April 15, 2025 • 45 mins
Rebuilding What Addiction Broke: A Conversation with Janice Johnson Dowd
In this powerful episode of the Confident Sober Women podcast, we're joined by Janice Johnson Dowd, author of "Rebuilding Relationships in Recovery." As a retired social worker with 12 years of sobriety and a mother of four, Janice shares her journey from functioning alcoholic to recovery advocate with remarkable candor.
Episode Highlights:
- Janice's background working in addiction treatment centers before her own alcoholism developed in her 40s
- The complex dynamics of balancing motherhood, career, and self-care that contributed to her drinking
- Her experience with inpatient treatment and how focusing exclusively on recovery actually damaged family relationships
- The challenging path of repairing relationships with her four children (ages 13-21 at the time of her treatment)
- Why validation, accountability, and persistent communication are crucial for family healing
- The importance of finding balance between recovery work and family reconnection
- How to effectively listen to and validate different family members' experiences
- Why staying sober is the foundation for rebuilding trust, but isn't enough on its own
Practical Takeaways:
- Take accountability for your actions and validate others' perspectives, even when they differ from yours
- Practice deep listening without immediate reactions, especially with adolescents and young adults
- Persist in healing efforts even when family therapy or initial conversations feel uncomfortable or unsuccessful
- Recognize developmental differences in how children process a parent's addiction and recovery
- Find balance between recovery work and family engagement
- Take advantage of small moments for connection and organic healing conversations
- Get support from sponsors, therapists, and recovery peers when navigating challenging family situations
Janice emphasizes that repair is possible even after significant damage to relationships. Her story offers hope to those struggling with similar challenges and provides practical guidance for rebuilding what addiction has broken.
Connect with Janice:
- Book: "Rebuilding Relationships in Recovery" by Janice V. Johnson Dowd
- Website: janicejohnsondowd.com
- Instagram: @parenting_inn_recovery
Whether you're in recovery yourself or supporting someone who is, this episode provides valuable insights into the complex journey of family healing after addiction.
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Oh, and by the way, if you didn’t know, my remote Neurofeedback Therapy program is up and running. Learn more here!
If you aren't part of the Confident Sober Women Facebook group, it's a great place to be. There are over a thousand other sober women there building lives they don't want to escape from. Come on over and join us.
And if you haven't read my memoir, grab a copy today and maybe a second one for a friend. There is so much hope in recovery, and I shared my story so raw and vulnerable so that others would know they aren't alone and that there is a way to live well, manage relationships, parent your kids, and have a healthy body, all while staying sober. Grab a copy of Recovering in Recovery: The Life-Changing Joy of Sobriety wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hey there, sober ladies.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women podcast, and today I'mhaving a conversation with my
friend, janice Johnson-Dowd.
She is a social worker, she's arecovering alcoholic and a mom
of four and she's the author ofthe book Rebuilding
Relationships in Recovery, andthat is exactly what we talk
(00:22):
about this entire episode.
She shares on a deep personallevel about her recovery
experience, specifically intreatment.
She was able to go to along-term treatment facility and
then continued care after that.
We really get vulnerable aboutwhat her addiction history and
(00:44):
her response in her recovery didin her family, like how that
affected her children and herex-husband or husband at the
time, their dad, kind of thethings that she feels maybe
would have been better for herto do, how she could have
handled things differently.
Looking back now, I think thisis going to really help anybody
(01:06):
out there who is perhaps inmaybe early recovery or even not
.
If you're just still strugglingwith your family relationships
in relation to maybe how thingshave gone in your active
addiction up until now, or evenif you're been in recovery a
long time.
I mean, all of us havedifferent ages and stages in our
relationships, so I thinkyou're going to get a lot out of
(01:26):
this conversation.
So I want you to grab that bigglass of water or your favorite
mocktail and listen to thisconversation with Janice
Johnson-Dowd.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theConfident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one, and sober since July 1st
2002.
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(02:14):
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change.
Hey there, janice.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confidence Over
Women podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe show and to have an amazing
conversation that I know ouraudience is going to enjoy.
(04:05):
So I'm going to turn the micover to you and let you share a
little bit more about your story, and then we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Okay, well, I'm very happy to be here and to share a
little bit, because I think themost important thing we do is to
tell our stories and reducestigma and reach out to others.
So, but I am an author, speaker, retired social worker I'm no
longer actively in practice orcoaching because I'm putting my
(04:34):
time into writing and teachingso, but I'm, more importantly,
I'm 12 years sober.
I'm the mother of four kids.
12 years sober, I'm the motherof four kids and despite being a
social worker and thinking thatI had some good self-help
skills, I started drinking in my40s and became, you know, a
(04:57):
full-blown alcoholic.
So I'm one of those later inlife drinkers, someone who avoid
all the early warning signs oftheir alcoholism, denial all of
that and start drinking anyhow.
So my story, a little more, is Igrew up in an alcoholic home.
(05:18):
My dad was, you know, yourtypical functioning alcoholic.
Our family life wasn't horrible, but it definitely was
confusing and dysfunctional andthere is no real guidance on how
to deal with emotions orfeelings, or it's a very
authoritative household.
(05:38):
So we never discussed my dad'sdrinking or the problems at home
.
So, of course, what does a kidfrom that family do?
We either grow up and have ourown problems.
We marry or get involved withpartners who have problems or we
(05:59):
become workers in the helpingprofessional, and that's what I
did.
So as a young person Iexperimented with alcohol or
drugs, but I already was so mucha codependent and controlling
person as a young person.
I experimented with alcohol ordrugs, but I already was so much
a codependent and controllingperson as a young person that I
didn't like the effect ofalcohol or drugs.
Alcohol made me feel out ofcontrol.
I only experimented with pot asa young person and that made me
feel paranoid.
(06:19):
So that really wasn't my escapefrom, you know, my emotional
struggles at home or as a kidgrowing up.
Instead, I had kind of ahealthy escape in that I was an
athlete and it kept me out oftrouble.
So I, of course, was drawn tothe helping professional, became
(06:43):
a social worker and steppedright into what I knew.
And this is the crazy part ofmy story, because I started out
my career in alcoholism andaddiction treatment working as a
family therapist, primarily ininpatient treatment centers, and
at that point I had some prettygood self-help skills and
(07:08):
worked on myself and I think Iwas on a path to some good
self-care.
But despite all that, like Isaid earlier, I still started
drinking in my 40s, was infull-blown denial and my
drinking just accelerated.
I believe in the geneticconcept of drinking, do you yeah
?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, and some ways I'm not a scientist.
So I think that first of all,by the way, thank you for
sharing your, your story.
I guess what I would say aboutit is I think that it's a very
complex and nuanced and Ihonestly think that we don't
really know.
I think sometimes we claim thatwe know.
I think that it is a familydisease, but I think it's also a
family disease from justnurture and generational trauma.
(07:51):
So I'm personally, as a traumatherapist, I and what we know
now about the brain research ontrauma and generational trauma
specifically, that we know thatthat gets passed down through
the mother, into the womb even,and then in in our DNA.
So so, yes, an addiction gene,like we can name it.
(08:13):
No, I don't.
I don't think that they'vediscovered that.
I don't know that they will.
I think what we mean by sayingit's genetic is it is a part of
our DNA composure, mostly fromyeah, and I agree with all that.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And I, you know, I look back in my family history.
Both of my parents came fromfamilies that had alcoholism in
it, you know.
So I feel like, if nothing elsebehaviorally, I'm predisposed
to it socially, but, you know, Ido feel like there is, you know
, probably a linkphysiologically.
(08:48):
So, however, despite that,again, you know, I started
drinking and at first it startedout very slow.
It built throughout my fortiesuntil I feel like I tipped the
scales and became a full blownalcoholic, had to get a
treatment.
Now I want to back up and say alittle bit so early on I had
(09:08):
some good self-help skills,self-care skills, but as I was
having kids and in my 30s, Ifound that and I think this is
real common, and that's one ofthe reasons why I love the topic
of your, the concept of yourpodcast, because it's about
women and moms, becausepersonally, I felt like in my
(09:30):
30s, when I was pregnant, havingchildren, trying to manage a
career, that I really struggledand that also fueled my feelings
of poor self-esteem.
It triggered all thosechildhood issues of feeling like
I was never going to be goodenough, I could never get enough
stuff done, and that fueled thedrinking.
(09:51):
I'm not explaining the drinking, but I just want to point that
out because I think I'm not theonly one.
I think there's a lot of womenout there who struggle with
balancing home life, family lifeand taking care of themselves.
That's one of the reasons why.
You know, drink is a quick fixto all of that.
It is a quick way to reducestress and distract from the
(10:17):
drudgery at times or the stressat times.
But my drinking advanced.
I felt a lot of guilt and shametowards the end of my drinking
because of being a social worker.
At that point in my life I wasnot working actively in the
professionally the social workfield.
I was involved in morevolunteer activities.
(10:37):
So I didn't have any realpeople judging me or looking at
you know, accountability in thatrespect.
But I put that on myself.
I mean the guilt and shame Ihad about because one of my
motivations for going intosocial work was to help break
(10:59):
the generational cycles oftrauma.
I mean I told myself early onI'm not going to do to my kids
what my parents did to me.
I'm not going to put them inthat same situation.
You know, and I absolutely didtowards the end of my drinking
and then the big part of mystory.
The part that I'm mostpassionate sharing about, is
that even in early recovery,when I was working on my
(11:24):
recovery really hard, I wasstill hurting my relationships
with my family because I, in avery fundamental way, you could
say, transferred my addictionfrom alcohol to recovery.
I put so much time and energyinto recovery that I distanced
myself from my family and mykids and I didn't you know they
(11:47):
were just as confused by my lackof presence and my emotional
distance from this new sober,janice, as they were by the
drinking Janice, and that causeda lot of problems.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And that caused a lot of problems.
So when you say you becameaddicted to your recovery, what
were you using, like a programor a course or some kind of what
?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
how did you?
Okay, yeah, great, and I knowthat you talked about AA and you
have a pretty positive attitudetowards it, right, I don't want
to put words in your mouth,yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I, I went to put words inyour mouth, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I, um, I went to aninpatient treatment program.
It was really kind of 12 stepbased, but it is a professional
program, but it does have thatfundamental like.
(12:35):
This is a great support system.
We want you to get connectedwith this.
It's a great relapse preventiontool.
Um, and the programs I had beenworking with as a young person
were 12-step based and I hadbeen involved in Al-Anon and ACA
when I first graduated collegeand was working in the field, so
(12:56):
I was very familiar with all ofthat and I embraced that.
So I went to treatment thinkingthat I was going to go for four
weeks, the typical generaltreatment program.
But when I got there, I and thetreatment program was about
four hours away from my homefour and a half hours so it made
it hard for my family to getinvolved in my treatment program
(13:17):
.
But when I got there and reallystarted embracing treatment and
opening up and disclosingthings I'd never talked about
before, some grief, somechildhood sexual abuse, an adult
sexual assault I ended upstaying, extending my stay from
four weeks to 12 weeks, andwhile I was really working on
(13:40):
myself and embracing that, Iwasn't working on the family
issues at home and emotionally Iwas distancing myself from them
and I know one of my corechildhood issues is fear of
abandonment and rejection.
And being that I had investedso much time and energy in my
(14:01):
30s reinforcing my identity andself-esteem as a mom, now it's
been taken away from me, Iprojected my fear of rejection
from others onto my kids and Ikind of built a wall between me
and my family so that by thetime I finished treatment I
shared this last week by thetime I finished treatment there
(14:26):
was some really angry, hostilefeelings from a couple members
of my family who let me back up,the treatment center was very
individual, focused and offereda family program, but that was
not the primary and not an offerto family program, but that was
(14:47):
not the primary.
Families were not involved verymuch and because of them being
so far, it was not easy for themto get involved in any kind of
family treatment.
So their interactions with mycounselors and stuff was kind of
conflictual, to put it in anice way, and by the time I was
ending that you know the last ofthat treatment.
(15:07):
They're like we don't, we thinkyou should go to a halfway
house, we think that your homelife is not going to be
conducive to staying sober.
So during the next so I wentfrom treatment to a halfway
house.
Now, the good part about this,the thing I'm passionate about,
is that.
So I had 12 weeks of inpatienttreatment.
I did three or four months in ahalfway house and then another
(15:30):
year and like a three quarterway sober living house, which
has given me a phenomenalfoundation for my sobriety.
No judgment against anyone whohas relapsed, but I feel like
that's probably the number onereasons why I've endured a lot
of losses in sobriety withoutrelapsing.
(15:52):
Does that make sense?
So the good part of all of thatis that I got a really good
foundation to my sobriety.
The bad part of that is that forthe first six months, I
distanced myself from my kidsand my family and we made no
progress on our relationship.
And if you were talking to mydaughter I don't want to put
words in her mouth, but she'sthe most vocal about it, she'll
(16:15):
say that it was just as bad as,like the last few years of my
drinking.
So, to make a long story short,when I finally woke up, got to
the other side of that and sawthat I had repeated the same
patterns that I had helpedpeople with 30 years before,
(16:35):
when I was a family therapistand inpatient treatment, and
that the woman I lived with atthe halfway house and my sober
living, my peers and several, alot of us had this distance
between our family members, Imean, and to this day some of
them still haven't repaired someof their relationships.
(16:56):
So when I got to the other sideof that, the first thing I did
was work on my family, on thoserelationships, and try to repair
them and rebuild them, becauseit was heartbreaking, you know I
, it's heartbreaking.
Early sobriety is rough enoughand then to be like your family,
to not want to be with you, ispainful.
(17:18):
So I started taking this riskfear of rejection, getting used
to rejection, making mistakes,going back to the books, because
I'm a student at heart, astudent and teacher heart, which
, again, that's the crazy thinghere I am.
I know this stuff but it'stough to apply it to yourself.
That's the crazy thing.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Here I am.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I know this stuff but it's tough to apply it to
yourself.
So but it, since when you wentto treatment, they ranged from
13 to 21.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So eighth grade, 10th grade and two kids in college,
critical time really in thatadolescence period, there's a
lot going on.
Anyway.
They had known you as, likethis kind of drinking mom, like
addiction lifestyle, um, andthen you went to treatment.
I don't want, I don't want toyou to say any more than you are
comfortable with completely.
I'm curious if there's a way,in a general way or whatever you
(18:13):
want, if you could just justvery quickly share a little bit
more about what they were sayingto you when you were behaving
like.
What were they?
What were the issues with youfrom them, your treatment, why
were they?
Why did they not want to beclose to you?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, essentially I was still abandoning them.
I was still emotionallyunavailable, still abandoning
them.
I was still emotionallyunavailable.
Okay, to go back to some of mycore issues.
Growing up in my family my rolewas the mascot, the cute one,
the superficial.
Make everyone happy.
Instead, those earlyinteractions in the first few
months of my kids were all mebeing superficial and like I
(18:53):
think we had at the most, twovisits in those 12 weeks to my
treatment at my treatment centerand halfway through one of them
because I was like, oh, talkingabout the treatment facility, I
was talking about the weather,I talked about this big storm we
had where the power had beenout for a couple of days and
like halfway through this visit,my daughter like stops,
(19:17):
everything is like I don't careabout this stuff.
I want to know how you aredoing.
Are you making changes?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
You know and Okay, so let me see if I'm getting this.
So I'm just trying to get I wasjust trying to get a little bit
of a deeper understandingbecause it's pertinent and
really, I think, relatableprobably to our listeners.
So when they visited you whichI get, it was a little far away
so you didn't have visits.
I assume, maybe at phone callsor something, when they did that
(19:49):
, you were only talking aboutyourself.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
They were.
They were picking up from youthat you weren't like asking how
was school or what's going onat home, or you know, how's the
doll like, whatever, how's yourfriend?
That you weren't asking them orengaging them about things
about their life.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Well, I was engaging a little bit, but on a
superficial level, not reallyasking about how they're doing,
and I do think that our familyfell into that where they were
embarrassed and didn't.
They felt really isolated andalone because they couldn't
share with their friends andfamily you know, I mean their
friends and schoolmates aboutwhat was going on.
(20:29):
So I felt like they werelooking for more when they came
to see me and I was so fearfulthat I couldn't offer any real
in-depth authenticity.
I was fake.
I was still acting fake infront of them and my daughter
called me out on it.
That's the best way to put it.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So it sounds like they were looking for or, from
what you know, they were lookingfor a little bit more of an
emotional connection from you,meaning like they were looking
for you to care about theirfeelings and like how you
affected them.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Okay and to start the apology process and ask them
about what they were feeling.
And frankly, at that time I wasstill well, I was.
I was still too afraid of whatthey might tell me.
I mean, I started treatmentthinking what I did wasn't that
bad, not recognizing what hadhappened during blackouts or
(21:21):
that their impression of whatwas that bad is very valid.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right.
Well, that's the reason why Ithink it sounds like you use the
12 step program to be sober.
Is that?
Is that true or not?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yes, I definitely used it to be sober.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Okay.
So I mean there's a reason whythe steps are numbered for a
reason.
I mean there's a reason whythey're numbered for like,
because when you're one monthsober, or 12 weeks, or six
months even, or you sometimeslike, you're not prepared, um,
emotionally or with the correctmindset to go to anybody with
any kind of amends.
Now sometimes we can do sort oflike an initial one, like, oh
(21:57):
my gosh, I'm just like, I'm justlike so sorry, how, like how
this is going.
But to do it like a formal,like I'm from the bottom of my
heart recognizing my part inthis situation, like we're not
prepared to do that for a longtime.
It needs to be a lot of work,and so I think, but I think our
family members are looking forsomething right.
They want to hear at least alittle bit of something.
(22:19):
I want to hear someaccountability.
Usually, whatever we can offerat that time is the best we can
do at that time.
So, like to give some grace toyou and to any of us who have
done this journey.
You know, when you're at thatpoint you can only give what you
got right.
So you're trying to say to themlike look, I totally get it.
Like this must suck, for youlike to not have your mom at
(22:40):
home.
You know like that, like that'sall you can do at that time,
you know.
And then, and also young peopledon't understand that either,
because they're developingbrains, you know, like they're
also not emotionally matureenough to like sort of
understand and they also, bynature and developmental stage,
(23:01):
completely self-centered.
Right, you know what I mean.
So it's an interesting dynamicthat you had there with dealing
with people who are naturallycompletely self-centered,
somebody who was also naturallycompletely self-centered because
of addiction right, trying toheal and get right.
It just seemed like a perfectstorm.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Maybe you know it is, it really is.
I just really tried to assumeas much responsibility for my
part as possible, you know,because I believe and looking
back now and in the research andinterviews I've done, I think
there's ways we could haveimproved upon it.
You know things that could havemade it better, which is what
(23:42):
kind of became my mission earlyon.
So in early sobriety Ivolunteer and go back to my
treatment facility and I wasalways like please reach out to
your kids, even if it's just aletter, make those calls, you
know, just trying to plant thatseed that we need to give our
family members hope that we it'snot going to be a quick switch,
(24:04):
we're not going to flip aswitch and be normal again and
be that mom that we were.
Because for the first 10 yearsof my you know I have two kids,
a break in two kids, and theolder two kids will say, you
know they live with me for 10years without drinking, when I
was in my like superoverachieving mom status, you
know, volunteer queen andpart-time social worker, and so
(24:29):
they reflect back on that I waslike you were a good mom once.
But so they did have someexperience with healthy
parenting and whereas theyounger two did not, the younger
two just always knew medrinking.
Different experiences which isanother big point that I try to
press is each child's differentand, as you mentioned, different
(24:49):
developmental stages.
That 13-year-old was at apivotal point in his life.
Going from eighth grade toninth grade, changes going on in
his body, g eighth grade toninth grade, changes going on.
His body grew like six inchesthe year that I was away and my
oldest child was graduatingcollege and trying to navigate
real life, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
So they were it's a lot to manage.
Um, I mean, obviously you havefour children and that's already
just kind of a lot and just youknow to manage.
Just you know parenting them,all of the things paying for
them, and then you throw in justyou know the significantly
different developmental stagesand it's just a lot to manage.
(25:29):
You know, and when you're notwell, when you're not your best
self, you know, if you're livingin active addiction, it's going
to be really difficult to kindof meet all of those people at
their level of need at any giventime.
It doesn't mean that you're notlike doing a good job or you're
not a good mom.
It just means that, wow, likethis is just a challenge.
And then you throw on your ownchallenge, which was, you know,
is significant.
(25:49):
Plus you I think you were you'remarried at the time right,
right, right Marriage.
You know anything else.
You, if you're working, if youhave parents or family members
who need your help or God forbidyou have like friends or a life
.
I mean there's just like a lotgoing on.
So we're never doing anythingin a bubble, like we're not ever
(26:10):
just doing parenting like onething.
You know all of this otherstuff going on and I think, as
women kind of as you alluded tobefore, you know, we do take on,
just naturally, many of us dotake on like a lot of the burden
of that as the primarycaregivers and then again like
layering on all those otherthings.
And so, yes, when we aren'twell, you know, I don't care
(26:31):
what kind of self-care you havein place.
If you're not emotionally well,spiritually fit, if you haven't
done your own therapy, ifyou're still having negative
beliefs, kind of like running inthe background constantly,
you're not, it's going to bevery difficult for you to manage
those things period, let alonedo it really well.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Right, right, it's a balance.
It's really really a toughbalance to balance your and
that's where I say, like youknow, I felt like I invested all
my energy into my recovery andnot enough of a balance back
into the family.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So I would love for you to say more about that part.
Okay, so I would specificallylove to hear a little bit cause
I so the experience that I hadpersonally in the and where I
love to meet women along theroad.
What I hear from most of myguests is you know, early
sobriety we all kind of know isvery challenging and it has its
own, I would say about, likespecial needs.
Right, it's a sort of sectionwhere you're just going through
(27:25):
so much.
You're going through a lot ofphysical change.
You're like you might have likefamily problems, there might be
legal issues that are going on,trauma like, and so you're just
trying to learn how to livelife.
You know, without drinking ontrauma like, and so you're just
trying to learn how to live lifeyou know without drinking right
, help you.
And that is very difficult andusually does last six to twelve
months some, and then often more.
But after that first year I findand many of the people I talk
(27:48):
to that you kind of, we kind ofhave this um like an awakening
happen, right, you, oh, wow, Ifeel really good.
You know, like you, we are soberas we're ever going to be a
physically um, we generally canum, have solved some problems,
we feel better, we're startingto get in a little, and then the
world kind of opens up to uslike, oh, wow, like I, I can do,
(28:10):
I could have dreams, I can likewrite a book, I could.
I've always wanted to start abusiness or do whatever, and we
have opportunities now that justdidn't seem possible or
accessible to us.
So then that starts to come inRight, and then also this other
piece around as we continuethrough that kind of rebuilding
the relationships in our life,which is kind of like your main
(28:33):
focus in your, in your work, andthen also the biggest part of
your story, right, right, youcan think about like kind of
that, like after that first yearperiod, but like in that like
two to five and beyond yearswhen you were working a recovery
program and kind of doingthings like what are you?
That was still happening, ifyou felt like you were too much
involved with your recovery, notenough involved with your
(28:55):
family?
And, and if so, like in thattime range, what, what did?
What do you mean?
Like, can you paint the picturefor us?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I would say like about six
months sober, that's when I kindof woke up and went oh my God,
I've alienated my, I'vecontinued to alienate my family.
So I started I mean I wasliving away from home, so I
started going home more often,making phone calls instead of
letters, things like that.
I think the most importantthing that we do to help repair
(29:24):
relationships, which no onereally sees at first, is that we
have to stay sober or beworking on our recovery.
So during that time I mean Istill work on my recovery very
diligently.
I have lost too many friendsand seen too many friends
relapse without when you getcomplacent or overly confident.
(29:48):
So during that first period Ireally continued to work on the
program, but I made more of aneffort to include them, invite
them.
They thankfully my ex-husbandwas great and got them into some
therapy, you know, as soon as Iwent to treatment which was
helpful, but I just startedtalking to them more, telling
(30:11):
them more, I made a few mistakesand I would sometimes overshare
or make the expectation likethey'd be excited as excited for
me, like you want to come to myone year chip ceremony.
They'd be like no, and so Iwould have to and I took it to
therapy too.
I'd have to realize that's notpersonal, it's not them not
(30:32):
supporting me, it's they needmore time.
You know they're still nottrusting.
So what I did was work on myprogram, work on my internal
struggles I had avoided workingon, went back to working on my
ACA, my childhood issues with mytherapist and started taking
(30:58):
risks and involving them.
I did do some family therapywith my kids, with their
therapist, but I I think youneed here's one of my
philosophies that could becontroversial it's hard to do
family therapy with thetherapist who's seeing your
(31:19):
child individually or yourhusband individually.
I feel pretty strongly you needan objective third therapist or
coach.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, but so we did some family
therapy.
It wasn't really successful,but we just kept trying and I
got involved.
I learned to listen to themmore.
(31:40):
One of my favorite stories is inone of my first signs that my
kids were making a step towardsme was when my child, who was my
middle, my third child, middleson asked me and this is like a
year, year and a half intosobriety if I would take him on
his college trip to worse, andthis is a simple thing.
(32:01):
But it's all these littlethings that help build
relationships.
So I I mean I literally talkedto my sponsor, my therapist,
like I'm going to be in this carand sharing a hotel room with
this kid for two, maybe threedays.
That's a challenge, you know,for a lot of people, even the
best of situations.
So I got coaching and supportand help and advice from my
(32:25):
peers Because, again, eventhough you're been the therapist
, you don't always take your ownmedicine.
So I practiced every skill Icould, I took advantage of those
little moments and and thatwent a long way.
I mean I learned to sit quietlyfor hours at a time, not ramble
(32:46):
, not talk too much about myself, gently ask questions, take
advantage of those littlemoments where you go.
You know I wish you'd been atthat soccer game where I scored
three goals, you know, for me tobe able to go yeah, I wish I'd
been there too and offer alittle apology or a little
(33:06):
amends.
It came organically.
So it's kind of hard to explain, like, what I did, because it
was taking advantage of thoselittle moms, especially with
boys.
My social work hat goes.
Mothers and boys talkdifferently than mothers and
daughters, and maybe that'ssexist, but I do think there's
different ways to interact withboys, to get them to talk more
(33:29):
and more active and, yeah,that's a whole nother ballgame.
I hope there's some wisdom inthat.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So thank you so much for sharing again about.
I know it's hard sometimes whenwe get like into the nitty
gritty, personal, and that's whyI don't know, I feel
uncomfortable.
But sometimes it's helpful,just even in a general way, to
have other people share thesepersonal parts in like a general
way so that they can be like ohokay, I can see how, how that
this is happening in my, in myhouse, or like, and just so some
(33:58):
of the things that you said toothat were super that stand out
to me is like you werepersistent, like you guys just
didn't give up and kept trying.
oh, you tried the family therapy.
Yes, family therapy isextremely difficult.
It's very difficult to sit inthe room with everybody and have
people saying mean things ortelling their truth and you have
to take it and it's verypainful at times.
(34:19):
Or having the therapist saylike, hey, why don't you try to
do this?
Or you need to be doing thisand you're like, oh, you know,
sometimes we have that littletantrum.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I'm the mom.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So there's a lot of like kind of breaking down of
some of that stuff that happensin that process.
But what I liked and what Iheard was was persistence, like
you didn't give up.
And so I think when, whenfamilies are like that, and
especially in parenting or in orany relationship, when you're
just when, you're just committedto the thing, when you're
(34:51):
committed to the thing, likeeven in marriage, you know, like
you said, x, so I guess you'renot, you're not, you didn't
you're not married, but you know, you know how it is, though,
like it's very, very challengingand it's like sometimes the
easier, softer way does feellike let's just end this, but
but when you, but when you havea couple, that's that is saying
okay, well, we really both likeeach other, love each other.
(35:15):
Somehow we love each other, atone point we have these kids we
want, we're committed, we havezero clue how to do it.
We're not doing well, like, andthen they get the help, but
then they just keep tryingdifferent things.
You know, just don't give up.
I mean those are the things.
Just like business ownership,right?
I mean entrepreneurship, likewhat do they say?
I think seven to 10 years forsometimes things to take off.
So like, the ones that aresuccessful in certain areas of
(35:36):
entrepreneurship are the onlythey're only that way because
they didn't give up.
They're just trying, becauseeverybody else along the path
was like, well, it's been fouryears and I haven't been
successful.
So that's what I heard you say,that with your kids, and I, and
I love that, I think that's themessage.
And then the other thing that Iheard you say too, was just two
things, was just listening,just like taking an active
approach to listening.
I think one of the things withparenting young people,
(35:59):
especially my kids, are 21, 20,and 17.
So, like we're right in thethick of it.
But even before this, you know,is really just learning, and
having a being a therapist doeshelp a lot, um, and also a
recovery background, but we'restill parent, like I'm still the
mom and I'm also human, um but,I think learning how to just
(36:20):
listen and receive what they'resaying, even when it's the most
wild thing you've ever heard inyour life, is one of the best
skills in parenting.
Like not reacting to, like thething that they say and you're
just like, oh my gosh, like Imean, I've had that moment where
I was standing in the kitchenone of my kids said something
(36:40):
and I was just like wow, likethat's not how you were raised
at all, like, like, how could?
And I just had to kind oflisten and like, okay, oh, you
know you think that, oh, okay,because what is the reaction
going to do?
All of I go crazy and I have abig well, how could you say that
?
You know, like all she's goingto hear is oh, okay, it's not
(37:04):
okay for me to talk like that.
It's not okay for me to bringthings like that up to mom
because she's going to freak out.
It's not okay for me to behonest about how I'm feeling
right now because there's goingto be a big reaction or
consequence.
So, like you were sharing that.
And then the last part was thevalidation piece that you were
able to like, really validate,and that's what I always say in
my work and probably yours tooLike most people in life really
(37:24):
just want to be heard, seen andvalidated.
Yeah, any humans ever reallywant.
Most of us, that's all therapyis.
Listen, hearing them and thenjust literally validate like
totally get it.
Like man, that sucks.
You know, sometimes people haveno one in their life that can
do that for them, or has ever.
You know.
Someone shows up like a mom andyou're like, yeah, I, that
(37:44):
sucks that I missed that game.
You're right, I totally wish Iwas there.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
I that sucks, that I missed that game.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You're right.
I totally wish I was there too.
That's all they want to hear.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
It's very repairing it is.
I agree.
I think validation and goodlistening skills is is crucial.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So when you're working with people now in your
practice, I know that's whatpretty much your specialty.
Just to kind of end with somereally good stuff here, like
when you work with your clientsand they come to you on some of
the family stuff, like what aresome of like the top three
things, like where do you?
Start when someone's like in,like they're, they're past the
early recovery stuff.
We're not doing that, Likethey're in family but, they're
like having crisis orrelationship issues.
Where do you start with them?
Like, just give us some of likethe top things that maybe we
(38:22):
could walk away right now andstart using in our own lives.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Well, I think accountability is huge, you know
, taking ownership, validatinganother person's opinion and
values impression, becausemyself and my child could have
an you know experience, the sameexact event and perceive it
differently, and it may besomething I'm easy to brush off,
(38:47):
but for them it's heartbreaking.
So I have to validate theirexperience.
Being a good listener, I think,because I'm not in private
practice right now, I'm reallyjust speaking and talking and
working with other practitionersand trying to increase
awareness about how familytreatment can be involved.
(39:09):
Families can be involved intreatment earlier.
So I think it's also just thoseearly steps of communication
and a little bit like we willget there, inspiring some hope,
yeah, and not to give up.
That's crucial.
I mean, it breaks my heart andthis happens at least once a
month where I'm in a meeting andsomeone's you know shares that
(39:34):
they haven't talked to theirfour years, five years, six
years, sober, but haven't talkedto their family members for 10
years.
And you know I, if it's afamily worth reengaging, I want
to help people heal that loss ortry and address it.
Find the balance.
(39:54):
So balance oh my God, that'sprobably my key message is
balance.
You've got to have balance inall aspects of your recovery
social, physical, spiritual,emotional, mental.
And I think don't you have likefour tenants in your practice
too?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I have, like the pillars of my work, which my
work with people too, and butwhat I think, what you said is
so important and it really justkind of lays out the essentials,
right, the essentials of goodrelation, good healthy
relationships and, um, I thinkif we could all kind of grab
onto those and explore them alittle bit individually and then
(40:34):
with our people, uh, it wouldreally make the world a whole
different place, right, because,yeah, you learn to create space
for just people's differences,or you know people like create
space for people's ways ofviewing the world, or you know,
and not have to be right or nothave to make it right.
You know, like that's a hugepart of our societal, I think,
(40:56):
problems these days and whatcauses a lot of conflict is
people really get latched on tolike, well, but I was right and
I'm like, well, I mean who?
I mean maybe you were right foryou and that, and that's fine.
Like you believe that, but thatother person doesn't, and so
that can destroy relationshipsright there, like we watched it
happen, I think, in our society,and it's a shame because it
just doesn't have to.
(41:17):
You know, and I think also partof it is like especially in
parenting this shows up, butalso in all of these areas, you
know, if you have a child thatmaybe isn't completely aligned
with, like the way you think oryour values which is, by the way
, their job, right, their job isto invite, you know from us and
take what they want and leavethe rest and then discover their
own values that are separatefrom their parents, that's the
(41:38):
task of adolescence, right?
So then they're in adulthoodthinking like, oh, even though
my parents were, they reallyvalued, um, education, like they
just, you know, they put alltheir time and money in
education.
You know, I appreciate that.
But I really value, like, justadventure.
You know, I'm kind of into,like travel, I want to discover
stuff, I'm a creative, you know.
But if that's, if you have thatkind of unalignment, it doesn't
(42:00):
make one bad or wrong, it'sjust different.
And so I think, as the parent,being able to say like, oh, oh,
my gosh, that's, like, that's socool, I can't really relate to
that, like, I don't get it youknow cause?
I just don't get why you wouldwant to do this or be able to
like see it and then not havethe need and desire to like want
(42:20):
to convince them to come yourway.
I think that is the maturitypart of healthy relationships
right.
It's our job to convinceanybody of anything.
Yeah, I agree.
I thank you so much for yourtime.
I know you wrote a book.
Maybe you could share the titleor to get it.
How do people get ahold of youand find you if they want to
reach?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
out Okay.
So the book is calledRebuilding Relationships in
Recovery.
It's available everywhere.
It's under my name, janice VJohnson Dowd.
I have a website,janicejohnsondowdcom, and my
Instagram.
My main Instagram site isparenting underscore the word
(43:00):
I-N-N underscore recovery.
It's not just parenting onthere, too, because it's also a
lot of recovery information,motivational, inspirational.
But I really enjoy it.
And probably the other thing Iwant to say is let's expand the
recovery community.
I think it's really importantthat might be one of the
(43:21):
messages I missed a second agois that this disease can be very
isolating.
Families can feel very isolated.
You know, let's reach out,because I feel stronger when I
surround myself with people withsimilar needs and interest and
support.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, I get, I totally.
That's a whole nother episodethat we can see.
I'm on and I and I agree andyou know, I don't think anybody
you talk to now is is connectedto the recovery community in
some way.
You either are one, you'remarried to one, you were raised
by one, you're raising one, nomatter where you are or where
(43:58):
you live, you're exposed to it.
And so I agree, like when wespread our message of hope, when
we talk about real things andabout emotional maturity, we do
expand our recovery communityinto the little pockets of
society that really need to hearthat, you know, and that really
need to hear how to build thosehealthy relationships, how to
(44:20):
re-bridge the gaps right.
And even though there's so muchhurt there you know there's hurt
and pain and struggle there isopportunity for repair.
You know if people hurt andpain and struggle, there is
opportunity for repair.
You know if, if people arewilling to do that.
No, obviously there are somesituations that are, just, you
know, very toxic and tragic andcompletely abusive and not
acceptable.
(44:40):
Right right, but most I wouldsay most people are not in that
category.
Anyway, well, thank you foryour time, thank you for your
details and I'll make sure Ilink them to the show notes
below, and I hope you have afantastic day.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Same to you have a great day.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of
Confident Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about thesober freedom inner circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
(45:19):
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.
Well, hey there, sober ladies.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women podcast, and today I'mhaving a conversation with my
friend, janice Johnson-Dowd.
She is a social worker, she's arecovering alcoholic and a mom
of four and she's the author ofthe book Rebuilding
Relationships in Recovery, andthat is exactly what we talk
(00:22):
about this entire episode.
She shares on a deep personallevel about her recovery
experience, specifically intreatment.
She was able to go to along-term treatment facility and
then continued care after that.
We really get vulnerable aboutwhat her addiction history and
(00:44):
her response in her recovery didin her family, like how that
affected her children and herex-husband or husband at the
time, their dad, kind of thethings that she feels maybe
would have been better for herto do, how she could have
handled things differently.
Looking back now, I think thisis going to really help anybody
(01:06):
out there who is perhaps inmaybe early recovery or even not
.
If you're just still strugglingwith your family relationships
in relation to maybe how thingshave gone in your active
addiction up until now, or evenif you're been in recovery a
long time.
I mean, all of us havedifferent ages and stages in our
relationships, so I thinkyou're going to get a lot out of
(01:26):
this conversation.
So I want you to grab that bigglass of water or your favorite
mocktail and listen to thisconversation with Janice
Johnson-Dowd.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theConfident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one, and sober since July 1st
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(02:14):
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Hey there, janice.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confidence Over
Women podcast.
I'm so excited to have you onthe show and to have an amazing
conversation that I know ouraudience is going to enjoy.
(04:05):
So I'm going to turn the micover to you and let you share a
little bit more about your story, and then we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Okay, well, I'm very happy to be here and to share a
little bit, because I think themost important thing we do is to
tell our stories and reducestigma and reach out to others.
So, but I am an author, speaker, retired social worker I'm no
longer actively in practice orcoaching because I'm putting my
(04:34):
time into writing and teachingso, but I'm, more importantly,
I'm 12 years sober.
I'm the mother of four kids.
12 years sober, I'm the motherof four kids and despite being a
social worker and thinking thatI had some good self-help
skills, I started drinking in my40s and became, you know, a
(04:57):
full-blown alcoholic.
So I'm one of those later inlife drinkers, someone who avoid
all the early warning signs oftheir alcoholism, denial all of
that and start drinking anyhow.
So my story, a little more, is Igrew up in an alcoholic home.
(05:18):
My dad was, you know, yourtypical functioning alcoholic.
Our family life wasn't horrible, but it definitely was
confusing and dysfunctional andthere is no real guidance on how
to deal with emotions orfeelings, or it's a very
authoritative household.
(05:38):
So we never discussed my dad'sdrinking or the problems at home
.
So, of course, what does a kidfrom that family do?
We either grow up and have ourown problems.
We marry or get involved withpartners who have problems or we
(05:59):
become workers in the helpingprofessional, and that's what I
did.
So as a young person Iexperimented with alcohol or
drugs, but I already was so mucha codependent and controlling
person as a young person.
I experimented with alcohol ordrugs, but I already was so much
a codependent and controllingperson as a young person that I
didn't like the effect ofalcohol or drugs.
Alcohol made me feel out ofcontrol.
I only experimented with pot asa young person and that made me
feel paranoid.
(06:19):
So that really wasn't my escapefrom, you know, my emotional
struggles at home or as a kidgrowing up.
Instead, I had kind of ahealthy escape in that I was an
athlete and it kept me out oftrouble.
So I, of course, was drawn tothe helping professional, became
(06:43):
a social worker and steppedright into what I knew.
And this is the crazy part ofmy story, because I started out
my career in alcoholism andaddiction treatment working as a
family therapist, primarily ininpatient treatment centers, and
at that point I had some prettygood self-help skills and
(07:08):
worked on myself and I think Iwas on a path to some good
self-care.
But despite all that, like Isaid earlier, I still started
drinking in my 40s, was infull-blown denial and my
drinking just accelerated.
I believe in the geneticconcept of drinking, do you yeah
?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, and some ways I'm not a scientist.
So I think that first of all,by the way, thank you for
sharing your, your story.
I guess what I would say aboutit is I think that it's a very
complex and nuanced and Ihonestly think that we don't
really know.
I think sometimes we claim thatwe know.
I think that it is a familydisease, but I think it's also a
family disease from justnurture and generational trauma.
(07:51):
So I'm personally, as a traumatherapist, I and what we know
now about the brain research ontrauma and generational trauma
specifically, that we know thatthat gets passed down through
the mother, into the womb even,and then in in our DNA.
So so, yes, an addiction gene,like we can name it.
(08:13):
No, I don't.
I don't think that they'vediscovered that.
I don't know that they will.
I think what we mean by sayingit's genetic is it is a part of
our DNA composure, mostly fromyeah, and I agree with all that.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And I, you know, I look back in my family history.
Both of my parents came fromfamilies that had alcoholism in
it, you know.
So I feel like, if nothing elsebehaviorally, I'm predisposed
to it socially, but, you know, Ido feel like there is, you know
, probably a linkphysiologically.
(08:48):
So, however, despite that,again, you know, I started
drinking and at first it startedout very slow.
It built throughout my fortiesuntil I feel like I tipped the
scales and became a full blownalcoholic, had to get a
treatment.
Now I want to back up and say alittle bit so early on I had
(09:08):
some good self-help skills,self-care skills, but as I was
having kids and in my 30s, Ifound that and I think this is
real common, and that's one ofthe reasons why I love the topic
of your, the concept of yourpodcast, because it's about
women and moms, becausepersonally, I felt like in my
(09:30):
30s, when I was pregnant, havingchildren, trying to manage a
career, that I really struggledand that also fueled my feelings
of poor self-esteem.
It triggered all thosechildhood issues of feeling like
I was never going to be goodenough, I could never get enough
stuff done, and that fueled thedrinking.
(09:51):
I'm not explaining the drinking, but I just want to point that
out because I think I'm not theonly one.
I think there's a lot of womenout there who struggle with
balancing home life, family lifeand taking care of themselves.
That's one of the reasons why.
You know, drink is a quick fixto all of that.
It is a quick way to reducestress and distract from the
(10:17):
drudgery at times or the stressat times.
But my drinking advanced.
I felt a lot of guilt and shametowards the end of my drinking
because of being a social worker.
At that point in my life I wasnot working actively in the
professionally the social workfield.
I was involved in morevolunteer activities.
(10:37):
So I didn't have any realpeople judging me or looking at
you know, accountability in thatrespect.
But I put that on myself.
I mean the guilt and shame Ihad about because one of my
motivations for going intosocial work was to help break
(10:59):
the generational cycles oftrauma.
I mean I told myself early onI'm not going to do to my kids
what my parents did to me.
I'm not going to put them inthat same situation.
You know, and I absolutely didtowards the end of my drinking
and then the big part of mystory.
The part that I'm mostpassionate sharing about, is
that even in early recovery,when I was working on my
(11:24):
recovery really hard, I wasstill hurting my relationships
with my family because I, in avery fundamental way, you could
say, transferred my addictionfrom alcohol to recovery.
I put so much time and energyinto recovery that I distanced
myself from my family and mykids and I didn't you know they
(11:47):
were just as confused by my lackof presence and my emotional
distance from this new sober,janice, as they were by the
drinking Janice, and that causeda lot of problems.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And that caused a lot of problems.
So when you say you becameaddicted to your recovery, what
were you using, like a programor a course or some kind of what
?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
how did you?
Okay, yeah, great, and I knowthat you talked about AA and you
have a pretty positive attitudetowards it, right, I don't want
to put words in your mouth,yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I, I went to put words inyour mouth, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I, um, I went to aninpatient treatment program.
It was really kind of 12 stepbased, but it is a professional
program, but it does have thatfundamental like.
(12:35):
This is a great support system.
We want you to get connectedwith this.
It's a great relapse preventiontool.
Um, and the programs I had beenworking with as a young person
were 12-step based and I hadbeen involved in Al-Anon and ACA
when I first graduated collegeand was working in the field, so
(12:56):
I was very familiar with all ofthat and I embraced that.
So I went to treatment thinkingthat I was going to go for four
weeks, the typical generaltreatment program.
But when I got there, I and thetreatment program was about
four hours away from my homefour and a half hours so it made
it hard for my family to getinvolved in my treatment program
(13:17):
.
But when I got there and reallystarted embracing treatment and
opening up and disclosingthings I'd never talked about
before, some grief, somechildhood sexual abuse, an adult
sexual assault I ended upstaying, extending my stay from
four weeks to 12 weeks, andwhile I was really working on
(13:40):
myself and embracing that, Iwasn't working on the family
issues at home and emotionally Iwas distancing myself from them
and I know one of my corechildhood issues is fear of
abandonment and rejection.
And being that I had investedso much time and energy in my
(14:01):
30s reinforcing my identity andself-esteem as a mom, now it's
been taken away from me, Iprojected my fear of rejection
from others onto my kids and Ikind of built a wall between me
and my family so that by thetime I finished treatment I
shared this last week by thetime I finished treatment there
(14:26):
was some really angry, hostilefeelings from a couple members
of my family who let me back up,the treatment center was very
individual, focused and offereda family program, but that was
not the primary and not an offerto family program, but that was
(14:47):
not the primary.
Families were not involved verymuch and because of them being
so far, it was not easy for themto get involved in any kind of
family treatment.
So their interactions with mycounselors and stuff was kind of
conflictual, to put it in anice way, and by the time I was
ending that you know the last ofthat treatment.
(15:07):
They're like we don't, we thinkyou should go to a halfway
house, we think that your homelife is not going to be
conducive to staying sober.
So during the next so I wentfrom treatment to a halfway
house.
Now, the good part about this,the thing I'm passionate about,
is that.
So I had 12 weeks of inpatienttreatment.
I did three or four months in ahalfway house and then another
(15:30):
year and like a three quarterway sober living house, which
has given me a phenomenalfoundation for my sobriety.
No judgment against anyone whohas relapsed, but I feel like
that's probably the number onereasons why I've endured a lot
of losses in sobriety withoutrelapsing.
(15:52):
Does that make sense?
So the good part of all of thatis that I got a really good
foundation to my sobriety.
The bad part of that is that forthe first six months, I
distanced myself from my kidsand my family and we made no
progress on our relationship.
And if you were talking to mydaughter I don't want to put
words in her mouth, but she'sthe most vocal about it, she'll
(16:15):
say that it was just as bad as,like the last few years of my
drinking.
So, to make a long story short,when I finally woke up, got to
the other side of that and sawthat I had repeated the same
patterns that I had helpedpeople with 30 years before,
(16:35):
when I was a family therapistand inpatient treatment, and
that the woman I lived with atthe halfway house and my sober
living, my peers and several, alot of us had this distance
between our family members, Imean, and to this day some of
them still haven't repaired someof their relationships.
(16:56):
So when I got to the other sideof that, the first thing I did
was work on my family, on thoserelationships, and try to repair
them and rebuild them, becauseit was heartbreaking, you know I
, it's heartbreaking.
Early sobriety is rough enoughand then to be like your family,
to not want to be with you, ispainful.
(17:18):
So I started taking this riskfear of rejection, getting used
to rejection, making mistakes,going back to the books, because
I'm a student at heart, astudent and teacher heart, which
, again, that's the crazy thinghere I am.
I know this stuff but it'stough to apply it to yourself.
That's the crazy thing.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Here I am.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I know this stuff but it's tough to apply it to
yourself.
So but it, since when you wentto treatment, they ranged from
13 to 21.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So eighth grade, 10th grade and two kids in college,
critical time really in thatadolescence period, there's a
lot going on.
Anyway.
They had known you as, likethis kind of drinking mom, like
addiction lifestyle, um, andthen you went to treatment.
I don't want, I don't want toyou to say any more than you are
comfortable with completely.
I'm curious if there's a way,in a general way or whatever you
(18:13):
want, if you could just justvery quickly share a little bit
more about what they were sayingto you when you were behaving
like.
What were they?
What were the issues with youfrom them, your treatment, why
were they?
Why did they not want to beclose to you?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, essentially I was still abandoning them.
I was still emotionallyunavailable, still abandoning
them.
I was still emotionallyunavailable.
Okay, to go back to some of mycore issues.
Growing up in my family my rolewas the mascot, the cute one,
the superficial.
Make everyone happy.
Instead, those earlyinteractions in the first few
months of my kids were all mebeing superficial and like I
(18:53):
think we had at the most, twovisits in those 12 weeks to my
treatment at my treatment centerand halfway through one of them
because I was like, oh, talkingabout the treatment facility, I
was talking about the weather,I talked about this big storm we
had where the power had beenout for a couple of days and
like halfway through this visit,my daughter like stops,
(19:17):
everything is like I don't careabout this stuff.
I want to know how you aredoing.
Are you making changes?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
You know and Okay, so let me see if I'm getting this.
So I'm just trying to get I wasjust trying to get a little bit
of a deeper understandingbecause it's pertinent and
really, I think, relatableprobably to our listeners.
So when they visited you whichI get, it was a little far away
so you didn't have visits.
I assume, maybe at phone callsor something, when they did that
(19:49):
, you were only talking aboutyourself.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
They were.
They were picking up from youthat you weren't like asking how
was school or what's going onat home, or you know, how's the
doll like, whatever, how's yourfriend?
That you weren't asking them orengaging them about things
about their life.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Well, I was engaging a little bit, but on a
superficial level, not reallyasking about how they're doing,
and I do think that our familyfell into that where they were
embarrassed and didn't.
They felt really isolated andalone because they couldn't
share with their friends andfamily you know, I mean their
friends and schoolmates aboutwhat was going on.
(20:29):
So I felt like they werelooking for more when they came
to see me and I was so fearfulthat I couldn't offer any real
in-depth authenticity.
I was fake.
I was still acting fake infront of them and my daughter
called me out on it.
That's the best way to put it.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So it sounds like they were looking for or, from
what you know, they were lookingfor a little bit more of an
emotional connection from you,meaning like they were looking
for you to care about theirfeelings and like how you
affected them.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Okay and to start the apology process and ask them
about what they were feeling.
And frankly, at that time I wasstill well, I was.
I was still too afraid of whatthey might tell me.
I mean, I started treatmentthinking what I did wasn't that
bad, not recognizing what hadhappened during blackouts or
(21:21):
that their impression of whatwas that bad is very valid.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right.
Well, that's the reason why Ithink it sounds like you use the
12 step program to be sober.
Is that?
Is that true or not?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yes, I definitely used it to be sober.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Okay.
So I mean there's a reason whythe steps are numbered for a
reason.
I mean there's a reason whythey're numbered for like,
because when you're one monthsober, or 12 weeks, or six
months even, or you sometimeslike, you're not prepared, um,
emotionally or with the correctmindset to go to anybody with
any kind of amends.
Now sometimes we can do sort oflike an initial one, like, oh
(21:57):
my gosh, I'm just like, I'm justlike so sorry, how, like how
this is going.
But to do it like a formal,like I'm from the bottom of my
heart recognizing my part inthis situation, like we're not
prepared to do that for a longtime.
It needs to be a lot of work,and so I think, but I think our
family members are looking forsomething right.
They want to hear at least alittle bit of something.
(22:19):
I want to hear someaccountability.
Usually, whatever we can offerat that time is the best we can
do at that time.
So, like to give some grace toyou and to any of us who have
done this journey.
You know, when you're at thatpoint you can only give what you
got right.
So you're trying to say to themlike look, I totally get it.
Like this must suck, for youlike to not have your mom at
(22:40):
home.
You know like that, like that'sall you can do at that time,
you know.
And then, and also young peopledon't understand that either,
because they're developingbrains, you know, like they're
also not emotionally matureenough to like sort of
understand and they also, bynature and developmental stage,
(23:01):
completely self-centered.
Right, you know what I mean.
So it's an interesting dynamicthat you had there with dealing
with people who are naturallycompletely self-centered,
somebody who was also naturallycompletely self-centered because
of addiction right, trying toheal and get right.
It just seemed like a perfectstorm.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Maybe you know it is, it really is.
I just really tried to assumeas much responsibility for my
part as possible, you know,because I believe and looking
back now and in the research andinterviews I've done, I think
there's ways we could haveimproved upon it.
You know things that could havemade it better, which is what
(23:42):
kind of became my mission earlyon.
So in early sobriety Ivolunteer and go back to my
treatment facility and I wasalways like please reach out to
your kids, even if it's just aletter, make those calls, you
know, just trying to plant thatseed that we need to give our
family members hope that we it'snot going to be a quick switch,
(24:04):
we're not going to flip aswitch and be normal again and
be that mom that we were.
Because for the first 10 yearsof my you know I have two kids,
a break in two kids, and theolder two kids will say, you
know they live with me for 10years without drinking, when I
was in my like superoverachieving mom status, you
know, volunteer queen andpart-time social worker, and so
(24:29):
they reflect back on that I waslike you were a good mom once.
But so they did have someexperience with healthy
parenting and whereas theyounger two did not, the younger
two just always knew medrinking.
Different experiences which isanother big point that I try to
press is each child's differentand, as you mentioned, different
(24:49):
developmental stages.
That 13-year-old was at apivotal point in his life.
Going from eighth grade toninth grade, changes going on in
his body, g eighth grade toninth grade, changes going on.
His body grew like six inchesthe year that I was away and my
oldest child was graduatingcollege and trying to navigate
real life, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
So they were it's a lot to manage.
Um, I mean, obviously you havefour children and that's already
just kind of a lot and just youknow to manage.
Just you know parenting them,all of the things paying for
them, and then you throw in justyou know the significantly
different developmental stagesand it's just a lot to manage.
(25:29):
You know, and when you're notwell, when you're not your best
self, you know, if you're livingin active addiction, it's going
to be really difficult to kindof meet all of those people at
their level of need at any giventime.
It doesn't mean that you're notlike doing a good job or you're
not a good mom.
It just means that, wow, likethis is just a challenge.
And then you throw on your ownchallenge, which was, you know,
is significant.
(25:49):
Plus you I think you were you'remarried at the time right,
right, right Marriage.
You know anything else.
You, if you're working, if youhave parents or family members
who need your help or God forbidyou have like friends or a life
.
I mean there's just like a lotgoing on.
So we're never doing anythingin a bubble, like we're not ever
(26:10):
just doing parenting like onething.
You know all of this otherstuff going on and I think, as
women kind of as you alluded tobefore, you know, we do take on,
just naturally, many of us dotake on like a lot of the burden
of that as the primarycaregivers and then again like
layering on all those otherthings.
And so, yes, when we aren'twell, you know, I don't care
(26:31):
what kind of self-care you havein place.
If you're not emotionally well,spiritually fit, if you haven't
done your own therapy, ifyou're still having negative
beliefs, kind of like running inthe background constantly,
you're not, it's going to bevery difficult for you to manage
those things period, let alonedo it really well.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Right, right, it's a balance.
It's really really a toughbalance to balance your and
that's where I say, like youknow, I felt like I invested all
my energy into my recovery andnot enough of a balance back
into the family.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So I would love for you to say more about that part.
Okay, so I would specificallylove to hear a little bit cause
I so the experience that I hadpersonally in the and where I
love to meet women along theroad.
What I hear from most of myguests is you know, early
sobriety we all kind of know isvery challenging and it has its
own, I would say about, likespecial needs.
Right, it's a sort of sectionwhere you're just going through
(27:25):
so much.
You're going through a lot ofphysical change.
You're like you might have likefamily problems, there might be
legal issues that are going on,trauma like, and so you're just
trying to learn how to livelife.
You know, without drinking ontrauma like, and so you're just
trying to learn how to live lifeyou know without drinking right
, help you.
And that is very difficult andusually does last six to twelve
months some, and then often more.
But after that first year I findand many of the people I talk
(27:48):
to that you kind of, we kind ofhave this um like an awakening
happen, right, you, oh, wow, Ifeel really good.
You know, like you, we are soberas we're ever going to be a
physically um, we generally canum, have solved some problems,
we feel better, we're startingto get in a little, and then the
world kind of opens up to uslike, oh, wow, like I, I can do,
(28:10):
I could have dreams, I can likewrite a book, I could.
I've always wanted to start abusiness or do whatever, and we
have opportunities now that justdidn't seem possible or
accessible to us.
So then that starts to come inRight, and then also this other
piece around as we continuethrough that kind of rebuilding
the relationships in our life,which is kind of like your main
(28:33):
focus in your, in your work, andthen also the biggest part of
your story, right, right, youcan think about like kind of
that, like after that first yearperiod, but like in that like
two to five and beyond yearswhen you were working a recovery
program and kind of doingthings like what are you?
That was still happening, ifyou felt like you were too much
involved with your recovery, notenough involved with your
(28:55):
family?
And, and if so, like in thattime range, what, what did?
What do you mean?
Like, can you paint the picturefor us?
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I would say like about six
months sober, that's when I kindof woke up and went oh my God,
I've alienated my, I'vecontinued to alienate my family.
So I started I mean I wasliving away from home, so I
started going home more often,making phone calls instead of
letters, things like that.
I think the most importantthing that we do to help repair
(29:24):
relationships, which no onereally sees at first, is that we
have to stay sober or beworking on our recovery.
So during that time I mean Istill work on my recovery very
diligently.
I have lost too many friendsand seen too many friends
relapse without when you getcomplacent or overly confident.
(29:48):
So during that first period Ireally continued to work on the
program, but I made more of aneffort to include them, invite
them.
They thankfully my ex-husbandwas great and got them into some
therapy, you know, as soon as Iwent to treatment which was
helpful, but I just startedtalking to them more, telling
(30:11):
them more, I made a few mistakesand I would sometimes overshare
or make the expectation likethey'd be excited as excited for
me, like you want to come to myone year chip ceremony.
They'd be like no, and so Iwould have to and I took it to
therapy too.
I'd have to realize that's notpersonal, it's not them not
(30:32):
supporting me, it's they needmore time.
You know they're still nottrusting.
So what I did was work on myprogram, work on my internal
struggles I had avoided workingon, went back to working on my
ACA, my childhood issues with mytherapist and started taking
(30:58):
risks and involving them.
I did do some family therapywith my kids, with their
therapist, but I I think youneed here's one of my
philosophies that could becontroversial it's hard to do
family therapy with thetherapist who's seeing your
(31:19):
child individually or yourhusband individually.
I feel pretty strongly you needan objective third therapist or
coach.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, but so we did some family
therapy.
It wasn't really successful,but we just kept trying and I
got involved.
I learned to listen to themmore.
(31:40):
One of my favorite stories is inone of my first signs that my
kids were making a step towardsme was when my child, who was my
middle, my third child, middleson asked me and this is like a
year, year and a half intosobriety if I would take him on
his college trip to worse, andthis is a simple thing.
(32:01):
But it's all these littlethings that help build
relationships.
So I I mean I literally talkedto my sponsor, my therapist,
like I'm going to be in this carand sharing a hotel room with
this kid for two, maybe threedays.
That's a challenge, you know,for a lot of people, even the
best of situations.
So I got coaching and supportand help and advice from my
(32:25):
peers Because, again, eventhough you're been the therapist
, you don't always take your ownmedicine.
So I practiced every skill Icould, I took advantage of those
little moments and and thatwent a long way.
I mean I learned to sit quietlyfor hours at a time, not ramble
(32:46):
, not talk too much about myself, gently ask questions, take
advantage of those littlemoments where you go.
You know I wish you'd been atthat soccer game where I scored
three goals, you know, for me tobe able to go yeah, I wish I'd
been there too and offer alittle apology or a little
(33:06):
amends.
It came organically.
So it's kind of hard to explain, like, what I did, because it
was taking advantage of thoselittle moms, especially with
boys.
My social work hat goes.
Mothers and boys talkdifferently than mothers and
daughters, and maybe that'ssexist, but I do think there's
different ways to interact withboys, to get them to talk more
(33:29):
and more active and, yeah,that's a whole nother ballgame.
I hope there's some wisdom inthat.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
So thank you so much for sharing again about.
I know it's hard sometimes whenwe get like into the nitty
gritty, personal, and that's whyI don't know, I feel
uncomfortable.
But sometimes it's helpful,just even in a general way, to
have other people share thesepersonal parts in like a general
way so that they can be like ohokay, I can see how, how that
this is happening in my, in myhouse, or like, and just so some
(33:58):
of the things that you said toothat were super that stand out
to me is like you werepersistent, like you guys just
didn't give up and kept trying.
oh, you tried the family therapy.
Yes, family therapy isextremely difficult.
It's very difficult to sit inthe room with everybody and have
people saying mean things ortelling their truth and you have
to take it and it's verypainful at times.
(34:19):
Or having the therapist saylike, hey, why don't you try to
do this?
Or you need to be doing thisand you're like, oh, you know,
sometimes we have that littletantrum.
I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
I'm the mom.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
So there's a lot of like kind of breaking down of
some of that stuff that happensin that process.
But what I liked and what Iheard was was persistence, like
you didn't give up.
And so I think when, whenfamilies are like that, and
especially in parenting or in orany relationship, when you're
just when, you're just committedto the thing, when you're
(34:51):
committed to the thing, likeeven in marriage, you know, like
you said, x, so I guess you'renot, you're not, you didn't
you're not married, but you know, you know how it is, though,
like it's very, very challengingand it's like sometimes the
easier, softer way does feellike let's just end this, but
but when you, but when you havea couple, that's that is saying
okay, well, we really both likeeach other, love each other.
(35:15):
Somehow we love each other, atone point we have these kids we
want, we're committed, we havezero clue how to do it.
We're not doing well, like, andthen they get the help, but
then they just keep tryingdifferent things.
You know, just don't give up.
I mean those are the things.
Just like business ownership,right?
I mean entrepreneurship, likewhat do they say?
I think seven to 10 years forsometimes things to take off.
So like, the ones that aresuccessful in certain areas of
(35:36):
entrepreneurship are the onlythey're only that way because
they didn't give up.
They're just trying, becauseeverybody else along the path
was like, well, it's been fouryears and I haven't been
successful.
So that's what I heard you say,that with your kids, and I, and
I love that, I think that's themessage.
And then the other thing that Iheard you say too, was just two
things, was just listening,just like taking an active
approach to listening.
I think one of the things withparenting young people,
(35:59):
especially my kids, are 21, 20,and 17.
So, like we're right in thethick of it.
But even before this, you know,is really just learning, and
having a being a therapist doeshelp a lot, um, and also a
recovery background, but we'restill parent, like I'm still the
mom and I'm also human, um but,I think learning how to just
(36:20):
listen and receive what they'resaying, even when it's the most
wild thing you've ever heard inyour life, is one of the best
skills in parenting.
Like not reacting to, like thething that they say and you're
just like, oh my gosh, like Imean, I've had that moment where
I was standing in the kitchenone of my kids said something
(36:40):
and I was just like wow, likethat's not how you were raised
at all, like, like, how could?
And I just had to kind oflisten and like, okay, oh, you
know you think that, oh, okay,because what is the reaction
going to do?
All of I go crazy and I have abig well, how could you say that
?
You know, like all she's goingto hear is oh, okay, it's not
(37:04):
okay for me to talk like that.
It's not okay for me to bringthings like that up to mom
because she's going to freak out.
It's not okay for me to behonest about how I'm feeling
right now because there's goingto be a big reaction or
consequence.
So, like you were sharing that.
And then the last part was thevalidation piece that you were
able to like, really validate,and that's what I always say in
my work and probably yours tooLike most people in life really
(37:24):
just want to be heard, seen andvalidated.
Yeah, any humans ever reallywant.
Most of us, that's all therapyis.
Listen, hearing them and thenjust literally validate like
totally get it.
Like man, that sucks.
You know, sometimes people haveno one in their life that can
do that for them, or has ever.
You know.
Someone shows up like a mom andyou're like, yeah, I, that
(37:44):
sucks that I missed that game.
You're right, I totally wish Iwas there.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
I that sucks, that I missed that game.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You're right.
I totally wish I was there too.
That's all they want to hear.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
It's very repairing it is.
I agree.
I think validation and goodlistening skills is is crucial.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So when you're working with people now in your
practice, I know that's whatpretty much your specialty.
Just to kind of end with somereally good stuff here, like
when you work with your clientsand they come to you on some of
the family stuff, like what aresome of like the top three
things, like where do you?
Start when someone's like in,like they're, they're past the
early recovery stuff.
We're not doing that, Likethey're in family but, they're
like having crisis orrelationship issues.
Where do you start with them?
Like, just give us some of likethe top things that maybe we
(38:22):
could walk away right now andstart using in our own lives.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Well, I think accountability is huge, you know
, taking ownership, validatinganother person's opinion and
values impression, becausemyself and my child could have
an you know experience, the sameexact event and perceive it
differently, and it may besomething I'm easy to brush off,
(38:47):
but for them it's heartbreaking.
So I have to validate theirexperience.
Being a good listener, I think,because I'm not in private
practice right now, I'm reallyjust speaking and talking and
working with other practitionersand trying to increase
awareness about how familytreatment can be involved.
(39:09):
Families can be involved intreatment earlier.
So I think it's also just thoseearly steps of communication
and a little bit like we willget there, inspiring some hope,
yeah, and not to give up.
That's crucial.
I mean, it breaks my heart andthis happens at least once a
month where I'm in a meeting andsomeone's you know shares that
(39:34):
they haven't talked to theirfour years, five years, six
years, sober, but haven't talkedto their family members for 10
years.
And you know I, if it's afamily worth reengaging, I want
to help people heal that loss ortry and address it.
Find the balance.
(39:54):
So balance oh my God, that'sprobably my key message is
balance.
You've got to have balance inall aspects of your recovery
social, physical, spiritual,emotional, mental.
And I think don't you have likefour tenants in your practice
too?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I have, like the pillars of my work, which my
work with people too, and butwhat I think, what you said is
so important and it really justkind of lays out the essentials,
right, the essentials of goodrelation, good healthy
relationships and, um, I thinkif we could all kind of grab
onto those and explore them alittle bit individually and then
(40:34):
with our people, uh, it wouldreally make the world a whole
different place, right, because,yeah, you learn to create space
for just people's differences,or you know people like create
space for people's ways ofviewing the world, or you know,
and not have to be right or nothave to make it right.
You know, like that's a hugepart of our societal, I think,
(40:56):
problems these days and whatcauses a lot of conflict is
people really get latched on tolike, well, but I was right and
I'm like, well, I mean who?
I mean maybe you were right foryou and that, and that's fine.
Like you believe that, but thatother person doesn't, and so
that can destroy relationshipsright there, like we watched it
happen, I think, in our society,and it's a shame because it
just doesn't have to.
(41:17):
You know, and I think also partof it is like especially in
parenting this shows up, butalso in all of these areas, you
know, if you have a child thatmaybe isn't completely aligned
with, like the way you think oryour values which is, by the way
, their job, right, their job isto invite, you know from us and
take what they want and leavethe rest and then discover their
own values that are separatefrom their parents, that's the
(41:38):
task of adolescence, right?
So then they're in adulthoodthinking like, oh, even though
my parents were, they reallyvalued, um, education, like they
just, you know, they put alltheir time and money in
education.
You know, I appreciate that.
But I really value, like, justadventure.
You know, I'm kind of into,like travel, I want to discover
stuff, I'm a creative, you know.
But if that's, if you have thatkind of unalignment, it doesn't
(42:00):
make one bad or wrong, it'sjust different.
And so I think, as the parent,being able to say like, oh, oh,
my gosh, that's, like, that's socool, I can't really relate to
that, like, I don't get it youknow cause?
I just don't get why you wouldwant to do this or be able to
like see it and then not havethe need and desire to like want
(42:20):
to convince them to come yourway.
I think that is the maturitypart of healthy relationships
right.
It's our job to convinceanybody of anything.
Yeah, I agree.
I thank you so much for yourtime.
I know you wrote a book.
Maybe you could share the titleor to get it.
How do people get ahold of youand find you if they want to
reach?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
out Okay.
So the book is calledRebuilding Relationships in
Recovery.
It's available everywhere.
It's under my name, janice VJohnson Dowd.
I have a website,janicejohnsondowdcom, and my
Instagram.
My main Instagram site isparenting underscore the word
(43:00):
I-N-N underscore recovery.
It's not just parenting onthere, too, because it's also a
lot of recovery information,motivational, inspirational.
But I really enjoy it.
And probably the other thing Iwant to say is let's expand the
recovery community.
I think it's really importantthat might be one of the
(43:21):
messages I missed a second agois that this disease can be very
isolating.
Families can feel very isolated.
You know, let's reach out,because I feel stronger when I
surround myself with people withsimilar needs and interest and
support.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, I get, I totally.
That's a whole nother episodethat we can see.
I'm on and I and I agree andyou know, I don't think anybody
you talk to now is is connectedto the recovery community in
some way.
You either are one, you'remarried to one, you were raised
by one, you're raising one, nomatter where you are or where
(43:58):
you live, you're exposed to it.
And so I agree, like when wespread our message of hope, when
we talk about real things andabout emotional maturity, we do
expand our recovery communityinto the little pockets of
society that really need to hearthat, you know, and that really
need to hear how to build thosehealthy relationships, how to
(44:20):
re-bridge the gaps right.
And even though there's so muchhurt there you know there's hurt
and pain and struggle there isopportunity for repair.
You know if people hurt andpain and struggle, there is
opportunity for repair.
You know if, if people arewilling to do that.
No, obviously there are somesituations that are, just, you
know, very toxic and tragic andcompletely abusive and not
acceptable.
(44:40):
Right right, but most I wouldsay most people are not in that
category.
Anyway, well, thank you foryour time, thank you for your
details and I'll make sure Ilink them to the show notes
below, and I hope you have afantastic day.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Same to you have a great day.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of
Confident Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about thesober freedom inner circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
(45:19):
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.
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