June 23, 2025 • 21 mins
It's a pleasure to introduce you to the laid-back, Mark. He's the kind of guy that could be everyone's mate, and not much seems to phase him. But he's concealing something, which involves handshakes, Samuel L. Jackson, and using his words carefully.
What is Mark concealing?
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, it's an exciting day for you because you're here
listening to me. Art Simone. Congratulations on your exceptional taste. Now,
if you're hearing this and thinking, wow, I wish I
was talented and gorgeous and outstanding as Artsimone. But I'm
just a boring normal person, don't feel bad because you're
about to have company. We're going to meet another boring
(00:29):
normal person, except I'm going to find out what they're concealing,
which makes them as exceptional as your taste in podcasts.
This is concealed with me, Art Simone, bring in our
boring normal person. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
My name is Mark. I am a consultant living in Melbourne.
I enjoyed playing the ukulele, baseball and golf, but I'm
concealing something about myself and how I use my words.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Hello, Marke, how are you? I am excellent, Art, how
are you? I'm doing very well. Thank you think of
coming and visiting me in the studio today. You're just
mentioning baseball. This is a baseball cap. It is a
baseball cap. Yes, I mean I mean people say baseball
cap like just a cap. It this is a specific
baseball because this is my team that I follow in America.
It's got an a on the frase.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
The Atlanta Braves. I find it easy to put on
a hat than do my hair.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Atlanta bra Yes, braves brave? Yes, yes, people in Atlanta
traditionally brave. No.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, So it's like the American Indian little braves like warriors.
That cool.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Have you been to Atlanta? I have a couple of
times I was hoping you'd say no, okay, And you
got to love your T shirt. You've got to tassoo
on your arms is harry, Yes, that's actually in the
Atlanta braves farming. It does look very the same type
of thing. Yes, to get that done in Atlanta. Yes, okay.
And you've got a what's that bracelet? That's Atlanta braids
(01:59):
as well. Here okay there all right? And you said
you're a consultant? Correct?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, what is a consultant? That just sounds like you go,
I have a job. It's a fancy thing to put
on my business cards. So it sounds like, yeah, I
know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So yeah, what do you just get? Like consulting? So
just yeah, wander around Yeah, just usually strangers. Sometimes I
just consult I say hey, hey, consultancy, and I'm here
to consult. Okay, all right, so the ukulele, Yes, how
do you deal with a tiny guitar? Tiny guitar makes
my hands feel really big, which is which is nice.
(02:38):
It's that a good thing. See where I look for
things that make my hands look smaller because I've got giant,
big flippers on the end of my hands. I need
to hold giant things to make my hands look small.
Makes sense, yes, right, okay, So it's all about proportion
for you. So what I'm going to do is ask
you three questions, and from the answer to those three questions,
(03:00):
I have to work out what it is that you're
concealing from me today you. So, first question to have
for you is what is your preferred way to greet someone?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
So for me, usually handshake. Handshakes pretty good. Like even
if there's a little bit of tension at the start,
handshake always.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Makes things better.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Not tension in the hand, Not tension in the hands
in the room, tension in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, handshake, you want to touch them. Even in a
post COVID world.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, yeah, most people react pretty well.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
COVID was the best thing that that was the best
thing to come out of COVID and also Uber eats
just leaving the food on your door and not having
to open the door and greet them. That was the
other great thing, contactless delivery or okay? Question number two?
What is an underrated skill that you have? So? I
tend to use my words carefully? Words carefully? What where's carefully? Oh? Blank? Okay?
(03:59):
Question three? Okay, what about this? What type of films
do you like? So? I'm big on Samuel L. Jackson.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I think, Yeah, he's a pretty cool dude. So I
sort of you name some films that he's been because
I know the name. Yeah, so the one with the voice, Yeah,
he's a cool dude. He wears the Kagole backward cap,
corner flat paps. Yeah, I can't get away with the
j Low cap. I haven't seen j Lo in.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The Donald Bradman cap.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, like beret, but he wears a backwards yeah, doctor
Harry cap.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yes, doctor. We finally met on something. He's in pop fiction,
which was cool.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
He was in Snakes on a Plane, Negotiator, Shaft, Avengers.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
He was in Avengers as well. Good for him. Wow, Okay, Mark,
he really presented me to really thoughtful clues to here
for today to work out what it is your concealing
from me? So hands words, I don't know. Are you
like it's a sign language interpreter. I don't know. That's interesting.
(05:02):
That's using hands and words and handshakes. That's all I've got.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I used to work as a negotiator for Victoria Police,
working in siege, suicide and hostage negotiations. I now teach
others how to deal with high stress and conflict situations.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I would not have got that. Does that mean it's
like that's a police thing or is that just a
separate entity to the police, Like what.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
No so with I was with Victoria Police for fifteen years, Yes,
and then seven of those years was as a police negotiator.
So you have to apply for a specialist unit. Yeah,
and then once you're in the specialist unit, then you
apply to be a negotiator. Then you've got to do
a course and then yeah, qualified as a negotiator.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And what makes you go I want to do the
negotiating or does someone like over here and they go, well,
Mark over here, it's really good getting us a good
deal sometimes and we go out to you know, have
a bev so maybe talk to Mark, like, how does
it work?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I think it's something I've always been interested in, Like
I like the not so much mind games, but I
like that, you know, someone telling me, Hey, I'm definitely
not coming out of this house. There's no way in
the world I'm coming out of this house. My job
was to turn up, you know, speak to him, try to,
I guess, convince them more.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's a better thing for him to come out of
the house.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And once I joined the unit, you start to see people,
you start see the negotiators working, and yeah, I thought, hey,
they'd be pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So gave it a crack. Are you non confrontational?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Uh, I'm patient. I think patient. Yeah, that's really good.
It takes a lot to get me gone.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah. So you know, I'm pretty much chill most of
the time. You'd have to have a pretty just like assess.
Are you not quick to react to anything?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, no, it's all it's all pretty cool, calm and collected,
at least on the outside, you know what I mean.
Like I've had I actually had to speak to my
mom a couple months ago and Mum said, you know
what's going on? And I said, Hey, I need to
talk to you about your choice in men's and she's like.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Oh, and she was like, why is that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And I said, look, the amount of people I've dealt
with the claim to have had sexual relations with you
is like really high, So just raise your standards up
a middle mum. So you hear all that smart stuff
and in a way, sometimes some of the insults and
stuff are a little bit childish.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So it's a little bit like high school. Right, So
how do you negotiate? Is it like the movies and
they call it you call up on a telephone, you
go yeah, hello, or do you have a megaphone or
do you pass a note under a door? What ways
do you negotiate?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So depending on the situation. So we can have face
to face through a door. Usually that they're going to
be barricaded or something like that. So face to face
we can do it on the radio. We do have
a loud speaker, which is I guess a little bit
like the movies, but that's only because we can't get
close enough. You know, they may be armed with something,
but we can't get close enough to do a face
(08:01):
to face, so we might do some loudspeaker stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So some of it bit hard to yell through a door.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, it is, it is so, yeah, or when people
are at height, you know, so if someone's on top
of a building, you know, there's only so much I
can yell from from the ground level, so we've got
to try and get up there somehow. But yeah, there's
different ways we can do it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I feel like a lot of mums would be good
negotiators because they have to negotiate with their kids to
get out of bed and do things. Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah,
I'm going to count. Do you count? No, I'm going
to give you to the count of three. You've got
to come out withace.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Come on, that's it. We can to three and then
you are like two and a half. You're not doing
three quarters. You're not getting tonight.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Do you want dessert? Do you want dessert? Come on?
Is it? There must be some parallels.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Definitely, a lot of the stuff we do people will
be doing it without even realizing it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yes, so you know you are.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You're probably in negotiations all the time with family members,
you know, especially with the kids. Sometimes it doesn't work
as well with the kids. Yes, but most people are
doing this sort of stuff all the time, and they
don't even realize it.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So do you get trained with a set of tools
and techniques to use in these situations?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah. So the course we did was I think it
was four weeks when I did it, and you know,
it's a lot of repetitions, but again it's not Sometimes
people here negotiator and they're like, oh, there must be
all these tricks, and there must be this, and there
must be that, but there's there are no tricks. The strategies,
but there's no tricks behind it, you know what I mean.
Like if if there was tricks to do it, you know,
if I could make people do something they did want
(09:33):
to do, I'd get paid a lot more money, you.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Know what I mean. So that's the real consultancy there,
that's the next avenue or right, yes, exactly, mind powers,
mental techniques. So if you're a negotiator, what does an
average day look like? Do you have something to negotiate
every day? There couldn't be something every day? No, So
is that very dramatic, like a situation where you need
to bring someone like you in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So obviously we were in Melbourne based, but we go statewide.
So if someone was kicking off in mil Durer, then
we're traveling down the road to more dura.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
But and you just do it over zoom. You know,
we could just put you an iPads in the front
and you could just do it remotely. That's very modern.
It is.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It is very modern, And that actually comes up a
little bit about you know, can you just make a
phone call and stuff? But we always wanted to be
on scene so I could at least and goes back
to what I was saying about the handshake thing, is
that that's that's most of the times, that's how they'd
finish up with me. You just go and hey, like,
I don't know where sshes with it? Come and shake
my hand. Yes, And that's how most of them would end. So,
but the day to day stuff, it's probably you know
(10:33):
sometimes you know, people are watching episode of cops right
and they're like, that is that what it's like, And
you're like, dude, that's that's like a thirty year career
in thirty minutes. So it's never quite that exciting. Yes,
most of the time, it's just cruising around. So we
cruise around, We helped out other units, but then when
you get the call, you kind of got to be
ready to go.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So are there like some key cases that you've been
involved with that stick out as being the most I
don't know, intense, So Outland is sure. Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
There's a couple that always stay with you, and they're
the ones where, you know, I guess reality Sometimes you're
dealing with some people that have committed some horrible crimes
and so those ones are tricky, but it's the ones
we actually get to help people. Yeah, you know, so
a lot of kids these days are struggling, especially with
their mental health. So those ones where I can actually
go out there you're dealing with good people who are
(11:21):
just having an awful time of it, they were the
best ones that you actually get some real good job
satisfaction with walking away knowing that you have actually helped
someone today.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Coming up, Mark tells us why libraries aren't as peaceful
and quiet as they seem, how you can get what
you want next time you negotiate with the help of
Australian sweetheart Vanessa and Morossi and about his record fast negotiation,
which is faster than this. So we're here with Mark
(11:54):
the negotiator. So how long can these negotiations last?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So my quickest one was twenty one seconds and my
longest one time it yeah right, yeah, that was that
was I literally walked up and the person was like, look,
I'm not coming out because you know you're going to
bash me. And I was like, we ain't going to
bash a man. Just come out with nothing in your
hands and you'll be fine. And he's like, you won't
(12:20):
bash me. I was like nah, he's like okay, coof So.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You came in that the you turned around the other
people they were like why didn't you?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, you walk away from that and people are like wow,
the negotiating and you're.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Like, yeah, all of the days I say twenty one seconds,
thank you. Yeah, so that was twenty one seconds. That
mean you're only clock in for twenty one seconds that day,
because that's not that's that's your taxes paying for that
as well. Do sometimes make conversations go a little bit longer?
Clock it extra. We're almost up to overtime. So what
did you eat for breakfast day? Are your team Edward
or team Jacob? Let me know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So that that was a quick one. The longest one
in one sitting was about sixteen hours. So yeah, that's
that's that's a long time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's like a current phone conversation with my mother. Ye jeez,
me negotiating be like I'm going to have to go. No,
I've arrived, I'm in the driveway. I'm going to have
to go. Moum. It happened today. Actually, I was like,
I'm going the line's breaking up. Yeah, I'm in a tunnel. No,
if you do that, she freaks out because then she
(13:19):
calls me, she said, then she won't stop calling me, Like,
have you been in a car? So yes? So, I
mean I haven't worked out the intricacies of negotiating just yet,
but maybe one day. Have you been able to use
any of these skills you've developed in your personal life
or do you just go do whatever you want?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I'm not involved so a little bit now, And I guess,
I guess sort of an irony is you know, being
a negotiator is very upfront. You know everyone's looking at
your But for me, especially naturally, I'm actually cor an introvert,
especially in social situations, I get like super nervous. And
the thing with negotiation is you're making everything about the
other person, which is cool because I don't particularly like
(14:01):
talking about myself and what I've done and which is
ironic because I'm on a podcast. But you know, most
times people want to talk about what they're passionate about.
So if you're genuine, if you're curious, if you ask questions,
usually people are going to want to talk to you.
Like I said, it doesn't come naturally to me, but
when I give it a crack, yes, it seems to work.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
All right, So how do you switch off them? That's
actually a good question.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So for me, work was work, So I was pretty
good at turning up, doing the job, driving home, and
then pretty much forgetting about it. So a lot of
the times people, you know, say, you know, what if
you've got troubles at home, what if you've got things
happen in your personal life? How do you deal with
that in a work sense? But for me, that are
always real separate lives. So when I used to go
(14:46):
to work, you know, it was actually it was like
a different life. So you know, you go to work,
you get involved in that drive home, Yeah all good,
Well that's good, there's no crossover.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
But then do you have your like friends and family,
how then you being like, hey, can you help with these?
We know you're really good at it. Can you can
you just come with me and help diffuse this situation? Please?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Sometimes the one I heard or hear most commonly was
you were negotiating, you know, you should be able to
do this or you should be able to do that,
And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Are you paying me? Yeah? Exactly unless I'm on the club.
If you're paying me, that's fine by me. That's like
my friends, You're like, oh, so and so is having
a hen's party. Could you just swing past? No? Yeah? No,
are you paying? No? We just thought you could. No,
I can't. Yeah, yeah, they really like it. Yeah, I'd
(15:37):
like not to be there, could we like? What's what's
what's going on? And you've won that battle? Yes? So
what do you say of your proudest achievements so far
from your career? So, I guess.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Proudest achievements, you know, are those ones that you get
to help people. There's some I guess, bigger jobs that
I've been to where you know, it's on the news
and that that sort of stuff, and they're the ones
that I guess, you know, people know as in you know,
your family talk to you about them. But it's probably
the smaller wins that are the better ones, sort of
(16:09):
stuff so that the proudest ones. Yeah, when especially dealing
with it with the teenagers. You know, we used to
get those a lot. If I can help a sixteen
seventeen year old kid turn their life around, you know
that that's what it was all about for me.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So feel free not to answer this if you don't
run new But how successful have you been? So some
don't end well?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Had two fatalities while I was a negotiator, and in
those situations like it's all I can do is give
it my best shot, and you know, you try your best,
you know, you try to make a connection, but you
know I can only do what I can do. And
it took me a while to get my head around
that because you know, I would help a young person
(16:55):
and then you know, you find out four weeks later
that've been in the same situation again, and that used
to get me.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
But it took me a little while.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But once I've got my head around the fact that
I'm only part of the system. So my job is
to hopefully get you off that building, get you out
of that house, and get you to someone else as
part of the system as well, and hopefully we can
get you that help. But you know, like I said,
sometimes it doesn't end well, but all you can do
is really give it your best shot.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So you're no longer doing that with the police. What
have you moved into now? Is this the mystery consultancy
that it wouldn't give me information about it?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I do have a business card. I've got many business
they gave me, like five hundred business cards. I don't
know what it's supposed to do with I.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Know, So what do you do now? Like who do
you work with? It in the same field.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So sort of but different. So the company I work
for is called pro Com Consulting. The boss will be happy.
I mentioned that one we basically we do heaps of
different stuff with different industries who deal with angry people
or upset people, So a lot of stuff in healthcare, ambulance, Victoria.
We work at the Ambos Hospitality. We're doing stuff with
(18:05):
libraries now, and I was like, what's up with libraries?
Like someone's talking too loud and they're.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Not listening to the shush.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But it's you know, they get a lot of people
coming in causing issues. So yeah, it probably sounds like
a cliche, but it's one of those industries that you'd
probably prefer didn't exist. But you know, people are dealing
with a lot of a lot of stuff out there,
so yeah, we go and help them.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So are you training people on how to diffew situations
and deal with.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, So bring in some of the
stuff from negotiator land into I guess private public sector
and yeah, just just and again it's it's not one
of those training.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Courses where we rewrite who you are.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's one of those things where I'd hope most people
would sit there and go, yeah, man, that's that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's I do that all the time. Seeing as you're
you know, you're qualified in training people. I want you
to train me today, please, yes? Okay, So you know
there are many times in my life where I've needed
to be good at negotiating and probably not very good
at it. Yes, So I'd love some tactics I can
use next time I'm negotiating. We might have to set
(19:11):
a scene. Okay, all right, I'm at a hen's party. Yes, okay,
the hen has locked herself in the bedroom. Oh god,
she's not coming out. Oh no, because her arch nemesis.
She had to invite there out of necessity for family
ties has arrived in the same color as her, and
she said, I'm not coming out the days over and
(19:33):
I've just walked in to perform. Absolutely everybody via Vanessa
Morossi and I don't know, and they're looking at me.
They're like, you have to fix this. How do we
get her out? And naturally I just want to say,
get stuffed to old mate, But she has to stay.
She's part of we have. Everyone has to have a
happy family photo at the end of the Hen's party.
How do I get her out of the bedroom? Give
(19:54):
me some tips.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So the best way to go about it is probably
another knock the door down. No no, no, so through
the window? No, sorry, no, it's another smash it boy, Vanessa?
And why don't you come join my party?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah? So there you go. So you start singing that
and she's going to be like, I can't we with her?
With where because reverse psychology, we're all having fun out
here without you. You know, you can join if you
want to. The green the grass is greener on the
other side of the door. Love, Yes, Vanessa, I'll put
that song on a perform it. Everyone will come together
(20:32):
in a joyous finale, will take the photo I'll get
my fifty bucks and then go away. Well that was Mark,
and no he wasn't a sign language person. He's a
former siege and hostage negotiator. I'm now going to use
(20:52):
those skills to negotiate with you. To check us out
in the socials and click that follow button man and
you comes in there. But that's again party whoo, but
it's Rosie. I know you want to click click, clickick,
click join the party now let the music play. Concealed
(21:19):
Without Simone is an iHeart production
Hello, it's an exciting day for you because you're here
listening to me. Art Simone. Congratulations on your exceptional taste. Now,
if you're hearing this and thinking, wow, I wish I
was talented and gorgeous and outstanding as Artsimone. But I'm
just a boring normal person, don't feel bad because you're
about to have company. We're going to meet another boring
(00:29):
normal person, except I'm going to find out what they're concealing,
which makes them as exceptional as your taste in podcasts.
This is concealed with me, Art Simone, bring in our
boring normal person. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
My name is Mark. I am a consultant living in Melbourne.
I enjoyed playing the ukulele, baseball and golf, but I'm
concealing something about myself and how I use my words.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Hello, Marke, how are you? I am excellent, Art, how
are you? I'm doing very well. Thank you think of
coming and visiting me in the studio today. You're just
mentioning baseball. This is a baseball cap. It is a
baseball cap. Yes, I mean I mean people say baseball
cap like just a cap. It this is a specific
baseball because this is my team that I follow in America.
It's got an a on the frase.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
The Atlanta Braves. I find it easy to put on
a hat than do my hair.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Atlanta bra Yes, braves brave? Yes, yes, people in Atlanta
traditionally brave. No.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, So it's like the American Indian little braves like warriors.
That cool.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Have you been to Atlanta? I have a couple of
times I was hoping you'd say no, okay, And you
got to love your T shirt. You've got to tassoo
on your arms is harry, Yes, that's actually in the
Atlanta braves farming. It does look very the same type
of thing. Yes, to get that done in Atlanta. Yes, okay.
And you've got a what's that bracelet? That's Atlanta braids
(01:59):
as well. Here okay there all right? And you said
you're a consultant? Correct?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, what is a consultant? That just sounds like you go,
I have a job. It's a fancy thing to put
on my business cards. So it sounds like, yeah, I
know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So yeah, what do you just get? Like consulting? So
just yeah, wander around Yeah, just usually strangers. Sometimes I
just consult I say hey, hey, consultancy, and I'm here
to consult. Okay, all right, so the ukulele, Yes, how
do you deal with a tiny guitar? Tiny guitar makes
my hands feel really big, which is which is nice.
(02:38):
It's that a good thing. See where I look for
things that make my hands look smaller because I've got giant,
big flippers on the end of my hands. I need
to hold giant things to make my hands look small.
Makes sense, yes, right, okay, So it's all about proportion
for you. So what I'm going to do is ask
you three questions, and from the answer to those three questions,
(03:00):
I have to work out what it is that you're
concealing from me today you. So, first question to have
for you is what is your preferred way to greet someone?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
So for me, usually handshake. Handshakes pretty good. Like even
if there's a little bit of tension at the start,
handshake always.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Makes things better.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Not tension in the hand, Not tension in the hands
in the room, tension in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, handshake, you want to touch them. Even in a
post COVID world.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, yeah, most people react pretty well.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
COVID was the best thing that that was the best
thing to come out of COVID and also Uber eats
just leaving the food on your door and not having
to open the door and greet them. That was the
other great thing, contactless delivery or okay? Question number two?
What is an underrated skill that you have? So? I
tend to use my words carefully? Words carefully? What where's carefully? Oh? Blank? Okay?
(03:59):
Question three? Okay, what about this? What type of films
do you like? So? I'm big on Samuel L. Jackson.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I think, Yeah, he's a pretty cool dude. So I
sort of you name some films that he's been because
I know the name. Yeah, so the one with the voice, Yeah,
he's a cool dude. He wears the Kagole backward cap,
corner flat paps. Yeah, I can't get away with the
j Low cap. I haven't seen j Lo in.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The Donald Bradman cap.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, like beret, but he wears a backwards yeah, doctor
Harry cap.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yes, doctor. We finally met on something. He's in pop fiction,
which was cool.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
He was in Snakes on a Plane, Negotiator, Shaft, Avengers.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
He was in Avengers as well. Good for him. Wow, Okay, Mark,
he really presented me to really thoughtful clues to here
for today to work out what it is your concealing
from me? So hands words, I don't know. Are you
like it's a sign language interpreter. I don't know. That's interesting.
(05:02):
That's using hands and words and handshakes. That's all I've got.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I used to work as a negotiator for Victoria Police,
working in siege, suicide and hostage negotiations. I now teach
others how to deal with high stress and conflict situations.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I would not have got that. Does that mean it's
like that's a police thing or is that just a
separate entity to the police, Like what.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
No so with I was with Victoria Police for fifteen years, Yes,
and then seven of those years was as a police negotiator.
So you have to apply for a specialist unit. Yeah,
and then once you're in the specialist unit, then you
apply to be a negotiator. Then you've got to do
a course and then yeah, qualified as a negotiator.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And what makes you go I want to do the
negotiating or does someone like over here and they go, well,
Mark over here, it's really good getting us a good
deal sometimes and we go out to you know, have
a bev so maybe talk to Mark, like, how does
it work?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I think it's something I've always been interested in, Like
I like the not so much mind games, but I
like that, you know, someone telling me, Hey, I'm definitely
not coming out of this house. There's no way in
the world I'm coming out of this house. My job
was to turn up, you know, speak to him, try to,
I guess, convince them more.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's a better thing for him to come out of
the house.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And once I joined the unit, you start to see people,
you start see the negotiators working, and yeah, I thought, hey,
they'd be pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So gave it a crack. Are you non confrontational?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Uh, I'm patient. I think patient. Yeah, that's really good.
It takes a lot to get me gone.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah. So you know, I'm pretty much chill most of
the time. You'd have to have a pretty just like assess.
Are you not quick to react to anything?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, no, it's all it's all pretty cool, calm and collected,
at least on the outside, you know what I mean.
Like I've had I actually had to speak to my
mom a couple months ago and Mum said, you know
what's going on? And I said, Hey, I need to
talk to you about your choice in men's and she's like.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Oh, and she was like, why is that?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And I said, look, the amount of people I've dealt
with the claim to have had sexual relations with you
is like really high, So just raise your standards up
a middle mum. So you hear all that smart stuff
and in a way, sometimes some of the insults and
stuff are a little bit childish.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So it's a little bit like high school. Right, So
how do you negotiate? Is it like the movies and
they call it you call up on a telephone, you
go yeah, hello, or do you have a megaphone or
do you pass a note under a door? What ways
do you negotiate?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So depending on the situation. So we can have face
to face through a door. Usually that they're going to
be barricaded or something like that. So face to face
we can do it on the radio. We do have
a loud speaker, which is I guess a little bit
like the movies, but that's only because we can't get
close enough. You know, they may be armed with something,
but we can't get close enough to do a face
(08:01):
to face, so we might do some loudspeaker stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
So some of it bit hard to yell through a door.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, it is, it is so, yeah, or when people
are at height, you know, so if someone's on top
of a building, you know, there's only so much I
can yell from from the ground level, so we've got
to try and get up there somehow. But yeah, there's
different ways we can do it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I feel like a lot of mums would be good
negotiators because they have to negotiate with their kids to
get out of bed and do things. Yeah, hundred percent. Yeah,
I'm going to count. Do you count? No, I'm going
to give you to the count of three. You've got
to come out withace.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Come on, that's it. We can to three and then
you are like two and a half. You're not doing
three quarters. You're not getting tonight.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Do you want dessert? Do you want dessert? Come on?
Is it? There must be some parallels.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Definitely, a lot of the stuff we do people will
be doing it without even realizing it.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yes, so you know you are.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You're probably in negotiations all the time with family members,
you know, especially with the kids. Sometimes it doesn't work
as well with the kids. Yes, but most people are
doing this sort of stuff all the time, and they
don't even realize it.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So do you get trained with a set of tools
and techniques to use in these situations?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah. So the course we did was I think it
was four weeks when I did it, and you know,
it's a lot of repetitions, but again it's not Sometimes
people here negotiator and they're like, oh, there must be
all these tricks, and there must be this, and there
must be that, but there's there are no tricks. The strategies,
but there's no tricks behind it, you know what I mean.
Like if if there was tricks to do it, you know,
if I could make people do something they did want
(09:33):
to do, I'd get paid a lot more money, you.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Know what I mean. So that's the real consultancy there,
that's the next avenue or right, yes, exactly, mind powers,
mental techniques. So if you're a negotiator, what does an
average day look like? Do you have something to negotiate
every day? There couldn't be something every day? No, So
is that very dramatic, like a situation where you need
to bring someone like you in. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So obviously we were in Melbourne based, but we go statewide.
So if someone was kicking off in mil Durer, then
we're traveling down the road to more dura.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
But and you just do it over zoom. You know,
we could just put you an iPads in the front
and you could just do it remotely. That's very modern.
It is.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
It is very modern, And that actually comes up a
little bit about you know, can you just make a
phone call and stuff? But we always wanted to be
on scene so I could at least and goes back
to what I was saying about the handshake thing, is
that that's that's most of the times, that's how they'd
finish up with me. You just go and hey, like,
I don't know where sshes with it? Come and shake
my hand. Yes, And that's how most of them would end. So,
but the day to day stuff, it's probably you know
(10:33):
sometimes you know, people are watching episode of cops right
and they're like, that is that what it's like, And
you're like, dude, that's that's like a thirty year career
in thirty minutes. So it's never quite that exciting. Yes,
most of the time, it's just cruising around. So we
cruise around, We helped out other units, but then when
you get the call, you kind of got to be
ready to go.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So are there like some key cases that you've been
involved with that stick out as being the most I
don't know, intense, So Outland is sure. Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
There's a couple that always stay with you, and they're
the ones where, you know, I guess reality Sometimes you're
dealing with some people that have committed some horrible crimes
and so those ones are tricky, but it's the ones
we actually get to help people. Yeah, you know, so
a lot of kids these days are struggling, especially with
their mental health. So those ones where I can actually
go out there you're dealing with good people who are
(11:21):
just having an awful time of it, they were the
best ones that you actually get some real good job
satisfaction with walking away knowing that you have actually helped
someone today.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Coming up, Mark tells us why libraries aren't as peaceful
and quiet as they seem, how you can get what
you want next time you negotiate with the help of
Australian sweetheart Vanessa and Morossi and about his record fast negotiation,
which is faster than this. So we're here with Mark
(11:54):
the negotiator. So how long can these negotiations last?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
So my quickest one was twenty one seconds and my
longest one time it yeah right, yeah, that was that
was I literally walked up and the person was like, look,
I'm not coming out because you know you're going to
bash me. And I was like, we ain't going to
bash a man. Just come out with nothing in your
hands and you'll be fine. And he's like, you won't
(12:20):
bash me. I was like nah, he's like okay, coof So.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
You came in that the you turned around the other
people they were like why didn't you?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, you walk away from that and people are like wow,
the negotiating and you're.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Like, yeah, all of the days I say twenty one seconds,
thank you. Yeah, so that was twenty one seconds. That
mean you're only clock in for twenty one seconds that day,
because that's not that's that's your taxes paying for that
as well. Do sometimes make conversations go a little bit longer?
Clock it extra. We're almost up to overtime. So what
did you eat for breakfast day? Are your team Edward
or team Jacob? Let me know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So that that was a quick one. The longest one
in one sitting was about sixteen hours. So yeah, that's
that's that's a long time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's like a current phone conversation with my mother. Ye jeez,
me negotiating be like I'm going to have to go. No,
I've arrived, I'm in the driveway. I'm going to have
to go. Moum. It happened today. Actually, I was like,
I'm going the line's breaking up. Yeah, I'm in a tunnel. No,
if you do that, she freaks out because then she
(13:19):
calls me, she said, then she won't stop calling me, Like,
have you been in a car? So yes? So, I
mean I haven't worked out the intricacies of negotiating just yet,
but maybe one day. Have you been able to use
any of these skills you've developed in your personal life
or do you just go do whatever you want?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I'm not involved so a little bit now, And I guess,
I guess sort of an irony is you know, being
a negotiator is very upfront. You know everyone's looking at
your But for me, especially naturally, I'm actually cor an introvert,
especially in social situations, I get like super nervous. And
the thing with negotiation is you're making everything about the
other person, which is cool because I don't particularly like
(14:01):
talking about myself and what I've done and which is
ironic because I'm on a podcast. But you know, most
times people want to talk about what they're passionate about.
So if you're genuine, if you're curious, if you ask questions,
usually people are going to want to talk to you.
Like I said, it doesn't come naturally to me, but
when I give it a crack, yes, it seems to work.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
All right, So how do you switch off them? That's
actually a good question.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So for me, work was work, So I was pretty
good at turning up, doing the job, driving home, and
then pretty much forgetting about it. So a lot of
the times people, you know, say, you know, what if
you've got troubles at home, what if you've got things
happen in your personal life? How do you deal with
that in a work sense? But for me, that are
always real separate lives. So when I used to go
(14:46):
to work, you know, it was actually it was like
a different life. So you know, you go to work,
you get involved in that drive home, Yeah all good,
Well that's good, there's no crossover.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
But then do you have your like friends and family,
how then you being like, hey, can you help with these?
We know you're really good at it. Can you can
you just come with me and help diffuse this situation? Please?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Sometimes the one I heard or hear most commonly was
you were negotiating, you know, you should be able to
do this or you should be able to do that,
And I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Are you paying me? Yeah? Exactly unless I'm on the club.
If you're paying me, that's fine by me. That's like
my friends, You're like, oh, so and so is having
a hen's party. Could you just swing past? No? Yeah? No,
are you paying? No? We just thought you could. No,
I can't. Yeah, yeah, they really like it. Yeah, I'd
(15:37):
like not to be there, could we like? What's what's
what's going on? And you've won that battle? Yes? So
what do you say of your proudest achievements so far
from your career? So, I guess.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Proudest achievements, you know, are those ones that you get
to help people. There's some I guess, bigger jobs that
I've been to where you know, it's on the news
and that that sort of stuff, and they're the ones
that I guess, you know, people know as in you know,
your family talk to you about them. But it's probably
the smaller wins that are the better ones, sort of
(16:09):
stuff so that the proudest ones. Yeah, when especially dealing
with it with the teenagers. You know, we used to
get those a lot. If I can help a sixteen
seventeen year old kid turn their life around, you know
that that's what it was all about for me.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So feel free not to answer this if you don't
run new But how successful have you been? So some
don't end well?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Had two fatalities while I was a negotiator, and in
those situations like it's all I can do is give
it my best shot, and you know, you try your best,
you know, you try to make a connection, but you
know I can only do what I can do. And
it took me a while to get my head around
that because you know, I would help a young person
(16:55):
and then you know, you find out four weeks later
that've been in the same situation again, and that used
to get me.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
But it took me a little while.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
But once I've got my head around the fact that
I'm only part of the system. So my job is
to hopefully get you off that building, get you out
of that house, and get you to someone else as
part of the system as well, and hopefully we can
get you that help. But you know, like I said,
sometimes it doesn't end well, but all you can do
is really give it your best shot.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So you're no longer doing that with the police. What
have you moved into now? Is this the mystery consultancy
that it wouldn't give me information about it?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I do have a business card. I've got many business
they gave me, like five hundred business cards. I don't
know what it's supposed to do with I.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Know, So what do you do now? Like who do
you work with? It in the same field.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
So sort of but different. So the company I work
for is called pro Com Consulting. The boss will be happy.
I mentioned that one we basically we do heaps of
different stuff with different industries who deal with angry people
or upset people, So a lot of stuff in healthcare, ambulance, Victoria.
We work at the Ambos Hospitality. We're doing stuff with
(18:05):
libraries now, and I was like, what's up with libraries?
Like someone's talking too loud and they're.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Not listening to the shush.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But it's you know, they get a lot of people
coming in causing issues. So yeah, it probably sounds like
a cliche, but it's one of those industries that you'd
probably prefer didn't exist. But you know, people are dealing
with a lot of a lot of stuff out there,
so yeah, we go and help them.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
So are you training people on how to diffew situations
and deal with.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, So bring in some of the
stuff from negotiator land into I guess private public sector
and yeah, just just and again it's it's not one
of those training.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Courses where we rewrite who you are.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's one of those things where I'd hope most people
would sit there and go, yeah, man, that's that's what
I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's I do that all the time. Seeing as you're
you know, you're qualified in training people. I want you
to train me today, please, yes? Okay, So you know
there are many times in my life where I've needed
to be good at negotiating and probably not very good
at it. Yes, So I'd love some tactics I can
use next time I'm negotiating. We might have to set
(19:11):
a scene. Okay, all right, I'm at a hen's party. Yes, okay,
the hen has locked herself in the bedroom. Oh god,
she's not coming out. Oh no, because her arch nemesis.
She had to invite there out of necessity for family
ties has arrived in the same color as her, and
she said, I'm not coming out the days over and
(19:33):
I've just walked in to perform. Absolutely everybody via Vanessa
Morossi and I don't know, and they're looking at me.
They're like, you have to fix this. How do we
get her out? And naturally I just want to say,
get stuffed to old mate, But she has to stay.
She's part of we have. Everyone has to have a
happy family photo at the end of the Hen's party.
How do I get her out of the bedroom? Give
(19:54):
me some tips.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So the best way to go about it is probably
another knock the door down. No no, no, so through
the window? No, sorry, no, it's another smash it boy, Vanessa?
And why don't you come join my party?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah? So there you go. So you start singing that
and she's going to be like, I can't we with her?
With where because reverse psychology, we're all having fun out
here without you. You know, you can join if you
want to. The green the grass is greener on the
other side of the door. Love, Yes, Vanessa, I'll put
that song on a perform it. Everyone will come together
(20:32):
in a joyous finale, will take the photo I'll get
my fifty bucks and then go away. Well that was Mark,
and no he wasn't a sign language person. He's a
former siege and hostage negotiator. I'm now going to use
(20:52):
those skills to negotiate with you. To check us out
in the socials and click that follow button man and
you comes in there. But that's again party whoo, but
it's Rosie. I know you want to click click, clickick,
click join the party now let the music play. Concealed
(21:19):
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