The Secret Life of a Sober Professional: Journey to Authenticity

What happens when we finally stop hiding and embrace our authentic selves? For Margie Schaller, living with secret sobriety for 18.5 years came at a significant personal cost—until one transformative moment changed everything.

Margie's journey begins with childhood curiosity about her mother's ever-present glass of scotch and water, evolves through becoming the "chug champ" of her sorority, and reaches a critical turning point after a horrific car accident. Despite having a rod surgically placed in her leg following the crash, Margie returned to drinking as soon as physically possible. It wasn't until a family intervention months later that her recovery journey truly began.

But getting sober was just the first step. As a professional whose job literally required "wining and dining" potential speakers, Margie found herself white-knuckling through business dinners, passing the wine list to others, and crafting excuses for why she wasn't drinking. When she briefly mentioned her sobriety during a professional talk ten years into her recovery, influential colleagues warned her not to "talk about that sober thing"—reinforcing her decision to keep this essential part of herself hidden.

The conversation takes a powerful turn when Margie describes the moment everything changed. At a women's conference 18.5 years into her sobriety, when asked how many didn't drink "for whatever reason," Margie slowly raised her hand alongside 15% of the room—women she knew professionally but had never realized shared this experience. This revelation led to co-founding Sober Life Rocks, creating spaces for professionals navigating alcohol-centric business environments while sober.

Shelby and Margie explore the evolution of recovery culture, the blessings of discomfort as a reminder of who we truly are, and the profound transformation that comes with authenticity. As Margie beautifully describes the sensation of finally living her truth: "I literally feel like my cells have rearranged themselves."

Ready to explore what authentic living might mean for you? Connect with Margie through the Sober Life Rocks community on LinkedIn or learn about the upcoming Amplify Sober Voices conference for those leading the sober movement.

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Oh, and by the way, if you didn’t know, my remote Neurofeedback Therapy program is up and running. Learn more here!

If you aren't part of the Confident Sober Women Facebook group, it's a great place to be. There are over a thousand other sober women there building lives they don't want to escape from. Come on over and join us.

And if you haven't read my memoir, grab a copy today and maybe a second one for a friend. There is so much hope in recovery, and I shared my story so raw and vulnerable so that others would know they aren't alone and that there is a way to live well, manage relationships, parent your kids, and have a healthy body, all while staying sober. Grab a copy of Recovering in Recovery: The Life-Changing Joy of Sobriety wherever books are sold.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, sober ladies.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women Podcast.
I am so excited to share myconversation with Margie
Schaller.
She's best known as a speakercoach and she's also the proud
co-host of a podcast calledSober Life Rocks, and I had the
pleasure of sharing time withher on that show as well, so you

(00:23):
will probably be hearing mesoon if you go check it out.
She and I have a dynamicconversation about a lot of
things.
She's been in recovery forquite some time and her views
are a mix of kind of old schoollike mine and also some modern
day, and we really talk a lotabout the gift and the blessings

(00:44):
that we have to make choicestoday in sobriety and the power
that comes with that.
But we really also get intonavigating the professional
lives that we might be engagedin after we become sober,
because she chose to keep hersobriety secret and did not tell
anybody in her professionalworld, and so this became a

(01:06):
challenge for her.
She really shares intimatelyabout that and we kind of have
some deep dives into what thatlooks like for some of us how to
navigate that, some realpractical tips, tools and
strategies for things that youguys can implement, if that is
your story as well.
But more than anything, wereally just share the message of
hope and what it means to bewomen in sobriety, what it means

(01:29):
to make the choice today tochoose ourselves, to choose
health, to choose honesty andintegrity and lives worth living
today, and that's a realblessing that I love to talk
about.
So grab your big glass of wateror your favorite mocktail and
enjoy this conversation withMargie Schaller.

(01:58):
Hello and welcome to theConfident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection.

(02:19):
So we know we are no longeralone.
In this podcast, you will hearreal life talk about building
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk.
Hey, it's me, shelby.
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(02:39):
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(03:03):
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(03:25):
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(03:47):
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change.
Okay, well, hey there, margie,thank you so much for being here
today and, as a part of theConfidence Over Women podcast,

(04:09):
I'm so glad that you're here, soI'm going to turn the mic over
to you and let you share alittle bit more about your story
, and then we're going to chat.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Shelby, thank you so much for having me on.
This is just a greatopportunity, because the bottom
line that I'll be getting to isI am now 20 years sober, but
other than in my recoverycommunity, I was secretly sober
for 18 and a half of those years.
So just a little bit about mystory.

(04:37):
I was raised by an alcoholicmother.
I didn't know that term backthen, of course, but I remember
she always had this endlessglass of scotch and water in the
refrigerator door where thecondiments are, and I would see
her on a daily basis, hourlybasis, go in, open the door,
take a sip, put it back in, andat eight years old I was really

(05:02):
curious about that.
And so I remember lookingaround, opening the door, taking
the sip, feeling the burn, andat eight I hated the taste, but
that burn was intriguing, and soshe and I, you know, sipped
together on that endless glassof scotch and water over time.

(05:24):
But I really didn't drink foreffect back then.
It was just curiosity.
But it wasn't really middleschool, high school, when things
began to get a little bit moreintentional, you know, stealing
the beers and stealing thebottle of vodka, and making
screwdrivers with my girlfriendsyou know all the things I was

(05:47):
super proud of myself in collegewhen I was the chug champ of my
sorority.
And by my 20s I got married andmy husband's best friend was a
wine distributor and I hadn'treally been exposed to wine that
much at that point.

(06:07):
And so he would bring over likesix bottles and put these brown
wrappers around the outside andhe would tell me what to cook
that would go well, pair well,with these wines, and we'd have
wine tastings and the three ofus would taste the six bottles
of wine and one of the thingsthat he taught us was that wine
didn't age well in the bottle.

(06:28):
So of course, you know, we hadto finish those off.
But it became this art form, itbecame this experience, and
that really is kind of wherethings turned for me, because it
wasn't anymore about, like youknow, the youthful drinking.
Now.
It was sophisticated and fastforward.

(06:52):
I got divorced when my kidswere still toddlers, but I love
to cook and I love this art form, and so there I was cooking
steak and mushroom sauce for mytoddlers so that I could justify
my bottle of Cabernet right.
And it wasn't so much aboutlike drinking with other people,
it was about that art form athome.

(07:13):
I remember my parents being alittle bit concerned but I
didn't pay attention, payattention and over time the
bottle of wine became a bottleand a half.
And I remember driving homeknowing that my kids didn't have
any milk for cereal and notwanting to stop because I was

(07:36):
tired, but then realizing Ididn't have any wine at home and
stopping because of the wineand not because of the kids milk
.
And I remember when I would goto the grocery store and you
remember those six packs thatyou could, if you put six
bottles of wine in it, you got10% off.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
And thinking to myself well, I need to get two
of those to get through the week.
And there was a time when Ijust knew that there wasn't
going to be an option, that thatwas just my life, that I just
had to do that.
And you know, I had a singlemom, really difficult
relationship, with my ex-husbandworking full-time to support me
and my kids by myself.
And I remember thinking, if youhad my life, you would drink

(08:17):
too.
And so I had this wholejustification system.
Justification system.
And in the fall of 2004, I wentback east for my high school

(08:38):
reunion and I hadn't kept upwith anybody and I suffer from
really bad social anxiety as itis.
And so I remember thinking tomyself you know, I don't want to
get drunk at this event.
I didn't like being drunk infront of other people, so I'm
just going to limit myself totwo glasses of wine or whatever.
When I'm there and I walk inand I'm freaked out because it's
just overwhelming and I don'tknow anybody.

(09:00):
And you know that awkward, likeyou're looking at the name
badges on somebody's chest andtrying to associate that with
the person's face, I mean, itwas just horrible.
And so I downed that firstglass of wine, just, but it
wasn't enough, and so I downedthe second glass of wine, and I
don't remember how many glassesI had after that.
I do know that I shut down thebar with a couple of my

(09:24):
classmates at the end of thenight.
And I do know that I shut downthe bar with a couple of my
classmates at the end of thenight, and I do know that a
bunch of people were assessingwho was in good enough shape to
drive home or not.
And of course I was fine andyou weren't.
So I offered to drive one of myclassmates home.
Now, this was in Maryland, andat the time there was sort of
the tail end of a hurricaneblowing through and there was

(09:44):
even reports of tornadoes in thearea, which is highly unusual
for that area.
And so, driving through thisdriving rain, with the wind, and
I get this guy home, drop himoff, and now I'm headed back to
my parents' house, and the roadswere so slick that I was
hydroplaning a couple of times,but I know how to handle that.

(10:06):
But the next thing I know, Iopen my eyes and my car is
wrapped around either a tree ora telephone pole I don't know
which one.
And I remember reaching aroundfor my phone and I couldn't find
it anywhere and the windshieldis shattered.
Remember reaching around for myphone and I couldn't find it
anywhere.
And so, and the windshield isshattered, I can just see like

(10:27):
the crackly glass and the rain.
And so I start to honk my hornto get attention from somebody
anybody, it's, you know, two orthree in the morning and I'm
honking my horn and when I tellthe story and if you're
listening, I was not honkingforward, I was honking from the
side because the whole steeringcolumn had turned.

(10:48):
And I'm honking and honking andthrough the shattered glass I
see four people walking up withthese horrified expressions and
one of them called 911 andsomebody else was able to get
into the passenger seat and sitwith me and keep me alert and
talking until the paramedicscame and evidently it took them

(11:08):
close to an hour to cut me outof that car.
I had a compound fracture in myleg where the steering column
broke it and a broken collarbone, and they took me to the
hospital and rushed me intosurgery and I now have a rod in
my leg.
And they took me to thehospital and rushed me into
surgery and I now have a rod inmy leg.

(11:39):
And as I recovered in thehospital, and then for a week or
two at my parents' housebecause they couldn't let me fly
home by myself my parents weretrying to talk to me about the
effect of my drinking and I saidit was a hurricane, I
hydroplaned.
I was in such denial because Ithought that I was fine.
And so I get home finally, andI'm walking around my apartment

(12:05):
with a walker, trying to takecare of myself and my kids, and
I hadn't had anything to drinkduring the time I was at my
parents' house.
So it had been probably threeweeks and I couldn't grocery
shop on my own.
People were bringing me foodand of course, I wasn't going to
ask for wine after all of that,and so I probably had a good
six weeks or so until I coulddrive.
And when I finally got to thegrocery store, the first thing
that I did was stock up on wine.
And when I finally got to thegrocery store, the first thing I

(12:28):
did was stock up on wine.
So, fast forward to January of2005, and I got a call from my
brother who invited me to my ownintervention, and he said it's
going to be an alcohol educationweekend for the whole family,

(12:49):
meaning himself and my parentsand me.
And I said, yeah, I know whatthis is.
This is a gang up on Margieevent.
And he said, well, no, it's not.
I've talked to the guy and it'snot that at all.
And if it is, I will leavefirst and I'll hold the door for
you.
And I said to him are youwilling to put our relationship

(13:09):
on the line for this?
And he said yes, I am.
And so I got on a plane and Iflew back to Maryland and I
attended my own intervention andthat's exactly what it was.
The guy talked for the firsthalf of a day about the disease
of alcoholism, about the family.

(13:30):
We did a family tree mapping,we talked about the effects of
the family, what happens.
And I remember at one point heasked me, he said or he talked
to my dad?
And he said are you a coffeedrinker?
And my dad said well, yeah.
And he said every morning.
And he said well, yeah.

(13:50):
And he said have you ever goneto reach up into the shelf and
pull down the can of coffee andshake it?
And it's empty and that feelingof anxiety.
And my dad's like, oh yeah, andhe said that's a fraction of

(14:11):
what it's like for somebody whois addicted to alcohol.
And I remember my dad goingwhat?
And looking at me and I lookedback at him and I said you don't
know that Like for the personwho isn't addicted to alcohol,
they don't understand.
Well, at the end of thisweekend I reluctantly agreed to

(14:36):
go to a 30-day inpatienttreatment center and my parents
God bless them flew out to SanDiego where I was living at the
time, and they learned how to beme and they were there and took
my kids to school and all thethings while I went to treatment
.
But I'll tell you, shelby, itwas really really hard for me at
first because I was lookingaround at all these people who
had lost everything, who hadlost their jobs and lost their

(15:00):
homes and lost their marriagesand lost their kids.
I hadn't lost any of that.
And it was probably about twoand a half weeks in when an
outside group from AA came in togive sort of a panel talk and
one of them started describingmy life and he talked about the
fact that he still had the houseand he still had the dog and he
still had the wife and he stillhad the job and he still had

(15:22):
the boat.
And I was like I don't have aboat.
But he said the one thing isthat I lost myself.
And that's the moment when ithit me that I didn't have any
idea who I was.
So I doubled down and I stayedanother 30 days at a residential
program where I learned how togo to the grocery store and not

(15:45):
have the wine, leap into my cartand take a bath without the
wine and cook without the wineand do all the things.
And I threw myself headlongwhen I got home into AA and I
did all the things.
I got the sponsor and I workedthe program and I craved and
craved and craved and I triedand tried and tried to get
through that craving and it wasabout six months but I stayed

(16:08):
sober the entire time.
But this began an interestingtime for me, which was that I
was petrified that anybodyoutside of AA was going to know
that I was sober.
Aa was going to know that I wassober.

(16:29):
We had the Alano Club where Iused to go on a very busy street
, kind of in my neighborhood,and I remember parking out back
and waiting until the lightturned green so cars were going
faster to run around to thefront of the building and go
inside in case anybody saw me.
And I lived.
My job was a very professionaljob and I was in charge of
recruiting and maintainingspeakers for a medical device

(16:51):
company, and so I had to travela lot and my job was literally
to go out and wine and dinethese potential speakers.
And so I remember asking peoplein my AA community at the time
like how do I navigate that?
What do I do?
And where I was, most of themwere more blue collar style

(17:11):
workers and they didn't havethat sort of lifestyle in their
work life, and so their bestadvice was you know, if you get
into a situation that'suncomfortable, just leave early.
Well, I had the corporatecredit card, leave early.
Well, I had the corporatecredit card.
I was the one hosting theseevents, so leaving early was not
an option.
I didn't know what else to do,and so I literally just sat and

(17:32):
just white knuckled myselfthrough those types of events.
I mean, I remember one day Iwas on an airplane for the first
time, and airplanes were greatplaces to drink, and I was in
the window seat and I could seethe cart coming down the aisle
and here it comes, and everystep that it comes closer I'm

(17:55):
just praying like please don'tlet me drink, please don't let
me drink.
And I remember saying to myselfif the person next to me drinks
, it's going to be over, becausethat aroma is going to be too
much.
And so the person next to meorders an apple juice and I was
like, oh, I can do it, I can getthrough this flight, I can make

(18:17):
it the first time that I was atone of these dinners that I had
to host.
So the waiter comes over andthey hand the wine book to me,
and to me that wine bookrepresented my best friends,
right.
And so I hold this wine book inmy hand and I look up and I say

(18:37):
, does anybody else know wines?
I'm not really that familiarwith these and I just had to
pass it over to let somebodyelse handle it because I
couldn't handle it.
Over the years those things gota little bit more.
I got accustomed to them better.
But you know, back 20 years agothere was still a lot of stigma

(18:59):
.
There's still a lot of judgmentabout people who were in
recovery.
So I would get questions likeoh, why aren't you drinking
tonight?
Well, come on, just have onehere.
This wine is really good.
Do you just want to have ataste, like all of the things
that you can imagine?
You know alcohol is the onething, the one drug that if you

(19:24):
don't partake in, you'requestioned, and so that was
really awkward for me and reallyreally trying, but I didn't
drink through any of it.
Fast forward to about 10 yearsinto my sobriety.

(19:44):
I had started my new business.
I'm a speaker coach and I hadthe opportunity to speak at a
group of speakers.
It was a conference forspeakers and it was like this
was my big moment.
I had just launched my businesssix months before and I was
going to be in front of all ofthese potential clients before.

(20:05):
And I was going to be in frontof all of these potential
clients, and one of the thingsthat I coach people on is that
when you first start out a talk,it's good to let people know
kind of who you are, what yourwhy is, what your purpose is, as
a way for them to connect withyou.
And so in a, you know I told thefive minute version.
I'll tell a 30 second versionhere, but I basically said.

(20:26):
You know, I was raised in analcoholic household.
There was plenty of chaos, Ididn't learn good life skills
and I vowed I would never belike my mom, and by my 20s I was
just like my mom, and I'm surethat there was people along the

(20:46):
way there who could have helpedme, but I didn't see them.
And so in that talk I said so10 years ago, when I finally did
get sober, these amazingmentors showed up in my life,
people who helped me learn howto put on makeup, how to dress
professionally, how to be a goodmother, how to be a good wife,

(21:07):
how to be a good employee oremployer, like all the life
skills that my mom wasn't ableto pass along to me.
And I will never be able torepay those women, but the best
that I can do is pay it forward,and that is why I'm here today,
because I want to help youbecome the best version of

(21:28):
yourself.
Well, in that moment, theaudience is leaning forward.
They want to hear what I haveto say next, and the rest of my
talk went fantastically, and atthe end people were rushing up
to me, literally waving theirbusiness cards at me, saying can
I please get in touch with you.
I want to hire you.
It was my dream come true, andI had some people who who came

(21:53):
up and said thank you forsharing that.
Like I, I have a story likethat too.
However, I had two separatepeople who were very influential
in that group come up to me atdifferent times and say you know
, great job, margie, appreciatethat story, but you might not
want to talk about that soberthing, and that was my worst

(22:18):
fear, and so from that point on,I'd never talked about it again
.
I never shared with anotherperson in my professional life
that I was sober.
No, that's not true.
I had like three trusted friendsand they became kind of my

(22:40):
sober wingmen, which is one ofthe phrases that we use at Sober
Life Rocks People who, when Iwas at a conference with them
and they knew that I had thissocial anxiety and they knew
that I wasn't drinking we wouldgo up to the bar and they would
order their drink and I wouldsay you know, can I have a club
soda and lime right the go-to.
And my friend would turn to thebartender and say come on,

(23:04):
don't you have anything betterthan that?
For that doesn't have alcoholin it Like they would advocate
for me, which was really sweet.
One of the other people that Iknew was my now co-founder of
Sober Life Rocks.
She had gotten sober on TikTokduring the pandemic, just sort

(23:27):
of out loud, and I was like so Ididn't know what to do with
that.
It was uncomfortable for me tosee somebody just out loud
talking about their sobriety inthis public way, but I was like
great for her.
And so I saw her at aconference.
We weren't friends but we werefriendly colleagues and because

(23:47):
she had done that, I came up, Iwent up to her and I said you
know, congratulations on gettingsober.
I've been sober for X number ofyears.
She was like wow, I had no idea.
I'm like I know nobody does, Idon't talk about it.
So fast forward now to a yearand a half ago and she and I
were at a women's conference forentrepreneurs.

(24:09):
There was about 125 women thereand she was on a panel called
Mind Body Health and she wastalking about the effect of her
sober journey on herentrepreneurial life and sort of
spontaneously, during one ofthe questions she turned to the
group and she's like "'I'm justcurious how many people here in
this room "'don't drink forwhatever reason'.

(24:32):
Now, in that moment, I had thisbig choice to make.
So I start slowly raising myhand and looking around the room
through my side eye and Shelbylike 15% of the room was raising
their hand too, and I knew mostof these women and I had no

(24:54):
idea and they had no idea aboutme.
And I look up at Laura andLaura looks at me.
We're both stunned at what justhappened.
And we went to lunch afterwardsand I said you know, this has
got to stop, and it has to stopwith me first.
I can no longer put baby in thecorner.

(25:18):
And so that's when Sober LifeRocks was born, because we felt
like there's lots of places thatsupport people getting sober
which is amazing but we couldn'tfind anywhere that really
supports people in theirprofessional lives.
Navigating, navigating the hey,let's meet for happy hour.

(25:38):
Hey, let's meet at the bar.
Hey, the airport bar.
Hey, the happy hour.
Hey, let's meet at the bar.
Hey, the airport bar.
Hey, the airplane drinking.
Hey, the networking things,like all the things that are
centered around alcohol.
It's the currency of connectionin our professional lives.
So, for people who don't drink,what is there for them?
What is there for them and Igot to tell you, since I now

(26:04):
live my sobriety out loud in allparts of my life, I literally
feel like my cells haverearranged themselves.
I feel like I just I came intomy body in a whole new way and

(26:27):
the authenticity and the joy andthe connection to others has
just been unexpectedly amazing.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing all of that
.
I loved all of those storiesand as you were talking, there
was parts of my brain that werejust like firing off in all
directions in so many ways thatI know that we could probably
have like two full episodes oftalking, cause that's how these
conversations go, especiallywith um, I think women that are
have been sober for a long time.

(26:56):
I got sober in 2002.
So just a little ahead of you,and actually I was questioning
that, like when you said 20years, I was like, well, how?
Then you said 2004.
I was like, oh okay, I alreadyhad one kid by then.
So like I think it was after, Iforgot anyway, when you've been,
when you've gotten in statesober for a long time, I think

(27:16):
you know there's so much thatgoes on in that lifetime.
You know, like I always I wrotea memoir during the pandemic as
well and just kind of told myreal raw story, which is very
vulnerable and kind of new atlike you, I think at that time
when we got sober at least forme in 2002, there was there was
like AA and treatment, that's it, and I did both of those things

(27:37):
.
That's it was taught to do.
We didn't have Quitlet.
There wasn't even Facebook.
I don't think yet.
I mean there wasn't no onlinegroups or any of this, and so,
which was fine, so like that'swhat worked for me, that's what
I did, but when so I wrote, thatthing for me was extremely
vulnerable, because I felt likeI was kind of raised up in this
anonymous environment.
Right, we were taught to beanonymous and and I was very

(27:59):
loyal to that, like I took itvery seriously.
Now, everybody in my life knew,you know, like most people
already knew, right, um and um,I didn't wasn't ashamed to tell
people necessarily, but I didn'thave, I was, I didn't have like
a huge networker businesscommunity at that time.
So, um, my life was a littlebit smaller I guess, and so I

(28:22):
wasn't publicly displaying thatout, so doing things like
writing that.
But what my point of bringingthat up was, when I wrote that
memoir I said, if you, and everylifetime there is, there are
moments where there's a beforeand an after.
And for me that was July 1st2002, right.
So there was my before July 1st2002.
And then there was my after,this whole lifetime, decades of

(28:48):
sobriety, that where I had torelearn, like you mentioned, how
to like feed myself properlyand like, do skincare.
And then I had three, I gotsober and six months later I had
a baby and then like, or I waspregnant and then I had three
kids in four years and like, howdo I parent?
And like all that stuff.
And so I do feel like it's liketwo lifetimes, but we've

(29:08):
learned so much, so muchemotional sob each other, which
was so cool.
I love the story that you toldabout your dad with the coffee.
I've never heard it put thatway, but I think it's so
relevant.
You know, I think most people Ican relate to that story with

(29:31):
the coffee.
Most people can relate to thatand even though we're kind of
making light of it, it'sobviously not the same thing.
It is similar to a person, butyou're right, like they don't
have any frame of reference towhat it's like to have that
feeling that we know and that'swhy it's easy for people to say,

(29:53):
well, why can't you just stop?
yeah, you can't.
You just look at those kids andjust stop.
You know, because, because youcan't, and so I really liked
that.
You shared that and I knowthere'll be tons of people who
can relate to that.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
And the sensation of craving was was an interesting
one for me, both when I wasdrinking but when I quit as well
.
Literally, I only drank afterwork.
I didn't.
I never drank during the dayWell, on the weekends, but I
mean never during the week andso right around the time that I
was driving home was my highdanger time.

(30:28):
I could visualize the beads ofsweat coming down the side of a
glass.
I could visualize like thesmell and the taste, and it was
so powerful, and so I look atthat as a gift today, because
many people who quit drinkinghave some horrendous thing that
they hit bottom in some way oranother.

(30:49):
You would think that my caraccident was that, but it wasn't
, and so, because I still had mylife intact, I look now at

(31:13):
those months of craving as thething that drove me to work
really hard at putting in placeall of the aspects I needed to
get and stay sober, and that Inever want to go through that
again, and that was enough forme to really really take all of
this seriously.
I know that, but another pieceof my story which I really
didn't get into and I think it'sreally important for anybody
who has gotten through thegetting sober part and now was
living life part.
You know, I was really reallyinvolved in the AA for the first

(31:36):
about 10 years and I didn'tneed it.
But I loved it and I loved theidea that I was there for other
people who were coming in.
But I saw people around me withthe freedom and the joy,
emotionally, that I wasn'tfeeling.
I still was feeling as though Ijust had a little bit of this

(32:01):
wet blanket on me and I couldn't.
I couldn't figure out why I haddone all the things.
And I remember talking to mysponsor one time and she
suggested that maybe I mightlook into Al-Anon.
So I thought, well, that's notreally doesn't sound like it's
going to resonate, but I'mwilling to look into it because

(32:21):
you do what your sponsorsuggests.
And so I went down to thisrecovery bookstore and I found
the shelf area where all theAl-Anon material was and she had
said you know, just open up acouple of books and read a
couple of pages and see ifanything hits.
And I did and it didn't.
But right next to that wasanother book talking about adult

(32:42):
children of alcoholics.
And so I picked up that bookand I opened it up and there I
am in this recovery bookstoreweeping, absolutely just.
It hit me right in my heartbecause all of the pain that I
was still carrying with me, 10years sober, was described in

(33:06):
these pages that I justmagically opened up in this
random book.
And so from that point I foundedACA Meeting and I walked in
just like you walk into anyother brand new meeting, just
going I'm not sure what this isand I'm not sure if this is for
me and immediately everythingthat was being said resonated
with me down to my core.

(33:29):
And so for the past 10 yearsI've been deeply involved and
regularly working on things fromadult children of alcoholics
and the title actually isthey've adopted it to be and
other dysfunctional families,because the things that ACA
talks about is the tapes thatwere implanted into our heads at

(33:54):
very young ages that no longerwork for us, longer work for us.
And so in that book itdescribes, if you come from a
very strict religious backgroundor a military background, or
maybe adopted or fostered orabusive or sexually abusive,
that the program works for allof those types of upbringings,

(34:17):
because the commonality is wewere not allowed to be children,
we were not safe to express ouremotional needs.
We were told we should besomething that we maybe weren't
naturally, and that's you talkedabout the emotional healing.

(34:39):
That, for me, is where theemotional healing journey has
taken me, and it's beenlife-changing.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
I think there are so many parts to that too.
Like, again, I think, if youlive long enough and you stay
sober long enough, in that, um,we have all of these different
ages and stages, right.
So I'm going to be 50 in acouple months.
I have these three kids.
They're young adults, two arein college, one is a junior.
So I'm like in this, like sortof next phase of life too.

(35:10):
I've stayed married this wholetime and that's been a whole
thing, you know and so.
But now we're like in this nextphase, right, and so I think,
for me I just related tosomething else you said too,
about the um, the cravings, andyou know, I know I do want us to
talk about living and I thinkthat's really important.
But part of me, I think, I thinkmy higher power that I choose

(35:31):
to call God, that I do have avery, very strong relationship
with and thank God, um, knewthat what exactly what I needed,
because I wasn't the personthat came in here to the rooms
and was like oh, by the way,like I think I have a problem, I
think I need some help, like Iwas set there via jail, right,
and so like and so, like thatwasn't, didn't ever occur to me

(35:53):
that that like that was a thing,and so I was too scared not to
follow the directions.
But I certainly didn't thinklike drinking had anything to do
with it, and so I took like 18months of sitting in AA meetings
like regularly every day tolike even really begin to think
like, oh well, maybe I actuallydo belong here.
So it was a sometimes quickly,sometimes slowly phenomenon for

(36:14):
me that just took a really longtime of stubbornness.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right, just painful.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
I'm just so.
I guess my point.
My point is is I'm so gratefuland I made me think about even
kind of the topic we were goingto talk about today, that like
that, those uncomfortablefeelings that come up sometimes
when you're out socially oryou're with your family or you
smell the things.
I'm so grateful for that.
And I don't know that otherpeople in the in the modern
sobriety era maybe they do.

(36:40):
I don't get that feeling fromsome people that they appreciate
that you know that theyunderstand what a blessing it is
to be able to have discomfortaround that Right, because to me
and not maybe it's just the wayI was taught.
I was like I was taught likethat's how we know, like cause,
I didn't want, I didn't.
I mean maybe I did, but now Icertainly don't want to live my

(37:00):
life questioning whether or notI'm an alcoholic and I spent a
long time doing that and now Idon't really give a darn.
Like I mean I'm like great, Igave up something and got
everything Right and so, butlike I'm so grateful for those
moments, because there have beentimes in 20 years sobriety
where I was like you know, likewell, maybe, like I mean people

(37:22):
do go back.
You know there are now modernpeople that are like teaching
people how to drink.
Response I know one of them andactually I get like a visceral
response every time I see herstuff online because I like her.
But I'm just like wow you'rereally hurting people anyway.
So I went to California to do aTed talk a couple years ago two
years ago now, I guess I was inLA.

(37:43):
It was this whole big thing Ilive in, you know, northern
Maryland.
It's very different and I wasextremely excited about the
situation.
I was really nervous.
It was the hardest thing I'veever done in my whole life,
probably, or one of them.
And I'm staying in this fancyhotel in LA.
I was being paid for it,staying in this fancy hotel in
LA.
I was being paid for it.
Like that's never happened to me, because I've never had like a
I'm a therapist, you know, I'venever had a corporate job, I
don't, you know.

(38:04):
Um, that's the kind of stuff myhusband gets to do.
And they, you know it was, Iwas.
Everything was paid for.
So I said, okay, I'm going togo down into this bar or
whatever and get a salad orsomething to eat.
And you know, the non-alcoholicbeverage adult beverage scene
has exploded all over the place,right, and so I don't drink

(38:24):
that because I just never have.
I don't find it necessary, Idon't want anything that tastes
like alcohol.
It's not my thing, I don't, andI don't want to pay for that,
because I'd rather eat food, andso I was like you know what I'm
in LA Like?
So, on the menu were thesefancy brands that I had heard
about because I've interviewedsome of them.
The menu were these fancy brandsthat I had heard about because
I've interviewed some of them,and I knew and I was like you
know, you know I'm out here,like I should just try that,

(38:45):
like it's on the menu you know,I was like, okay, cool, so I
ordered this mocktail and sheset that thing in front of me in
a glass, a bourbon glass, witha giant ice cube in it with the
brown liquid and some kind ofgarnish.
And I this was two years ago,okay I was like, wow, okay, like

(39:07):
that looks like a real, like Iit happened like the thing
happened right where I was, likeI clicked over into like wow,
that is like really nice, andlike I started doing this little
thing and I drank it and I waslike this is actually not even
that good, but of course I'mgoing to drink it all because I
paid for it.
Right, be like there might belike what, if there is like a
little bit of this?
I mean I don't know.

(39:27):
I mean I had this whole thingand I'm like I have been sober
for a long time and that wassuch a blessing.
The next day I actually went tothe amy they had was at the
National Conference for Wellness, national Council for Wellness,
I think that's what it's called.
It was this big conference,natcon, and they have it's all a

(39:49):
lot of substance abuse andmental health, first aiders and
stuff, and so they had AAmeetings at 7am or something
every morning and so I just likeyou know what, I'm gonna pop in
there and I don't even reallyknow anymore.
I was like I'm gonna go inthere because I feel like maybe,
like maybe somebody would getsomething out of that story.
So I told that story for myself, frankly, but also for anybody
else who wanted to hear it.

(40:09):
But it, but it was so importantto me as a reminder about who I
am and what I am you know, andI feel like into like, and I
probably will get like crap forsaying this from some people.
but when you're talking topeople who I am and what I am,
you know, and I feel like intolike, and I probably will get
like crap for saying this fromsome people.
But when you're talking topeople who I know were very
similar, like in today, like inthe some of the stuff that's
happening today, with like sobercurious and like gray area

(40:32):
drinking and all those things,like I don't really believe that
, like I don't think there issuch a thing as gray area
drinking, and so I think, uh,you know, alcohol is a poison.
I don't think there is such athing as gray area drinking and
so I think, you know, alcohol isa poison.
We don't need it.
So I'm just grateful, gratefulfor those moments when I'm
uncomfortable, and I think weshould really all embrace that,
even though it is veryuncomfortable, but anxiety is

(40:54):
not going to kill you, at leastnot right away, like in that
moment while you're standingthere at a business event.
You're just going to have anuncomfortable feeling, but I'm
like that's a tool, you know,that's like a, that's a signal
to you to say, yep, you'reexactly where you think.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
you're doing exactly the things that you need to be
doing right yeah, yeah, yeah,and I will say that, um, I don't
regret not sharing my sobrietyin my professional life 20 years
ago, like I think that wouldhave been damaging to me.
I think 20 years ago we wereliving in an era where that was

(41:31):
a thing.
I will say that today we livein an era where some people
still have that kind of judgment.
That women's meeting that Imentioned, where Laura said how
many people don't drink forwhatever reason, and 15% of the
room raised their hands.
We learned that at a dinnerlater that night.
There was a group of I don'tknow 10 women at a dinner and

(41:54):
one of the women said can youbelieve that people would raise
their hand and admit to the messin their lives?
So it's still out there.
However, I am so thankful to thecelebrities that were willing
to be open and honest over thepast five, ten years and I think

(42:20):
that they really broke the icefor us.
I wish that 10 years ago, whenI gave that talk, that those two
people didn't influence mydecision.
I wish that 10 years ago I hadmade the decision that that was
enough and I was healed enoughto be able to withstand that.
But I wasn't.
But today.
I think that the fact that I'mwilling to speak out loud about

(42:42):
it might just help somebody else.
And my understanding of grayarea drinking is this new
medical term about the substanceuse disorder or alcohol use
disorder, that it's a spectrumand that everybody who drinks at

(43:03):
all is somewhere on thespectrum.
Right and old school AA was thatyou had to hit rock bottom to
get sober.
And my hope is that, becausewe're now having these
conversations, because there isso much quitlet, because there's
so much podcasting andFacebooking and LinkedIn and all

(43:24):
the conversations that aregoing on, that people can
question their relationship withalcohol sooner and, if they
feel like it's not serving them,they can stop drinking without
having to hit some kind ofhorrendous bottom, without
having to wrap their tree arounda telephone pole and think it's

(43:46):
because it was the rain, orwithout having to end up in jail
or whatever the things are thatwe all did.
I feel like nobody should talkabout their experience until
they're ready.
Nobody should talk about theirexperience until they're ready.
But for those of us that areready, the more that we can, the
more that we give permission toothers to take a look at it and

(44:08):
not have it be a shame-baseddecision, but rather an
intentional quality-of-lifedecision.
I mean, can you imagine?

Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, I totally agree with that and I think that we
are in that space now.
That's why I call it the modernday recovery year, and it's
fair.
It was a very bizarre shift andmaybe you can relate to that,
Like I mean, where we came from,where I came from, and on my
little community.
I mean, I went to all of me, Idid the things.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
I did all my therapy.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
I, we did marriage.
I mean I mean we did it all Allthe things.
I had to kind of go back andredo it because before you're
sober I had like a sober bottomwhere I was like what the hell?
Because I was doing some.
I mean I didn't forget about myrecovery, but like it was a lot
.
It was just a lot but like, butyou know we were I was growing
up at that time what?
was I probably like 16 really,while I got sober instead of 27.

(44:57):
Like, like, like I was growingup to becoming trying to figure
out how to be an adult and alsoa mom and a wife and like all
the things.
And so, yeah, it takes the timeit takes.
I mean, at 10 years sober, Istood at my anniversary and I
was pissed off.
I stood at that podium and waslike this is ridiculous.
I think I should be further.
I can't believe I still have todo this stuff.
I mean, I said that I was likeso mad that it was still this

(45:27):
much work, still so hard.
You know, and I was, you know,I look back on that think like,
wow, you're really like that wasreally self-centered, but like
I was just still rowing, youknow, it was still so much
self-centeredness.
But it takes all the, all thethings that it takes for us to
get to these places where now weare here but we get to share
our stories because we want toand you're right, not Not
everybody wants to do that andyou don't have to.
it's the beautiful thing aboutlife and some people like to do

(45:48):
it, you know, through art, youknow.
Or some people like to do it,you know, in their own journals,
and then they just they justshow up in life, maybe, and
they're just kind or generous orthey're really good at service,
but they don't talk about thatpiece, you know.
But but they could if theywanted to and they don't have to
be so public.
I mean, for me, I was atherapist, a licensed clinical

(46:10):
therapist.
I've had my own practice andthen about six or seven years
ago, I decided I wanted to stepout and start creating like a
coaching product and like startto really kind of just because I
wanted to work specificallywith sober women.
So I started this podcast, Ibuilt a course, I started
coaching and I worked withmultiple mentors along the way
on that.
Now, I'm not a business person,I'm a therapist.
So none of that.

(46:31):
I had to learn all of it.
I had to learn everything aboutmarketing and lead.
I didn't know any of that, andso I was trying to be an anxiety
coach or health coach orsomebody who helps people with
their anxiety, because that's myspecialty right.
I help people with anxiety andtrauma, and so I do my practice.
But what I really wanted to dowas work with women in recovery.

(46:53):
But I couldn't figure, Icouldn't figure out how to say
that and I couldn't do it.
Really, I wasn't, I couldn't.
I was so bound and I'm totallynot against the program.
I love it so, so much and Idon't.
I don't go.
I was so bound and I'm totallynot against the program.
I love it so, so much and Idon't.
I don't go to a lot of meetingsanymore.
I would.
I don't have any problem withit, but I was bound by that
anonymity piece because I wasloyal to it in a good way.
I loved it and I didn't want todisrespect it, so I was like how

(47:16):
am I supposed to show up and beout you?
know, and finally, you know, andfinally this one coach I was
working and I was, and I wasstruggling and I wasn't working
and I was like this doesn't feelright and like just was just
really weird.
And he finally said to me whydon't you just be who you are
like?
Why don't you just be, do whatyou are?
What a crazy idea.

(47:36):
I can't do that, I can't dothat.
And he was like like you don'thave to say anything negative.
Same with my Ted talk.
Right, I was working with aspeaker coach who was assigned.
That was a blessing that I gotfrom being part of that
conference.
It was a very generous blessing.
I love that part because hehelped too, cause I was.
I was so emotional writing thattalk and I said I can't, I

(47:59):
can't say anything negativeabout it.
I just don't want anybody toever think I'm saying there's
something wrong with thatprogram or that it's not enough.
It is, but then there's allthese layers.
And he was so gracious and waslike you don't have to do that,
you can just say also, we needthese things, you know.

(48:20):
And so it really worked waybetter, because then I showed up
as myself, I was speaking frommy heart and my story and
relating to women in the waysthat I could connect with, and
it was so much better, you know.
But I think it just takes thetime it takes, and if I had
tried to do that 10 years ago inthat space right, I don't know
that it would have shown up asas healthy, you know.

(48:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get to bethis today.
Like we and we get to be likeand like the example that you
used about those women.
It hurts my heart when I hearpeople when you say that,
because in my mind I don't thinkthere is a stigma anymore.
But I know I live in like a lala land with that Cause.
I just think everybody is it'sfine, like, like nobody cares.
But clearly in some circles Ithink they do, but they only

(49:04):
care if they care because itstruck a nerve it's only care,
so people can be mean, cruel.
But what I thought immediatelywhen you said that about that
woman, I just wanted to say toher just put my hand on her
shoulder and say imagine beingthe kind of person that says
that about someone else.
Like, imagine being that kindof person.

(49:25):
Like that's yeah, like becauseyou probably have a problem with
alcohol.
Like I'm sorry or has beenseriously damaged by somebody
who has, yeah, the only person,that's people that say things
like that, are people who alsoeither have a problem or who
lived, who grew up like that andyes your fault, but it is.
It does make you do things thatare it can be mean yeah we do

(49:48):
live in a different time and I'mso grateful and I and I'm here
for it, and I love that we canexpress ourselves in so many
ways.
I just get nervous.
I get nervous about the youngerfolk, um, who are, or anybody,
I guess, who wants to do things.
You know, and again, I can onlysay this to people, I think,

(50:11):
who are more rooted like we are,who I don't know.
You know, I think if you aretalking about quitting alcohol,
like we know, it's a poison.
Nobody, nobody, should drink it.
The World Health Organizationsaid no amount of alcohol is
safe for anybody.
If you're talking about doingthat, then you probably have,
there's probably a problem, butpeople don't want to say that,

(50:33):
you know.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
You know I'm excited by this next generation.
I think that this nextgeneration looks at things
through a different lens thanprior generations have and I
think that they're moreexploratory and more open to

(50:56):
trying things and trulyexperiencing that trial.
And so if sober curious leadssomebody to try not drinking for
a month and see how they feel,but not declaring I'm going to
quit drinking, like okay, dothat.
Be curious and be aware of howyou feel.

(51:17):
And if it is something that youthen think, well, I could just,
you know, go to drinking onoccasion at a wedding and that
works for you, like great.
But if it leads to you feelinglike wow, my life is so much
better, I want to keep goinggreat.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Like there's no wrong answers in curiosity I totally
agree with you and for a whilein the beginning I was really
like offended by it all.
I felt like like it took me awhile and it's not our way,
right.
I would say this, but in outloud.
I would say I'm so glad likewhatever works for you and I
still believe that like whateverworks for you.
But lately, in the last likeone or two years, I really have

(51:55):
been like you know what that'stheir journey, you know, and if
you curiosity helps you.
I guess in the beginning I wasafraid, like because.
I was afraid it would keeppeople drunk longer.
You know, and if you curiosityhelps you, I guess in the
beginning I was afraid, likecause, I was afraid it would
keep people drunk longer youknow, which then they may not
get there.
So I was just like so afraidthat it would just make people
die.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
I mean, if I put, if I put me in my twenties in today
, I would have wanted to be takepart in dry January as a
bandwagoner.
I love, I love joining thingsthat everybody else is doing.
So I would have done that, Iwould have white knuckled it, I
would have like hooray for me, Igot through it and February 1,
I would have been off to theraces.

(52:32):
So for me it would not havedone what I needed to get that
kind of clarity and sobriety,because I would have been doing
it for all the wrong reasons.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
And you're.
But, like you said, and I thinka lot of people probably are
like that and they are doingthat, but you know what?
So who, who cares?
So 30 days you stay sober andlike, hey, good for you.
And then you get to experiencewhether you, whether it all,
registers at that time or not,or maybe you go back to it or
you file it away in your brain.
You know, as you get toexperience, what happens for you
and your body and your brainwhen you aren't drinking.
How often are you thinkingabout drinking?

(53:09):
What happened to your body?
Your skin cleared up?
Oh, my gosh, my digestive tractis working properly Like I can.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
I can sleep better yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Like when you start.
But if you do it like, ifyou're able to be like, oh, I
noticed these things, and thenyou go back to doing what you
were doing and then things goback and then hopefully you
don't like that, you know, andyou make the connection.
So you're right now.
I'm just kind of like you knowwhat.
It's not my story, you know, itwas really it wasn't out of like
like, those feelings weren'tlike, those programs were bad.

(53:38):
I'm friends with a lot of thosewomen.
I've talked to them and I'mgrateful for them that are doing
those things.
I just I was more afraid.
Yeah, I don't think my way isthe best way.
I don't mean whatever.
Everyone has their own thingbut I just don't want people to
suffer any longer than they haveto.
But I also know we all have tosuffer as long as it takes for
us to get to where, where we're,where we're sick and tired of

(53:59):
being sick and tired andsometimes it means in out in out
.
You know I have a client thatI've been working with for a
couple of years Well, no, it wasprobably a year Chronic,
chronic, chronic relapse.
They're older than me, samekids chronic, lifelong alcoholic
.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
So painful, Multiple I couldn't stand it anymore.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
I was like I just can't even work with you anymore
.
I mean I did, but I was justlike I can't watch you die, like
it was awful and I mean Iunderstand it, but my heart was
just breaking, you know, and Ijust pray, like they went back
to treatment again um, justrecently and I pray, I just pray
that it, you know it stickslike.

(54:42):
This is the time because I dobelieve we do recover.
We should never give up.
We don't know when the time isgoing to be, but it's
heartbreaking for those aroundyou.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
You know.
So I'm grateful.
I will say that when I thinkback to my time in AA, then I
was really deep in it.
What, what made such adifference for me was having a
supportive community and beingable to hear people who felt the

(55:13):
things that I felt that Ididn't feel like, so completely
unique, like nobody else canunderstand me.
Everybody else in the roomcould understand me, and so I
would say that in today's world,with all of the choices,
community and um, a communitywhere people actually talk about

(55:34):
what's really going on is is soimportant.
It's so important, like gettingsober through a book or getting
sober through a video orgetting sober through, you know,
online stuff.
My hats are off to you if youcan do that.
But I would say community iseverything, and I think for me,

(55:54):
that's one of the reasons whynow being openly sober in all
areas of my life is becausethere are people who didn't know
this about me who are now suchcheerleaders and so supportive.
I'll tell a quick story, whichis I am part of a community
choir and so you know, in achoir, like, there's no reason
why they would know that I drinkor don't drink.

(56:16):
I'm pretty open about it Like.
On all of my drinking glasses Ihave our logo Sober Life Rocks,
and so if anybody cared to lookat that, they could see it.
I'm not hiding it, but it'sjust not a conversational piece.
And two weeks ago our choirdirector, at the end of choir,
said you know, it's being atough time for a lot of people
right now, and so, rather thanspend the last 10 minutes

(56:39):
rehearsing one more piece, Ijust want to hear some good news
.
I just want to hear from peoplelike what's some good news
going on?
And so one person raised theirhand and say, oh, I just got a
new job, and I was like yay.
And somebody said, oh, I got totake my kids to Disneyland.
I was like yay.
Somebody else said somethingelse, and so finally I just here
we go.
And I raised my hand and I saidI just celebrated 20 years

(57:01):
sober, and the entire choirerupted Like it wasn't that yay,
it was like hooting andhollering and clapping.
It just felt tremendous to havethis community.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
And you know why they did that, Because everybody
knows someone whether it's intheir family, whether they were
raised by one the living one,their one themselves or their
parenting one.
It is so pervasive that itaffects every single person, so
no matter what community you'rein, that's why they cheered like
that, because everybody knowswhat that means.
Yeah, All of them, maybe notthemselves.

(57:39):
But they know what that meansand it's profound, you're right,
like I think community too, andthat's why.
And but they know what thatmeans and it's profound, you're
right, like I think communitytoo, and that's why.
But I love that we have thebooks.
I love that we have all thethings.
That's why I still recommend AAin the beginning, because you
need a fellowship of people whoare sober, doing sober things.
Like you need to be like alittle bit brainwashed, but like
that's not the only thing youneed.

(57:59):
It's just that it will help youget around people who are
automatically the same rightLike they're not going to be the
same, or people who would notnormally mix right, but they're
going to be telling stories.
It's also a place where you canlaugh at the worst things ever.
You know, like, and you'resitting and you're like, oh my
gosh, but everyone's laughingabout this horrific story.
So, yeah, or people you cancall and say, like I just really

(58:19):
want to, like, shake my kidright now.
You know like, how do I not dothat, you know, and then they
help you do that, right?
So yeah, I mean, we all needpeople who are similar to us,
even though they might be in adifferent stage of life or
beliefs or whatever else, butthat that is truly how it works,
and so I don't think you haveto look for to find it anymore,

(58:41):
which I'm really grateful for.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Well, thank you so much, Margie, for your time.
This has been just a phenomenalconversation actually.
I think super refreshing tojust be like deep in our roots
about sobriety and like who weare and what we are and just
embracing that.
I love that so much, and thecommunity I know is going to as
well.
So where do you like people toreach out and get a hold of you
if they want to?

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Well, a couple of things.
One is soberliferockscom is ourwebsite.
We now have the largest soberprofessionals group on LinkedIn
and what you would type into thesearch bar is Sober Life Rocks
community.
We do have a page with thecommunity and anybody can join.
We have people there who arefrom HR, who are event planners,

(59:27):
who are just the professionallives and just carrying on the
conversation about what it is tonavigate our lives as sober
people professionally and whatwe can do to normalize it.
And then the third thing I wantto mention is that we are
hosting a conference in Januaryof 2026 called Amplify Sober
Voices, and it's for speakersand podcasters and writers and

(59:52):
coaches and anybody who isleading the sober movement to
come and amplify our sobervoices.
And so that's Am sobervoicescom.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Awesome.
I'll make sure I link all ofthat in the show notes below.
So thank you again.
So much for your time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I hope our paths cross again soon and I hope you
have a fantastic day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Thank you for having me, Shelby, it's really really
been special.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
You're so welcome, all right, awesome.
Thank you for joining me forthis week's episode of Confident
Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And hey, if you really loved it, leave me a review.

(01:00:35):
You can learn more about theSober Freedom Inner Circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.