Transforming Financial Habits From Debt to Empowerment w/Linda Parmar

In this powerful episode of the Confident Sober Women podcast, host Shelby John sits down with Linda Parmar, a financial coach specializing in helping women in recovery achieve financial sobriety. 

With raw honesty, Linda shares her journey from being a financial advisor managing millions while secretly drowning in credit card debt and engaging in "blackout shopping."

Key Topics Covered:

• Understanding financial sobriety and breaking free from spending addiction
• The emotional connection between money behaviors and recovery
• How childhood money stories impact our current relationship with finances
• Practical strategies for creating a sustainable spending plan without restriction
• Breaking the shame cycle around financial literacy and money management
• Tips for avoiding spending triggers and establishing healthy money boundaries

Notable Insights:

• Linda's personal journey of paying off $130,000 in credit card debt
• The concept of "financial infidelity" and its impact on relationships
• Why traditional budgets often fail and how spending plans offer a better alternative
• The importance of addressing emotional triggers and money mindset
• Practical solutions like grocery pickup and removing shopping apps to avoid triggers

Resources Mentioned:

• Rocket Money app for spending tracking (US)
• Strategies for building a personalized spending plan
• Tips for maintaining financial sobriety while in recovery

Connect with Linda Parmar:

• Website: lindaparmar.com
• Instagram: @lyndaparmarmoneycoach
• Podcast: Financial Sobriety School

Whether you're in recovery or simply looking to develop a healthier relationship with money, this episode offers valuable insights into breaking free from financial shame and creating lasting change. Linda's story proves that no matter how deep in debt you may be, recovery is possible with the right support and tools.

Share this episode with someone who might be struggling with their relationship with money or anyone interested in learning more about financial sobriety.

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Oh, and by the way, if you didn’t know, my remote Neurofeedback Therapy program is up and running. Learn more here!

If you aren't part of the Confident Sober Women Facebook group, it's a great place to be. There are over a thousand other sober women there building lives they don't want to escape from. Come on over and join us.

And if you haven't read my memoir, grab a copy today and maybe a second one for a friend. There is so much hope in recovery, and I shared my story so raw and vulnerable so that others would know they aren't alone and that there is a way to live well, manage relationships, parent your kids, and have a healthy body, all while staying sober. Grab a copy of Recovering in Recovery: The Life-Changing Joy of Sobriety wherever books are sold.

Episode Transcript

Shelby (00:09):
Hello and welcome to the Confident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common, and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection.

(00:30):
So we know we are no longeralone.
In this podcast, you will hearreal life talk about building
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk, okay.

(00:51):
Well, hey there, linda.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women podcast.
I am so excited that you'rehere and on a topic that is so
important but yet also sometimesso difficult to talk about for
so many of us.
So I'm really glad that we'rehaving this conversation, and I
know a lot of people are goingto get just so much out of it.
So I'm going to turn the micover to you and let you share a

(01:11):
little bit more about your storyand then we're going to chat
For sure.

Linda (01:14):
Thanks, shelby, it's so great to be here, and thanks for
the opportunity to talk aboutmoney Because I think, again,
like you said, it's one of thosethings that people are
uncomfortable about talkingabout, Just kind of like, I
think, when I first got soberI'm going to be celebrating 11
years in March and at first itwas really hard for me to talk
about my recovery overall andthen, now that you know, I

(01:38):
really try to give it the voice,like money, like the voice I
give to my recovery overall,because people need to hear
about it, people need to talkabout it.
So that's what I do.
I'm a money coach who helpssupport women in recovery.
I focus on financial sobriety.
So what that means is justgetting financially sober

(02:00):
financial recovery, whateverterm you want to use for that.
My story, a little bit about mybackground and how I came to be
a financial coach, is that Iactually worked as a financial
advisor for about 20 years andin that time I would say it was

(02:22):
17 years into my career I gotsober and even before, that kind
of backing up to childhood likemoney was always a really hard
topic.
Money was always a really hardthing and it was one of those
things that the energy of it wasreally uncomfortable all the

(02:42):
time.
I grew up in a home with twoalcoholic parents who got sober
when I was growing up, Thankgoodness, and what a gift to me.
But as I was in my career as afinancial advisor, I was
investing millions of dollarsfor people and I was addictively

(03:02):
spending money.
I was addictively spendingmoney all the time.
I was telling people what theyshould do with their money and I
was just a financial disaster.
And it was when I was.
I had gotten sober and the jobitself had was sucking the life
out of me, but I was actually.

(03:23):
Once I got sober from fromalcohol, I did an addiction
transference, which is sometimesreally a regular thing.
That happens with us inrecovery is we look for
something else to numb out on.
You know, the drink or drugs ordrinking aren't there anymore.
So I started to completelyblack out on spending money.
I remember one specificshopping trip that I don't

(03:48):
remember anything about.
It.
All I remember is coming homeand my husband was like wow, you
know, like that's a lot ofshopping bags.
I didn't even remember being inthere.
I'd spent over $800 and thiswas something that I regularly
was taking part in.
So from there, you know, Ifinanced our home to use it as

(04:11):
my wallet.
I committed what I like to calllike financial infidelity.
I was doing things financiallythat I was kind of tricking and
coercing my husband into, and hedidn't have the knowledge of
what was really going on.
He trusted me.
I was a banker, I was afinancial advisor.
Just sign here and you know,almost losing our home, our cars

(04:35):
, everything.
And I was on a she Recoversretreat and you know, put that
on a credit card.
I was on a she Recovers retreatand Dawn and I were sitting
there and she said, oh, we'redoing she Recovers coaches like
you should be a financial coachfor us.
And I was like, yeah, that's acomplete joke, like I'm a
financial disaster.

(04:56):
And she said to me sometimesyou need to teach what you need
to learn.
And I was like and that hit meand I still get goosebumps when
I tell this story because itchanged my life and it was like,
wow, so I took money coachtraining.
My first designation wasstrictly on money behaviors.
It didn't even get into thenumbers and stuff, which is

(05:19):
something that I've learned is ahuge tool because of like, we
can make budgets and we can lookat numbers and we can add them
up and everything's good.
But if we're buying things totry to make us feel better all
the time because we're superunhappy, like budgets aren't
going to do anything, like, whyare we reaching outside of

(05:41):
ourselves to feel better?
So the behaviors piece issomething I really focus on and
then, of course, pairing thatwith my financial advisor hat
and being able to build what Icall like spending plans.
Most people come to me andbudgets feel too restrictive,
like tried budgets.
They don't work.
So, yeah, we go on to a buildinga spending plan, looking at

(06:03):
behaviors, really understandingwhy we're doing what we're doing
with money, which can be scary.
So that's a big piece of mystory.
I had over and this is always anumber that I feel all the
things in my body my husband andI were over $130,000 in credit

(06:24):
card debt and, as of September2023, we had paid them off.
So it was.
I've been working on this for avery long time and what I think
is really powerful about mystory is that I've done it and
like from being someone who wasblackout shopping, spending

(06:47):
money to, you know having to payoff that debt feels really,
really good and I know thatbrings hope to some people
because it feels impossible.
And if I can do it and helpspread the word of like how to
do it, it makes it a lot moreaccessible and hopeful for
people.

Shelby (07:07):
It sure does.
This is exactly how it works,right, this is what we're taught
that, like when we get well,we're able to spread the message
of hope.
Exactly like you said.
And you know, sometimes we arein the midst of people in our
family or our friends or whoever, who just aren't ready to
receive what we have, and that'stotally fine too, but we just
never know when it's going to beuseful, right, like you know,

(07:33):
you were talking to somebody inyour friend group or whatever,
and then suddenly, two yearsfrom now, that friend has like
another friend who she wastalking to, and then all of a
sudden now she's connecting herto you and we just don't know,
and for sure.
That's why I think that,although anonymity is such a
such a nice part of, like a lotof the 12-step programs and such
and I believe in that I gotsober in and I think that it's

(07:55):
very valuable for a lot ofreasons there is a piece of us
that um I do believe is meant toshare, um in a way we feel
comfortable with.
Like, not everybody wants toshare all the gory details of
their stories publicly, andthat's completely fine, but you
can share some things, like youknow, I know what it feels like
to be so desperate that I justhad I felt like I had no way out

(08:17):
.
Or I know what it feels like tojust be so embarrassed that I
had to go crawl to my husbandand tell him these things.
You know, like we don't have toshare every single detail for
it to still be really impactful.
I always like to say that.
So, yeah, I love that.
Thank you so much for sharingso vulnerably.
To speaking of that, I do thinkthat it is how it works.
People do relate to this.

(08:39):
I think in many, many ways welive in a land.
If you were, if you live inAmericaica I was born in america
, I've never lived anywhere elseif you live here, it's really
the land of the plenty.
You know, um, I think even ifyou're a lower income or
considered poor in our country,that's significantly better off
than many, many places in thisworld.
And um, you know, that's notsomething I've first had

(08:59):
experience with, but I've talkedto other friends of mine who've
come from other countries andum've told me things like that,
you know, and it does make merealize, you know, like our
rapport here are just not thesame as some other like poor
people in in the world.
So we live in the land of theplenty.
You know there's abundanceeverywhere.
There's food everywhere.
There's.
There's products.

(09:20):
There's dollar stores, there'schachkis, there's's.
You know there's just stuffeverywhere, no matter where you
turn, and every single walmartand every single you know gas
station.
You know there's just so much.
Sometimes I go in those gasstations and I'm always like I'm
not a big like stuff person,like I don't like to have a lot
of stuff around and things, youknow.
So sometimes I'm just I don't,I don't, that's not just not my,

(09:42):
that's not my thing, right?
Um, but I'll see these thingslike on the counters and stuff
like who's buying this, likewho's buying that stuff, but
like people are.

Linda (09:50):
People are right, for sure.
Yep, most definitely.
And yeah, I bet a lot of thepeople I work with probably are
buying some of that stuff.
I don't know what it's likeI've heard I I'm in Canada, so
gas stations are probably alittle bit different here.
But yeah, it's that stuff thingthat you were talking about.
Right, and when is it enough?

(10:11):
When can we just finally be whowe are, where we are, and live
with what we have?
And I think that life is kindof teaching us that right now,
in this moment of time ofgetting back to being like
simple, because the cost of foodand everything is really
something that in my world,people are really struggling

(10:32):
with and, um, you know theeconomies and everything, and so
it's one of those things that,um, yeah, it's it's a lot right
now, and so really kind ofkeeping it top of mind and
controlling what we can rightnow.
So, yeah, it's one of thosethings in my world where there's

(10:52):
just stuff everywhere and thenit's like and the cost of living
, and we're just completelyliving in debt, trying to just
get by in life and it can feelimpossible to just get by in
life and it can feel impossible.

Shelby (11:07):
It certainly can, and it is such an emotional experience
.
You know the stuff that we'retalking about is.
I mean, we are kind ofsimplifying things at times by
saying you know stuff or thingsthat are registered or whatever,
but it's an emotionalexperience.
There is a dopamine quality tothis experience.
It's exactly the same as oursubstance use addiction, right.
So like absolutely the samething that we get.
You know I have.
I spending wasn't really mything, really necessarily, but I

(11:30):
had once I got sober.
I've been sober for kind of along time and you know I was.
Whatever other things cancertainly fill in for me that
void or that addiction.
Right, that's not substances.
I'm not going to die from it,at least not right away, but it
certainly does have the samequalities.
Things like food, um, uh,plenty or not enough, you know I

(11:51):
mean both of those are, are,are part of my story and so, um,
I can definitely relate to thathit, you know, and you know,
just for just to be kind ofsilly, like, um, you know I was
always.
I was raised as an athlete andso we always were a very, very
healthy.
I was a marathon runner for 10years and so it was very rich.
I was extremely rigid andregimented with my food.
I was weighing, measuring allthe stuff for many years and

(12:14):
that's fine.
That worked whatever for aperiod of time.
And then when COVID hit, I wasraising three teenagers in our
home.
That was extremely traumatic.
We were in like a sustainedtrauma for four years, basically
in our home.
That was extremely traumatic.
We were in like a sustainedtrauma for four years.
Basically, that was washorrific.
And around that time I startedto develop like emotional eating
and like I didn't ever havethat problem before.

(12:36):
So it's very similar to thespending right.
But like for me, like in ourhome is everything is super like
not exactly perfect, but it'spretty clean, like there's
nothing really here, you know,there's just very clean foods.
It's like we eat the same foodsevery day and that's fine.
But then I would get like in mycar and like as soon as I got
in my car it was like this thinghappened.
I actually had to like do someEMDR work on this?
Like okay, get in the car andbe like what, where can I get?

(12:58):
Like where can I get like Ooh,like what, like it was, like the
seeking behavior, like drug, itwas all it was.
It was terrible and Ioccasionally that will still
happen because it's like it'slike that when I leave my home.
It's that uncontrolledenvironment and and it is a
dopamine hit.

Linda (13:15):
It's very scary.

Shelby (13:15):
So it's the same thing for people with a spending and
you're standing in that registerand there's 17 things.
You know that's only a dollaror it's two things for a dollar
or whatever, and you knowsuddenly that stuff adds up.
And so you know, sometimes it'sa blessing that we live in a
place that has I don't know.
I don't know about Canada.
I feel like it's probablysimilar that we have everything
we need you know, everything weneed, but then it can be a curse

(13:37):
too?

Linda (13:38):
Yeah, it most definitely can, and it's, and it's in the
society we're living in.
And it's in the society we'reliving in especially those of us
who struggle with spending andwant to like it's.
There's the social pressures ofit, like having certain name
brands, looking a certain way,and, especially when you're in
recovery, there starts to becomethat feeling as well of feeling

(13:59):
other, and then so you'rewanting to fit in with other
people and I see that a lot ofjust like, especially like that
name brand stuff and looking acertain way and doing certain
things.
And when I first got sober andthe spending was going bananas
for me, it was like, of courseI'm going to go to the spa, of
course I'm going to go for aweekend away, I'm sober, I'm not

(14:20):
drinking anymore, and it was,and that lasted until it didn't
right.
It was just kind of like Icreated such a mess, but I gave
myself that permission and Ithink there's a balance that
needs to happen Because, yes, Ithink that when we're in
recovery, there needs to be somethings that we do partake in,

(14:41):
that we treat ourselves with andthat kind of thing, but at the
same time, there needs to bethat balance with it and not
going too over the top.
And that's where it can feel alittle bit hard and that's where
, like I, what I call soberspending is really important,
like making intentionaldecisions with your spending.
Planning your spending is soimportant.

(15:04):
I think that, out of anything,planning your spending, really
being in conscious, like contactwith it, where am I in my
spending plan?
I think of it as like yourspending plans, like your map of
like what you want to do withyour money.
It could be a daily map, itcould be a monthly map, whatever
you want to look at, becauseagain, the restriction can kind

(15:26):
of come in, just like food right, like if you're heavily
restricting spending, you'regoing to go on a spending spree
and then so kind of building aspending plan, planning your
spending and then, yeah,checking in when am I on the map
?
What's going on?
Oh, I spent that.
What was that about?
How was I feeling in thatmoment?
What was going on?
Oh, I spent that.
What was that about?
How was I feeling in thatmoment?
What was going on?
And really just kind ofchecking in with your money.

(15:47):
But sometimes we need to dothat emotional work first to get
to the point where we can evenlook at our money Because it's
like oh, I'm not looking at, I'mnot opening that app, I'm not
doing that, like, why am I doingthat?
That feels really scary.
It's okay, why is it scary?
Let's work on that first.

Shelby (16:04):
Well, I think that one of the things is we can only do
so many things at one time, sowe can't like try to go on a
health journey and also getsober and then also, you know,
decide we're going to run amarathon and then also say we're
going to, we're going to reduceour debt.
Like we kind of have to likeback it down and be like for
this stage, right now I'mfocused on my money and my goal

(16:26):
is debt reduction or whatever itis.
Save for whatever your goal is,you know, and then maybe in the
net, you know, a little bit oftime goes by, you get used to it
and then you're like, okay, nowI'm going to tackle my health
and so now I'm going to focus onnutrition or whatever, or
movement.
But yeah, when we start pilingon all these things, um, it's
really, it's really notsustainable.
And that's for sure end up likefailing or they have, you know,

(16:48):
like you know they can't soundsustainable, and then they so
they get down on themselves andit kind of restarts that whole
cycle.

Linda (16:53):
Most definitely.
Yeah, the shame spiral justhits again, and that's where, a
lot of the times, I actuallydon't recommend that people do a
lot of like deep money work,really until they're sober for a
little while, because I think,when it comes down to it, making
sure that your sobriety isnumber one.

Shelby (17:12):
Yeah, I think that it's really important to just assess
the first things first.
Right, that's a good principlethat we learned or at least I
did.
I got, when I got sober in likethe 12 steps that's one of the
phrases that we use in.
We use in in the programbecause it's it means this right
, let's take care of the firstthings that we need to take care
of.
They're the most importantthings and then we can start

(17:34):
layering on.
We can layer on emotionally too, like let's just take care of
getting sober.
Like when you get first getsober, or you're like well, I
have a problem with substances,or somebody tells you you do, or
whatever.
You know it's a lot of workjust to try to get and stay
sober for many, many months, andthen you can be like okay, now
I can layer in like step work ortherapy or whatever, not going

(17:57):
to jump into all of it at once.
Let's just stay sober one dayat a time.

Linda (18:00):
for like a while, and then we layer in other stuff.

Shelby (18:03):
So it's the same thing with money and I can, I can
totally see it, because it isoverwhelming and it's not really
about the money, just like thesubstance.
I mean, that's just kind oflike the, the symptom, right.
But one of the things that Ican't remember I can't remember
if you touched on this in yourstory, but one thing that I've
seen, and maybe you've seen thisor experienced it too, is I've
seen some people, like in my inmy life, my personal life and

(18:25):
then in work too, who wereraised in families where there
just really wasn't any money,like they just really were poor,
right, lived in a land of justjust lack, and so then they kind
of kind of get up and out Rightand maybe they become
successful, they get educated orthey get great jobs and they
start to become successful.

(18:46):
So they're making money andthey may not have any education
around it.
Maybe they don't have, theydon't know about savings or
401ks and all that stuff,because that wasn't the language
that was being used.
But this emotional experienceand this mindset around money
and I really want you to talkabout this, this mindset around
money that I've seen and peopleis like I'm never going to have
have that experience ever again,nor are my children.

(19:08):
And so then it like becomeslike the opposite, like then
they go well, we're going to getthis car because we never had
that kind of car, you know, andI'm going to, I'm going to give
my kids all this money.
Uh, one of my daughters, um,significant other, we had this
and we had that, and it was likethey were just.
He was just constantly handingthose kids money because, well,

(19:30):
I've never, I don't ever wantthem to feel like I did yeah, I.

Linda (19:34):
I never want them to feel like there's never enough.

Shelby (19:36):
That's actually not going to work out for you, heck,
no.
So it's that money, it's thatmindset piece like that you were
raised with.
So how does somebody reallykind of like tackle that?
Because I feel like thatactually needs to be first right
, like what are your?
Beliefs about money.

Linda (19:52):
What do you?

Shelby (19:53):
believe money is?
What do you believe it isn't?
What does it mean to have a lot, not enough?
What is it that you believe?
How do you work with people on?

Linda (20:00):
that.
Yeah, I think that what Iusually do is like we work on
what I call their money storyand I think that kind of
thinking of what's reallypowerful is thinking of what's
your first memory of money andwhat was the feeling of it.
I've had so many people come tome with my parents always

(20:20):
thought about money.
Money was always stressful.
Money was like we never haveenough, we can't afford that, we
can't afford that, like thatconstant message all of the time
, or them or the parents sittingat the kitchen table with the
bills out fighting over money,and that would be like so many
people.
That's their vision of whatmoney is as a child, right?

(20:43):
So, as we know, in our recoveryand therapy and all that stuff,
like what happens in ourchildhood really can and does
impact our adult life, and sowhen it comes to that, it's like
okay, like exactly that.
What do I think about money?
What do I believe about money?
And then a really powerfulquestion to ask yourself is

(21:04):
who's actually saying that?
Like whose voice is that?
Is that even mine?
Does this even belong to me?
And most of the time I say 90%of the time it doesn't belong to
you.
It's something that you haveinherited in conversations.
And then I love getting to likethe science-y, like when it

(21:26):
comes to like trauma and howit's passed down in families and
all of that Like the DNA, justlike how it gets passed down
from person to person, and likethere's trauma in there too,
right?
So then we have grandparents orgreat-grandparents that lived
through the depression and maybeyour parents were kids of like

(21:47):
living in the depression or justdifferent things that happen
historically that then getpassed on to your parents like
nobody talks about money.
It's this thing that likeeverybody was thrown into.
I would say hardly anybody hasbeen in a home where, like, they
talk about money a lot and thenso, yeah, that financial
literacy there becomes shame.

(22:08):
Like why don't I know this?
Why, why, why don't I knowabout money?
Why don't I know about a 401k?
Why don't I know about savings?
I was never taught that.
Then it's like so, like so muchembarrassment and shame to even
talk like that.
Right when?
That's where I want to like getrid of that stigma of talking
about it, because if you bringit up to your friend, how great

(22:30):
would it be for them to say like, yeah, I have no idea what
people are talking about whenthey're talking about it either,
Like what are we doing?

Shelby (22:38):
Yeah, I love the idea of doing that money story.
It's kind of like an initialactivity when you're working
with somebody, or any of us cando this right.
It's just to be able to reallykind of identify.
And I have done a little bit ofwork on this because, although
the spending wasn't really atotal issue for me, some of the
money mindset stuff was and Iwas actually I was raised in a

(23:00):
family, we were my parents, myfamily was a business owner.
It was fine.
They were like we were fired,we had everything we needed and
most things we wanted, and myhusband happens to be an
accountant and he doesn't workin an accounting firm, but he's
like extremely, um, you know,financially literate and that's
actually something that getstalked about.
That's pretty much all anybodytalks about around here.
So it's not great either.
But I was always because of thebecause I guess maybe the way

(23:26):
we were raised it wasn'tnecessarily a bad thing, but
something in me made it bad,maybe, like, maybe it was my own
addiction side or just notreally being emotionally mature,
I guess, and then also myhusband's style.
And it's not like he's bad,it's just that he's just very,
you know, wanting to just.
He just wants to say he justwants us to be okay later and I
love that about him.
But I was constantly that girlwas like we can't afford that.

Linda (23:49):
That's too expensive.

Shelby (23:50):
Like not necessarily always outwardly, but sometimes
always instead, oh, I can't dothat.
And so I I finally identifiedthat or somebody.
I came across somebody like youprobably, who started to talk
about the language we use and Iwas like, okay, I didn't
necessarily need to take anynecessarily real action
financially, although it's nevera bad thing to do that.
I needed to change my language.

(24:12):
So I started to really notice,like when I was using words like
that like expensive or we can'tafford that, and I started to
challenge myself on that and Iwould say things like that like
expensive or we can't affordthat, and I and I started to
challenge myself on that and Iwould say things like that's
actually just not true, like wecan afford that, but we use all
of our resources for somethingelse.
Right, yeah, I love that we usedour resources to, for my kids
went to private school, so, likeour kid, we pay a lot of

(24:34):
tuition, so sure, we couldafford to go on two gigantic
vacations a year probably, butwe chose to do something else
with that money and so when Istarted doing that a little bit
more and I started doing thatwith my kids a little, who are
all young adults now.
Like I remember one time wewere out to dinner and somebody
called me and said, like can youstop and pick us up something?
And I was like, oh no, there'sstuff at home, or whatever.

(24:56):
And they're like what do youmean?
We don't have any money, orwhatever.
I said we.
I said we used our resourcesfor other things.

Linda (25:04):
Yeah, nice, I love that.

Shelby (25:10):
Yeah, so I'm trying.
So it's for me, but it'sprobably benefiting other people
, because I catch myself in thata lot and it's not true.
It's not a true statement, youknow, and we all have choices,
so we all get to decide what wespend our money on too.
And also, this is a valuesquestion.
I mean, this is a deeper partof the story, but this is a
values question.
To us, education is extremelyvaluable, so we spend a
tremendous amount of money oneducation.
Some people might not have that, but they would rather have

(25:34):
adventure or travel or a nicerhome or a pool and like so great
, so you get to do that, right.
Um, so we all have.
We all have choices.
My oldest one, I remember sayingone time when she's young,
she's like I'm just the kind ofgirl that always needs to have
my nails done.
I just know I need to have my.
I said that's fine.
I said that's cool to know that.
I said you know that aboutyourself.
I said you're just going toneed to make sure you always
have that as a line item in yourplan, like great, and then you

(25:58):
won't probably go to Starbucksthree times a month because
you'll need that money for nails.
Yes, we just have to make achoice like you can have that,
but then you can't.

Linda (26:07):
We can't do all of the things.
Yes, most definitely.
And it's again.
There's such that balance rightand having that awareness and
really thinking about it.
Because we live in this plasticworld right now where we're
just tapping stuff.
Right, we're just tapping stuff.
Most of us I don't use creditcards very often, because it's
still a slippery slope for me,because it can so easily add up

(26:32):
and it all of a sudden is likehow is there like to 2500 on my
credit card, like we were usingit for gas to get quote unquote
points, like this system is notworking.
It's like, so I don't use thema lot, but we're just tapping
and we're not actually likeseeing how much is going through
our bank accounts and that sortof thing.
So, and then all of a suddenit's like I don't have money to

(26:54):
pay those bills, like, and a lotof people these days are
spending money even before theyget it.
So it's yeah yeah.

Shelby (27:02):
So first you do the story, which I love.
I'm just attached to some moneymindset work and then you
mentioned, like the budget, prosand cons.
I guess you know like it's prosand cons to both.
Right, it sounds like it isnice, I think, to have an
understanding about like everysingle one of your line items.
Right?
So you have, you know, rent,you have car, you have groceries
, daycare, whatever all thebills that you have to pay.

(27:24):
That is your budget and so it'shelpful to have that like deep
understanding because, like yousaid, I mean I don't think a lot
of people have a lot of andagain, I don't really think it's
our fault, because at leasthere in our country they don't.
This is not a school thing andit's a shame.
It should be a financialliteracy class in all the
schools.
It is not.

(27:44):
Why is that not a part ofschool?
I know, so they should know like.
And then silly things they'renot silly, but things like
insurance, you know like.
You know we have life insuranceand homework, all the things
like.
You forget about some of thoselike other bills, but they are a
part of your life and so thenit's like easy to not have sight
into that if you don't see themall on your paper.

(28:05):
But then you said like sometimesthat creates feelings of
restriction, so you usually liketo have a spending plan.
Can you say a little bit morelike how do you work with
somebody on, like at the verybeginning stages, like what are
your first steps that somebodycould literally kind of take
away maybe consider doing now?

Linda (28:20):
Yeah, I think that when it comes to it like what I think
of a spending plan is is whatyou're choosing to spend your
money on, and we have fixedexpenses in life where we
actually don't have a choiceright, like things like rent or
mortgage or whatever, right, butthen it really comes down to
you know, how am I spendingmoney?

(28:40):
What does this look like?
Because a lot of people will belike I have no idea where my
money goes, and that's the onething I hear all the time and so
really kind of, when I think ofspending plan, it just feels
like it creates more of a choicethan like budget.
Right, the word budget is justso triggering for people.
So it's kind of like a spendingplan is planning your money,

(29:03):
planning your spending and justputting a little bit of a twist
on it, so like it doesn't feelthat restriction.
But even then, like really kindof like what are my fixed
expenses?
How much do I make every month?
How much do I have left over?
Oh, no wonder I don't have anymoney.
I'm spending like $1,500 onDoorDash or whatever, and so and

(29:25):
that's actually what I call itlike fixed expenses and then
variable expenses, so gas,groceries, eating out that kind
of thing that you have to likeintentionally plan it or else it
can get out of control reallyquickly.
So it's one of those things Iknow in the States, one of the
apps that I recommend to useit's so different between Canada

(29:48):
and the US now for apps thatpeople like for budgeting in the
States you guys have so many,but the one I recommend is
called Rocket Money, and so itis a very easy way to like if
you want to put your accounts inthere, build a spending plan
aka budget in there, and it canlike help you track your

(30:10):
spending.
It does it automatically, butchecking in with that
consciously every day and havingjust like I call it a money
date, you know at least once aweek, kind of like okay, where
am I, how are things going, howhave my emotions tied into my
spending this week?
What felt good, what didn't,you know.
Really checking in with thatstuff I think is really

(30:31):
important because planning is soimportant.
That's why I call it a spendingplan.

Shelby (30:37):
I agree with that.
Planning is so important and itdoesn't need to be fixed.
This call it a spending plan.
I agree with that.
Planning is so important and itdoesn't need to be fixed.
This isn't written in stone.
It can be fluid, it's like aplan.
And then we, we become flexible.
You know, somebody gets ill, oryou have a big house repair, I
mean things come up, we get this, but you have at least an
outline, an outline, and so thenyou know, some months might be

(30:59):
great.
You're like, oh wow, weactually like saved a bunch of
money on like groceries becausewe had, we were invited to
things, you know.
Or you just end up getting abunch of coupons or whatever we
did, you know.
So, okay, I love that.
It's kind of like when I talkabout exercise, because that's a
big part of my program as well,and just like mental health in
general, but exercise is not a.
I always use the word movement,you know, because exercise can

(31:19):
be very triggering for people,and especially a lot of women
just don't like to do that, andso they hear that and they're
like forget that, or theyautomatically assume it's a gym,
you know, but like movement,really, anything you want it to
be, you can be riding in youryard with your dog or riding the
bike in your neighborhood.
It's just moving your body.
So it's the same concept likeswitching to language to make it

(31:47):
a little bit more sustainableand accessible and feel better.
You mentioned the feelingsaround it and I you know I
understand feelings, I get it.
I'm just curious how, likemaybe what you see or how you
help people to like notice that.
Do you like give theminstructions around, like when
you're doing the plan, noticehow you're feeling or where you
feel in your body, or like whenyou're out and about.
Notice Is that how you workwith them?

Linda (32:03):
For sure, and there's definitely some like I'm a big
fan of like the word pause, likepracticing the pause, like
pausing and like yeah, that'ssomatic work, that that we have
to do overall in our lives andin recovery to try to be as
present as possible, becausewith money we can dissociate so

(32:26):
easily Like honestly, like Iwould say people most of the
time dissociate when it comes tomoney, conversations, making
decisions with money, andsometimes it takes a while.
So I'm a really big believer onlike habit stacking of like
what's working for you alreadyright now on your recovery.
Let's kind of build on that.
So it would be for a lot ofpeople in recovery.

(32:48):
We have like morning routines.
So that would be like prayer,meditation, you know different
things, like that journaling,and then it's like okay, like
let's get really like into ourbodies, feel how it's feeling,
and then maybe part of ourmorning routine, we can have a
little money date with ourselvesand sit at our meditation table

(33:09):
and open up our app and seelike oh, how did spending go
yesterday, what do I plan tospend today?
And then like really kind ofyou're already in that relaxed
zone of things you already knowhow to do and you know, make you
feel good, and starting to tiethose in, because we have so
many unconscious messages thatphysically show up in our body

(33:29):
with money that we're like westiffen up or again we
dissociate and we don't evenknow what's going on.

Shelby (33:36):
Yeah, you use that word dissociate and that really
grabbed me for sure.
Like why do you think that isthe case?
Like what is happening withthat?

Linda (34:02):
And it's just and for me, like I grew up in a home where,
like, there was a lot ofyelling and fighting about money
, so like when I think, when Iused to think about doing money,
stuff like I would be frozen intime.
It would just bring back all ofthat baggage that isn't ours
and I.
One of the things I love to sayis like when people come to me,
I envision them wearing likethis really heavy backpack full
of river rocks, right, and I canactually physically hear it

(34:23):
Like they're just exhausted,they're frustrated, they're
shameful, they're embarrassed,they're angry, like all of the
feelings.
And as they start to tell mewhat's going on, I can hear like
the rocks coming out of theirbackpacks, right, like I can
hear like, literally, thatbaggage start to, you know, not
have that power anymore.

(34:44):
So it's yeah, money is heavy,it can feel really heavy, yeah.

Shelby (34:50):
I agree with you and I and I've seen it too and I
totally get it what you'resaying.
And one thing that I've, thatI've, I've kind of learned and
maybe heard through you know,that I've, I've kind of learned
and maybe heard through, youknow, social media or whatever
these sources or people, gurus Ifollow is probably around
shifting our, our language andour mindset.
But really a little bit deeperis an understanding of what

(35:11):
actually money actually is.
And I I admittedly, was totallyI never.
This never came up for me and Iwas like, oh, like that, it's
really we that we assign like avalue to it.
Value, yes, dollars, but alsojust like a whole, nother value,
when, honestly, it's literallyjust a means to an act, like

(35:32):
it's just a commodity right,that's the right word.
Like this, how people say it,like it's not a, it's not a
thing, it's just I need to buypotatoes and I have here's the
two2 for the potatoes and you'regoing to give me the potato.
There's nothing else about it.
And also, I think this relatesto jobs too, and I don't know
how you work with this at all,about people around their

(35:52):
careers or their jobs.
It's like people, I think, tendto do this with their jobs too.
They need sometimes certainkinds of jobs or status or
whatever, or they have to lovetheir job or their past has to
be their passion, when reallylike a job is really what we
just all we do to make money.
That's all it is, it's nothingelse.
It's not who you are, it's notan identity.

(36:15):
I mean, if you happen to likeit also, then you win.

Linda (36:18):
You know, like good for you, but really what we do to
make money, yeah, yeah, and alot of people have the
definition of what their moneylooks like.
Is defining who they are aspeople?
And so yeah, exactly so, likemy, like, my identity was like
debt and like and I used tospend money like it was mine.

(36:39):
It was like oh, I have $50,000available on a home equity line
of credit Great.
But in a different light and ina different scenario and it was

(37:05):
rough.
Yeah, for a while.
Yeah.

Shelby (37:08):
It is this one in particular, I think, is
amazingly how, how just the samethey are.
You know, yes, I think, food, Iguess too, but this one I feel
like even more, is just morethat dopamine and the shame
spiral and like because, again,like if you were raised and like
and I can see how that identitygets put on right Cause they're

(37:29):
like Ooh, you were raised inthis family where there wasn't
anything Right and then youbecame a something and now
you're like I have stuff, and soof course, that is like that
small, insecure, like childlikepart of yourself is going to
rear its ugly head.
Often, whenever you feel likeyou're less than or you don't
have enough or lack, getstriggered.
And so now you're suddenly theguy that's paying for everybody

(37:50):
while we're out to dinner, oryou're behind all the kids'
snowballs on the team and you'relike dude, you don't have to be
so flashy, it's not that big ofa deal, but it's fulfilling
that emotional need.
It is so big, um this is loaded.
I'm so glad that you were doingthe work that you're doing,
because, I mean, this is waymore than we can, obviously, you

(38:10):
know, really tackle too much ofin a short time.
But the work you're doing does,and that's that's.
It's so critical, because andwhat you said before too, I
think is really important thatI'm learning again a little bit
more.
I guess in my older years.
I don't know, is that peoplejust don't know stuff.
No, and it's not their fault.
You know, like it's whetherit's money or around nutrition

(38:31):
or whatever.
I remember people saying maybeyou probably hear this a lot too
like when you're creating yourcourses and different things.
Like we have to remindourselves that, like we're an
expert in our area, you know.
So that when we're talking,like it's very easy as a
clinician for me to be like, ohyeah, you know what validation
means.
Like everybody knows that.
Like do you see it on Instagramor whatever, and you're like
they probably don't.
They don't understand.
They've heard the word, but theymight not know what that means,

(38:53):
and so to me it's common sense,second nature.
This is not even a thought.
I know how to do that.
Same for you.
But somebody else might be likewow, yeah, I don't, and so we
have to dumb ourselves's areminder that I I have been
really having a lot lately.
It's just like a lot of peopledon't know things and it's again

(39:16):
, it's not because there'ssomething wrong with them, it's
just that they didn't comeacross their path or it just no
one was talking about it, andbut the thing that's great about
our country and yours, like youcan know it you know the
internet, so like you, literallycan decide like, oh, actually I
want to become more financiallyliterate.
And whether you call Linda oryou find somebody or you just go
to Google and you're like whatdoes that even mean?

(39:37):
Like we can know all the.
We can literally know anythingyes, literally know anything in
this day and age.
So, unfortunately, the shame isvery real and it can keep us
from doing that, it can keep usfrom going to know the thing.
But what I want everyone toknow and hear and feel is like
you can know anything, you wantanything.

(39:58):
You can sit in a public libraryand Google search to your
heart's content for two hoursand learn anything you want in
the whole world.
Now.

Linda (40:06):
For sure yeah.
That is a brilliant thing, yes,and I think too, like I have a
podcast.
Brilliant thing, yes, and Ithink too, like I have a podcast
.
Um, financial sobriety schooland I get I talk a lot about,
because sometimes you're notgoing to find people who are
talking about, like, theemotional piece with money, and
I think that's where, like,there's two sides of it.
Yes, there's that we can lookit up and we can figure out like

(40:28):
, oh, this is how I'm going tomake a budget.
But then there's also that partof us, like you talked about,
that inner child kind of thing,right, like, how do we get in
touch with that of, like, whatwe really need?
And I think, like and I have somany episodes that really get
into there's so much free stuffout there to be able to get into
, like what's really going on.

(40:49):
And we're so lucky in this dayand age that we have things like
you with your podcast and justlike doing the work that we're
doing.
The world needs more of it,that's for sure.

Shelby (41:00):
I think so too, and I'm thrilled to be in this time
period because of that.
And so sometimes I think andthe emotional piece is not no
issue is immune from that, sothat's always a part of every
issue, whether it's food.
So like when we start doingthat, like oh, she's just really
bad with money, or oh, she justcan't, like she's just

(41:23):
unhealthy or lazy or whateverthese things that we judgments
we make, or when we see otherpeople or we hear these stories,
there's always an emotionalcomponent behind it, always, and
so you can't do much workwithout getting doing that.
You know that has to be theemotional component of your
money story.
What did you learn about it?
Whose?
Whose values are you?

(41:44):
Are you picking up and makingyour own now, which maybe they
are, and that's fair, but whatare your core values?
What are your most importantthings to you in your life?
That goes with your money, andso maybe you really are a very
simple person and you just wantto live a very basic life.
You'd like service, you want togive a lot away.
There's just very things thatmaybe that's very important to

(42:04):
you and so you get to do that.
You know today, but maybethat's not where you came from,
you.
You came from like a completeopposite, and so, but getting
really good counsel on that kindof stuff, I think is obviously
the very most important part ofall of this.
And then we get into, like,building the spending plan.
And then, lastly, I just wantedto see about a couple of things

(42:25):
we can for sure.
Yeah, one is you mentioned thatyou don't use credit cards
anymore.
Um, one is you mentioned thatyou don't use credit cards
anymore.
I totally get that also, butI'm I'm wondering if you really,
if you, if you believe thatthat's the right choice for
everyone, or if it's just onestrategy, um, because there are
benefits, like we use them andwe pay them off every month, but
we use them for things, um, forbenefits, um.

(42:48):
And then also, how do you help,support people?
So so they're doing this,they're already down the track,
but you have to live like we,like you don't have to go on
vacation and like buy a fancycars, but you do need to go to
the grocery store or have you doneed to buy things, yeah, yeah.
So like, how do you so thosetwo things, like how do you kind
of work with people in a verypractical way tips, tools,

(43:12):
tricks on those?

Linda (43:12):
things For sure.
I think that when it comes tothe credit cards, it's just
something I do for myself and soI know what works for me now
and what doesn't.
So I know that if people canresponsibly use credit cards and
they're doing, and they're ableto plan it and you know, keep
track of it and reallyunderstand what's going on all

(43:36):
the power to you, because therecan be benefits to stuff like I
have credit cards, I just don'tdo like my daily spending on it
the way I do.
It is actually like I have abank account for like my fixed
expenses and then I have a bankaccount for my variable expenses
, so then that makes it reallyeasy for me.
When then I have a bank accountfor my variable expenses, so
then that makes it really easyfor me.
When I look at my bank accountfor my variable expenses, it's

(43:58):
like okay, this is how much Ihave for my gas, groceries, all
my incidental like coffees,things like that.
So that's my system that works.
I find a system that works forpeople.
My system might not work foreverybody, so like, let's I meet
you where you are.
What's what's working?
Again, that habit stacking,what?
If that's working for you,let's keep that as a tool and

(44:21):
keep going with it.
Yeah, so, and yeah with thebuying stuff like do you mean
kind of like, if they don't havethe money to buy stuff, like
that kind of scenario?

Shelby (44:34):
No, I just well.
First of all, just to finalizewhat you're saying yes, I think
everybody should find what theywant, because sometimes like
cash is great too, like totally.
When we were younger we reallyhad like not much Right, so we
worked on a cash system.

Linda (44:46):
Yes, love cash systems we had allowance.

Shelby (44:48):
You know, like every week we both got a certain
amount and that was for, likeour, I want to go to lunch with
my friend, or I'm going to go toStarbucks, or whatever.
Yeah, I think that's greatCause it does kind of help me
like, ooh, I can't go to lunchfour times, but I, you know, i-
have to manage it right A littlebit.
It's kind of like it's not playmoney it's obviously real money
but like it is a good system fora lot of people.

(45:09):
And sometimes an envelopesystem with cash might actually
be like this is your money forgroceries this month, that's it
Agreed.
Or entertainment, that's allyou have.
And we would say, like whenthis is out, we're done, like
that's all we have, so that thatI think that's great, finding a
system where it works.
And what I meant was is likemanagement of.
So, for example, even though Idon't necessarily know if I have

(45:33):
like a, I would qualify myselfas like a spending addict or
anything.
But we are extremely spendconscious, or we're always, you
know, and so we're always trying, we're very aware.
So I don't, I don't go instores, right, I don't.
I don't have any business beingin Target.
Anything I need in Target ifanything I need in Target, I can

(45:54):
buy on Amazon where I can see Ineed batteries.
Here's my batteries.
I don't need batteries, plustwo candles and six placemats
and oh, I need some face creamand oh, now let's look at the
bathing suits.
Like for me, like that's astrategy, and I want to talk to
my kids about like you don'tneed to be in those stores, like

(46:14):
I'd call me, like I need to goto tj maxx.
I'm like, no, you don't.
Yeah, yeah, it's like what areyou?
I mean, if you're saying I havean event this weekend and I
need to have a suit or a newdress, and I'm looking for the
specific dress with these shoesto go to this event and I need
to go to TJ Maxx or Ross orwherever you're going to look
for Macy's, great, you have aplan like I'm going to buy this

(46:36):
thing and like, right, be ableto stick to that thing.
I feel like that can work.
But don't you feel like?
I just feel like we do have tobuy things we got.
We consume, yeah, consume a lotof food and product.
Yeah, I was just thinking likehow do you help your people do
that without getting involved?

Linda (46:53):
Yeah, and I think, too like for myself, what I had to
do is I had to definitely putboundaries.
I think money boundaries arereally important.
So things like going intoTarget, like Target is some of
store and TJ Maxx home goodslike over in the States that
people talk to me aboutconstantly, it's just like I go

(47:14):
into Target for one thing andI'm getting all these things.
So like sometimes we do have tokind of like cut ourselves off
of those things and be like Ican't go into Target, like it's
just not safe for me in thereright now.
And there there was a time formyself I wouldn't go into like a
home goods type store here inCanada it's called HomeSense,
and I had to for myself.
I wouldn't go into like a homegoods type store here in Canada
it's called HomeSense, and I hadto say like I can't go into

(47:36):
Winners and HomeSense, likethat's my, that's my drug of
choice, like I go in there andit's so beautiful and all the
colors and you just like are, soyou just want to like be this
person that has a home thatlooks exactly like everything
that's in this store.
So yeah, sometimes we have tolike really again, it's that
choice, that planning and then.

(47:56):
So I think like meal like, notmeal delivery, but like grocery
delivery, is one of those thingsthat I definitely recommend, or
grocery pickup, so then youdon't have that fee attached to
that, because then you'reactually not going in there and
getting all the things right.
You're actually going in thereand like going online being
super intentional.

(48:17):
I'm big on meal planning and Icall it like menu, because meal
planning can feel triggering forpeople with disordered eating.
But like plan your menu for theweek, what are you gonna make?
Shop from your cupboards first,like what can you use in your
cupboards and then make a listand then do like a grocery
pickup and go and do it that wayand yeah, like kind of like
taking that pressure off.

(48:38):
Taking that pressure off ofgoing into that store and
grocery stores can be triggeringtoo.
Like I love like all the.
If there's new stuff, I I'mlike big on like good, healthy
eating and if there's new things, I'm like a kid in a candy
store in there.
Sometimes it's just like, yeah,I think meal deliverer, food
delivery, is really powerful forstuff like that.

Shelby (49:00):
Yeah, I do pick up and it's the best for multiple
reasons, exactly.
One of them, but for me it's alot of.
It's just convenience too, butI agree, because you are in
there and it's you can't help it.
You're like, wow, look at thesestrawberries, they look so
beautiful and you're like we'renot even going to use these,
especially with produce andthings like it's, it's waste.
You know, it's actually ourproduce, it's very expensive and

(49:21):
so if you waste that, that'sjust money.
You just throw it away, youknow.
And so right, like beingextremely intentional about meal
planning or whatever, whateverlanguage you like to use around
that, and preparation aroundlike when am I going to be we?
I did this when my kids werelittle, just because, for my own

(49:42):
sanity, um, because we were we.
They were all athletes and wewere out all the time.
My husband was out a lot and Iwould be like, okay, what nights
is everybody home for dinner?
Like, what night are we doing?
What night is a crock pot?
And I had it printed on like acalendar from work or whatever,
because that's what helped melike make sure I was like
managing all the things um,appropriately and try to reduce
our waste, because we do see thestuff in the store, we do want

(50:04):
to try it and it does look goodand and it probably is good, you
know, but, like, if you're notgoing to be home to consume the
products, like you're justthrowing that lot of dollars on
the road.
So, yeah, I love that and yeah,I just think a lot of it has to
become a very intentional andjust a lot of awareness.
Those stores, for me, like andagain, I'm not even a person

(50:26):
that, like, does feel like Ihave like a super big spending,
like addiction necessarily, butyou can, can't, you don't have
to like they're, just they're,they're on purpose, design them,
they're designed to pull youlike.
My mom says all the time like Iwould say like several times a
week she's like I'm going tohome goods.
I'm like mom, you don't need.
Like.
Like you don't need to go tohome, goods, there's nothing,

(50:46):
you don't need anything there.
You're 70 years old.
Like like your house isbeautiful, you're fine.
Like Anyway.
And it's not, and it's like alie to ourselves that we're like
we're just going to walk aroundand just like entice ourselves
with these things and and so Iguess in that same vein, I'm
like we have to find otherthings to fulfill that Right, so
like there's a lot of things wecan do with that, time For sure

(51:07):
.

Linda (51:07):
Yeah.

Shelby (51:15):
You can be outside, you know you could start, you could
do crafts at home, you could bereading, you could be, you know,
playing with your dogs ortalking to your friends or
whatever.
But I think sometimes it's thereal practical choices to find
replacements for theseactivities.
It's like smokers, you know,like we're in the car, like you
have to find another activitythat's going to replace that one
, so that you can maintainsobriety.

Linda (51:33):
So true, yeah, that's's a big, big point for sure.
Yeah, because a lot of timeswe're shopping at a board and
boredom, we're picking up ourphone and we're gonna go on
social media.
There's ads, like peoplepicking up their phones is like
a trigger these days and reallybeing intentional with our
phones, taking apps off,deleting credit cards from our
apps, like all of that stuff,because we get one ad on
Instagram or TikTok or anythingand we're down a hole that we're

(51:57):
not climbing out of veryquickly.
Yeah.

Shelby (52:00):
Linda, this has been so fabulous.
I know we probably talk a wholenother hour because this topic
is so big and so important, so Ireally appreciate your work and
your time here.
I know my audience is going tolove it.
How do they get ahold of you ifthey?

Linda (52:11):
want to is going to love it.
How do they get ahold of you ifthey want to?
Yeah, absolutely.
My website is lyndaparmarcom.
I have an Instagram,lyndaparmarmoneycoach, and also
my podcast is called FinancialSobriety School Wonderful.

Shelby (52:23):
I'll make sure I link to all those in the show notes
below and thank you so much foryour time.
It's just been awesome.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, awesome Thanks for havingme.
Yeah, thank you for joining mefor this week's episode of
Confident Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.

(52:43):
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about thesober freedom inner circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
Forward slash inner circle.
See you next time.