May 27, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode, I revisit my conversation with artist and academic Dr Tony Curran about his vibrant abstract art, shaped by a deep interest in psychology, perception, and digital technology. We explore how Tony’s “attention machines” challenge the pace of modern life and invite a more mindful, immersive engagement with the world.
Tony reflects on the intersections between art and academia, the financial challenges of sustaining a creative career, and the collaborative energy behind his recent Collision exhibition. We also discuss his role as a mentor, and the ways he supports emerging artists to develop their own practices.
Themes: abstract painting, creative practice, psychology and art, digital attention, mentoring, regional artists, art and academia
🎙️ Connect Curate Create is a podcast about creative courage, community, and place-based storytelling in regional Australia.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to the podcast. This week we're sharing one of
my favourite episodes so far, part of our new series of recap
episodes. While we're busy producing new
content for the podcast, YouTubeand our brand new Patreon
channel. That's right, Connect, Curate,
(00:20):
Create is now on Patreon. It's a dedicated space to learn,
share, and grow together, and here's why we built it.
Do you feel like your art has been seen by the right people?
Are you getting the kind of feedback that actually helps you
grow? Do you have a space where you
can learn with other artists? Really get what you're doing?
(00:44):
If you answered no to any of these questions, Connect Curate
Create is here for you. Our Patreon community gets
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(01:04):
So if you're ready to grow your creative practice with the
support of a collaborative learning community, click the
Patreon link in the show notes and join us today.
Now let's get into another brilliant episode packed with
ideas and inspiration for your own creative journey.
Seeing that actually there's a career and a life that can be
(01:26):
made by being a weirdo, but being a really sophisticated
weirdo, and I couldn't think of a better weirdo to be.
The thing that you want to make sure that you do is always go in
the studio. So if there's anything in your
life that makes it harder for you to get into the studio, then
that's going to be the biggest challenge to your studio
practice. The best advice I ever got from
(01:49):
Richard Goodwin, who's one of mylecturers, was you just keep
doing it. You know it's something.
It's not like an athlete where you get worse at it.
As you get older, you get betterat it.
In this episode, I talked to Tony Curran, an artist based in
Launceston, TAS. Tony shares his journey from
studies in psychology and comic book making to his academic
(02:12):
research and collaborations which shape his current
practice. He offers deep insights into his
arts practice, the value of collaboration, and the power of
good mentoring. Be sure to check out the show
notes for highlights and links that you can use to shape your
own journey. And if you enjoy this episode,
don't forget to like, subscribe and tell your friends about
(02:35):
Connect, Curate, Create. Today I'm in Launceston with
Doctor Tony Curran, Artist Tony Hi.
Hey thanks for having me. No worries.
Nice. Thanks for making the time.
So Tony, just to kick off, you recently had an exhibition that
space here in Launceston. I wondered if you could tell us
(02:56):
about it and introduce us to your practice.
Sure. So the show you just mentioned,
it was called Collision and it'sjust come down recently and it
was at Launceston Art Centre Gallery, which is on Invermay
Road right opposite the university there.
There is a really beautiful little art supply store there
(03:18):
called Launceston Heart Centre, who also rent out the adjoining
space next door. But their tenants left and so
they opened up a pop up and it was really fantastic series of
short run pro programs that they're doing of exhibitions.
And I was in a group exhibition with the with the owner of the
(03:41):
of the show, Stefano Campo and Katie Barron, who's another
local Launceston artist as well.And the show was called
Collision. It was kind of, I think Stefan,
I think, yeah, I think Stefan just wanted to show with like to
have these three artists in the show because he kind of liked
(04:02):
them. We tossed around a few ideas
about what perhaps the relationships even were for the
show, but I think the impetus was essentially he liked my
work, he liked Katie's work, andhe he's making work as well.
But he's so often only seen as the business owner of Launceston
Arts Centre that it's a really good opportunity for him to
(04:23):
actually test out his work in a gallery space.
So we were thrilled to be involved in that and the more we
thought about the the potential intersections with our show.
My work is very pure abstraction, very colourful kind
of work. Stefano's is very gritty, sort
of Hawks to aerosol art, street art a little bit, but very much
(04:45):
in a language of painterly abstraction.
And then Katie Barron's so radically different from both of
us, but a super playful artist who can render, you know, junk
food exquisitely. And, you know, so in the in the
playfulness of her subject matter and the sincerity of
delivery of her painting and theskill levels involved, there was
(05:08):
just these kind of nice connections between our works
because the colourful language of my work is super playful and
wiggly and what I hope is jubilant.
And so with that, we thought, well, they're sort of the
practices are so different, but they're sort of connected that
Stefano came up with the show Collision.
So that was good fun. But yeah, my the works that I
(05:30):
had in that show were works thatI had exhibited at Griffith
Regional Art Gallery mid last year in a show called What a
Machine. And the idea of those works were
thinking about the way that artificial intelligence creates
(05:50):
new artworks and using the algorithmic processes that those
AI technologies undertake, usingthose as a way to sort of
simulate in the studio without actually having to encode it in
an AI framework. But thinking through the
iterative loops and processes that they go through to make new
(06:12):
work, such as having a sort of genetics of the work as sort of
series of properties of the works that then go through an
evolutionary process that's systematic that then outputs
these things. And then they get measured in an
ecosystem. And I know I always tend to lose
people as soon as I start talking about this, but it's the
(06:34):
the result is kind of a series of really energetic but also
hopefully beautifully combo composed and stable works where
there is a strange kind of latency to where where hopefully
(06:56):
a viewer comes to the work and and can't quite figure out what
shapes belong to which colour and which which shapes sit in
front of another. And there's a sort of exciting
and fun and beautiful object before them, but one that leaves
them a little quizzical and intrigued and gets them to keep
looking to try and resolve the unknown questions about it's
(07:20):
material manufacture and it's possible illusionistic
reference. Yeah.
And you know, I've asked you about your work before and you,
you, you've, you've shown me andyou've talked me through it and,
and I think that was before a time that where I'd actually
engaged with any form of AI knowingly.
(07:41):
And and since then, I've I have done more so and so even without
that reference, I was very, I found myself being drawn into
the work and it raising more questions than answers.
So I suppose the key question for all of us now is where did
it all begin? How?
How did you arrive at this this point?
(08:01):
Like in terms of these particular types of works and
this language of painting or? I was thinking about taking us
back right to, you know, when did, when, you know, what
inspired you to begin in the arts.
But yeah, if you, I mean if you think it's more appropriate to
just talk about this body of work for now, that'll be fine.
(08:24):
Yeah, they'll probably come connected to each other.
Tired of very musical upbringingand when I I never had any
interest or understanding or desire to to do art.
But when I was studying psychology, I did that as an
undergraduate degree. And I found that rather than
(08:47):
writing my lab reports, I was procrastinating by trying to
draw the psychological phenomenathat we were learning about in
say sensation and perception unit, for example, like how
stereoscopic or binocular visionworks and trying to figure out
can you draw experiments that you know?
(09:07):
So I became more interested in the drawing side of it.
But then I went on a my trip to Europe and was just in museums
where probably for the first time I'd felt really moved by
kind of what art can do and, andhow much diversity of really
great art it was. And I hadn't experienced that in
(09:27):
suburban Sydney growing up. And so from that experience, I
thought I was going to go and draw comic books and make a
living doing that. And found my way into art school
where there was a really fantastic lecture, Gary Castley,
who saw all the things that I was doing wrong in my drawing
(09:50):
and kind of pointed out how awesome those things were or the
potential for the things that were failing at the conventions.
And then looking at those thingsand then saying, OK, well, if
you elaborate on that, you find a sense of originality.
But it also opens up ambiguitiesand it opens up questions rather
(10:10):
than fixes meaning. And it enables a work to have
greater complexity and interest.So I, you know, for the first
time at art school, seeing people like him and people like
Richard Goodwin and Michael Essen showing, showing really,
you know, beautiful work, but then also dabbling into
(10:30):
conceptual terrain and then seeing that actually there's a
career and a life that can be made by being a weirdo, but
being a really sophisticated weirdo.
And I couldn't think of a betterweirdo to be so.
So then I guess after art school, I, you know, after
(10:52):
Psycho went to art school, had that experience.
After art school I, I kind of tried to exist outside of the
Academy for a little bit. I got a studio residency, I
remember at Fraser St. Studios and just had a really
great couple of years. But I had fallen in love and my
wife had gotten a really fantastic job opportunity in
(11:13):
regional NSW and we had a range of cities that that could have
been stationed in, but it had tobe regional NSW.
And so there at Wagga Wagga, there was a, there was an art
school there and I had been considering doing postgraduate
study because at the time it waslooking like the best arts
(11:36):
funding available, right? So I went in and completed an
honors degree there and quite quickly was offered marking work
and then teaching work as I enrolled in a PhD and continued
studies down that way. And, and in the PhD program, the
art and psychology thing continued to intersect.
(11:57):
And my PhD research was really around.
We have these conventional formsof art making, for example,
portraiture, but the way that weunderstand human subjectivity
has moved so far beyond what it was in 1850 when the National
Portrait Gallery was legislated in England.
But we're still held to those conventions.
(12:20):
And So what kinds of painting ormaking can we make that help us
to articulate the changed views in science and philosophy and
psychology around what what a self and what a person is?
And I found that part of the answer to that question was
paintings intersection with technology.
(12:41):
And so that sort of trajectory keep kept going after I finished
my PhD and I moved away from portraiture and was doing
collaborations with computer scientists at the ANU and poets
(13:02):
and print makers. And in that process distilled my
studio practice very much into alanguage of pure abstraction.
Partly so that it could navigateall these different types of
projects. But also because I started to
learn that the thing that was really fundamentally of interest
(13:23):
to me was a push pull between the feeling that an artwork can
convey of freedom either in the subject represented or in the
artistic expression of of the thing and constraints.
So I was interested in, you know, we live in such a
(13:43):
constrained age now. Everything's very accounted for
then, you know, the neoliberal sort of structures that we find
our way in, where we're constantly plugged in.
But that what we all yearn for is a kind of liberation, A
jubilant liberation from that. And so I've kept certain types
(14:07):
of formal elements in my work and used and limited those very
strategically so that the work very much becomes a push pull
between systems based art makingand that that feeling of the
thing being alive. So the thing simultaneously
being imprisoned but also risingabove its prison.
(14:27):
I was gonna. Try to draw a conclusion around
cognition and art, but your workis much deeper than trying to
understand cognition. I mean it's so you know the
intersection between psychology,but then you've talked about
more than human. Non human cognition was where I
(14:49):
was thinking but I'd be wrong. Yeah, it's that.
Well, in painting in particular,actually probably in all art
that we value, there's I think an attitude that an audience
brings to it when they Revere anartwork, they're revereing it as
(15:11):
a quasi person. So there is a, there is, I think
in the reverence of nature or the reverence in, in art or
craft or design, there is this reverence of this is not human,
but it's as human as human, you know, maybe more human than
human. I'm sure some people would save
(15:32):
an artwork before a person, depending on their moral
compass. But the paintings that I make, I
call them attention machines. And, and a big part of the
reason for that is that I, I want to give someone a stimulus
that on the one hand doesn't look that complex.
But then as soon as you're, I guess seduced into looking at
(15:54):
it, there is a great amount of complexity, visual complexity at
on offer that invites you to keep looking, which I guess is,
is the I think of these things as machines that get you to
cognate to cognate to, to get there and, and attend to
(16:15):
different parts of it and slow down your thinking and become
present, like aware of the present moments of the thing in
front of you. And that's really important to
me in this moment where I as much as everybody else, you
know, victim to quick thinking, the doom scrolling, the sort of
(16:39):
digital culture that we find ourselves in where we're invited
to make quick decisions and we rarely make good decisions when
we make quick decisions. But but a lot of how we're
invited to make quick decisions to rely on unconscious biases
and snap judgments, a lot of that is actually facilitated by
(16:59):
the technology and how the technology is designed.
And a lot of the design featureshave to do with formal elements
in painting, right? So, you know, I read
notification on an e-mail app. He's he's kind of telling you,
look here, something is necessary and important, you
know, and these things they, they almost feel like visual
(17:20):
itches on our devices and we have to sort of press on them
and answer them. So we're sort of getting more
and more visually conditioned inthese formal elements to feel
emotive. Lee around zone things like
colour and tone. So if we take away all colour
and just work on on tone, say our phones don't seduce us as
(17:41):
much. So I'm really interested in this
particular place that we're in where we have these attention
machines in our pockets, these things where we're invited to
direct our cognitive energy too constantly.
But the purpose of that is mostly so that we can press on
things on it, so that corporations can track our
(18:04):
interests and behaviours, develop psychographic profiles
to sell to advertisers, you know, so our our cognitive
energy has money making and value potential for a lot of
people. So I and then if we expended on
things that make us make those snap decisions, actually it
(18:26):
wears away our cognitive resources and then we don't have
as much time to spend on the things that are meaningful to
us. But if you can, and I'm really
interested in the in the research around present state
awareness where if someone spends more time attending to
the present moment and the things that are in front of us
(18:47):
rather than representations of things on our phones.
If we pay attention to the things in front of us, we
actually build our cognitive capacities so that we have more
focus and more mental and emotional resilience.
And we can, yeah, we can make better decisions and we don't
get depleted, right. So it's kind of like exercise
(19:10):
and a muscle versus junk food. And, you know, I'm kind of
interested in that discourse andhow art can make the world a
better place with the knowledge that artworks are there here and
now in the present moment. And if we pay attention to it,
then they can actually help us be better people.
Yeah. You mentioned you're interested
(19:30):
in the research. You did your PhD, you are an
academic. And so I guess coming back to to
that, you apply an academic lensto your work.
You talked about some of your collaborations with people
across different academic disciplines or different
practices completely. So yeah, how how does that, how
(19:58):
do you think your work has changed over time as a
consequence of applying more of an academic lens to it?
Yeah, for me, that's a bit of a chicken and egg thing, I think.
I think my my interests were there a long time ago.
So I've got these kind of lowbrow interests like I still,
(20:18):
you know, music, pop music, house music and put things in
for my painting, right? Like the corn chips of of the
studio. It's a weird metaphor anyway.
But then the, I remember being in psychology, for example, and
being really interested in the philosophical underpinnings of
that stuff. And, and even as a kid being
(20:42):
really interested in sort of philosophical questions, I
didn't have a, a good academic training to navigate any of
those questions. But then going through
university and starting off in a, in a place that wasn't an art
school got me to get trained in a scientific method.
It was a Bachelor of Science, which then got me thinking
about, OK, well, how do we know that something is true or not
(21:04):
true? And then going into an art
school where a lot of the assumptions that are produced
are untested, that they're inherited, they're challenged,
but they're inherited and they're not tested the same way
that other disciplines test them.
(21:25):
And so there's some really interesting gaps about, OK,
well, how what are some ways to test some of the assumptions
that we have around the value ofart, what art can do for us?
Initially it was questions like what can science contribute to
say, our understanding of art? And so I remember finishing art
school, I did a master's after Idid my psych degree, went to
(21:48):
Cofer and did a master's of drawing last.
It was a master of art brackets drawing.
And after that, my mother-in-lawactually gave me a book called
Art and Visual Perception by Rudolf Anheim, which she had
when she was actually got it in the 70s.
So I read that book and I was like, oh, right, there's this
really interesting field betweenart and science that connects
(22:09):
there. And so I got hungry for it then
and then started to find artiststhat were also drawing upon or
interested in the embodied viewing of art and how art and
science can connect. So people like Olafur Elliotson
had an exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Art in 2008 and
I was doing a residency for Art Month Sydney.
(22:31):
It was a critics in writing thing.
I went to see that show. I wrote a review of it, but that
show really profoundly moved me about how he draws in natural
phenomena and then discourse on that from science and philosophy
and just sort of see how those things can infect and inform
art. And then had then having gone in
to a PhD and been trained in theresearch methods of studio
(22:55):
practice and what what undertaking systematic research
means in the studio, and then understanding and theorizing
about it in the context of what's come before and what else
is around then starting to go. Oh, OK.
Well, it's actually not just these other disciplines that can
inform and infect art, but art has this, you know, its own
(23:16):
contribution to make. But I still don't really want it
to sit in the silo away from other discourses.
I'm really keen to to continue to have it enmeshed to to shape
other disciplines and to be shaped by other disciplines.
Yeah, and I would agree, you know the the point you made
earlier about, you know, how canmake us a better people
(23:40):
individually, but also I think societally, culturally, you
know, it's it's enrichment. It's, and I saw Lufsen's
exhibition at the Tate a few years ago and even more of an
experience, I think, and just the the different media being
used and how a lot of people like families really enjoying it
(24:02):
and and having these joyous experiences of it.
And then going through very likethere was a so I think there
were projections on a wall and everyone was taking selfies.
And then the next thing you haveto do is to walk through a cloud
and you don't know where you're going and it.
And so that sort of embodied immersive engagement in in
(24:27):
artwork that, yeah, as you said,you you were inspired by by the
work that you saw. And then how, yeah, for those
kids I saw playing in the in themist, you know, and with, with
the selfies and everything, you know, what will they go on to do
themselves? And so, yeah, it, it is, Yeah.
(24:49):
It's, it's, it's more than just cognition.
It's, there is something about how.
Yeah, It this is it. It is a thing for good, shall we
say? Yeah, Yeah.
Let's I, I did sort of want to get back to something you said
earlier about the, when you first went to art school and
(25:14):
your mentors, your lecturers, your tutors, they were pointing
out or helping you to see some of the things you weren't doing
formally or, or whatever and, and encouraging you to explore
that. How is that, you know, is that,
I guess that carries through in your own practice.
(25:36):
But then as an academic now who lectures at UTAS, you know, is
that something that that a practice yourself that you that
that you employ when you're working with students?
Yeah, IA big believer. That's a good question.
I'm a big believer that the bestresults come in in an art
(25:59):
studio. I think the best results come
from encouragement. It's not always easy to be
generous in that way when you're.
So I guess I do do that because I think particularly when you've
got a younger student who doesn't have as and, and they
(26:23):
and nor should they have as wider understanding of the
fields as you have. But they have a real talent OR a
real facility that is somehow hemmed into conventions that you
can see because you've seen so many different types of work.
(26:47):
And you so across the the theories and discourse that you
can kind of put names to it and you can kind of draw out their
attention and put it in a vocabulary that they can
understand and show them artiststhat can help them get there.
I kind of tend to take one of two approaches, which is doing
what my lecturers did point out.This is this part of it is
(27:10):
interesting and and invite them to kind of amplify that.
But the other thing might be that perhaps they should learn
from those conventions that they're in and introduce them to
a range of artists that are using those conventions, maybe
better, maybe worse than the students.
(27:32):
But then I find that showing them that those examples help
them to make that decision up for themselves.
Do I want to go down this path and compete with or be better
than or have to learn this vocabulary or do I want to
differentiate and go down that path of the thing that's more.
(27:53):
But the other thing, like when Iwas in art school, part of it
was also laziness because as soon as someone gave me an out,
like, you know, you can either become an amazing drawer or you
can do something really interesting with this thing that
comes supernaturally to you. My lazy kind of attitude then as
a young dude was like, I'm goingto take that.
(28:13):
And, and I sometimes still do that in the studio.
And I think that's really important to sort of I'm a big
believer in attending to what comes naturally because what
comes naturally to you doesn't always come naturally to someone
else. And so sometimes that I don't,
my wife has this saying you don't always have to walk a mile
(28:33):
in the desert on your knees. No, no, no, no.
And that's, that's how I use AI.It's I'm no longer walking
through the desert anymore. You know, it's all those little
jobs that I procrastinate over. Like the first thing I did on
ChatGPT was asked it to I, I gave it some information about
(28:55):
my history of, of run of long ofdistance running.
And, and I hadn't done it for a few years and I wanted to get
back into it. And I asked it to write me a, a
running plan. And there it was 2 seconds
later. But this is somehow I've been
procrastinating not over for formonths.
Yeah. And next day I was out running.
(29:17):
Yeah, I've got this great app called Pie Spelt Pi and it has a
really young, it has a really jovial kind of American accent
and you can make phone calls with it and you can ask it all
kinds of things. But I've found it help so
helpful to diagnose all kinds of, you know, kind of questions
or sticking points that I have in sometimes studio practice.
Right. So I've got this.
(29:38):
I just ordered a new airbrush was a spray gun, mini spray gun
and I connected it to my compressor.
Compressor wasn't big enough. So type into this thing.
Hey, I've got this model mini spray gun with this model
compressor. This doesn't have the grant.
What can you recommend that does?
And then it'll give me a very specific product recommendation
(29:59):
based on and it will tell me whythat thing and what variables
and what flow rate that gun needs and this sort of stuff.
So yeah, 100% AI in the studio, really helpful.
Yeah, but I I suppose about drawing comparisons between
ourselves as academics and the jobs we do and AI and the jobs
(30:21):
it does. You when you are working with
students, you are inviting them to explore what's comfortable
for them and you know, where you're, you have a choice to do
what's most natural to you to perhaps encourage them to
consider doing the same. I mean, some people I know
(30:42):
through their practice, I would be one of them actually, you
know my, what I would call an arts practice, my photography.
You can call it an arts practice.
I'll call it an arts practice with you.
It totally is an art practice. Thanks, Tony.
But it it, it is, it has been about trying to work through a
certain thing that that I've needed to work through and I've
(31:04):
come out the other side of it now and I'm asking what what it
is about that. And perhaps that's something
that we all need to go through and find.
OK, what is it? The what is what is the secret
sauce, perhaps? Yeah, I remember.
So I was teaching in Canberra for a while.
I've taught at a few different universities until landing here
in Taz and one of the, the head of painting that ANU recommended
(31:30):
a book called Art and Fear. And it was a really interesting
book. They recommend to people who are
finishing because, you know, in 3rd year, for example, students
start to get a little, oh, I've been in this really great
environment and I'm about to lose that, you know, the studio
space. I'm about to lose the contacts
with people that can look at my work and provide valuable input
(31:52):
and impact. And but I hadn't read the book.
So I read the book and one of the best in the best Nuggets of
that book was that you the the hardest, the the thing that you
want to make sure that you do isalways go in the studio.
So if there's anything in your life that makes it harder for
(32:13):
you to get into the studio, thenthat's going to be the biggest
challenge to your studio practice.
And sometimes that's like, you know, finding the time to do it.
But I've found, and I'm sure others have found this, that you
might have all the time in the world, but you're still not
getting in the studio. And sometimes that's because you
don't feel good about the studio.
So with students in particular, if we can drive engagement and
(32:34):
get them to to not even think twice about picking up a brush
and to not think twice about, you know, if it's painting, to
not think twice about coming into the studios and using them
and making the most of it. Want them to think critically.
And we want them to make, you know, strategic choices when
they make an artwork. But the first thing we want them
to do is show up. So making them feel like they
(32:55):
belong there, that they are the type of person that can make an
artwork and that they have thosekind of insights that are
valuable to make an artwork, Then I think that's half the
battle. Yeah, where's your studio?
It's in the garage, I can show you.
Oh thanks, I look forward to seeing that after the interview.
It's not very inspiring. No, no, But you'd get in there
(33:17):
often. There's what?
What, you don't have any barriers to getting in there?
Yeah, that's right. And so I, for the last, when I
was living in Wagga Wagga and then in Canberra, I had studios
that I had to travel to, usuallynot very far because it's
regional spots, but here I'm lucky to have a garage that
(33:39):
while the garage needs a lot of work, I'm not working on the
garage. I'm working in the garage from
time to time and it's right here.
And so if I'm home, I can duck in and do a quick thing and
which can turn into a long thing, but that's OK because,
you know, I can pack up pretty quickly and just walk in the
door. It's a beautiful way to work.
Wonderful. And so, yeah, so being able to
(34:00):
just duck in and assume with theday job.
So you know, as a lecturer at the university that affords you
some time again before the interview, I asked you how I
should announce you and, and, and you opted for artist and you
(34:23):
said that, you know, in the context of your lecturing you
are an artist. So, so you seem very clear on
your identity there. So how does that affect your
relationship between your day job and your artistic practice?
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
I think what what an artist doescan mean a range of things.
(34:48):
I think, you know, in the sense that we might expect an artist
to be in the studio five days a week making work, but sometimes
a good day in the studio is justbeing in the studio and figuring
out what the right next move is and being really deeply engaged
in that. And what's interesting about
being a lecturer is that in a classroom that continues to
(35:10):
challenge you and continues to rethink, you know, what are good
moves. And you see this diversity of,
you know, emerging artists in their choosing and testing
things that you get to see like a laboratory of experiments and
you get to feed some of that into your own practices as well.
So it's kind of, I don't think the UNI would want me if I
(35:32):
wasn't an artist. And I don't, you know, I don't
think the artistic practice would advance as deeply as as it
does without that. And you know, the teachings only
40% of the role. So the So another 40% is doing
the research, which can include having exhibitions, so long as
(35:55):
they've so long as they're a comprehensive contribution.
And and then there's other things like service and
engagement. So in that kind of portfolio,
often with might think about a university lecturer as someone
who teaches, but the teaching informs the research and the
research informs the teaching. And, and then if you're in a
(36:17):
particularly if you're in a citylike Lonnie, quite quickly,
you're enmeshed in service. Like so for example, I'm on the
board of Sawtooth Ari, which is where I first met you.
So being involved in the community as both an artist and
a lecturer, it seems, I think that seems indispensable to
Sawtooth, you know, to have on their governments to have a mix
(36:37):
of of that. So it's, it's a funny
enmeshment. I know, I, I know people that
like to say I'm an artist beforeI'm an academic like I'm, but,
but if you hear me talk about mypractice for half a second, you
know that I'd be doing all the research without the, without
(36:59):
the job. Yeah.
With, if I didn't have that 40% research allocation, I'd still
be reading books from the frontiers of psychology or it's
general articles and things likethat, so long as I had access to
a university library. So it's a, it's a funny thing.
I see it perfectly as intertwined.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I think, youknow, that that that's always
the sense I've had from our conversations, Tony, is that
(37:22):
yeah, you, you absolutely love what you do.
And you those intersections thathaving an academic job allows
you to explore. And yeah, they're, they're
enmeshed. I mean, I see them slightly
differently as, as, as an academic from a Business School,
(37:44):
you know, it's very hard to integrate my arts practice into
that, But I, I, I did it. I actually managed to do that.
So you're a. Book on it.
Well, I did, but if thanks. It's yeah, I, I suppose, I mean,
the way you speak about about these intersections and you
know, there's, there seems to bea flow, the way you talked about
(38:06):
you having your studio in the garage and the way you work, it
sounds all very appealing in terms of lifestyle and work and
the intersections between the two.
So would you recommend a career in in academia to artists?
Yeah, either I would absolutely.Here's here's the hard bit, it's
(38:32):
getting there, right. So I think anyone that has had a
that has a profile, not maybe not anyone, but you know, it can
be a tricky terrain to navigate to an academic career that can
involve a lot of casual and precarious employment.
But I think as an artist, unlessyou have some kind of, you know,
(38:59):
funds that that can support you or, or a family that or a patron
that can provide that for you, it's pretty precarious existence
because you can either have money or you can have time.
And no matter which one you have, you put into the studio
because the reason that you're the artist is not because you're
(39:22):
in it to make money. Usually it's because you love
making something that has a really profound aesthetic
resonance or can be a really nice pressure point on society,
you know, like a nice activists,you know, sort of thing.
And so if those are your priorities, then, you know, you
(39:43):
need to make money to pay the rent and do all those other
things. But then every other cent that
you make tends to just get funneled into that.
But I don't know. I agree with Jerry Saltz, who
says, you know, a life an artistis probably worth more than you
know any kind of. Here's how I think about it.
(40:06):
People get incontinently wealthyand then they get to a point
where they need to buy art and they've prioritized money for
their perhaps their whole lifetime.
And they finally got to a point where they're retired and
they're not worried about not having enough money.
And so rather than having the money, often they spend it on
(40:29):
the art. So either way, you can either
have money or you can have arts.If you want art, you have to
spend money. Yeah.
And if you want money, you have to sacrifice art.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
For most people. Yeah, no.
And and that is that's the problem and and very much I
(40:53):
suppose. Yeah, my my own experience is,
is one of at a very early, you know, formative age make it, you
know, making a choice between between not necessarily making
money because I'm, I'm not a rich man, but certainly the to
go out and get a a career in something that was
(41:19):
understandable to my father. But I think, yeah, to make art
doesn't necessarily make sense to a lot of people, but don't.
But we as, as as you said right at the beginning, you know, it's
it's art is cultural production is so important to the everyday.
And so the role of the artist isso important.
(41:41):
Yeah, undervalued. But in terms of yeah.
And I suppose there aren't that many jobs in art schools anyway.
So. So for anyone who goes on that
journey, you know, wants to go on that journey that that you've
gone along, that you've said is actually quite a rocky road to
follow, quite a precarious 1 that you followed, you know, not
(42:06):
everyone's gonna. I think, I think it's also the
timing, yeah, I think the the timing, the timing of coming
through that like finishing my PhD at the time of a change of
government where, you know, Australia Council was halved its
funding, you know, at that period of time and university
(42:30):
art schools were in a decline for probably the last 10 years.
You know, there are all of thesefactors that are so outside of
the artists control, but are so cyclical anyway that as you
know, the wheel will turn. It'll if you're if you get in
when it's high, it'll turn down.And you know what I've what I
(42:53):
have seen is if you get in whileit's down, it turns up a little
bit. And I don't know, you'd never
know how long those cycles are. But I think the best advice I
ever got from Richard Goodwin, who was one of my lecturers, was
you just keep doing it. You know, it's something.
It's not like an athlete where you get worse at it.
As you get older, you get betterat it.
(43:16):
So it's an old person's game. Karma Herrera was not really
discovered until she was in her 80s.
No, no, Yeah. So just to come back to your own
practice and your work as an academic, just.
(43:37):
But what I suppose the thing forme is, is whilst there are
different ways artists might navigate that dichotomy, if you
like, between art and money, yeah, the, the, the academic
(43:57):
life, so to speak, the academic work, it suits your practice in
particular. That's what I'm getting from
you, Tony, is that that, that very much it's, it's something
that you, as you say, you'd be doing the research anyway.
You'd be seeking out access to the knowledge in order to inform
your own practice. So maybe that's not some not for
everyone. I don't think so.
(44:19):
And you know, I've got one particular person in mind who I
won't. I won't tell their story, but
they did take on an academic position for a short term
contract and they had, they had scope to keep that continuing
and they decided it wasn't for them.
They think about making art, so I don't, they think about art in
(44:44):
in ways that I have a lot of parallels with.
And, and I love talking to them about it because there's such
good conversations. But they don't need the, you
know, they have done the PhD andthey don't need the, but they
don't need that access to do it.They don't need, they don't need
scholarship in order to feed their work.
(45:05):
In fact, they can feed it without it because of their
attentiveness and passion and access to, to great museums and
things like that. So it can feed that and they.
Yeah. So I think that's right.
I think what you need is a way where you can go deep into it
(45:25):
and anything that can feed a depth of it is is really
valuable and important. And sometimes that might be if
you can deal with a life where you don't have to have flash
things. You know, if, if you don't need
creature comforts, if you can live on not very much and spend
all the time in the studio, and if your family has the same
(45:47):
values, then yeah, you can. You can go to museums because
they're free most of the time. You can see brilliant works.
You can be enthralled by exhibition openings because
they're free to attend and chipsand drinks and all that sort of
stuff. So a life in art can be rich
without without it being financial.
(46:07):
But then if you can go so deep in and feed the studio, then
this particular person I'm thinking of, you know, is doing
extraordinarily well in their practice by any measure.
Right. Yeah.
So, yeah, that's sort of yeah, finding that way to nurture your
practice. And as you say, there are just
(46:27):
so many options out there. Yeah.
To to be part of a community, tobe in com be in dialogue with
the wider world, I suppose as well, or to be in dialogue would
be part of the arts community. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, What would you be doing if you weren't doing what you're
doing now? Far out.
(46:56):
What a good question I did. OK, so during COVID I did step
away from academia because jobs were drying up and I was casual
and I was able to secure the oddpart time thing but nothing
sustaining. So I did leave that to manage a
yoga studio, but I would probably be cobbling together a
(47:19):
range of freelance activities that included whatever I could
do musically. Whatever I could do, I'd
probably be a yoga teacher or something like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I've considered it myself. Yeah, and during COVID I did do
yoga teacher training because quite a few teaching gigs dried
up and yeah, I was stuck at homeand, you know, those kinds of
(47:43):
things came online. So that was an interesting kind
of soul searching time. But to be honest, you know, it's
really interesting what I did doin COVID.
I did that, and I started working really small and I
started being very careful aboutwhat I showed, and I started
becoming really private about the work.
What I discovered in that was that if I didn't have any
(48:04):
position in the art world, I wasstill going to be painting and
I'm still going to be making. And I'd probably have just
become what we call a soul painter.
That is someone that doesn't getany exhibitions or accolades or
whatever, but is just devoted tomaking really great artworks.
Yeah. So I would have liked to have
(48:24):
thought that that's what I woulddo, but I was tested and that is
kind of what I did. So I was pretty thrilled about
that. That's wonderful.
Wonderful. Well, as you said, we are here
in lovely longing and the sun isshining.
The last question I ask everyoneis why Tazzy?
Why Tasmania? If you could put it in three
words. I got hired.
(48:51):
Thanks Tony. I really appreciate your time
and all of your deep insights. Thanks.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this
episode of Connect Curate Create.
I hope you found inspiration andinsights that you can apply to
your own creative work. For highlights and links, check
out the show notes and be sure to follow us on your favorite
(49:13):
podcast player so you never missan episode.
TuneIn next time as I continue to explore life and work in the
arts.
Welcome back to the podcast. This week we're sharing one of
my favourite episodes so far, part of our new series of recap
episodes. While we're busy producing new
content for the podcast, YouTubeand our brand new Patreon
channel. That's right, Connect, Curate,
(00:20):
Create is now on Patreon. It's a dedicated space to learn,
share, and grow together, and here's why we built it.
Do you feel like your art has been seen by the right people?
Are you getting the kind of feedback that actually helps you
grow? Do you have a space where you
can learn with other artists? Really get what you're doing?
(00:44):
If you answered no to any of these questions, Connect Curate
Create is here for you. Our Patreon community gets
exclusive and early access to content, behind the scenes
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(01:04):
So if you're ready to grow your creative practice with the
support of a collaborative learning community, click the
Patreon link in the show notes and join us today.
Now let's get into another brilliant episode packed with
ideas and inspiration for your own creative journey.
Seeing that actually there's a career and a life that can be
(01:26):
made by being a weirdo, but being a really sophisticated
weirdo, and I couldn't think of a better weirdo to be.
The thing that you want to make sure that you do is always go in
the studio. So if there's anything in your
life that makes it harder for you to get into the studio, then
that's going to be the biggest challenge to your studio
practice. The best advice I ever got from
(01:49):
Richard Goodwin, who's one of mylecturers, was you just keep
doing it. You know it's something.
It's not like an athlete where you get worse at it.
As you get older, you get betterat it.
In this episode, I talked to Tony Curran, an artist based in
Launceston, TAS. Tony shares his journey from
studies in psychology and comic book making to his academic
(02:12):
research and collaborations which shape his current
practice. He offers deep insights into his
arts practice, the value of collaboration, and the power of
good mentoring. Be sure to check out the show
notes for highlights and links that you can use to shape your
own journey. And if you enjoy this episode,
don't forget to like, subscribe and tell your friends about
(02:35):
Connect, Curate, Create. Today I'm in Launceston with
Doctor Tony Curran, Artist Tony Hi.
Hey thanks for having me. No worries.
Nice. Thanks for making the time.
So Tony, just to kick off, you recently had an exhibition that
space here in Launceston. I wondered if you could tell us
(02:56):
about it and introduce us to your practice.
Sure. So the show you just mentioned,
it was called Collision and it'sjust come down recently and it
was at Launceston Art Centre Gallery, which is on Invermay
Road right opposite the university there.
There is a really beautiful little art supply store there
(03:18):
called Launceston Heart Centre, who also rent out the adjoining
space next door. But their tenants left and so
they opened up a pop up and it was really fantastic series of
short run pro programs that they're doing of exhibitions.
And I was in a group exhibition with the with the owner of the
(03:41):
of the show, Stefano Campo and Katie Barron, who's another
local Launceston artist as well.And the show was called
Collision. It was kind of, I think Stefan,
I think, yeah, I think Stefan just wanted to show with like to
have these three artists in the show because he kind of liked
(04:02):
them. We tossed around a few ideas
about what perhaps the relationships even were for the
show, but I think the impetus was essentially he liked my
work, he liked Katie's work, andhe he's making work as well.
But he's so often only seen as the business owner of Launceston
Arts Centre that it's a really good opportunity for him to
(04:23):
actually test out his work in a gallery space.
So we were thrilled to be involved in that and the more we
thought about the the potential intersections with our show.
My work is very pure abstraction, very colourful kind
of work. Stefano's is very gritty, sort
of Hawks to aerosol art, street art a little bit, but very much
(04:45):
in a language of painterly abstraction.
And then Katie Barron's so radically different from both of
us, but a super playful artist who can render, you know, junk
food exquisitely. And, you know, so in the in the
playfulness of her subject matter and the sincerity of
delivery of her painting and theskill levels involved, there was
(05:08):
just these kind of nice connections between our works
because the colourful language of my work is super playful and
wiggly and what I hope is jubilant.
And so with that, we thought, well, they're sort of the
practices are so different, but they're sort of connected that
Stefano came up with the show Collision.
So that was good fun. But yeah, my the works that I
(05:30):
had in that show were works thatI had exhibited at Griffith
Regional Art Gallery mid last year in a show called What a
Machine. And the idea of those works were
thinking about the way that artificial intelligence creates
(05:50):
new artworks and using the algorithmic processes that those
AI technologies undertake, usingthose as a way to sort of
simulate in the studio without actually having to encode it in
an AI framework. But thinking through the
iterative loops and processes that they go through to make new
(06:12):
work, such as having a sort of genetics of the work as sort of
series of properties of the works that then go through an
evolutionary process that's systematic that then outputs
these things. And then they get measured in an
ecosystem. And I know I always tend to lose
people as soon as I start talking about this, but it's the
(06:34):
the result is kind of a series of really energetic but also
hopefully beautifully combo composed and stable works where
there is a strange kind of latency to where where hopefully
(06:56):
a viewer comes to the work and and can't quite figure out what
shapes belong to which colour and which which shapes sit in
front of another. And there's a sort of exciting
and fun and beautiful object before them, but one that leaves
them a little quizzical and intrigued and gets them to keep
looking to try and resolve the unknown questions about it's
(07:20):
material manufacture and it's possible illusionistic
reference. Yeah.
And you know, I've asked you about your work before and you,
you, you've, you've shown me andyou've talked me through it and,
and I think that was before a time that where I'd actually
engaged with any form of AI knowingly.
(07:41):
And and since then, I've I have done more so and so even without
that reference, I was very, I found myself being drawn into
the work and it raising more questions than answers.
So I suppose the key question for all of us now is where did
it all begin? How?
How did you arrive at this this point?
(08:01):
Like in terms of these particular types of works and
this language of painting or? I was thinking about taking us
back right to, you know, when did, when, you know, what
inspired you to begin in the arts.
But yeah, if you, I mean if you think it's more appropriate to
just talk about this body of work for now, that'll be fine.
(08:24):
Yeah, they'll probably come connected to each other.
Tired of very musical upbringingand when I I never had any
interest or understanding or desire to to do art.
But when I was studying psychology, I did that as an
undergraduate degree. And I found that rather than
(08:47):
writing my lab reports, I was procrastinating by trying to
draw the psychological phenomenathat we were learning about in
say sensation and perception unit, for example, like how
stereoscopic or binocular visionworks and trying to figure out
can you draw experiments that you know?
(09:07):
So I became more interested in the drawing side of it.
But then I went on a my trip to Europe and was just in museums
where probably for the first time I'd felt really moved by
kind of what art can do and, andhow much diversity of really
great art it was. And I hadn't experienced that in
(09:27):
suburban Sydney growing up. And so from that experience, I
thought I was going to go and draw comic books and make a
living doing that. And found my way into art school
where there was a really fantastic lecture, Gary Castley,
who saw all the things that I was doing wrong in my drawing
(09:50):
and kind of pointed out how awesome those things were or the
potential for the things that were failing at the conventions.
And then looking at those thingsand then saying, OK, well, if
you elaborate on that, you find a sense of originality.
But it also opens up ambiguitiesand it opens up questions rather
(10:10):
than fixes meaning. And it enables a work to have
greater complexity and interest.So I, you know, for the first
time at art school, seeing people like him and people like
Richard Goodwin and Michael Essen showing, showing really,
you know, beautiful work, but then also dabbling into
(10:30):
conceptual terrain and then seeing that actually there's a
career and a life that can be made by being a weirdo, but
being a really sophisticated weirdo.
And I couldn't think of a betterweirdo to be so.
So then I guess after art school, I, you know, after
(10:52):
Psycho went to art school, had that experience.
After art school I, I kind of tried to exist outside of the
Academy for a little bit. I got a studio residency, I
remember at Fraser St. Studios and just had a really
great couple of years. But I had fallen in love and my
wife had gotten a really fantastic job opportunity in
(11:13):
regional NSW and we had a range of cities that that could have
been stationed in, but it had tobe regional NSW.
And so there at Wagga Wagga, there was a, there was an art
school there and I had been considering doing postgraduate
study because at the time it waslooking like the best arts
(11:36):
funding available, right? So I went in and completed an
honors degree there and quite quickly was offered marking work
and then teaching work as I enrolled in a PhD and continued
studies down that way. And, and in the PhD program, the
art and psychology thing continued to intersect.
(11:57):
And my PhD research was really around.
We have these conventional formsof art making, for example,
portraiture, but the way that weunderstand human subjectivity
has moved so far beyond what it was in 1850 when the National
Portrait Gallery was legislated in England.
But we're still held to those conventions.
(12:20):
And So what kinds of painting ormaking can we make that help us
to articulate the changed views in science and philosophy and
psychology around what what a self and what a person is?
And I found that part of the answer to that question was
paintings intersection with technology.
(12:41):
And so that sort of trajectory keep kept going after I finished
my PhD and I moved away from portraiture and was doing
collaborations with computer scientists at the ANU and poets
(13:02):
and print makers. And in that process distilled my
studio practice very much into alanguage of pure abstraction.
Partly so that it could navigateall these different types of
projects. But also because I started to
learn that the thing that was really fundamentally of interest
(13:23):
to me was a push pull between the feeling that an artwork can
convey of freedom either in the subject represented or in the
artistic expression of of the thing and constraints.
So I was interested in, you know, we live in such a
(13:43):
constrained age now. Everything's very accounted for
then, you know, the neoliberal sort of structures that we find
our way in, where we're constantly plugged in.
But that what we all yearn for is a kind of liberation, A
jubilant liberation from that. And so I've kept certain types
(14:07):
of formal elements in my work and used and limited those very
strategically so that the work very much becomes a push pull
between systems based art makingand that that feeling of the
thing being alive. So the thing simultaneously
being imprisoned but also risingabove its prison.
(14:27):
I was gonna. Try to draw a conclusion around
cognition and art, but your workis much deeper than trying to
understand cognition. I mean it's so you know the
intersection between psychology,but then you've talked about
more than human. Non human cognition was where I
(14:49):
was thinking but I'd be wrong. Yeah, it's that.
Well, in painting in particular,actually probably in all art
that we value, there's I think an attitude that an audience
brings to it when they Revere anartwork, they're revereing it as
(15:11):
a quasi person. So there is a, there is, I think
in the reverence of nature or the reverence in, in art or
craft or design, there is this reverence of this is not human,
but it's as human as human, you know, maybe more human than
human. I'm sure some people would save
(15:32):
an artwork before a person, depending on their moral
compass. But the paintings that I make, I
call them attention machines. And, and a big part of the
reason for that is that I, I want to give someone a stimulus
that on the one hand doesn't look that complex.
But then as soon as you're, I guess seduced into looking at
(15:54):
it, there is a great amount of complexity, visual complexity at
on offer that invites you to keep looking, which I guess is,
is the I think of these things as machines that get you to
cognate to cognate to, to get there and, and attend to
(16:15):
different parts of it and slow down your thinking and become
present, like aware of the present moments of the thing in
front of you. And that's really important to
me in this moment where I as much as everybody else, you
know, victim to quick thinking, the doom scrolling, the sort of
(16:39):
digital culture that we find ourselves in where we're invited
to make quick decisions and we rarely make good decisions when
we make quick decisions. But but a lot of how we're
invited to make quick decisions to rely on unconscious biases
and snap judgments, a lot of that is actually facilitated by
(16:59):
the technology and how the technology is designed.
And a lot of the design featureshave to do with formal elements
in painting, right? So, you know, I read
notification on an e-mail app. He's he's kind of telling you,
look here, something is necessary and important, you
know, and these things they, they almost feel like visual
(17:20):
itches on our devices and we have to sort of press on them
and answer them. So we're sort of getting more
and more visually conditioned inthese formal elements to feel
emotive. Lee around zone things like
colour and tone. So if we take away all colour
and just work on on tone, say our phones don't seduce us as
(17:41):
much. So I'm really interested in this
particular place that we're in where we have these attention
machines in our pockets, these things where we're invited to
direct our cognitive energy too constantly.
But the purpose of that is mostly so that we can press on
things on it, so that corporations can track our
(18:04):
interests and behaviours, develop psychographic profiles
to sell to advertisers, you know, so our our cognitive
energy has money making and value potential for a lot of
people. So I and then if we expended on
things that make us make those snap decisions, actually it
(18:26):
wears away our cognitive resources and then we don't have
as much time to spend on the things that are meaningful to
us. But if you can, and I'm really
interested in the in the research around present state
awareness where if someone spends more time attending to
the present moment and the things that are in front of us
(18:47):
rather than representations of things on our phones.
If we pay attention to the things in front of us, we
actually build our cognitive capacities so that we have more
focus and more mental and emotional resilience.
And we can, yeah, we can make better decisions and we don't
get depleted, right. So it's kind of like exercise
(19:10):
and a muscle versus junk food. And, you know, I'm kind of
interested in that discourse andhow art can make the world a
better place with the knowledge that artworks are there here and
now in the present moment. And if we pay attention to it,
then they can actually help us be better people.
Yeah. You mentioned you're interested
(19:30):
in the research. You did your PhD, you are an
academic. And so I guess coming back to to
that, you apply an academic lensto your work.
You talked about some of your collaborations with people
across different academic disciplines or different
practices completely. So yeah, how how does that, how
(19:58):
do you think your work has changed over time as a
consequence of applying more of an academic lens to it?
Yeah, for me, that's a bit of a chicken and egg thing, I think.
I think my my interests were there a long time ago.
So I've got these kind of lowbrow interests like I still,
(20:18):
you know, music, pop music, house music and put things in
for my painting, right? Like the corn chips of of the
studio. It's a weird metaphor anyway.
But then the, I remember being in psychology, for example, and
being really interested in the philosophical underpinnings of
that stuff. And, and even as a kid being
(20:42):
really interested in sort of philosophical questions, I
didn't have a, a good academic training to navigate any of
those questions. But then going through
university and starting off in a, in a place that wasn't an art
school got me to get trained in a scientific method.
It was a Bachelor of Science, which then got me thinking
about, OK, well, how do we know that something is true or not
(21:04):
true? And then going into an art
school where a lot of the assumptions that are produced
are untested, that they're inherited, they're challenged,
but they're inherited and they're not tested the same way
that other disciplines test them.
(21:25):
And so there's some really interesting gaps about, OK,
well, how what are some ways to test some of the assumptions
that we have around the value ofart, what art can do for us?
Initially it was questions like what can science contribute to
say, our understanding of art? And so I remember finishing art
school, I did a master's after Idid my psych degree, went to
(21:48):
Cofer and did a master's of drawing last.
It was a master of art brackets drawing.
And after that, my mother-in-lawactually gave me a book called
Art and Visual Perception by Rudolf Anheim, which she had
when she was actually got it in the 70s.
So I read that book and I was like, oh, right, there's this
really interesting field betweenart and science that connects
(22:09):
there. And so I got hungry for it then
and then started to find artiststhat were also drawing upon or
interested in the embodied viewing of art and how art and
science can connect. So people like Olafur Elliotson
had an exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Art in 2008 and
I was doing a residency for Art Month Sydney.
(22:31):
It was a critics in writing thing.
I went to see that show. I wrote a review of it, but that
show really profoundly moved me about how he draws in natural
phenomena and then discourse on that from science and philosophy
and just sort of see how those things can infect and inform
art. And then had then having gone in
to a PhD and been trained in theresearch methods of studio
(22:55):
practice and what what undertaking systematic research
means in the studio, and then understanding and theorizing
about it in the context of what's come before and what else
is around then starting to go. Oh, OK.
Well, it's actually not just these other disciplines that can
inform and infect art, but art has this, you know, its own
(23:16):
contribution to make. But I still don't really want it
to sit in the silo away from other discourses.
I'm really keen to to continue to have it enmeshed to to shape
other disciplines and to be shaped by other disciplines.
Yeah, and I would agree, you know the the point you made
earlier about, you know, how canmake us a better people
(23:40):
individually, but also I think societally, culturally, you
know, it's it's enrichment. It's, and I saw Lufsen's
exhibition at the Tate a few years ago and even more of an
experience, I think, and just the the different media being
used and how a lot of people like families really enjoying it
(24:02):
and and having these joyous experiences of it.
And then going through very likethere was a so I think there
were projections on a wall and everyone was taking selfies.
And then the next thing you haveto do is to walk through a cloud
and you don't know where you're going and it.
And so that sort of embodied immersive engagement in in
(24:27):
artwork that, yeah, as you said,you you were inspired by by the
work that you saw. And then how, yeah, for those
kids I saw playing in the in themist, you know, and with, with
the selfies and everything, you know, what will they go on to do
themselves? And so, yeah, it, it is, Yeah.
(24:49):
It's, it's, it's more than just cognition.
It's, there is something about how.
Yeah, It this is it. It is a thing for good, shall we
say? Yeah, Yeah.
Let's I, I did sort of want to get back to something you said
earlier about the, when you first went to art school and
(25:14):
your mentors, your lecturers, your tutors, they were pointing
out or helping you to see some of the things you weren't doing
formally or, or whatever and, and encouraging you to explore
that. How is that, you know, is that,
I guess that carries through in your own practice.
(25:36):
But then as an academic now who lectures at UTAS, you know, is
that something that that a practice yourself that you that
that you employ when you're working with students?
Yeah, IA big believer. That's a good question.
I'm a big believer that the bestresults come in in an art
(25:59):
studio. I think the best results come
from encouragement. It's not always easy to be
generous in that way when you're.
So I guess I do do that because I think particularly when you've
got a younger student who doesn't have as and, and they
(26:23):
and nor should they have as wider understanding of the
fields as you have. But they have a real talent OR a
real facility that is somehow hemmed into conventions that you
can see because you've seen so many different types of work.
(26:47):
And you so across the the theories and discourse that you
can kind of put names to it and you can kind of draw out their
attention and put it in a vocabulary that they can
understand and show them artiststhat can help them get there.
I kind of tend to take one of two approaches, which is doing
what my lecturers did point out.This is this part of it is
(27:10):
interesting and and invite them to kind of amplify that.
But the other thing might be that perhaps they should learn
from those conventions that they're in and introduce them to
a range of artists that are using those conventions, maybe
better, maybe worse than the students.
(27:32):
But then I find that showing them that those examples help
them to make that decision up for themselves.
Do I want to go down this path and compete with or be better
than or have to learn this vocabulary or do I want to
differentiate and go down that path of the thing that's more.
(27:53):
But the other thing, like when Iwas in art school, part of it
was also laziness because as soon as someone gave me an out,
like, you know, you can either become an amazing drawer or you
can do something really interesting with this thing that
comes supernaturally to you. My lazy kind of attitude then as
a young dude was like, I'm goingto take that.
(28:13):
And, and I sometimes still do that in the studio.
And I think that's really important to sort of I'm a big
believer in attending to what comes naturally because what
comes naturally to you doesn't always come naturally to someone
else. And so sometimes that I don't,
my wife has this saying you don't always have to walk a mile
(28:33):
in the desert on your knees. No, no, no, no.
And that's, that's how I use AI.It's I'm no longer walking
through the desert anymore. You know, it's all those little
jobs that I procrastinate over. Like the first thing I did on
ChatGPT was asked it to I, I gave it some information about
(28:55):
my history of, of run of long ofdistance running.
And, and I hadn't done it for a few years and I wanted to get
back into it. And I asked it to write me a, a
running plan. And there it was 2 seconds
later. But this is somehow I've been
procrastinating not over for formonths.
Yeah. And next day I was out running.
(29:17):
Yeah, I've got this great app called Pie Spelt Pi and it has a
really young, it has a really jovial kind of American accent
and you can make phone calls with it and you can ask it all
kinds of things. But I've found it help so
helpful to diagnose all kinds of, you know, kind of questions
or sticking points that I have in sometimes studio practice.
Right. So I've got this.
(29:38):
I just ordered a new airbrush was a spray gun, mini spray gun
and I connected it to my compressor.
Compressor wasn't big enough. So type into this thing.
Hey, I've got this model mini spray gun with this model
compressor. This doesn't have the grant.
What can you recommend that does?
And then it'll give me a very specific product recommendation
(29:59):
based on and it will tell me whythat thing and what variables
and what flow rate that gun needs and this sort of stuff.
So yeah, 100% AI in the studio, really helpful.
Yeah, but I I suppose about drawing comparisons between
ourselves as academics and the jobs we do and AI and the jobs
(30:21):
it does. You when you are working with
students, you are inviting them to explore what's comfortable
for them and you know, where you're, you have a choice to do
what's most natural to you to perhaps encourage them to
consider doing the same. I mean, some people I know
(30:42):
through their practice, I would be one of them actually, you
know my, what I would call an arts practice, my photography.
You can call it an arts practice.
I'll call it an arts practice with you.
It totally is an art practice. Thanks, Tony.
But it it, it is, it has been about trying to work through a
certain thing that that I've needed to work through and I've
(31:04):
come out the other side of it now and I'm asking what what it
is about that. And perhaps that's something
that we all need to go through and find.
OK, what is it? The what is what is the secret
sauce, perhaps? Yeah, I remember.
So I was teaching in Canberra for a while.
I've taught at a few different universities until landing here
in Taz and one of the, the head of painting that ANU recommended
(31:30):
a book called Art and Fear. And it was a really interesting
book. They recommend to people who are
finishing because, you know, in 3rd year, for example, students
start to get a little, oh, I've been in this really great
environment and I'm about to lose that, you know, the studio
space. I'm about to lose the contacts
with people that can look at my work and provide valuable input
(31:52):
and impact. And but I hadn't read the book.
So I read the book and one of the best in the best Nuggets of
that book was that you the the hardest, the the thing that you
want to make sure that you do isalways go in the studio.
So if there's anything in your life that makes it harder for
(32:13):
you to get into the studio, thenthat's going to be the biggest
challenge to your studio practice.
And sometimes that's like, you know, finding the time to do it.
But I've found, and I'm sure others have found this, that you
might have all the time in the world, but you're still not
getting in the studio. And sometimes that's because you
don't feel good about the studio.
So with students in particular, if we can drive engagement and
(32:34):
get them to to not even think twice about picking up a brush
and to not think twice about, you know, if it's painting, to
not think twice about coming into the studios and using them
and making the most of it. Want them to think critically.
And we want them to make, you know, strategic choices when
they make an artwork. But the first thing we want them
to do is show up. So making them feel like they
(32:55):
belong there, that they are the type of person that can make an
artwork and that they have thosekind of insights that are
valuable to make an artwork, Then I think that's half the
battle. Yeah, where's your studio?
It's in the garage, I can show you.
Oh thanks, I look forward to seeing that after the interview.
It's not very inspiring. No, no, But you'd get in there
(33:17):
often. There's what?
What, you don't have any barriers to getting in there?
Yeah, that's right. And so I, for the last, when I
was living in Wagga Wagga and then in Canberra, I had studios
that I had to travel to, usuallynot very far because it's
regional spots, but here I'm lucky to have a garage that
(33:39):
while the garage needs a lot of work, I'm not working on the
garage. I'm working in the garage from
time to time and it's right here.
And so if I'm home, I can duck in and do a quick thing and
which can turn into a long thing, but that's OK because,
you know, I can pack up pretty quickly and just walk in the
door. It's a beautiful way to work.
Wonderful. And so, yeah, so being able to
(34:00):
just duck in and assume with theday job.
So you know, as a lecturer at the university that affords you
some time again before the interview, I asked you how I
should announce you and, and, and you opted for artist and you
(34:23):
said that, you know, in the context of your lecturing you
are an artist. So, so you seem very clear on
your identity there. So how does that affect your
relationship between your day job and your artistic practice?
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
I think what what an artist doescan mean a range of things.
(34:48):
I think, you know, in the sense that we might expect an artist
to be in the studio five days a week making work, but sometimes
a good day in the studio is justbeing in the studio and figuring
out what the right next move is and being really deeply engaged
in that. And what's interesting about
being a lecturer is that in a classroom that continues to
(35:10):
challenge you and continues to rethink, you know, what are good
moves. And you see this diversity of,
you know, emerging artists in their choosing and testing
things that you get to see like a laboratory of experiments and
you get to feed some of that into your own practices as well.
So it's kind of, I don't think the UNI would want me if I
(35:32):
wasn't an artist. And I don't, you know, I don't
think the artistic practice would advance as deeply as as it
does without that. And you know, the teachings only
40% of the role. So the So another 40% is doing
the research, which can include having exhibitions, so long as
(35:55):
they've so long as they're a comprehensive contribution.
And and then there's other things like service and
engagement. So in that kind of portfolio,
often with might think about a university lecturer as someone
who teaches, but the teaching informs the research and the
research informs the teaching. And, and then if you're in a
(36:17):
particularly if you're in a citylike Lonnie, quite quickly,
you're enmeshed in service. Like so for example, I'm on the
board of Sawtooth Ari, which is where I first met you.
So being involved in the community as both an artist and
a lecturer, it seems, I think that seems indispensable to
Sawtooth, you know, to have on their governments to have a mix
(36:37):
of of that. So it's, it's a funny
enmeshment. I know, I, I know people that
like to say I'm an artist beforeI'm an academic like I'm, but,
but if you hear me talk about mypractice for half a second, you
know that I'd be doing all the research without the, without
(36:59):
the job. Yeah.
With, if I didn't have that 40% research allocation, I'd still
be reading books from the frontiers of psychology or it's
general articles and things likethat, so long as I had access to
a university library. So it's a, it's a funny thing.
I see it perfectly as intertwined.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I think, youknow, that that that's always
the sense I've had from our conversations, Tony, is that
(37:22):
yeah, you, you absolutely love what you do.
And you those intersections thathaving an academic job allows
you to explore. And yeah, they're, they're
enmeshed. I mean, I see them slightly
differently as, as, as an academic from a Business School,
(37:44):
you know, it's very hard to integrate my arts practice into
that, But I, I, I did it. I actually managed to do that.
So you're a. Book on it.
Well, I did, but if thanks. It's yeah, I, I suppose, I mean,
the way you speak about about these intersections and you
know, there's, there seems to bea flow, the way you talked about
(38:06):
you having your studio in the garage and the way you work, it
sounds all very appealing in terms of lifestyle and work and
the intersections between the two.
So would you recommend a career in in academia to artists?
Yeah, either I would absolutely.Here's here's the hard bit, it's
(38:32):
getting there, right. So I think anyone that has had a
that has a profile, not maybe not anyone, but you know, it can
be a tricky terrain to navigate to an academic career that can
involve a lot of casual and precarious employment.
But I think as an artist, unlessyou have some kind of, you know,
(38:59):
funds that that can support you or, or a family that or a patron
that can provide that for you, it's pretty precarious existence
because you can either have money or you can have time.
And no matter which one you have, you put into the studio
because the reason that you're the artist is not because you're
(39:22):
in it to make money. Usually it's because you love
making something that has a really profound aesthetic
resonance or can be a really nice pressure point on society,
you know, like a nice activists,you know, sort of thing.
And so if those are your priorities, then, you know, you
(39:43):
need to make money to pay the rent and do all those other
things. But then every other cent that
you make tends to just get funneled into that.
But I don't know. I agree with Jerry Saltz, who
says, you know, a life an artistis probably worth more than you
know any kind of. Here's how I think about it.
(40:06):
People get incontinently wealthyand then they get to a point
where they need to buy art and they've prioritized money for
their perhaps their whole lifetime.
And they finally got to a point where they're retired and
they're not worried about not having enough money.
And so rather than having the money, often they spend it on
(40:29):
the art. So either way, you can either
have money or you can have arts.If you want art, you have to
spend money. Yeah.
And if you want money, you have to sacrifice art.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
For most people. Yeah, no.
And and that is that's the problem and and very much I
(40:53):
suppose. Yeah, my my own experience is,
is one of at a very early, you know, formative age make it, you
know, making a choice between between not necessarily making
money because I'm, I'm not a rich man, but certainly the to
go out and get a a career in something that was
(41:19):
understandable to my father. But I think, yeah, to make art
doesn't necessarily make sense to a lot of people, but don't.
But we as, as as you said right at the beginning, you know, it's
it's art is cultural production is so important to the everyday.
And so the role of the artist isso important.
(41:41):
Yeah, undervalued. But in terms of yeah.
And I suppose there aren't that many jobs in art schools anyway.
So. So for anyone who goes on that
journey, you know, wants to go on that journey that that you've
gone along, that you've said is actually quite a rocky road to
follow, quite a precarious 1 that you followed, you know, not
(42:06):
everyone's gonna. I think, I think it's also the
timing, yeah, I think the the timing, the timing of coming
through that like finishing my PhD at the time of a change of
government where, you know, Australia Council was halved its
funding, you know, at that period of time and university
(42:30):
art schools were in a decline for probably the last 10 years.
You know, there are all of thesefactors that are so outside of
the artists control, but are so cyclical anyway that as you
know, the wheel will turn. It'll if you're if you get in
when it's high, it'll turn down.And you know what I've what I
(42:53):
have seen is if you get in whileit's down, it turns up a little
bit. And I don't know, you'd never
know how long those cycles are. But I think the best advice I
ever got from Richard Goodwin, who was one of my lecturers, was
you just keep doing it. You know, it's something.
It's not like an athlete where you get worse at it.
As you get older, you get betterat it.
(43:16):
So it's an old person's game. Karma Herrera was not really
discovered until she was in her 80s.
No, no, Yeah. So just to come back to your own
practice and your work as an academic, just.
(43:37):
But what I suppose the thing forme is, is whilst there are
different ways artists might navigate that dichotomy, if you
like, between art and money, yeah, the, the, the academic
(43:57):
life, so to speak, the academic work, it suits your practice in
particular. That's what I'm getting from
you, Tony, is that that, that very much it's, it's something
that you, as you say, you'd be doing the research anyway.
You'd be seeking out access to the knowledge in order to inform
your own practice. So maybe that's not some not for
everyone. I don't think so.
(44:19):
And you know, I've got one particular person in mind who I
won't. I won't tell their story, but
they did take on an academic position for a short term
contract and they had, they had scope to keep that continuing
and they decided it wasn't for them.
They think about making art, so I don't, they think about art in
(44:44):
in ways that I have a lot of parallels with.
And, and I love talking to them about it because there's such
good conversations. But they don't need the, you
know, they have done the PhD andthey don't need the, but they
don't need that access to do it.They don't need, they don't need
scholarship in order to feed their work.
(45:05):
In fact, they can feed it without it because of their
attentiveness and passion and access to, to great museums and
things like that. So it can feed that and they.
Yeah. So I think that's right.
I think what you need is a way where you can go deep into it
(45:25):
and anything that can feed a depth of it is is really
valuable and important. And sometimes that might be if
you can deal with a life where you don't have to have flash
things. You know, if, if you don't need
creature comforts, if you can live on not very much and spend
all the time in the studio, and if your family has the same
(45:47):
values, then yeah, you can. You can go to museums because
they're free most of the time. You can see brilliant works.
You can be enthralled by exhibition openings because
they're free to attend and chipsand drinks and all that sort of
stuff. So a life in art can be rich
without without it being financial.
(46:07):
But then if you can go so deep in and feed the studio, then
this particular person I'm thinking of, you know, is doing
extraordinarily well in their practice by any measure.
Right. Yeah.
So, yeah, that's sort of yeah, finding that way to nurture your
practice. And as you say, there are just
(46:27):
so many options out there. Yeah.
To to be part of a community, tobe in com be in dialogue with
the wider world, I suppose as well, or to be in dialogue would
be part of the arts community. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, What would you be doing if you weren't doing what you're
doing now? Far out.
(46:56):
What a good question I did. OK, so during COVID I did step
away from academia because jobs were drying up and I was casual
and I was able to secure the oddpart time thing but nothing
sustaining. So I did leave that to manage a
yoga studio, but I would probably be cobbling together a
(47:19):
range of freelance activities that included whatever I could
do musically. Whatever I could do, I'd
probably be a yoga teacher or something like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
I've considered it myself. Yeah, and during COVID I did do
yoga teacher training because quite a few teaching gigs dried
up and yeah, I was stuck at homeand, you know, those kinds of
(47:43):
things came online. So that was an interesting kind
of soul searching time. But to be honest, you know, it's
really interesting what I did doin COVID.
I did that, and I started working really small and I
started being very careful aboutwhat I showed, and I started
becoming really private about the work.
What I discovered in that was that if I didn't have any
(48:04):
position in the art world, I wasstill going to be painting and
I'm still going to be making. And I'd probably have just
become what we call a soul painter.
That is someone that doesn't getany exhibitions or accolades or
whatever, but is just devoted tomaking really great artworks.
Yeah. So I would have liked to have
(48:24):
thought that that's what I woulddo, but I was tested and that is
kind of what I did. So I was pretty thrilled about
that. That's wonderful.
Wonderful. Well, as you said, we are here
in lovely longing and the sun isshining.
The last question I ask everyoneis why Tazzy?
Why Tasmania? If you could put it in three
words. I got hired.
(48:51):
Thanks Tony. I really appreciate your time
and all of your deep insights. Thanks.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this
episode of Connect Curate Create.
I hope you found inspiration andinsights that you can apply to
your own creative work. For highlights and links, check
out the show notes and be sure to follow us on your favorite
(49:13):
podcast player so you never missan episode.
TuneIn next time as I continue to explore life and work in the
arts.
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