Revisiting Aleks Crossan on Performing, Painting & Finding Creative Fulfilment

In this episode, I revisit my conversation with Aleks Crossan, who speaks candidly about overcoming creative block, shifting from external validation to inner purpose, and discovering joy in the process rather than the outcome. Her path to artistic empowerment began by embracing fear and rejection, and by learning to tune into what truly matters.

We explore the serendipity of finding her current studio—inside a former apple packing facility in Hobart—and how space and place shape artistic evolution. Aleks also reflects on the vibrant Tasmanian art scene, the role of community, and how digital platforms are empowering younger artists to share their stories on their own terms.

Whether you’re navigating creative uncertainty or seeking inspiration for your own practice, Aleks’ story is a moving reminder that fulfilment often follows when we stop chasing and start listening.

Keywords: Aleks Crossan, Tasmanian artist, performance to painting, creative resilience, overcoming creative block, finding a studio, art and personal growth, regional art community, social media and youth art, digital storytelling, women artists, visual arts in Tasmania, creative empowerment

🎙️ Connect Curate Create features stories of artists cultivating courage, place, and meaning through creativity in regional Australia.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to the podcast. This week we're sharing one of
my favorite episodes so far, part of our new series of recap
episodes. While we're busy producing new
content for the podcast, YouTubeand our brand new Patreon
channel. That's right, Connect, Curate,

(00:20):
Create is now on Patreon. It's a dedicated space to learn,
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Do you feel like your art has been seen by the right people?
Are you getting the kind of feedback that actually helps you
grow? Do you have a space where you
can learn with other artists Really get.

(00:42):
What you're doing? If you answered no to any of
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Our Patreon community gets exclusive and early access to
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(01:06):
creative practice with the support of a collaborative
learning community, click the Patreon link in the show notes
and join us today. Now let's get into another
brilliant episode packed with ideas and inspiration for your
own creative journey. So welcome back to the podcast.
I'm here in Hobart, TAS with Alex Crossen, Artist.

(01:32):
Welcome, Alex. Thank you, it's nice to be here.
So we're trying something new here, new audio setup.
So you notice I've not got the headphones on as usual.
But yeah, we've got the lav mics, so we're changing things
up here. Little fluffy, Yeah, and a
little bit more relaxed, hopefully, although perhaps I'm

(01:53):
not, but Alex certainly is on the couch.
Like with the headphones, it waslike, oh, how's that going to
feel? So I'm actually I'm I'm pretty
happy with not having. Yeah, good, good.
And what's such a wonderful space you've given me a tour of?
Yes, of the facility. I love giving tours.
Yeah. It's like every time I give a
tour, I kind of, it's like then the people are so impressed and

(02:16):
then and then from their reactions, it kind of makes me
feel even better about what I'm doing and like my practice.
And it makes me feel even more not accomplished, but like just
like, yeah, this is what I'm doing.
And so it's like this, this kindof cycle or circle of
manifesting what I want to do. But it's like, it's just all

(02:39):
like, you know what I mean? It just kind of I do because I
because I get to say it over andover again.
Some people, they write the things in the journal.
We're like, you know, this is what I'm trying to manifest.
But every time I give somebody atour, I just like re.
I'm like, oh, this is fucking amazing.
Like, Oh yeah, we have this and that and and then I just kind of
get to feel it again and enjoy it again.
And so by doing that so often, Ijust kind of expand myself into

(03:04):
the future version of myself that I'm going to be.
That makes sense. It does to me.
It does to me, yeah. Yeah.
I've just been listening to SethGodin's The Practice, as I was
saying. So yeah, no, it's just what
Seth's been telling me to do as well.
Yeah, there you go. But The thing is, is, is coming
to you have the studio that's inan old brewery and there are

(03:26):
other studios around and you're part of we were just talking
about this how? First thing was a brewery, the
one building, but then mainly itwas apple, apple packing sheds
and apple processing facilities.So most of the yeah, sorry.
But the wonderful thing is, is you rent this space as do other
artists and makers. Yeah.
And so you have this sort of microcosm of community, but then

(03:50):
you're part of this wider community of, of the Hobart
artist scene is a very naive wayof saying it, I suppose.
But then the Tasmanian scene them and, and the, you know, so
it's for what you've just described there, giving me the
tour. I get, I get a sense of your
world that you're in here, but how it's connected to the

(04:13):
outside, but through what you tell me.
So how did you get here? I we lived in Signet and I had a
little studio that was just kindof like part of the living room,
but it was like a little extra half room, but I was working on
my desk a lot. So that was when I started my
art practice, which was about 3 years ago.

(04:34):
So I have to just back up. I've been in the arts all my
life, but I've moved into visualart three years ago.
So you know, I had a dance company, I've been on stage,
I've done voice over work for cartoons, I've composed music.
So like lots of, lots of artistic creating going on.
But so three years ago I startedand I didn't have a lot of

(04:56):
space. So I did small things.
I did like just kind of lines, like line drawings and
watercolor and ink things. And then when we sold our house
and we started renting closer totown, I didn't have a studio.
And I was like, I just really need space because I had started

(05:18):
working with acrylics, but just like, you know, on a chair.
And I realized that I don't liketo do small things.
I need more space. And I emailed like the mayor and
the this person, that person waslike, what about artists in
Hobart? You know, we need space.
There's no like, I was looking on the, you know, on Gumtree, on
Facebook Marketplace. It's just looking for spaces.

(05:38):
And then there are a few like studio collaborations, but
they're like, oh, we have a waitlist.
And like, it's like a club you can't get into.
It's like all these people, I'm like, I don't know any of these
people. It's like if you're not in the
club, you're not going to get inthere.
Like they just got to be friendswith somebody.
So I'm like, OK, that's not going to work out for me.
And then so there are a few places, but they just didn't

(05:59):
have any space. I applied to Salamanca Arts
Center and I was like, oh, that's, that's going to be so
cool. Like I'm going to get a studio
up there. I'm prepared to pay a lot.
They're really expensive. It's going to be other artists
there. I'm going to be in this
beautiful building. It's such a cool building,
right? And like Salamanca and I didn't
get it. I was like fuck.

(06:22):
And so I got really frustrated and I told you before that my
son, Merlin, he's 22. He gave me my own advice and
he's like, mom, you just have toforget about it.
Like just let it go. Don't try.
Just get settled in the garage. Hey, moving around boxes, like
pouting, kind of like setting mystuff up.
And then did that for like 2 evenings.

(06:44):
And then I had it done and I hadstarted, you know, kind of
painting, but not with like excitement, you know, I was
just, I was kind of pouty a bit like.
And then the next day I got an e-mail from Jude, who is has her
studio in my studio in the corner that her studio partner

(07:04):
was moving out in this amazing place.
And I just knew her from having contact with her for an
application that I had made oncebecause she worked with the
public art installations in Hobart.
And so I had emailed her months ago.
It's like, well, you know, if you hear anything, let me know.
And she got back to me and said that her studio partner was
moving out. And she started describing the

(07:25):
property. And I got halfway through the
e-mail. It was like 7:30 in the morning.
I didn't really know. I called her.
I was like, I want to come. And I came.
And yeah, I've been here since May last year.
And it's, it's ridiculous. Yeah.
Sauna, man. Like it's just like what?
Well, I, but I suppose more important, I don't know, my

(07:47):
interpretation is you have a youhave wonderful wall space.
Yeah. So you can make that big art
that you, you really want to make.
Yeah, Yeah. And which I mean, this is
something that, you know, we, the I, I, I do feel it's such a
privilege to be invited into artist studios, so thank you.
But also what we don't don't ever talk about is how hard it

(08:10):
is to get those studio spaces aswell.
It's really hard, yeah. But I also think so like what
really interests me in creating art like myself, what interests
me is that everything that happens in here when you're
creating or, you know, in life, like I'm really interested in
how we think about things, how we make decisions and what

(08:31):
happens while I'm painting, you know, the the whole process that
we go through. Likewise with finding a studio.
Yeah, it's really hard. But like what I got was 100
times more amazing than what I thought I could get.
And I think so, like, I'm reallyglad I didn't get Salamanca

(08:52):
because this is what like, I didn't even know this existed,
right. So if I would have been like,
oh, let's write down, you know, what I want, what I want, I want
to have a studio with, I would have limited the possibility of
what was happening because I gotgiven, you know, the fucking win
of the lottery for me. But I didn't know that this was

(09:13):
possible. So I think just trusting that,
you know, just kind of how should I explain it?
So it's like, you know, I'm going this path and then I think
I'm going this way and then the universe goes like I'm like, OK,
I thought I was going this way, but I guess we're going this
way. And then just like being with
open eyes and you know, the feelers out like OK, I know

(09:33):
something's going to happen. What is it?
But you don't know what. But if you can, when I say you,
I mean we you know, if we can just go with it and be like, OK,
well, I thought this was going to happen, but I guess it's not.
And not hang on to it, but just like kind of go with the flow.
Then stuff like this happens. So yes, it is really hard to
find a studio. I never thought this was
possible, but I think there's more of this stuff around If we

(09:53):
just let go of, of like this is what I need or like just like,
OK, whatever. Like I'm just going to try to be
in the space where I can kind ofequal the, the energy that
sounds so the the like just the,the same kind of level of what
I'm trying to get. Do you know what I mean?

(10:15):
Yeah, I do. You used the word manifest
before when you were talking about showing me and others
around and how you manifest yourfuture artistic self.
And so I guess, yeah, you, this space became your space through
a series of events. And as you say, if you'd taken

(10:39):
another turn sooner, it would this wouldn't have manifest.
So, yeah, I know you're here nowand you're making the most of it
by the look of it. Yeah.
So I, I usually start by asking where did it all begin?
You've already told us that. So three years as a visual
artist, but a lifetime in the arts.

(11:04):
And I want to really, I was justabout to dive into contemporary
art, your paintings here on the wall.
And. But I think that needs to come
later. So you've, I guess the question
is, rather than where did it allbegin?
Have you always felt that you'rean artist?
I've always been really creativeand always felt I felt like I

(11:27):
was bigger, like like bigger than a lot of people around me.
Like just more ideas or more energy or more like just kind
of, and also too much often likeyou're too much, you're too
loud, you're too whatever. Now I'm 48, I'm like, I don't
fucking care anymore. It's like, you know, but so like

(11:48):
when I was little, I wanted to be a clown when I was 3 and like
we had the Charlie Chaplin VHS like box set.
Oh my God. Like just, I watched those
forwards and backwards. I know all this.
I know all the songs and all themusic I like.
I just so like Charlie Chaplin. We had Laurel and Hardy.
We had just like all of those, you know, that kind of.

(12:10):
So I watched that. I went to the circus, we would
go to the circus. I wanted to be in the circus and
I wanted to be a clown. And now I remember when I was 11
or 12. So I did go to like theatre
classes and I took ballet. Ballet was a little bit too
regimented for me, but I wanted to go to this kids circus that

(12:30):
like every summer holidays, theyhad five weeks of intense like
practice. And then they would tour
Switzerland, which is where we lived, where I grew up and, and
do the shows. And it was like proper circus
kids who go through that, like, you know, they go to circus.
And my parents, they weren't together.
They were split. And I remember I drove with my

(12:51):
mom in the train to Hood, which is the place, and my dad picked
me up. Then we went into a Cafe.
I remember this and we were sitting there and, you know,
it's like the handover. And I remember I'd asked them if
I could do it, and they said no.And because it was too much, it
would have been too far to drive.
And my mom was working. And I mean, I understand it, but
it was like, oh, but I want to be a clown.

(13:13):
And so I remember that it was really, that was devastating for
me. That was a really big
disappointment. But I continued.
I did theatre classes and we hada like once a year, we would
have a big performance, you know, And so it was just really
fulfilling. And our teacher, her name was
Rosemary Mitzentin, you could not do this today.

(13:34):
Like she, we loved her. She had two groups of 100 kids
that had a performance that theymade.
So this was like a whole year ofrehearsals and stuff.
And when we were on stage practicing and doing the, like
the lead up to the performance, you know, you have 30 kids on
stage and they're not listening.And she had these heavy shoes.
This is the 80s, OK. So like these, you know, kind of

(13:54):
like a little bit higher. And they're like heavy, proper
shoes, not like today. And she would stand on stage and
she would say in Swiss German, then the the Royxy Fluke, then
she was so if you're not quiet, my shoe's gonna fly.
And she would take off her shoe and she would throw it across.
And we, we're like, and we lovedit.
Try that today. It would be like.

(14:15):
I had a biology teacher, Mr. Bolt.
Ah yeah, he did. Was.
He like that he would. It was the blackboard razor.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And you remember it, right?
Yeah, I've still got the skirts.No, really.
No, it's not. This isn't about me.
This is about you, Alex. So.
So theatre, you know, that was, that was just a really great
time. Then I went to the States, to

(14:39):
boarding school, grade 191112 and got into the theatre there.
So it's always been like theatreperformance singing.
I was in the choir, I was in thechamber singers, photography in
the photo lab. I can still smell the chemicals.
I loved it. Like, you know, developing
everything. Photographer just like that.

(15:01):
All, all of those, like all the artistic areas.
But I didn't get into painting or drawing.
That didn't really. Yeah, at that time that wasn't
something that I wanted to get into.
And then I feel like looking back, it's just always it was
kind of more of an external thing, like also needing
external validation like the artforms that I did.

(15:23):
So like being on stage and you have an audience, you know, or
like singing, you have an audience.
Like a lot of it being about maybe like, look, not low self
esteem, but like insecurity kindof, and then being able to being
able to get that from the reaction from the audience and
like, I was good. That was good, you know, instead
of being able to give that to yourself, to get that from the,

(15:46):
the people. So I feel like that that's why I
was more in the in, in those kind of arts, like more the
performing arts, which I loved. But it's an interesting choice
to look back now. And then before I had kids, I
started painting and I wanted togo into art school, but I didn't
get in. This was after I did some drugs

(16:09):
and went to therapy for 18 months.
Like at a place where you live and you work and you have group
sessions. And, and so I did, I wanted to
go to art school and I didn't get in.
And I then decided to go to dance school where I did
choreography and also again performing arts, but I loved it

(16:29):
and I had my own dance company. And then kind of when the kids
came along, I stopped doing all that and focused more on music
with my husband. And then I got back into theater
again. And then COVID happened and I
was like, you know what? I just like I, I think I want to
come more back to me. So, you know, just drawing this

(16:51):
arch of, you know, expressing myself, but getting feedback
from people. And then now being older, I'm 48
now, not really needing that anymore and just being able to
be creative because I want to becreative and not needing
anything from anybody. Right.
So not needing Oh my God, that was that was so good or that

(17:14):
even if it wasn't good, like just having this like external
validation, sure. And so that's I've really been
enjoying. And the other thing I have to
say is the way I created in my earlier life was always a lot of
inspiration from pain or like from experiences that might not

(17:36):
be the nicest experiences, you know, doing drugs or
relationship issues and having like really codependent
relationships, just kind of heavier stuff.
And that was really like, wow, just like writing songs and, you
know, lyrics and creating dance pieces and choreographies and
like having so much to, to like,I'm really glad I had all those

(17:59):
experiences because it gave me like 10 years of material, you
know, just like, and I never thought that it is possible to
create art from a positive holistic place.
That might sound really ridiculous, but I did not know
that that was possible. I thought it had to be like,

(18:19):
I'll see, you know, music. When you listen to music, like a
lot of music is like, it's just like it's coming from pain,
right? Well look, if Chris Martin
hadn't had so many break UPS in his life, Coldplay would be
rubbish. Yeah, exactly.
See, it's break UPS or you know.Sorry, Chris.
Whatever. And it yeah, it.
Comes from like kind of a darkness, right?

(18:40):
Yeah. And so only now, since actually
at the beginning when I started painting with acrylics, I listen
to it because I am a Radiohead fan and a Tom Yorke fan.
I'm going to see Tom Yorke in a month.
Excellent. In Sydney, I'm going to see him
in real life listening to Radiohead like over and over

(19:00):
again and kind of just like really dark songs and painting
and kind of still being in that thing of like, that's where I
used to be. Like that's how you create.
And I mean, if you look at my art now, it's not very dark.
No, no, no. It's like it's somehow I just
said there was this change whereI didn't have to listen to music
to to give me the thing to create anymore.

(19:24):
Like it was like I had to listento the music and the music was
like, it was here and then it just went here without coming
through my head. And then at some point I was
listening to different music andthen I didn't have to listen to
music. And then what I never thought I
could do was to listen to a podcast while I'm painting
because I needed the music to give me the thing that I needed
to create. And so slowly over the last

(19:46):
year, it's changed and, and I can like, I can get the thing
from myself, which is like, wow,that's so cool.
And it's, and it's not a dark thing.
It's just like, it's just me. I'm listening to myself and I'm
like. What?
But like, it's just just taking the thing that's me that makes

(20:06):
me and then putting that out there and knowing that it's big
and loud, which was the name of my last exhibition loud.
And I'm like not having to make an excuse for yourself.
That was a really long answer toyour question.
No, but you've taken us on a journey.
And I think what I'm taking away, Alex, is very much you

(20:34):
talk, we're talking about external validation.
So you would make, you know, youwould, you would perform for
that validation externally. But what you've just told us
about is how you would take inspiration externally inwards.
So you're bringing all this darkstuff in and then projecting

(20:55):
that out into the world and you're no longer doing that.
That's a beautiful thing. Yeah, and I think it has to do
with age very much, although I do look at young people today
also, my son, my oldest son who's 22 and my 2 younger kids,
18 and 16. And I'm like, wow.
Like I think today's young people are different than when
we were young. I don't know if it's got to do

(21:17):
with the Internet, all the information, but like they are
just so much more positive. And and like they had, they know
all this stuff, like, you know, I just stuff that I feel like I
had to figure out so many things.
But when they when they were at school, they were doing
mindfulness in the morning. When we were at their age at

(21:38):
school, teachers were throwing black border raises at.
Us. Yeah, exactly.
But we turned out OK. Yeah.
So, but the more fundamentally something we were talking about
before, which was, you know, we were talking about different
academic disciplines and, but how knowledge is moved on how,

(22:00):
how, how we're actually much more in touch with ourselves and
how things like things like vulnerability, it's, it's OK to
be vulnerable now. Whereas perhaps 20 years ago
people like you and me would not, you know, we, we had to

(22:20):
find other ways to cope with with things rather than be able
to just talk about it. Yeah.
And I think like a lot of things, if I would have known
them when I was 16 or 18, I'm just like, yeah, it's so much
easier. So yeah, I think it has to do
with age. Me also.
You're going to be 50 soon. God not caring.

(22:43):
I mean, this has to do with with, you know, going into
perimenopause, hormones changingand actually not needing to, not
having the, the urge to have to like tend to everybody.
But like it's actually a hormonal thing where the
hormones change where you're, that's why all these women in
their 50s people are like, they're so like arrogant and

(23:04):
egotistical. It's actually just the hormones
that change and you don't well, like, I don't feel like doing
that. Like I'd love to, but I don't
want to. This is my end.
So like just doing what I feel is right for me and just doing
what I want and not what I thinkI need to do to get your
approval or you know that. And if I would have learned or

(23:25):
somebody would have sat me down,I mean, obviously you're not
going to do that when you're 18,but just be like, hey, it's OK
to say no. Like saying no, I only learned
that like 8 or 9 years ago. Like I can say no, what the
fuck? So there was this this theater
project that I was going to do and it was going to be paid and
full time and everything for a few weeks.

(23:47):
And then COVID happened and thenthey cancelled it and then they
were going to pick it up again. But it was going to be profit
share. It was going to be a different
director. It's just all going to be
different weekend rehearsals andstuff.
And I, I didn't want to do it, but I didn't even like, and then
I thought about it and I was like, I actually, I can tell
them no, like I would have neverdone that years ago.
I would have just said yes because like this really good

(24:09):
company. Of course I got to say yes even
though I'd, even though I'd rather spend time going
skateboarding with my kids or whatever.
But then I said no. And I was like, and I just like
I grew, you know, And I was like, what else can I say no to?
And I was like, why didn't anybody teach me to say no when
I was 18? Like, I think it's so great to
say no to things because saying no to somebody else means saying

(24:31):
yes to yourself. Even just that sentence, like
saying no, it doesn't mean it's not like you're saying yes to
yourself by saying no to some, like just this.
And I can see that my kids are learning that now.
Yeah, like they're 1618 and 22. I'm like wow.
So how do you say yes to yourself here in the studio?

(24:52):
In the studio or in like the arts practice generally?
Well, yeah, like I suppose what I'm trying to segue to is, is to
what is your practice now as a visual artist?
Because we're talking about things that are much more
fundamental than the the act of picking up a paintbrush.
But it but that what we've just been what you've just been

(25:14):
talking about, Alex actually enables you to pick up the
paintbrush and then to do something with the paintbrush
that no one else does. And so I guess I asked a very
generic a general questions, notgeneric a general question there
as a just to see where we would go with it.
But I think more specifically, it's it's OK.

(25:37):
So you three years ago, you decided you had a smaller
studio, you had a that constrained your practice, you
wanted to grow your practice. You now have this space, you
have these huge canvases on the wall.
And so you're saying yes to yourself, giving yourself the
time to, to make, to create to. So what does that look like on a

(26:02):
daily basis? Are you in here every day?
I come in here like maybe 3 or 4* a week.
It depends on what I'm doing. Like I just did a Commission for
the Clarence Jazz Festival, so Iwas in here for four weeks quite
intensively I think. I think what this space enables
me to do is do what I do in life, but also do it with art.

(26:26):
So like trying to go with the flow, do what feels good, don't
do what doesn't feel good, do what comes easy and do what is
fun. Like just if I'm having a good
time, then I have to contradict myself because within painting a
painting, there's always the really shit phase where it's
like, there's just this, you know the thing, there's this

(26:47):
like there was a meme where there's like in the books, they
do this, you do a project and it's like, Oh my God, this is
going to be so great. It's amazing.
It's amazing. You know, it goes up and then it
goes, what the fuck am I doing? Oh my God, I hate this.
I'm never going to do this again.
Oh, it's not that bad. Oh, I love it, right, That does
happen. But I feel like coming in here
and especially after having so much external stuff in my life
and needing people around me andhaving lots of people and doing

(27:09):
lots of things outside of me. I know many people talk about
how isolating the art practices and you know, you're not around
a lot of people, but like, I love it.
I'm in here by myself, but I have all these people outside.
I can go make a coffee in the tin kitchen, I can chat to
people, but I actually really love just spending time with
myself and challenging myself and kind of watching how I think

(27:32):
when I'm creating something. So I don't, I kind of sometimes
envy people who are like, they've got all the post its on
their wall and they're like, they have a plan and they're
like studying something like, oh, I'm gonna do this project.
And and like they and they like they know what they're doing.
I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
I never know what I'm doing. And they're like, oh, like they

(27:54):
have a concept, you know, like there's a concept and they have
all the post its and like my studio neighbor, she's amazing.
She's like, I'm like, oh, she's always like working out stuff.
She's work. And I'm just like, OK, you know,
I just go and which is great because that's how I am.
But sometimes I do any that I'm like, oh, it's just so because I
love lists, really. I love to make lists and stuff,
but I can't do it in my art because it just comes from here.

(28:15):
I cannot plan it. No, I'm not answering your
question. No, no, I can really relate to
what you're saying. You said something earlier about
how just follow, you know, you're heading down this path in
the universe will take you down another.
Yeah, my photography is exactly the same.
I can't plan a shoot. I can't, I can't pre visualize

(28:36):
anything. I put myself in a, in a, in a,
in a place, usually on a street somewhere and I just start
following my gut and the minute my head comes into it, I stop
and I and I, my body wants to goin this direction, so I will
follow it. And that's so.
You follow the body. Yeah.

(28:57):
So this, that's what you're telling me is, is, you know, I
asked you what, what does it look like on a daily basis?
But actually what you're describing more as your whole
way of being as an artist. It's not just here in this
studio. It's not just when you pick up a
paintbrush, it's it's, it's if you follow your gut, if you

(29:18):
follow a feeling, it's going to lead to lead somewhere and
you're comfortable with that. Yeah, and but not have not
always been. So that's the discussion we had
before. You know, that's kind of a a
recent, in the recent years in my 40s thing.
And I think that's really what interests me about creating art
and also talking to other artists.

(29:40):
You know, a lot of them are muchyounger, you know, like in their
mid late 20s people who I know here in Hobart.
And sometimes I feel like, oh, is what I'm saying sounding a
bit like I don't want to sound like I don't know what's the
word. I feel like people already know
this. But then I realize when I talk
about this kind of stuff that the younger people don't know

(30:00):
this. And what I mean is talking about
like what you were saying before, like this, having the
vulnerability or being your authentic self or not having to
like just do what you want to doand like don't listen to the
other people. And like just this way of living
that I'm like, oh, they're actually glad to hear me say
that, like, because I mean it ina good way, you know?

(30:21):
But I just think, well, they allknow this.
I'm talking about stuff that everybody, but no, apparently
not everybody like, and I've only just learned this, but I'm
really passionate about just this subject and this theme of
like, how can I be my true version of myself, which is
scary. And how can I show that in my
art? Because that is the only way I

(30:41):
think that art is going to like that people are going to connect
with the art when they see like,ah, like it's come from here and
it's gone on there. And then people see that they
see it and they're like, oh, I like that because that person is
in touch with themselves and I want to be in touch with myself
because that's what everybody wants, right?
We all want to be happy with whowe are.

(31:02):
And I feel like the art that we connect with comes from people
who in some way or another deal with this subject, right?
Like how can we connect to this deep part within us in different
ways, you know, but I, but, but I think that's like the essence
of, of creating art is like, howcan I?

(31:24):
And I don't think about how can I put on canvas what I'm
feeling, but I just try to not think and, and paint.
And even when I hate it, which happens in every painting, at
some point, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing?
I can't believe I this is so bad.
And then just keep going. And then in the end it's like,

(31:44):
ah, and it's just that that whole thing is like parallel to
like, you know, personal development.
I don't know what the word wouldbe.
But I think I mean, what you talked about, yeah, I would call
it life experience. So the benefit of life, of your
life experiences bring you to this moment where you're
actually able to push through that dip in the graph.

(32:08):
You know, that point where you are, you really hate what you're
doing, but you'll keep pushing through.
There's something that you've experienced in your life,
whatever sphere that says to that, you know, it's going to be
OK if I keep going. And I think that not everybody
is able to, to, to do that. I know, you know, with my

(32:29):
photography, I'd never showed, Inever showed my photography for
years. Wow.
It's only very recently that it's actually gone out into the
world and. What changed for you to make you
to to? To really get in, get in touch
with who Tim is. Yeah.
That's so fascinating. What were the blockages?
What was stopping me? And and so perhaps when you are,

(32:52):
you know, the, the, when you're hating it, you're in that
moment. Do you know what keeps you
going? Sometimes I'm like, how can I
not remember that this happens every fucking time?
Because I should just get to that point and be like, yeah, I
know this happens every time. You can believe, you know, I
should really, but it's hard to believe that every time.

(33:13):
It's like a huge frustration andit's like, you know, like, and
every time it happens again, andyou'd think that after that
happening so many times, I don'tknow.
What makes me keep going is thatI know I'm going to get out the
other end, but it's not fun. It's not fun.
And I think that's also what you're saying.
Like it's important for people generally in life just to learn

(33:34):
that. I feel like today that's not
something that's learnt as much anymore because everything's so
easy and there's all this like, you know, I don't want to create
any conflicts or problems with anybody, but like learning that
you're going to come out the other end and you're not going
to die. Like, you know, in difficult
situations, like that's what makes you, you then getting

(33:54):
through that or like there was this great example of my
daughter when she was younger and her tooth was coming out so
great. I was just watching the
situation unfold. I'm like, Oh my God, this is
like the best life lesson. She came downstairs and I was on
the couch. She's like, you know, she
couldn't get the tooth out. And she stomped back upstairs.
And I could hear her in front ofthe mirror and she's like, oh,
she came back downstairs and I was just sitting there.

(34:16):
And she knew it was because she had lost the tooth before.
She knew it was going to end. She knew it was going to come
out. It's not going to last forever.
She knew it was shit, but she knew she had, like, there was
nothing else for her to do but to go through it, right?
And so I was watching her up anddown.
I'm like, I'm being frustrated and going up and wiggling again.

(34:36):
And she didn't ask me for help, you know, which is great.
Like, I'm just like, yes, you like, like you can do.
Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, just try not to, you
know, be too involved. And then she got it out and she
was like, you know, this is likeachievement, right?
And I was like, this, this is, this is it.
This is what? This is what happens in the
painting. This is in life.
This is like, we all need to know that that's OK.

(35:00):
It's OK to be. You're not going to die like
you're feeling in this shit. It's really bad.
But if you know that there's an end, I know that the painting in
the end, I know that feeling of suddenly the painting looks at
me and it's like, and you're like, Oh my God, Oh my God.
That's like now it's working. So like if we all can just
remember that, you know? And I feel like if kids, they

(35:22):
don't get enough opportunities today because everything gets
fixed for them or parents want to fix things for the kids.
I'm generalizing, but I just feel like it's, it's more
difficult today to teach this tokids, but if like that's just
what we need to learn. And if we have that, then it
doesn't matter what comes because we know I can get
through this. It's tough, it's shit, but I'm
going to come out the other end and something's going to have

(35:42):
changed and I'm going to have a painting or I'm going to have
this experience or I'm going to have a new friend or I'm going
to, you know, whatever. I'm going to have learned how to
deal with this situation and that's so cool.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I mean, for me, I, yeah, I
mean, you said, you know, took you took you a long time before
you could say no mean the same. But but also, but I think for

(36:06):
me, some of those things you've just been talking about, it took
me many years to to to figure that out.
And it was through photography that I was able to find some
self-expression and start to understand a little bit more
about myself. And I suppose that's what art
can do. And when I mean a couple of
things you've said there about, you know, different generations.

(36:29):
And I think like I, I watch so much YouTube and because I'm
just fascinated in it as a, as amedium and how it influences
contemporary culture as a sociologist, which we were
talking about before. But the, my point is that
there's, there's this thing called the YouTube new wave.

(36:54):
What's that new wave YouTube? It is predominantly young people
who are incredibly expressive emotionally and engage us in
their stories on a very, very deep level and make beautiful
cinematic videos in which they are able to do the sorts of

(37:15):
things that that that you have been telling us about.
And so the interesting thing forme is, is when you've got people
in their late teens and their early 20s who are using digital
medium artistically to do that stuff, it that gives me some

(37:38):
hope for the world because they're getting through that,
that they're getting through those hurdles that were in my,
that stopped me, that blocked mefor 40 years.
But that's what I was saying before, exactly what you're
saying. Like I look at my kids and I'm
like my 22 year old and I'm like, wow, you're like, you're
so healthy and like, you know, like you're, you're being

(37:59):
objectively thinking about things and you're like making
good decisions and you're like expressing yourself and having
healthy relationships. Like where was I when I was 22?
That's exactly what you're saying.
It's, it's amazing how the youngpeople today, like, are so much
further than we were. I think there's other things
that are missing. Yeah, but it's always like that.
Like I sometimes I think about, you know, my, my childhood or

(38:22):
when my kids were young and how it's changed now just with
phones and everything. But there's so many positives
like through Instagram, I'm a bit addicted to Instagram.
I have to say. I've met so many cool artists.
It has been, you know, 20 years ago, this wouldn't have been
possible to, it would not have been possible for me to create
art like this 20 years ago. Because now it's like you can go

(38:43):
on the Internet. I didn't study art.
There was a, there was a sentence somewhere where it was
talking about an artist and it said in the in the artist bio,
it said so and so is unencumbered by a something,
something art degree or whatever.
I was like, oh, I really like that word, you know, like

(39:04):
unencumbered by a professional art degree.
I was like, I want to steal that, but it like I can't
because it's, it's too fancy theword.
But isn't that so cool? Like I feel like 20 years ago or
I don't know how many years ago you had to go to art school, you
had to kind of go down this pathto become an artist.
And now you can just kind of figure it out, which also is

(39:25):
probably part of my personality,how I do things.
But like you can just go on the Internet and you can do like a
course if you want to. You don't have to go to uni.
You can just you can just pick and choose what you want.
Like, so I think we talked aboutthis before we started
recording, like people who want to get into the arts and like
just fucking do it. Like you don't have to go to
uni. You don't have to do a course.
You just get your buy some fucking pencils or whatever.

(39:48):
Like just just do the thing. Then use the use left.
I don't know, stuff that's laying around, like just do it.
Just do it. And you can get inspiration from
people on Instagram, on YouTube,you can message artists like
I've messaged people. I'm like, Oh my God, they're
never going to answer. And I'm like, like asking stuff,
they're answering me. I'm like.
Like, I found out so many thingsthrough asking people, like ask

(40:11):
people, they will help you. Mostly people are good people
and they like people who are, you know, established.
They will help you. They will give you information.
And I think now is the time to start being an artist if you
want to be. It's so much easier than 20
years ago or 10 years ago. Like you don't have to go to

(40:33):
uni, you don't. No, no.
Well, yeah, just yesterday I waswatching, you know, watching a
podcast. It was on YouTube.
Rick Rubin. Oh.
Yeah. And Rick was talking about
working with LL Cool J and Beasties and basically how he
was in his dorm room at ColumbiaUniversity and they were coming

(40:56):
to him and he didn't know the right way of doing things.
O they just made it U as they went along.
And that's what created new sound.
That's that's where the innovations came.
Not knowing what you're doing. Yeah, if you know the rules,
you've got to be really bold andbrave to to break those rules.
But if you don't know what the rules are, you're just going to

(41:16):
go. You're going to have a free
reign. Exactly.
And my middle child, Jasper, he's 18.
He said a few weeks ago, I was like, I'm so impressed that he
said that. It made me so happy to hear him
say that. He said, you know, I think I'm I
think I'm what did he say? Because he my kids all make
music and stuff. And so he's recording songs and

(41:38):
plays the guitar in his room. And then he some, I don't
remember what the discussion was, but he says, you know, I
think, I think it's good that I don't really know how to play
guitar because it makes me a better guitar player.
Like I was, I'm paraphrasing, but I was like, yes, like just
yes. He got the, the idea of not,
it's good to not know what you're doing.

(41:59):
That's what they do in companies, right?
Sometimes like people who are like, you have all these people
who know what they're doing, butthey'll bring somebody in who
doesn't know about that because they're going to have an idea
that they weren't thinking about.
And they're like, oh, because they don't know what the fuck
they're doing. So I like, I say this all the
time. I don't know what the fuck I'm
doing. I'm just doing something and
having fun. But I love it.
I love not knowing what I'm doing because I don't, I didn't

(42:20):
go to art school. I don't know anything about.
I don't know the famous artists.I, you can put me in a museum
and I'll be like, I, I don't know who that's by or that's by.
I mean, I, you know, I know the Mona Lisa, but like, I really, I
don't know the famous artists. I don't know the terminology for
stuff. I don't, I don't know the
things. OK, so yeah, before just sort of
switching on the cameras, I was saying to you, look, I don't

(42:43):
know what contemporary art is. And you said to me, well, I
don't either. I don't know if you were just
being facetious, but so I have been wanting to ask you about,
you know, what is contemporary art, but I'm not going to ask
you that. Question.
I don't. I don't ask me.
I think because the better question is, is OK if you don't
know what you're doing and you've only been a visual artist

(43:05):
for three years because this. Really only really for like a
year and a half there you go. Before that was like just kind
of. But then you are getting
commissioned to make art, as you've told us how.
How does this happen? Because there are, there are
going to be people just like me listening right now, watching,
who are going to be asking, well, how does that happen?

(43:28):
If I can just, you know, if I don't need to go to art school,
if I, if I can just make, how doI get my, how do, how do I even
begin to live the artist's life?The.
Answer is not in how to create art.
The answer, as you know we've noticed in this whole
conversation is I'm talking moreabout, you know this.
The answer, I think is to be yourself 100%.

(43:55):
So like do what you want to do. And that if if you always come
back to that, if you always likeevery time you do something is
like, does this work for me? Like saying no to things like
not selling yourself out, like, oh, I have this job that I could
do. I could do some design for
something, I don't know. And it's in like watercolor.

(44:16):
I don't like watercolors, but I'm going to do it because it's
paid well. No, like do the thing that feels
good for you and be your authentic self.
I think that just like it, it, it repels the people who like,
there's a lot of people who don't like me.
They're like, you're too much, you're too big.
I'm like, fine, you know, I don't need everybody to like me,
but but then there's the people who are like, Ah, I love hanging

(44:38):
out with you, like I love your art because and they really like
it because it's authentic. So I think being your authentic
self sounds so cheesy, but beingyour authentic self and having
that in every area of your life,like have it in your art.
Do what you want to do, what youhave fun doing.
If it's not fun, don't do it. If you're painting something and
it's, I mean it, you know, within the painting, as we

(44:59):
talked about before, you have those struggles.
But generally like I have fun all the time.
Like I just have a fucking blast.
I have a party, it's fun. I'm like, you know, it's great.
I don't want to do something where I have to suffer.
So I think if somebody wants to create something, if you keep
coming back to that point of is this me?

(45:21):
Even if it's scary, like it willbe scary.
And I think the younger you are,the more scary it will be, as
you know, like we didn't know how to do that when we were
younger. And, and also like, if usually
if something's scary, that's a sign that it's maybe something
you should do. Like if it's the scary, not like
it's not good for me scary, but scary.

(45:42):
Can I do this? I'd like to do it, but I, I
don't think I can. That's like when you should say
yes and like challenge yourself.So I think challenging yourself
to do the things that scare you,like jazz Commission.
I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
Yep. You know, like just saying yes
to things and then you figure itout later.
It's like because you can't see how you're going to get there,
but if you just start going whenyou're here, you're like, then

(46:03):
you can see it because you're closer, but you just got to get
started. So I think just just starting,
just doing the things and keep readjusting to.
Does this work for me? Is it fun for me?
And is it me or am I creating something or being something or
acting or talking in a way that is to impress other people or
to, to something out here? It just has to be in here.

(46:26):
And I think then all of the art,regardless of what it is or if
it's photography or whatever, that will all just like fall
into place as long as it comes from the right place.
And so I've just been applying for stuff and like I got the
Commission. I've just what I wanted to say
was I apply for stuff and then Idon't get a lot of stuff.

(46:47):
Like I get a lot of emails like sorry, no, but to me it's like
that was exposure. Somebody saw my paintings, some
great jury people, they and if they see my stuff somewhere else
and somewhere else would be like, Oh yeah, she might be the
right person for that. So even if I get the what's it
called when they say no rejection, rejection, I don't

(47:08):
care because it's like it was itsomebody saw my stuff, right.
So I think if you can just thinkthings like that, not need to
have to get into things, but just put it out there where it
feels right and just go for it. And then stuff will just happen.
And to not judge yourself. Like not just like I didn't get
into that. I really wanted that.
Well, you didn't get that because maybe it wasn't the
right time or it wasn't supposedto be.

(47:29):
You didn't not get it because you were supposed to get it.
You didn't get it because you weren't supposed to get it
because something else is coming.
Yeah. And it's.
Yeah. And so you take your ego out of
that process because when I havebeen rejected as an as an
academic, academics get rejectedall the time.

(47:50):
You you submit papers to journals.
Yeah. And then they.
Yeah, the feedback, it can be they they can be brutal, Yeah
and yeah. Or they don't look at it because
it's not something that's like, you know, falls in line with
something that has nothing to dowith you.
But those who are the most successful are those who just
just let it go. Yeah.

(48:12):
You know, work on it because no matter how brutal the feedback
is, they do want you to publish it, send it back, and you just
keep going, which is what you just described.
And I think that is a life lesson no matter what profession
you're in. But I do think in the arts, it
can be especially brutal. Maggie talked about this so

(48:33):
Maggie Jeffries a few weeks ago.And I did want to come back to
Maggie because I wouldn't be sitting here right now.
Yeah. If it hadn't have been for you
listening to Maggie's podcast. Yeah.
And you know Maggie, Yeah. So, yeah.
Tell us about that connection there then.
Oh, so I think in in Hobart, it's like it's such a great art
scene. I don't like, there's this whole

(48:53):
group of them who were at uni together kind of with Maggie.
And I think you're going to interview George and yeah, all
those people. I don't know them very well, but
like just going to exhibitions and like seeing people over
again. And Maggie came to visit here at
the studio. I'm just, I'm really like, I
want to see everybody's studio. I want somebody to just do like

(49:14):
video, like what you do, but like, also with like, you know,
just all the all the artists here in, in, in, in Tazia, like,
just like, what materials do youuse?
What are the pencils? Like, I want to see what you
use. Yeah.
So I like to just do like littlestudio visits or I'll just ask
people like, I mean, I don't know them, but I'm just like,
hey, can, can can I come to yourstudio?
That's great. I think I just, I just, you

(49:36):
know, through Instagram And then, well, I think George was
the first person who when I started painting, I saw his
stuff and I was like, like, I really, really, really like his
stuff. And then I just started
messaging him on Instagram. And then you kind of get to know
each other a little bit and justlike, yeah, see each other at
galleries or kind of support each other and then.
Because that's the other side of, yeah, you can have a

(49:57):
practice in your own studio or in a space all on your own and
keep making and you can keep submitting and keep getting
rejected. But if you don't have that
community around you, if you don't have those connections
where you've actually can realise that everyone else is
going through the same stuff andyou're there for each other and
actually you, you are interestedin each other's work and you

(50:18):
celebrate. I think it's like a, like, I
think all the, because the, you know, the people who've been to
uni together, they have that I, I wouldn't consider myself like
I have, I, I know people and I'mlike in touch with people.
But it's not like, I think for the people who have been at uni
together, they have a really nice, like the, you know, been
together for a few years and they have this like what Maggie

(50:40):
was talking about in her interview where they have like
crit sessions and you look at each other's work and it's like,
I don't really do that with people.
I just have more like just let'shave a catch up and talk about
things, but not like the art, kind of looking at the art and
then kind of giving each other feedback.
And it's interesting because I was thinking about this the
other day when I was listening to your interview with Maggie,

(51:01):
how she said that that was such an important part.
And I agree, but I don't like, Ithink it depends on the person
because for example, I didn't gothrough art, you know, uni.
I think the community part is really important.
That's true. But for me, I don't want.

(51:21):
I feel like if people would giveme feedback on my work, it would
make me behave differently when I'm creating after that.
Yeah, I gotcha. So I really don't want anybody
to tell me anything about my artuntil it's in the gallery and
then it's done. But it will influence me like

(51:44):
even if I know I don't want to do what you like, like I'm not
going to want to do something that you love.
You know, it's, I feel like likeeven, just even that, like I
think I, I really, in order for me to do what's really truly me,
I have to not have anybody tell me what they think or have
somebody, you know, oh, you know, the contrast or I mean, I

(52:07):
don't know this, you know, this top part my like what Megan was
saying, Oh, the eye goes here 1st and hear that.
That's interesting to hear. Once I've created something
like, Oh, this is how my eye moves through the painting.
I don't want to hear that while I'm creating, it's going to make
me do something different. It's going to make me want to
make it nice for you or to adjust to that.
But really then I'm not going tofind where I'm going.
And I really, really, really want to go where I'm going.

(52:28):
I don't want to go where other people want me to go because
that's what's going to make me, you know, not better than
others. That's not what I'm trying to
say. But like, just be really
authentic. And what's going to draw people
to my art is if it's me, right? And then people are going to
hate it because people are goingto love it.
And, and I don't, I don't care because the people who hate it,
they, you know, they might not want to connect with that part

(52:51):
of themselves. And that's fine.
But I'm not going to find that if like me personally, if I have
anybody telling me like doing a crit, you know, So it's
interesting. I really relate to this I the
going back to. How it with your photography?
Well, no, with so I like you. I keep that out of my
photography. I as as an academic, what you
get is you get these reviews back and they say, they say I

(53:12):
don't like that sentence. Can you say this instead?
Hang on a minute, you know, like, no, it's not you.
But there there are reviewers who are very good who, who, who
will say, well, actually my eye is drawn to this section of the
paper. And, and, and so, you know,
perhaps you could, you know, tryto develop that a little bit

(53:34):
more. You know, that's good.
That's a good crit, but I don't like this.
Could you do it this way? That's not a great crit.
I don't do commissions. I'm OK.
But like, people talk about commissions, like the jazz
Commission that I'm doing, I made four paintings for them,
and they could choose one. When they asked me if I would do
for the artwork for the Jazz Festival, I was like, yeah, but

(53:55):
I can't do. I can't do it if you know what
you want me to do. Like if you're like, we want a
painting that's this and this color.
And it kind of has this in it, and it kind of has that in it.
Like I can't do it. You've touched on so many.
I mean it, what it these interviews, they blow me away
every time I, I, I come in. The less research I do in

(54:16):
advance, the better, the better the interview.
Honestly, I came here knowing very little about your work,
only what I've seen on Instagram, a couple of
conversations with yourself. We haven't talked about
painting. We've talked about being an
artist, what it is to be an artist and how that relates to
to your life. And I think that there are so

(54:39):
many life lessons that we can all take away.
I mean, I am wrapping up, but itjust feels like like we've
covered all the bases. Well, we've covered what like
I'm interested in. I don't, you know, like that's
like that's the stuff that I'm really passionate about is what
we've been talking about. I suppose the only point I

(55:01):
didn't make then was was, you know, we've talked about so many
things, but the generosity of that community that you are part
of, you know, you don't feel like you're right and on the
inside of it, but you're part ofsomething and being part of
something. Yeah, you're not.
You don't want feedback while you're in progress.

(55:22):
But what you do want is that's, as you said, you know, you want
to understand how they do it andthat's going to help you
understand how you do it and, and whether that's just as a as
a counterpoint or whether it's actually as a way to inform your
practice and, and riff off each other.
I. Don't and I think I think it's a
great, a great community we havedown here.

(55:45):
I mean, I don't know all the people, but like the people that
I've connected with it's and I find that's very Tasmanian
anyway, like people are so open to share.
Like, I would just ask people like, can I come visit your
studio? And they'll be like, yeah.
And I get to ask them questions and just like, look at their
art. And like, everybody's so open

(56:06):
and, and generous with their information because that's what
I like about the visual arts. It's like people aren't like
protective about their information.
It's not like, well, I can't tell you this otherwise you can
steal my strategy or my way of doing things.
It's like, because it's not possible.
So people just share information.
They're not, they're not, you know, kind of like this about

(56:29):
it. But it's like, yeah, I use this,
but I'm like, oh, what do you, you know, it's just like so, so
generous with their information,with how they do things, you
know, connections. Like I had when I had my solo
exhibition in April at at the Social Gallery in Salamanca.
There was a guy and somebody waslike, oh, ask him about how he

(56:49):
did his media, his press kit. And he's like, oh, I'll send you
what I did. And then you can look at, you
know, and you can kind of take, I was like, that would not
happen in a different world. Like, you know, he sent me his
e-mail that he sent out and he'slike, Oh yeah.
And, you know, go look up this and this and gave me some tips.
And I was like, this is amazing.So I think that kind of
everybody just kind of joins in on that.
So everybody is in this bubbler,in this mood of like helping

(57:13):
each other out. So then, yeah, it just kind of
everybody does it with everybody.
I mean, everybody I've met till now has just always been super
nice and helpful. So I think that really helps.
Yeah. Well, you've been incredibly
generous with your time and energy, Alex.
I mean. It's been so much fun.
Yeah, good. I'm glad.
Sometimes I'm like, keep talkingabout stuff that's in here and

(57:34):
not that, but I think no, no, but that's OK.
No, this is really powerful stuff.
You know, I, I do this podcast firstly thanks to the generosity
of, of, of every artist I I meet, and then also the
generosity of connecting me withother artists as Maggie has done
with, with, with you. But I think, yeah, no, look,

(57:59):
there are so many. You know, I do this because I
want to learn. I want to learn how I can
actually feel confident and calling myself an artist.
You go after all these interviews, you can know all the
things. You know all the things.
But there are so many other people out there who want to
want to learn as well. So look, thank you for this.

(58:20):
How can people find you? What is coming up?
Where can they find your work? So on Instagram I'm Alex with a
KSALEKS, Alex Crossen on Instagram and my website
isalexcrossen.com Yes I just gota new sexy website that my
husband made for me. I have coming up a residency

(58:44):
next week which is going to be great fun working on something
for the Jazz Festival. I have created some works for
the Clarence Jazz Festival whichis going to be in February.
So all of the advertisement for that is going to have my artwork
in some way. I don't know yet how.
I'm excited to see that and I'm going to have a solo exhibition
in Devonport Regional Art Gallery which I haven't been to

(59:06):
yet. I'm going to go visit them in
two weeks. I have a solo exhibition there
from February 1st till mid Marchand yeah, couple other things
lined. It's just flowing.
It's like if you just go, if youjust stick to the to the thing
and just keep doing what's good,it just, you know, and then it's
like, I couldn't have imagined Icouldn't have made this happen.

(59:26):
It's just like, oh, here you go.Oh, here you go.
It's like it just, it just happens.
Just it's easy, you know? Just focus on the work.
Yeah, just do the fun thing, just to have fun, have fun.
I think that's it. Like just enjoy what you're
doing and then things will and be patient and then things will
just fall in your lap, I think. You heard it here first

(59:50):
everyone. Alex, thank you so much.
Thank you very much. It's been great.
Thanks for listening to this episode of Connect Curate
Create. I hope you found inspiration and
insights that you can apply to your own creative work.
For highlights and links, check out the show notes.
And be sure to follow us on yourfavorite podcast player so you

(01:00:12):
never miss an episode. TuneIn next time as I continue
to explore life and work in the arts.