February 22, 2024 • 57 mins
Ever felt like you're tiptoeing through a minefield of conflict, unsure of how to disarm the tension? Hesha Abrams, a former litigator now donning the hat of a master mediator, joins us to share her transformative strategies from her book, "Holding the Calm: The Secret to Resolving Conflict and Defusing Tension." This conversation is a revelatory guide to address disagreements with finesse, whether they're simmering at work or boiling over at home. She details her evolution from the courtroom to a mediator's chair, weaving in her dual role as a mother, and underscores the necessity of early intervention in conflicts.
This episode isn't just about averting crises; it's a masterclass in communication that dignifies all parties involved. We dissect the art of validating others—how a few choice words can cool the hottest of heads and turn adversaries into allies. You'll walk away with practical tools for those moments when political debates get heated or when you're confronted with opinions that challenge your own.
Join us for an episode that promises to not just change the way you talk, but potentially transform the way you navigate all of your relationships.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
We have a treat today.
(00:30):
I am so excited about thistopic.
Y'all don't even know one ofthe things that I love to talk
about Conflict management,conflict resolution.
You know my daytime job as amedia analyst.
I love to lean in and talkabout the tough stuff, but many
(00:50):
of us are really hesitant todive into that.
I have a very special guestwith me today.
She is a master mediator.
She's a negotiator and author.
We're going to talk about herbook, which is an amazing book.
I'm going to encourageeverybody to pick it up and she
has traveled around the worldtalking to different audiences
(01:12):
about conflict resolution.
So get your notepads out, takegood notes, because I know we
are going to learn a lot duringthis episode.
Hesha, thank you so much forbeing a guest on the show.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
My pleasure.
Thank you all for listening,Everyone taking time out of
their day.
We know there's so many demandson your time and the fact you
want to listen to this and makeyour life more harmonious and
less acrimonious go you thatsounds wonderful, right?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Who doesn't want that ?
But it's kind of hard gettingto that.
We need to be able to get tothat next step.
So I know the audience isreally excited to hear what you
have to say about thisparticular topic that we're
talking about today.
But before we get to that,would you mind sharing with us
what's your origin story?
(02:05):
Like what made you want to gointo this particular field,
because it's not usual to findsomeone who really enjoys
engaging in these types ofdifficult conversations.
So tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Indeed.
Well, I'm a lawyer and I'vebeen a lawyer for 35 years
already.
And back in the day when youwere a young woman and I had
children, you couldn't do hardlevel, intense work and be a
mother childcare it was aconstant source of difficulty.
And I was doing really highlevel trial work and I found out
(02:43):
about this thing calledmediation and I said wait a
minute.
You talk to people for a living, you solve problems, you work
out deals, and then I couldcontrol it on my own schedule.
So I was a hard litigator forabout five years.
So I have that background in meso that when I talk with
litigators I don't come at thisin a kumbaya, airy-fairy,
(03:07):
win-win problem solving.
Let's all be friendly and talkto each other, because that's
not the real world.
You know that works.
What?
10% of the time?
Okay, for those 10%, 15% even,that's great.
What about the other 85?
When it's somebody that youthink is an idiot or a
narcissist or evil or stupid orpower hungry or immature or fill
(03:32):
in the blank, that's real life.
And to me, when I can go into asituation that's so intense and
so hard and I can help peoplework out a deal and sometimes
it's a cold piece, we just get adeal done.
That's fine.
Sometimes you get every once ina great while you get rewarded
with one of those tiny littlekumbaya moments, but it's very,
(03:54):
very rare.
And that's where the reasons whyI wanted to write this book is
that I know tricks, I know toolsthat our listeners can do today
.
You don't need a master'scourse, you don't need some big
MBA and something.
What can you do today indifficult situations that defuse
the tension?
And that's why I call the bookthe Secret to Resolving Conflict
(04:17):
and Diffusing Tension, because100% of conflict, 100% of it,
starts with tension and thetension can be or it can be, it
doesn't matter.
And I have an analogy that Iwant to announce, a long answer
to a very short question, butI'll give you just one quick
(04:38):
analogy, because people thinkand remember by analogies.
So we've all dropped spaghettisauce on the counter or teriyaki
sauce or barbecue sauce.
Right, take a wet sponge andwipe it up.
It's no big deal.
You leave it overnight, you'rescraping it off of the spatula
Three or four months or three orfour years, and it is old and
(05:00):
moldy and nasty.
And that, my friends, isconflict and we all intuitively
know that.
So why don't we wipe it up witha sponge when it's wet?
Well, I'm afraid of you, jen.
I'm afraid of what you'll sayto me, or you won't say to me,
or how it'll react, or what I'llhave to deal with.
Or, oh God, can it just go away?
(05:21):
And unfortunately, my friends,it never goes away.
It stores like nuts for thewinter.
So one of the reasons I wrotethis simple, easy little book is
how do you wipe it up when it'swet?
And now let's say you don't.
Okay, there's plenty ofadvanced stuff in there too, but
there's a lot of the basicstuff of how do I wipe it up
(05:41):
when it's wet so it doesn'tbecome ugly and doesn't become
nasty.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's right.
I love that analogy it wasmaking me think of.
You know, if it's sitting therelonger and longer and, like you
said, it can mold, it can stainwhatever surface it's laying on
, and so that's stained rightthere.
In some instances it'spermanent, and that's really
(06:07):
tragic.
If we let something sit for solong, it seems like there's no
going back.
It gets to a point where maybethere's nothing that we can do
to resolve that conflict.
So I'd like to talk about thattype of conflict, maybe a little
later on, but something thatyou said that piqued my interest
is, you know, let's wipe it upwith a sponge, a wet sponge, now
(06:30):
, before it gets to that point.
So many people, though, arereally hesitant to have a
conversation about something,even if it's just the slightest
little thing.
What is it that you've learnedabout people that?
Why are we not willing to bringsomething up to somebody else?
(06:51):
What's going on there?
That that is so difficult forus to even get started in this?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Fear, fear.
And the fear is not foolish.
The fear is well placed becauseyou know, we're all adults, we
were all children and youexperimented with things and you
got whacked down hard or yougot rejected, or you got
betrayed or you got abandoned.
No one escapes this lifeunscathed, nobody.
So we all have had thoseexperiences, and by the time
(07:20):
we're in adulthood, we figuredout all right, this is my MO,
right, this is how my modusoperandi, this is how I'm going
to operate, this is safe, thisworks.
You want me to try something new?
What are you crazy?
Why would I do that?
This works, and so the questionI have for our listeners is
does it really work, or does itonly work in a quarter of the
(07:43):
time, or less than half the time?
And what does it cost you?
So, again, another analogy is asif we are cavemen and cavewomen
and we're just shoving food inour mouths.
Well, here's a fork, here's aspoon, here's a knife, here's
chopsticks what's going to workbest for you?
And you want to make somethingeasy?
Because I don't.
Again, I am not kumbaya.
(08:04):
I mean, my work is real.
You have to get and deal withreal stuff all day, every day,
and when it's real, there's alot of fear, and the fear can
also inhibit your skill setdevelopment to try to do
something.
And so if people want magicbeans, a magic thing you could
do right now, it's curiosity.
(08:25):
That is the number one thingyou can do.
And yet that's really hard,because if you say something
that is so stupid or so selfishor so power grabby or so fill in
the blank, it's very hard forme to go.
Well, I'm just going to becurious now about you, because
your amygdala, which is the fearand negativity center of the
(08:46):
brain, gets triggered.
And that's one of the reasons Icalled the book Holding the
Calm is because that's themantra I use for myself.
I've an amygdala, I just have avery, very long wick because
I've had 35 years in thetrenches of human conflict to
actually practice what works.
I'm sort of like a doctor ofhumanity.
(09:07):
But I can get hangry, I can gettired, I can get.
You know, I'm a normal personlike everybody else and I give
myself grace.
And so the trick is I say tomyself I'm holding the calm, I'm
holding the calm, I'm holdingthe calm.
That took two seconds, and soour listeners are probably
(09:28):
saying well, what's thedifference between saying take a
deep breath or calm down.
And if there's one takeaway forthis talk, for everybody
listening to me, eliminate thosewords from your vocabulary.
Eliminate them.
Never, ever, ever, ever tellsomebody to calm down or take a
deep breath.
And the reason why is if aperson's amygdala is triggered,
(09:49):
anytime you're upset, annoyed,bothered, frightened, scared
your amygdala is triggered Everysingle time the amygdala feels
powerless.
So what does a person do whenthey feel powerless?
They grab power.
Anyway, they can, eveninappropriately, even wrongly,
even selfishly or unfairly.
That's what they will do.
(10:11):
And when you say to somebodywhoa, you are out of control,
take a deep breath, calm downAll you're doing is exacerbating
that sense of powerlessness.
So the first thing you do isyou get power.
So if I'm feeling powerless,I'm going to give myself power.
I'm holding the calm, I'mholding the calm, I'm holding
the calm.
In that two seconds it says tomy amygdala oh, girlfriend, you
(10:37):
have tools, you've got sometricks up your sleeve.
How do you want to handle this?
That calms me down 75%.
Now I can think, now I candecide what I want to do.
It also works if I do that forsomebody else.
So you and I've had this talk,so we're friends.
Something happens.
I can say, jen, you want me tohold the calm with you.
(10:57):
You can either go no, I got itor you're going to go, yes,
please, god.
Okay, let's say you have noidea what holding the calm is,
so you can't really say that tosomebody.
What I may look to you and sayyou seem very frustrated.
How can I help?
That's holding the calm forsomebody.
You seem really angry.
Is there something I can do tohelp?
(11:19):
What can I do to ease yourburden?
How can I stop making this hurtso much?
Imagine you're firing somebodyand the person's really upset
and you say how can I make thishurt?
Not so much, for God's sakes.
What does that do to the poison?
It just drains out so much ofour pain, our misery, our
(11:43):
anguish.
That leads to tension andconflict and aggression comes
from pain and comes from fear,and so you can't spend 20 years
on a shrink's couch to try tofigure all this stuff out.
So that's why I wrote thissimple, cheap, $15 little
paperback to say here here'ssome good things you could do
(12:04):
right now to take control, totake power.
It's really magic, jen.
It's just really magic.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I love the fact that you're leaning into just take a
couple of seconds and with justthat one phrase and, like you
said, repeating it over just acouple of seconds, it really
does give you that opportunitythat you need to think about.
Like you said, what do I wantto have happen here?
(12:33):
Because we have choices righthow we interact with someone in
that moment in time, that'sgonna have an impact, that's
gonna influence how they respondto us.
In turn and I face this all thetime as a media analyst we're
in a situation it's kind of aweird situation we meet over
Zoom and we always have avariety of different political
(12:59):
viewpoints and we read the newsand we have to talk about it,
and most of the time, we allview the news pretty similarly.
But, as everybody can imagine,we're gonna get to those few
articles that we really need tohave a conversation, because
either the bias is so apparentor the reliability is so low and
(13:24):
we don't know where our ownblind spots are.
So it's really important to beable to have those conversations
.
But, like you said, even thoughwe've been doing this for a long
time, I remember one time I wasworking with another analyst
and we started going down therails a little bit and I
remember the analyst said to mebecause I said, well, let's make
(13:47):
sure that we're staying focusedon we're not here to advocate
right a position, we're here tojust look at the text and let's
see what the text is telling usand then decide whether or not
the text itself is biased,reliable.
And she said to me I don't needa lecture, just like that.
And I did exactly what you saidto do.
(14:08):
I had to kind of back away fora moment.
Now I didn't have the languagethat you were saying right there
, that phrase, but I was doingsomething very similar.
And then that gave me just thebrief moment I needed to just
kind of back away and then backin to think about how do I want
to address this in this momentin time, because it could have
(14:29):
easily gone in the wrongdirection.
And that's such a criticalmoment in time right there to
take that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Isn't it?
Would you like a quick thingthat you can do in that
circumstance to totally turnthat around?
Yes, yes.
So what happens is people takepositions based on their
identity.
So let's say you bringinformation that shows they're
wrong, 98% of people don't go.
Oh well, gosh, darn it, I'mwrong.
(14:58):
Oh well, I guess I'll justrevamp what I'm thinking.
They don't do that.
They push and punch harder.
So when you get something likewhy didn't need a lecture, I
mean, you struck home, but itwasn't persuasive.
So in that instance what thatperson needs because they're
feeling powerless, they'refeeling judged, they're feeling
stupid, they're feeling wrongedor criticized is the answer is
(15:23):
they need validation.
And then in my book I have aton of sentence stems that you
have.
They are your friend.
So what you can say in thatsituation is you know what I
admire about you?
No one says another word.
They are wrapped with attention.
(15:44):
What are you gonna say next?
Right, this works at theThanksgiving table with your
idiot uncle.
It works with your difficultsister-in-law.
This works with the coach onyour kid's team, or the neighbor
, or your boss or your coworkeror a client.
It works with everybody.
So when something gets hot andyou can feel it starting to get
(16:04):
hot, you immediately stop it andyou choose your verb what I
admire about you, what I respectabout you, what I enjoy about
you, what I like about you, whatI love about you, and then you
say something authentic andlet's say it's a hard person,
it's really hard for you tovalidate them.
You know, what you can say, yourdedication, your persistence,
(16:27):
your commitment, your clarity,your decision-making, your
effort.
You can say any of those words.
So if you pick a couple of themand those are kind of your
go-tos, so they're just in yourmind, put it at a post-it note
on your phone.
Put it in your phone as apost-it note so when the
situation happens and it's hot,like you said something and she
(16:52):
kind of punched at you, youeasily could have if you were
emotionally immature or tired orcranky, or you could have
punched back.
Instead you took a step back.
Instead you took a step back.
Beautiful.
And then the next, leaning inpiece, is this validation, and
while I just described it,that's how you validate people
(17:13):
that you don't agree with at all.
Yeah, you won't like at all.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, it takes a thousand people to build a
building and just one malcontentwith a stick of dynamite to
ruin it all.
Knowing how to reduce conflictand diffuse tension is key to a
happy life and, even though ittends to be difficult for most
of us, there are some simpletricks and tools that we can
learn that will really improveour life.
Today, pesha Abrams, aworld-renowned mediator,
(17:45):
negotiator and author with over30 years as an expert in
resolving conflict, implementsinnovative approaches and
thought-provoking solutions thatobtain favorable outcomes for
even the most complex matters.
Pesha's popular new bookHolding the Calm shares her
secrets of how to read asituation to resolve tension,
(18:06):
eliminate conflict and restoreharmony.
Get a copy of the book today,available on Amazon.
Click on the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And let me give our listeners one more advanced tip,
because I like to do theseadvanced and not just the basic
like brush your teeth, yeah,yeah, yeah, I know what you're
talking about.
I know what you communicatenicely with people, okay, okay.
Okay Is, let's say, I have todeal with someone that I despise
.
I mean, I despise or I'mfrightened of, or, and I have to
(18:41):
deal with them.
It's a client, it's a boss,it's a teacher, it's.
I can't run away, I'm stuckdealing with them.
As long as I look through thefilter of how terrible you are,
it's gonna be very hard for meto do it.
So I'm gonna look at you andI'm gonna ask myself one
question Would you pull my kidout of a burning car?
(19:02):
95% of the time, the answer tothat will be yes, okay.
Now I look at you as the personwho pulled my kid out of a
burning car and if it only givesyou a 2% aperture, a 2% opening
, fine.
Maybe it gives you a 20%opening, fine.
That's the place you go intoand then do this validation
(19:23):
stuff.
You will see people literallymelt in your hands and no one's
gonna say, oh my goodness, jen,you're very good at this,
holding the calm stuff.
They're just gonna say wow, youcan just handle anything.
Yeah, you can get along withanyone.
Wow, you can just handleproblems.
Wow, you just get things done.
(19:44):
That's what they're gonna say.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, yeah.
What if you are in a situationwhere there is someone and it
could be a friend, a familymember, a co-worker, whoever and
you've known this person for avery long time and you just feel
, man, they require so much workall the time?
I'm always validating themalways.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And those who have listened to me for a very long
time, they know what I'm aboutto say.
Next, empathy does not comeeasy for me.
I'm just one of those peoplethat I like to just say let's
just get to the bottom of theproblem.
Okay, let's just don't worryabout the emotions, let's just
solve the problem and then wecan all move on from it.
So you know like.
(20:37):
So don't get your feelings hurt, damn it.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
It can be exhausting, because how's that been working
out for you?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know, I have learned over the years and this
is the funny thing about that Ihad someone tell me recently
they're like Jen, you know.
That's just not true.
You are one of the mostempathetic people that I've ever
known, and I just I had tolaugh.
I said you know, what hashappened is I've learned that
there's a difference betweenempathic listening and then
(21:10):
listening to solve the problemright, that critical listening.
And I've learned to just stayquiet long enough to observe and
be able to tell okay, or evenask the person.
Are you here to vent?
In that case, I got you, I willshut up and you can vent away.
Or is this something thatyou're actually looking to?
(21:31):
Have some assistance here?
And that has solved a lot of myproblems, but because I've
learned to do that, I fooledeveryone to think that I have
empathy.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
That was beautifully done, jen, exactly correct.
And you know what I tell peopleis for God's sakes, give
yourself some grace.
You know human beings are weird, they're difficult, they're
challenging.
They're also beautiful andmagnificent and enriching.
It's all of it.
It's just all of it.
And so you've got to giveyourself some grace that
(22:05):
sometimes you know your time isyour wealth.
Your time and your energy isyour wealth.
It's like these old women thatsay, ah, at least you got your
health.
You know, it really is true,your time.
I mean, all you have to say islet somebody get a cancer
diagnosis.
And all of the time resourcesare used very differently.
(22:25):
You know, and God knows, youdon't know what's going to
happen tomorrow.
You know, I always think ofthat poor guy reading his
newspaper and his lazy boy in aplane falls out of the sky and
it's his life.
You just don't know whattomorrow will bring.
And so if someone is too muchfor you, you are allowed to say
I wish I could help you rightnow, but I've got another call
(22:48):
or the meeting I've got to go to.
But you know what?
I believe in you and I believethat you can handle this.
See that little validationpiece and then escape.
You have no obligation to bepeople's emotional garbage can.
That is not the same as beingempathetic.
So each one of us has to playthat balancing game every day
(23:10):
with every person in everysituation, until you kind of get
good with.
This is where I'm going to giveand this is where I'm not.
I wish I'd given a little morethere, or I wish I'd given a
little less there.
Okay, that's called grace.
I'm a big believer.
You know, I'm going to be 65years old this year and I go.
I finally my sixth decade oflife.
I feel like I finally learned afew things.
(23:33):
That's one of the big ones isyour energy is finite and spew
it around and not have it.
Plant seeds Not a good use ofresources.
And you are allowed I giveeverybody permission, you know
to to marshal and protect yourresources and then to use them
(23:54):
wisely, obi-wan.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess they probably need to be
prepared, even if they do it asnicely as possible.
Or, you know, with all thevalidation in the world,
sometimes you might run acrosssomeone who's still isn't going
to appreciate the fact thatyou've said now.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
There you go and your boundaries are your boundaries.
There you go.
But just because you know, youremotional immaturity does not
become my problem unless I allowit to become my problem.
And one of the beautiful thingsabout again why I call the book
holding the calm is it createsa moat around your feelings and
(24:32):
how you choose to react to thethings.
So let me see my hands.
I'm like pushing out, becauseso many of us we feel something
Boom, boom.
It's right there, andnanosecond in between feeling
and reacting.
The more you can create space, amoat around what you feel and
how you choose to act, thehappier, the calmer, the more
(24:55):
successful, the more efficient,the more you're going to be.
That's just the reality of it,and I'm human too.
Every once in a while somethingwill happen and I go God, okay,
back to my moat.
And that's why I again, I keepusing the.
I say it to myself I'm holdingthe calm.
I'm holding the calm because itworks.
(25:15):
Like your grandmother wouldgive you a rubber band and tell
you to snap your wrist, you knowthat's right.
I don't want to hurt myself.
You know that hurts when yousnap yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I'm already suffering enough, all right.
Why do I want to exacerbatethis?
So true?
Oh, I mean such valuable advicehere.
So, as a mediator, are youworking more with individuals,
one-on-one, or are you goinginto organizations and you're
(25:49):
helping organizations figure out, you know, how to manage their
conflict more effectively?
How are you going out there andspreading?
Speaker 1 (25:59):
the good word.
Thank you.
I mean I've been doing this along time so I have done every
possible kind of case.
Now I tend to do very large,very complex, very difficult
cases, usually between companiesor inventors, that kind of
stuff, where it's usually verycomplicated and very involved.
Because it's more complicated,it's more fun to me.
(26:20):
You know being figured out.
But I'll tell you, the big CEOof a huge Fortune 100 company is
the same guy or gal as somebodywho the neighbor drove over
your roses and your pistols Imean exactly the same and has
the same late at night.
You know what they're talkingto me about?
Ugh, they're kids.
The cross coach is such anidiot and won't give the kid
(26:43):
playtime and what can they do soit?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
seems like such a normal conversation to have and
a lot of people, I guess, don'tview CEOs of Fortune 100
companies in that light Exactlythe same, or their ex-wife, you
know, or it's just human beingsand bumper car emotions.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And you know, look at our world now.
We've got people, you know,with guns shooting the place up.
So you get, okay, no guns, andthen you get people saying wait,
wait, wait, don't take away myguns.
There's no discussion in thatGulf.
The real Gulf is how do we keeppeople safer and how do we off
gas, anger and diffusing oftension?
Because we have a lot of it inour society and it's very hard
(27:24):
because everyone is labeled inour society you are part of this
club or you're part of thatclub, and the clubs actually
have flags, they've got colors,they've got secret words, and so
it doesn't really matter evenwhat the content is.
It's well, I have to believethis, I'm part of that club and
nobody thinks that way, but noone wants to be ex-communicated
(27:47):
from the club and so you join inwith whatever that belief
system is, and so talking topeople about content is just
like a waste of time.
You know, I have a chapter inthe book that I call creating
small winnable victories,because if you tackle I mean,
just think of abortion it's ababy killer right to my body.
(28:09):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Where is there?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
There's no in between , and so creating small,
winnable victories with a groupof people is.
You know, chapter one of thebook is speaking to the ears
that are hearing you.
So, just as an example to ourlisteners, if you're talking to
an introvert, would you speakthe same way to an extrovert?
We all kind of say, oh no, ofcourse I wouldn't.
(28:35):
But yet we do.
We talk our way, we do ourthing.
There's a famous behavioralistnamed Maslow who said that if
all you have is a hammer, allyou will see are nails.
And so it's a big thing to beable to say OK, I'm an extrovert
, I'm an introvert, this is howI talk.
So in order for me to talk toyou, I have to take three
(28:56):
seconds to actually look at you.
I was like a bomb detector inthe town square.
He waddles out in his Michelinsuit.
He doesn't just start cuttingjunk, he looks, he diagnoses
what is the situation.
It's the same thing when you'rein any kind of a difficult
conversation, tense conversationor one that has the potential
(29:17):
to be that way.
Take a minute to speak into theears that are hearing you.
If you're a vegetarian, I'm notgoing to talk to you about
steak.
If you're a big steak eater,I'm not going to talk to you
about plants and I'm doing thebasic stuff.
But this is not hard.
People can just master thisdramatic, dramatic, dramatic
(29:41):
improvement.
And then you're fine tuningmore and more and more and more
and more and more advanced stuff, but even the basic stuff.
Remember fork knife chopsticks.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you, since you have been in this field for 30
plus years now, have youwitnessed it in society or, I
guess, even in between justindividuals, those who are
within our society?
Has there been a decline inindividuals ability to engage in
(30:22):
civil discussion?
It just I don't know.
We have conversations all thetime in the groups that I'm in
and we love to lament aboutcommunication.
Today, you know, and as the youknow, no longer we can't even
talk to anybody here.
What have you observed, youknow, over the past, since you
(30:43):
have actually been activelyengaged in this field of
conflict resolution andmanagement?
Are we seeing it correctly?
I mean, has it gotten worse orare we just more aware of it now
than we used to be?
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So I'm gonna say something a little controversial
, because it's a long time.
I don't think it's any worse.
I think people never reallyhave the ability to talk to each
other because we don't teachthis in schools talk like your
mom and daddy talked or yourgrandma, and that's what you get
.
What we are getting now, though,is less civility, that we still
(31:22):
can't talk to each other, socan't listen to another
perspective, another point ofview, but what we've lost is the
ability to well, we can agreeto disagree.
Yeah, that's okay, or, you know, jen, I just think you're wrong
Versus Jen, I'm gonna punch youin the face because you're
wrong.
It's the intensity that hashappened, and neuroscientists
(31:45):
call this a standardization ofdeviance.
Just to give a quick example,my husband's an airline pilot
and was a Czech Airman withAmerican Airlines, and he told
me that, a few decades ago,airplanes would get damaged all
the time the luggage carts,beverage carts, you know.
Some guy went and paid attentionand they whack the plane.
Well, you can't take off then,and all the people have to
(32:07):
deplane.
You gotta fix it.
It's a big deal.
So they did a rule and theysaid 10 feet away.
Everyone has to stay 10 feetaway from a plane.
People don't know what 10 feetis, so, finally, they took a
paint, sort of like you do adead body on the sidewalk in the
history.
They did the shape of the plane10 feet away from the plane,
(32:28):
and guess what?
All the accidents dropped downto almost zero.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
But then what happened after a couple of years
?
Joe was used to parking hiscart right on the edge of the
yellow line.
He's a little lazy today anddoesn't want to have to carry
the stuff as far, so he goes ina foot.
Well, steve sees him do it.
It's not a big deal, the linedoesn't really matter that much,
right?
And he goes in a foot andbefore you know it, that's
(32:54):
called the standardization ofdeviance.
When the boundary is notrespected, when the line is not
enforced, boom, boom, boom, theline meant nothing anymore and
they started to wind up with theplanes again.
So in countries that they don'tgive out traffic tickets for
people running red lights,you've got horrible fatalities.
Our country, well, no one likesgetting a ticket or getting
(33:16):
stopped by a police officer, buthe or she's honestly saving
your life by doing that becausethey're enforcing the lines.
That's kind of what's happenedin our country, with lack of
civil discourse between socialmedia, the talking heads
screaming and yelling at eachother.
You know the newspaper sayingif it bleeds, it leads.
(33:37):
So we no longer can have niceconversations and be satisfied
with it.
Now there has to be intensityand drama and that, and that is
really so.
My big thing to people is let'sjust tone it down.
We can still completelydisagree and think about things
(33:57):
differently, but let's tone itdown and go get a coffee
together, right, and the more wecan do that as individuals.
In my little sphere ofinfluence, I'm doing this.
In your little sphere ofinfluence, you're doing that.
I would ask everyone to listenhere.
Take a moment now and thinkwhat is your sphere of influence
(34:17):
?
And in that, whatever sphere ofinfluence you've got, you just
say I'm taking a stand forcivility.
That's what I'm doing.
I'm not gonna label, I'm gonnasay we agree to disagree on that
, but I still like you as aperson.
It was amazing what will happen.
People will talk to you more,they will listen to you more,
(34:39):
more will get done and you'llget less agitated and aggravated
, which you know let's talkabout.
Having a happy and good liferequires not getting agitated
all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah, I can't agree with you more.
One of the things that I reallyappreciate about that is
sometimes we are gonna have toagree to disagree.
I mean, at the end of the day,the reality is, if I have this
belief system and you have thatbelief system, the likelihood of
us convincing the other one tocompletely agree with us is, I
(35:15):
mean, it's not very high thatthat's gonna happen, and I have
been.
I find it personallyfrustrating, you know,
especially social media.
I have to limit the amount ofI'm exposing myself to social
media because the number ofpeople who don't agree with that
(35:35):
, you know, the whole agree todisagree thing is not something
that they think is legitimate,you know.
No, you have to agree with meon this and I'm going to beat
you down, you know.
And until you acquiesce towhatever it is that you know, I
believe and that is socompletely exhausting and it's
(35:56):
like you're beating your head upagainst a brick wall, like why
are you doing that to yourself?
Why are you doing it to theother person, but why are you
doing that to yourself to begin?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
with.
Try the validation.
Sentence them in thosesituations, cause even if you
can't convince them or stop it,you'll feel better about
yourself.
What will happen is your sphereof influence will increase a
little bit.
Yeah, other people will noticeand they'll say you handle that
really well.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
That was.
You know what I admire aboutyou your dedication.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
You know what I respect about you, your
commitment, your commitment.
You know it's not hard to doand it stops people in their
tracks, cause very often whenpeople are spouting off, what
they're really saying is I'm avery insecure little person and
I need to feel important or Ineed to feel valued and listen
(36:49):
to me.
Right, okay, okay, and you'llsee people.
When you do that, often they'llwalk back the position.
Wow, that's not the way I meantit.
I don't think it's not that much.
Yeah, oh, okay, okay, you know,I mean it's.
People think about wars.
(37:10):
Wars are really actually over.
People want to keep fightingand keep fighting and keep
fighting.
So rare for someone to go andthey go to court.
They keep doing appeals andappeals and appeals.
It's not like, okay, you lost,so are you there like you're
done, win or lose.
I mean, our justice system isdesigned for at some point the
(37:31):
files got to be closed.
That's right, it's done.
And yet, you know, we just keepthe fight going because of the
identity of the person and so.
That's one of the things I liketo talk about in the book.
Have lots of stories in thebook and they're all
battle-tested, and what I tellpeople is I can give you words.
You won't remember a doggonething.
(37:53):
I said I give you storiesallergies.
You'll walk away, go, you knowwhat.
How does that apply to my life?
And what did that do you know?
Like?
I just thought of one that'snot in the book.
Should I tell you now and helpour help, our listeners have a
little bonus?
Oh, absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
If you've read my book cracking the rich code, you
know it is chock full offantastic advice from top
thought leaders and supersuccessful entrepreneurs from
around the world.
How would you like to be amember of an exclusive community
that provides that same how-tocontent from those same leaders?
What if you were able to attendmember only live events and
(38:41):
interact with them?
I'd like to invite you to jointhe rich code club.
It will change the way youthink about yourself, your money
and your life.
It's the only social mediaplatform Purely focused on
helping you grow.
Join the rich code club todayfor free by clicking on the link
in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I Heard this on NPR hidden brain and was after the
book was, but I just thought howbrilliant it brings this point
home.
So there's a company that wouldsell 20 and 30 thousand dollar
couches.
They were bespoke, customized.
(39:23):
You could make them any lengthyou wanted to pick the piping
and the fabric and the this andthe that I'm do-do-do and fancy,
fancy, fancy, right, and youwould design all this stuff
online.
People would get All the way tothe point of sale and a huge
percentage would not completethe sale.
The company was from ox,because these are people,
clearly, that could afford itand had invested time and energy
(39:45):
in designing it.
Why are they completing the dogon sale?
So what do people do?
You have a car.
You either have gas or you havea break.
95% of us put on the gas.
I'm gonna talk more, I'm gonnapersuade more, I'm gonna do more
, I'm gonna convince more, I'mgonna give more.
So here, more sales, morepromotion, more advertising.
(40:07):
Pasha didn't change a dog onthing.
So finally, that that put thebrakes on and they hired
somebody to contact all thepeople at the point of sale who
didn't complete the sale andchat and be nice and lovely with
them and then say do you mindif I ask why you didn't complete
the sale?
The number one, overwhelmingreason why people that could
(40:29):
afford a twenty thousand dollarcouch didn't complete the sale,
but a boom, betta, bang.
They didn't know what to dowith the old couch.
Isn't that ridiculous?
Well, obviously, the solutionis so easy now We'll take away
your old one, give you a timewhen we bring you the new one.
It just had never dawned onanybody, and so I Guarantee all
(40:52):
of our listeners that if youthink of a couple of people that
you're in some conflict withnow or that you just don't want
to deal with, there is a barrierthere that you have not
discovered.
And if you go into it trying touncover the barrier in instead
of trying to persuade orconvince, the problem just kind
(41:13):
of goes away.
Or they agree, or sometimesthey think it was their idea and
they agreed, and you still getwhat you Want anyway.
Who cares?
You know you decide on thedefinition of a win for you when
you go into it.
But I love that story.
You know a book, I've got tonsof stories, and so if you're
(41:33):
flamocs, if you're at a pointwhere Gen we're, I can't even
talk to you.
We see the world so differentlyand you're not willing to
listen to anything.
I'm not sure what to say to you.
Stop talking, give them a story.
Yeah, just say you know whatthat reminds me of a story.
Or I read us.
I read this in Holding the Calm,this cool book, and what I tell
(41:55):
people is take my stories.
They are.
Everyone I put in there isdesigned to be told in less than
a minute and it's been battletested by me and real live
Conflict situations, and it hadto work at least 10 or 15 times
before I put it in the book.
So every single one of themworks.
Take my stories they have beenresearched, you know, because
(42:16):
you're more likely to go tell mea story.
First of all, you get a breakfrom me haranguing you and
Telling basically how wrong youare and how right I am.
Yeah, now we, we are togetherListening to a story and then
you take away from it Whateveryou choose to take away from it.
It's a terrific technique and Ihave used it with, you know,
(42:37):
truck drivers to CEOs andeverything in between, because
it's the.
It's a human experience.
We talk about all thisdiversity, equity, inclusion,
stuff, which, yeah, yeah, yeah,I know we need to do it.
It's all important.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I want to go below that.
I don't want to talk to someoneas a black woman or a white man
(42:57):
or a Hispanic female like what.
That's your outside.
I'm interested in your inside.
Are you an introvert, anextrovert Do you?
Are you a thinking personversus a feeling person?
Are you a big picture person?
Are you a detail person?
Are you a rebel renegade whodoesn't follow rules, or are you
a person that only followsrules?
Mm-hmm, that's like easy stuff.
(43:19):
People will self reveal that toyou so easy in the first 10
minutes of talking.
Okay, so if I'm dealing withthe rebel rouser, I'm not gonna
talk about these are the rules,and if I'm talking with a rule
follower, I'm not gonna go throwthe rulebook away.
Go with your gut, right?
It's not hard Once you trainyour brain to think like that.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, yeah.
It's so interesting that yousaid that I was telling a friend
the other day that I was gonnahave you on the show and we were
gonna talk about conflictmanagement.
And, of course, whenever youtalk to anybody about, oh, I'm
gonna talk to so-and-so aboutconflict management, I always
get really excited because theyalready have something in mind.
You know that that they'rereally interested in in
(44:02):
connection to this topic, andone of the things that I like to
talk about when I work withgroups on communication skills
is it's something very similar Italk about how to identify
different communication stylesso that you can adapt to others
communication style rather thantrying to force them to be like
(44:23):
you.
Figure their style out so thatyou can adapt to them.
And it's gonna take you a lotfarther, you know, in the, in
the conversations that you havewith them and you know I will be
asked the question all the timeWell, what about the
differences between men andwomen?
And they communicate, and Onething that, one thing that I
(44:44):
have found in focusing on thecommunication style is it takes
that away.
Yeah, you know, and really, inthat sense, there really are no
differences in how men and womencommunicate.
When you're talking about theactual Communication style
itself if you're just focusingon that rather than focusing on,
(45:06):
you know, if there are man orif there are woman.
Yeah, um it.
What do you?
What do you say to that in inthe conflict management Arena?
Do you view that similarly ordo you have a different take on
that?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
No, I agree with you totally and I laugh out loud,
because when someone says how doyou deal, how do you talk to
men or how do you negotiate withmen, what you're really saying
to me is your skill set is verylimited in that area, because
you look at all women or all menis this giant amorphous mass.
It's almost like saying how doI talk to Asians?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah right, if you were to say that out loud, there
would be the get the audiblegas.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yes, but let's make it like even real.
You know well how do I talk toblack people Ridiculous, it
sounds, ridiculous, it is, it is.
So what I tell people iseverything you just said.
You just you go, bullet you.
I told me chapter one of thebooks speak into the ears that
are hearing you.
It requires me to look at you,to listen to you, to see who you
(46:11):
are as a person.
And you know, the ancillarybenefit of that is you feel like
I care, give a darn meter isn'tbroken.
So when someone feels likethey're give a darn meter isn't
broken, I'm more likely to wantto engage with you.
Mm-hmm, I talked to you becauseyou seem to kind of care about
(46:33):
me as a person.
And you know, think about it.
Most people in relationshipsthat don't work for them.
They wear clothes that areuncomfortable, they live in
places they don't like, or withpeople they don't like, they
have jobs they don't like.
That's the vast, vast majorityof people.
So in a moment of time again, Italked about the sphere of
(46:55):
influence.
This is sort of like a vortexof energy.
You are in that place with thatperson one.
You're safe, you're validating,you're listening, you're
curious, you're engaged.
It's like I have a chapter inthe book I call giving a dozen
roses, and that's what we'retalking about here.
It's like you gave somebody adozen roses and what did it take
(47:17):
me to do?
You didn't know my time, justbecause I had to think like that
.
And so you know what peoplewant, and people will ask the
same question to me too.
You know they want a magic pill.
How do you give me, give me thesentence to use to talk to all
women?
There you go.
I'm gonna say, well, it's notthat one.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
That's right.
As a matter of fact, there arenone of these.
Out of all these options, zeroof them are gonna work people
want that, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And I want to say look, I want chocolate cake to
not be fattening, right, andbrussels clouds To be to be in,
it's like, it's just what it is.
So the question again that'swhy I use the fork, spoon,
chopsticks thing.
I mean you can eat with a forklike this, stabbing it?
I mean you can, it works.
I'd rather hold the forkproperly.
Okay, but that's your level ofchoice.
(48:07):
So if you want to be the kindof person who takes food and
shoves it in your mouth, now godbless, go right ahead.
If you want to stab it withyour fork, if you want to eat
soup with your fork, okay,that's your choice.
Or here's reading glasses.
You're not seeing so well.
Can I put a pair of readingglasses on your eyes so you get
to go?
Oh, that's better and that'swhat I tell people.
(48:32):
You don't limit yourself intohow do I talk to this person?
You learn how to be a bombdetector or a doctor, and I look
at you.
And I've got one more analogy,just because that's what people
will remember when they listento us Uh, your tummy hurts, you
go into the ER and you go bleh.
Right, most of us go gross.
(48:52):
I don't want to look at that,not the ER doc.
She looks at it.
Smell like it should smell.
Are there pills in there?
Is there metal?
Is there undigested food?
It's a diagnostic for her.
So, people have emotional bleh.
That's just vomit, that's allit is.
And so, if you can look at itas a diagnostic tool, people are
(49:15):
really not that complicated,they really aren't.
They will self reveal veryquickly and very clearly and
then you can go oh okay, Ididn't realize that so much,
really angry.
I tell you that person who'sreally angry has fear underneath
.
Now, maybe you can get to it,maybe you can't.
(49:36):
Your job is not to be a shrink,but my job is to not let that
blow me out of the water, right.
So I look at you, my boss, oh,going at me like this, and I
look at you as just a scaredlittle boy in his underwear
takes away a lot of the power.
Right Now I can make choicesand then say, instead of saying,
(50:00):
what are you afraid of, whichis really accusatory, well,
what's the biggest concern toyou?
Think of the couch story.
What's the barrier in your wayof wanting to try that?
And then people will end uptelling you things that you
didn't know, and then you'll getto go oh yeah, makes sense to
me.
Oh yeah, maybe there's not asolution to that, or, you know,
(50:23):
I do have an idea that might bea solution to that.
Now look what's also happenedfrom a neuroscience point of
view.
You and I have created a subtlelittle team, building the
chapter in the book where I talkabout the benefit of plural
pronouns, and we, instead of Ior you yes, you can do this, we
(50:43):
will look into this.
It literally, psychologicallyjust works with people and this
stuff is just magic and when youcan play with it.
That's why I insisted with mypublisher It'd be a simple
paperback.
I wanted an inexpensive.
I put a discussion guide in theback so that 15 people in an
(51:05):
organization want to buy it andthen have lunch and go over the
discussion questions in the back.
That can get continuingeducation credit or training
credit or whatever they do.
And then you don't need to hiresome big fancy trainer to come
in and do it for you.
You can discuss it withyourselves, because what will
happen is we're talking and, jen, you'll say, well, I thought
that story was stupid.
(51:25):
Really, I found it veryimpactful.
And then you're going to say,really, tell me more.
Now that's how real traininghappens.
It doesn't happen because Istand on a podium and do
entertainment, which is stillvaluable in its own right, of
course, but the real trainingisn't that small group stuff
(51:45):
with people saying, really, whywould you think like that?
Huh, isn't that interesting?
And the questions track thebook.
So it's simple, it's easy,because I want people to get
better at this in their homelives, with their kids, with
their bosses at work, with theirneighbors.
(52:07):
So that standardization, adeviance thing I was talking
about we can take the civilityand pop it out another foot or
two, yeah, and then that's thestandard by which we talk.
We talk hateful talk.
We don't talk accusatory talk.
We can say, let's say,someone's spouting hard at me.
I can say, ok, I hear you and Ihear how strongly and how
(52:30):
passionately you believe that.
Do you think I might have adifferent opinion?
Yeah, that stops people intheir tracks.
Huh, what?
Well, no reasonable personcould.
Do you think I'm a reasonableperson?
Now, all of a sudden, they stopand they listen.
Oh, this is 80% of the time Idon't worry about the 10% or 20%
(52:53):
crazy, because that's beyondthe scope of what we can do here
.
That requires realprofessionals and I do that in
my real professional world.
But any of the time this isgoing to work, I'm going to call
that good.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That's right.
Yeah, leading with questionsthat's what I'm hearing over and
over again the leading withquestions, and that really does
open up a whole world for thatconversation to be able to take
place.
I just really love that.
That is absolutely wonderful.
I'm telling you, listeners, Itold you keep your notebook out.
(53:30):
You're going to learn so muchin this conversation.
I have learned so much in thisconversation.
I've really enjoyed this.
This has been absolutelywonderful.
I can't believe we've alreadybeen speaking for over 50
minutes, so we're coming up onthe hour here really quick.
But before we wrap things up, Iwanted to ask you is there
(53:50):
anything that you didn't have anopportunity to touch on out of
the conversation that we've hadthus far that you'd really like
the listeners to be able to hear?
Speaker 1 (54:02):
You asked so many good questions.
I feel like we talked about alot of things, so it was really
good.
What I would tell people is Ihave a web page holding
thecomcom and I don't sell theemail list to anybody, so you
can sign up and then I come upwith cool stuff all the time.
And as I'm coming up with coolstuff, I just send out emails to
my folks because people aretrying to do this better.
(54:23):
And if you want to connect withme on LinkedIn, hesha Abrams, I
post all the time and I dolittle one minute videos, and
the benefit of the one minutevideos is you can email it to
somebody, I mean, let's say, tosomebody who's difficult and
you're having a challenge with.
Instead of saying, my god,you're difficult, you can say,
oh, I just saw this one minutevideo on this topic, I thought
(54:45):
it was interesting, and then youforward it on over to them.
So there's a lot of subtle waysto be able to do that.
So, linkedin, I've got aFacebook page and on my Holding,
the Com site, because I'mreally and I would ask our
listeners as a favor to me, ifyou do buy the book I mean, you
can get it anywhere Barnes andNoble Books of Million Walmart.
(55:07):
But Amazon, of course, is thebig dog in that fight to leave a
good review, because that helpsthe search algorithm, because
the more people we can get to bereading this and talking about
it, maybe we can actually takeback our society and create more
civility.
And at least you, dear listener, within your sphere of
(55:27):
influence and Jen does it withinher sphere of influence and I
do it within mine we're likelittle cells of a body getting
healthier and healthier, andhealthier, and I really do
believe that we can make animpact.
I really do.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
That's fantastic.
I will make sure that all ofthat information is in the show
notes for the listeners.
Make sure that you connect withHesha online through her social
media platforms.
Buy the book wherever you wantto get your book.
Just make sure you get the bookand, I agree, make sure that
you leave.
Just leave something on Amazonif you decide to buy it on
(56:04):
Amazon.
Let everybody know how it workedand how wonderful it was.
I know, as an author myself,greatly appreciate having those
reviews out there.
So let's do that for Hesha,because I think this is
absolutely wonderful.
And thank you so much for beingon the show and just sharing
(56:24):
with us everything that youexperienced within this realm
and giving us some tidbits,those golden nuggets of
information out of your book.
I know somebody out there islistening to this and they're
going to try, just like you said, experiment with it.
This is a skill, just like anyother skill.
We got to work at it to getgood at it.
(56:46):
So experiment with it and thenreport back to us Let us know
how it goes, because I'm reallycurious.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Love it, that's great .
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Well, everyone, have a great rest of your day and I
hope you all will just keepworking at it.
This thing we call life and theconversations we have.
It ain't easy, so we'll justkeep plugging away at it.
All right, hesha?
Thanks again, everybody, takecare.
Thanks for listening.
(57:24):
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
media or leave a rating and areview.
Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast,
where we communicate about howwe communicate.
I'm your host, jennifer Furlong.
We have a treat today.
(00:30):
I am so excited about thistopic.
Y'all don't even know one ofthe things that I love to talk
about Conflict management,conflict resolution.
You know my daytime job as amedia analyst.
I love to lean in and talkabout the tough stuff, but many
(00:50):
of us are really hesitant todive into that.
I have a very special guestwith me today.
She is a master mediator.
She's a negotiator and author.
We're going to talk about herbook, which is an amazing book.
I'm going to encourageeverybody to pick it up and she
has traveled around the worldtalking to different audiences
(01:12):
about conflict resolution.
So get your notepads out, takegood notes, because I know we
are going to learn a lot duringthis episode.
Hesha, thank you so much forbeing a guest on the show.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
My pleasure.
Thank you all for listening,Everyone taking time out of
their day.
We know there's so many demandson your time and the fact you
want to listen to this and makeyour life more harmonious and
less acrimonious go you thatsounds wonderful, right?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Who doesn't want that ?
But it's kind of hard gettingto that.
We need to be able to get tothat next step.
So I know the audience isreally excited to hear what you
have to say about thisparticular topic that we're
talking about today.
But before we get to that,would you mind sharing with us
what's your origin story?
(02:05):
Like what made you want to gointo this particular field,
because it's not usual to findsomeone who really enjoys
engaging in these types ofdifficult conversations.
So tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Indeed.
Well, I'm a lawyer and I'vebeen a lawyer for 35 years
already.
And back in the day when youwere a young woman and I had
children, you couldn't do hardlevel, intense work and be a
mother childcare it was aconstant source of difficulty.
And I was doing really highlevel trial work and I found out
(02:43):
about this thing calledmediation and I said wait a
minute.
You talk to people for a living, you solve problems, you work
out deals, and then I couldcontrol it on my own schedule.
So I was a hard litigator forabout five years.
So I have that background in meso that when I talk with
litigators I don't come at thisin a kumbaya, airy-fairy,
(03:07):
win-win problem solving.
Let's all be friendly and talkto each other, because that's
not the real world.
You know that works.
What?
10% of the time?
Okay, for those 10%, 15% even,that's great.
What about the other 85?
When it's somebody that youthink is an idiot or a
narcissist or evil or stupid orpower hungry or immature or fill
(03:32):
in the blank, that's real life.
And to me, when I can go into asituation that's so intense and
so hard and I can help peoplework out a deal and sometimes
it's a cold piece, we just get adeal done.
That's fine.
Sometimes you get every once ina great while you get rewarded
with one of those tiny littlekumbaya moments, but it's very,
(03:54):
very rare.
And that's where the reasons whyI wanted to write this book is
that I know tricks, I know toolsthat our listeners can do today
.
You don't need a master'scourse, you don't need some big
MBA and something.
What can you do today indifficult situations that defuse
the tension?
And that's why I call the bookthe Secret to Resolving Conflict
(04:17):
and Diffusing Tension, because100% of conflict, 100% of it,
starts with tension and thetension can be or it can be, it
doesn't matter.
And I have an analogy that Iwant to announce, a long answer
to a very short question, butI'll give you just one quick
(04:38):
analogy, because people thinkand remember by analogies.
So we've all dropped spaghettisauce on the counter or teriyaki
sauce or barbecue sauce.
Right, take a wet sponge andwipe it up.
It's no big deal.
You leave it overnight, you'rescraping it off of the spatula
Three or four months or three orfour years, and it is old and
(05:00):
moldy and nasty.
And that, my friends, isconflict and we all intuitively
know that.
So why don't we wipe it up witha sponge when it's wet?
Well, I'm afraid of you, jen.
I'm afraid of what you'll sayto me, or you won't say to me,
or how it'll react, or what I'llhave to deal with.
Or, oh God, can it just go away?
(05:21):
And unfortunately, my friends,it never goes away.
It stores like nuts for thewinter.
So one of the reasons I wrotethis simple, easy little book is
how do you wipe it up when it'swet?
And now let's say you don't.
Okay, there's plenty ofadvanced stuff in there too, but
there's a lot of the basicstuff of how do I wipe it up
(05:41):
when it's wet so it doesn'tbecome ugly and doesn't become
nasty.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That's right.
I love that analogy it wasmaking me think of.
You know, if it's sitting therelonger and longer and, like you
said, it can mold, it can stainwhatever surface it's laying on
, and so that's stained rightthere.
In some instances it'spermanent, and that's really
(06:07):
tragic.
If we let something sit for solong, it seems like there's no
going back.
It gets to a point where maybethere's nothing that we can do
to resolve that conflict.
So I'd like to talk about thattype of conflict, maybe a little
later on, but something thatyou said that piqued my interest
is, you know, let's wipe it upwith a sponge, a wet sponge, now
(06:30):
, before it gets to that point.
So many people, though, arereally hesitant to have a
conversation about something,even if it's just the slightest
little thing.
What is it that you've learnedabout people that?
Why are we not willing to bringsomething up to somebody else?
(06:51):
What's going on there?
That that is so difficult forus to even get started in this?
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Fear, fear.
And the fear is not foolish.
The fear is well placed becauseyou know, we're all adults, we
were all children and youexperimented with things and you
got whacked down hard or yougot rejected, or you got
betrayed or you got abandoned.
No one escapes this lifeunscathed, nobody.
So we all have had thoseexperiences, and by the time
(07:20):
we're in adulthood, we figuredout all right, this is my MO,
right, this is how my modusoperandi, this is how I'm going
to operate, this is safe, thisworks.
You want me to try something new?
What are you crazy?
Why would I do that?
This works, and so the questionI have for our listeners is
does it really work, or does itonly work in a quarter of the
(07:43):
time, or less than half the time?
And what does it cost you?
So, again, another analogy is asif we are cavemen and cavewomen
and we're just shoving food inour mouths.
Well, here's a fork, here's aspoon, here's a knife, here's
chopsticks what's going to workbest for you?
And you want to make somethingeasy?
Because I don't.
Again, I am not kumbaya.
(08:04):
I mean, my work is real.
You have to get and deal withreal stuff all day, every day,
and when it's real, there's alot of fear, and the fear can
also inhibit your skill setdevelopment to try to do
something.
And so if people want magicbeans, a magic thing you could
do right now, it's curiosity.
(08:25):
That is the number one thingyou can do.
And yet that's really hard,because if you say something
that is so stupid or so selfishor so power grabby or so fill in
the blank, it's very hard forme to go.
Well, I'm just going to becurious now about you, because
your amygdala, which is the fearand negativity center of the
(08:46):
brain, gets triggered.
And that's one of the reasons Icalled the book Holding the
Calm is because that's themantra I use for myself.
I've an amygdala, I just have avery, very long wick because
I've had 35 years in thetrenches of human conflict to
actually practice what works.
I'm sort of like a doctor ofhumanity.
(09:07):
But I can get hangry, I can gettired, I can get.
You know, I'm a normal personlike everybody else and I give
myself grace.
And so the trick is I say tomyself I'm holding the calm, I'm
holding the calm, I'm holdingthe calm.
That took two seconds, and soour listeners are probably
(09:28):
saying well, what's thedifference between saying take a
deep breath or calm down.
And if there's one takeaway forthis talk, for everybody
listening to me, eliminate thosewords from your vocabulary.
Eliminate them.
Never, ever, ever, ever tellsomebody to calm down or take a
deep breath.
And the reason why is if aperson's amygdala is triggered,
(09:49):
anytime you're upset, annoyed,bothered, frightened, scared
your amygdala is triggered Everysingle time the amygdala feels
powerless.
So what does a person do whenthey feel powerless?
They grab power.
Anyway, they can, eveninappropriately, even wrongly,
even selfishly or unfairly.
That's what they will do.
(10:11):
And when you say to somebodywhoa, you are out of control,
take a deep breath, calm downAll you're doing is exacerbating
that sense of powerlessness.
So the first thing you do isyou get power.
So if I'm feeling powerless,I'm going to give myself power.
I'm holding the calm, I'mholding the calm, I'm holding
the calm.
In that two seconds it says tomy amygdala oh, girlfriend, you
(10:37):
have tools, you've got sometricks up your sleeve.
How do you want to handle this?
That calms me down 75%.
Now I can think, now I candecide what I want to do.
It also works if I do that forsomebody else.
So you and I've had this talk,so we're friends.
Something happens.
I can say, jen, you want me tohold the calm with you.
(10:57):
You can either go no, I got itor you're going to go, yes,
please, god.
Okay, let's say you have noidea what holding the calm is,
so you can't really say that tosomebody.
What I may look to you and sayyou seem very frustrated.
How can I help?
That's holding the calm forsomebody.
You seem really angry.
Is there something I can do tohelp?
(11:19):
What can I do to ease yourburden?
How can I stop making this hurtso much?
Imagine you're firing somebodyand the person's really upset
and you say how can I make thishurt?
Not so much, for God's sakes.
What does that do to the poison?
It just drains out so much ofour pain, our misery, our
(11:43):
anguish.
That leads to tension andconflict and aggression comes
from pain and comes from fear,and so you can't spend 20 years
on a shrink's couch to try tofigure all this stuff out.
So that's why I wrote thissimple, cheap, $15 little
paperback to say here here'ssome good things you could do
(12:04):
right now to take control, totake power.
It's really magic, jen.
It's just really magic.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I love the fact that you're leaning into just take a
couple of seconds and with justthat one phrase and, like you
said, repeating it over just acouple of seconds, it really
does give you that opportunitythat you need to think about.
Like you said, what do I wantto have happen here?
(12:33):
Because we have choices righthow we interact with someone in
that moment in time, that'sgonna have an impact, that's
gonna influence how they respondto us.
In turn and I face this all thetime as a media analyst we're
in a situation it's kind of aweird situation we meet over
Zoom and we always have avariety of different political
(12:59):
viewpoints and we read the newsand we have to talk about it,
and most of the time, we allview the news pretty similarly.
But, as everybody can imagine,we're gonna get to those few
articles that we really need tohave a conversation, because
either the bias is so apparentor the reliability is so low and
(13:24):
we don't know where our ownblind spots are.
So it's really important to beable to have those conversations
.
But, like you said, even thoughwe've been doing this for a long
time, I remember one time I wasworking with another analyst
and we started going down therails a little bit and I
remember the analyst said to mebecause I said, well, let's make
(13:47):
sure that we're staying focusedon we're not here to advocate
right a position, we're here tojust look at the text and let's
see what the text is telling usand then decide whether or not
the text itself is biased,reliable.
And she said to me I don't needa lecture, just like that.
And I did exactly what you saidto do.
(14:08):
I had to kind of back away fora moment.
Now I didn't have the languagethat you were saying right there
, that phrase, but I was doingsomething very similar.
And then that gave me just thebrief moment I needed to just
kind of back away and then backin to think about how do I want
to address this in this momentin time, because it could have
(14:29):
easily gone in the wrongdirection.
And that's such a criticalmoment in time right there to
take that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Isn't it?
Would you like a quick thingthat you can do in that
circumstance to totally turnthat around?
Yes, yes.
So what happens is people takepositions based on their
identity.
So let's say you bringinformation that shows they're
wrong, 98% of people don't go.
Oh well, gosh, darn it, I'mwrong.
(14:58):
Oh well, I guess I'll justrevamp what I'm thinking.
They don't do that.
They push and punch harder.
So when you get something likewhy didn't need a lecture, I
mean, you struck home, but itwasn't persuasive.
So in that instance what thatperson needs because they're
feeling powerless, they'refeeling judged, they're feeling
stupid, they're feeling wrongedor criticized is the answer is
(15:23):
they need validation.
And then in my book I have aton of sentence stems that you
have.
They are your friend.
So what you can say in thatsituation is you know what I
admire about you?
No one says another word.
They are wrapped with attention.
(15:44):
What are you gonna say next?
Right, this works at theThanksgiving table with your
idiot uncle.
It works with your difficultsister-in-law.
This works with the coach onyour kid's team, or the neighbor
, or your boss or your coworkeror a client.
It works with everybody.
So when something gets hot andyou can feel it starting to get
(16:04):
hot, you immediately stop it andyou choose your verb what I
admire about you, what I respectabout you, what I enjoy about
you, what I like about you, whatI love about you, and then you
say something authentic andlet's say it's a hard person,
it's really hard for you tovalidate them.
You know, what you can say, yourdedication, your persistence,
(16:27):
your commitment, your clarity,your decision-making, your
effort.
You can say any of those words.
So if you pick a couple of themand those are kind of your
go-tos, so they're just in yourmind, put it at a post-it note
on your phone.
Put it in your phone as apost-it note so when the
situation happens and it's hot,like you said something and she
(16:52):
kind of punched at you, youeasily could have if you were
emotionally immature or tired orcranky, or you could have
punched back.
Instead you took a step back.
Instead you took a step back.
Beautiful.
And then the next, leaning inpiece, is this validation, and
while I just described it,that's how you validate people
(17:13):
that you don't agree with at all.
Yeah, you won't like at all.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, it takes a thousand people to build a
building and just one malcontentwith a stick of dynamite to
ruin it all.
Knowing how to reduce conflictand diffuse tension is key to a
happy life and, even though ittends to be difficult for most
of us, there are some simpletricks and tools that we can
learn that will really improveour life.
Today, pesha Abrams, aworld-renowned mediator,
(17:45):
negotiator and author with over30 years as an expert in
resolving conflict, implementsinnovative approaches and
thought-provoking solutions thatobtain favorable outcomes for
even the most complex matters.
Pesha's popular new bookHolding the Calm shares her
secrets of how to read asituation to resolve tension,
(18:06):
eliminate conflict and restoreharmony.
Get a copy of the book today,available on Amazon.
Click on the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And let me give our listeners one more advanced tip,
because I like to do theseadvanced and not just the basic
like brush your teeth, yeah,yeah, yeah, I know what you're
talking about.
I know what you communicatenicely with people, okay, okay.
Okay Is, let's say, I have todeal with someone that I despise
.
I mean, I despise or I'mfrightened of, or, and I have to
(18:41):
deal with them.
It's a client, it's a boss,it's a teacher, it's.
I can't run away, I'm stuckdealing with them.
As long as I look through thefilter of how terrible you are,
it's gonna be very hard for meto do it.
So I'm gonna look at you andI'm gonna ask myself one
question Would you pull my kidout of a burning car?
(19:02):
95% of the time, the answer tothat will be yes, okay.
Now I look at you as the personwho pulled my kid out of a
burning car and if it only givesyou a 2% aperture, a 2% opening
, fine.
Maybe it gives you a 20%opening, fine.
That's the place you go intoand then do this validation
(19:23):
stuff.
You will see people literallymelt in your hands and no one's
gonna say, oh my goodness, jen,you're very good at this,
holding the calm stuff.
They're just gonna say wow, youcan just handle anything.
Yeah, you can get along withanyone.
Wow, you can just handleproblems.
Wow, you just get things done.
(19:44):
That's what they're gonna say.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, yeah.
What if you are in a situationwhere there is someone and it
could be a friend, a familymember, a co-worker, whoever and
you've known this person for avery long time and you just feel
, man, they require so much workall the time?
I'm always validating themalways.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And those who have listened to me for a very long
time, they know what I'm aboutto say.
Next, empathy does not comeeasy for me.
I'm just one of those peoplethat I like to just say let's
just get to the bottom of theproblem.
Okay, let's just don't worryabout the emotions, let's just
solve the problem and then wecan all move on from it.
So you know like.
(20:37):
So don't get your feelings hurt, damn it.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
It can be exhausting, because how's that been working
out for you?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know, I have learned over the years and this
is the funny thing about that Ihad someone tell me recently
they're like Jen, you know.
That's just not true.
You are one of the mostempathetic people that I've ever
known, and I just I had tolaugh.
I said you know, what hashappened is I've learned that
there's a difference betweenempathic listening and then
(21:10):
listening to solve the problemright, that critical listening.
And I've learned to just stayquiet long enough to observe and
be able to tell okay, or evenask the person.
Are you here to vent?
In that case, I got you, I willshut up and you can vent away.
Or is this something thatyou're actually looking to?
(21:31):
Have some assistance here?
And that has solved a lot of myproblems, but because I've
learned to do that, I fooledeveryone to think that I have
empathy.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
That was beautifully done, jen, exactly correct.
And you know what I tell peopleis for God's sakes, give
yourself some grace.
You know human beings are weird, they're difficult, they're
challenging.
They're also beautiful andmagnificent and enriching.
It's all of it.
It's just all of it.
And so you've got to giveyourself some grace that
(22:05):
sometimes you know your time isyour wealth.
Your time and your energy isyour wealth.
It's like these old women thatsay, ah, at least you got your
health.
You know, it really is true,your time.
I mean, all you have to say islet somebody get a cancer
diagnosis.
And all of the time resourcesare used very differently.
(22:25):
You know, and God knows, youdon't know what's going to
happen tomorrow.
You know, I always think ofthat poor guy reading his
newspaper and his lazy boy in aplane falls out of the sky and
it's his life.
You just don't know whattomorrow will bring.
And so if someone is too muchfor you, you are allowed to say
I wish I could help you rightnow, but I've got another call
(22:48):
or the meeting I've got to go to.
But you know what?
I believe in you and I believethat you can handle this.
See that little validationpiece and then escape.
You have no obligation to bepeople's emotional garbage can.
That is not the same as beingempathetic.
So each one of us has to playthat balancing game every day
(23:10):
with every person in everysituation, until you kind of get
good with.
This is where I'm going to giveand this is where I'm not.
I wish I'd given a little morethere, or I wish I'd given a
little less there.
Okay, that's called grace.
I'm a big believer.
You know, I'm going to be 65years old this year and I go.
I finally my sixth decade oflife.
I feel like I finally learned afew things.
(23:33):
That's one of the big ones isyour energy is finite and spew
it around and not have it.
Plant seeds Not a good use ofresources.
And you are allowed I giveeverybody permission, you know
to to marshal and protect yourresources and then to use them
(23:54):
wisely, obi-wan.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I guess they probably need to be
prepared, even if they do it asnicely as possible.
Or, you know, with all thevalidation in the world,
sometimes you might run acrosssomeone who's still isn't going
to appreciate the fact thatyou've said now.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
There you go and your boundaries are your boundaries.
There you go.
But just because you know, youremotional immaturity does not
become my problem unless I allowit to become my problem.
And one of the beautiful thingsabout again why I call the book
holding the calm is it createsa moat around your feelings and
(24:32):
how you choose to react to thethings.
So let me see my hands.
I'm like pushing out, becauseso many of us we feel something
Boom, boom.
It's right there, andnanosecond in between feeling
and reacting.
The more you can create space, amoat around what you feel and
how you choose to act, thehappier, the calmer, the more
(24:55):
successful, the more efficient,the more you're going to be.
That's just the reality of it,and I'm human too.
Every once in a while somethingwill happen and I go God, okay,
back to my moat.
And that's why I again, I keepusing the.
I say it to myself I'm holdingthe calm.
I'm holding the calm because itworks.
(25:15):
Like your grandmother wouldgive you a rubber band and tell
you to snap your wrist, you knowthat's right.
I don't want to hurt myself.
You know that hurts when yousnap yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I'm already suffering enough, all right.
Why do I want to exacerbatethis?
So true?
Oh, I mean such valuable advicehere.
So, as a mediator, are youworking more with individuals,
one-on-one, or are you goinginto organizations and you're
(25:49):
helping organizations figure out, you know, how to manage their
conflict more effectively?
How are you going out there andspreading?
Speaker 1 (25:59):
the good word.
Thank you.
I mean I've been doing this along time so I have done every
possible kind of case.
Now I tend to do very large,very complex, very difficult
cases, usually between companiesor inventors, that kind of
stuff, where it's usually verycomplicated and very involved.
Because it's more complicated,it's more fun to me.
(26:20):
You know being figured out.
But I'll tell you, the big CEOof a huge Fortune 100 company is
the same guy or gal as somebodywho the neighbor drove over
your roses and your pistols Imean exactly the same and has
the same late at night.
You know what they're talkingto me about?
Ugh, they're kids.
The cross coach is such anidiot and won't give the kid
(26:43):
playtime and what can they do soit?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
seems like such a normal conversation to have and
a lot of people, I guess, don'tview CEOs of Fortune 100
companies in that light Exactlythe same, or their ex-wife, you
know, or it's just human beingsand bumper car emotions.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And you know, look at our world now.
We've got people, you know,with guns shooting the place up.
So you get, okay, no guns, andthen you get people saying wait,
wait, wait, don't take away myguns.
There's no discussion in thatGulf.
The real Gulf is how do we keeppeople safer and how do we off
gas, anger and diffusing oftension?
Because we have a lot of it inour society and it's very hard
(27:24):
because everyone is labeled inour society you are part of this
club or you're part of thatclub, and the clubs actually
have flags, they've got colors,they've got secret words, and so
it doesn't really matter evenwhat the content is.
It's well, I have to believethis, I'm part of that club and
nobody thinks that way, but noone wants to be ex-communicated
(27:47):
from the club and so you join inwith whatever that belief
system is, and so talking topeople about content is just
like a waste of time.
You know, I have a chapter inthe book that I call creating
small winnable victories,because if you tackle I mean,
just think of abortion it's ababy killer right to my body.
(28:09):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Where is there?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
There's no in between , and so creating small,
winnable victories with a groupof people is.
You know, chapter one of thebook is speaking to the ears
that are hearing you.
So, just as an example to ourlisteners, if you're talking to
an introvert, would you speakthe same way to an extrovert?
We all kind of say, oh no, ofcourse I wouldn't.
(28:35):
But yet we do.
We talk our way, we do ourthing.
There's a famous behavioralistnamed Maslow who said that if
all you have is a hammer, allyou will see are nails.
And so it's a big thing to beable to say OK, I'm an extrovert
, I'm an introvert, this is howI talk.
So in order for me to talk toyou, I have to take three
(28:56):
seconds to actually look at you.
I was like a bomb detector inthe town square.
He waddles out in his Michelinsuit.
He doesn't just start cuttingjunk, he looks, he diagnoses
what is the situation.
It's the same thing when you'rein any kind of a difficult
conversation, tense conversationor one that has the potential
(29:17):
to be that way.
Take a minute to speak into theears that are hearing you.
If you're a vegetarian, I'm notgoing to talk to you about
steak.
If you're a big steak eater,I'm not going to talk to you
about plants and I'm doing thebasic stuff.
But this is not hard.
People can just master thisdramatic, dramatic, dramatic
(29:41):
improvement.
And then you're fine tuningmore and more and more and more
and more and more advanced stuff, but even the basic stuff.
Remember fork knife chopsticks.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you, since you have been in this field for 30
plus years now, have youwitnessed it in society or, I
guess, even in between justindividuals, those who are
within our society?
Has there been a decline inindividuals ability to engage in
(30:22):
civil discussion?
It just I don't know.
We have conversations all thetime in the groups that I'm in
and we love to lament aboutcommunication.
Today, you know, and as the youknow, no longer we can't even
talk to anybody here.
What have you observed, youknow, over the past, since you
(30:43):
have actually been activelyengaged in this field of
conflict resolution andmanagement?
Are we seeing it correctly?
I mean, has it gotten worse orare we just more aware of it now
than we used to be?
Speaker 1 (30:56):
So I'm gonna say something a little controversial
, because it's a long time.
I don't think it's any worse.
I think people never reallyhave the ability to talk to each
other because we don't teachthis in schools talk like your
mom and daddy talked or yourgrandma, and that's what you get
.
What we are getting now, though,is less civility, that we still
(31:22):
can't talk to each other, socan't listen to another
perspective, another point ofview, but what we've lost is the
ability to well, we can agreeto disagree.
Yeah, that's okay, or, you know, jen, I just think you're wrong
Versus Jen, I'm gonna punch youin the face because you're
wrong.
It's the intensity that hashappened, and neuroscientists
(31:45):
call this a standardization ofdeviance.
Just to give a quick example,my husband's an airline pilot
and was a Czech Airman withAmerican Airlines, and he told
me that, a few decades ago,airplanes would get damaged all
the time the luggage carts,beverage carts, you know.
Some guy went and paid attentionand they whack the plane.
Well, you can't take off then,and all the people have to
(32:07):
deplane.
You gotta fix it.
It's a big deal.
So they did a rule and theysaid 10 feet away.
Everyone has to stay 10 feetaway from a plane.
People don't know what 10 feetis, so, finally, they took a
paint, sort of like you do adead body on the sidewalk in the
history.
They did the shape of the plane10 feet away from the plane,
(32:28):
and guess what?
All the accidents dropped downto almost zero.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
But then what happened after a couple of years
?
Joe was used to parking hiscart right on the edge of the
yellow line.
He's a little lazy today anddoesn't want to have to carry
the stuff as far, so he goes ina foot.
Well, steve sees him do it.
It's not a big deal, the linedoesn't really matter that much,
right?
And he goes in a foot andbefore you know it, that's
(32:54):
called the standardization ofdeviance.
When the boundary is notrespected, when the line is not
enforced, boom, boom, boom, theline meant nothing anymore and
they started to wind up with theplanes again.
So in countries that they don'tgive out traffic tickets for
people running red lights,you've got horrible fatalities.
Our country, well, no one likesgetting a ticket or getting
(33:16):
stopped by a police officer, buthe or she's honestly saving
your life by doing that becausethey're enforcing the lines.
That's kind of what's happenedin our country, with lack of
civil discourse between socialmedia, the talking heads
screaming and yelling at eachother.
You know the newspaper sayingif it bleeds, it leads.
(33:37):
So we no longer can have niceconversations and be satisfied
with it.
Now there has to be intensityand drama and that, and that is
really so.
My big thing to people is let'sjust tone it down.
We can still completelydisagree and think about things
(33:57):
differently, but let's tone itdown and go get a coffee
together, right, and the more wecan do that as individuals.
In my little sphere ofinfluence, I'm doing this.
In your little sphere ofinfluence, you're doing that.
I would ask everyone to listenhere.
Take a moment now and thinkwhat is your sphere of influence
(34:17):
?
And in that, whatever sphere ofinfluence you've got, you just
say I'm taking a stand forcivility.
That's what I'm doing.
I'm not gonna label, I'm gonnasay we agree to disagree on that
, but I still like you as aperson.
It was amazing what will happen.
People will talk to you more,they will listen to you more,
(34:39):
more will get done and you'llget less agitated and aggravated
, which you know let's talkabout.
Having a happy and good liferequires not getting agitated
all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah, I can't agree with you more.
One of the things that I reallyappreciate about that is
sometimes we are gonna have toagree to disagree.
I mean, at the end of the day,the reality is, if I have this
belief system and you have thatbelief system, the likelihood of
us convincing the other one tocompletely agree with us is, I
(35:15):
mean, it's not very high thatthat's gonna happen, and I have
been.
I find it personallyfrustrating, you know,
especially social media.
I have to limit the amount ofI'm exposing myself to social
media because the number ofpeople who don't agree with that
(35:35):
, you know, the whole agree todisagree thing is not something
that they think is legitimate,you know.
No, you have to agree with meon this and I'm going to beat
you down, you know.
And until you acquiesce towhatever it is that you know, I
believe and that is socompletely exhausting and it's
(35:56):
like you're beating your head upagainst a brick wall, like why
are you doing that to yourself?
Why are you doing it to theother person, but why are you
doing that to yourself to begin?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
with.
Try the validation.
Sentence them in thosesituations, cause even if you
can't convince them or stop it,you'll feel better about
yourself.
What will happen is your sphereof influence will increase a
little bit.
Yeah, other people will noticeand they'll say you handle that
really well.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
That was.
You know what I admire aboutyou your dedication.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
You know what I respect about you, your
commitment, your commitment.
You know it's not hard to doand it stops people in their
tracks, cause very often whenpeople are spouting off, what
they're really saying is I'm avery insecure little person and
I need to feel important or Ineed to feel valued and listen
(36:49):
to me.
Right, okay, okay, and you'llsee people.
When you do that, often they'llwalk back the position.
Wow, that's not the way I meantit.
I don't think it's not that much.
Yeah, oh, okay, okay, you know,I mean it's.
People think about wars.
(37:10):
Wars are really actually over.
People want to keep fightingand keep fighting and keep
fighting.
So rare for someone to go andthey go to court.
They keep doing appeals andappeals and appeals.
It's not like, okay, you lost,so are you there like you're
done, win or lose.
I mean, our justice system isdesigned for at some point the
(37:31):
files got to be closed.
That's right, it's done.
And yet, you know, we just keepthe fight going because of the
identity of the person and so.
That's one of the things I liketo talk about in the book.
Have lots of stories in thebook and they're all
battle-tested, and what I tellpeople is I can give you words.
You won't remember a doggonething.
(37:53):
I said I give you storiesallergies.
You'll walk away, go, you knowwhat.
How does that apply to my life?
And what did that do you know?
Like?
I just thought of one that'snot in the book.
Should I tell you now and helpour help, our listeners have a
little bonus?
Oh, absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
If you've read my book cracking the rich code, you
know it is chock full offantastic advice from top
thought leaders and supersuccessful entrepreneurs from
around the world.
How would you like to be amember of an exclusive community
that provides that same how-tocontent from those same leaders?
What if you were able to attendmember only live events and
(38:41):
interact with them?
I'd like to invite you to jointhe rich code club.
It will change the way youthink about yourself, your money
and your life.
It's the only social mediaplatform Purely focused on
helping you grow.
Join the rich code club todayfor free by clicking on the link
in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I Heard this on NPR hidden brain and was after the
book was, but I just thought howbrilliant it brings this point
home.
So there's a company that wouldsell 20 and 30 thousand dollar
couches.
They were bespoke, customized.
(39:23):
You could make them any lengthyou wanted to pick the piping
and the fabric and the this andthe that I'm do-do-do and fancy,
fancy, fancy, right, and youwould design all this stuff
online.
People would get All the way tothe point of sale and a huge
percentage would not completethe sale.
The company was from ox,because these are people,
clearly, that could afford itand had invested time and energy
(39:45):
in designing it.
Why are they completing the dogon sale?
So what do people do?
You have a car.
You either have gas or you havea break.
95% of us put on the gas.
I'm gonna talk more, I'm gonnapersuade more, I'm gonna do more
, I'm gonna convince more, I'mgonna give more.
So here, more sales, morepromotion, more advertising.
(40:07):
Pasha didn't change a dog onthing.
So finally, that that put thebrakes on and they hired
somebody to contact all thepeople at the point of sale who
didn't complete the sale andchat and be nice and lovely with
them and then say do you mindif I ask why you didn't complete
the sale?
The number one, overwhelmingreason why people that could
(40:29):
afford a twenty thousand dollarcouch didn't complete the sale,
but a boom, betta, bang.
They didn't know what to dowith the old couch.
Isn't that ridiculous?
Well, obviously, the solutionis so easy now We'll take away
your old one, give you a timewhen we bring you the new one.
It just had never dawned onanybody, and so I Guarantee all
(40:52):
of our listeners that if youthink of a couple of people that
you're in some conflict withnow or that you just don't want
to deal with, there is a barrierthere that you have not
discovered.
And if you go into it trying touncover the barrier in instead
of trying to persuade orconvince, the problem just kind
(41:13):
of goes away.
Or they agree, or sometimesthey think it was their idea and
they agreed, and you still getwhat you Want anyway.
Who cares?
You know you decide on thedefinition of a win for you when
you go into it.
But I love that story.
You know a book, I've got tonsof stories, and so if you're
(41:33):
flamocs, if you're at a pointwhere Gen we're, I can't even
talk to you.
We see the world so differentlyand you're not willing to
listen to anything.
I'm not sure what to say to you.
Stop talking, give them a story.
Yeah, just say you know whatthat reminds me of a story.
Or I read us.
I read this in Holding the Calm,this cool book, and what I tell
(41:55):
people is take my stories.
They are.
Everyone I put in there isdesigned to be told in less than
a minute and it's been battletested by me and real live
Conflict situations, and it hadto work at least 10 or 15 times
before I put it in the book.
So every single one of themworks.
Take my stories they have beenresearched, you know, because
(42:16):
you're more likely to go tell mea story.
First of all, you get a breakfrom me haranguing you and
Telling basically how wrong youare and how right I am.
Yeah, now we, we are togetherListening to a story and then
you take away from it Whateveryou choose to take away from it.
It's a terrific technique and Ihave used it with, you know,
(42:37):
truck drivers to CEOs andeverything in between, because
it's the.
It's a human experience.
We talk about all thisdiversity, equity, inclusion,
stuff, which, yeah, yeah, yeah,I know we need to do it.
It's all important.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I want to go below that.
I don't want to talk to someoneas a black woman or a white man
(42:57):
or a Hispanic female like what.
That's your outside.
I'm interested in your inside.
Are you an introvert, anextrovert Do you?
Are you a thinking personversus a feeling person?
Are you a big picture person?
Are you a detail person?
Are you a rebel renegade whodoesn't follow rules, or are you
a person that only followsrules?
Mm-hmm, that's like easy stuff.
(43:19):
People will self reveal that toyou so easy in the first 10
minutes of talking.
Okay, so if I'm dealing withthe rebel rouser, I'm not gonna
talk about these are the rules,and if I'm talking with a rule
follower, I'm not gonna go throwthe rulebook away.
Go with your gut, right?
It's not hard Once you trainyour brain to think like that.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, yeah.
It's so interesting that yousaid that I was telling a friend
the other day that I was gonnahave you on the show and we were
gonna talk about conflictmanagement.
And, of course, whenever youtalk to anybody about, oh, I'm
gonna talk to so-and-so aboutconflict management, I always
get really excited because theyalready have something in mind.
You know that that they'rereally interested in in
(44:02):
connection to this topic, andone of the things that I like to
talk about when I work withgroups on communication skills
is it's something very similar Italk about how to identify
different communication stylesso that you can adapt to others
communication style rather thantrying to force them to be like
(44:23):
you.
Figure their style out so thatyou can adapt to them.
And it's gonna take you a lotfarther, you know, in the, in
the conversations that you havewith them and you know I will be
asked the question all the timeWell, what about the
differences between men andwomen?
And they communicate, and Onething that, one thing that I
(44:44):
have found in focusing on thecommunication style is it takes
that away.
Yeah, you know, and really, inthat sense, there really are no
differences in how men and womencommunicate.
When you're talking about theactual Communication style
itself if you're just focusingon that rather than focusing on,
(45:06):
you know, if there are man orif there are woman.
Yeah, um it.
What do you?
What do you say to that in inthe conflict management Arena?
Do you view that similarly ordo you have a different take on
that?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
No, I agree with you totally and I laugh out loud,
because when someone says how doyou deal, how do you talk to
men or how do you negotiate withmen, what you're really saying
to me is your skill set is verylimited in that area, because
you look at all women or all menis this giant amorphous mass.
It's almost like saying how doI talk to Asians?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah right, if you were to say that out loud, there
would be the get the audiblegas.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yes, but let's make it like even real.
You know well how do I talk toblack people Ridiculous, it
sounds, ridiculous, it is, it is.
So what I tell people iseverything you just said.
You just you go, bullet you.
I told me chapter one of thebooks speak into the ears that
are hearing you.
It requires me to look at you,to listen to you, to see who you
(46:11):
are as a person.
And you know, the ancillarybenefit of that is you feel like
I care, give a darn meter isn'tbroken.
So when someone feels likethey're give a darn meter isn't
broken, I'm more likely to wantto engage with you.
Mm-hmm, I talked to you becauseyou seem to kind of care about
(46:33):
me as a person.
And you know, think about it.
Most people in relationshipsthat don't work for them.
They wear clothes that areuncomfortable, they live in
places they don't like, or withpeople they don't like, they
have jobs they don't like.
That's the vast, vast majorityof people.
So in a moment of time again, Italked about the sphere of
(46:55):
influence.
This is sort of like a vortexof energy.
You are in that place with thatperson one.
You're safe, you're validating,you're listening, you're
curious, you're engaged.
It's like I have a chapter inthe book I call giving a dozen
roses, and that's what we'retalking about here.
It's like you gave somebody adozen roses and what did it take
(47:17):
me to do?
You didn't know my time, justbecause I had to think like that
.
And so you know what peoplewant, and people will ask the
same question to me too.
You know they want a magic pill.
How do you give me, give me thesentence to use to talk to all
women?
There you go.
I'm gonna say, well, it's notthat one.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
That's right.
As a matter of fact, there arenone of these.
Out of all these options, zeroof them are gonna work people
want that, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And I want to say look, I want chocolate cake to
not be fattening, right, andbrussels clouds To be to be in,
it's like, it's just what it is.
So the question again that'swhy I use the fork, spoon,
chopsticks thing.
I mean you can eat with a forklike this, stabbing it?
I mean you can, it works.
I'd rather hold the forkproperly.
Okay, but that's your level ofchoice.
(48:07):
So if you want to be the kindof person who takes food and
shoves it in your mouth, now godbless, go right ahead.
If you want to stab it withyour fork, if you want to eat
soup with your fork, okay,that's your choice.
Or here's reading glasses.
You're not seeing so well.
Can I put a pair of readingglasses on your eyes so you get
to go?
Oh, that's better and that'swhat I tell people.
(48:32):
You don't limit yourself intohow do I talk to this person?
You learn how to be a bombdetector or a doctor, and I look
at you.
And I've got one more analogy,just because that's what people
will remember when they listento us Uh, your tummy hurts, you
go into the ER and you go bleh.
Right, most of us go gross.
(48:52):
I don't want to look at that,not the ER doc.
She looks at it.
Smell like it should smell.
Are there pills in there?
Is there metal?
Is there undigested food?
It's a diagnostic for her.
So, people have emotional bleh.
That's just vomit, that's allit is.
And so, if you can look at itas a diagnostic tool, people are
(49:15):
really not that complicated,they really aren't.
They will self reveal veryquickly and very clearly and
then you can go oh okay, Ididn't realize that so much,
really angry.
I tell you that person who'sreally angry has fear underneath
.
Now, maybe you can get to it,maybe you can't.
(49:36):
Your job is not to be a shrink,but my job is to not let that
blow me out of the water, right.
So I look at you, my boss, oh,going at me like this, and I
look at you as just a scaredlittle boy in his underwear
takes away a lot of the power.
Right Now I can make choicesand then say, instead of saying,
(50:00):
what are you afraid of, whichis really accusatory, well,
what's the biggest concern toyou?
Think of the couch story.
What's the barrier in your wayof wanting to try that?
And then people will end uptelling you things that you
didn't know, and then you'll getto go oh yeah, makes sense to
me.
Oh yeah, maybe there's not asolution to that, or, you know,
(50:23):
I do have an idea that might bea solution to that.
Now look what's also happenedfrom a neuroscience point of
view.
You and I have created a subtlelittle team, building the
chapter in the book where I talkabout the benefit of plural
pronouns, and we, instead of Ior you yes, you can do this, we
(50:43):
will look into this.
It literally, psychologicallyjust works with people and this
stuff is just magic and when youcan play with it.
That's why I insisted with mypublisher It'd be a simple
paperback.
I wanted an inexpensive.
I put a discussion guide in theback so that 15 people in an
(51:05):
organization want to buy it andthen have lunch and go over the
discussion questions in the back.
That can get continuingeducation credit or training
credit or whatever they do.
And then you don't need to hiresome big fancy trainer to come
in and do it for you.
You can discuss it withyourselves, because what will
happen is we're talking and, jen, you'll say, well, I thought
that story was stupid.
(51:25):
Really, I found it veryimpactful.
And then you're going to say,really, tell me more.
Now that's how real traininghappens.
It doesn't happen because Istand on a podium and do
entertainment, which is stillvaluable in its own right, of
course, but the real trainingisn't that small group stuff
(51:45):
with people saying, really, whywould you think like that?
Huh, isn't that interesting?
And the questions track thebook.
So it's simple, it's easy,because I want people to get
better at this in their homelives, with their kids, with
their bosses at work, with theirneighbors.
(52:07):
So that standardization, adeviance thing I was talking
about we can take the civilityand pop it out another foot or
two, yeah, and then that's thestandard by which we talk.
We talk hateful talk.
We don't talk accusatory talk.
We can say, let's say,someone's spouting hard at me.
I can say, ok, I hear you and Ihear how strongly and how
(52:30):
passionately you believe that.
Do you think I might have adifferent opinion?
Yeah, that stops people intheir tracks.
Huh, what?
Well, no reasonable personcould.
Do you think I'm a reasonableperson?
Now, all of a sudden, they stopand they listen.
Oh, this is 80% of the time Idon't worry about the 10% or 20%
(52:53):
crazy, because that's beyondthe scope of what we can do here
.
That requires realprofessionals and I do that in
my real professional world.
But any of the time this isgoing to work, I'm going to call
that good.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
That's right.
Yeah, leading with questionsthat's what I'm hearing over and
over again the leading withquestions, and that really does
open up a whole world for thatconversation to be able to take
place.
I just really love that.
That is absolutely wonderful.
I'm telling you, listeners, Itold you keep your notebook out.
(53:30):
You're going to learn so muchin this conversation.
I have learned so much in thisconversation.
I've really enjoyed this.
This has been absolutelywonderful.
I can't believe we've alreadybeen speaking for over 50
minutes, so we're coming up onthe hour here really quick.
But before we wrap things up, Iwanted to ask you is there
(53:50):
anything that you didn't have anopportunity to touch on out of
the conversation that we've hadthus far that you'd really like
the listeners to be able to hear?
Speaker 1 (54:02):
You asked so many good questions.
I feel like we talked about alot of things, so it was really
good.
What I would tell people is Ihave a web page holding
thecomcom and I don't sell theemail list to anybody, so you
can sign up and then I come upwith cool stuff all the time.
And as I'm coming up with coolstuff, I just send out emails to
my folks because people aretrying to do this better.
(54:23):
And if you want to connect withme on LinkedIn, hesha Abrams, I
post all the time and I dolittle one minute videos, and
the benefit of the one minutevideos is you can email it to
somebody, I mean, let's say, tosomebody who's difficult and
you're having a challenge with.
Instead of saying, my god,you're difficult, you can say,
oh, I just saw this one minutevideo on this topic, I thought
(54:45):
it was interesting, and then youforward it on over to them.
So there's a lot of subtle waysto be able to do that.
So, linkedin, I've got aFacebook page and on my Holding,
the Com site, because I'mreally and I would ask our
listeners as a favor to me, ifyou do buy the book I mean, you
can get it anywhere Barnes andNoble Books of Million Walmart.
(55:07):
But Amazon, of course, is thebig dog in that fight to leave a
good review, because that helpsthe search algorithm, because
the more people we can get to bereading this and talking about
it, maybe we can actually takeback our society and create more
civility.
And at least you, dear listener, within your sphere of
(55:27):
influence and Jen does it withinher sphere of influence and I
do it within mine we're likelittle cells of a body getting
healthier and healthier, andhealthier, and I really do
believe that we can make animpact.
I really do.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
That's fantastic.
I will make sure that all ofthat information is in the show
notes for the listeners.
Make sure that you connect withHesha online through her social
media platforms.
Buy the book wherever you wantto get your book.
Just make sure you get the bookand, I agree, make sure that
you leave.
Just leave something on Amazonif you decide to buy it on
(56:04):
Amazon.
Let everybody know how it workedand how wonderful it was.
I know, as an author myself,greatly appreciate having those
reviews out there.
So let's do that for Hesha,because I think this is
absolutely wonderful.
And thank you so much for beingon the show and just sharing
(56:24):
with us everything that youexperienced within this realm
and giving us some tidbits,those golden nuggets of
information out of your book.
I know somebody out there islistening to this and they're
going to try, just like you said, experiment with it.
This is a skill, just like anyother skill.
We got to work at it to getgood at it.
(56:46):
So experiment with it and thenreport back to us Let us know
how it goes, because I'm reallycurious.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Love it, that's great .
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Well, everyone, have a great rest of your day and I
hope you all will just keepworking at it.
This thing we call life and theconversations we have.
It ain't easy, so we'll justkeep plugging away at it.
All right, hesha?
Thanks again, everybody, takecare.
Thanks for listening.
(57:24):
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podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
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