December 18, 2025 • 42 mins
January 26 is a date that continues to divide Australia. For some it is “Australia Day”. For many First Peoples, it is Invasion Day, Survival Day, or a Day of Mourning.
In this episode of Community Conversations, host Sarah Sherry (Clothing The Gaps) is joined by Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara woman, CEO and co-founder of Clothing The Gaps) and Phil Jenkyn (OAM, barrister and community activist, co-convener of the Australia Long Weekend idea) to unpack why January 26 is not a date to celebrate, how community pressure is shifting public perception, and a new proposal that aims to create a more inclusive national moment.
Together they explore symbolism and policy, cultural safety, truth-telling, and a practical alternative: an Australia Long Weekend set on the second last Monday in January, designed to keep a summer long weekend while quarantining January 26 as a day for mourning and reflection.
Key takeaways
- January 26 carries deep hurt for First Nations people, and the day often brings heightened racism and division.
- Symbolism matters: changing an administrative date can be a meaningful first step toward larger justice and truth-telling.
- The Australia Long Weekend proposal aims to keep a summer celebration without anchoring it to colonisation.
- Momentum is growing because the issue now impacts many Australians, including new citizens who feel uncomfortable with January 26 ceremonies.
- Change requires respectful dialogue, accuracy, and shared responsibility from community, media, business, and government.
- Links and resources:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Laura (00:00):
If we can't listen to First Nations people's voices
who've been marching thestreets, then how can we make
more meaningful change?
Phil (00:10):
We've got to make up our minds whether we're going to be
lassoed by history to a datethat is clearly not appropriate
anymore.
Laura (00:19):
It also provided an opportunity, I thought, for a
three-day conversation, afestival where First Nations
people were part of it.
Phil (00:28):
You can't celebrate on a day, frankly, of pain and hurt
to others.
Sarah (00:35):
Welcome to Community Conversations.
I'm Sarah Sherry, co-founderand deputy CEO at
Clothing The Gaps.
Today we are recording on thelands of the Kulin Nations.
And it's so important in thisconversation about advocacy and
change to acknowledge the Elderswho have forged this path of
resistance for generationsbefore us.
This work really is built onthe shoulders of giants.
(00:57):
As a non-Indigenous woman, I'mreally grateful to be part of
this particular conversationbecause we're talking about a
date that continues to divideour nation, January 26.
For some, it's called AustraliaDay.
For many First Peoples,however, it's known as Invasion
Day, Survival Day, or a Day ofMourning.
And in this episode, we'reunpacking why January 26th is
(01:20):
not a date to celebrate andexploring the question that we
get asked constantly in thiscampaign.
But if not January 26, thenwhen?
So we're diving into this inconversation with two incredible
people.
Laura Thompson, who is aGunditjmara woman and CEO and
co-founder of Clothing The Gaps.
Now, Laws, you've had your fairshare of advocacy experience
(01:43):
over your lifetime, butespecially in leading the Free
The Flag campaign, which wassuccessful in changing two out
of the three licensingagreements over the Aboriginal
flag to see the flag back in thepublic domain.
Now you've hosted a communityconversations episode, but I'm
stoked to have you as a guesttoday.
Welcome, Laws.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you.
Sarah (02:01):
And Phil, Phil Jenkyn.
Now, Phil is the co-convenerand supporter of the Australia
Long Weekend idea.
And Phil has over 30 years ofexperience under his belt as a
barrister in Sydney,specialising in common law.
Now, Phil, you describeyourself as a community activist
and you've played key roles inyour local community in
(02:21):
resisting council amalgamations,preserving heritage sites, and
protecting headlands, which sawyou receive your OAM
recognition.
Congratulations, Phil.
And thank you both for beinghere.
I'm really looking forward todiscussing this today.
So to start us off when wethink about January 26th, I'd
really love to understand wherethe two of you are coming from
(02:42):
in this idea.
So Laws, what has yourexperience of January 26th
looked like over your lifetime?
Laura (02:49):
It's a question that I haven't really reflected on
before before because it, youknow, in some ways it always has
been a day that we've protestedand marched on the street.
So my only memory of, you know,Australia Day, which is not
what we what we call Jan 26, itwas invasion day, um, was going
(03:11):
to rallies and listening tomusic at the Survival Day
concert.
Um, it really was a day that wegot out on the streets, you
know, wore our um Aboriginalclothing with pride.
And I was with community, I waswith family, I was with other
Aboriginal people who all feltthe same way about the day.
(03:32):
So it was a day that broughtAboriginal people together in
unity.
And we made a statement that,you know, this this isn't a day
to celebrate, but we also cometogether and celebrated our
survival.
Sarah (03:45):
And it sounds like you've been celebrating that
resistance for as long as youcan remember, really.
Laura (03:50):
Pretty much.
And then my kids come on thatjourney as well as toddlers, and
it was always so hot.
Like January 26th is so hot,they'd be like, you know, we're
walking down, you know, BourkeStreet, sweating and you know,
dying around, and we could beanywhere else, but we always
chose to uh make a stand on thatday and you know, let the
community know that you knowwe're here and um it's not okay
(04:13):
that we're celebrating on thisday.
Sarah (04:15):
And Phil, what about you?
What's what's been yourrelationship with Jan 26 over
your lifetime?
Phil (04:20):
Well, it's really interesting what you say because
you're speaking as anIndigenous person.
And my background is Britishdescent.
And I wasn't taught, we weren'ttaught history, Australian
history in any real proper wayuh at school.
Um, you know, a few explorersdiscovering everything in this
(04:42):
new land.
What a load of nonsense thatis.
And so um it wasn't until Ikind of even after I studied
history at university, um, thatHenry Reynolds in reading books
did I find out what had reallyhappened in the early part and
continuing all the way through.
(05:04):
And I have to say I was shakenby that because that was a
deliberate act, as I found out,to kind of whitewash literally
that part of our history.
And I therefore became veryconflicted.
I continued to celebrate uh thegood things of this country,
(05:26):
and there are many, but alwaysunhappy, the more I found out
about history.
That's why history is soimportant, accurate, honest,
detailed history is essential.
Without that, you're nowhere.
Sarah (05:42):
Phil, may I be so bold in asking?
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Can you be bold?
I'm here to be bold, I'm I'mhere to enjoy myself.
Sarah (05:48):
Phil, how old were you when you went to your first
Invasion day or Survival dayrally?
Phil (05:55):
I reached a stage about five years ago where I couldn't
celebrate my country, which Idesperately wanted to do.
But I can't do it on that date.
And I think people out therewho might think this is changing
uh, you know, getting rid ofAustralia, it's not.
It's making Australia Daybetter because it's going to be
(06:15):
all inclusive.
Sarah- But getting back to yourquestion Which you've very
eloquently dodged so far.
Phil- No, I'm not dodging it atall.
About five years ago I startedmarching.
Yep.
Because the only thing I coulddo, being true to myself and my
beliefs, was to support theAboriginal people and the Tall
Australia Islanders people.
Laura (06:36):
It's really incredible that I get to share this space
with you because back in the daywhen I went to the marches,
there weren't really anynon-Indigenous people there.
There was just Aboriginalpeople there.
And then to hear from you,Phil, in you know, in your 80s
that you've made a decision tostart marching alongside First
Nation people, that'sincredible.
And it does show this shift.
It does show that more and moreAustralians are starting to
(06:58):
realise this, the true historyof this country, and they're
taking a stand with us as well.
Absolutely.
Phil (07:03):
Well, it's a passion.
I mean, the passion always was,always will be being chanted by
thousands of people marching.
Very, very powerful.
And the genuineness of it, thehurt that you feel, you know, no
one can celebrate if you walkedon a mars like that and you're
non-indigenous, can't feel theimpact of it.
Sarah (07:25):
So I think that's one of the things that I've been also
really keen to have thisconversation about today is that
we have two very differentpeople coming at this idea from
two very different experiences.
And I think it's reallyimportant that we start at the
beginning of how on earth we aresitting at this table today.
How did this conversationbegin?
What happened here?
How did we get here?
Um Yeah, how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I want to know.
Laura (07:48):
So we've been, um, as we mentioned before, you know, um,
Jan, you know, Australia Day issomething I've never celebrated,
and nor has my family orcommunity.
So when we started makingt-shirts at Clothing The Gaps,
um, one of the first messages weput on a t-shirt was not a date
to celebrate, and that was fiveyears ago.
And every, you know, prettymuch at the first of every new
(08:10):
year, we go into every new year,um, unfortunately, talking
about um, you know, uh massacresand dispossession and doing
like lots of truth telling witha not a date to celebrate
message on it on our on ourchest.
And we've been selling theseteas um to, you know, mob and to
non-Indigenous people who alsowant to go out in the world and
(08:33):
spark these conversations withtheir friends in their circles
to let those people, those lovedones around them, know where
they stand on this issue.
We decided to start a petitionlast year, uh, one year post the
referendum, building on thegoodwill of Australians who
voted yes.
And we got to around 70,000supporters so quickly.
(08:53):
You know, we have an incrediblecommunity of supporters at
Clothing the Gaps.
But one of the questions thatwe kept getting, especially by
media, was great, you've gotsupport for this idea, but
what's the alternative?
And it was something that wedidn't feel like we had the
answer to.
We had been campaigning that,look, what we do know is that
(09:14):
Jan 26th isn't a date tocelebrate.
And perhaps, you know, the thegovernment of the day, Albanese,
should consult further with thecommunity and figure that out
themselves.
But that wasn't landing withthe media, it wasn't landing
with the campaigner very much ata standstill.
And then we got an email fromPhil.
(09:35):
Ding ding! I was like, who'sthis random guy emailing?
Phil (09:40):
This old white stale male!
Laura (09:43):
I didn't know that at the time though.
Um, I didn't know that.
But the idea was sound, andSarah and I both looked at it
and thought, oh, long weekend inJanuary.
Look, it's still in January,doesn't feel too different.
It wasn't linked to anotherdate, it wasn't linked to
another colonial date.
It felt like it was worthexploring the idea.
(10:04):
So we jumped on a phone callfrom Phil, in which we've had
very a lot more since then.
Um, and we've also spent quitea bit of time flirting this idea
with other um Aboriginalpeople.
And basically anyone who'shanging out with me for more
than five minutes, I'm like, doyou mind if I run this idea past
you?
Um very much in conversationaround, you know, if not Jan 26
(10:26):
when?
And um I was I was drawn tothis idea uh and of and of
sharing it with others.
Sarah (10:32):
And Phil, why did you send us that email?
Why was reaching out toClothing The Gaps important to
you?
Phil (10:37):
Well, it's really important because we had uh put
out this proposal in July.
There'd been an article, we hadan opinion piece in the Herald
and the Age, and it goeselsewhere.
It was this idea of having along weekend, three days,
always.
It's not the present position,we'll come into that later, I
(10:59):
think.
But it was to have a longweekend um at the best time, you
know, to celebrate our nation,basically.
Best time in January.
And we did a lot of thought onthat, as you know.
We we looked at 30 years ofcalendars to see how it all
fitted in.
So I sent out a number ofemails to, but I found it very
(11:23):
hard to know which person tosend it to.
But I went on toyour petition on change.org.
Laura (11:29):
Oh petition.
Phil (11:31):
Petition.
And it was so good that I thenlooked up and saw who had done
the petition.
And there was, you know, uhHe's Clothing The Gaps, please.
Clothing The Gaps.
So I clicked on Clothing TheGaps and got onto one of the
best websites I've ever seen,frankly.
And there you were doing allthe things that I'd been
(11:53):
thinking about of workingtogether with people, working
with Aboriginal people and withmulticultural society, working
with everybody.
You were doing it.
You know, you're from W esternVictoria, country town
background, working withsomebody who's in a leading
(12:13):
member of the community, uh theAboriginal community, um, in
various fantastic campaigns,like the flag one, Aboriginal
Flag, and you're working onthings that give such a great
message (12:27):
t-shirts and other apparel and and you know, pins
and whatever.
Pins.
Where is it?
Anyway, it's there somewhere.
And you know, it's such anincredible, an incredible thing.
And when I went onto thatwebsite and saw what you were
doing, I thought, wow, aren'tthey good?
(12:47):
I should make I should reachout.
Sarah (12:49):
And I'm so glad you did, Phil.
And Laws, Phil is wearing oneof our Not A Date to Celebrate
pins today, and you're wearingthe Tee.
The campaign has been one ofthe earlier conversations that
we've been having atClothing The Gaps, as you
mentioned before.
Perhaps you could just give usa bit of a summary about the
campaign and where we're up to.
Laura (13:06):
Like I said, the petition's been going for a year
now.
We're at about 74,000supporters.
We're aiming for 100,000 by Jan26, 2026.
But this work is a legacypiece.
Sarah touched on it before.
We might not be able to agreeon an alternative date that we
can celebrate Australia on.
But I think we can agree asAustralians that Jan 26, a date
(13:31):
that's been declared, you know,um, by, you know, our elder
William Cooper, as a day ofmourning back in 1938, you know,
it's over 80 years.
It feels disrespectful that ofall the days, we choose a day of
mourning for First Nationspeople to be the date that we
choose to celebrate Australiaon.
The campaign, Not a Date toCelebrate, is really about that.
(13:52):
It's about choosing to rethinkyour actions on Jan 26, um, to
be respectful of First Nationspeople and understand the truth
of this country.
The campaign up until thispoint really hasn't offered or
spoke about an alternative.
Um, it's really just gettingpeople, and lots of people are
there on this journey of justnot celebrating on Jan 26.
(14:15):
And we're seeing more and moreAustralians, and this is
actually a shame, but they'rechoosing not to acknowledge it
as a public holiday at all.
Everyone's a little bit awkwardaround this date now.
They might not be celebrating,they might be going to work,
they're treating it as businessas usual.
And I think for the government,um, you know, whilst they've
(14:36):
shown no commitment at all,which surprises me, or no
urgency to change the date atall, I think there's growing
community pressure.
I feel it.
You know, the fact Phil's goingto rallies now and he never has
before, and probably a lot morepeople that that you know are
turning up and going, no, thiswe we can't be celebrating this
(14:57):
country on this day.
And we want to find analternative that we can do that
on is a question that I thinkthe government has to grapple
with sooner rather than later.
Sarah (15:08):
One of the things that blows my mind is that it's
actually been eight years sincethe Triple J Hottest 100
countdown was on, was on January26th.
And there was about two yearsof consultation that happened
prior to that.
So for a good 10 years insocial society, it's been very
clear, um, obviously a lotlonger within First Nations
community, as Laws said, from1938.
(15:29):
It's been declared a Day ofMourning.
But this shift in publicperception really, really has
grown and is becoming more andmore widespread.
And Phil, reflecting on whatyou spoke to before about your
own learning journey that you'vebeen on, what's one thing that
you wish more Australiansunderstood about January 26?
Phil (15:48):
Well, I think um for people who are non-Indigenous,
uh 26 is is not was appropriatewhen it was kind of fought by
the people in the colony.
It was really a kind of prisoncamp, I suppose.
They had a celebration ofFoundation Day.
(16:08):
Because to them, they'ddiscovered a new country, hadn't
they?
There's kind of a few peoplerunning around but who were
there, but but they they werethe discoverers.
We have discovered a new land.
And and so the foundation ofBritish colony in Australia was
something to be celebrated fromtheir perspective.
And so it was Foundation Day.
(16:31):
But even then, it kind ofdidn't really get a lot of yeah.
There's no country in theworld, I think, as you've said
before, I think maybe on yourwebsite, but there's no country
in the world that celebrates asit's National Day the day of the
start of colonization.
(16:52):
There's quite a few who, whenthey break away from it, but no
one puts their hand up and says,you know, oh, we we want to
celebrate uh when we took aplace over, you know, from other
people and pushed them away andthey didn't obey our laws,
which they have to obey now, wekill 'em.
And so, I mean, it's it's it'sit's part of our history.
(17:15):
But we're now, you know, in2025, about in 2026, and we've
got to make up our minds whetherwe're gonna be lassoed by
history to a date that isclearly not appropriate anymore.
But the concept of celebrationand reflection, respectfully
(17:39):
done, is what we want to do, andwe can't do it on that date.
Sarah (17:44):
Let's talk about the Australia Long Weekend idea, the
idea that brought us to thistable, essentially.
Laura, before Phil takes usthrough the details, when you
first heard about this idea whenPhil discovered us on
change.org and popped throughthat email, what was your
initial reaction?
Laura (18:02):
I thought it was a potentially a good alternative,
especially because it wasn'tlinked to a date.
I think there were so manyother dates presented, like May
8th, May Federation Day thatjust didn't make sense because
we already have New Year's Day.
And unfortunately, some ofthose dates that were
(18:23):
significant for First Nationspeople, whether it was around
the refer referendum that gaveAboriginal people the vote or,
you know, when we had theapology, they just didn't feel,
especially with the outcome, theno outcome of the referendum,
that there was any chance orhope that we're going to get a
date that was uh meaningful forthe First Nations community.
(18:46):
So this idea that it wasn't adate, it was just a rolling long
weekend in January, sort ofruled out that um debate that
would have to have when we hadto get so many people to agree
on the meaning behind the date.
It's just a day, it's just along weekend in January.
So that felt like it was uh,you know, an alternative that
(19:09):
wasn't gonna disrupt or um causea whole lot of debate.
It also provided anopportunity, I thought, for a
three-day conversation, afestival where First Nations
people were part of it, truthtelling was part of it.
You know, it wasn't just acelebration, but it was an
opportunity to reflect, to makeit a day that, yeah, was a
(19:33):
weekend, a three-day event thatwas inclusive, absolutely, of
First Nations people, because soit should be, because our
history just didn't start 200years ago.
So yeah, that was what whatdrew it to me.
And uh and the and the flipside of that was um by moving
the date of Australia Day, um,was that we were able to
(19:54):
quarantine in many ways Jan 26as a day of mourning.
And Increase this culturalsafety for First Nations people.
So on Jan 26th, it can be thata day of mourning where we don't
have a barbecue or people sellalso celebrating colonisation on
that date.
I yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Sarah (20:13):
I think the the possibilities of it being um
taken up by a really largenumber of people, it was very
attractive.
So, Phil, when we talk aboutthe Australia Long Weekend idea,
what actually is it?
When would it be?
Tell us the details.
Phil (20:30):
Well, can I just get back before I do that?
Yeah.
To um to an issue about change.
And it's whether it'sgovernment policy or our life or
our values or anything else.
And it's the same with changingthe date of Australia Day.
To us, this at this table wherewe are, it makes no sense for
(20:50):
the 26 for the reasons we'vesaid.
But for other people, um,without that knowledge and
without that background, they,you know, it's but it's a date
that's there.
You know, it it's been there inactual facts specifically only
since 1994.
Um, but but um but back in in1946 or 47, the states, New
(21:15):
South Wales certainly, but otherstates somewhat reluctantly,
but agreed on the 26th ofJanuary, but celebrated it on
the next nearest Monday if itfell during the week.
So that's we we had this longholiday in January, and then it
fixated on one day, which was abad mistake, but it fixated on
(21:38):
one day all the time.
Um but you don't change thingsand you shouldn't change things,
and I believe this strongly,and government policies, unless
there is a very good alternativeof merit that can garner wide
support in a democracy, cangarner wide support, capable of
(22:01):
having wide support.
And so we set ourselves, that'sJames Woods and myself, a high
bar.
When is the best time tocelebrate and reflect?
Not just celebration, andreflect.
What is the best time of theyear?
And we could debate it.
I like go skiing, or you know,it should be in winter time, it
(22:22):
should be in summer.
But cutting down after a longdiscussion, the consensus was
the best time is our long summerholiday break where you can be
with family and friends.
I got out a calendar personallyand spent hours just going
through the calendar, seeingwhat would happen if it was the
(22:44):
third long weekend.
Sarah (22:46):
So the third Monday in January.
Phil (22:48):
Third Monday in January.
And see what can happens there,and I won't rabbit on too much
about it because I could, butwhat happens if it's the third
Monday is that it means thatbecause of the calendar, that
will uh come between the 15thand the 21st of January.
Sarah (23:11):
Which feels quite early in January, doesn't it?
Phil (23:13):
Well, it does, but when it's on the 15th, remember it's
a Monday.
So the long weekend would thenbe 13, 14, 15.
And though you think third, youknow, oh, the third long
weekend, you're thinking in yourmind two-thirds of the way
through the month, but you'renot because of the way the
calendar starts.
And so then we looked at thesecond last long weekend, which
(23:38):
means that it will the last timein the calendar it varies to is
the 31st.
Bang, 31st.
So it goes back, then thesecond last Monday goes back to
the 24th.
And that's the last it can everbe.
It can't go beyond that.
So that's the last.
Yeah.
And then it swings between overa five or six year period,
(24:02):
changing one day, sometimesjumping to the 18th.
And the sweet spot, the medianpart of 18 to 24 is 21.
Three weeks.
Three weeks is the mean spot.
Sarah (24:17):
Because you're right, the 13th of January feels like for
most of us, you've only reallyjust gotten back into the swing
of going back to work.
My alarms finally started goingoff at the right time, and then
you'd have a long weekendagain.
Whereas two-thirds of the waythrough, you're right, you sort
of you've gotten back over intowork land and you're probably
ready for another little,another little break.
I'm so glad that you did thecalendar maths for us because
(24:38):
there is no way.
I've got you with me, I canbring it, bring out all these
lists through.
Trust you, Phil.
Trust you, Phil.
I have no doubt that you havewell and truly delved into that.
And I'm so glad that um you'vechosen to do that math for us.
Laws, can I ask you?
When we think about changingthe date of Australia Day to
(24:58):
make it the Australia LongWeekend, you know, some people
would say that moving the date'sjust symbolic, and others say
it's a, you know, a reallymeaningful first step forward in
deeper truth-telling andjustice.
Does changing the date actuallysolve anything?
Do you think?
What does this mean?
Laura (25:16):
For someone who's spent many years advocating to free
the Aboriginal flag fromcopyright, symbolism matters.
It really does.
It's it's really hard to tacklethe bigger issues that this
country has to reckon with withFirst Nations people.
One of them being um, you know,locking up our kids so early,
(25:37):
you know, amongst other issuesthat this country has to has to
deal with.
And we just have to look at howwe're going backwards with our
closing the gap statistics tosee that.
So this country has a lot ofwork to do.
But this issue that we've beentalking about for as long as I
can remember is administrative.
(25:58):
We don't even need to vote onit.
Like the government can do thiswith a flick of the pen.
Now, if we can't do this, if wecan't listen to First Nations
people's voices who've beenmarching the streets for, you
know, oh, 80 odd years, exactly,then how can we make more uh
(26:25):
meaningful change?
You know, some people say weare putting so much effort, you
know, so many people putting somuch effort in around uh, you
know, having these conversationsaround change the date.
Uh, First Nations people, it'suh such a hard day.
The amount of racism that weface on that day, how divisive
this day is for a country, thatcan be resolved.
(26:48):
You know, it may seem like it'ssymbolism, but there's also a
lot of hurt and racism felt onthis day because we simply
choose, well, the government canchange this, but they choose to
celebrate Australia Day on theday the country was invaded or
colonised.
Sarah (27:06):
If the government can't do this, then what right really
do they have to tackle anythingelse as well?
And when you talk to othernon-Indigenous people and you
share this Australia LongWeekend idea with them, what's
the most common reaction thatnon-Indigenous people that you
speak to have?
Phil (27:23):
Well, it it there are conservative people, quite what
you know, rightly so.
Um conservation means that youare conserving, should mean that
anyway.
Um so there will be people, ohPhil, look, don't want to hear.
Um love Australia today,important.
I love British institutions,etc., and the rule of law and
(27:45):
all that.
I don't want to lose it.
To which I say, you're notgonna lose it.
I believe in all those thingstoo.
But let's pick a time when wecan all celebrate those things
and our incredible 65,000 yearsof history and culture and
language and Aboriginal law andknowledge of the land far beyond
(28:12):
ownership of property, youknow, uh, goes back to real
connection with country.
Sarah (28:20):
We should be so much prouder of the incredible
Aboriginal culture, TorresIslander culture, history
stories that we have in thiscountry rather than being
weirdly awkward and ashamed andpushing it behind a curtain.
And that's the opportunity Isee in the Australia Long
Weekend is the opportunity forus to grow up, I think, as a
country, and to really thinkabout what does it mean in 2025
(28:43):
to reflect, to celebrate, to begrateful for this place that
that we call home.
Phil, it sounds like you'retelling me that when you speak
to most non-Aboriginal peopleabout this as well, is that they
just want a long weekend in Janand that that seems pretty,
pretty reasonable.
And so, Laws, when we thinkabout what if we were to get an
Australian long weekend up andit would to be successful in in
(29:06):
shifting away from a nationalday of celebration on the 26th
of January, in your view, whatwould that then free up Jan 26
to actually be?
What could it look like?
Laura (29:20):
The first word that comes to mind is that will be a
relief, you know, that we thatwe could stop um protesting on
our day of mourning, that wecould mark the 26th on our
calendar as a day of mourning,and that we can reflect on the
true history of this country andwhat we've lost.
And so the Jan 26th is stillgonna be a significant day.
(29:42):
It's just not gonna be a daywhere we're competing with other
people who are choosing tocelebrate on that day too.
So we get to take back Jan26th, actually.
Um so I'm looking forward tothat.
I'm looking forward to notstarting the year to which I've
experienced my whole lifetalking about Jan 26.
Phil (30:02):
Dreading it.
Laura (30:03):
Dreading it.
Just like here it goes again.
You know, it's I think I'mtired of it.
I'm sick of talking about it,and I think lots of people would
agree, like we're sick of it.
Phil (30:12):
Well, that's the end of the podcast.
Done.
Laura (30:14):
We're done, we're over of it.
I think we're all over it.
Like we're all over it.
Um, you know, this is a we talkabout a small but significant
shift.
It will be a new thing for me,I think for lots of other First
Nations people to actually havean Australia Day on a long
weekend or Australia longweekend where it's not linked to
(30:36):
protest.
So what does celebrating thiscountry look like for us?
What are those?
I'm looking forward to whatother conversations I can have
on this long weekend if it's notabout, you know, talking about
not celebrating colonization.
What are those otherconversations I think we should
(30:58):
be focusing on during the longweekend that all Australians
should be aware of as well, tomove First Nations people
forward?
Like it's an opportunity tohave new conversations and do
things differently.
Sarah (31:09):
Um and it's I just wholeheartedly believe that um
it's it's overdue.
I really enjoy that reflectionabout new conversations about a
national identity and how we weshift what that is and and
upgrade it for what 2025 reallylooks like.
And Phil, how has this work foryou changed your perspective of
(31:32):
celebrating, I guess, what ournational identity is?
What do you think it could be?
Phil (31:37):
So First Nations would be at the absolute beginning and
center of the long weekend,Australia Long Weekend.
And then what you'd be doing iscombining culture, uh
Aboriginal culture, culture fromnew Australians, uh British
(31:58):
culture, etc., over the courseof the weekend.
Uh you'd have some people outthere watching the cricket test
match on the Sunday, maybe andMonday, or whatever, or the
tennis, uh Wimbledon, uh notWimbledon, but the tennis,
Australian Open.
Sarah (32:13):
Australian Open, yes.
Phil (32:16):
Anyway, uh the Australian Open.
You'd have people who just wantto use those days as they do
now to catch up with friends andfamily, other people who just
want to sit by the seaside andhave their emotional, their
brain washed by the sea and andthe sun and just relax for three
(32:36):
days.
The beauty of it would be thateverybody could do their own
thing or combine with others andceremonies, cultural or
whatever, knowing that everybodyelse is happy for that to take
place.
That is such a powerful force.
Sarah (32:56):
How does that sound to you?
Laura (32:57):
Uh, incredible.
Um, all the activities that youcould do on that day.
Um three days.
Three days.
It's gonna take three days.
Three days to all thoseactivities.
But it makes me reflect on whatwe currently have, and that's a
whole lot of division.
If it feels like we have acollective of First Nations
flags, and then we have theAustralian flag over over over
(33:19):
there.
Australian Day celebrations arehave happening over there, and
you know, survival day events orinvasion day events are
happening over here.
So we're very much divided.
You're on one camp or theother.
What if we're able to uniteover three days where it wasn't
one or the other that we're ableto come together?
And that sounds different.
(33:41):
It's a different totally adifferent experience, but
something I think um it soundsbetter than what we've got.
Sounds like an improvement.
It sounds like something Iwould want my kids and grandkids
to be part of.
Um, you know, it's doesn't feelsafe on Jan 26 as it as it
(34:03):
currently is.
It's not safe.
This feels like a safer a saferway forward.
And to continue to reinventwhat these three, you know,
these three days look like, um,I think it's a real opportunity
to craft it to what we wantwhere First Nations feel part of
it.
Like it actually respects if wedo it right, 65,000 years.
Sarah (34:26):
And there are so many opportunities in this idea,
which I think is absolutely oneof the main reasons why we
thought it it had merit, as yousay, Phil.
Laws, if you could ask thegovernment or employers or the
media one thing about this ideaor about the Not A Date to
Celebrate campaign, what wouldit be?
Laura (34:43):
What would I ask them?
Uh probably it would be asimple question, why not?
What's I would be hard pressed.
Tell me why you think thisisn't a better idea than what we
currently have.
And I would ask, how long?
How much longer?
(35:05):
And how can you support us?
How are you using yourprivilege, your power, your
platform to raise awareness ofthis?
Because it's going to takecommunity action, it's going to
take even more communitysupport.
So the government cannot ignoreit anymore.
(35:25):
If they're not going to makethis come to this decision
themselves, it's pretty sound,reasonable, common sense
solution.
That's going to solve lots ofproblems for them, um,
themselves, then we need morepeople.
We need people power.
Sarah (35:36):
And we've seen people power, we've seen businesses get
on board this campaign as well.
Um, I couldn't agree more.
It's time.
It really is.
Phil, for non othernon-Indigenous people who are
listening to our podcast today,what advice would you give to
allies who want to support thismovement, but they're not sure
where to start?
Phil (35:57):
Well, I think um you've got to realize to make change,
you can stand up, one person canmake change.
It's been shown.
But it's really peoplecombining uh in partnerships,
like your in your worksituation.
I'm so blown away by that.
It's by people coming togetherand feel that you've got the
(36:21):
power to do something.
And the if you go onto ourwebsite, for example, uh
Australia Longweekend.com.au,there's a supporters page.
And those supporters aren'tsupporting me or supporting
James or supporting AustraliaLong Weekend Group or something.
They're supporting an idea.
(36:42):
This is an idea.
And once you release an idea,if it has memory, the idea will
never go away.
You know, a campaign can goaway.
An idea can never go away.
So what's been released is anidea.
And that idea is now out there.
It's not going to ever go away.
It's now been in the publicdomain.
(37:03):
You've done a blog about it.
We've written articles, been inthe papers, etc.
So it's not going away.
And I would ask people tosupport it, to spread the word,
and to feel they have the powerof action.
But there are rules.
The rules are you must berespectful, you must be accurate
(37:27):
and honest in what you say, andyou must treat people well.
Sarah (37:30):
Oh, Phil, I love these rules.
They sound very normal.
Vote one, Phil.
Phil and Laura, to close usout, I've got one last question
for us.
Phil, I'm going to start withyou.
What's one thing that you wouldlike our listeners to sit with
after this conversation, inaddition to your three rules for
life, if you will?
Phil (37:51):
Well, if they feel this has merit and if they want to
exhibit their best selves, thenthey've got to realise that if
they believe in things like afair go, this country's about a
fair go, justice, etc.
You must give justice to FirstNations people.
(38:13):
You can't celebrate on a day,frankly, of pain and hurt to
others.
I can't do it anymore.
And so you've got to then moveto a solution.
And this is a very goodsolution.
It's not just uh this is a kindof solution and we'll move off
(38:35):
to something else.
In my view, and I'm biased, uhI'm biased on it.
My view, it is the solution toit, I have to say, because it's
the best time of the year tocelebrate.
It's also the best time toreflect when you're with family
and friends.
And so I just imploreeverybody, including government
(38:57):
and the media, and the wholecitizens and business, get
behind these campaigns.
Let's change the daterespectfully in dialogue, and
let's move to the second lastMonday in January.
Sarah (39:12):
Laws, what about you?
What's one thing you'd like ourlisteners to sit with?
Great close, Phil. We can tell you're a barrister. Um,I think for First Nations
people, this Jan 26th has alwayspresented an issue and we've
been protesting as a result.
But now this is an issue forall Australians.
This is an issue for everyonebecause, like I said earlier,
(39:36):
people aren't comfortablecelebrating on this date.
And because of that, um, I feellike we can actually make
change because it's impacting onall Australians.
You know, we look at, you know,we've got a shop in Brunswick
and we have lots of people comein who are doing their
citizenship on that day.
And they're coming in to buy an'always was, always will be'
outfit, wishing that theircitizenship ceremony wasn't on
(40:00):
Jan 26 too.
And it's unfortunate, but it'soften until an issue impacts on
everyone, not just First Nationspeople, that Australians
actually stand up and say, Oh,I'm going to do something about
this as well.
And I certainly think that thisJan 26 Australia Day divisive
(40:20):
date is impacting on all of us.
And for that reason, I think weare going to get that support
and we're eventually going toget change.
I'm not hopeless about this.
I'm hopeful.
And this idea that we'vediscussed today is the best idea
to point that I've that I'veheard and that we've discussed.
(40:43):
So I guess I want to leavepeople with hope.
And I want to leave people withagency to, you know, educate
themselves.
Like Phil's a great example ofsomeone who's done that.
And to float these ideas andhave them with those loved ones
around you.
Absolutely. Phil, I really enjoyed your point about
(41:04):
an idea never goes away.
I love that.
And there is hope.
Things can be better.
This country deserves better.
First Nations community deservebetter.
And we deserve to write abetter story for our future
together.
And I think when we think aboutthe amount of momentum that
real change really does take,and as you said, Laws, it
affects all people from allwalks of life now.
This conversation today is areally good example of that of
(41:26):
Phil being in your early 80s.
Yes.
Don't correct me now.
Phil (41:33):
It's moving away from my early 80s as the minutes go by.
Sarah (41:37):
Yes, Phil.
And uh and and Laws, you know,as a as Gunditjmara woman and a
community leader in the advocacywork that you've done.
When we're coming togethertoday to have this conversation,
I think it really does speak tothe fact that we have reached a
really, really strong point inthis conversation and it has to
change.
So thank you both so much forbeing with us today and to our
(41:59):
listeners.
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Phil, for flyingdown from Sydney.
So together, I think let's stayopen and stay curious and keep
having those conversations, keepfloating those ideas, and let's
keep working together towardssomething better than where we
are now.
We're looking for progress overperfection because this is how
change begins.
So we've linked the change.orgpetition in the show notes for
(42:20):
you, along with a bunch of otherresources and links to learn
more about how to get involved.
So until next time, it's beenCommunity Conversations by
Clothing The Gaps.
We'll see you soon.
If we can't listen to First Nations people's voices
who've been marching thestreets, then how can we make
more meaningful change?
Phil (00:10):
We've got to make up our minds whether we're going to be
lassoed by history to a datethat is clearly not appropriate
anymore.
Laura (00:19):
It also provided an opportunity, I thought, for a
three-day conversation, afestival where First Nations
people were part of it.
Phil (00:28):
You can't celebrate on a day, frankly, of pain and hurt
to others.
Sarah (00:35):
Welcome to Community Conversations.
I'm Sarah Sherry, co-founderand deputy CEO at
Clothing The Gaps.
Today we are recording on thelands of the Kulin Nations.
And it's so important in thisconversation about advocacy and
change to acknowledge the Elderswho have forged this path of
resistance for generationsbefore us.
This work really is built onthe shoulders of giants.
(00:57):
As a non-Indigenous woman, I'mreally grateful to be part of
this particular conversationbecause we're talking about a
date that continues to divideour nation, January 26.
For some, it's called AustraliaDay.
For many First Peoples,however, it's known as Invasion
Day, Survival Day, or a Day ofMourning.
And in this episode, we'reunpacking why January 26th is
(01:20):
not a date to celebrate andexploring the question that we
get asked constantly in thiscampaign.
But if not January 26, thenwhen?
So we're diving into this inconversation with two incredible
people.
Laura Thompson, who is aGunditjmara woman and CEO and
co-founder of Clothing The Gaps.
Now, Laws, you've had your fairshare of advocacy experience
(01:43):
over your lifetime, butespecially in leading the Free
The Flag campaign, which wassuccessful in changing two out
of the three licensingagreements over the Aboriginal
flag to see the flag back in thepublic domain.
Now you've hosted a communityconversations episode, but I'm
stoked to have you as a guesttoday.
Welcome, Laws.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Thank you.
Sarah (02:01):
And Phil, Phil Jenkyn.
Now, Phil is the co-convenerand supporter of the Australia
Long Weekend idea.
And Phil has over 30 years ofexperience under his belt as a
barrister in Sydney,specialising in common law.
Now, Phil, you describeyourself as a community activist
and you've played key roles inyour local community in
(02:21):
resisting council amalgamations,preserving heritage sites, and
protecting headlands, which sawyou receive your OAM
recognition.
Congratulations, Phil.
And thank you both for beinghere.
I'm really looking forward todiscussing this today.
So to start us off when wethink about January 26th, I'd
really love to understand wherethe two of you are coming from
(02:42):
in this idea.
So Laws, what has yourexperience of January 26th
looked like over your lifetime?
Laura (02:49):
It's a question that I haven't really reflected on
before before because it, youknow, in some ways it always has
been a day that we've protestedand marched on the street.
So my only memory of, you know,Australia Day, which is not
what we what we call Jan 26, itwas invasion day, um, was going
(03:11):
to rallies and listening tomusic at the Survival Day
concert.
Um, it really was a day that wegot out on the streets, you
know, wore our um Aboriginalclothing with pride.
And I was with community, I waswith family, I was with other
Aboriginal people who all feltthe same way about the day.
(03:32):
So it was a day that broughtAboriginal people together in
unity.
And we made a statement that,you know, this this isn't a day
to celebrate, but we also cometogether and celebrated our
survival.
Sarah (03:45):
And it sounds like you've been celebrating that
resistance for as long as youcan remember, really.
Laura (03:50):
Pretty much.
And then my kids come on thatjourney as well as toddlers, and
it was always so hot.
Like January 26th is so hot,they'd be like, you know, we're
walking down, you know, BourkeStreet, sweating and you know,
dying around, and we could beanywhere else, but we always
chose to uh make a stand on thatday and you know, let the
community know that you knowwe're here and um it's not okay
(04:13):
that we're celebrating on thisday.
Sarah (04:15):
And Phil, what about you?
What's what's been yourrelationship with Jan 26 over
your lifetime?
Phil (04:20):
Well, it's really interesting what you say because
you're speaking as anIndigenous person.
And my background is Britishdescent.
And I wasn't taught, we weren'ttaught history, Australian
history in any real proper wayuh at school.
Um, you know, a few explorersdiscovering everything in this
(04:42):
new land.
What a load of nonsense thatis.
And so um it wasn't until Ikind of even after I studied
history at university, um, thatHenry Reynolds in reading books
did I find out what had reallyhappened in the early part and
continuing all the way through.
(05:04):
And I have to say I was shakenby that because that was a
deliberate act, as I found out,to kind of whitewash literally
that part of our history.
And I therefore became veryconflicted.
I continued to celebrate uh thegood things of this country,
(05:26):
and there are many, but alwaysunhappy, the more I found out
about history.
That's why history is soimportant, accurate, honest,
detailed history is essential.
Without that, you're nowhere.
Sarah (05:42):
Phil, may I be so bold in asking?
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Can you be bold?
I'm here to be bold, I'm I'mhere to enjoy myself.
Sarah (05:48):
Phil, how old were you when you went to your first
Invasion day or Survival dayrally?
Phil (05:55):
I reached a stage about five years ago where I couldn't
celebrate my country, which Idesperately wanted to do.
But I can't do it on that date.
And I think people out therewho might think this is changing
uh, you know, getting rid ofAustralia, it's not.
It's making Australia Daybetter because it's going to be
(06:15):
all inclusive.
Sarah- But getting back to yourquestion Which you've very
eloquently dodged so far.
Phil- No, I'm not dodging it atall.
About five years ago I startedmarching.
Yep.
Because the only thing I coulddo, being true to myself and my
beliefs, was to support theAboriginal people and the Tall
Australia Islanders people.
Laura (06:36):
It's really incredible that I get to share this space
with you because back in the daywhen I went to the marches,
there weren't really anynon-Indigenous people there.
There was just Aboriginalpeople there.
And then to hear from you,Phil, in you know, in your 80s
that you've made a decision tostart marching alongside First
Nation people, that'sincredible.
And it does show this shift.
It does show that more and moreAustralians are starting to
(06:58):
realise this, the true historyof this country, and they're
taking a stand with us as well.
Absolutely.
Phil (07:03):
Well, it's a passion.
I mean, the passion always was,always will be being chanted by
thousands of people marching.
Very, very powerful.
And the genuineness of it, thehurt that you feel, you know, no
one can celebrate if you walkedon a mars like that and you're
non-indigenous, can't feel theimpact of it.
Sarah (07:25):
So I think that's one of the things that I've been also
really keen to have thisconversation about today is that
we have two very differentpeople coming at this idea from
two very different experiences.
And I think it's reallyimportant that we start at the
beginning of how on earth we aresitting at this table today.
How did this conversationbegin?
What happened here?
How did we get here?
Um Yeah, how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I want to know.
Laura (07:48):
So we've been, um, as we mentioned before, you know, um,
Jan, you know, Australia Day issomething I've never celebrated,
and nor has my family orcommunity.
So when we started makingt-shirts at Clothing The Gaps,
um, one of the first messages weput on a t-shirt was not a date
to celebrate, and that was fiveyears ago.
And every, you know, prettymuch at the first of every new
(08:10):
year, we go into every new year,um, unfortunately, talking
about um, you know, uh massacresand dispossession and doing
like lots of truth telling witha not a date to celebrate
message on it on our on ourchest.
And we've been selling theseteas um to, you know, mob and to
non-Indigenous people who alsowant to go out in the world and
(08:33):
spark these conversations withtheir friends in their circles
to let those people, those lovedones around them, know where
they stand on this issue.
We decided to start a petitionlast year, uh, one year post the
referendum, building on thegoodwill of Australians who
voted yes.
And we got to around 70,000supporters so quickly.
(08:53):
You know, we have an incrediblecommunity of supporters at
Clothing the Gaps.
But one of the questions thatwe kept getting, especially by
media, was great, you've gotsupport for this idea, but
what's the alternative?
And it was something that wedidn't feel like we had the
answer to.
We had been campaigning that,look, what we do know is that
(09:14):
Jan 26th isn't a date tocelebrate.
And perhaps, you know, the thegovernment of the day, Albanese,
should consult further with thecommunity and figure that out
themselves.
But that wasn't landing withthe media, it wasn't landing
with the campaigner very much ata standstill.
And then we got an email fromPhil.
(09:35):
Ding ding! I was like, who'sthis random guy emailing?
Phil (09:40):
This old white stale male!
Laura (09:43):
I didn't know that at the time though.
Um, I didn't know that.
But the idea was sound, andSarah and I both looked at it
and thought, oh, long weekend inJanuary.
Look, it's still in January,doesn't feel too different.
It wasn't linked to anotherdate, it wasn't linked to
another colonial date.
It felt like it was worthexploring the idea.
(10:04):
So we jumped on a phone callfrom Phil, in which we've had
very a lot more since then.
Um, and we've also spent quitea bit of time flirting this idea
with other um Aboriginalpeople.
And basically anyone who'shanging out with me for more
than five minutes, I'm like, doyou mind if I run this idea past
you?
Um very much in conversationaround, you know, if not Jan 26
(10:26):
when?
And um I was I was drawn tothis idea uh and of and of
sharing it with others.
Sarah (10:32):
And Phil, why did you send us that email?
Why was reaching out toClothing The Gaps important to
you?
Phil (10:37):
Well, it's really important because we had uh put
out this proposal in July.
There'd been an article, we hadan opinion piece in the Herald
and the Age, and it goeselsewhere.
It was this idea of having along weekend, three days,
always.
It's not the present position,we'll come into that later, I
(10:59):
think.
But it was to have a longweekend um at the best time, you
know, to celebrate our nation,basically.
Best time in January.
And we did a lot of thought onthat, as you know.
We we looked at 30 years ofcalendars to see how it all
fitted in.
So I sent out a number ofemails to, but I found it very
(11:23):
hard to know which person tosend it to.
But I went on toyour petition on change.org.
Laura (11:29):
Oh petition.
Phil (11:31):
Petition.
And it was so good that I thenlooked up and saw who had done
the petition.
And there was, you know, uhHe's Clothing The Gaps, please.
Clothing The Gaps.
So I clicked on Clothing TheGaps and got onto one of the
best websites I've ever seen,frankly.
And there you were doing allthe things that I'd been
(11:53):
thinking about of workingtogether with people, working
with Aboriginal people and withmulticultural society, working
with everybody.
You were doing it.
You know, you're from W esternVictoria, country town
background, working withsomebody who's in a leading
(12:13):
member of the community, uh theAboriginal community, um, in
various fantastic campaigns,like the flag one, Aboriginal
Flag, and you're working onthings that give such a great
message (12:27):
t-shirts and other apparel and and you know, pins
and whatever.
Pins.
Where is it?
Anyway, it's there somewhere.
And you know, it's such anincredible, an incredible thing.
And when I went onto thatwebsite and saw what you were
doing, I thought, wow, aren'tthey good?
(12:47):
I should make I should reachout.
Sarah (12:49):
And I'm so glad you did, Phil.
And Laws, Phil is wearing oneof our Not A Date to Celebrate
pins today, and you're wearingthe Tee.
The campaign has been one ofthe earlier conversations that
we've been having atClothing The Gaps, as you
mentioned before.
Perhaps you could just give usa bit of a summary about the
campaign and where we're up to.
Laura (13:06):
Like I said, the petition's been going for a year
now.
We're at about 74,000supporters.
We're aiming for 100,000 by Jan26, 2026.
But this work is a legacypiece.
Sarah touched on it before.
We might not be able to agreeon an alternative date that we
can celebrate Australia on.
But I think we can agree asAustralians that Jan 26, a date
(13:31):
that's been declared, you know,um, by, you know, our elder
William Cooper, as a day ofmourning back in 1938, you know,
it's over 80 years.
It feels disrespectful that ofall the days, we choose a day of
mourning for First Nationspeople to be the date that we
choose to celebrate Australiaon.
The campaign, Not a Date toCelebrate, is really about that.
(13:52):
It's about choosing to rethinkyour actions on Jan 26, um, to
be respectful of First Nationspeople and understand the truth
of this country.
The campaign up until thispoint really hasn't offered or
spoke about an alternative.
Um, it's really just gettingpeople, and lots of people are
there on this journey of justnot celebrating on Jan 26.
(14:15):
And we're seeing more and moreAustralians, and this is
actually a shame, but they'rechoosing not to acknowledge it
as a public holiday at all.
Everyone's a little bit awkwardaround this date now.
They might not be celebrating,they might be going to work,
they're treating it as businessas usual.
And I think for the government,um, you know, whilst they've
(14:36):
shown no commitment at all,which surprises me, or no
urgency to change the date atall, I think there's growing
community pressure.
I feel it.
You know, the fact Phil's goingto rallies now and he never has
before, and probably a lot morepeople that that you know are
turning up and going, no, thiswe we can't be celebrating this
(14:57):
country on this day.
And we want to find analternative that we can do that
on is a question that I thinkthe government has to grapple
with sooner rather than later.
Sarah (15:08):
One of the things that blows my mind is that it's
actually been eight years sincethe Triple J Hottest 100
countdown was on, was on January26th.
And there was about two yearsof consultation that happened
prior to that.
So for a good 10 years insocial society, it's been very
clear, um, obviously a lotlonger within First Nations
community, as Laws said, from1938.
(15:29):
It's been declared a Day ofMourning.
But this shift in publicperception really, really has
grown and is becoming more andmore widespread.
And Phil, reflecting on whatyou spoke to before about your
own learning journey that you'vebeen on, what's one thing that
you wish more Australiansunderstood about January 26?
Phil (15:48):
Well, I think um for people who are non-Indigenous,
uh 26 is is not was appropriatewhen it was kind of fought by
the people in the colony.
It was really a kind of prisoncamp, I suppose.
They had a celebration ofFoundation Day.
(16:08):
Because to them, they'ddiscovered a new country, hadn't
they?
There's kind of a few peoplerunning around but who were
there, but but they they werethe discoverers.
We have discovered a new land.
And and so the foundation ofBritish colony in Australia was
something to be celebrated fromtheir perspective.
And so it was Foundation Day.
(16:31):
But even then, it kind ofdidn't really get a lot of yeah.
There's no country in theworld, I think, as you've said
before, I think maybe on yourwebsite, but there's no country
in the world that celebrates asit's National Day the day of the
start of colonization.
(16:52):
There's quite a few who, whenthey break away from it, but no
one puts their hand up and says,you know, oh, we we want to
celebrate uh when we took aplace over, you know, from other
people and pushed them away andthey didn't obey our laws,
which they have to obey now, wekill 'em.
And so, I mean, it's it's it'sit's part of our history.
(17:15):
But we're now, you know, in2025, about in 2026, and we've
got to make up our minds whetherwe're gonna be lassoed by
history to a date that isclearly not appropriate anymore.
But the concept of celebrationand reflection, respectfully
(17:39):
done, is what we want to do, andwe can't do it on that date.
Sarah (17:44):
Let's talk about the Australia Long Weekend idea, the
idea that brought us to thistable, essentially.
Laura, before Phil takes usthrough the details, when you
first heard about this idea whenPhil discovered us on
change.org and popped throughthat email, what was your
initial reaction?
Laura (18:02):
I thought it was a potentially a good alternative,
especially because it wasn'tlinked to a date.
I think there were so manyother dates presented, like May
8th, May Federation Day thatjust didn't make sense because
we already have New Year's Day.
And unfortunately, some ofthose dates that were
(18:23):
significant for First Nationspeople, whether it was around
the refer referendum that gaveAboriginal people the vote or,
you know, when we had theapology, they just didn't feel,
especially with the outcome, theno outcome of the referendum,
that there was any chance orhope that we're going to get a
date that was uh meaningful forthe First Nations community.
(18:46):
So this idea that it wasn't adate, it was just a rolling long
weekend in January, sort ofruled out that um debate that
would have to have when we hadto get so many people to agree
on the meaning behind the date.
It's just a day, it's just along weekend in January.
So that felt like it was uh,you know, an alternative that
(19:09):
wasn't gonna disrupt or um causea whole lot of debate.
It also provided anopportunity, I thought, for a
three-day conversation, afestival where First Nations
people were part of it, truthtelling was part of it.
You know, it wasn't just acelebration, but it was an
opportunity to reflect, to makeit a day that, yeah, was a
(19:33):
weekend, a three-day event thatwas inclusive, absolutely, of
First Nations people, because soit should be, because our
history just didn't start 200years ago.
So yeah, that was what whatdrew it to me.
And uh and the and the flipside of that was um by moving
the date of Australia Day, um,was that we were able to
(19:54):
quarantine in many ways Jan 26as a day of mourning.
And Increase this culturalsafety for First Nations people.
So on Jan 26th, it can be thata day of mourning where we don't
have a barbecue or people sellalso celebrating colonisation on
that date.
I yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Sarah (20:13):
I think the the possibilities of it being um
taken up by a really largenumber of people, it was very
attractive.
So, Phil, when we talk aboutthe Australia Long Weekend idea,
what actually is it?
When would it be?
Tell us the details.
Phil (20:30):
Well, can I just get back before I do that?
Yeah.
To um to an issue about change.
And it's whether it'sgovernment policy or our life or
our values or anything else.
And it's the same with changingthe date of Australia Day.
To us, this at this table wherewe are, it makes no sense for
(20:50):
the 26 for the reasons we'vesaid.
But for other people, um,without that knowledge and
without that background, they,you know, it's but it's a date
that's there.
You know, it it's been there inactual facts specifically only
since 1994.
Um, but but um but back in in1946 or 47, the states, New
(21:15):
South Wales certainly, but otherstates somewhat reluctantly,
but agreed on the 26th ofJanuary, but celebrated it on
the next nearest Monday if itfell during the week.
So that's we we had this longholiday in January, and then it
fixated on one day, which was abad mistake, but it fixated on
(21:38):
one day all the time.
Um but you don't change thingsand you shouldn't change things,
and I believe this strongly,and government policies, unless
there is a very good alternativeof merit that can garner wide
support in a democracy, cangarner wide support, capable of
(22:01):
having wide support.
And so we set ourselves, that'sJames Woods and myself, a high
bar.
When is the best time tocelebrate and reflect?
Not just celebration, andreflect.
What is the best time of theyear?
And we could debate it.
I like go skiing, or you know,it should be in winter time, it
(22:22):
should be in summer.
But cutting down after a longdiscussion, the consensus was
the best time is our long summerholiday break where you can be
with family and friends.
I got out a calendar personallyand spent hours just going
through the calendar, seeingwhat would happen if it was the
(22:44):
third long weekend.
Sarah (22:46):
So the third Monday in January.
Phil (22:48):
Third Monday in January.
And see what can happens there,and I won't rabbit on too much
about it because I could, butwhat happens if it's the third
Monday is that it means thatbecause of the calendar, that
will uh come between the 15thand the 21st of January.
Sarah (23:11):
Which feels quite early in January, doesn't it?
Phil (23:13):
Well, it does, but when it's on the 15th, remember it's
a Monday.
So the long weekend would thenbe 13, 14, 15.
And though you think third, youknow, oh, the third long
weekend, you're thinking in yourmind two-thirds of the way
through the month, but you'renot because of the way the
calendar starts.
And so then we looked at thesecond last long weekend, which
(23:38):
means that it will the last timein the calendar it varies to is
the 31st.
Bang, 31st.
So it goes back, then thesecond last Monday goes back to
the 24th.
And that's the last it can everbe.
It can't go beyond that.
So that's the last.
Yeah.
And then it swings between overa five or six year period,
(24:02):
changing one day, sometimesjumping to the 18th.
And the sweet spot, the medianpart of 18 to 24 is 21.
Three weeks.
Three weeks is the mean spot.
Sarah (24:17):
Because you're right, the 13th of January feels like for
most of us, you've only reallyjust gotten back into the swing
of going back to work.
My alarms finally started goingoff at the right time, and then
you'd have a long weekendagain.
Whereas two-thirds of the waythrough, you're right, you sort
of you've gotten back over intowork land and you're probably
ready for another little,another little break.
I'm so glad that you did thecalendar maths for us because
(24:38):
there is no way.
I've got you with me, I canbring it, bring out all these
lists through.
Trust you, Phil.
Trust you, Phil.
I have no doubt that you havewell and truly delved into that.
And I'm so glad that um you'vechosen to do that math for us.
Laws, can I ask you?
When we think about changingthe date of Australia Day to
(24:58):
make it the Australia LongWeekend, you know, some people
would say that moving the date'sjust symbolic, and others say
it's a, you know, a reallymeaningful first step forward in
deeper truth-telling andjustice.
Does changing the date actuallysolve anything?
Do you think?
What does this mean?
Laura (25:16):
For someone who's spent many years advocating to free
the Aboriginal flag fromcopyright, symbolism matters.
It really does.
It's it's really hard to tacklethe bigger issues that this
country has to reckon with withFirst Nations people.
One of them being um, you know,locking up our kids so early,
(25:37):
you know, amongst other issuesthat this country has to has to
deal with.
And we just have to look at howwe're going backwards with our
closing the gap statistics tosee that.
So this country has a lot ofwork to do.
But this issue that we've beentalking about for as long as I
can remember is administrative.
(25:58):
We don't even need to vote onit.
Like the government can do thiswith a flick of the pen.
Now, if we can't do this, if wecan't listen to First Nations
people's voices who've beenmarching the streets for, you
know, oh, 80 odd years, exactly,then how can we make more uh
(26:25):
meaningful change?
You know, some people say weare putting so much effort, you
know, so many people putting somuch effort in around uh, you
know, having these conversationsaround change the date.
Uh, First Nations people, it'suh such a hard day.
The amount of racism that weface on that day, how divisive
this day is for a country, thatcan be resolved.
(26:48):
You know, it may seem like it'ssymbolism, but there's also a
lot of hurt and racism felt onthis day because we simply
choose, well, the government canchange this, but they choose to
celebrate Australia Day on theday the country was invaded or
colonised.
Sarah (27:06):
If the government can't do this, then what right really
do they have to tackle anythingelse as well?
And when you talk to othernon-Indigenous people and you
share this Australia LongWeekend idea with them, what's
the most common reaction thatnon-Indigenous people that you
speak to have?
Phil (27:23):
Well, it it there are conservative people, quite what
you know, rightly so.
Um conservation means that youare conserving, should mean that
anyway.
Um so there will be people, ohPhil, look, don't want to hear.
Um love Australia today,important.
I love British institutions,etc., and the rule of law and
(27:45):
all that.
I don't want to lose it.
To which I say, you're notgonna lose it.
I believe in all those thingstoo.
But let's pick a time when wecan all celebrate those things
and our incredible 65,000 yearsof history and culture and
language and Aboriginal law andknowledge of the land far beyond
(28:12):
ownership of property, youknow, uh, goes back to real
connection with country.
Sarah (28:20):
We should be so much prouder of the incredible
Aboriginal culture, TorresIslander culture, history
stories that we have in thiscountry rather than being
weirdly awkward and ashamed andpushing it behind a curtain.
And that's the opportunity Isee in the Australia Long
Weekend is the opportunity forus to grow up, I think, as a
country, and to really thinkabout what does it mean in 2025
(28:43):
to reflect, to celebrate, to begrateful for this place that
that we call home.
Phil, it sounds like you'retelling me that when you speak
to most non-Aboriginal peopleabout this as well, is that they
just want a long weekend in Janand that that seems pretty,
pretty reasonable.
And so, Laws, when we thinkabout what if we were to get an
Australian long weekend up andit would to be successful in in
(29:06):
shifting away from a nationalday of celebration on the 26th
of January, in your view, whatwould that then free up Jan 26
to actually be?
What could it look like?
Laura (29:20):
The first word that comes to mind is that will be a
relief, you know, that we thatwe could stop um protesting on
our day of mourning, that wecould mark the 26th on our
calendar as a day of mourning,and that we can reflect on the
true history of this country andwhat we've lost.
And so the Jan 26th is stillgonna be a significant day.
(29:42):
It's just not gonna be a daywhere we're competing with other
people who are choosing tocelebrate on that day too.
So we get to take back Jan26th, actually.
Um so I'm looking forward tothat.
I'm looking forward to notstarting the year to which I've
experienced my whole lifetalking about Jan 26.
Phil (30:02):
Dreading it.
Laura (30:03):
Dreading it.
Just like here it goes again.
You know, it's I think I'mtired of it.
I'm sick of talking about it,and I think lots of people would
agree, like we're sick of it.
Phil (30:12):
Well, that's the end of the podcast.
Done.
Laura (30:14):
We're done, we're over of it.
I think we're all over it.
Like we're all over it.
Um, you know, this is a we talkabout a small but significant
shift.
It will be a new thing for me,I think for lots of other First
Nations people to actually havean Australia Day on a long
weekend or Australia longweekend where it's not linked to
(30:36):
protest.
So what does celebrating thiscountry look like for us?
What are those?
I'm looking forward to whatother conversations I can have
on this long weekend if it's notabout, you know, talking about
not celebrating colonization.
What are those otherconversations I think we should
(30:58):
be focusing on during the longweekend that all Australians
should be aware of as well, tomove First Nations people
forward?
Like it's an opportunity tohave new conversations and do
things differently.
Sarah (31:09):
Um and it's I just wholeheartedly believe that um
it's it's overdue.
I really enjoy that reflectionabout new conversations about a
national identity and how we weshift what that is and and
upgrade it for what 2025 reallylooks like.
And Phil, how has this work foryou changed your perspective of
(31:32):
celebrating, I guess, what ournational identity is?
What do you think it could be?
Phil (31:37):
So First Nations would be at the absolute beginning and
center of the long weekend,Australia Long Weekend.
And then what you'd be doing iscombining culture, uh
Aboriginal culture, culture fromnew Australians, uh British
(31:58):
culture, etc., over the courseof the weekend.
Uh you'd have some people outthere watching the cricket test
match on the Sunday, maybe andMonday, or whatever, or the
tennis, uh Wimbledon, uh notWimbledon, but the tennis,
Australian Open.
Sarah (32:13):
Australian Open, yes.
Phil (32:16):
Anyway, uh the Australian Open.
You'd have people who just wantto use those days as they do
now to catch up with friends andfamily, other people who just
want to sit by the seaside andhave their emotional, their
brain washed by the sea and andthe sun and just relax for three
(32:36):
days.
The beauty of it would be thateverybody could do their own
thing or combine with others andceremonies, cultural or
whatever, knowing that everybodyelse is happy for that to take
place.
That is such a powerful force.
Sarah (32:56):
How does that sound to you?
Laura (32:57):
Uh, incredible.
Um, all the activities that youcould do on that day.
Um three days.
Three days.
It's gonna take three days.
Three days to all thoseactivities.
But it makes me reflect on whatwe currently have, and that's a
whole lot of division.
If it feels like we have acollective of First Nations
flags, and then we have theAustralian flag over over over
(33:19):
there.
Australian Day celebrations arehave happening over there, and
you know, survival day events orinvasion day events are
happening over here.
So we're very much divided.
You're on one camp or theother.
What if we're able to uniteover three days where it wasn't
one or the other that we're ableto come together?
And that sounds different.
(33:41):
It's a different totally adifferent experience, but
something I think um it soundsbetter than what we've got.
Sounds like an improvement.
It sounds like something Iwould want my kids and grandkids
to be part of.
Um, you know, it's doesn't feelsafe on Jan 26 as it as it
(34:03):
currently is.
It's not safe.
This feels like a safer a saferway forward.
And to continue to reinventwhat these three, you know,
these three days look like, um,I think it's a real opportunity
to craft it to what we wantwhere First Nations feel part of
it.
Like it actually respects if wedo it right, 65,000 years.
Sarah (34:26):
And there are so many opportunities in this idea,
which I think is absolutely oneof the main reasons why we
thought it it had merit, as yousay, Phil.
Laws, if you could ask thegovernment or employers or the
media one thing about this ideaor about the Not A Date to
Celebrate campaign, what wouldit be?
Laura (34:43):
What would I ask them?
Uh probably it would be asimple question, why not?
What's I would be hard pressed.
Tell me why you think thisisn't a better idea than what we
currently have.
And I would ask, how long?
How much longer?
(35:05):
And how can you support us?
How are you using yourprivilege, your power, your
platform to raise awareness ofthis?
Because it's going to takecommunity action, it's going to
take even more communitysupport.
So the government cannot ignoreit anymore.
(35:25):
If they're not going to makethis come to this decision
themselves, it's pretty sound,reasonable, common sense
solution.
That's going to solve lots ofproblems for them, um,
themselves, then we need morepeople.
We need people power.
Sarah (35:36):
And we've seen people power, we've seen businesses get
on board this campaign as well.
Um, I couldn't agree more.
It's time.
It really is.
Phil, for non othernon-Indigenous people who are
listening to our podcast today,what advice would you give to
allies who want to support thismovement, but they're not sure
where to start?
Phil (35:57):
Well, I think um you've got to realize to make change,
you can stand up, one person canmake change.
It's been shown.
But it's really peoplecombining uh in partnerships,
like your in your worksituation.
I'm so blown away by that.
It's by people coming togetherand feel that you've got the
(36:21):
power to do something.
And the if you go onto ourwebsite, for example, uh
Australia Longweekend.com.au,there's a supporters page.
And those supporters aren'tsupporting me or supporting
James or supporting AustraliaLong Weekend Group or something.
They're supporting an idea.
(36:42):
This is an idea.
And once you release an idea,if it has memory, the idea will
never go away.
You know, a campaign can goaway.
An idea can never go away.
So what's been released is anidea.
And that idea is now out there.
It's not going to ever go away.
It's now been in the publicdomain.
(37:03):
You've done a blog about it.
We've written articles, been inthe papers, etc.
So it's not going away.
And I would ask people tosupport it, to spread the word,
and to feel they have the powerof action.
But there are rules.
The rules are you must berespectful, you must be accurate
(37:27):
and honest in what you say, andyou must treat people well.
Sarah (37:30):
Oh, Phil, I love these rules.
They sound very normal.
Vote one, Phil.
Phil and Laura, to close usout, I've got one last question
for us.
Phil, I'm going to start withyou.
What's one thing that you wouldlike our listeners to sit with
after this conversation, inaddition to your three rules for
life, if you will?
Phil (37:51):
Well, if they feel this has merit and if they want to
exhibit their best selves, thenthey've got to realise that if
they believe in things like afair go, this country's about a
fair go, justice, etc.
You must give justice to FirstNations people.
(38:13):
You can't celebrate on a day,frankly, of pain and hurt to
others.
I can't do it anymore.
And so you've got to then moveto a solution.
And this is a very goodsolution.
It's not just uh this is a kindof solution and we'll move off
(38:35):
to something else.
In my view, and I'm biased, uhI'm biased on it.
My view, it is the solution toit, I have to say, because it's
the best time of the year tocelebrate.
It's also the best time toreflect when you're with family
and friends.
And so I just imploreeverybody, including government
(38:57):
and the media, and the wholecitizens and business, get
behind these campaigns.
Let's change the daterespectfully in dialogue, and
let's move to the second lastMonday in January.
Sarah (39:12):
Laws, what about you?
What's one thing you'd like ourlisteners to sit with?
Great close, Phil. We can tell you're a barrister. Um,I think for First Nations
people, this Jan 26th has alwayspresented an issue and we've
been protesting as a result.
But now this is an issue forall Australians.
This is an issue for everyonebecause, like I said earlier,
(39:36):
people aren't comfortablecelebrating on this date.
And because of that, um, I feellike we can actually make
change because it's impacting onall Australians.
You know, we look at, you know,we've got a shop in Brunswick
and we have lots of people comein who are doing their
citizenship on that day.
And they're coming in to buy an'always was, always will be'
outfit, wishing that theircitizenship ceremony wasn't on
(40:00):
Jan 26 too.
And it's unfortunate, but it'soften until an issue impacts on
everyone, not just First Nationspeople, that Australians
actually stand up and say, Oh,I'm going to do something about
this as well.
And I certainly think that thisJan 26 Australia Day divisive
(40:20):
date is impacting on all of us.
And for that reason, I think weare going to get that support
and we're eventually going toget change.
I'm not hopeless about this.
I'm hopeful.
And this idea that we'vediscussed today is the best idea
to point that I've that I'veheard and that we've discussed.
(40:43):
So I guess I want to leavepeople with hope.
And I want to leave people withagency to, you know, educate
themselves.
Like Phil's a great example ofsomeone who's done that.
And to float these ideas andhave them with those loved ones
around you.
Absolutely. Phil, I really enjoyed your point about
(41:04):
an idea never goes away.
I love that.
And there is hope.
Things can be better.
This country deserves better.
First Nations community deservebetter.
And we deserve to write abetter story for our future
together.
And I think when we think aboutthe amount of momentum that
real change really does take,and as you said, Laws, it
affects all people from allwalks of life now.
This conversation today is areally good example of that of
(41:26):
Phil being in your early 80s.
Yes.
Don't correct me now.
Phil (41:33):
It's moving away from my early 80s as the minutes go by.
Sarah (41:37):
Yes, Phil.
And uh and and Laws, you know,as a as Gunditjmara woman and a
community leader in the advocacywork that you've done.
When we're coming togethertoday to have this conversation,
I think it really does speak tothe fact that we have reached a
really, really strong point inthis conversation and it has to
change.
So thank you both so much forbeing with us today and to our
(41:59):
listeners.
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Phil, for flyingdown from Sydney.
So together, I think let's stayopen and stay curious and keep
having those conversations, keepfloating those ideas, and let's
keep working together towardssomething better than where we
are now.
We're looking for progress overperfection because this is how
change begins.
So we've linked the change.orgpetition in the show notes for
(42:20):
you, along with a bunch of otherresources and links to learn
more about how to get involved.
So until next time, it's beenCommunity Conversations by
Clothing The Gaps.
We'll see you soon.
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