July 1, 2025 • 46 mins
Dr. Vanessa Klugman shares her powerful 10-year recovery story, revealing how perfectionism and people-pleasing led to prescription drug addiction that cost her medical license. Discover the evidence-based tools she used to transform her inner critic into self-compassion and build a thriving life coaching practice.
What You'll Learn
• Why perfectionism can be a dangerous form of self-sabotage
• The connection between achievement-based love and addiction
• Three powerful tools to quiet your inner critic: CBT, meditation, and self-compassion
• How to practice the life-changing "self-compassion break" technique
• Why struggling is part of the human experience (and how to embrace it)
• The difference between mindfulness meditation and other types
• How to rebuild your identity after losing everything
Key Takeaways
"Addiction is the solution, not the problem" - Vanessa explains how substances become coping mechanisms for deeper issues like perfectionism, poor boundaries, and people-pleasing.
The self-compassion break has three parts:
- Mindfulness - Notice you're struggling
- Self-kindness - Offer yourself compassion
- Common humanity - Remember you're not alone
Guest Bio
Dr. Vanessa Klugman is a physician turned recovery coach who specializes in helping people overcome self-sabotaging habits, including perfectionism, procrastination, and addiction. After losing her medical license due to prescription drug addiction, she rebuilt her life using evidence-based practices and now coaches clients nationwide.
Resources Mentioned
• Tara Brach - Radical Acceptance podcast and books
• Kristin Neff - Self-Compassion research and practices
• RAIN meditation technique
• 12-step recovery programs
• Mindfulness-based self-compassion courses
Connect with Dr. Vanessa Klugman
Website: resiliencerecoverycoaching.com
Instagram: @resiliencerecoverycoaching
Facebook: Resilience Recovery Coaching
Support the show
Oh, and by the way, if you didn’t know, my remote Neurofeedback Therapy program is up and running. Learn more here!
If you aren't part of the Confident Sober Women Facebook group, it's a great place to be. There are over a thousand other sober women there building lives they don't want to escape from. Come on over and join us.
And if you haven't read my memoir, grab a copy today and maybe a second one for a friend. There is so much hope in recovery, and I shared my story so raw and vulnerable so that others would know they aren't alone and that there is a way to live well, manage relationships, parent your kids, and have a healthy body, all while staying sober. Grab a copy of Recovering in Recovery: The Life-Changing Joy of Sobriety wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hey there, sober ladies, Thanks for joining
me today for the ConfidentSober Women podcast.
I'm so excited today to sharemy conversation with Vanessa
Klugman.
She is a physician and a womanin long-term recovery and she's
also a coach for people who wantto change their thinking
(00:20):
patterns.
She established a practicecalled Resilience Recovery and
she focuses on positivepsychology and using her work
both as a physician and hereducation, as well as in her
recovery, to help people changetheir lives and reflect their
unique strengths and values.
(00:40):
Our conversation was areflection of that.
We talked a lot about ourinternal thinking patterns, both
when we were in activeaddiction and now as recovered
women, and what we did to changethat.
She shared in a very personaland intimate way her story it's
pretty dramatic, like a lot ofus have and also what she has
(01:03):
been doing since then to rewritethat story, to change those
thinking patterns, to combat theperfectionism which I know, as
women, so many of us strugglewith.
So I want you to grab that bigglass of water and or your
favorite mocktail and enjoy thisconversation with Vanessa.
If you like what you hear, makesure you scroll down on your
(01:25):
platform, Make sure you reviewand rate the podcast.
It does help for other women tofind us and build our Confident
Sober Women community.
Have a great day.
(01:51):
Hello and welcome to theConfident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, Shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common, and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection, so we know we are no
longer alone.
In this podcast, you will hearreal life talk about building
(02:13):
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk.
Hey, it's me, Shelby.
Have you ever wondered what'sreally happening in your brain
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(02:35):
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Speaker 2 (03:28):
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Speaker 1 (03:36):
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change.
Well, hey there, Vanessa.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women podcast.
(03:56):
I'm so glad that you're here,and I know my audience is going
to love enjoying thisconversation and all the things
that you have to offer.
So I'm gonna turn the mic overto you.
Let you share a little bit moreabout your story, and then
we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, thanks so much for having me.
I'm pretty.
One of my missions is reducingstigma around addiction, so this
is one of the ways I get to dothat by telling my story.
So my story I'm going to trynot to go back to too many
details.
I'm a physician and I came intorecovery 10 years ago.
My anniversary was this weekand that was June of 2015.
(04:41):
And I always say I came intorecovery from an unlivable life
because I was buying intobeliefs that did not serve me,
and my beliefs really were thatI was only as worthy as how much
I accomplished and how much Idid for everyone around me, and
that led me to living on thishamster wheel where I was
constantly pushing myself,proving myself, perfecting
(05:01):
myself, while I never felt likeI was good enough or I was doing
enough, and that led that ledto pretty severe generalized
anxiety.
So I ended up having a panicattack when I was about 39.
And even though I was a doctor,I was on the couch, my heart
(05:21):
was racing and I thought I wasdying, and I was diagnosed with
generalized anxiety then andstarted on medications for
anxiety.
But looking back on it now Ican see that that anxiety was a
result of the unbelievably highexpectations I had on myself.
To be a perfect person.
I had to be the perfect mother,the perfect wife, the perfect
(05:44):
daughter, the perfect friend,the perfect doctor, and it was
just too much and unsustainable.
So for a number of years I justwould be.
You know, I was switched fromone anxiety medication to
another anxiety medication and anumber of years after that I
broke my arm and was prescribedVicodin and I immediately got a
(06:07):
tremendous sense of relief fromthe anxiety.
So the Vicodin actually workedmore for me for anxiety than it
did for pain, and I realizedthat I was using it because I
had a frozen shoulder.
And so I was given manyprescriptions for a lot of
Vicodin and I realized, whoa, Ihave an addiction.
I'm using this not for the pain, but I'm using this for anxiety
(06:29):
relief and helping me cope withlife.
So I told my husband I stoppedusing the Vicodin, I went
through a physical withdrawaland I decided that was it.
I'm done, I'm never going toget addicted again.
But about six years later theanxiety started increasing
tremendously.
I was I think it was, you knowtaking care of aging parents.
(06:49):
My job as a physician hadbecome very, very difficult with
the electronic medical recordsand insurance companies and the
demands on physicians.
That was so different than thecareer I entered.
So I was getting burnt out atwork.
My oldest two daughters were incollege and I was missing them
so much and I was trying to weanmyself off one of my anxiety
(07:14):
medications that I had heard hadside effects and it ended up
that I had this like hugeescalation in anxiety and was
prescribed Vicodin again at thatparticular point for implants
that I had in my mouth and ofcourse it gave me that immediate
relief in the anxiety.
But I had no way to get it atthat point because they only
(07:36):
gave me 20 pills and I had in mymind that I really needed
Vicodin to relieve my anxiety.
So I went outside of my ethicalvalues and I took Vicodin out
of a pill bottle in a patient'shome that I visited.
I used to do home visits and itturned out that her son was a
DEA agent and they suspected Iwas doing this and so after I,
(08:01):
after about a year, they set upa sting and I visited her house
and they put the bike on thekitchen table instead of the
bathroom.
I took some pills out of them.
I left the apartment and I wassurrounded by DA agents, so in
that moment the pedestal ofperfection I placed myself on
(08:21):
came crashing down.
No one in my life had thefaintest clue that this is what
I was doing.
People knew I was strugglingwith anxiety, but they didn't
know that this was what wasgoing on, and so it was
devastating.
It was the most traumatic day ofmy life, and I really thought I
was going to be able to go backto practice medicine the next
(08:44):
week, which was I was intremendous denial.
My medical license wassuspended.
I went into our patienttreatment program, entering the
program thinking I wasn't anaddict, and leaving the program
understanding that I wasn't.
I was an addict.
I had had.
I wasn't using tremendousnumbers of the pills, but it was
(09:07):
the fact that I was using themdespite adverse consequences,
and using them to cope with life, um, and not not face life on
its own terms, um.
And so I left that treatmentprogram, really unsure of what I
was going to do.
Right, I had been a doctor mywhole life.
(09:28):
It had been part of my identity.
I decided I was going to be adoctor when I was six, and so
this was like a huge void in mylife and I had to figure out
what was my way forward.
What was I going to do?
So at that point I really threwmyself into trying to figure
out ways to cope with anxietythat were not medication based,
(09:49):
and I found mindfulness.
I joined a mindfulness summitand I learned about the practice
of meditation and I was like,oh, this is good because I'm all
about science.
And I learned aboutneuroplasticity and I was like,
wow, we can change our brains.
That's incredible.
I didn't know we could changeour brains when we were adults.
(10:09):
Okay, I'm going to trymeditation.
And I sat in meditation and Ipracticed meditating and I saw
how I had always been runningaway from the present moment,
how I could not sit still in themoment.
I also saw how my emotions wereconstantly changing, that I
didn't have to change them, butthat they changed by themselves.
(10:31):
So I learned very valuablelessons from that and then, as
part of it, being a physician inrecovery, I was required to
attend 12-step programs.
So I attended that.
That was part of my recoveryfor a couple of years until I at
some point made a decision thatI was not going to go back to
practice medicine and I wasgoing to become a, I wanted to
(10:54):
make meaning out of what hadhappened to me.
So I trained as a life coachwith a specialty in recovery and
started my own coachingpractice.
At that point, about eight yearsago, I would say like in terms
of recovery there's.
So I truly believe recovery is,you know, I think actually
addiction is the solution, notthe problem, right, and so for
(11:18):
sustained recovery, I think wehave to really identify what are
the problems and how do we?
And then usually many of them,and for me I would say
perfectionism, a really loudinner critic, really poor
ability to set boundaries, whichcame at people pleasing Like
these were the problems that Ihad to address in my recovery,
(11:41):
and I went about it in manydifferent ways.
You know, as I did themindfulness, I learned
self-compassion, I learnedinternal family systems, how to
work with various parts ofourselves and approach various
parts of ourselves.
I developed, I had, I createdmy own group of physicians that
(12:02):
meet on Sunday evenings who arein recovery.
So community, I think, is areally important part of
recovery too.
I got a certificate in positivepsychology because I wanted to
learn about what helps peopleflourish, and so I did that and
I learned about, you know,focusing on our strengths and
our values, and so there havebeen many, many facets to my
(12:23):
recovery.
So that's me in a nutshell, myrecovery in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Thank you so much for sharing all that.
And wow, what a story.
You know sometimes, I know, youknow each of us has our own
stories in there.
A big deal to us.
But sometimes when we sharethem and I know I do, I know I
forget sometimes, like the drama, right, that other people
experience when they're hearingour stories.
(12:49):
And so that is a lot, I mean,and and such a big consequence
to your lifestyle, to yourlivelihood.
You know your profession because, as a direct result of your
addiction, I had a similarexperience as well, not quite as
much, but similar, and it's abig deal, you know.
And then at the time, we, youknow, because we're sucked into
our own self centered addictionand we don't, we don't know that
(13:11):
, we don't see it, you know, wedon't, I don't know about you,
but you know I could spend a lotof my time when I was in the
middle of that justifying youknow why I wasn't doing
something wrong or why I didn'thave a problem.
And you know, watching thosekinds of things and hearing that
years later is so helpful, Ithink, because you're like wow,
that is so far removed from likereality, right?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
Yeah.
I think I was well when I wascaught in that.
I was in complete denial, right.
I didn't think I had a problemat all.
I thought I was just copingwith life and I was just
manipulating life to cope withit.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, and also, you know I'm not hurting anybody
else, I'm just doing my thingLike it's fine, I'm still doing
my work, I'm raising my kids,and you know we are the best at
intellectualizing andrationalizing all of these
things and we're mastermanipulators, you know.
And we just don't see any ofthat when we're in active
addiction.
It takes all of that away fromus and we also don't have a
(14:15):
conscience.
You know, I know I didn't.
And so when I got, you know,when I got sober for a long
after, for a little while, youknow that comes back and it's
such a, it's such a weird and anamazing blessing in the
beginning, when you're like,whoa, I had a conscience and
something would happen, and I'dbe like, well, I can't, I can't
do that, or I can't walk out ofthe store without paying for
that.
Or, you know, I don't even.
You know, like one time I wentto BJ's and I was unloading my
(14:35):
car and you know, I don't knowif you have those big stores in
your area, but you just takeeverything and put it in your
car and I was unloading the cartand there was something in
there that I hadn't paid for andI was like, oh gosh, I didn't,
it was like a bottle ofconditioner thing.
And I think in my other day Iwould have just been like well,
whatever you know, like that'stheir fault, but like I couldn't
do it, like I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, fundamentally changes.
Yeah yeah, the honesty is sodifferent, like the ability you
just learn and that I learnedvery much from the 12-step
program, I would say, is theimportance of honesty and, yeah,
it just feels like you're outof integrity when you're lying
or doing something.
Once you come into recovery.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I just, and sometimes I catch myself in some things
today that are simple.
I'm not like a quote unquote,like rule follower by nature.
I think you know most of usprobably aren't, but that's just
not my general way.
But you know, there are certainthings that now I'm just like
you know, like I run my business, and certain things that come
up and I'll be like, oh my gosh,I, you know, and even my
(15:42):
husband, who's very much a rulesfollower and like very risk
averse as an accountant, like,and he'll be like it's fine,
like you don't have to do, andI'm like I can't, I can't, what
if someone comes after me, youknow the irs or something, I'm
like, okay, girl, I think it's a, it's a testimony to the, the
change, the psychic change thathappens in our thinking when we
(16:02):
do this work, when we do thework right.
But then, which is what we hear?
I got sober in 12 step as well.
That's all we had back in thewhen I got sober, and it worked
for me, it works for millions ofother people and and it doesn't
have to be the only way Ialways say, you know, we need a
layered approach.
You know, I think AA and NA areperfect for the beginning,
because we all need, you know,sober places to do sober things
(16:24):
with sober people, because mostof us have none of that in our
lives, especially in a countrythat you know worships alcohol
and drugs.
We need to have that fellowship.
But then, you know, we layer onthe therapy and Reiki and
acupuncture and whatever else.
You know, nutrition, all thesethings.
So you know you talked about afew things that I think are
(16:44):
super important.
It's just that kind ofhighlighting those complexities
of life.
You know you shared about yourdaughters at college.
I have two daughters in collegeas well, and one's still here,
one's on, and it's very, verytaxing.
I miss them still all the time.
It's been almost three years,you know, and I just don't.
It hasn't gotten easier for me,you know.
And then you're trying tomaintain a marriage and you're
(17:06):
trying to you know work and dothe things and you're trying to
you know, work and do the things, and it does take a real toll.
I feel like and that soundslike that's what happened with
you like started that stinkingthinking for you, huh.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think I mean for me, I think it was
just the mostly the pressure ofhaving to do all of it perfectly
right, it wasn't.
It was I, these two daughtersin college, and I need to be a
perfect mother to them and Ineed to be a perfect daughter.
So there was a lot going onwith my parents aging and trying
(17:38):
to run there and take care ofthem and not say no to anything.
And, you know, give give myphone number to patients so that
they could get a hold of me ifthey needed to know boundary
setting and so the prep.
It was not like I always say,it was not a livable life, it
was an unlivable life.
You can't live life saying yesto everything and trying to be
(18:02):
perfect.
It's just impossible.
And it became, and the only wayI coped was through substances,
right, and that's not a way tolive a life.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And as you started to explore, in your recovery work
and those letters we just talkedabout, as you started to get
into it, were you able topinpoint some areas of your life
and you can share as muchdetail as you want or as little
where that perfectionism came,came from.
Do you know where the I'm notgood enough started?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
yeah, yeah, I mean, I have loving parents, of course,
but, um, with very highexpectations.
So, um, my dad's a physician aswell, and my grandfather was,
and my father is, and I adorehim.
But he and my mother bothexpected a lot of academic
(18:55):
success and I learned prettyearly on that that in order to
get their approval, I needed toaccomplish and do really well.
And the more I did well, themore approval I got, the more it
fit my ego that, okay, I'mdoing what I need to be doing.
And the more I did well, themore approval I got, the more it
fit my ego that, okay, I'mdoing what I need to be doing
and this is working and I justneed to keep doing it at all
(19:18):
expenses, right, and so.
And then I extended that fromacademics to just like every
part of my life instead of onlyacademics.
Now, if it works there, maybeit'll also work in relationships
.
Only academics, now, if itworks there, maybe it'll also
work in relationships.
Okay, now I need to be like theperson everyone loves.
How do I do that?
I do everything they want andthen that's, and so that the not
(19:40):
good enough, I think came fromthat place yeah, I see that a
lot in my practice as well, withachievement-based love is what
I kind of call it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know people who and for really no fault of
theirs.
The parents, you know,sometimes, especially in the
older generations, but reallyanywhere is they don't have the
emotional wherewithal, reallythe emotional intelligence to be
able to give.
Those older generations didn'thave that right.
So the only way they knew howto, maybe and it didn't mean
(20:13):
they didn't feel love or didn'tknow deep love for their
children or each other, but theexpression of it wasn't modeled
for them.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
It wasn't talked about and it was very
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It was not normalized , and so then it only could come
out in ways like oh, you'rethis great student, or maybe
you're this incredible athlete,or you got this great job, or
you make all this you know like.
And so suddenly now they, theyhave a built in way of of
expressing and showing that loveand they think they're doing a
good thing, right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it becomes about
what you accomplish, not whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And that's a really tough identity to break for
people.
And even in kids, like when youknow, and some of these kids I
have one, maybe two, probablyjust one of them who is very who
was like that by herself.
She was, she's just alreadylike that and I'm like we didn't
really do that, I didn't.
(21:09):
I mean I'm not like that andI'm like we didn't really do
that.
I didn't.
I mean I'm not like that.
I don't have get straight A's,I never was and we don't really
have those kinds of expectations, but she like had that for
herself.
And so I remember kind of inmiddle school they were in a
very small school like one ofthe teachers really made it like
her mission, I think, to helpthese kids sever their identity
(21:32):
coming from grades, you know,and from that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And it was.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It was a painful.
I think she in purpose gave hera B.
Frankly, in one of the classeslike because, she needed to have
that experience and to be ableto break and I was kind of
grateful for it because we wereable to work with her on it and
stuff.
But you know it's it's aninteresting thing how we are all
built.
Personality stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But you know it's it's an interesting thing how we
are all built personality.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , yeah, so gosh.
So then you were, you know,kind of coming up and then you
did do the things, you know, youdid become a doctor, you did
have a great success.
You know, outwardly, and on theinside, you know, the thoughts
were just really raging.
You know, it sounds like youwere really running your life
where you were measuringeverything against something
else.
You know, comparing out as wesay to be true.
(22:16):
How was that in your personallife?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
in terms of my relationships with my work or
school.
Yeah, I always felt like I wasless than you know.
I was always like, comparingmyself to others, oh, that
person has more friends than Ihave.
I need more friends.
I'm not, you know.
So I always felt like and Ithink part of that came from the
fact that I I immigrated to theUnited States when I was 15
(22:43):
from South Africa, so I was bornin South Africa, and coming to
a new country in high school isso traumatic and I had an accent
and I didn't fit in, and sothis feeling of like I'm not
good enough, that was reinforcedat that time too.
Like I don't fit in, there'ssomething wrong with me, there's
something different about me um, I'm, you know, and so I was
(23:08):
always comparing to others.
Like that person has morefriends, that person has a
better house, that person, youknow, like that comparisonitis
going on the whole time and thatfeeling of not being good
enough just being reinforcedover and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Right, and it's it's death by comparison, right, you
know, because individuals, youknow, the same, even if we're
similar, our outsides to someoneelse's insides or vice versa,
is just always going to lead todysfunction.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, I think there was that inner critical voice
that was just beating me up allthe time and if anyone looked at
my life they would say, oh mygosh, look at her.
She's got the husband, thethree kids, the house, the job,
the doctor, she's got theperfect life right.
But internally I was dying.
I was like so unhappy and soanxious and so stressed out.
(24:06):
But I was able to to like hidethat so well Externally, I think
we're experts at that, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So one of the things that I know is true for myself
and then I hear, and and most ofthe people that I talked to who
have long-term recovery, and soI ask a lot is you know, after
we get sober for a little whileusually about a year or so we
get into that kind of one tofive year range.
I do believe there's this kindof awakening that starts
happening and we kind of webegin to wake up to the
(24:38):
opportunities and possibilitiesof life, being this now sober
person, things we could havenever imagined before.
You know, we're kind of stillbaby, new, sober women.
But you know, now suddenly it'slike, oh wow, I could, you know
, advance my career, or I couldstart a family, or I could get
divorced, or you know, there'sall these things that kind of
come up and now suddenly they'reavailable to us.
(24:59):
I'm not sure if you had thatsame experience, but if you can
relate to that, I'd be curiousto hear what that was like for
you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, in some ways I do.
I do relate to that.
I think for me it was more inthe spiritual perspective that
life changed so much.
I think I'd always had a sensethat there was something I
didn't get about life right,like that I was doing it wrong
in some way, or there wassomething I wasn't quite
figuring out.
And when I came into recovery Ireally threw myself into like
(25:32):
spiritual practices and spirit,trying to understand life on a
greater, from a greaterperspective.
Like why are we here?
What's this all about?
We're not you know what.
So I actually what reallyresonated for me?
I learned about like I don'tknow if you've heard of Tara
Brock and like RadicalAcceptance and True Refuge and
(25:55):
she's written a number of booksand she has a wonderful podcast
and she's a Buddhistpsychotherapist and I found her
my first summer of recovery andI listened to every single
podcast and I took notes on themand they resonated.
It was really about its idea ofit's the radical acceptance
that you hear of in the 12 stepprogram as well.
(26:15):
But it was this concept of likethere's just life as it is,
there's and there's, being withreality as it shows up and not
fighting it and not saying no,it shouldn't be this way, even
though it may not be what wewant and it may be very
uncomfortable, but there is likean acceptance of reality as it
(26:36):
is that gives you a tremendoussense of peace.
And so, for me, what reallystarted to fundamentally shift
in recovery was going from thatplace of fighting life and
manipulating life andcontrolling life to be the way I
wanted to be, to being from aplace of true acceptance, just
(26:58):
being with reality as it showedup moment to moment, being with
reality as it showed up momentto moment, and that
fundamentally changed, like howI showed up in the world Right
and who, how I felt about myselfand the other people.
So I wouldn't say it was for melike a big career change,
although there was a huge careerchange, but that wasn't the big
(27:18):
change for me.
The change was more thespiritual, like understanding of
life, and as I delved into that, I went into more spiritual
practices and the understandingof Buddhism and the practices of
Buddhism Not that I'm aBuddhist, but just those
practices have been so helpfulto me and some of the
meditations that Tara Brachshares around, like the RAIN
(27:43):
meditation, recognizing where weare, allowing the emotions to
be there investigating them andthen just nurturing whatever we
need in the moment.
And I practice that over andover and shared it with my
clients, and people love thatmeditation and it's just such a
helpful thing that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
So I'm curious, I love that you kind of honed in
on that spiritual element andobviously that is a part of the
12 step recovery programs and Ireally do believe that needs to
be a part of all of ourrecoveries, because we do need
to come to terms with the factthat it's, you know, the world
really doesn't revolve around usand that we don't really have
control over really much ofanything.
(28:26):
And I think that can only comefrom understanding that there is
something outside of ourselvesand what you choose to call that
or believe in is, you know,kind of very personal and unique
to you.
But it is, I think it'snecessary, you know, to get to
kind of more towardsactualization, right, you know,
in Maslow's hierarchy and reallydevelopment into that emotional
(28:47):
sobriety realm.
But I'm curious how that workedfor you in the changing of your
thought patterns, cause Ireally want to kind of get into
now, like, okay, what did you doLike?
I know you use 12 step.
Most people are probablyfamiliar with that.
Even if you didn't use them,you probably have some
understanding about what thatprocess is like.
But for you, like, how did youattack those thoughts like and
(29:08):
really change them?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
yeah, yeah.
So, uh, those inner criticalthoughts you're not good enough,
you're not doing enough, youshould be doing more.
I there were a couple of waysthat I approached it.
I would say, actually, I'mthinking of three different
kinds of ways, so, and I'm allabout figuring out how to
(29:30):
approach things in a verylogical, like evidence-based way
.
So number one was CBT, right,cognitive behavioral therapy,
the idea that everything I thinkis not true.
Thoughts aren't facts.
Right, so why am I believingeverything that my brain, my
mind, is just putting out there?
So I started getting a littlebit of distance from my thoughts
(29:53):
.
Oh, maybe that thought isn'ttrue.
Do I know it's?
I start challenging it.
Is that 100% true?
How do I know it's 100% true?
How do I feel when I believethat thought?
And what would be a thoughtthat would be more empowering?
So there was that CBT approach.
So that was one one bucket thatI put it in.
The second bucket was definitelymeditation helped, right?
(30:14):
So I, in meditation, the wholegoal is to just change your
relationship with your thoughts.
Don't buy into every thought.
Just see thoughts as likesoundbites.
They just pop into our brains,we repeat them.
We have like 80,000 thoughts aday and we keep repeating them
over and over and over, like 90%of the same thoughts right Over
(30:34):
and over and over.
They're just soundbites,they're just things that pop
into my brain and I just don't.
I didn't buy into them as much.
In meditation I just noticed oh, there goes a thought, there
goes a thought.
So there was that.
And then the third thing that Ithink that was really
tremendously beneficial was whenI came across the work of
Kristen Neff and self-compassion.
(30:55):
So she has done a lot of workon self-compassion and I love
evidence-based.
So she's a and she's ascientist and she has done
studies and she's shown thatpeople who score higher on
self-compassion have lessdepression, less anxiety, more
resilience, recover from traumafaster.
(31:17):
So I was like whoa, this is astudy, I need to learn about
this.
I need, I want to find out moreabout self-compassion and as I
learned about it, I need tolearn about this.
I want to find out more aboutself-compassion and as I learned
about it, I took the course inself-compassion
mindfulness-basedself-compassion and I learned
the self-compassion break, whichis a really easy thing you can
do during the day and it'sreally.
(31:38):
There are three parts to it,right?
So the first part ismindfulness noticing you're
struggling.
Often we are caught in thestruggle and we don't even have
any separation.
So, like whoa, this really ispainful.
I'm struggling right now.
This hurts, whatever it is,whether it's an argument with a
friend, whether it's a feelinglike you failed at something or
(32:00):
you made a mistake this hurts,this is painful.
The second part of theself-compassion break is,
instead of criticizing ourselves, become kind to ourselves.
So it's self-kindness.
So it's like in that moment,what can I do?
How can I put a hand on myheart, maybe, and just say I'm
here for you, it's okay, I'vegot you, like something kind.
(32:22):
And then the third part of theself-compassion break is common
humanity, which is the idea thatI'm not alone in this.
Struggling is a part of life.
We all make mistakes.
It doesn't mean that you knowwe're like.
That is all just a normal partof the human experience making
mistakes, having arguments,difficulties, challenges.
(32:44):
So my struggle is like thisright now and your struggle is
like that.
But we all struggle.
We're not alone, because oftenwhen we're struggling, we become
very self absorbed and we startthinking we're in this alone,
right.
We become very, very secludedand isolated.
So it's easy.
It's just three things.
Oh wow, this hurts.
How can I be kind, how can I bekind to myself?
(33:07):
And oh, struggling, suffering,it's a part of life and it takes
us out of that.
So that's the self compassionbreak, and I started practicing
that a lot in my life and as Idid that, that voice started
getting quieter and thesupportive voice started getting
louder and became the moredominant voice and really I
don't struggle so much I meanreally rarely with that inner
(33:30):
critical voice.
It'll come up sometimes, I'llnotice it, of course, and and I
just I'm able to kind of relateto it'll come up sometimes, I'll
notice it, of course, and Ijust I'm able to kind of relate
to it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I love that so much that self-compassion break is
such a great tangible tool,right, so that's something that
we can really hang on to Like.
You could put that in your kindof notes file in your phone.
You could set little timers tosay self compassion break and
kind of have your little kind ofinstructions.
Sometimes in the beginning, whenwe're trying something new, we
(34:03):
really do need, you know,instructions.
You know, or protocol, how do Ido we can get tripped up on the
like, well, I don't know how toeven meditation, you know, I
don't know how to do that.
Or you know prayer, how do I dothat?
How do I talk to, you know, god, or whatever, like you know.
Okay, so just write down a fewsteps and yeah, I kind of liken
it almost to to like aninventory.
I I talk a lot about like athought inventory, you know,
(34:24):
kind of, and and I like how youalso talked about, uh, the
noticing which I guess ismindset, uh, mindfulness.
You know, interchangeably.
I always say you know likenoticing, like you're like what
is going on right now, like whatis what is happening like right
now, especially if you're inlike a situation where you uh,
maybe you just lashed out atsomebody or you feel you're
(34:44):
feeling that kind of stick toyour stomach or nervous or
anxiety coming up.
You know like you're gettingthe physical symptoms.
Our bodies are such greatindicators and they're usually
first before when we are doingthis work, when we're under
developed emotionally, the bodyis first, and so, as we are
learning, you can use your bodyas a tool to help you understand
.
Like there is a something,there's something happening, and
(35:06):
then it's up to us to use ouryou know, our frontal lobes, our
cognitive brains, to say whatis going on.
Like, what am I afraid of what?
If the situation right now isbothering me?
You know, asking yourselfreally good questions, I think,
is part of self-compassion, andthen you have to drill down.
This is self-awareness, I think,self-awareness which most
people are not truly veryself-aware I think it's 70, I
(35:28):
think Trisha Urich does the.
She's the big researcher onself-awareness and she said,
like 70% of people are notself-aware, which I get.
That and people don't like this.
We don't like to do this.
Because when you're like, well,what am I afraid of?
Oh, I'm not afraid of anything.
He just came at me, blah, blah,blah, and you're like, oh, no,
(35:48):
no, really ask yourself well,what am I afraid of?
Well, I don't like, I'm afraidthat I'll get upset.
Well, and you're like, oh, okay, well, there's your core issue
right now.
You believe that you're weak,you know, or maybe your security
is being threatened you won'tbe loved.
I mean so you can get to thoselike core negative thoughts
while you're working throughthis stuff by asking super great
questions from using your bodyin that self compassion break.
(36:09):
I mean, that's why we, that'swhy these influencers on on
Instagram and people like us aretalking about these things.
It's not just because we wantclicks and likes and whatever.
It's real stuff, like youmentioned.
It's like real science.
It's not just pleasantry, youknow, it's like a real thing.
And then the meditation piece,I think, is really powerful too,
and sometimes people gettripped up, including myself,
(36:31):
people who are, you know, haveadult ADHD.
I mean, I'm just more of a busyperson, busy body and mind, and
so it's sometimes hard.
I remember when I was I wasn'tearly, early, but I was newer,
probably in that first 10 yearseven I used to do acupuncture
kind of regularly.
I started to layer on a lot ofcomplimentary kind of medicine
(36:54):
modalities.
After I did a lot of good stepwork and she told me I should
take yoga and I was like I can'ttake yoga Because I can't, I
can't stay in the room, I can'tsit in the room for that long.
I couldn't stand it, I couldn't.
There's no clock in there, Icouldn't sit in there for 60
minutes, and so which is themost bizarre thing ever
(37:14):
Sometimes when I hear myself saythat, but that's where I was, I
just couldn't do it.
And so she's like that's why youneed to take the yoga, and I'm
like I don't want to do it andso I had.
I did start doing it and it wasextremely helpful.
It was very uncomfortable andchallenging but, boy, after I
did practice that for weeks,months, years this is not
something that happened quicklyfor me I was able to start to
(37:40):
utilize that as a verymeditative experience and it
became much more of a spiritualslash meditative experience for
me than it was a physicalexperience.
The physical stuff for me waslike a bonus.
Like I was like, oh cool, I'mgetting a little bit of a
workout too, but mostly I wentthere for a spiritual connection
and just to be able to learnhow to be present a spiritual
connection and just to be ableto learn how to be present.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, I relate so much to that.
I mean I I could not sit stilland I could not be with myself.
Before I came into recovery Iwas.
I think I was running away frommyself all the time and it is
astonishing to me that now I'mable, I enjoy my own company.
I like being alone and beingquiet and being with myself and
(38:20):
I really do attribute a lot ofthat to these practices.
Right, and the meditation for me, oh my gosh, sitting still in
meditation with my mind racingand thoughts coming and going,
and my meditation teacher wouldjust say it doesn't matter how
many thoughts you have, it's allabout the practice of just how
(38:42):
you relate to the thoughts.
So it's sitting with.
Sitting in meditation is aboutjust being curious and
compassionate to whatever showsup.
And that was like oh, okay, allI need to do is sit here and be
kind to my mind as it racesfrom thought to thought
sometimes unpleasant thoughts,sometimes pleasant thoughts and
(39:04):
just bring it back to the breath.
It's not about blissing out orgetting rid of thoughts or
clearing my mind of all thoughts.
That's not what I do inmeditation.
That's some types of meditation, but that's not mindfulness
meditation.
So when I learned that I waslike, okay, I don't need to get
rid of thoughts, then I'm doingfine, like this is okay, I just
(39:26):
need to sit here and be kind andcurious about whatever shows up
.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's such an important distinction, because
what we just said, right,because we're all different,
we're all differentpersonalities, and so being able
to find a good match, versuseliminating an entire modality
because you're like, well, Ican't do that.
Instead of saying, well, maybethere's another type, maybe
there's a type of meditation, Iwant to put you on the spot here
for a second and, if you'rewilling, I'm just curious if you
(39:51):
could just maybe do like a,like a one minute kind of act
out.
What does that look like?
Like when you're sitting thereand that's happening, like just
pretend, like for like oneminute, really, you're just in
the meditation experience.
I would like to hear, can youset it up for us, like where are
you, what's happening, whattime of day, um, how long is it?
And then, when the thoughtstarts coming in, what are you
(40:12):
doing?
I just want to see if I gotthis.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
So usually I meditate .
I meditate every day.
I meditate for about 15 to 20minutes, so not a huge amount of
time.
The times are different and Iusually do it just sitting in my
office and because I have abeautiful view, but I do close
my eyes.
I look outside and then I closemy eyes and I just, I usually
(40:35):
just feel my feet on the groundand feel a connection of my feet
with the earth and feel how theearth is supporting me in the
moment.
And then I bring my attention upmy body and eventually to my
breath and I just kind of noticethe waves of the breath.
And as I'm noticing the waves ofthe breath, my mind might go of
(40:57):
the breath.
And as I'm noticing the wavesof the breath, my mind might go,
oh, I need to, like, cookdinner later or I need to call
so and so, and I just, sometimesI'll just go label it like, oh,
thinking, and then come back tothe breath.
Sometimes it will be like, oh,I wonder if my son is going to
get sick because he was at thatparty last night, and I'll be
like, oh, worrying.
And then I just bring it backto the breath and then I'll
(41:19):
breathe a few more times andthen something else might pop
into my mind and I might getcaught up in it for a while.
I go in the whole story, youknow, remembering an event that
occurred, and then I'll just belike, oh, it's like waking up,
you know, I wake up to it andI'm like, oh, caught in thinking
, and just come back to thebreath and that's how I meditate
(41:41):
.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Thank you so much.
That was helpful Because I waseven listening to you talk about
how you can show selfcompassion to yourself and that,
and I was.
I understand the concept in thewords, but I was.
I was struggling a tiny bit tojust kind of figure out like, oh
, what does this actually looklike?
And that makes total sense.
And when you said be kind toyour mind, I really liked that
because it rhymes and it's easyto remember.
(42:07):
It's so true and and those arethe kinds of phrases or or you
know, instagram plaques rightthat we'll see, we would see
back in our day, or new peoplekind of see, and they'll be like
that's so stupid, like I'm notgoing to do that, like who does
that, whatever.
And then, but once you start tolearn and see how you are being
so kind of mean to yourself,you know you're just being like
(42:29):
a mean friend, you know a mean,mean girl to yourself.
It's easier than to be like, oh, wow, okay.
Well, the reverse of that is tostart to show compassion to
yourself, start to have kindness, and I think there's a lot of
acceptance work that comes withthis too.
One of the things that I think Iwas, I was thinking about when
you were sharing something alongthe way was you know when
(42:52):
things go on?
I used to.
I have a very similar thoughtpattern to you and it was pretty
ingrained and really, reallytough to like undo.
And also I live with otherpeople and around other people
who were sort of supportive ofthat, and so it was hard to kind
of undo that, especially whenthere's criticism coming at you
and like there's other thingsand so, as you're learning and
growing and becoming more awareof things and like healing
(43:15):
yourself, those things are stillhappening around you, right,
and you might get that sort ofcriticism or, you know, make
mistakes or whatever.
And so I had to really learnhow to adjust my language, and I
guess maybe that's CBT work toois just sort of like when
somebody wants to say, like Ican't believe you forgot that
you know picture day form orwhatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
(43:35):
And I'm like you know I wasable to start to learn.
Took me a very long time to say, yeah, I did forget that
picture day form and that reallystinks.
But you know, I did like athousand things really well
today you know, I just did thatone thing wrong so instead of
ruminating on the mistake andlike making that the highlight
of the whole day or the whole,my whole life.
(43:56):
I could, I was able to just putit in its place, you know
instead.
I was able to start to say youknow, I got three kids dressed
and ready, we were on time forschool, I fed them, we were, we
were, we had a good time when wedid this and we did this.
And you know, I, I, you know.
And then, yes, there was thismistake, but that doesn't have
to, that doesn't discount allthe other things that went
really well.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, I mean, we have such a negative at worst.
Our brains just have anegativity bias, right, so we
remember all the mistakes.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So it's hard work to rewire all of that?
Yeah, but it is possible andthat's one of the beautiful
about neuroscience right now,and I love the last 10 years or
so with the brain research.
I'm an EMDR therapist, so it isEMDR is a modality that I use
every single day.
I also have a remoteneurofeedback program which is
hardwires the brain usingoperant conditioning, which
(44:44):
literally does.
Both of those modalities arehealing the brain in two
different ways but very similarand rewriting our stories and
rewriting our thinking patternsfor good, right Like they're not
.
It doesn't go back, it's notfor a temporary fix, it's.
These are real, lastingmodalities that people can
access and I would encourage youto do that.
If you're not, if you haven'tdone so, I would love for you to
(45:06):
tell us a little bit more aboutwhere we can find you If
somebody wants to reach out andlearn a little bit more about
what you're you're're doing,what kind of services you
provide and where you like tohang out yeah, so you can find
me on my.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
You can look me up on my website, which is resilience
recovery coachingcom.
Um.
I have an instagram page aswell under the same name
resilience recovery coaching andfacebook page, um, and I coach
really people from all over thecountry.
So I do zoom coaching, coaching, and I have an office in
Chicago, in Illinois, in my home, and I just really love
(45:44):
coaching.
You know anybody, women or men,who are interested in letting
go of self sabotaging habits andand live according to their
values, and so, for me,self-sabotaging habits are not
just over drinking, it's alsoperfectionism is a habit, and
procrastination and that innercritical voice buying into it is
also a habit.
(46:04):
So I love working with all ofthose.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh, that's amazing.
I'll make sure I link to thatin the show notes below so
people can find you easily, andI just thank you so much for
your time, vanessa.
It's been great getting to knowyou a little bit better and to
talk all the things aboutrecovery and thinking patterns.
I know everyone's going to geta lot out of this, so thank you
so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of
Confident Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about theSober Freedom Inner Circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
Forward slash inner circle.
(46:49):
See you next time.
Well, hey there, sober ladies, Thanks for joining
me today for the ConfidentSober Women podcast.
I'm so excited today to sharemy conversation with Vanessa
Klugman.
She is a physician and a womanin long-term recovery and she's
also a coach for people who wantto change their thinking
(00:20):
patterns.
She established a practicecalled Resilience Recovery and
she focuses on positivepsychology and using her work
both as a physician and hereducation, as well as in her
recovery, to help people changetheir lives and reflect their
unique strengths and values.
(00:40):
Our conversation was areflection of that.
We talked a lot about ourinternal thinking patterns, both
when we were in activeaddiction and now as recovered
women, and what we did to changethat.
She shared in a very personaland intimate way her story it's
pretty dramatic, like a lot ofus have and also what she has
(01:03):
been doing since then to rewritethat story, to change those
thinking patterns, to combat theperfectionism which I know, as
women, so many of us strugglewith.
So I want you to grab that bigglass of water and or your
favorite mocktail and enjoy thisconversation with Vanessa.
If you like what you hear, makesure you scroll down on your
(01:25):
platform, Make sure you reviewand rate the podcast.
It does help for other women tofind us and build our Confident
Sober Women community.
Have a great day.
(01:51):
Hello and welcome to theConfident Sober Women podcast.
I'm your guide, Shelby John.
I'm the mother of three, wifeto one and sober since July 1st
2002.
As sober women, we havesomething huge in common, and
when we share our lives and ourstories with each other, we feel
that sense of belonging andconnection, so we know we are no
longer alone.
In this podcast, you will hearreal life talk about building
(02:13):
confidence and transforming yourlife beyond recovery.
So come on, let's talk.
Hey, it's me, Shelby.
Have you ever wondered what'sreally happening in your brain
during recovery?
Are you ready to take controlof your anxiety, sleep better
and finally feel focused andconfident?
(02:35):
I want to introduce you to agame changer that's transforming
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I want you to think of this asa personal trainer for your
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(02:56):
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It's science-backed braintraining that works with your
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Speaker 2 (03:28):
You can go to my website wwwshelbyjohncom to
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Speaker 1 (03:36):
Is Neurofeedback Right For you?
Together, we'll create the calm, confident future you that you
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Take the first step towardstraining your brain for lasting
change.
Well, hey there, Vanessa.
Thank you so much for joiningme today for the Confident Sober
Women podcast.
(03:56):
I'm so glad that you're here,and I know my audience is going
to love enjoying thisconversation and all the things
that you have to offer.
So I'm gonna turn the mic overto you.
Let you share a little bit moreabout your story, and then
we're going to chat.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, thanks so much for having me.
I'm pretty.
One of my missions is reducingstigma around addiction, so this
is one of the ways I get to dothat by telling my story.
So my story I'm going to trynot to go back to too many
details.
I'm a physician and I came intorecovery 10 years ago.
My anniversary was this weekand that was June of 2015.
(04:41):
And I always say I came intorecovery from an unlivable life
because I was buying intobeliefs that did not serve me,
and my beliefs really were thatI was only as worthy as how much
I accomplished and how much Idid for everyone around me, and
that led me to living on thishamster wheel where I was
constantly pushing myself,proving myself, perfecting
(05:01):
myself, while I never felt likeI was good enough or I was doing
enough, and that led that ledto pretty severe generalized
anxiety.
So I ended up having a panicattack when I was about 39.
And even though I was a doctor,I was on the couch, my heart
(05:21):
was racing and I thought I wasdying, and I was diagnosed with
generalized anxiety then andstarted on medications for
anxiety.
But looking back on it now Ican see that that anxiety was a
result of the unbelievably highexpectations I had on myself.
To be a perfect person.
I had to be the perfect mother,the perfect wife, the perfect
(05:44):
daughter, the perfect friend,the perfect doctor, and it was
just too much and unsustainable.
So for a number of years I justwould be.
You know, I was switched fromone anxiety medication to
another anxiety medication and anumber of years after that I
broke my arm and was prescribedVicodin and I immediately got a
(06:07):
tremendous sense of relief fromthe anxiety.
So the Vicodin actually workedmore for me for anxiety than it
did for pain, and I realizedthat I was using it because I
had a frozen shoulder.
And so I was given manyprescriptions for a lot of
Vicodin and I realized, whoa, Ihave an addiction.
I'm using this not for the pain, but I'm using this for anxiety
(06:29):
relief and helping me cope withlife.
So I told my husband I stoppedusing the Vicodin, I went
through a physical withdrawaland I decided that was it.
I'm done, I'm never going toget addicted again.
But about six years later theanxiety started increasing
tremendously.
I was I think it was, you knowtaking care of aging parents.
(06:49):
My job as a physician hadbecome very, very difficult with
the electronic medical recordsand insurance companies and the
demands on physicians.
That was so different than thecareer I entered.
So I was getting burnt out atwork.
My oldest two daughters were incollege and I was missing them
so much and I was trying to weanmyself off one of my anxiety
(07:14):
medications that I had heard hadside effects and it ended up
that I had this like hugeescalation in anxiety and was
prescribed Vicodin again at thatparticular point for implants
that I had in my mouth and ofcourse it gave me that immediate
relief in the anxiety.
But I had no way to get it atthat point because they only
(07:36):
gave me 20 pills and I had in mymind that I really needed
Vicodin to relieve my anxiety.
So I went outside of my ethicalvalues and I took Vicodin out
of a pill bottle in a patient'shome that I visited.
I used to do home visits and itturned out that her son was a
DEA agent and they suspected Iwas doing this and so after I,
(08:01):
after about a year, they set upa sting and I visited her house
and they put the bike on thekitchen table instead of the
bathroom.
I took some pills out of them.
I left the apartment and I wassurrounded by DA agents, so in
that moment the pedestal ofperfection I placed myself on
(08:21):
came crashing down.
No one in my life had thefaintest clue that this is what
I was doing.
People knew I was strugglingwith anxiety, but they didn't
know that this was what wasgoing on, and so it was
devastating.
It was the most traumatic day ofmy life, and I really thought I
was going to be able to go backto practice medicine the next
(08:44):
week, which was I was intremendous denial.
My medical license wassuspended.
I went into our patienttreatment program, entering the
program thinking I wasn't anaddict, and leaving the program
understanding that I wasn't.
I was an addict.
I had had.
I wasn't using tremendousnumbers of the pills, but it was
(09:07):
the fact that I was using themdespite adverse consequences,
and using them to cope with life, um, and not not face life on
its own terms, um.
And so I left that treatmentprogram, really unsure of what I
was going to do.
Right, I had been a doctor mywhole life.
(09:28):
It had been part of my identity.
I decided I was going to be adoctor when I was six, and so
this was like a huge void in mylife and I had to figure out
what was my way forward.
What was I going to do?
So at that point I really threwmyself into trying to figure
out ways to cope with anxietythat were not medication based,
(09:49):
and I found mindfulness.
I joined a mindfulness summitand I learned about the practice
of meditation and I was like,oh, this is good because I'm all
about science.
And I learned aboutneuroplasticity and I was like,
wow, we can change our brains.
That's incredible.
I didn't know we could changeour brains when we were adults.
(10:09):
Okay, I'm going to trymeditation.
And I sat in meditation and Ipracticed meditating and I saw
how I had always been runningaway from the present moment,
how I could not sit still in themoment.
I also saw how my emotions wereconstantly changing, that I
didn't have to change them, butthat they changed by themselves.
(10:31):
So I learned very valuablelessons from that and then, as
part of it, being a physician inrecovery, I was required to
attend 12-step programs.
So I attended that.
That was part of my recoveryfor a couple of years until I at
some point made a decision thatI was not going to go back to
practice medicine and I wasgoing to become a, I wanted to
(10:54):
make meaning out of what hadhappened to me.
So I trained as a life coachwith a specialty in recovery and
started my own coachingpractice.
At that point, about eight yearsago, I would say like in terms
of recovery there's.
So I truly believe recovery is,you know, I think actually
addiction is the solution, notthe problem, right, and so for
(11:18):
sustained recovery, I think wehave to really identify what are
the problems and how do we?
And then usually many of them,and for me I would say
perfectionism, a really loudinner critic, really poor
ability to set boundaries, whichcame at people pleasing Like
these were the problems that Ihad to address in my recovery,
(11:41):
and I went about it in manydifferent ways.
You know, as I did themindfulness, I learned
self-compassion, I learnedinternal family systems, how to
work with various parts ofourselves and approach various
parts of ourselves.
I developed, I had, I createdmy own group of physicians that
(12:02):
meet on Sunday evenings who arein recovery.
So community, I think, is areally important part of
recovery too.
I got a certificate in positivepsychology because I wanted to
learn about what helps peopleflourish, and so I did that and
I learned about, you know,focusing on our strengths and
our values, and so there havebeen many, many facets to my
(12:23):
recovery.
So that's me in a nutshell, myrecovery in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Thank you so much for sharing all that.
And wow, what a story.
You know sometimes, I know, youknow each of us has our own
stories in there.
A big deal to us.
But sometimes when we sharethem and I know I do, I know I
forget sometimes, like the drama, right, that other people
experience when they're hearingour stories.
(12:49):
And so that is a lot, I mean,and and such a big consequence
to your lifestyle, to yourlivelihood.
You know your profession because, as a direct result of your
addiction, I had a similarexperience as well, not quite as
much, but similar, and it's abig deal, you know.
And then at the time, we, youknow, because we're sucked into
our own self centered addictionand we don't, we don't know that
(13:11):
, we don't see it, you know, wedon't, I don't know about you,
but you know I could spend a lotof my time when I was in the
middle of that justifying youknow why I wasn't doing
something wrong or why I didn'thave a problem.
And you know, watching thosekinds of things and hearing that
years later is so helpful, Ithink, because you're like wow,
that is so far removed from likereality, right?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
Yeah.
I think I was well when I wascaught in that.
I was in complete denial, right.
I didn't think I had a problemat all.
I thought I was just copingwith life and I was just
manipulating life to cope withit.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, and also, you know I'm not hurting anybody
else, I'm just doing my thingLike it's fine, I'm still doing
my work, I'm raising my kids,and you know we are the best at
intellectualizing andrationalizing all of these
things and we're mastermanipulators, you know.
And we just don't see any ofthat when we're in active
addiction.
It takes all of that away fromus and we also don't have a
(14:15):
conscience.
You know, I know I didn't.
And so when I got, you know,when I got sober for a long
after, for a little while, youknow that comes back and it's
such a, it's such a weird and anamazing blessing in the
beginning, when you're like,whoa, I had a conscience and
something would happen, and I'dbe like, well, I can't, I can't
do that, or I can't walk out ofthe store without paying for
that.
Or, you know, I don't even.
You know, like one time I wentto BJ's and I was unloading my
(14:35):
car and you know, I don't knowif you have those big stores in
your area, but you just takeeverything and put it in your
car and I was unloading the cartand there was something in
there that I hadn't paid for andI was like, oh gosh, I didn't,
it was like a bottle ofconditioner thing.
And I think in my other day Iwould have just been like well,
whatever you know, like that'stheir fault, but like I couldn't
do it, like I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, fundamentally changes.
Yeah yeah, the honesty is sodifferent, like the ability you
just learn and that I learnedvery much from the 12-step
program, I would say, is theimportance of honesty and, yeah,
it just feels like you're outof integrity when you're lying
or doing something.
Once you come into recovery.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I just, and sometimes I catch myself in some things
today that are simple.
I'm not like a quote unquote,like rule follower by nature.
I think you know most of usprobably aren't, but that's just
not my general way.
But you know, there are certainthings that now I'm just like
you know, like I run my business, and certain things that come
up and I'll be like, oh my gosh,I, you know, and even my
(15:42):
husband, who's very much a rulesfollower and like very risk
averse as an accountant, like,and he'll be like it's fine,
like you don't have to do, andI'm like I can't, I can't, what
if someone comes after me, youknow the irs or something, I'm
like, okay, girl, I think it's a, it's a testimony to the, the
change, the psychic change thathappens in our thinking when we
(16:02):
do this work, when we do thework right.
But then, which is what we hear?
I got sober in 12 step as well.
That's all we had back in thewhen I got sober, and it worked
for me, it works for millions ofother people and and it doesn't
have to be the only way Ialways say, you know, we need a
layered approach.
You know, I think AA and NA areperfect for the beginning,
because we all need, you know,sober places to do sober things
(16:24):
with sober people, because mostof us have none of that in our
lives, especially in a countrythat you know worships alcohol
and drugs.
We need to have that fellowship.
But then, you know, we layer onthe therapy and Reiki and
acupuncture and whatever else.
You know, nutrition, all thesethings.
So you know you talked about afew things that I think are
(16:44):
super important.
It's just that kind ofhighlighting those complexities
of life.
You know you shared about yourdaughters at college.
I have two daughters in collegeas well, and one's still here,
one's on, and it's very, verytaxing.
I miss them still all the time.
It's been almost three years,you know, and I just don't.
It hasn't gotten easier for me,you know.
And then you're trying tomaintain a marriage and you're
(17:06):
trying to you know work and dothe things and you're trying to
you know, work and do the things, and it does take a real toll.
I feel like and that soundslike that's what happened with
you like started that stinkingthinking for you, huh.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, I think I mean for me, I think it was
just the mostly the pressure ofhaving to do all of it perfectly
right, it wasn't.
It was I, these two daughtersin college, and I need to be a
perfect mother to them and Ineed to be a perfect daughter.
So there was a lot going onwith my parents aging and trying
(17:38):
to run there and take care ofthem and not say no to anything.
And, you know, give give myphone number to patients so that
they could get a hold of me ifthey needed to know boundary
setting and so the prep.
It was not like I always say,it was not a livable life, it
was an unlivable life.
You can't live life saying yesto everything and trying to be
(18:02):
perfect.
It's just impossible.
And it became, and the only wayI coped was through substances,
right, and that's not a way tolive a life.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And as you started to explore, in your recovery work
and those letters we just talkedabout, as you started to get
into it, were you able topinpoint some areas of your life
and you can share as muchdetail as you want or as little
where that perfectionism came,came from.
Do you know where the I'm notgood enough started?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
yeah, yeah, I mean, I have loving parents, of course,
but, um, with very highexpectations.
So, um, my dad's a physician aswell, and my grandfather was,
and my father is, and I adorehim.
But he and my mother bothexpected a lot of academic
(18:55):
success and I learned prettyearly on that that in order to
get their approval, I needed toaccomplish and do really well.
And the more I did well, themore approval I got, the more it
fit my ego that, okay, I'mdoing what I need to be doing.
And the more I did well, themore approval I got, the more it
fit my ego that, okay, I'mdoing what I need to be doing
and this is working and I justneed to keep doing it at all
(19:18):
expenses, right, and so.
And then I extended that fromacademics to just like every
part of my life instead of onlyacademics.
Now, if it works there, maybeit'll also work in relationships
.
Only academics, now, if itworks there, maybe it'll also
work in relationships.
Okay, now I need to be like theperson everyone loves.
How do I do that?
I do everything they want andthen that's, and so that the not
(19:40):
good enough, I think came fromthat place yeah, I see that a
lot in my practice as well, withachievement-based love is what
I kind of call it.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know people who and for really no fault of
theirs.
The parents, you know,sometimes, especially in the
older generations, but reallyanywhere is they don't have the
emotional wherewithal, reallythe emotional intelligence to be
able to give.
Those older generations didn'thave that right.
So the only way they knew howto, maybe and it didn't mean
(20:13):
they didn't feel love or didn'tknow deep love for their
children or each other, but theexpression of it wasn't modeled
for them.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
It wasn't talked about and it was very
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It was not normalized , and so then it only could come
out in ways like oh, you'rethis great student, or maybe
you're this incredible athlete,or you got this great job, or
you make all this you know like.
And so suddenly now they, theyhave a built in way of of
expressing and showing that loveand they think they're doing a
good thing, right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it becomes about
what you accomplish, not whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
And that's a really tough identity to break for
people.
And even in kids, like when youknow, and some of these kids I
have one, maybe two, probablyjust one of them who is very who
was like that by herself.
She was, she's just alreadylike that and I'm like we didn't
really do that, I didn't.
(21:09):
I mean I'm not like that andI'm like we didn't really do
that.
I didn't.
I mean I'm not like that.
I don't have get straight A's,I never was and we don't really
have those kinds of expectations, but she like had that for
herself.
And so I remember kind of inmiddle school they were in a
very small school like one ofthe teachers really made it like
her mission, I think, to helpthese kids sever their identity
(21:32):
coming from grades, you know,and from that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And it was.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It was a painful.
I think she in purpose gave hera B.
Frankly, in one of the classeslike because, she needed to have
that experience and to be ableto break and I was kind of
grateful for it because we wereable to work with her on it and
stuff.
But you know it's it's aninteresting thing how we are all
built.
Personality stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
But you know it's it's an interesting thing how we
are all built personality.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , yeah, so gosh.
So then you were, you know,kind of coming up and then you
did do the things, you know, youdid become a doctor, you did
have a great success.
You know, outwardly, and on theinside, you know, the thoughts
were just really raging.
You know, it sounds like youwere really running your life
where you were measuringeverything against something
else.
You know, comparing out as wesay to be true.
(22:16):
How was that in your personallife?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
in terms of my relationships with my work or
school.
Yeah, I always felt like I wasless than you know.
I was always like, comparingmyself to others, oh, that
person has more friends than Ihave.
I need more friends.
I'm not, you know.
So I always felt like and Ithink part of that came from the
fact that I I immigrated to theUnited States when I was 15
(22:43):
from South Africa, so I was bornin South Africa, and coming to
a new country in high school isso traumatic and I had an accent
and I didn't fit in, and sothis feeling of like I'm not
good enough, that was reinforcedat that time too.
Like I don't fit in, there'ssomething wrong with me, there's
something different about me um, I'm, you know, and so I was
(23:08):
always comparing to others.
Like that person has morefriends, that person has a
better house, that person, youknow, like that comparisonitis
going on the whole time and thatfeeling of not being good
enough just being reinforcedover and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Right, and it's it's death by comparison, right, you
know, because individuals, youknow, the same, even if we're
similar, our outsides to someoneelse's insides or vice versa,
is just always going to lead todysfunction.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I mean, I think there was that inner critical voice
that was just beating me up allthe time and if anyone looked at
my life they would say, oh mygosh, look at her.
She's got the husband, thethree kids, the house, the job,
the doctor, she's got theperfect life right.
But internally I was dying.
I was like so unhappy and soanxious and so stressed out.
(24:06):
But I was able to to like hidethat so well Externally, I think
we're experts at that, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
So one of the things that I know is true for myself
and then I hear, and and most ofthe people that I talked to who
have long-term recovery, and soI ask a lot is you know, after
we get sober for a little whileusually about a year or so we
get into that kind of one tofive year range.
I do believe there's this kindof awakening that starts
happening and we kind of webegin to wake up to the
(24:38):
opportunities and possibilitiesof life, being this now sober
person, things we could havenever imagined before.
You know, we're kind of stillbaby, new, sober women.
But you know, now suddenly it'slike, oh wow, I could, you know
, advance my career, or I couldstart a family, or I could get
divorced, or you know, there'sall these things that kind of
come up and now suddenly they'reavailable to us.
(24:59):
I'm not sure if you had thatsame experience, but if you can
relate to that, I'd be curiousto hear what that was like for
you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, in some ways I do.
I do relate to that.
I think for me it was more inthe spiritual perspective that
life changed so much.
I think I'd always had a sensethat there was something I
didn't get about life right,like that I was doing it wrong
in some way, or there wassomething I wasn't quite
figuring out.
And when I came into recovery Ireally threw myself into like
(25:32):
spiritual practices and spirit,trying to understand life on a
greater, from a greaterperspective.
Like why are we here?
What's this all about?
We're not you know what.
So I actually what reallyresonated for me?
I learned about like I don'tknow if you've heard of Tara
Brock and like RadicalAcceptance and True Refuge and
(25:55):
she's written a number of booksand she has a wonderful podcast
and she's a Buddhistpsychotherapist and I found her
my first summer of recovery andI listened to every single
podcast and I took notes on themand they resonated.
It was really about its idea ofit's the radical acceptance
that you hear of in the 12 stepprogram as well.
(26:15):
But it was this concept of likethere's just life as it is,
there's and there's, being withreality as it shows up and not
fighting it and not saying no,it shouldn't be this way, even
though it may not be what wewant and it may be very
uncomfortable, but there is likean acceptance of reality as it
(26:36):
is that gives you a tremendoussense of peace.
And so, for me, what reallystarted to fundamentally shift
in recovery was going from thatplace of fighting life and
manipulating life andcontrolling life to be the way I
wanted to be, to being from aplace of true acceptance, just
(26:58):
being with reality as it showedup moment to moment, being with
reality as it showed up momentto moment, and that
fundamentally changed, like howI showed up in the world Right
and who, how I felt about myselfand the other people.
So I wouldn't say it was for melike a big career change,
although there was a huge careerchange, but that wasn't the big
(27:18):
change for me.
The change was more thespiritual, like understanding of
life, and as I delved into that, I went into more spiritual
practices and the understandingof Buddhism and the practices of
Buddhism Not that I'm aBuddhist, but just those
practices have been so helpfulto me and some of the
meditations that Tara Brachshares around, like the RAIN
(27:43):
meditation, recognizing where weare, allowing the emotions to
be there investigating them andthen just nurturing whatever we
need in the moment.
And I practice that over andover and shared it with my
clients, and people love thatmeditation and it's just such a
helpful thing that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
So I'm curious, I love that you kind of honed in
on that spiritual element andobviously that is a part of the
12 step recovery programs and Ireally do believe that needs to
be a part of all of ourrecoveries, because we do need
to come to terms with the factthat it's, you know, the world
really doesn't revolve around usand that we don't really have
control over really much ofanything.
(28:26):
And I think that can only comefrom understanding that there is
something outside of ourselvesand what you choose to call that
or believe in is, you know,kind of very personal and unique
to you.
But it is, I think it'snecessary, you know, to get to
kind of more towardsactualization, right, you know,
in Maslow's hierarchy and reallydevelopment into that emotional
(28:47):
sobriety realm.
But I'm curious how that workedfor you in the changing of your
thought patterns, cause Ireally want to kind of get into
now, like, okay, what did you doLike?
I know you use 12 step.
Most people are probablyfamiliar with that.
Even if you didn't use them,you probably have some
understanding about what thatprocess is like.
But for you, like, how did youattack those thoughts like and
(29:08):
really change them?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
yeah, yeah.
So, uh, those inner criticalthoughts you're not good enough,
you're not doing enough, youshould be doing more.
I there were a couple of waysthat I approached it.
I would say, actually, I'mthinking of three different
kinds of ways, so, and I'm allabout figuring out how to
(29:30):
approach things in a verylogical, like evidence-based way
.
So number one was CBT, right,cognitive behavioral therapy,
the idea that everything I thinkis not true.
Thoughts aren't facts.
Right, so why am I believingeverything that my brain, my
mind, is just putting out there?
So I started getting a littlebit of distance from my thoughts
(29:53):
.
Oh, maybe that thought isn'ttrue.
Do I know it's?
I start challenging it.
Is that 100% true?
How do I know it's 100% true?
How do I feel when I believethat thought?
And what would be a thoughtthat would be more empowering?
So there was that CBT approach.
So that was one one bucket thatI put it in.
The second bucket was definitelymeditation helped, right?
(30:14):
So I, in meditation, the wholegoal is to just change your
relationship with your thoughts.
Don't buy into every thought.
Just see thoughts as likesoundbites.
They just pop into our brains,we repeat them.
We have like 80,000 thoughts aday and we keep repeating them
over and over and over, like 90%of the same thoughts right Over
(30:34):
and over and over.
They're just soundbites,they're just things that pop
into my brain and I just don't.
I didn't buy into them as much.
In meditation I just noticed oh, there goes a thought, there
goes a thought.
So there was that.
And then the third thing that Ithink that was really
tremendously beneficial was whenI came across the work of
Kristen Neff and self-compassion.
(30:55):
So she has done a lot of workon self-compassion and I love
evidence-based.
So she's a and she's ascientist and she has done
studies and she's shown thatpeople who score higher on
self-compassion have lessdepression, less anxiety, more
resilience, recover from traumafaster.
(31:17):
So I was like whoa, this is astudy, I need to learn about
this.
I need, I want to find out moreabout self-compassion and as I
learned about it, I need tolearn about this.
I want to find out more aboutself-compassion and as I learned
about it, I took the course inself-compassion
mindfulness-basedself-compassion and I learned
the self-compassion break, whichis a really easy thing you can
do during the day and it'sreally.
(31:38):
There are three parts to it,right?
So the first part ismindfulness noticing you're
struggling.
Often we are caught in thestruggle and we don't even have
any separation.
So, like whoa, this really ispainful.
I'm struggling right now.
This hurts, whatever it is,whether it's an argument with a
friend, whether it's a feelinglike you failed at something or
(32:00):
you made a mistake this hurts,this is painful.
The second part of theself-compassion break is,
instead of criticizing ourselves, become kind to ourselves.
So it's self-kindness.
So it's like in that moment,what can I do?
How can I put a hand on myheart, maybe, and just say I'm
here for you, it's okay, I'vegot you, like something kind.
(32:22):
And then the third part of theself-compassion break is common
humanity, which is the idea thatI'm not alone in this.
Struggling is a part of life.
We all make mistakes.
It doesn't mean that you knowwe're like.
That is all just a normal partof the human experience making
mistakes, having arguments,difficulties, challenges.
(32:44):
So my struggle is like thisright now and your struggle is
like that.
But we all struggle.
We're not alone, because oftenwhen we're struggling, we become
very self absorbed and we startthinking we're in this alone,
right.
We become very, very secludedand isolated.
So it's easy.
It's just three things.
Oh wow, this hurts.
How can I be kind, how can I bekind to myself?
(33:07):
And oh, struggling, suffering,it's a part of life and it takes
us out of that.
So that's the self compassionbreak, and I started practicing
that a lot in my life and as Idid that, that voice started
getting quieter and thesupportive voice started getting
louder and became the moredominant voice and really I
don't struggle so much I meanreally rarely with that inner
(33:30):
critical voice.
It'll come up sometimes, I'llnotice it, of course, and and I
just I'm able to kind of relateto it'll come up sometimes, I'll
notice it, of course, and Ijust I'm able to kind of relate
to it in a different way.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I love that so much that self-compassion break is
such a great tangible tool,right, so that's something that
we can really hang on to Like.
You could put that in your kindof notes file in your phone.
You could set little timers tosay self compassion break and
kind of have your little kind ofinstructions.
Sometimes in the beginning, whenwe're trying something new, we
(34:03):
really do need, you know,instructions.
You know, or protocol, how do Ido we can get tripped up on the
like, well, I don't know how toeven meditation, you know, I
don't know how to do that.
Or you know prayer, how do I dothat?
How do I talk to, you know, god, or whatever, like you know.
Okay, so just write down a fewsteps and yeah, I kind of liken
it almost to to like aninventory.
I I talk a lot about like athought inventory, you know,
(34:24):
kind of, and and I like how youalso talked about, uh, the
noticing which I guess ismindset, uh, mindfulness.
You know, interchangeably.
I always say you know likenoticing, like you're like what
is going on right now, like whatis what is happening like right
now, especially if you're inlike a situation where you uh,
maybe you just lashed out atsomebody or you feel you're
(34:44):
feeling that kind of stick toyour stomach or nervous or
anxiety coming up.
You know like you're gettingthe physical symptoms.
Our bodies are such greatindicators and they're usually
first before when we are doingthis work, when we're under
developed emotionally, the bodyis first, and so, as we are
learning, you can use your bodyas a tool to help you understand
.
Like there is a something,there's something happening, and
(35:06):
then it's up to us to use ouryou know, our frontal lobes, our
cognitive brains, to say whatis going on.
Like, what am I afraid of what?
If the situation right now isbothering me?
You know, asking yourselfreally good questions, I think,
is part of self-compassion, andthen you have to drill down.
This is self-awareness, I think,self-awareness which most
people are not truly veryself-aware I think it's 70, I
(35:28):
think Trisha Urich does the.
She's the big researcher onself-awareness and she said,
like 70% of people are notself-aware, which I get.
That and people don't like this.
We don't like to do this.
Because when you're like, well,what am I afraid of?
Oh, I'm not afraid of anything.
He just came at me, blah, blah,blah, and you're like, oh, no,
(35:48):
no, really ask yourself well,what am I afraid of?
Well, I don't like, I'm afraidthat I'll get upset.
Well, and you're like, oh, okay, well, there's your core issue
right now.
You believe that you're weak,you know, or maybe your security
is being threatened you won'tbe loved.
I mean so you can get to thoselike core negative thoughts
while you're working throughthis stuff by asking super great
questions from using your bodyin that self compassion break.
(36:09):
I mean, that's why we, that'swhy these influencers on on
Instagram and people like us aretalking about these things.
It's not just because we wantclicks and likes and whatever.
It's real stuff, like youmentioned.
It's like real science.
It's not just pleasantry, youknow, it's like a real thing.
And then the meditation piece,I think, is really powerful too,
and sometimes people gettripped up, including myself,
(36:31):
people who are, you know, haveadult ADHD.
I mean, I'm just more of a busyperson, busy body and mind, and
so it's sometimes hard.
I remember when I was I wasn'tearly, early, but I was newer,
probably in that first 10 yearseven I used to do acupuncture
kind of regularly.
I started to layer on a lot ofcomplimentary kind of medicine
(36:54):
modalities.
After I did a lot of good stepwork and she told me I should
take yoga and I was like I can'ttake yoga Because I can't, I
can't stay in the room, I can'tsit in the room for that long.
I couldn't stand it, I couldn't.
There's no clock in there, Icouldn't sit in there for 60
minutes, and so which is themost bizarre thing ever
(37:14):
Sometimes when I hear myself saythat, but that's where I was, I
just couldn't do it.
And so she's like that's why youneed to take the yoga, and I'm
like I don't want to do it andso I had.
I did start doing it and it wasextremely helpful.
It was very uncomfortable andchallenging but, boy, after I
did practice that for weeks,months, years this is not
something that happened quicklyfor me I was able to start to
(37:40):
utilize that as a verymeditative experience and it
became much more of a spiritualslash meditative experience for
me than it was a physicalexperience.
The physical stuff for me waslike a bonus.
Like I was like, oh cool, I'mgetting a little bit of a
workout too, but mostly I wentthere for a spiritual connection
and just to be able to learnhow to be present a spiritual
connection and just to be ableto learn how to be present.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, I relate so much to that.
I mean I I could not sit stilland I could not be with myself.
Before I came into recovery Iwas.
I think I was running away frommyself all the time and it is
astonishing to me that now I'mable, I enjoy my own company.
I like being alone and beingquiet and being with myself and
(38:20):
I really do attribute a lot ofthat to these practices.
Right, and the meditation for me, oh my gosh, sitting still in
meditation with my mind racingand thoughts coming and going,
and my meditation teacher wouldjust say it doesn't matter how
many thoughts you have, it's allabout the practice of just how
(38:42):
you relate to the thoughts.
So it's sitting with.
Sitting in meditation is aboutjust being curious and
compassionate to whatever showsup.
And that was like oh, okay, allI need to do is sit here and be
kind to my mind as it racesfrom thought to thought
sometimes unpleasant thoughts,sometimes pleasant thoughts and
(39:04):
just bring it back to the breath.
It's not about blissing out orgetting rid of thoughts or
clearing my mind of all thoughts.
That's not what I do inmeditation.
That's some types of meditation, but that's not mindfulness
meditation.
So when I learned that I waslike, okay, I don't need to get
rid of thoughts, then I'm doingfine, like this is okay, I just
(39:26):
need to sit here and be kind andcurious about whatever shows up
.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
That's such an important distinction, because
what we just said, right,because we're all different,
we're all differentpersonalities, and so being able
to find a good match, versuseliminating an entire modality
because you're like, well, Ican't do that.
Instead of saying, well, maybethere's another type, maybe
there's a type of meditation, Iwant to put you on the spot here
for a second and, if you'rewilling, I'm just curious if you
(39:51):
could just maybe do like a,like a one minute kind of act
out.
What does that look like?
Like when you're sitting thereand that's happening, like just
pretend, like for like oneminute, really, you're just in
the meditation experience.
I would like to hear, can youset it up for us, like where are
you, what's happening, whattime of day, um, how long is it?
And then, when the thoughtstarts coming in, what are you
(40:12):
doing?
I just want to see if I gotthis.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
So usually I meditate .
I meditate every day.
I meditate for about 15 to 20minutes, so not a huge amount of
time.
The times are different and Iusually do it just sitting in my
office and because I have abeautiful view, but I do close
my eyes.
I look outside and then I closemy eyes and I just, I usually
(40:35):
just feel my feet on the groundand feel a connection of my feet
with the earth and feel how theearth is supporting me in the
moment.
And then I bring my attention upmy body and eventually to my
breath and I just kind of noticethe waves of the breath.
And as I'm noticing the waves ofthe breath, my mind might go of
(40:57):
the breath.
And as I'm noticing the wavesof the breath, my mind might go,
oh, I need to, like, cookdinner later or I need to call
so and so, and I just, sometimesI'll just go label it like, oh,
thinking, and then come back tothe breath.
Sometimes it will be like, oh,I wonder if my son is going to
get sick because he was at thatparty last night, and I'll be
like, oh, worrying.
And then I just bring it backto the breath and then I'll
(41:19):
breathe a few more times andthen something else might pop
into my mind and I might getcaught up in it for a while.
I go in the whole story, youknow, remembering an event that
occurred, and then I'll just belike, oh, it's like waking up,
you know, I wake up to it andI'm like, oh, caught in thinking
, and just come back to thebreath and that's how I meditate
(41:41):
.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Thank you so much.
That was helpful Because I waseven listening to you talk about
how you can show selfcompassion to yourself and that,
and I was.
I understand the concept in thewords, but I was.
I was struggling a tiny bit tojust kind of figure out like, oh
, what does this actually looklike?
And that makes total sense.
And when you said be kind toyour mind, I really liked that
because it rhymes and it's easyto remember.
(42:07):
It's so true and and those arethe kinds of phrases or or you
know, instagram plaques rightthat we'll see, we would see
back in our day, or new peoplekind of see, and they'll be like
that's so stupid, like I'm notgoing to do that, like who does
that, whatever.
And then, but once you start tolearn and see how you are being
so kind of mean to yourself,you know you're just being like
(42:29):
a mean friend, you know a mean,mean girl to yourself.
It's easier than to be like, oh, wow, okay.
Well, the reverse of that is tostart to show compassion to
yourself, start to have kindness, and I think there's a lot of
acceptance work that comes withthis too.
One of the things that I think Iwas, I was thinking about when
you were sharing something alongthe way was you know when
(42:52):
things go on?
I used to.
I have a very similar thoughtpattern to you and it was pretty
ingrained and really, reallytough to like undo.
And also I live with otherpeople and around other people
who were sort of supportive ofthat, and so it was hard to kind
of undo that, especially whenthere's criticism coming at you
and like there's other thingsand so, as you're learning and
growing and becoming more awareof things and like healing
(43:15):
yourself, those things are stillhappening around you, right,
and you might get that sort ofcriticism or, you know, make
mistakes or whatever.
And so I had to really learnhow to adjust my language, and I
guess maybe that's CBT work toois just sort of like when
somebody wants to say, like Ican't believe you forgot that
you know picture day form orwhatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
(43:35):
And I'm like you know I wasable to start to learn.
Took me a very long time to say, yeah, I did forget that
picture day form and that reallystinks.
But you know, I did like athousand things really well
today you know, I just did thatone thing wrong so instead of
ruminating on the mistake andlike making that the highlight
of the whole day or the whole,my whole life.
(43:56):
I could, I was able to just putit in its place, you know
instead.
I was able to start to say youknow, I got three kids dressed
and ready, we were on time forschool, I fed them, we were, we
were, we had a good time when wedid this and we did this.
And you know, I, I, you know.
And then, yes, there was thismistake, but that doesn't have
to, that doesn't discount allthe other things that went
really well.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, I mean, we have such a negative at worst.
Our brains just have anegativity bias, right, so we
remember all the mistakes.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So it's hard work to rewire all of that?
Yeah, but it is possible andthat's one of the beautiful
about neuroscience right now,and I love the last 10 years or
so with the brain research.
I'm an EMDR therapist, so it isEMDR is a modality that I use
every single day.
I also have a remoteneurofeedback program which is
hardwires the brain usingoperant conditioning, which
(44:44):
literally does.
Both of those modalities arehealing the brain in two
different ways but very similarand rewriting our stories and
rewriting our thinking patternsfor good, right Like they're not
.
It doesn't go back, it's notfor a temporary fix, it's.
These are real, lastingmodalities that people can
access and I would encourage youto do that.
If you're not, if you haven'tdone so, I would love for you to
(45:06):
tell us a little bit more aboutwhere we can find you If
somebody wants to reach out andlearn a little bit more about
what you're you're're doing,what kind of services you
provide and where you like tohang out yeah, so you can find
me on my.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
You can look me up on my website, which is resilience
recovery coachingcom.
Um.
I have an instagram page aswell under the same name
resilience recovery coaching andfacebook page, um, and I coach
really people from all over thecountry.
So I do zoom coaching, coaching, and I have an office in
Chicago, in Illinois, in my home, and I just really love
(45:44):
coaching.
You know anybody, women or men,who are interested in letting
go of self sabotaging habits andand live according to their
values, and so, for me,self-sabotaging habits are not
just over drinking, it's alsoperfectionism is a habit, and
procrastination and that innercritical voice buying into it is
also a habit.
(46:04):
So I love working with all ofthose.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh, that's amazing.
I'll make sure I link to thatin the show notes below so
people can find you easily, andI just thank you so much for
your time, vanessa.
It's been great getting to knowyou a little bit better and to
talk all the things aboutrecovery and thinking patterns.
I know everyone's going to geta lot out of this, so thank you
so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of
Confident Sober Women.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, hit the subscribe
button above so you won't missany upcoming episodes.
And, hey, if you really lovedit, leave me a review.
You can learn more about theSober Freedom Inner Circle
membership atwwwshelbyjohncoachingcom.
Forward slash inner circle.
(46:49):
See you next time.
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