou that reacts immediately and
just goes no, that's so wrong,that's, that's your ego yes well
, um, your sense of identitygetting super defensive.
(19:01):
And just notice it, just call itout and go oh wow, look at you
jumping straight in there, egoto defend.
And how about if we pause andtake a breath?
Yes and literally loosen yourgrip a little bit and consider
alternative perspective.
Just consider them.
I'm not saying you have to goand change your religion or
(19:22):
change your spiritual beliefs,or or maybe you, maybe they
expand a little bit your ways ofseeing things, but just the
practice of pausing andconsidering alternative
perspectives, that's a healthypractice in itself.
This is a practice ofopen-mindedness you know, so the
next time you're scrolling andyou see something that makes you
go no, or something that makesyou go yes, something that makes
(19:46):
you react strongly, immediately, yeah, put the phone down, take
a breath, notice yourself andthen just consider alternative
perspectives.
You know, I, I, I know thatsounds very simple, but I think
it's a really healthy practiceoh it's, it's such an important
practice.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
I say respond, don't react.
And I think it's very similar towhat you're saying is hit that
pause button and acknowledge howit's making you feel.
Think about how your emotionsare impacting not only your
ability to receive that message,but now it's impacting how are
you going to send out a message?
(20:28):
What is going to immediatelyfollow with your emotions?
And I think, at the same time,if you're having a conversation
with someone else and let's sayit's not social media you're
reacting to, but it's someoneelse, you're having a
conversation with someone elseand let's say it's not social
media you're reacting to, butit's someone else you're having
a conversation.
They say something thattriggers you.
You get that emotional response.
That's the time to hit thatpause button, acknowledge how
(20:48):
this is.
This is making me feel acertain kind of way.
So how is this impacting myability to take this message in?
And it's impacting how I'mabout to say something, but also
acknowledge how that otherperson's emotions are
potentially impacting how theyare communicating with you.
I think that certain awarenesscan go a long way and you know,
(21:14):
and, and, and.
Going back to the ego thing, Ithink not taking yourself so
seriously all, the time can go along way.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
A long, long, long way.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Oh, a long way.
I have a friend who lives inPhiladelphia and I went up there
in the fall and so I'mconservative and she's more
liberal, so we're on theopposite ends of the political
spectrum.
We have great conversations,and so when I visited her in the
fall, I went to her apartmentand she just kind of smiled at
(21:49):
me.
She was like, let me take youto my office, I want to show you
some things.
I just hung up on the wall.
I'm like, oh, here we go.
So we go in there and she hasthese huge posters of Barack
Obama hanging up on the walls.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I just started laughing and she was like I knew
you'd appreciate this.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
They're incredible posters.
I like to share that storybecause I think it's just an
(22:34):
example of, regardless of yourbeliefs, your you know your
values.
When you give someone else anopportunity to be able to build
a relationship with you and haveconversations and not allow
your ego to be in the driver'sseat like you were just
describing, you can have such afulfilling relationship with
that person to be able to haveconversations and even if they
push back on you, it is onlygoing to enrich you even further
by being able to haveconversations.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I mean, I love that.
What you just said, jen, aboutyou know, not taking yourself so
seriously, yeah, it's a key toa happier life.
If I meet someone and I askthem how they are and they say,
oh, life's pretty heavy and it'sall pretty full on, and so I
guarantee somewhere in the mixthey're taking themselves way
(23:13):
too seriously.
And the ability to justremember, you know, know, I mean
, I I even still love doing thisright on a clear night.
Go outside, look up at the milkyway in the sky and remember
that we're standing on a tinylittle speck that is orbiting
around a star and we're out onthe edge of the milky way and
(23:36):
the milky way is a disc shapedgalaxy.
And we're out on the edge ofthe Milky Way and the Milky Way
is a disc-shaped galaxy.
And we're out on the edge ofthe Milky Way and looking
through the Milky Way toremember that to cross from our
side of the Milky Way to theother side, traveling at the
speed of light, which is 300,000kilometers I don't know what
that is in miles, but 300,000kilometers a second, all right,
every second you're moving 300000 kilometers.
(23:58):
Traveling that fast, it wouldstill take 120 000 years just to
get to the other side of themilky way right, yeah yeah, and
the milky way is one of notmillions of galaxies that we
know of, it's one of billions ofgalaxies that we know of, right
.
So the whole thing is massive,massive.
And here am I standing downhere on little planet Earth,
(24:20):
getting all upset because I wasstuck in a traffic jam or
something, or because somebodycalled me a name or somebody
offended me or something, andI'm getting all serious about it
.
It's like, oh my Lord, people,can we lighten up?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
a little bit, please.
A thousand percent.
Yes, I am a speck.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, right, and in a second I'm not going to be here
anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
In two generations I won't even be remembered.
My grandkids' kids aren't evengoing to know who I was.
And so why am I taking myselfso seriously?
And I think that when welighten up about how important
we are as an individual, when welighten up a little bit and we
can laugh at ourselves a littlebit, I think that then we're
actually even more effective inour mission or our purpose or
(25:08):
our service somehow doing good.
If you're somebody who's drivento somehow have a positive
impact, whether it's justlocally, as a member of your
family, or whether it's morebroadly, whether you want to get
out into community and somehowdo good work, I think you're
(25:28):
more effective in that good workif you lighten up a little bit
and don't take yourself soseriously.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, and you're more apt to be successful in
gathering others to your cause.
You're going to be moresuccessful in getting supporters
, even people who disagree withyou.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, you're more attractive.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
When you're a bit lighter, you're certainly more
attractive, and I think, alsowhen you lighten up a little bit
, because, if you imagine thismetaphor, we were talking before
about holding on too tightly.
So if you're holding on verytightly to the way you think
things are, or to the the path,the journey that you're on to
try and be successful inbusiness, say you, you want to
be successful in your career oryou want to be successful as an
(26:13):
entrepreneur, and you're holdingon very tightly to the way you
think that should go, when thestorms come and they come, when
the challenges come and they docome, you are more likely to
capsize and get get swallowed bythe seas of the storm.
If you're holding on too tightly, you need to loosen your grip a
little bit and go with the flow, so to speak.
You need to be able to.
(26:33):
If the winds change direction,you need to be able to harness
that change in direction.
You need to be able to.
If the winds change direction,you need to be able to harness
that change in direction.
You need to be able to pivot,as everyone was saying during
the pandemic, but you do need tobe flexible and adaptable and
to do that you need to loosenyour grip a little bit and
lighten up a little bit, and sothen, I think, you can harness
flow state more easily, and whenyou're in flow state, you do
(26:55):
your best work, you attract thebest people, you get the best
successes in life.
So it's a real metaphor forliving not only a good life and
a happier life, but a moresuccessful life, I think.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, that's a fantastic metaphor.
I live on the coast of Georgia,in Savannah, georgia, and one
of the things that you'll see onthe beach posted everywhere you
know just be mindful of thetide when the tide when, when
you know the the tide comes andgoes and we have rip tides and
you have to be willing.
Everyone, all the locals, knowif you get stuck in that rip
(27:30):
tide, you're just going to haveto be willing to go with, as
scary as it is, go with thatflow and just it'll take you
downstream, it will just just gowith it.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
You will end up downstream somewhere.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
but if you fight against it, you're going to
consistently fight, you're goingto wear yourself out, and then
that's where people end updrowning, because they just
can't fight it's.
It's not something that you'regoing to be able to win that
fight.
Yeah, I love that metaphor, andI think these are all concepts
you know you and I have beenhaving a conversation about that
(28:03):
are universal.
You know, I think, regardlessof your background, regardless
of your gender, regardless ofyour experiences, I think many
of us, many of the listeners,can relate to what we're talking
about.
So I'm curious with the bookthat you wrote.
It looks like you wanted it tospecifically either speak to men
(28:27):
or speak about men.
You know at least what made youwant to take that particular
focus.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
It was actually an idea that was given to me.
I started writing the bookgenerally, for everyone, the Art
of Conscious Communication.
And the reason I startedwriting the book about
communication this is what youand I have in common is that I
believe that communication is atthe bedrock of our ability to
be successful or to live a goodlife in every aspect of what we
(28:57):
do, not only in ourrelationships, but in our
ability to be successful or tolive a good life in every aspect
of what we do, not only in ourrelationships, but in our
ability to be able to manifestan idea into reality.
If you can't communicate theidea, that's just not going to
happen.
You know, to cross thosedivides of difference, to
harness the power of diversityto for us, you know, it's just,
it's fundamental for humanity iscommunication.
And so I started writing a bookgenerally about communication.
(29:19):
And then I engaged a bookwriting mentor and she said to
me Gem, you need to pick anaudience, you need to pick a
niche to write for, because it'stoo broad, and she suggested it
.
She said do you know, I thinkmen could really do with some
help around communication.
And I thought, yeah, I think,generally speaking, I think
you're right.
So I some help aroundcommunication and I thought,
yeah, I think, generallyspeaking, I think you're right.
(29:40):
So I started writing the bookfor men.
I mean, I wrote the book formen and it's interesting because
it's mainly women that buyself-development books, not men,
and I get a lot of emails fromwomen saying thank you so much
for writing the book, I got somuch from it and now I just need
to try and get my husband or mysons or my brother to read it.
Yeah, which which they're doing.
So that's interesting.
But I mean, look, I I am quitepassionate about men and I'm
(30:04):
again, I'm generalizing notevery man, but men in general
and and specifically in ourcultures, the us and australia.
But I am passionate about menupgrading their ability to be
able to communicate, because Ithink it's tied into things like
violence, you know, ourinability to be able to be aware
of our emotional feeling stateand then communicate and express
(30:27):
that as we're going along,rather than it being pent up and
pent up and then exploding inanger.
In anger, I mean 90, I don'tknow whether it's 95 or 97% of
the world's violence isperpetrated by males, and not
only against women, but also menagainst men.
So there's just and I'm I'm apacifist, I don't think that
(30:47):
violence is.
I mean, I understand whenthere's controlled violence in
terms of boxing, and that's notwhat I'm talking about.
I'm talking about uncontrolledviolence in the home and in the
street.
I just think it's so sad andunnecessary and I wish it wasn't
happening.
And I think a lot of it to dowith men is that they don't know
how to communicate.
So there's that side of things.
(31:08):
But then also, even you know,like the old patriarchal
structures that we operatewithin, not only in the
corporate world, but in ourgovernment structures and in our
societal structures, it's apatriarchal structure which is a
structure of dominance.
So for me to be successful in acorporate career, I have to
climb the ladder, I have to beatthe person next to me to get
(31:30):
that promotion.
So it's a competitive climbingon top of each other to survive
and to win system.
And I think that system isbecoming antiquated and I think
that we need to upgrade it and Ithink we should be having a
more feminine style structurewhich is about us together, like
(31:51):
let's raise the tide together,let's be more human centric,
more about we rather than aboutme, and so I think that these
are the changes that humanitywould benefit from, and to do
that we have to be better atcommunicating.
We really do, and so, yeah, soI wrote the book for men and I
(32:11):
know it's helping.
I'm getting some really lovelyfeedback over the last couple of
years of how easy it is to readand how immediately applicable
the practices are.
At end of every chapter there'sa practice and people are
loving it.
And very, very luckily, Ipublished it in australia and I
got picked up in the us by anagent gray and miller agency in
(32:31):
the states, and they got me abook deal which this year, with
mango publishing in miami,florida, and they are we've done
the re-edit, we're doing thesecond edition, they're
rebranding it and and doingnarrating, the, the audio book,
and that's set to be released inaugust, I believe.
And so I've signed a deal withmango publishing in the states
(32:53):
which is as, as a young buddingauthor when I say young, I mean
young author as a young buddingauthor, it's pretty exciting to
have a publishing house pick youup and say we'll publish your
books.
So there's that one which iscoming out in August, and the
book that I'm writing at themoment is called how to have
that Conversation.
(33:14):
And it's about the conversation, the one that you know you
don't want to have, but you wantto have, but you think it
should be good to have, and thatyou're scared to have because
you don't want to upset theother person.
But if you do have thatconversation and it goes well,
it'll liberate you from thisburden you've been carrying.
But we kick the can down theroad.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's like oh, I don't know.
I don't know how to have thatconversation.
And so the book is how to havethat conversation.
That's what's being written atthe moment.
If you've read my book Crackingthe Rich Code, you know it is
chock full of fantastic advicefrom top thought leaders and
super successful entrepreneursfrom around the world.
(33:50):
How would you like to be amember of an exclusive community
that provides that same how-tocontent from those same leaders?
What if you were able to attendmember-only live events and
interact with them?
I'd like to invite you to jointhe Rich Code Club.
It will change the way youthink about yourself, your money
(34:12):
and your life.
It's the only social mediaplatform purely focused on
helping you grow.
Join the Rich Code Club todayfor free by clicking on the link
in the show notes.
Hey, are you liking what you'rehearing on the Communication
24-7 podcast?
(34:33):
Well, do me a favor and goahead and follow us and leave a
five-star review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Your support helps us keep theconversation going strong.
Oh, both books so needed,absolutely needed.
I think everyone is just sohungry for that, and I'm so glad
that your book that's gearedtoward men has been picked up
(34:55):
and is's being published andredone, you know, within the
United States, because I justlooked at.
I pulled it back up because Iknew we were having this
conversation and it was justlast month.
It was the American Academy ofMedical Colleges, they were
talking about men's mentalhealth, and the very first
(35:17):
sentence in the article was menin the United States die by a
suicide at a rate four timeshigher than women, and yet men
are diagnosed with depressionand mood disorders at far lower
rates.
And then the question was whyis this?
And I think that's such animportant question and I think
it ties directly into somethingthat you said regarding men's
(35:38):
communication and within oursocieties and I know you know,
especially within the UnitedStates we do have this
expectation that if you're a man, suck it up.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You know like life sucks right, Life sucks.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Shit happens.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, we even tell our boys don't cry like a girl.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yes, oh, anything you quote like a girl rubs me wrong
way.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
What a ridiculous thing to say.
And and you're right.
And because we have createdthese generations of men who
believe that, to be a man, youcan't be vulnerable.
Vulnerability is a weakness,right?
So that's why men are not beingdiagnosed with depression,
because they're suffering alone,in silence, because they don't
think that they can tell anyoneabout it, because that's
vulnerability and that's weak.
(36:31):
And then I'm not a real man, andso I might as well just get to
the point where I take my lifeit's really sad.
And so I might as well just getto the point where I take my
life it's really sad.
And to communicate consciouslyand authentically, there has to
be some vulnerability, becauseyou have to be vulnerable and
say I'm not great right now, orI'm not feeling, I don't know
how I'm feeling about this, or Idon't understand you, or I
(36:55):
don't have this, I don't have myshit together, don't understand
you, or I don't have this, Idon't have my shit together.
You know, you need to be ableto be okay with vulnerability to
communicate more effectively,and that's where men struggle
with it, I think.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, and what's so fascinating about that in this?
You know, in society's idea ofwhat it is to be a man and you
know and to just kind of man upand suck it up.
I'm a veteran and so I've hadan opportunity to speak with so
many veterans who have served inin the military and in all the
(37:28):
different branches.
I served in the Marine Corpsand I have friends and family
who served in in so many of thedifferent branches where whether
it was Air Force or Army, navy,coast Guard, marine Corps one
of the interesting things that Ihave found in my conversations
is the number that thestatistics are just out of the
(37:52):
roof when you look at theservicemen and women who come
home, the rates of depression,the rates of thoughts of suicide
, you know, ptsd, all of thosethings, repeat, is when they get
(38:16):
out of the military it can besuch a lonely place Like all of
a sudden you're not surroundedby your brothers and sisters who
you were able to have thoseconversations with.
You know, especially ones whoyou you went overseas, you know
you were deployed, you wentthrough war together, you
experienced some true hardshipstogether, but you were together
and they were able to bevulnerable.
(38:37):
They were able to, you know, cryin front of each other and hold
each other and tell each otherlook, we're going to get through
this, you know, and have thatsense of emotional support, that
support system.
And then, all of a sudden, whenyou get out of the military,
you're surrounded yeah, you mayhave family.
Then, all of a sudden, when youget out of the military, you're
surrounded yeah, you may havefamily, you may have friends,
but you're not able to justreally have those conversations
(38:59):
with someone who trulyunderstands what it is that you
went through, and I have notread any studies on this, but my
theory is I think it ties backto exactly what you were talking
about is is not being able tohave those conversations, to
communicate in an authentic way.
What am I going through?
(39:20):
What am I feeling?
How do I feel short?
You know, how do I I all ofthese emotions that that I'm
going through?
I don't know how to expressthem, and I know that you're not
going to understand what it isthat I'm trying to say.
I think there's something therein that you know, and in in the
military and have gone throughsome true horrific hardships,
(39:59):
know that the one thing that didhelp them get survive, that,
you know, get through that withone another, was their ability
to have people with them.
They could communicate in thatway.
I just find it just be afascinating juxtaposition of
expectations versus reality.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Everything you said I agreewholeheartedly with.
And someone very close to me, aman very close to me who's been
suffering chronic depressionand has been suicidal and
chronic anxiety, but has beenkeeping it to himself, apart
(40:36):
from his wife and and close,close friends.
But he's been keeping it tohimself because of the stigma
attached to mental health and hefeels like a failure because of
his struggles.
Anyway, he he's been suicidalfor quite some time and he
finally agreed to going intohospital and he's in hospital.
He's in a mental hospital andhe's having electric shock
(40:58):
treatment and he was so fearfulof going in there and then when
he went in, he was also sayingplease don't tell anybody, I've
gone in here.
I can't bear to think thatpeople know that I'm in here.
Anyway, he's been in for a weekand he's actually met a
community.
I was texting with him yesterdayand he said the nurses are
(41:20):
actually really lovely andthere's a little, there's a
posse of people in here and hesaid they're everyone.
There's lawyers and doctors andlaborers and all sorts of folk
that are struggling the same ashim and they're all in there
together and it's just even justthat even him having a sense of
because he lives on a farm, helives isolated, and even him
having a sense of it's I'm notalone, it's not just me, yeah,
(41:43):
you know, has been alreadytherapeutic for him.
So there's really somethingaround that connection and
communication and and communityof people who understand what
you're going through, who getwhat you're going through, and,
like you said, with all theservice people that have been
through terrible trauma, havingeach other, you know, is so
(42:04):
vital, and I think I've heardfrom other vets as well, that
when you finish your service andyou go home and you're
surrounded by people who don'tunderstand what you've been
through, that it can be soterribly lonely.
And so then, the importance ofcontinuing some sort of
communities with otherex-service people so that you
can still be surrounded bypeople who get it, I think must
(42:26):
be really important.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, it's so incredibly important, you know,
and I've experienced it myself,you know, being a woman veteran.
And then when I meet otherwomen veterans and we start
talking, we start sharingstories and experiences, and
it's like you too.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Not alone in this.
You know it's you don't want tothink of other people suffering
, while at the same time, it'sjust it opens the door to
another connection that you mayjust desperately need.
You know, that connection withsomeone to be able to just get
through the next day, the nextweek.
(43:07):
You know how, however long ittakes, you know.
So what kind of advice or Iguess what were some of the
findings you know as you werewriting your book that would
lead to some advice to, to youngmen and who are still hesitant
about communicating with others,or the idea of being vulnerable
and opening yourself up, topaying attention to your
(43:30):
emotions and then, oh God forbid, sharing your emotions with
other people.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind.
I've been sitting in a men'scircle which is quite literally
a group of us men who sit arounda fire once a month and we sit
around the fire there's noalcohol, there's just water
sitting around a fire with a,with a bottle of water and
talking, and we take in turns.
(43:57):
We go around the circle, wemight pick a theme, you know so
there might be a theme to talkabout that month and you just
literally go around and each manhas the opportunity to to talk
about what they feel or thinkabout that theme, and the other
men just listen.
It's that simple and you coulddo this in your community.
If you're in a community with agroup of friends and you don't
(44:18):
have to see if you can't sitoutside around a fire, just sit
in someone's lounge room butjust go there with the pure
intention of sitting and havingthe opportunity to share how you
feel or what you think, and forthe others to listen 's all it
is.
It's not a therapy session.
You're not trying to solve eachother's problems, you're not
trying to offer each otheradvice.
You're simply listening.
(44:39):
And it's quite a powerful thingto do, and and and it's free,
it doesn't cost anything.
You could just need to get agroup of mates and say, hey, do
you want to try this men'scircle?
And we'll just sit around andtalk.
So that's something that comesto mind.
Another practice that you couldstart a solo practice is just
making some time to sit incontemplation and
(45:03):
self-exploration.
So if you have a family, if youhave a partner and children,
let them know what you're doing.
Just say, hey, on Sundayafternoon I'm just going to go
and sit in the backyard, I'mjust going to go and sit under
that tree just for 15 minutes orhalf an hour and I'm just going
to sit with myself and do a bitof self-exploration, just get
(45:25):
curious around how I'm feelingtoday.
That's it.
That's all I'm going to do.
If you're single and you don'thave a family, go and dedicate
some time and say I'm going togo and sit 15 minutes and sit
there quietly and justcontemplate your internal world
how are you feeling?
And then start to language that.
(45:46):
So I'm feeling calm, or I'mfeeling a bit agitated, or I'm
feeling stressed, or I'm feelingtired, or I'm just start to put
some words to it.
Whatever words come to you.
That's the first step.
And then the second step isstart to share how you're
feeling with someone who cares.
So if it's your partner or yourbest friend, say hey, I want to
(46:08):
get better at communicating howI feel.
So I'm going to startpracticing it and I might be a
bit clumsy to begin with.
I might not be very good at itto begin feel.
So I'm going to start practicingit and I might be a bit clumsy
to begin with, I might not bevery good at it to begin with,
but can I ask that you just lendme your ear occasionally and
just listen while I try andcommunicate how I'm feeling, and
of course the person who lovesyou will say of course you know.
(46:29):
And then you just sit there andkind of bumble your way through
it.
So I I'm feeling a bit agitated, I think.
I think perhaps maybe I'mfeeling stressed and I think I'm
feeling stressed about abc, youknow, whatever that is.
So this is this, this isstarting to communicate your
emotions and and when you, asyou practice this, if you made a
(46:50):
weekly practice and said toyour wife and kids, hey, every
sunday I'm gonna go and sit, situnder the tree and spend some
time, they will support that.
And also the other benefits ofthat is that your children are
learning from example.
They're watching you spend timecontemplating and practicing
self-awareness.
They're going to mirror that.
They're going to be like oh wow, that's a good thing to do
(47:12):
awareness.
They're going to mirror thatthey're going to be like oh wow,
that's a good thing to do.
So you're teaching yourchildren, the next generation,
how to be more contemplative andcommunicative, you know, in
terms of your emotions.
So, yeah, there's a couple of acouple of tips, oh.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
I love that and I especially appreciate you
verbalizing.
It's okay to stumble your waythrough it.
You know communication.
I always say it's a skill justlike any other skill.
You got to work at it to getgood at it, and so you have to
give yourself permission, behuman.
It's not going to start offwith everything being 100%
(47:47):
accurate.
It might feel weird at first,you might use the wrong word,
you know occasionally.
Whatever it is, it's okay, aslong as you just continue to try
it out, continue to work at itand you'll get more comfortable.
You'll get more confident inyour ability to communicate
about those feelings and whatyou're thinking about and how
(48:09):
your emotions are influencingyour ability, you know, to to
connect or communicate withothers.
You know, whatever that, it isthat's bothering you.
Don't give up the first time itdoesn't go well, because, trust
me, it's not going to go wellat some point.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
I mean that's how communication is.
Yeah, completely yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's just how life is.
You know, in general, be gentlebe gentle on yourself.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You know, be gentle on yourself, just just you know,
and and it's the it's theactual act of practicing
communication.
That's the important thing, nothow eloquent you are.
It's that you're actuallytrying to communicate.
That's what's important.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I did want to say just onemore thing very quickly, because
you had mentioned the firecircle, so that you have people
(49:16):
that you can just blow off somesteam.
This is what's going on with metoday.
I just need you to listen to me.
That's so important.
And then the ability to justhave that alone time to reflect
and get your thoughts togetherand practice communicating your
feelings together and practicecommunicating your feelings
(49:37):
that's that's important and Ithink a third part of that is
therapy, you know, and I thinkit's important to be comfortable
with understanding that therapy.
I think everybody, everybodycould use some therapy.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
So that stigma behind .
Speaker 1 (49:50):
you know, I think I need to go talk to a therapist.
I think is much better todaythan what it was even five, 10
years ago, but we still have aways to go and I hope for.
My hope for men is to be ableto, you know, get past that
stigma and to recognize that thestrongest thing you could
(50:11):
probably do, the most courageousthing you could probably do,
would be to be honest in yourdesire, for I need help and I
need professional help.
I need to speak to a therapist,someone who's going to help me
work my way, process my waythrough what I'm going through.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
And also if you are someone whoyou might be fine.
But if you have a friend andyou ask them how they are and
they go, yeah, I'm fine, and youfeel like maybe they're not dig
a little bit deeper, go, hey,are you really okay?
Like I'm here and suggesttherapy for them.
Say, hey, I know a goodtherapist.
(50:49):
Like, do you want to try themout, rather than just letting
them kind of brush it under thecarpet and go, no, no, no, I'm
fine, I'm fine.
If you feel like they may bestruggling, you know there's a
really lovely question to ask.
Rather than just asking hi, howare you?
You could ask hey, on a scaleof one to ten one being really
terrible and ten being couldn'tbe better how are you today?
(51:12):
Give yourself a score out of 10.
It's a great question becauseit makes them actually think
about it and be a bit real.
And if they go, well, I reckonI'm a six.
I go oh, wow, I'm curiousWhere's the four points
difference between a six and youbeing?
You know at your peak, at yourbest, what's going on for you?
Because it creates a more realconversation and I have to
actually answer you then and gowell, I'm actually fighting with
(51:34):
my wife and we've been fightingfor a while now and I don't
know what to do about it andI've got no one to talk with
about it and it's like, oh wow,now we can have a real
conversation.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, that's a fantastic prompt because I can
tell you there are so manypeople who would not even know
how to begin that I'm fine, I'mfine, but they're really not
fine.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
But they wouldn't even know how to say I'm not
fine or explain so you can askfor a score out of 10.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, that's a fantastic way to start that
conversation.
Thank you for suggesting that.
I know someone is going to hearthis and that's going to be so
incredibly helpful for them andthat's the whole reason why I
love having these conversations.
So, if there's anyone out therewho is interested in getting
your book or contacting you,wanting to learn more about you
and see your TEDx talk, all ofthose things where are you?
(52:21):
What's your social media, yourwebsite, all of those things.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Everywhere is Jem Fuller with a J.
J-e-m-f-u-l-l-e-rcom is thewebsite.
Jem Fuller is the handle.
On all the socials you can findme.
I'm really accessible.
If you want to start aconversation, reach out to me
and especially if you reach outthrough the website, that will
come to me and we can starttalking.
The book now.
At the moment, mango Publishingin the States we had to take
(52:48):
down the first edition, take itoff Amazon and Booktopia and all
the places, so you can't getthat anymore.
But I think pre-sales for thesecond edition are happening.
I think if you can't find thebook, contact me through my
website and I'll I'll get youone.
I'll make sure you get one forsure.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Okay, that's fantastic.
I'll I'll be sure to put yourURL in the show notes as well,
to make it easy.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Awesome.
Thanks, Jen.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Click and go.
Yeah, jim, it has been anabsolute privilege to have this
conversation with you.
Thank you so much for writingthis book.
I don't think we talk aboutmen's mental health and how
important it is to communicate,learn those communication skills
for men, and how just linkedthose two topics are mental
(53:35):
health and your ability tocommunicate how you're thinking
and what you're feeling and allof those things.
So I truly appreciate you takingthe time I know it's early for
you in Australia to have thisconversation, but it's been such
a blessing to have you on theshow and I hope we're able to do
this again sometime in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, I'd love that.
That'd be great.
Thanks, Jen.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
All right.
Thank you All right, everybody.
I hope you enjoyed thisconversation as much as I did.
Be sure to check out Jim'swebsite, and I hope you all have
a wonderful rest of your day.
You take care now.
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the
Communication 24-7 podcast.
We truly appreciate yoursupport and love hearing from
(54:19):
our listeners.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please take a moment to share
it on your social mediaplatforms.
Your shares help us reach morepeople and continue to bring you
great content.
And don't forget to follow uson all the social media
platforms X, instagram, facebook, linkedin, youtube and now
TikTok for the latest updatesand more tips on effective
(54:40):
communication.
Thanks again for listening anduntil next time, keep
communicating effectively.
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