April 8, 2025 • 44 mins
Maura Casey opens a window into her 39-year sobriety journey with raw honesty and gentle wisdom. As a journalist who worked for prestigious publications like The New York Times and Hartford Courant, Maura's story reveals how professional success intertwined with her recovery from growing up in what she calls a "tumultuous" Irish family where "alcohol was the seventh member."
The conversation takes us through Maura's childhood, where drinking at age 13 was normalized within her family culture. We witness her awakening moment at 28 when she realized her drinking was following her father's destructive pattern, prompting her sobriety journey. What follows is a masterclass in emotional sobriety—the deeper work beyond simply putting down the drink.
Shelby and Maura explore the transformative power of establishing healthy boundaries after years of people-pleasing tendencies. Their discussion illuminates the crucial distinction between guilt ("I did something bad") and shame ("I am bad"), offering listeners practical insights into healing these emotional wounds. The conversation weaves through making amends, changing behaviors, and finding pride in breaking generational patterns of alcoholism.
Perhaps most powerful is Maura's reflection on writing her memoir, "Saving Ellen," which chronicles her family's journey through addiction, illness, and recovery. She shares how her sister Ellen followed her into sobriety, demonstrating the ripple effect our personal healing creates. Whether you're newly sober or decades into recovery, this episode reminds us that showing up authentically each day is a miracle worth celebrating. Subscribe now and join our community of confident, sober women discovering their true potential.
Find Maura's memoir "Saving Ellen" available April 1st from Skyhorse Publishing. Connect with her at CaseyInk.com or email AuthorMKCasey@gmail.com.
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Oh, and by the way, if you didn’t know, my remote Neurofeedback Therapy program is up and running. Learn more here!
If you aren't part of the Confident Sober Women Facebook group, it's a great place to be. There are over a thousand other sober women there building lives they don't want to escape from. Come on over and join us.
And if you haven't read my memoir, grab a copy today and maybe a second one for a friend. There is so much hope in recovery, and I shared my story so raw and vulnerable so that others would know they aren't alone and that there is a way to live well, manage relationships, parent your kids, and have a healthy body, all while staying sober. Grab a copy of Recovering in Recovery: The Life-Changing Joy of Sobriety wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello and welcome to the Confident Sober Women
podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common, and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection.
(00:30):
So we know we are no longeralone.
In this podcast, you will heara real life talk about building
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk.
Hey there, sober ladies, thankyou so much for joining me today
for the Confident Sober Womenpodcast, and I'm introducing you
(00:52):
today to my friend, mara Casey.
She is an amazing writer.
She worked for the newspapersthe Hartford Courant and the New
York Times.
She's won big national andregional awards and then, in
2020, she discovered some of herold diaries that she had kept
(01:12):
as a teenager and really startedto lean into writing a book
called Saving Ellen, a memoir ofhope and recovery that was
published on April the 1st.
So you can look for thatwherever you buy your books.
Maura is just a breath of freshair who's been sober for a very
long time.
We get into the concepts aroundboundaries, around making
(01:35):
amends, how to speak up forourselves how we change when we
do this work of emotionalsobriety.
There's a lot in thisconversation, including a lot of
our personal experiences withthat, and you know descriptions
of her history and why she wrotethe book.
So grab your big glass of wateror your favorite mocktail and
(01:56):
join me for this conversationwith Mara Casey.
Hey, it's me Shelby.
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Well, hey there, maura.
This is so great to have youhere today for the Confident,
sober Women podcast.
I know my audience is going tolove our conversation today
already, just from what you andI were talking about in our
pre-meeting, and I'm going toturn the mic over to you now and
(03:46):
let you share a little bit moreabout your story, and then
we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Hey, shelby, so great to be here.
Thanks so much for having me.
Welcome to my barn.
I live in a small farm inConnecticut and this is my barn
and I get the second floor andmy husband has his man cave on
the first floor.
So this is my domain, but thisis a great topic for me.
(04:10):
I've been a happy sober drunkfor 39 and a half years.
It's been a long time, but Ialways remember my childhood,
which was I grew up in a bigIrish family.
There were six kids.
My mother had six kids in sevenyears, god bless her and
(04:31):
alcohol was actually the seventhmember of the family.
It was present at everyoccasion and it was the reliable
member to help us celebrate.
The reliable member to help uscelebrate.
It was there to help us grieve.
It was there all the time and Iused to come downstairs
sometimes and see in the morningwhen everybody had been
(04:55):
drinking.
And when I got old enough whichwas 13, thank you very much I
was drinking right along witheverybody else.
There'd be the whiskey bottleright in the middle of the
kitchen table with the glassesand whatever strewn around.
So it's been a long road.
My childhood was prettytumultuous.
(05:18):
My father had a drinkingproblem that got worse when my
sister was diagnosed with kidneydisease in the mid-60s early on
, and she was a real firecracker.
Ellen was a spitfire.
She was always running around,always yelling and always
climbing trees and things likethat, and she grew very rapidly
(05:40):
diminished under kidney disease,which we were told was terminal
.
And at that time there was verylittle in the way of organ
transplants.
That was considered the medicalequivalent of walking on the
moon.
There was no organ procurementsystem.
If a doctor wanted to try atransplant and wanted to find a
(06:01):
cadaver kidney in New York Statehe had to call every one of the
400 hospitals that thereexisted to find do you have a
kidney?
It was even against the law totake kidneys, cadaver kidneys,
across state lines.
So if you lived two miles froma state line and there was one
right over the line, it mighthave been against the law to
(06:23):
bring it.
So there's many, many obstacles.
It was very early in this sortof medical field and my mother,
you know, watched my father kindof fall apart.
He began to have a very publicaffair.
He was he, you know, becamealcoholic and she was determined
to save Ellen.
That was her determination.
My mom was a World War II Armyvet and she was going to do it.
(06:46):
So that's the subject of thebook I wrote.
But as I got into the book whichis Saving Ellen, a memoir of
open recovery, I realized thatthe drinking had so much more to
do with the turmoil than simplythe situation.
And I began to drink when I was13.
(07:07):
And it wasn't seen as realdeviant at that time.
I mean now, as a mother, I mean, it kind of blows my mind, but
it was so much a fabric of ourlives that nobody thought it was
a big deal that a 13, 14,15-year-old would be drinking.
And in fact at the time it wasseen as something like well,
(07:30):
they'll learn to handle it athome, which is not true.
What it does is set you up asbeing more likely for problems
later on which in my case didoccur, which in my case did
occur.
And I had an experience.
I became a journalist.
I went to a journalismconference when I was 28, and I
(07:53):
said I had begun to be worriedabout my drinking and I said,
okay, I'll just have one, maybetwo.
Well, you know, I got togetherwith friends.
It was near Christmas.
We were at a beautifulrestaurant on the Annapolis
waterfront.
There were the lights, theships.
It was glorious.
(08:14):
I had one, then I had another,then I had another, and in the
bus ride home to the hotel wherewe were all staying, somebody
pulled on a case of champagnewhich I decided you know, I
gotta, I gotta, help finish thisoff.
And so by the time I stumbled inbed I felt so awful.
(08:37):
Every time I closed my eyes Ifelt nauseated.
Every time I opened them theroom would literally spin and I
just said I'm becoming a drunklike dad.
I'm becoming a drunk like dad.
It was a real kind of a come toJesus moment.
So I just stopped.
And he the blessing for meisn't just stopping, not going
(09:13):
to AA immediately, not doinganything like that was that my
husband then and now is veryeasy for a recovering person to
live with because you know he'sItalian, he doesn't care about
drinking.
He, you know he might have abeer every two weeks to keep his
hand in, he doesn't care.
(09:35):
So it wasn't like I was livingwith somebody who drank or
wanted to drink as much as I didand I had to fight temptation
every day.
The temptation really kind ofdidn't exist, at least in our
house, which helped a lot.
But that's my little drunk logand how I kind of got started
(09:56):
and took off from there.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Thank you so much for sharing all that in such a
vulnerable way.
That's truly how it works, andthat's what we learn for sure,
like hearing other people'sstories and learning that we are
never alone in this world.
There's always plenty of people, although many of the stories
are so different.
It took me a long, long, longtime to ever even hear my story,
but it's out there.
(10:19):
So did you?
How did you get sober?
Did you use like a program orjust cold turkey?
What did you?
How did you get sober?
Did you use like a program orjust cold turkey?
What did you do?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
well, at first it was just like white knuckling it.
Um, I had been uh pete and Iactually I always say this we
met in a homeless shelter.
We were not clients, we wereboth hired to work in a homeless
shelter and after about threeyears I decided I wanted to be a
journalist instead of, you know, in counseling, a counselor and
(10:49):
and so I knew about thefoundations of the program.
I had actually attended theRutgers School of Alcohol
Studies and so I knew all that.
But it took me a while and ittook.
I was very shy about going toAA and it took while and it took
.
I was very shy about going toAA and it took.
(11:10):
You know, it took some friends.
I made friends who were alsosober.
I knew a couple of people whowere sober and they helped me go
to AA, and it was easier to goto AA with someone.
I found it, at least for me.
I found it much easier to gowith somebody who I could kind
of tie a knot to and hang on,and we don't talk often enough,
(11:32):
I think, about the power ofexample, the example of people
who are sober.
There was a woman who had won aPulitzer Prize and she was a
journalist and I had noticed herand she was kind of my ideal of
who I wanted to be like.
She was an opinion writing theway I was and when I first
(11:53):
offered to buy her a drinkbefore I stopped she said no,
thank you.
She said I like life to go byits own pace and I always
remembered that and I wanted tobe like her.
So it helped me a lot to havean example of a person I wanted
to be like and to eventuallyhave a friend or two and go to
(12:14):
AA meetings.
And I have never yet gone to abad AA meeting.
And it's amazing in an AAmeeting you can see other people
just do these subtle littleinterventions to help people, to
say I am with you in what foryou is still a dark night.
(12:35):
I am with you and that'shealing for me as well, even if
I didn't need thoseinterventions just being there
and having somebody turn to a.
I remember one time this onewoman always used to knit during
AA meetings and she had herknitting needles.
She was in like her sixties andwhich then to me was old, and
(12:59):
she turned to a young woman whohad been, had stopped about
eight days earlier and had beenon drugs, and she just said to
her we're glad you're here.
You know just that we're gladyou're here, and knowing you can
go to a place where someonewill always be able to say we're
(13:21):
glad you're here is support inand of itself.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Oh, I totally agree.
That's how I got sober too,because back then we only had,
you know, rehab and AA.
There wasn't any other options,like today we have all these
modern things and it's so, it'sso great to see the different
things emerging with Quitlet and, you know, dry January and you
know, sober programs andSheRecovers.
There's so many, there's somany options now we have, like
we can get our hands into a lotof things, depending on what
(13:46):
fits our you know desire, whatour need at that time.
And then and then sometimes weage and stage and we want
something else, you know later.
And, like I always say, takelike a layered approach, you
know, to things, because youknow we need multiple things,
often not just one thing, and sowhatever works that's going to
make you begin to do the workright, that emotional sobriety
which is what we are here alwaystalking about, and so kind of,
(14:13):
like I mentioned before, Ialways feel, like you know, that
early sobriety work is so hardon my opinion.
I mean it just is.
There's a lot going onphysically, there's a lot going
on like emotionally.
Usually there might even be,like you know, might be in
trouble, there might be bills topay or legal problems or god
knows what you know maritalissues or whatever is happening,
family stuff and so just a lot.
There's just a lot going onduring that early, that first
(14:33):
year, right, and you start tofeel better.
Um, in 30 days you know you'reas sober as you're ever going to
get, but you know you're, youhave to relearn.
I always say to relearn how tolive life.
That's know, in AA they do saythings like it's a design for
living that really works and Itruly believe that because I
know I had to relearn.
You know how to feed myselfproperly and like how to you
know not exercise six times aday or something, or like you
(14:56):
know skincare and like you knowjust appropriate things, how to
be an adult.
And so once you get past thatlike kind of first year time and
like that one to five yearrange for most of us it really
is this like big awakening, likekind of the fog is lifted.
We start to clear out, you know,and really begin to wonder like
oh gosh, like what do, what doI want to do now?
(15:18):
Or who am I now?
You know, these are questionsum, that kind of come up, or
like you know, what do I want mylife to?
Because now we have options,you know, now we have, we have
choices today, now, um.
So I'm just wondering maybe youhad that same experience and if
you can say a little bit moreabout what that was like for you
and kind of how that playedinto maybe your relationships
and, um, you know, anything else?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
well, I had a brother who I was very fond of, but he
was um, he just loved drinking.
And when I would start talkingabout sobriety I always had the
feeling that he was either goingto thrust a crucifix in front
of my face or get garlic andwear garlic around his neck like
warding off the vampire.
(15:59):
So but I always said to him youknow, it's okay, I mean, the
water's fine, it's not as bad asyou think.
But I realized that I reallyshouldn't say anything unless I
was asked, because first, it'spreachy and obnoxious and second
(16:21):
, I believe again in the powerof example.
He could see me, he could seethat I was happy and healthy and
doing my thing and that wasgreat, great.
But I found I needed more workon my family relationships in
the sense that I feel like I'msuch a people pleaser and I was
(16:44):
kind of trained that way in away and that was my role in the
family.
It helped me a lot to readadult children of alcoholics,
that whole thing.
Lot to read adult children ofalcoholics, that whole thing.
And in fact when I was at theRutgers School of Alcohol
Studies, the author, janetWoditz, first gave a
presentation.
(17:05):
It was like the first time shepresented her research and
there's about 300 people in theaudience and you could see in
different corners would read offsomething you could hear like a
shriek from this corner and onefrom that corner was really
funny.
Everybody was reacting to itand some people dismiss it as
(17:26):
being an ordinary list ofneuroses, but I thought it was
useful Because it gives me someideas of how I was reacting, in
a way, only because I wasaccustomed to that, instead of
really giving careful thought.
Do I really want to do this?
(17:47):
Do I really want to be withthis person?
If that person's overtlynegative all the time, why do I
have to be with them?
Where is that written?
You know, and just questioningthings that I didn't question
before and that felt likeputting on a new suit and it
wasn't comfortable, but Irealized it was also.
(18:08):
It was healthy.
It was learning new ways torelate to others and new ways to
be in a healthy, sober world.
So I don't know if it's likeriding a bike, but I sure did
need some training wheels.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I love how you describe that and I think that
is relatable for most of us.
What you're really talkingabout are boundaries.
You know that's kind of theformal term for what you're
sharing and you know, maybe somepeople are already doing these
kinds of things and they don'tcall it that.
But you know, in the kind ofclinical world and you know, and
the personal development world,we do call it that.
And you're right, like so manypeople who are living in
(18:48):
alcoholic homes or who have anykind of like dysfunction, like
that's majorly impactful in ourfamilies, like dysfunction like
that's majorly impactful in ourfamilies, and then even not like
maybe you just have like anover you know zealous mom who is
, you know, sort of helicopter-yor just like very anxious or
you didn't get a very secureattachment.
There might be a development ofpeople pleasing that comes,
(19:11):
that you develop, and some of itmight be even personality style
too.
So it's like multiple things whythat might happen.
And's very, and I think, womenin general.
It's a generalization yes dohave a lot of this because you
know we get that kind of um bentof being, you know, nurturing
and caring and want to take careof people and all that stuff
and not not all women, butthat's like a generalization and
(19:33):
so then it becomes um kind ofpart of our culture as women or
females sometimes to be like theone who does all the things you
know, or who's always thecaretaker or always the yes
woman or um, and you're rightlike, and then you throw, you
know, alcoholism on top of itand drug addiction and
(19:53):
dysfunction and mental health,and you know it becomes really
unclear about, like what arewhat is my role and what are my
things, you know my issues todeal with and what are somebody
else's.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
That becomes very unclear very unclear and but at
some point, at some point inlives, with all the stuff we're
doing and I get it, we're allbusy we have to just say what do
I want Now?
If what you want to do is burndown your neighbor's house, I
encourage you not to do that.
But if what you want is, youknow, I just want the freedom to
(20:31):
go away for a weekend, I justwant you know, I want my husband
to help me with the dishes, Iwant you know.
I mean, it's okay.
It is okay to have normal wantsand needs and to meet the needs
of your life without feelingguilty about it, without feeling
(20:51):
that unnecessary feeling, thatunnecessary burdensome guilt.
That is not constructive.
You don't even have to put avalue on it.
You can just say to yourselfit's not constructive to my life
to feel this way and to justbegin to make a list and pursue
(21:13):
a few of those things.
There's nothing wrong with thatand you know what.
It's your life and you have tofigure out how you want to lead
it and live it sooner or later.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and I would recommend sooner in this, this
area, because we get this is abig cause of like burnout.
You know I feel like a lot ofpeople, particularly women, if
you're trying to manage, youknow maybe you have children or
you're.
You know you're trying to builda career or manage.
You know, run your marriage orwhatever's happening, we all
(21:51):
we're busy and so you know we're, we get strung out.
And when we live our lives likethat, like when we become like
the guest woman or we just or wehave so much guilt and shame
because of our disease, likemaybe there was things that you
missed out on or you were likenot reliable before, and so, um,
parts of that like can be great.
(22:12):
They can be a driving forcetowards like oh okay, now I do
want to show up.
You know, now I want to be theof that like can be great.
They can be a driving forcetowards like oh okay, now I do
want to show up.
You know, now I want to be theperson that like helps my mom,
you know, because I want to bethat for her, because she's she
needs my help.
Or you know I want to be a morepresent mom.
You know things like that.
And so there's there's goodthings about that.
But if there's other parts ofyou that haven't resolved, some
(22:32):
of that like shame and guilt,which is what a lot of this can
be about, that's just unresolvedtrauma and shame then you might
be doing things for like thewrong reasons.
That's what the whole point is,you know, if you're like always
saying yes, or you're alwaysletting someone treat you and
because really boundaries, likethe definition of it, really is
like letting other people knowhow to treat you you're
(22:52):
basically teaching the otherpeople in your world how to
treat you, and so when we dothat, in whatever way that is,
we are letting people know thisis how it's okay to treat me.
So, for example, if you have, ifyou're in a relationship, and
you let your partner, you know,scream and yell at you, and
that's just something, thatthat's the way he's always
talked to you, or maybe he'slike overly critical or
(23:15):
something, and you, you haveallowed that for all of your
relationship.
It's gonna it's gonna be achallenge, it's not impossible,
for sure, but you've allowedthat to go on.
So he has learned right to likethat you.
It's okay to treat you that way,it's okay, you're okay with
that.
And so what we do is we startto undo that, untangle that
(23:35):
through our work, likeemotionally, with really great
clinical work and things likeEMDR and neurofeedback therapy
and, you know, aa, whateverrecovery materials, to start to
really change those thinkingpatterns and heal the trauma so
that you can start to see, ohgosh, no, I don't, like, I don't
, that's not appropriate, Idon't want anybody to treat me
(23:56):
that way.
And so we come back we circleback in and we start to learn
when certain things happen.
I then say, oh, I don't I,that's not okay with me.
Um, for you to talk to me likethat, like I don't, I don't want
, I don't want anybody umscreaming yell at me.
So we can continue thisconversation, but we're going to
do it like when everybody'scalm and the trouble with that,
(24:17):
and I mean that's a great thing.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
The other trouble with that is that the reaction
is generally not rainbows andunicorns right, because the
people around you will getconfused I always say it's one
of these things where things canget a little worse before it
gets better, because they'll trylike.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
So that's one example , but it could be another thing.
Like work, you know like sayyou have a job and you are
pretty strung out and you'realways the girl that's like.
Your boss calls and said wehave this new project and we
want you to take this on, andyou're like, okay, cool, and
cause you're like, I just reallywant to.
You know, I want to build thiscareer, I have this new, we have
this new employee, we need youto train her.
But you're like, and so you'realways or you take the calls,
(24:57):
you know, after 6, 30 at night,or 7, and you're always one.
You know, you just you alwaysdo it um.
And so now you're starting toget a handle on your life.
You know, maybe you've addedsomething else children, or
something else in your life andyou just don't want to work like
that anymore and you start tosay, actually I don't, I don't,
I'm not going to to do thatanymore, I'm not going to take
phone calls after five or six,whatever, you know, you make
(25:19):
that rule.
Or you start to say, no, you'regoing to get a pushback, right,
they're going to be like, well,what, like she, oh, like shelby
always said yes to this stufflike, and they might get ugly,
right, they might just start tosay like, well, you know I don't
know if you're going to be ableto.
You know, keep working here, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And so like that's.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
There are always consequences for all of our
choices, good and bad.
But it doesn't mean that it'swrong to do it.
You just have to figure out.
This is like a tightrope, right?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, and it's also as you mature in your sobriety
you get better at it.
One thing that is important tomake a distinction between is
the difference between shame andguilt, guilt being maybe what
you did and shame being more whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You know, guilt is I did something bad and shame is I
am bad.
Right Very very important,you're right.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, and just just knowing that, and I felt a lot
of shame about all the drinkingI did when I was so young.
But you know, you kind of haveto forgive myself for that and
understand that it was the timeand it was the culture and it
was, you know, family valuesthat had gone askew my father.
(26:30):
Eventually he didn't quite getsober, but he cut way back on
his drinking and at the end thelast year of his life or so, he
was sober and he just said to mehe felt so guilty about the
things he did that he shouldn'thave and the things that he
didn't do and he should have,that he just couldn't sleep at
(26:53):
night.
And I said to him what you haveto sleep sometime, dad, what
helps you?
And he said I have a rosary andI pray.
I just pray for forgiveness.
And seeing him at the end kindof marinating in guilt and,
frankly, justifiable guilt,because he wasn't that great of
(27:17):
a father he was, he there wasterrible alcoholic scenes at
home and it really made me think.
It really made me be verygrateful that I had stopped at
28, um, early on, before I couldreally make a mess of things.
I had only been married abouttwo years when I stopped and it
(27:39):
was kind of a sight to beholdbecause he was very contrite.
Didn't help me when I was 11,but it made me feel badly for
him and it made it easy for meto forgive him.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Right, and so you just kind of described what that
process of us of we workthrough emotional sobriety again
, in whatever form or programthat you're using, it's through
the steps, right, and so that'slike the formal, you know, 12
step recovery process.
But you're going to be doingvery, very similar work If you,
you know you're in therapy oryou're working through some
other kind of workbook orprogram.
(28:16):
Because what happens is is westart to, you know, we get, we
age in our sobriety, we take alook at all that stuff, and
that's kind of the point of youknow, formally, again through 12
steps, is making amends, right.
So when we get to that likefourth and fifth step time,
which we do need to do things inorder, right.
So, because if we did that,like when we were one month
(28:36):
sober, one week sober, it'sprobably going to be for the
wrong reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
We really do need to you know, give it a minute.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
We need to check in because we are naturally
self-centered.
So once we get to that space,where we are ready, you know, we
have a hard posture of true,true repentance, right, like we
are really remorseful, and we goto the people in our lives and
we say, you know, like look,I've had a chance to really
think about this and I and I um,I'm really sorry for how I
harmed you you know, and againwe're not doing that for
(29:02):
anything back to us.
We're doing it to cleanse ourown palate right and to make
that amends, but that person maynot accept it and that's
they're allowed to.
But then as you progressthrough we get to you know, like
the 10 step was my favoritething of all time.
Right, because it's reallyabout adulting, like how do you
live life?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
how do?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
you do this right, well, you start to um, put in
place things like boundaries.
You start to have things likerestraint of tongue and pen,
right, we start to think beforewe act and speak.
So now we have more discernmentand ability to say like, how
would this maybe be harmful tosomebody if I did that?
Right, and so we get thatwisdom.
But but in all of that too, wewere changing.
(29:40):
We were changing.
And so your dad like same thingfor him, like he changed some,
but he struggled with a lot ofthat guilt from his drinking, as
did you and I both.
But my opinion anyway, maybe abit different one, is you know,
after we do get and stay soberfor a long time and we're doing
this work and we're making whatI call living amends by like
just not doing those thingsanymore, I mean we are a new, we
(30:04):
are kind of clean.
I mean it doesn't change thepast, we didn't, we can't erase
it, but we also aren't in thered anymore, like if we've done
that work and we've changed, andthen we've said our men's
sincerely.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
you know, we get to live on the other side of it, so
right that guilt and shame isnot the driving force now of our
choices anymore and if I actlike a simple jackass, I can't
blame a bottle of whiskey for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
It's just me, yeah exactly, and then we had to take
a look at that and be like, oh,that's like, that's the such,
that's the power of this, thoughlike that's the power of what
we get to do today, because wedo make mistakes all day long,
all the time, and we will messup.
We will say the thing, we willhave the tone.
(30:56):
We will, you know, maybe, maybeeven sometimes like cheat on
our taxes or something, or tryto try to.
You know, cut a.
You know, and the beauty ofbeing sober for a long time,
though, and doing the work, isto get that conscience that
comes in right.
It helps us.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right, it is.
And you know, I am just sograteful.
The one thing I really regretis that as a journalist, I
didn't write about sobriety.
I didn't write about sobriety.
I didn't write about my beingsober because, for, I think, the
first 10 years I felt kind ofashamed.
(31:35):
Ashamed that I had to stop,ashamed that I had gotten to
that place in my life and ittook me a good 10 years to
understand.
You know what?
I did?
Something really cool.
I stopped.
There's generations of myfamily.
If you shake my family tree, adrunk will fall off every branch
and I stopped that in itstracks, at least for me.
(32:00):
And so it was cool.
And so I began to write aboutit, you know, when I was maybe
sober 20 years.
I should have done it sooner,but at least I began to be
comfortable in my own skinenough to be able to write about
it and I just, I just wish Ihad gotten that comfort level
(32:22):
years, years before.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I had pretty much the exact experience.
I got sober at 28 as well.
I was 27.
I turned 27 in rehab and I hadalmost a very exact experience
as far as like the length oftime Now I was doing the work.
I changed a ton.
Everything in my life changed.
I got pregnant when I was sixmonths sober.
I had three kids in four years.
I was doing all the things Idid all the therapy, the
(32:45):
marriage work where I maintainedyou know, we stayed married,
which is, you know, huge, butyet it was just still so much I
remember and I actually, becauseI celebrated my anniversary for
most of those years I haven'treally done that in kind of a
while now, but at my 10-yearanniversary I stood at the
podium and I was pissed off.
(33:06):
I was mad because I just feltlike I was grateful.
I stood at the podium and I waspissed off.
I was mad because I just feltlike I was grateful.
I had all the gratitude.
I understood, but I didn'tthink it would still be this
much work.
Why?
am I not further along why?
Am I still here, like I was,like what is I'm doing it?
I'm showing up to the thing.
Why is why?
Basically, why is life stillhard, you know, and I think I
didn't have enough age and stageyet, even though I was probably
(33:29):
38 by then Right Should have, Iguess, but I did it.
I didn't have enough age andstage to know that life is hard
all the time for most people.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Most all of us, and so I just didn't have that
maturity yet.
Um, but that's the benefit ofbeing in like an older, yes
Cause I wish.
I mean, I have have three youngadults now.
Two daughters are in collegeand one son who's still a junior
in high school.
But I just so want them to geta lot of this way sooner than I
did, you know.
But I don't, I don't know ifit's even possible.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't think it's possible, because they live
their own lives and they will.
You, they'll get it or theywon't.
And what I have found as amother is my most important
thing to realize is that, youknow, I can love them, I gave
life to them, but they get tolive their own lives and they
get to do whatever.
(34:21):
I remember my mother was veryfunny, very funny, and one of
the joys of writing this bookand I reread a bunch of diaries
I kept, you know back in the day, and I still keep is how funny
she was.
And at one point I waslistening to her.
My cousin Ruth was complainingabout her daughter-in-law and my
(34:42):
mother said look, Ruth, yousound like the mother-in-law in
a comic strip.
I wrecked my life, you wreckedyour life.
Let's let the kids wreck theirlives, you know, and every now
and then I think let them wrecktheir lives.
I can't help it.
So it's just detaching in agood way, but always being there
(35:04):
for them, of course.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, yeah, I always say I have to leave something
for the therapist.
You know, yes, yeah, and no onegets out of this life unscathed
, you know if you're a human andyou're living on earth, it's
you know you're going to havehard times, they're going to
have a terrible thing.
You're going to have the toughtimes, you're going to have the
great times.
Joy is wonderful and most of us, I guess, feel like it's more
(35:28):
than the bad, or else maybe, Idon't know, most of us wouldn't
make it.
So we feel like there's morejoy or more times of peace, or
it's more valuable to us to havethat than the bad times, and so
we just keep doing it.
But you know, when we don't dothe things that we know are
going to keep us well, you know,like when we don't have good
spiritual fitness, for me that'sextremely important.
(35:50):
And I think that's actually beena highlight of the last maybe
five years for me personally.
There's been a real change.
I mean, it's always been there,but it's really been a I'm
older B I feel like that hasbeen a big area where I've
invested a lot of time andenergy.
And then also the boundary workthat I've put in place,
particularly in my, in myrelationships, but also just in
(36:10):
my, in my relationship, I guess,specifically in like what I
allow and don't allow, has beenthe most valuable for me.
But I just I do think you'reright Like I and I don't want to
take away the opportunity forthem, my kids, to build like
resilience Cause that's how ithappens Like you can't take away
their pain, even though we wantto, because they need that in
order to get to the other sideright I just want, and kind of
(36:34):
my prayer always is that theywill get a lot of this like
sooner in life but maybe theywill, because I started drinking
heavily you know heavilyalcoholically, kind of you know
whatever at 17 or 16, whatevertime, and so then my emotional
growth got stunted right at thatpoint, and so I lost like 10
years and didn't really startmaturing until 27, and I was
(36:56):
only 16.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
So maybe they'll have a fighting chance of being
better off.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Right?
Well, we can all hope so, right.
And, as you say, leaving alittle for the therapist isn't a
bad thing.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
I mean, that's what I always tell my, I mean
everybody has.
You know, there's no perfectfamily, no perfect parents, no
perfect people, and so, nomatter what, even in the best of
families which there are manyfamilies that are great, they're
doing great things there'sstill the thing, there's still
(37:34):
the one thing you know, or there, it's just the internalization
of the way a one child, um,handled something like though
you know, your same words, yoursame discipline strategy might
have been internalized by one ofthe kids, is very traumatic and
harmful to them and created anegative thinking pattern, right
, whereas another one was likewell, whatever, okay, they
didn't, it didn't matter to them, right?
Like yeah, and so I, you knowthat all just gets developed in
their own way from theirpersonal process and their
(37:56):
experiences that they have yeah,it's always a different prism
they're, they're born withdifferent lenses than we have.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
And you know we're older and and you know I don't
live in Buffalo anymore and evenBuffalo isn't the town that I
grew up in.
You know way back when.
And you know this is the lifethat I've shaped, so it's going
to be different and that's okay.
All I know is, one of the bestdecisions I ever made in my life
(38:28):
was to be sober, and it madeeverything else happen.
My drinking did not encumber mycareer and I ended up working
for the New York Times and had alot of fun, a lot of fun, wrote
a lot of stuff and got to see alot of the world.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And I can look back on it and say, well, you know,
at least drinking didn't screwit up yeah, it's amazing, you
know it's amazing the life wecan create and um, yes, when we
get and stay sober, um, we getthe opportunity to be well, you
know, and unfortunately noteverybody gets that and I think
I try to remember that veryregularly too.
Um, and another thing I reallyhave been focusing on too and
(39:09):
maybe this is relatable is justthe minimization, I think, that
a lot of us do, of like ofshowing up in life.
You know, people will I myselfincluded.
I mean I was like aperfectionist, I mean kind of
like a wackadoodle, crazy mom,you know always had to have all
things.
You know very driven all things, you know very driven, schedule
(39:30):
oriented, all the things.
But you know, I would be hardon myself the first time
something wasn't like great, ormy kid forgot the thing, or I
didn't, I messed up, or you know, and I, I think it's easy to be
like, well, I'm a terrible mom,or I'm not a good worker, or I
let my spouse down, or myparents and all this stuff, and
start to get into that cycle oflike I'm not enough, or I didn't
(39:53):
do it, and like instead ofrealizing.
I say that a lot of people islike you know some people, like
you got up and you showed up andyou were in service to your
family today.
Like you showed up and you youdid.
You woke up and you got out ofbed and you showed up for your
family.
A lot of people don't.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I think we I know it sounds dramatic, but it's very
true, and so I've been reallyfocusing on that and sharing
that so often to help otherpeople realize you know, yeah,
this is a struggle in this lifebut, you're here.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Like you showed up, you came to therapy, hey look at
you, you know Exactly, and justyou, that.
Hey.
Look at you, right, you knowexactly.
And just showing up for thosethose little things and not
being passed out on the couch orwhatever, um, is a big deal a
miracle, big deal it is it isyeah, so um, where are your kids
today?
(40:42):
oh well, they, they're great.
Um, I have twotake-no-prisoners granddaughters
.
One is six and she just neverstops.
I feel like I've run a marathonevery time I babysit her.
And the other one is two littleRiley, riley and Ellie, and my
(41:03):
daughter.
They're my daughter, anna'sdaughter.
Uh, they're my daughter, anna's, um, she works for a medical
device company.
And my brother, my, um, my son,tim, who I named after my two
favorite men, my, my brother,tim, and my husband is, um, a
high school history teacher in akind of an inner city high
(41:23):
school in hartford, and, uh, heloves his kids.
They're mostly lower income andhe loves them and they love him
.
And it's fabulous.
I mean, he's doing the greatwork every day, just being there
, being there for his kids.
So they both are.
I'm real proud of them, but I'mproud of who they are and not
(41:44):
what they do.
I don't care what they do aslong as they are good people.
You know, and, um, you know,I've been married 41 years now.
Pete's still, you know, hangingout with me.
He still has his one beer aweek or whatever it is.
And, um, it's been, it's beengood.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, you're a real warrior there.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I don't know how it happened.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I can't explain it I know I feel the same way.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, I know your book is coming out.
Why don't you just give us thequick synopsis of the book a
little bit more, and maybe do alittle bit of the beginning and
just where?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
people can find it and when Saving Ellen a memoir
of hope and recovery goes intomy crazy Irish blue-collar
childhood in Buffalo, new York,and lots of drinking and lots of
struggles at the end to getsober and do that.
Ellen got sober also, which wasgreat, and I got sober first
(42:44):
and that's the power of example.
She got sober after me.
She said if you could do it, Icould do it.
And I said, absolutely right.
So we were able to be sobertogether and you'll meet my
family, my very funny family andsomewhat dysfunctional.
But there you are, aren't weall?
And that's going to beavailable April 1st from
(43:07):
Skyhorse Publishing Company andanywhere you want Amazon or
Barnes, noble or yourindependent bookstore.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
That's amazing.
Well, maura, I reallyappreciate your time and your
energy today.
This has been a greatconversation.
Where do you like people toreach out and find you if they
want to?
Today, this has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Where do you like people to reach out and find you
if they want to?
Well, I have a website, caseyInc.
C-a-s-e-y-i-n-k.
Like the Inc.
You write with CaseyInccom Also.
Authormkasey at gmailcom isgreat and.
I'm here in Connecticut.
I'm going to be doing my ownlittle book store in Buffalo and
(43:49):
in Connecticut and you know Iwill offer sparkling water and
coffee at all books anybookstore I go to.
Forget about the wine peopleYou're not going to get any with
me, but maybe some sparklingapple cider if they're very
lucky.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
That's amazing.
I love that.
I'll make sure I link to thosesites below, and so best of luck
with the book.
And thank you so much for yourstory and for the message of
hope that we all got to hear andjust living an amazing sober
life.
You get to do that today.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Isn't that a great thing.
Every day is new, it's ablessing.
Clear head.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining me forthis week's episode of Confident
Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about theSober Freedom Inner Circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
(44:51):
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.
Hello and welcome to the Confident Sober Women
podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common, and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection.
(00:30):
So we know we are no longeralone.
In this podcast, you will heara real life talk about building
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk.
Hey there, sober ladies, thankyou so much for joining me today
for the Confident Sober Womenpodcast, and I'm introducing you
(00:52):
today to my friend, mara Casey.
She is an amazing writer.
She worked for the newspapersthe Hartford Courant and the New
York Times.
She's won big national andregional awards and then, in
2020, she discovered some of herold diaries that she had kept
(01:12):
as a teenager and really startedto lean into writing a book
called Saving Ellen, a memoir ofhope and recovery that was
published on April the 1st.
So you can look for thatwherever you buy your books.
Maura is just a breath of freshair who's been sober for a very
long time.
We get into the concepts aroundboundaries, around making
(01:35):
amends, how to speak up forourselves how we change when we
do this work of emotionalsobriety.
There's a lot in thisconversation, including a lot of
our personal experiences withthat, and you know descriptions
of her history and why she wrotethe book.
So grab your big glass of wateror your favorite mocktail and
(01:56):
join me for this conversationwith Mara Casey.
Hey, it's me Shelby.
Have you ever wondered what'sreally happening in your brain
during recovery?
Are you ready to take controlof your anxiety, sleep better
and finally feel focused andconfident?
I want to introduce you to agame changer that's transforming
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(03:03):
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(03:23):
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change.
Well, hey there, maura.
This is so great to have youhere today for the Confident,
sober Women podcast.
I know my audience is going tolove our conversation today
already, just from what you andI were talking about in our
pre-meeting, and I'm going toturn the mic over to you now and
(03:46):
let you share a little bit moreabout your story, and then
we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Hey, shelby, so great to be here.
Thanks so much for having me.
Welcome to my barn.
I live in a small farm inConnecticut and this is my barn
and I get the second floor andmy husband has his man cave on
the first floor.
So this is my domain, but thisis a great topic for me.
(04:10):
I've been a happy sober drunkfor 39 and a half years.
It's been a long time, but Ialways remember my childhood,
which was I grew up in a bigIrish family.
There were six kids.
My mother had six kids in sevenyears, god bless her and
(04:31):
alcohol was actually the seventhmember of the family.
It was present at everyoccasion and it was the reliable
member to help us celebrate.
The reliable member to help uscelebrate.
It was there to help us grieve.
It was there all the time and Iused to come downstairs
sometimes and see in the morningwhen everybody had been
(04:55):
drinking.
And when I got old enough whichwas 13, thank you very much I
was drinking right along witheverybody else.
There'd be the whiskey bottleright in the middle of the
kitchen table with the glassesand whatever strewn around.
So it's been a long road.
My childhood was prettytumultuous.
(05:18):
My father had a drinkingproblem that got worse when my
sister was diagnosed with kidneydisease in the mid-60s early on
, and she was a real firecracker.
Ellen was a spitfire.
She was always running around,always yelling and always
climbing trees and things likethat, and she grew very rapidly
(05:40):
diminished under kidney disease,which we were told was terminal
.
And at that time there was verylittle in the way of organ
transplants.
That was considered the medicalequivalent of walking on the
moon.
There was no organ procurementsystem.
If a doctor wanted to try atransplant and wanted to find a
(06:01):
cadaver kidney in New York Statehe had to call every one of the
400 hospitals that thereexisted to find do you have a
kidney?
It was even against the law totake kidneys, cadaver kidneys,
across state lines.
So if you lived two miles froma state line and there was one
right over the line, it mighthave been against the law to
(06:23):
bring it.
So there's many, many obstacles.
It was very early in this sortof medical field and my mother,
you know, watched my father kindof fall apart.
He began to have a very publicaffair.
He was he, you know, becamealcoholic and she was determined
to save Ellen.
That was her determination.
My mom was a World War II Armyvet and she was going to do it.
(06:46):
So that's the subject of thebook I wrote.
But as I got into the book whichis Saving Ellen, a memoir of
open recovery, I realized thatthe drinking had so much more to
do with the turmoil than simplythe situation.
And I began to drink when I was13.
(07:07):
And it wasn't seen as realdeviant at that time.
I mean now, as a mother, I mean, it kind of blows my mind, but
it was so much a fabric of ourlives that nobody thought it was
a big deal that a 13, 14,15-year-old would be drinking.
And in fact at the time it wasseen as something like well,
(07:30):
they'll learn to handle it athome, which is not true.
What it does is set you up asbeing more likely for problems
later on which in my case didoccur, which in my case did
occur.
And I had an experience.
I became a journalist.
I went to a journalismconference when I was 28, and I
(07:53):
said I had begun to be worriedabout my drinking and I said,
okay, I'll just have one, maybetwo.
Well, you know, I got togetherwith friends.
It was near Christmas.
We were at a beautifulrestaurant on the Annapolis
waterfront.
There were the lights, theships.
It was glorious.
(08:14):
I had one, then I had another,then I had another, and in the
bus ride home to the hotel wherewe were all staying, somebody
pulled on a case of champagnewhich I decided you know, I
gotta, I gotta, help finish thisoff.
And so by the time I stumbled inbed I felt so awful.
(08:37):
Every time I closed my eyes Ifelt nauseated.
Every time I opened them theroom would literally spin and I
just said I'm becoming a drunklike dad.
I'm becoming a drunk like dad.
It was a real kind of a come toJesus moment.
So I just stopped.
And he the blessing for meisn't just stopping, not going
(09:13):
to AA immediately, not doinganything like that was that my
husband then and now is veryeasy for a recovering person to
live with because you know he'sItalian, he doesn't care about
drinking.
He, you know he might have abeer every two weeks to keep his
hand in, he doesn't care.
(09:35):
So it wasn't like I was livingwith somebody who drank or
wanted to drink as much as I didand I had to fight temptation
every day.
The temptation really kind ofdidn't exist, at least in our
house, which helped a lot.
But that's my little drunk logand how I kind of got started
(09:56):
and took off from there.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Thank you so much for sharing all that in such a
vulnerable way.
That's truly how it works, andthat's what we learn for sure,
like hearing other people'sstories and learning that we are
never alone in this world.
There's always plenty of people, although many of the stories
are so different.
It took me a long, long, longtime to ever even hear my story,
but it's out there.
(10:19):
So did you?
How did you get sober?
Did you use like a program orjust cold turkey?
What did you?
How did you get sober?
Did you use like a program orjust cold turkey?
What did you do?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
well, at first it was just like white knuckling it.
Um, I had been uh pete and Iactually I always say this we
met in a homeless shelter.
We were not clients, we wereboth hired to work in a homeless
shelter and after about threeyears I decided I wanted to be a
journalist instead of, you know, in counseling, a counselor and
(10:49):
and so I knew about thefoundations of the program.
I had actually attended theRutgers School of Alcohol
Studies and so I knew all that.
But it took me a while and ittook.
I was very shy about going toAA and it took while and it took
.
I was very shy about going toAA and it took.
(11:10):
You know, it took some friends.
I made friends who were alsosober.
I knew a couple of people whowere sober and they helped me go
to AA, and it was easier to goto AA with someone.
I found it, at least for me.
I found it much easier to gowith somebody who I could kind
of tie a knot to and hang on,and we don't talk often enough,
(11:32):
I think, about the power ofexample, the example of people
who are sober.
There was a woman who had won aPulitzer Prize and she was a
journalist and I had noticed herand she was kind of my ideal of
who I wanted to be like.
She was an opinion writing theway I was and when I first
(11:53):
offered to buy her a drinkbefore I stopped she said no,
thank you.
She said I like life to go byits own pace and I always
remembered that and I wanted tobe like her.
So it helped me a lot to havean example of a person I wanted
to be like and to eventuallyhave a friend or two and go to
(12:14):
AA meetings.
And I have never yet gone to abad AA meeting.
And it's amazing in an AAmeeting you can see other people
just do these subtle littleinterventions to help people, to
say I am with you in what foryou is still a dark night.
(12:35):
I am with you and that'shealing for me as well, even if
I didn't need thoseinterventions just being there
and having somebody turn to a.
I remember one time this onewoman always used to knit during
AA meetings and she had herknitting needles.
She was in like her sixties andwhich then to me was old, and
(12:59):
she turned to a young woman whohad been, had stopped about
eight days earlier and had beenon drugs, and she just said to
her we're glad you're here.
You know just that we're gladyou're here, and knowing you can
go to a place where someonewill always be able to say we're
(13:21):
glad you're here is support inand of itself.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Oh, I totally agree.
That's how I got sober too,because back then we only had,
you know, rehab and AA.
There wasn't any other options,like today we have all these
modern things and it's so, it'sso great to see the different
things emerging with Quitlet and, you know, dry January and you
know, sober programs andSheRecovers.
There's so many, there's somany options now we have, like
we can get our hands into a lotof things, depending on what
(13:46):
fits our you know desire, whatour need at that time.
And then and then sometimes weage and stage and we want
something else, you know later.
And, like I always say, takelike a layered approach, you
know, to things, because youknow we need multiple things,
often not just one thing, and sowhatever works that's going to
make you begin to do the workright, that emotional sobriety
which is what we are here alwaystalking about, and so kind of,
(14:13):
like I mentioned before, Ialways feel, like you know, that
early sobriety work is so hardon my opinion.
I mean it just is.
There's a lot going onphysically, there's a lot going
on like emotionally.
Usually there might even be,like you know, might be in
trouble, there might be bills topay or legal problems or god
knows what you know maritalissues or whatever is happening,
family stuff and so just a lot.
There's just a lot going onduring that early, that first
(14:33):
year, right, and you start tofeel better.
Um, in 30 days you know you'reas sober as you're ever going to
get, but you know you're, youhave to relearn.
I always say to relearn how tolive life.
That's know, in AA they do saythings like it's a design for
living that really works and Itruly believe that because I
know I had to relearn.
You know how to feed myselfproperly and like how to you
know not exercise six times aday or something, or like you
(14:56):
know skincare and like you knowjust appropriate things, how to
be an adult.
And so once you get past thatlike kind of first year time and
like that one to five yearrange for most of us it really
is this like big awakening, likekind of the fog is lifted.
We start to clear out, you know,and really begin to wonder like
oh gosh, like what do, what doI want to do now?
(15:18):
Or who am I now?
You know, these are questionsum, that kind of come up, or
like you know, what do I want mylife to?
Because now we have options,you know, now we have, we have
choices today, now, um.
So I'm just wondering maybe youhad that same experience and if
you can say a little bit moreabout what that was like for you
and kind of how that playedinto maybe your relationships
and, um, you know, anything else?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
well, I had a brother who I was very fond of, but he
was um, he just loved drinking.
And when I would start talkingabout sobriety I always had the
feeling that he was either goingto thrust a crucifix in front
of my face or get garlic andwear garlic around his neck like
warding off the vampire.
(15:59):
So but I always said to him youknow, it's okay, I mean, the
water's fine, it's not as bad asyou think.
But I realized that I reallyshouldn't say anything unless I
was asked, because first, it'spreachy and obnoxious and second
(16:21):
, I believe again in the powerof example.
He could see me, he could seethat I was happy and healthy and
doing my thing and that wasgreat, great.
But I found I needed more workon my family relationships in
the sense that I feel like I'msuch a people pleaser and I was
(16:44):
kind of trained that way in away and that was my role in the
family.
It helped me a lot to readadult children of alcoholics,
that whole thing.
Lot to read adult children ofalcoholics, that whole thing.
And in fact when I was at theRutgers School of Alcohol
Studies, the author, janetWoditz, first gave a
presentation.
(17:05):
It was like the first time shepresented her research and
there's about 300 people in theaudience and you could see in
different corners would read offsomething you could hear like a
shriek from this corner and onefrom that corner was really
funny.
Everybody was reacting to itand some people dismiss it as
(17:26):
being an ordinary list ofneuroses, but I thought it was
useful Because it gives me someideas of how I was reacting, in
a way, only because I wasaccustomed to that, instead of
really giving careful thought.
Do I really want to do this?
(17:47):
Do I really want to be withthis person?
If that person's overtlynegative all the time, why do I
have to be with them?
Where is that written?
You know, and just questioningthings that I didn't question
before and that felt likeputting on a new suit and it
wasn't comfortable, but Irealized it was also.
(18:08):
It was healthy.
It was learning new ways torelate to others and new ways to
be in a healthy, sober world.
So I don't know if it's likeriding a bike, but I sure did
need some training wheels.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
I love how you describe that and I think that
is relatable for most of us.
What you're really talkingabout are boundaries.
You know that's kind of theformal term for what you're
sharing and you know, maybe somepeople are already doing these
kinds of things and they don'tcall it that.
But you know, in the kind ofclinical world and you know, and
the personal development world,we do call it that.
And you're right, like so manypeople who are living in
(18:48):
alcoholic homes or who have anykind of like dysfunction, like
that's majorly impactful in ourfamilies, like dysfunction like
that's majorly impactful in ourfamilies, and then even not like
maybe you just have like anover you know zealous mom who is
, you know, sort of helicopter-yor just like very anxious or
you didn't get a very secureattachment.
There might be a development ofpeople pleasing that comes,
(19:11):
that you develop, and some of itmight be even personality style
too.
So it's like multiple things whythat might happen.
And's very, and I think, womenin general.
It's a generalization yes dohave a lot of this because you
know we get that kind of um bentof being, you know, nurturing
and caring and want to take careof people and all that stuff
and not not all women, butthat's like a generalization and
(19:33):
so then it becomes um kind ofpart of our culture as women or
females sometimes to be like theone who does all the things you
know, or who's always thecaretaker or always the yes
woman or um, and you're rightlike, and then you throw, you
know, alcoholism on top of itand drug addiction and
(19:53):
dysfunction and mental health,and you know it becomes really
unclear about, like what arewhat is my role and what are my
things, you know my issues todeal with and what are somebody
else's.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
That becomes very unclear very unclear and but at
some point, at some point inlives, with all the stuff we're
doing and I get it, we're allbusy we have to just say what do
I want Now?
If what you want to do is burndown your neighbor's house, I
encourage you not to do that.
But if what you want is, youknow, I just want the freedom to
(20:31):
go away for a weekend, I justwant you know, I want my husband
to help me with the dishes, Iwant you know.
I mean, it's okay.
It is okay to have normal wantsand needs and to meet the needs
of your life without feelingguilty about it, without feeling
(20:51):
that unnecessary feeling, thatunnecessary burdensome guilt.
That is not constructive.
You don't even have to put avalue on it.
You can just say to yourselfit's not constructive to my life
to feel this way and to justbegin to make a list and pursue
(21:13):
a few of those things.
There's nothing wrong with thatand you know what.
It's your life and you have tofigure out how you want to lead
it and live it sooner or later.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, and I would recommend sooner in this, this
area, because we get this is abig cause of like burnout.
You know I feel like a lot ofpeople, particularly women, if
you're trying to manage, youknow maybe you have children or
you're.
You know you're trying to builda career or manage.
You know, run your marriage orwhatever's happening, we all
(21:51):
we're busy and so you know we're, we get strung out.
And when we live our lives likethat, like when we become like
the guest woman or we just or wehave so much guilt and shame
because of our disease, likemaybe there was things that you
missed out on or you were likenot reliable before, and so, um,
parts of that like can be great.
(22:12):
They can be a driving forcetowards like oh okay, now I do
want to show up.
You know, now I want to be theof that like can be great.
They can be a driving forcetowards like oh okay, now I do
want to show up.
You know, now I want to be theperson that like helps my mom,
you know, because I want to bethat for her, because she's she
needs my help.
Or you know I want to be a morepresent mom.
You know things like that.
And so there's there's goodthings about that.
But if there's other parts ofyou that haven't resolved, some
(22:32):
of that like shame and guilt,which is what a lot of this can
be about, that's just unresolvedtrauma and shame then you might
be doing things for like thewrong reasons.
That's what the whole point is,you know, if you're like always
saying yes, or you're alwaysletting someone treat you and
because really boundaries, likethe definition of it, really is
like letting other people knowhow to treat you you're
(22:52):
basically teaching the otherpeople in your world how to
treat you, and so when we dothat, in whatever way that is,
we are letting people know thisis how it's okay to treat me.
So, for example, if you have, ifyou're in a relationship, and
you let your partner, you know,scream and yell at you, and
that's just something, thatthat's the way he's always
talked to you, or maybe he'slike overly critical or
(23:15):
something, and you, you haveallowed that for all of your
relationship.
It's gonna it's gonna be achallenge, it's not impossible,
for sure, but you've allowedthat to go on.
So he has learned right to likethat you.
It's okay to treat you that way,it's okay, you're okay with
that.
And so what we do is we startto undo that, untangle that
(23:35):
through our work, likeemotionally, with really great
clinical work and things likeEMDR and neurofeedback therapy
and, you know, aa, whateverrecovery materials, to start to
really change those thinkingpatterns and heal the trauma so
that you can start to see, ohgosh, no, I don't, like, I don't
, that's not appropriate, Idon't want anybody to treat me
(23:56):
that way.
And so we come back we circleback in and we start to learn
when certain things happen.
I then say, oh, I don't I,that's not okay with me.
Um, for you to talk to me likethat, like I don't, I don't want
, I don't want anybody umscreaming yell at me.
So we can continue thisconversation, but we're going to
do it like when everybody'scalm and the trouble with that,
(24:17):
and I mean that's a great thing.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
The other trouble with that is that the reaction
is generally not rainbows andunicorns right, because the
people around you will getconfused I always say it's one
of these things where things canget a little worse before it
gets better, because they'll trylike.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
So that's one example , but it could be another thing.
Like work, you know like sayyou have a job and you are
pretty strung out and you'realways the girl that's like.
Your boss calls and said wehave this new project and we
want you to take this on, andyou're like, okay, cool, and
cause you're like, I just reallywant to.
You know, I want to build thiscareer, I have this new, we have
this new employee, we need youto train her.
But you're like, and so you'realways or you take the calls,
(24:57):
you know, after 6, 30 at night,or 7, and you're always one.
You know, you just you alwaysdo it um.
And so now you're starting toget a handle on your life.
You know, maybe you've addedsomething else children, or
something else in your life andyou just don't want to work like
that anymore and you start tosay, actually I don't, I don't,
I'm not going to to do thatanymore, I'm not going to take
phone calls after five or six,whatever, you know, you make
(25:19):
that rule.
Or you start to say, no, you'regoing to get a pushback, right,
they're going to be like, well,what, like she, oh, like shelby
always said yes to this stufflike, and they might get ugly,
right, they might just start tosay like, well, you know I don't
know if you're going to be ableto.
You know, keep working here, orwhatever.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And so like that's.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
There are always consequences for all of our
choices, good and bad.
But it doesn't mean that it'swrong to do it.
You just have to figure out.
This is like a tightrope, right?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, and it's also as you mature in your sobriety
you get better at it.
One thing that is important tomake a distinction between is
the difference between shame andguilt, guilt being maybe what
you did and shame being more whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
You know, guilt is I did something bad and shame is I
am bad.
Right Very very important,you're right.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, and just just knowing that, and I felt a lot
of shame about all the drinkingI did when I was so young.
But you know, you kind of haveto forgive myself for that and
understand that it was the timeand it was the culture and it
was, you know, family valuesthat had gone askew my father.
(26:30):
Eventually he didn't quite getsober, but he cut way back on
his drinking and at the end thelast year of his life or so, he
was sober and he just said to mehe felt so guilty about the
things he did that he shouldn'thave and the things that he
didn't do and he should have,that he just couldn't sleep at
(26:53):
night.
And I said to him what you haveto sleep sometime, dad, what
helps you?
And he said I have a rosary andI pray.
I just pray for forgiveness.
And seeing him at the end kindof marinating in guilt and,
frankly, justifiable guilt,because he wasn't that great of
(27:17):
a father he was, he there wasterrible alcoholic scenes at
home and it really made me think.
It really made me be verygrateful that I had stopped at
28, um, early on, before I couldreally make a mess of things.
I had only been married abouttwo years when I stopped and it
(27:39):
was kind of a sight to beholdbecause he was very contrite.
Didn't help me when I was 11,but it made me feel badly for
him and it made it easy for meto forgive him.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Right, and so you just kind of described what that
process of us of we workthrough emotional sobriety again
, in whatever form or programthat you're using, it's through
the steps, right, and so that'slike the formal, you know, 12
step recovery process.
But you're going to be doingvery, very similar work If you,
you know you're in therapy oryou're working through some
other kind of workbook orprogram.
(28:16):
Because what happens is is westart to, you know, we get, we
age in our sobriety, we take alook at all that stuff, and
that's kind of the point of youknow, formally, again through 12
steps, is making amends, right.
So when we get to that likefourth and fifth step time,
which we do need to do things inorder, right.
So, because if we did that,like when we were one month
(28:36):
sober, one week sober, it'sprobably going to be for the
wrong reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
We really do need to you know, give it a minute.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
We need to check in because we are naturally
self-centered.
So once we get to that space,where we are ready, you know, we
have a hard posture of true,true repentance, right, like we
are really remorseful, and we goto the people in our lives and
we say, you know, like look,I've had a chance to really
think about this and I and I um,I'm really sorry for how I
harmed you you know, and againwe're not doing that for
(29:02):
anything back to us.
We're doing it to cleanse ourown palate right and to make
that amends, but that person maynot accept it and that's
they're allowed to.
But then as you progressthrough we get to you know, like
the 10 step was my favoritething of all time.
Right, because it's reallyabout adulting, like how do you
live life?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
how do?
Speaker 1 (29:19):
you do this right, well, you start to um, put in
place things like boundaries.
You start to have things likerestraint of tongue and pen,
right, we start to think beforewe act and speak.
So now we have more discernmentand ability to say like, how
would this maybe be harmful tosomebody if I did that?
Right, and so we get thatwisdom.
But but in all of that too, wewere changing.
(29:40):
We were changing.
And so your dad like same thingfor him, like he changed some,
but he struggled with a lot ofthat guilt from his drinking, as
did you and I both.
But my opinion anyway, maybe abit different one, is you know,
after we do get and stay soberfor a long time and we're doing
this work and we're making whatI call living amends by like
just not doing those thingsanymore, I mean we are a new, we
(30:04):
are kind of clean.
I mean it doesn't change thepast, we didn't, we can't erase
it, but we also aren't in thered anymore, like if we've done
that work and we've changed, andthen we've said our men's
sincerely.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
you know, we get to live on the other side of it, so
right that guilt and shame isnot the driving force now of our
choices anymore and if I actlike a simple jackass, I can't
blame a bottle of whiskey for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
It's just me, yeah exactly, and then we had to take
a look at that and be like, oh,that's like, that's the such,
that's the power of this, thoughlike that's the power of what
we get to do today, because wedo make mistakes all day long,
all the time, and we will messup.
We will say the thing, we willhave the tone.
(30:56):
We will, you know, maybe, maybeeven sometimes like cheat on
our taxes or something, or tryto try to.
You know, cut a.
You know, and the beauty ofbeing sober for a long time,
though, and doing the work, isto get that conscience that
comes in right.
It helps us.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Right, it is.
And you know, I am just sograteful.
The one thing I really regretis that as a journalist, I
didn't write about sobriety.
I didn't write about sobriety.
I didn't write about my beingsober because, for, I think, the
first 10 years I felt kind ofashamed.
(31:35):
Ashamed that I had to stop,ashamed that I had gotten to
that place in my life and ittook me a good 10 years to
understand.
You know what?
I did?
Something really cool.
I stopped.
There's generations of myfamily.
If you shake my family tree, adrunk will fall off every branch
and I stopped that in itstracks, at least for me.
(32:00):
And so it was cool.
And so I began to write aboutit, you know, when I was maybe
sober 20 years.
I should have done it sooner,but at least I began to be
comfortable in my own skinenough to be able to write about
it and I just, I just wish Ihad gotten that comfort level
(32:22):
years, years before.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I had pretty much the exact experience.
I got sober at 28 as well.
I was 27.
I turned 27 in rehab and I hadalmost a very exact experience
as far as like the length oftime Now I was doing the work.
I changed a ton.
Everything in my life changed.
I got pregnant when I was sixmonths sober.
I had three kids in four years.
I was doing all the things Idid all the therapy, the
(32:45):
marriage work where I maintainedyou know, we stayed married,
which is, you know, huge, butyet it was just still so much I
remember and I actually, becauseI celebrated my anniversary for
most of those years I haven'treally done that in kind of a
while now, but at my 10-yearanniversary I stood at the
podium and I was pissed off.
(33:06):
I was mad because I just feltlike I was grateful.
I stood at the podium and I waspissed off.
I was mad because I just feltlike I was grateful.
I had all the gratitude.
I understood, but I didn'tthink it would still be this
much work.
Why?
am I not further along why?
Am I still here, like I was,like what is I'm doing it?
I'm showing up to the thing.
Why is why?
Basically, why is life stillhard, you know, and I think I
didn't have enough age and stageyet, even though I was probably
(33:29):
38 by then Right Should have, Iguess, but I did it.
I didn't have enough age andstage to know that life is hard
all the time for most people.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Most all of us, and so I just didn't have that
maturity yet.
Um, but that's the benefit ofbeing in like an older, yes
Cause I wish.
I mean, I have have three youngadults now.
Two daughters are in collegeand one son who's still a junior
in high school.
But I just so want them to geta lot of this way sooner than I
did, you know.
But I don't, I don't know ifit's even possible.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I don't think it's possible, because they live
their own lives and they will.
You, they'll get it or theywon't.
And what I have found as amother is my most important
thing to realize is that, youknow, I can love them, I gave
life to them, but they get tolive their own lives and they
get to do whatever.
(34:21):
I remember my mother was veryfunny, very funny, and one of
the joys of writing this bookand I reread a bunch of diaries
I kept, you know back in the day, and I still keep is how funny
she was.
And at one point I waslistening to her.
My cousin Ruth was complainingabout her daughter-in-law and my
(34:42):
mother said look, Ruth, yousound like the mother-in-law in
a comic strip.
I wrecked my life, you wreckedyour life.
Let's let the kids wreck theirlives, you know, and every now
and then I think let them wrecktheir lives.
I can't help it.
So it's just detaching in agood way, but always being there
(35:04):
for them, of course.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, yeah, I always say I have to leave something
for the therapist.
You know, yes, yeah, and no onegets out of this life unscathed
, you know if you're a human andyou're living on earth, it's
you know you're going to havehard times, they're going to
have a terrible thing.
You're going to have the toughtimes, you're going to have the
great times.
Joy is wonderful and most of us, I guess, feel like it's more
(35:28):
than the bad, or else maybe, Idon't know, most of us wouldn't
make it.
So we feel like there's morejoy or more times of peace, or
it's more valuable to us to havethat than the bad times, and so
we just keep doing it.
But you know, when we don't dothe things that we know are
going to keep us well, you know,like when we don't have good
spiritual fitness, for me that'sextremely important.
(35:50):
And I think that's actually beena highlight of the last maybe
five years for me personally.
There's been a real change.
I mean, it's always been there,but it's really been a I'm
older B I feel like that hasbeen a big area where I've
invested a lot of time andenergy.
And then also the boundary workthat I've put in place,
particularly in my, in myrelationships, but also just in
(36:10):
my, in my relationship, I guess,specifically in like what I
allow and don't allow, has beenthe most valuable for me.
But I just I do think you'reright Like I and I don't want to
take away the opportunity forthem, my kids, to build like
resilience Cause that's how ithappens Like you can't take away
their pain, even though we wantto, because they need that in
order to get to the other sideright I just want, and kind of
(36:34):
my prayer always is that theywill get a lot of this like
sooner in life but maybe theywill, because I started drinking
heavily you know heavilyalcoholically, kind of you know
whatever at 17 or 16, whatevertime, and so then my emotional
growth got stunted right at thatpoint, and so I lost like 10
years and didn't really startmaturing until 27, and I was
(36:56):
only 16.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
So maybe they'll have a fighting chance of being
better off.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Right?
Well, we can all hope so, right.
And, as you say, leaving alittle for the therapist isn't a
bad thing.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
I mean, that's what I always tell my, I mean
everybody has.
You know, there's no perfectfamily, no perfect parents, no
perfect people, and so, nomatter what, even in the best of
families which there are manyfamilies that are great, they're
doing great things there'sstill the thing, there's still
(37:34):
the one thing you know, or there, it's just the internalization
of the way a one child, um,handled something like though
you know, your same words, yoursame discipline strategy might
have been internalized by one ofthe kids, is very traumatic and
harmful to them and created anegative thinking pattern, right
, whereas another one was likewell, whatever, okay, they
didn't, it didn't matter to them, right?
Like yeah, and so I, you knowthat all just gets developed in
their own way from theirpersonal process and their
(37:56):
experiences that they have yeah,it's always a different prism
they're, they're born withdifferent lenses than we have.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
And you know we're older and and you know I don't
live in Buffalo anymore and evenBuffalo isn't the town that I
grew up in.
You know way back when.
And you know this is the lifethat I've shaped, so it's going
to be different and that's okay.
All I know is, one of the bestdecisions I ever made in my life
(38:28):
was to be sober, and it madeeverything else happen.
My drinking did not encumber mycareer and I ended up working
for the New York Times and had alot of fun, a lot of fun, wrote
a lot of stuff and got to see alot of the world.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
And I can look back on it and say, well, you know,
at least drinking didn't screwit up yeah, it's amazing, you
know it's amazing the life wecan create and um, yes, when we
get and stay sober, um, we getthe opportunity to be well, you
know, and unfortunately noteverybody gets that and I think
I try to remember that veryregularly too.
Um, and another thing I reallyhave been focusing on too and
(39:09):
maybe this is relatable is justthe minimization, I think, that
a lot of us do, of like ofshowing up in life.
You know, people will I myselfincluded.
I mean I was like aperfectionist, I mean kind of
like a wackadoodle, crazy mom,you know always had to have all
things.
You know very driven all things, you know very driven, schedule
(39:30):
oriented, all the things.
But you know, I would be hardon myself the first time
something wasn't like great, ormy kid forgot the thing, or I
didn't, I messed up, or you know, and I, I think it's easy to be
like, well, I'm a terrible mom,or I'm not a good worker, or I
let my spouse down, or myparents and all this stuff, and
start to get into that cycle oflike I'm not enough, or I didn't
(39:53):
do it, and like instead ofrealizing.
I say that a lot of people islike you know some people, like
you got up and you showed up andyou were in service to your
family today.
Like you showed up and you youdid.
You woke up and you got out ofbed and you showed up for your
family.
A lot of people don't.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
I think we I know it sounds dramatic, but it's very
true, and so I've been reallyfocusing on that and sharing
that so often to help otherpeople realize you know, yeah,
this is a struggle in this lifebut, you're here.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Like you showed up, you came to therapy, hey look at
you, you know Exactly, and justyou, that.
Hey.
Look at you, right, you knowexactly.
And just showing up for thosethose little things and not
being passed out on the couch orwhatever, um, is a big deal a
miracle, big deal it is it isyeah, so um, where are your kids
today?
(40:42):
oh well, they, they're great.
Um, I have twotake-no-prisoners granddaughters
.
One is six and she just neverstops.
I feel like I've run a marathonevery time I babysit her.
And the other one is two littleRiley, riley and Ellie, and my
(41:03):
daughter.
They're my daughter, anna'sdaughter.
Uh, they're my daughter, anna's, um, she works for a medical
device company.
And my brother, my, um, my son,tim, who I named after my two
favorite men, my, my brother,tim, and my husband is, um, a
high school history teacher in akind of an inner city high
(41:23):
school in hartford, and, uh, heloves his kids.
They're mostly lower income andhe loves them and they love him
.
And it's fabulous.
I mean, he's doing the greatwork every day, just being there
, being there for his kids.
So they both are.
I'm real proud of them, but I'mproud of who they are and not
(41:44):
what they do.
I don't care what they do aslong as they are good people.
You know, and, um, you know,I've been married 41 years now.
Pete's still, you know, hangingout with me.
He still has his one beer aweek or whatever it is.
And, um, it's been, it's beengood.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, you're a real warrior there.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I don't know how it happened.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I can't explain it I know I feel the same way.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, I know your book is coming out.
Why don't you just give us thequick synopsis of the book a
little bit more, and maybe do alittle bit of the beginning and
just where?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
people can find it and when Saving Ellen a memoir
of hope and recovery goes intomy crazy Irish blue-collar
childhood in Buffalo, new York,and lots of drinking and lots of
struggles at the end to getsober and do that.
Ellen got sober also, which wasgreat, and I got sober first
(42:44):
and that's the power of example.
She got sober after me.
She said if you could do it, Icould do it.
And I said, absolutely right.
So we were able to be sobertogether and you'll meet my
family, my very funny family andsomewhat dysfunctional.
But there you are, aren't weall?
And that's going to beavailable April 1st from
(43:07):
Skyhorse Publishing Company andanywhere you want Amazon or
Barnes, noble or yourindependent bookstore.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
That's amazing.
Well, maura, I reallyappreciate your time and your
energy today.
This has been a greatconversation.
Where do you like people toreach out and find you if they
want to?
Today, this has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Where do you like people to reach out and find you
if they want to?
Well, I have a website, caseyInc.
C-a-s-e-y-i-n-k.
Like the Inc.
You write with CaseyInccom Also.
Authormkasey at gmailcom isgreat and.
I'm here in Connecticut.
I'm going to be doing my ownlittle book store in Buffalo and
(43:49):
in Connecticut and you know Iwill offer sparkling water and
coffee at all books anybookstore I go to.
Forget about the wine peopleYou're not going to get any with
me, but maybe some sparklingapple cider if they're very
lucky.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
That's amazing.
I love that.
I'll make sure I link to thosesites below, and so best of luck
with the book.
And thank you so much for yourstory and for the message of
hope that we all got to hear andjust living an amazing sober
life.
You get to do that today.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Isn't that a great thing.
Every day is new, it's ablessing.
Clear head.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining me forthis week's episode of Confident
Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about theSober Freedom Inner Circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
(44:51):
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.
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