The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide

Julia Mayer, a clinical psychologist, shares her extensive caregiving journey spanning nine years, which involved caring for her father after her mother's unexpected passing and then supporting her husband Barry's mother, Jean, and stepfather, Steve. After her mother died during a heart surgery recovery, Julia and her siblings stepped in to care for their father, with her older brother taking the primary caregiver role while Julia provided weekend relief. Her father passed away about 15 months after her mother, and shortly after, they became involved in caring for Barry's parents, who were experiencing financial difficulties.

Julia and Barry relocated Jean and Steve from Florida to an apartment near them, managing their care through the use of aides, a notebook system, and personal visits. Despite Jean's combative nature and strained relationship with Barry, Julia approached caregiving with compassion, patience, and a sense of humor. Her professional background as a psychologist helped her maintain emotional distance and communicate effectively, often serving as a mediator between Jean and Barry. She focused on preserving her family relationships through open communication and involving her children in the caregiving process.

Throughout their caregiving experience, Julia and Barry collaborated closely, supporting each other emotionally and eventually turning their experiences into professional resources. They are set to publish "The Caregiver's Answer Book" with AARP in July 2025, providing comprehensive guidance for caregivers in various situations. Julia's approach to caregiving emphasizes three key principles: not taking the care recipient's suffering personally, maintaining empathy and compassion, and seeking support for oneself during the challenging caregiving journey.

Social Media

Facebook: @Julia Mayer 

X: @JuliaLMayer23

Instagram: Julmayer23

LinkedIn: @Julie Mayer

Website: www.loveandmeaning.com

About Julia:

Julia L. Mayer, Psy.D is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Media, PA. She received her bachelor’s degree from the University of Pennsylvania and her doctorate in clinical psychology from Widener University. Prior to becoming a psychologist, she wrote plays and interned as an assistant to the director for a theater company in New York. She has published professionally in the APA journal, Families, Systems & Health. She also co-authored various articles with her husband, Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D., for WebMD and HealthCentral. She has been doing individual and marital therapy for 31 years, specializing in working with women who have histories of sexual trauma, eating disorders and troubled marriages. She has increasingly focused her work on supporting caregivers. Since 2018, she has been doing a weekly podcast about psychology and social justice, called Shrinks on Third. For nine years, she was a caregiver for her father with vascular dementia and

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(00:02):
Confessions of a reluctantcaregiver. Podcast. On the show,
you'll hear caregiversconfessing the good, the bad and
the completely unexpected.
You're guaranteed to relate beinspired. Leave with helpful
tips and resources and, ofcourse, laugh. Now let's jump
right in to today's guestconfession. Hey, Jay. Well,
hello, Natalie. You know what itfeels what you know what would

(00:27):
be the best thing to do today?
Get a massage. No, I want totalk to Julia.
You asked what was your answer?
I'm sorry. I want to. I want totalk to Julia. Oh, yeah, we have
a guest today, and so we'recoming to you guys from the
brand new studio, from PBS,Appalachia. Thank you. So we

(00:49):
don't get anything, yeah, we'vebeen talking about how to say
it, is it Appalachia? Is itAppalachia? I'm going to tell
you right now. I use itinterchangeably, depending on
and I'm from Tennessee, and allmy Virginia friends are going to
be like, if you don't sayAppalachia, we're going to be
really mad. Oh, even our guestis nodding her head at this
moment. I'm like, I think you'rea Northerner. You're even going

(01:11):
to vote on this? She's noddingher head. She's like, Yeah, I
do. So we are. We're so excited.
We're telling everybody, youknow, we're here recording in
the new PBS studio in the HardRock Bristol, and we have a
clear screen. I've been watchingeverybody like, if I randomly,
if you're watching us onYouTube, which I encourage you
to watch us on YouTube, we'vegot a brand new set. We don't

(01:33):
have. We're not at the podcast.
We're in chairs and we're comfyand it feels good. We did our
hair and we, oh, we put clotheson. We wasn't just like, in
sweatpants because nobody couldsee it. It's exactly, fair,
exactly. So we're so happy to behere. And also want to give a
shout out. We've got a brand newsponsor in addition to care
forward, we also have careScout, who is a brand new

(01:55):
sponsor. We'll make sureeverybody has information about
them and definitely look themup. They are able to help
support with identifyingresources for home health. And
so I'm really grateful to havecare Scout as part of our newest
sponsor. So Jay, I think it'stime we have a guest jump right
in.

(02:16):
Yeah, even sing. And we'verecorded two episodes and I
haven't sang once today. No, Ikind of get it started. Okay,
giving right? You have to beserious. Ready? No, you don't
have to be serious.
Okay, today we have with us,Julia Mayer, now we have heard
one side of this story. Oh, wehave because we had her husband,

(02:38):
Barry Jacobs. We left him withus. I don't his. I love Barry
Jacob. You know what? He was thekickoff. I believe he was the
kickoff episode for 2024he was, yeah,
but now we're getting, we getthe other side, because it's
like the He Said, She Said,remember that movie? He said,
she said, it was such a cutemovie. I did my voice. The other
side of that story. What thisis, I don't know what this deep

(02:59):
story I was trying to have it,but I don't have I gotta finish
telling this. So first of all, Itold her already. I told Julia
already. I love to get someonewho's had caregiving experience,
and they actually are aprofessional, not caregiver, but
a professional. She, she's aclinical psychologist, and so no
joke, she's totally like she,she absolutely is a
professional. She knows how todo this. She has not messed up

(03:21):
once. She handled it with graceand style. Laughing. She is like
a figure skater that does theperfect triple looks the LUTs.
Yeah, not a triple loop. That'sdefinitely maybe she as She
giggles when we see her on thescreen, she may tell us that she
might have had a couple oferrors so, but let me tell you a
little bit about her. So her,her caregiving experience is
really interesting. She tookcare of her father and Barry's

(03:44):
mother and stepfather. So herfather, the experience with him
is that her mother passed awayunder do I give away all the
details, but I want to say that,because that was kind of like
our story. And then she startedcaring for him, and she also had
siblings that she worked with.
We love that she has siblings, Iknow. So then, as a good wife,
she also cared for Barry'smother and stepdad. So I'm like,

(04:09):
she is, like, here on thestruggle bus, on the intro,
great, yeah, I know, becauseit's such a crazy story. I'm
like, she's caring for all thesepeople, and she's perfect,
because, you know, well, andshe's, and this is the other
thing. I mean, she's a clinicalpsychologist. She's working too,
and doing all these amazingthings. So we just got to get
started. Yeah, tell us the storystarted. Tell us the story.

(04:32):
Julia, I mean, first of all,tell us. Tell us. How about you?
Let me start, because you'rediscombobulated right now. Okay,
Julia, I always like to say,let's start from the beginning.
You were born, but tell us aboutyour background. Bring us up to
you. Met Barry like bring us up.
Give us some background so weknow a little bit more about
you. Okay, thank you so much forhaving me, and I am happy to

(04:56):
give you the other side of thestory. Here you.
Yes, I met Barry in graduateschool. He was a year ahead of
me, andthat's just the beginning of the
dream. And and then, you know,we got married, we had kids, and
by the time my mother passedaway suddenly, and I was helping
to care for my dad, our kidswere teenagers. We were taking

(05:17):
care of our kids. We were thatsandwich generation, the kids
and then the parents. And wait,I'm going to time you out
because you skipped over some ofthe most important parts. Tell
us about you and your family.
Like, tell us, give me thebackground of your family. Like
you're from this area. You arelike, you're wondering, like,
you just jumped right intoBarry, like you were born, and

(05:39):
then there was Barry, and thenthere was Barry, and they're
like, I'm just gonna forget allthe metal parts. We know you
have siblings. Yes, yeah, okay,okay, I was, I was, I'm from New
York, yes, and probably why Ispeak quickly, but been in
Pennsylvania for many, manyyears. Yeah, I do have three
siblings, an older brother,younger sister, younger brother.

(06:00):
Okay,you know your typical childhood.
I went away to college and movedon from there. And when I am
going to jump ahead a littlebit, right ahead, go ahead. My
mother passed awayat that time. My older brother
was still in New York, where myparents were, where my dad was
still living. But I had abrother in California and a

(06:23):
sister in New Jersey who hadvery young children, yeah, so I
had the teenagers, so my olderbrother and I did most of the
care, yeah, and but my brotherlived 45 minutes for my dad, and
of course, he was working fulltime. I was working full time,
and what we came up with was hewould do the bulk of the care.
And then every other weekend, onFriday night, on Friday

(06:45):
afternoon, I would drive thethree hours to my dad's and give
my brother a weekend off. Wow.
So every other weekend I was inNew York taking care of my dad.
Any experience as you're growingup, like, did you have
grandparents or aunts and unclesthat you all cared for? Or was

(07:06):
this something new that you werelike, okay, my mom has passed
away, and we have to step inbecause she was full time
caregiver for your dad. Yeah, Iwas getting ready to say even
before that. I want to back up alittle bit, because you use in
your notes that you sent to us,you said my mom was my dad's
primary caregiver. So let's kindof actually back up and set the
stage so that people know thatthis caregiving really did

(07:29):
happen in a crisis. And becauseI want to reset a little bit,
because we got really forward,and I'm like, I don't think I
know well enough about whathappened before. So your mom was
caring for your dad. But why wasyour mom caring for your dad? My
dad had vascular dementia andkidney disease and diabetes, and

(07:51):
he was really smart.
He was a doctor, so he never gotmedical care, that's at work,
yeah, and so he probably didn'thave to be as bad off as he was,
but, and she was an attorney,actually, and both of them had
semi retired, so they had a bigretirement party, and then they

(08:13):
both continued to work, butmaybe a little bit less, yeah,
and he started to have smallstrokes, and tias and she
started to get to the pointwhere she was worried about
leaving him alone. So someweekends when she was caring for
him, where my sister and Iwould, you know, kidnap her and
have my brother step in for theweekend, and we would take her

(08:35):
to Atlantic City or something,so that she could have a little
time off. Oh, so you were caringfor your mom too. You and your
your siblings were helping to bewe call that caregivers for
caregivers. Because, I mean, Iknow you, your face was like,
well, sorted. I'm like, No, Ireally think you should call for
what you were doing. And it, youknow, because caregiving is
varying levels of interaction,and it's not just of, you know,

(08:58):
doing helping with activities ofdaily living or just taking to
doctor's appointments ormedicine a lot of times. And
this is something I think that'sso important. Caregivers have
to. Caregivers need caregiverstoo. And so I think those trips
not only helped reinforce yourall's relationship, but also
provided that respite that sheprobably needed to help her keep

(09:20):
going, and I think that's itsounds, and it sounds like a
team sport, team activity. So Ithink that sounds that's
important. And so when your mompassed unexpectedly, did you and
your family because your dad gotsick and he had this diagnosis,
did you and the family have anyconversations, or did your

(09:42):
parents tell you? This is whatyour dad and I have decided to
do. We know that you're like,because for us, with with us, my
mom and dad had decided my momwas going to pass first, and God
did not align with that. And sohe was like, No, hold on a
second. You think you're incontrol. That's cute. And.
So we never had conversationsaround care, we never had

(10:03):
conversations around finances.
We never had conversations aboutwhat the plan was and what their
wishes were for them. And sothat's why, I think that's why I
wanted to back us up to say,let's go into that.
We never had those conversationseither. But when my mother was
going into the hospital forheart valve replacement and

(10:25):
bypass surgery,and I just want to say the
caregiver often gets sick too.
Yes, exactly, you know, we can'tforget that. And she was having
her own health problems, and shewas ignoring them also, because
she was caring for him, we gother to, you know, a surgeon, and
she she really needed thesurgery. She was having trouble

(10:46):
breathing and walking more than10 paces, so she had this heart
valve surgery and this bypasssurgery, and we were as a team,
except for my brother inCalifornia. The rest of us were
ready to step in and rotate carefor my dad. Yeah, that was the
plan for her recovery. But threedays after her surgery, she had
this rare side effect from thebypass machine called

(11:08):
hemorrhagic pancreatitis, andthat was it for her. So we were
completely left unprepared, andmy dad was not functional,
losing her. Yeah, they met. Hewas 17, and she was 16, and they
had been, I mean, they were intheir 70s, so Wow, they they

(11:28):
were, they were a 50 Year kindof relationship, long term
relationship, that is, andthat's so painful, because, you
know, you guys didn't expectthis to happen, and I don't
think anyone expects it tohappen. But when you have one
parent that is caring foranother parent with a
significant illness,that is that is different than

(11:48):
everybody was just running,running concurrently and being
okay, and this is how we wereliving, sort of idea. So, so you
guys are trying to grieve. Andalso, now you're in charge, and
so you and your siblings, waswhat happened at that point with
you and your siblings, in thesense of, we're going to have to

(12:08):
do this thing. And also, holycrap, we've got to take care of
dad, because we had thatconversation. Holy crap, we've
got to take care of mom. And howare we going to do this? Yeah,
and, and it was traumatic how mymother died. Now so traumatized,
we were overwhelmed, trying togrieve, trying to support my

(12:30):
dad. My dad became kind of nonfunctional and to do everything,
yeah, luckily, there were fourof us so my older brother,
I would have to say, really, didthe bulk of the planning. He and
I, together did a lot we were,ended up being co executors of

(12:50):
their wills and and my dadwas a wonderful person. He, I
mean, he really was. He onlylasted about 15 months after
her, because he he reallycouldn't exist without her. He
depressed, but he was reallycooperative. Um, there came a
time where we had to take hiscar from him, because even

(13:13):
though my mother would say to meprivately, I hate when Dad
drives, he let him andthen she died. And then we're
like, Okay, we have to get thecar from dad, yeah, my older
brother, um, just disconnectedthe battery thinking, Oh, he'll
try to start the car, and itwon't start, and he'll give up.
But no, he called his mechanicto come over and look plugged it

(13:36):
in again. I turned all threesiblings are like, okay, Julie,
you better. You it's your turn.
So I It was horrible. I sat downwith him, and I said, we have to
talk about the car. And I wasready for him to resist. And he
said, I've been thinking aboutit. I'd like to give your
daughter, she's 16. I'd like togive her that car. Oh, I love

(13:59):
that. It gives back dignity andcontrol, making like he knew,
yeah, well, I could do was saythank you. That's so generous.
That's so it was an old Buick.
It was perfect for, you know, 16year old. Honestly, we had our
own first cars that, you know,you could run into the side of
the bridge and it wouldn't dent,yeah, that's what a Buick is.

(14:21):
So, you know you said, and I,when I hear that, you know your
your dad lasted 15 monthsbecause they they truly were
together for so long, I knowthat in that time as well, at
what point did you know you'veyou've got that correlating
story of Barry's stepfather andhis mom. When does that kind of

(14:43):
jump in with the story as well?
Like, where is that? Is thatrunning concurrently as well? Or
is or did you it was reallysupporting your and what I hear
you saying is, I supported mybrother, who was my dad's
primary caregiver, and.
By providing relief on theweekends. This is how me and my
other sibling would do that,which I think is great, because

(15:06):
that your role in that is verysimilar to how Emily and I try
to support Jay as the primary.
Because it's fine to have aprimary, and it's okay if it's
not you. But what can you do asa sibling, as a friend, as a
family member, as another humanbeing to support the primary I
think that's so important.

(15:27):
Absolutely. As a matter of fact,I will answer your question, but
I wanted to add my youngersiblings. I kind of coordinated
them so there were times wheremy sister could get over to see
my dad. She was only an hour anda half away so she could leave
her kids with her husband orwhatever, and spend some time.
So we coordinated, and mybrother in California would come

(15:47):
out every couple months.
So somehow we had it covered,even though my older brother
still did the bulk of it. Butwhat happened was, when my
father finally did pass away,and then we were grieving him,
we also felt some relief. Thiswas not an easy thing to do,
yeah, and it, you know, it'stypical. Lots of people feel
relief as well as sadness. Youknow, we're just humans. And

(16:08):
then I was thinking, okay, wecan focus on our kids. We're all
good. Bucha, my parent, myparents are, you know, done.
Six months later, we get a callfrom Barry's mom, and she says,
Can you send me $30,000holy cow,

(16:31):
yeah, I want to hold I'm goingto take a break. On. Can you
send me $30,000 because that isa perfect moment. Hold on, take
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(16:53):
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(17:16):
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[e-mail] we are back, and we're here
with Julia Mayer and Natalie andI are so excited to be back. So
your father has passed away. Youand your siblings have been

(17:39):
taking care of them for a yearand a half, and you've had a six
month reprieve from caregivingand something triggers, and
Barry's mother calls and says,pick it up there. Julia,
I need $30,000Can you send me $30,000 Okay,
that's not like a $20 bill,yeah? Like, just say 30 Yeah.

(18:01):
What we knew, and I willbacktrack a little bit on Yeah.
Go ahead, about a year and aquarter earlier, we had been
down there. They lived inFlorida, lived in Florida, in
this gorgeous gated communitywhere the hedges are at right
angles, and everyone drives aMercedes, and they traveled the
world. These are not people whosat at home and then her my

(18:24):
mother in law's husband, Jeanand Steve. Steve was diagnosed
with Alzheimer's, and so we werevisiting them, and
I was taking a walk with Jean,and we were just chatting, and I
said, Look, I know, I know Stevehas Alzheimer's, and you know

(18:45):
how that goes, it's going to getworse. We're here for you. You
know, if you would move up nearus,
we would be happy to take careof you. You know, that's we want
to Yeah. And she and inresponse, she said to me,
I'd rather live in the gutter.
Yeah, and here's the thing,Barry Jacobs, you can look up
his episode, because Barry'sepisode, you're going to hear

(19:09):
about a tenuous relationshipwith his mother and and I think
this is, it is a very goodexample that it is sometimes not
easy to care for someone youdon't care for. And so there is
care, and there are things thatyou have to put aside. And I
don't, I don't want to speak forBarry, but I mean, I know that

(19:30):
was a tenuous relationship, andI can only imagine, and he
shares very openly about that.
And so I would encourage you toalso listen to that, because
that's what we were saying. Thisis the He Said, She Said,
because this is the otherperspective, because he's saying
Julia's praises in his in hispodcast episode, because Julia,
you just seemed like you filledyou filled the space between to

(19:53):
try to help soften the edges. Itfeels like and.
I also want to say you also hadchildren still. How old were the
How old were your children atthe time?
They were teenagers? So mydaughter applying to college. My
son is three years younger,yeah. So jump to the six months

(20:16):
after my father dies, myfamily's still grieving. You
know, we're still grieving mymother too, because it had
everything had happened soquickly, right? And we get this
call asking for $30,000 andBarry says to me, I don't know
what to do. And I said, Well, wecould send them $30,000 or we
could light it on fire, and itwould have the same outcome.

(20:37):
That's right. Oh, so he said,Mom, I can't do that. And she
got very angry at him because,but what we what we discovered,
starting with that phone call,was that they were bankrupt.
Wow. So we had to intervene.
Barry flew down to Florida andbasically got the bankruptcy

(20:59):
going. They lost their home.
They had to give their car back.
And with this kind ofbankruptcy, I'm not an expert,
but you can only take $10,000worth of stuff. Wow, you took
some furniture and hertelevision and I raced around up
here in Pennsylvania to findthem an apartment to live in.

(21:20):
And because her husband hadAlzheimer's, I was worried about
renting,you know, with Alzheimer's
progressing, I was afraid they'dget kicked out of their
apartment if he was yelling. SoI bought a place in a beautiful
building a mile from us thatI live in a little tiny town,
and this building is verypopular. It has a beautiful

(21:40):
lobby, it has a pool, it hasmeeting rooms, it has a van that
takes people to doctor'sappointments, into the
supermarket. Oh, that's like a,it's a, almost sounds like a
hybrid assisted living, but it'sjust a condo. It's just a really
nice, high quality, wow. OfLouise Thompson, I would have
her parents. That, like LouiseThompson in the UK, that is much

(22:01):
higher than the gutter. Sokudos,
Joya fell out, or an added data,really nice. So moving on that
is high. Wow, gutter. I want toknow you to be my caregiver. I
know. Okay, go. Keep going. Sowe moved them up. And, you know,

(22:21):
it was an ordeal. It was noteasy, yeah, and they very upset.
They did not want to move. Theywanted to keep living their
life, but they ran out of money,and like I said, they had lived
high on the hog, and they werepaying the price, I guess. But
yeah, so we moved them into thisapartment. And Barry has three
cousins, my mother in law'sthree nieces, who she, I think,

(22:43):
preferred to her two sons, or atleast the one son. Yeah,
and so she was, she was tellingthem over the phone, within the
first few days of living in theapartment that we had put her in
a tenement.
I'm not sure she knows what,what century she lives in right
now because, like she's actinglike she's one of, you know, one

(23:04):
of the surfs,yeah? So, you know, it was, it
is a nice apartment. Yeah, it'sa nice apartment, and I tried to
make it as nice as possible. Soevery step of the way she was
very challenging. I would havethem over to dinner, and I'd
make this whole big meal. Theyhad both lost weight in Florida,
I think, because of theirstress, yeah, all this food

(23:25):
knowing I wanted to send somehome with them. And they would
sit down at the table with mykids too and Barry and say,
we're not hungry.
And so at first, I didn't knowwhat to do. And then I had this
idea that I would just make upplates like they were in a
restaurant and put them in frontof them. And when I put the
plates down in front of them,they ate, huh? And and then I

(23:49):
would pack up the food to havethem take back to their
apartment, and they would fightme on that we don't want the
leftovers. We don't eatleftovers. We don't want that.
And I would still, I would drivethem back and put it in the
refrigerator, and it also wouldget eaten.
I was afraid she was going tosay she delivered it like Uber
and I was coming to get you,Julia, I was like, you have just

(24:10):
overstepped. So Wow. So you areall, and I know this, you know
you have this, this psychologybackground, but you're almost
playing to whatever you have todo to help them, I want to know
in all of this. So you are doingthis, are you doing it to keep
the peace? Like, is this helpingBarry? Because I know that

(24:34):
relationship is hard, and what,what is your purpose in doing
this? What is your mindset andhow is it impacting you? So
multiple purpose. I definitelywanted to support Barry. I
wanted to help him, and I knewthat his relationship with both
his mother and his stepfatherwas fraught, difficult, yeah,
and it was less difficult forme, although my long history

(24:58):
with my mother in law was I.
That when Barry and I were firsttogether, she wanted to get dirt
from me about him, like shewanted me to complain about him
to her, and I, I didn't haveanything to complain about he is
I really like Barry too,but she, I guess, felt like
that's how we were going tobond, and because I wouldn't do

(25:19):
it. We didn't bond, so we reallydidn't we hardly knew each
other. We did not have a goodrelationship. That was close,
but there was no hostility.
Yeah, it was,yeah. I was her grandchildren's
mom. There you go, yeah. So, so,how is this, from your
perspective, impacting yourrelationship, your career?
Because they live a mile away,you've got ungrateful party of

(25:42):
one. Because really, I don'tknow that Steve is I think Steve
is existing at this way. I mean,he's the one that is sick at the
moment, and the sense of sickwith Alzheimer's, and so you
guys are trying to manage raisechildren, and how is it
affecting you personally?

(26:02):
So, oh, it definitely did. So Iwanted to help Barry, but I also
just have a very strong feelingof I like to help people. I do
it for a living, and wanted toas difficult as my in laws were,
I felt like it was the rightthing to do, and I wanted to do
the right thing. And I wanted tomodel for my kids, it is what

(26:23):
you do with your family, evenwhen they're rude to your face,
you just do it. Yeah, and so.
But it was really stressful,very stressful. And I think
Barry said this in his podcastwith you,
we would talk to each other. Youknow, we would sort of meet each
other down, like one of us wouldgo over there to do something

(26:44):
and come back and be likereaching, and the other one
would listen and talk to talkthem down. Or, you know, there
were times where my mother inlaw,
she has snuck all her jewelry uphere. Yeah, of course, yeah, of
course. She was busy selling itsecretly and getting cash and

(27:05):
then spending the cash on shehad a shopping addiction, so she
was busy spending her cash onall kinds of things she didn't
need. Meanwhile, we had boughther an apartment. We had two
kids that had to go to collegesoon, yeah. It was just very
stressful, and we did not wanther to waste her money, right?
But she was busy taking herselfout to lunch in our little town
and getting to know everyone inthe town, I think, bad mouthing

(27:28):
Barry and I to everyone to thetown. Yeah, yeah. So,
so she one day.
So we decided that we had thisbabysitter for our kids for
years. We decided, wouldn't itbe great if she could help out
with Jean and Steve? And shedid, and then, after we had to

(27:51):
put Steve in a nursing home, shehelped out with Jean, and they
became best buds, and she becameher accomplice, where they would
rush to the jewelry storetogether to sell her jewelry.
Oh, my God. Oh my gosh. I wasthinking that was going to be, I
was thinking it was going to bean advocate for now, giving you
the damn totally sideways,totally went right on that one
you were trying. That's just themoment where it's like, no good

(28:14):
deed goes unpunished.
And it really took me bysurprise, because I would have
these conversations with her,Oh, you know, we're trying to
keep Jean from spending too muchmoney, you know. How about you?
Don't go out to lunch, you know,the two of you could have what's
in the house and and she wouldnot yet, she would Yes me, and
then they would be out havinglunch and spending money that
you know, who was paying forthis service. Just curious,

(28:37):
asking, already know the answer.
So, so what happened was thethree nieces who heard about the
tenement decided that theywanted to pay for a cleaning
lady to come. And I thought,Well, why don't we merge these
two things? We could have thebabysitter get paid, yeah, and
do the good, and also spend thetime with Jean, and, you know,
be her entertainment and takeher around.

(29:00):
And so they would send a checkonce a month to cover the
cleaning lady expenses. And Iwas on gene bank account. Thank
goodness I was I managed to dothat. And so one day, I was
looking at it, and the moneywent in, and then the money went
out. And I said to Jean, when Isaw her next. What happened to

(29:21):
the check your niece is sent?
It's gone. And she saidthere was a bank robbery.
I said, you know, we live in atiny town with one bank, and I
would know, I think it was abank. I like your just kind of
like,that sounds like that sounds

(29:42):
like my mom's done somethingbad, and she just kind of looks
off and blames it on something.
You're like, I think so.
Sometimes my husband and I havethe best conversations, like,
you're just laying there in bed,like, right before you're
getting ready to go to sleep,it's not something you and Barry
are laughing about. Like, Hey,your mom told me the bank was
robbed today. Okay, I'll.
See in the morning, like, isthat a bedtime conversation?

(30:03):
Just curious. Well, at the time,I mean, it is. I look back and
there's a lot of things tolaugh. You just want to cuss or
cry. Yeah, exactly. We got cusscry, and then we get to the
laughter point, yeah, yeah.
That's, that's laughs, yeah?
Mine that it happened. I think Iwas in stages one and two, yeah,
and so I said to her, you reallywant me to believe that there

(30:28):
was a bank that the bank wasstolen? Are you lying to me, to
my face? And she said, No, wow,there was somebody passing fake
$10 bills. And, you know, lies,they wanted.
Oh yeah, the biggest fish in thestory, the biggest fish in the
world. I'm telling you so. Sowhat changes? Because you guys

(30:50):
are doing this for a window oftime. You said, you said this.
Your caregiving kind ofexperience lasted over a nine
year window, because it was acombination of supporting your
dad and then Barry's parents.
God bless you. I feel like, youknow, it's almost like, what
does that book there's like,nine years Yeah, I know she's st
Julia, and this is why we lovedyou in the podcast. We were
like, We love Julia, and we knewwe wanted to hear your side. And

(31:13):
so, so you're doing this. Youand Barry are both working
because I think this is thething. Barry's also a clinical
psychologist. He is both ofthese. These folks are
successful individuals. They'reout doing they're working at the
same time, and there's bankrobberies going on, and so go
ahead question, but you and Iwant this is important at the

(31:35):
time, because you guys are hugeadvocate, yes, for caregivers,
the articles and the books andthings like that, were you
advocating at that time, or isthis the push that pushed you
into the word were you tellingpeople at that time? Were you in
that caregiving space? So Barrywas more than me. He had written

(31:56):
a book on caregiving, reallybecause of his childhood
situation, right? But as we weredoing the caregiving, our kids,
you know, ended up graduating,going to college, and then we
had this opportunity to write abook on caregiving together.
Barry's mother was still around,yeah? So we could use our
current experiences like alittle lived experience. I want

(32:21):
to, we got to take a secondbreak and out because I want to.
I want to go in, because there'sgoing to be a transition too. So
let's take a break. We'll beright back. All right. Looking
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i All right, everybody. We areback here with Julia, and I just
want to say, we I like thestages that you said, which is,

(33:30):
there was cursing, crying andthen laughter. So we've gotten
into a little laughter. Therewas a moment there we were
cursing and crying. This, thestory is amazing. Yeah, we're in
another stage now. So we're inanother stage, so you're
evolving, and you're getting inand Barry's Barry was the first
lead into caregiving, and as faras, like, writing articles and

(33:51):
things like that, and I'm surethat was probably therapeutic
for him as well, and just tryingto manage that relationship with
his mom. So Steve passes, andnow it's just Jean, right? God
bless us. It's just Jean atthe apartment. This is actually
where all the financial stuffreally starts happening, like to
me about the money andand she starts to decline

(34:16):
because she also has vasculardementia. Wow, yeah. So we have
her in the apartment. We'rewe're starting. Thank goodness
she had long term careinsurance, really money. So we
were able to get AIDS in, inaddition to the babysitter, who
continued to see her weekly,whatever, no boundaries,

(34:39):
we had the AIDS coming in, andwe were spending more and more
time there, andwe set up a system that really
worked. Well, you know, we had anotebook, which I highly
recommend to people, so thatwhen the aides would be done
with their shift, they couldsort of write a paragraph about
what went and the next.

(35:00):
Aid could come in, or if one ofus was coming in, we could see
what was going on. Because Jeanstopped being a very good
reporter about what washappening. She would have a fall
and not want to tell us, and I'dsee her arm was all black and
blue, and I'd say, whathappened? Nothing, of course.
No, yeah. Well, you know, wasshe? Was she combative? And I

(35:21):
don't mean combative, likephysically, but do you think
really was she just, did sheremain? Did there feel like
there was an ounce of gratitude,or did everything feel like a
fight for throughout thiscaregiving experience? Because I
think this is so important, mostpeople are like, Oh, well, you
know, we had a hard time. Butwhat would you assess that to be
itwas tough a lot of the time. She

(35:42):
was combative. She lost a lot,and she had a hard life. Her her
husband. Before Steve died ofbrain tumor, right? He was a
single mom. She was rushing andshe married, rushing around,
managing everything. She marriedSteve. Steve had his issues,
right? Probablyhad a drinking problem. He had
PTSD from fighting in Korea, andhe was a guy in a lot of

(36:05):
depression. Yeah, and she babydid, I think she didn't get out
of life what she really washoping for when they were living
in that community in Florida andtraveling the world. I think she
was living her dream. It's justnot, not what it should have
been, because she really didn'thave the money to live that
dream. Yeah,she did for a while, but then,

(36:28):
you know, it felt like, I think,a major step down to move up
near us, andshe, she was unhappy, so a lot
of the time she would push back,and especially with Barry, yeah.
So one day, I was looking at herpill box just as an example, and
I noticed that the pills were inall wrong. All the pink ones
were in one box and the yellowones were all in another box,

(36:51):
and suddenly the pill box wasset up by color, which was not
how the pills should be taken.
Yeah. And I said to her,this, this isn't, this is not
how the pills should be. And andBarry said, we're going to take
over your pill box. And shesaid, No, I can still do it. I,

(37:11):
you know, don't take everythingaway from me like I'm a child,
you know.
And so I said to her, you know,it would really make me feel
less worried. If you let me doit, if I could do it, would make
me feel good, yeah. And becauseI said it like that, she was
okay with it. So then we startedmanaging her pill box, yeah.

(37:32):
So there were things like that.
She wasn't a monster, but shewas a no. And I think that's the
thing, is that when you haveagain, I go back to that. You
were that bridge between her andBarry in that relationship. That
was a relationship struggle fromlong time ago that was just, it
was just, it was not what heprobably it was not what he

(37:55):
probably hoped for. It wasprobably not what she hoped for,
but it was what she was able togive and, and, and sometimes we
can't put our expectations onour expectations of what we want
on other people. You just haveto be like, well, this is the
bar. And so it sounds like youwere such a great person to come
in and, and, God bless you. Havethe patience of Job to really,

(38:19):
and I think would you say thatyou know your background really
helped you in navigating thisprocess as a psychologist and
working because, I mean, if Iknow in your bio, we didn't
read, we didn't read all thethings that you've dealt with,
but I mean, you've worked withindividuals who you know,
individual marital therapy andworking with people who have

(38:41):
eating disorders and troubledmarriages. I mean, this is a
troubled marriage between Barryand his mother, if you really
think about it,using that skill set to help
you. Yes, and it was much easierfor me to do that than Barry,
because mother, not my mother,had a little more perspective
and space. Yeah, I could, Icould not take it all

(39:04):
personally. Um, it didn't hurtme. If she was rude to me, I
actually expected it, whereas hekept hoping they could improve
their relationship. So it wouldhurt him when she would, yeah,
you know, that's so interesting,the way you put it though,
because I take any any type ofconflict with our mom, any words
I do take personally, and foryou to be able to say as an

(39:27):
outsider, although you arefamily, I was able to separate
myself and not take itpersonally, and that really gave
you a different view of theprocess. Did Did she ever move
in with you guys, or did shealways stay in her apartment?
Where? How did that progress?

(39:47):
She stayed in her apartmentuntil we she really declined,
and we moved her to a very nicenursing home,
although, and then she wasreally pretty out of it. You
know, we would her. And.
Yeah and all, but yeah, we stillhad a lot of management to do,
because she would fall out ofbed, right? I like, you know,
you're still a caregiver whenyour loved one is in a facility.

(40:08):
Yes, preach, yes. Wejust talked about it in another
episode. Our mom has been therenow for a year, and we were
like, not what we thought it wasgoing to be. Did not realize,
and it's just a shift. It's anevolution in care. And I think
that's really important forpeople to think, because, just
because somebody is in a skillednursing facility or at a

(40:30):
congregate setting where there'spaid staff to do it differently,
like 24/7 they all got shifts,and nursing doesn't mean it's
smooth. Yeah,no. So things change. Doctors
have to be called. Follow up hasto happen. You have to find out.
After she fell out of bed, didshe have to get an x ray, or was

(40:50):
she okay? You know, is heeating? Is she eating too much?
She whatever? Yeah.
So, you know, I think we're, Ican't believe we're at our time
of her sister, my favorite partbecause, but I think we've got
this professional on here, andbecause she's got lived
experience caring for someone.
And I would say, I would imaginethe different. There is

(41:13):
significant difference caringfor your dad versus caring for
Jean. And you know, it soundedlike your dad was, and I'm not
talking about because He's yourdad. I also I'm talking about
more of like, these are twohuman beings. One is a bit more
combative, and one sounds atouch more compliant or

(41:34):
appreciative. And I think that'sdiffering, that's differing
experiences. And do you thinkthat supporting your dad helped
you to manage and support notonly gene and Steve, but also
support Barry through this?
It may have Yeah. I mean, my mydad, it was a strange thing, but

(41:56):
I spent more time with him thanI had in years.
I felt closer to him in those 15months that he survived mom. So
when he died, it was sad, but itwas also he wanted to be with
her. You know, yeah, they wereso different with Jean, because
she was more combative. I feellike, of course, we had our

(42:19):
moments where we got along,where we could have a life, you
know, I really tried, and Iwould highly recommend a sense
of humor with caregiving,because it really helps, and it
also gives you some perspective,you know, the bank robbery
thing, it did make me upset whenshe told me to my face, yeah.
And I did say, you know, I treatyou with dignity and respect,

(42:41):
and I feel like doing that withme, and it really hurts my
feelings. And I, I did getpulled in, but generally
speaking, I, I tried not to, andI and I tried to have a sense of
humor as much as I could, evenwhen she was struggling, because
I also had a lot of compassionfor him, for her, yeah, and
maybe it was, like you said,related to the compassion I had

(43:04):
for my dad, you know, losing hiswife of 50 something years.
Yeah, I had a lot of compassionfor her, so it made it easier to
tolerate her, her misery. Yeah,I think that's it. I think
misery is a good way to say itwhen somebody is just miserable
because they're not happy withthe situation. It can make
caregiving much more difficult.

(43:27):
And I think that's, you know,there are times that our mom is
absolutely, I swear to you,she's miserable. And so there is
nothing positive that you cansay, because she's just
genuinely unhappy because shehas no control of the
Parkinson's well, and shedoesn't. I think one of the big
issues is she doesn't want to becared for. No having to have a
caregiver makes her angry thatsomeone has to be that she's an

(43:51):
independent cuss, yeah, and so Iget it. I get it honest, Julia,
I again, there's a reason I'mthe fourth favorite, and so I'm
just like her. I am literallyjust like my mom. I'm strong
willed and opinionated, and Ireally believe in my own
opinion, and so, and so does mymom, and so, needless to say, so
I want to ask, let's, let's jumpthrough a couple of questions,

(44:11):
because, again, like I said,we've got this great
professional here, and so Ithink, and I jotted down a
couple of things here.
You know, I want to talk aboutadvice that you would give. What
would what would be like? Thetop three things that you would
tell caregivers to say, theseare the things that I would
advise you to do. And it doesn'thave to be in a category. Top

(44:35):
three things you're like, if youdo anything, do these three
things.
Okay? Shorthand, because I couldtalk about each of them forever.
Yeah, I know the first one is doyour best to not take their
suffering personally and absorbit yourself. It's their
suffering. You see it, you honorit. But it doesn't mean even

(44:56):
when it comes out at you, youdon't have to take it in you.
Can do that thing thattherapists do, which is, it
seems like you're really upset,you don't have to
absorb it. Yeah.
The second thing is, alwaysremember to be empathic and
compassionate even when you'rereally angry at them, even when

(45:16):
they've disappointed you orfrustrated you
extensively. Remember that theseare people who are suffering,
and like you were describingwith regard to your mom, so much
loss, so much that they wereproud of, that was part of the
identity that they don't haveanymore, and it hurts them, and
yeah, one way that they actedout is with aggression,

(45:40):
and you just try to respond withcompassion. And the third and
most important thing is, ifyou're a caregiver, get support.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Yeah, absolutely. Talk to peopleto share with people who
understand what you are dealingwith. You
know, one of my questions isalways about preserving

(46:01):
relationships. And it's notnecessarily with the person
you're caring for, because myrelationships and it even is
with Natalie and Emily, myhusband, my kids, my step kids.
How you got nine? You got nineyears you're with Barry. You got
your kids. Tell me aboutpreserving your relationships.
How do you do that? Husband andkids. Husband, kids, your you

(46:25):
know your siblings. How are youpreserving your your people? The
key is communication. Alwaystalk about it. Bring up the
difficult things and just havethe conversation. I had to
confront my siblings on somethings that were happening that
weren't so good.
And and I had to say to myyounger brother, you need to

(46:49):
call dad. You need to make sometrips out, or you will regret it
later, because he was sort ofavoiding the situation. Yeah.
And Barry's brother, same thing.
He was avoiding the situation.
And we really had to push him toget so, you know, there's just

(47:09):
that kind of thing. Yeah, and I,how did you What were the little
things? Because, what were thethings that you did to preserve
your family, bury the kids,because, again, they were so
younger or in high school, andover these years and they went
into college, how did youprotect your family unit? Does

(47:30):
that make sense? How did youknow together, like, how keep
your family so same thing,communication. So my kids would
help out when they were homewith my mother in law. My mother
in law adores, adored my son.
Yeah, they put red hair and andso he would go over there and
sit with her, and he was verypatient. And I felt like it was
a good lesson for him. A lot ofconversation, Barry and I, like

(47:53):
I said, we would talk each otheroff the cliff, but we would also
talk to each other and and focusin you know, when you're not
doing the caregiving in thoserare moments you want to be
mindful of what else you'redoing. Are you taking a walk and
looking at nature? Are yougetting a peaceful dinner? Were
you whatever it is you want tobe in the moment? I love that.
You know. I know that you andBarry are getting ready to

(48:17):
publish a book this coming July.
I'm so excited because we've gota bunch of books behind us.
They're all caregiving books,and we're JJ, and I have talked
about doing a book club, and Ifeel like you and Barry are
going to need to come back tobook club when you do that, and
so you've got the AARP, this isin conjunction with them,

(48:40):
caregiver answer book, give methe spill and tell me what it
is, because it's different. It'sdifferent. It's not just a book.
It's not It's a magic. It'smagical.
It is all of the questions thatwe can remember that everyone's
ever asked us about caregivingwhen we've in our in our client
work with our neighbors andfriends at a barbecue, walking

(49:02):
down the street. Wait a minute,Julie, I have a question for
you. Or even when we presentedin the past on previous books,
every question that people askus, so that, if you're a new
caregiver, you open this bookand you flip to I need to
understand the finances. I needto understand how to talk to a
doctor. I need to know how toset my home up, because mom is

(49:23):
moving in,and it's all there, all the
questions, all the basic andsomewhat advanced questions that
caregivers have. We hope wecovered as much as Mom's got.
Let me ask you this. I'm goingto interrupt you.
Moo, is this a caregiver bookfor just aging, or is this a
caregiver in general? So if Ihad a loved one that was chronic

(49:47):
illness, complex illness, SMI,se, I say, SMI, Su, do I
apologize, because that's my mylingo for health care, substance
use disorder, serious mentalillness and aging. Is this an
intellectual.
With disability, or people onthe spectrum, individuals that
have disabilities or differentabilities. Is this a book that
is? Is a good question forcaregivers of all shapes and

(50:10):
sizes. There are lots ofquestions for anyone who is a
caregiver. There are chapters.
There's a chapter on dealingwith someone with dementia.
There's a chapter on dealingwith spousal caregiving. There
are, you know, various thingsthat might not apply if you
have, let's say, an adult childWho but a lot of other parts of
the book. Do the financial part,does the preparing your home?

(50:32):
Yay, just the self care chaptercertainly applies to every
caregiver. So yeah, for the mostpart, it's for anyone well. And
I think Jay, the reason I askedthat question is because people
think of AARP, and they think ofsenior and I want to make sure
that people don't see this asthis new resource and think, Oh,
that's not really me. That's notmy situation. Because I think

(50:53):
there's a lot of golden nuggetsthat you're going to be able to
take away well. And I just wantto touch things. We got the
preview of it and littlecomputer. And I just want to say
to go along with it. It reallyis. It's like the Bible, you
know, you got that concordance.
Like, if I'm going to murder momtoday, oh, let's go and, you
know, figure that out. Oh, if Ineed to make a meal, let's look

(51:14):
at the bread and wine.
There's my laughter for the day.
Okay, I love that. Yeah, yeah.
So I'm looking forward to it. Ialso want to make sure you guys
have other stuff out there, alot like we said, meditations
for caregivers, love and meaningand the articles that you
publish, I just cannot give youenough kudos if you if you're
not part of it. Barry, some ofthe articles that both you guys

(51:37):
do are just so helpful, andthey're short. It's kind of like
the answer book, you're acaregiver, you have minimal
time. You just need a perk.
These are the things that youguys do just that are just
inspiring. Yep, I'm going to saythank you from from all the
caregivers, because we readthem, we share them on our
social media. So you guys willhave seen probably Barry is very
publishes a ton of articles, andso we shamelessly share them,

(52:02):
because the reality is, isthere's lots of great resources
out there, and you should readthem all like, read like, find
the resources that work for you,not you won't just find one
thing from one person. Like, welove we we love that you listen
to podcasts. But we also havelots of other folks that were
like, Oh, listen to this person,or go to this website. This is

(52:24):
awesome resource, because thisis where we've learned. And I
think that's so important, I'mgoing to finish us up with the
very last and most importantquestion, because Julia probably
knows what the question is,because she's listened to
Barry's podcast. But Julia, whatis your favorite guilty
pleasure? What is the thing thatyou love to do just for
yourself?

(52:48):
Hmm,wow, I love to read, so maybe
walk and read and not have anylimit on it, like, not just an
hour, but whatever amount oftime. Oh, do you hide and read
like, do you take like, tea orcoffee? I always want to ask
that, do you have to get? Do youhave a space?
Spaces? Yes,you know my green tea actually?

(53:08):
Yeah. I got, I get, I getprepared to read this comes in,
yeah. JJ, does? She is? I haveher red chair on loaner, by far,
she's building her house, and Ikeep telling her that the Beagle
and I have decided we're keepingit, and so she'll be ready to
get somewhere else, but it isthe most comfy chair, and I just
love sitting in it. And myhusband will come and visit me

(53:31):
in my office, and he'll sit init like that is the conference
chair that we'd like when wehave discussions. You know, I
think it's so important when Ialways say, What's your favorite
guilty pleasure? That is code.
It's another way of saying, whatis the thing that you do for
yourself? It is self care. And Ihate self care, because people
it feels like overused, likecollaboration is overused, and

(53:51):
but this is truly about healthand wellness, and that reading
is pouring into yourself becauseit's stimulating and it brings
you joy. And so for me, I alwayssay your guilty pleasure is the
thing that does bring you joy,and you should take some time
for yourself.
Joy. Guilty about it. No, that'sthat's what makes it such an
ironic statement. So, Julia,thank you so much for being with

(54:14):
us. You are so wonderful. Welove you as much as we love
Barry. So you are now officiallya sister, yes. And because
everybody has no free will.
You're exactly right. So whetheryou want to be and actually, I'm
gonna have Julia come take careof me, Jason,
I like Julia. I'm gonna need I'mgonna need you to help finish
me, because I feel like I mightbe a little helpful. You've been
warned.
Thank you so much for having meon. This has been a joy.

(54:36):
Absolutely, guys, thanks so muchfor listening in and until the
next time,we'll see you next time. Bye.
Well, friends, that's a wrap onthis week's confession. Thanks
so much for listening in to thepodcast, but before you go,
please take a moment to leave usa review and tell your friends
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(54:59):
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We'll see you next Tuesday whenwe come together to confess
again. Till then, take care ofyou. Okay, let's talk

(55:20):
disclaimers. We are not medicalprofessionals and are not
providing any medical advice. Ifyou have medical questions, we
recommend that you talk with amedical professional of your
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reluctant caregiver have takencare in selecting the speakers,

(55:40):
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(56:04):
a reluctant caregiver podcast.
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