Breaking the Silence: Recognizing and Preventing Elder Abuse

Let's face it, talking to your parents or grandparents about elder abuse can feel like tiptoeing through a minefield. But fear not! This episode, with lawyer Rachel King, equips you with the tools to have open and honest conversations, ensuring their safety and well-being while guiding you on having compassionate discussions that empower your loved ones, not scare them.

Here are your secret weapons for navigating these important conversations:

• Ditch the Talking Down: Treat them with respect, after all, they've got a lifetime of wisdom!
• Become a Listening Ninja: Pay close attention to their thoughts and concerns. You might be surprised by what you learn.
• The Feedback Loop: Encourage them to share their feelings – open communication is key!
• Safe Space Secured: Foster an environment where they feel comfortable being honest and expressing themselves freely.
• Respecting Their Choices: Remember, they're still in charge. We'll discuss ways to empower their decision-making.

Start putting these tips into practice today! By having proactive conversations, you can make a world of difference in protecting your loved ones.

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John & Erin

Episode Transcript

Savannah (00:00):
If we're talking about a criminal violation, It should

(00:02):
be no surprise there.
You can go to jail, right?
That's the kind of therepercussion for violating a
criminal law.

John (00:19):
Hi, I'm John,

Erin (00:20):
and I'm Erin.
You're listening toconnect-empower.
The podcast that proves age isno barrier to growth and
enlightenment

John (00:28):
tune in each week as we break down complex subjects into
bite sized enjoyable episodesthat will leave you feeling
informed, entertained, and readyto conquer the world

Erin (00:41):
Our guest today is a true force in both entrepreneurship
and legal fields.
Imagine starting your firstbusiness at just 12 years old.
That's Rachel for you.
Always driven, always strivingfor excellence and her journey.
Didn't just stop at business.
She also dedicated seven yearsto serving in our military where

(01:04):
she sharpened her discipline andleadership skills.
Inspired by her father's careerin law.
Rachel followed her lifelongpassion and opened her law firm.
In 2014.
Now she navigates complex arenasof wills, trust estate planning,
trust administration, probate,family law, and so much more

(01:25):
across California, Arizona,Texas, and Kentucky.
Rachel is more than just a legalexpert.
She's a devoted wife and motherdeeply connected to her
community through continuousoutreach.
She embodies the kind ofleadership that's rooted in care
and commitment.
Impacting, not just her clients,but everyone around her.

(01:46):
You'll find her at the heart ofher community, making a
difference every day.
Please help me welcome ourguest, Rachel King.
Welcome.

Savannah (01:57):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Erin (01:59):
We are super excited.
I know this is a topic I don'tknow a lot about.
I know it happens, but I'm notreally sure.
all the ins and outs to it.
So this will be a greatinformational for our listeners.

John (02:10):
it's such a, such an important topic, I think, right.
It's, uh, as we get older orwhen we're very young, we're
very vulnerable and, I'm veryprotective of both the littles
and, Older people.
can you lead us in with yourstory?
What, what motivated you?
what what made you jump into theworld of, Elder abuse?

Savannah (02:31):
I didn't always want to be here.
In fact, this was never on mylife plan, was to do the kind of
law that I practice today, whichis, complex litigation,
specifically in the areas ofelder abuse.
abuse.
financial elder abuse,conservatorship, some of the
elder law areas.

(02:53):
But if we go back in time, Iprobably discovered that I
wanted to be a lawyer somewherearound 14 years old, took me a
very windy path to ultimatelybecome an attorney that included
military service, children,marriage, the whole nine yards.
I opened my own law firm in2014.

(03:16):
And again, still, this was,elder abuse was not on my radar
at all.
But I did get into family law.
And so I became very good at thefamily dramas.
I also started to learn and seewhere elder abuse started to
fall.
And in family law, We dodomestic violence restraining

(03:38):
orders, and then, so when youlook at elder abuse, we're
talking about elder abuserestraining orders, but so much
elder abuse, which we'll talkabout, ends up being like a
domestic violence kind ofsituation where domestic
violence is It's considered,well, it's considered domestic
violence when it's a familymember, right?

(03:59):
Or some kind of romanticrelationship.
So when we're looking at elderabuse, much of the elder abuse
comes from those samerelationships.
The only difference issomebody's over the age of 65
and they fall legally into beingan elder.
And so we have some differentprotections.
So I was first introduced to itthat way.

(04:20):
And then.
And, but when I remember it wasso funny, I had an attorney once
say, oh, this is very early on.
You're going to love like elderlaw.
And I went to a bar meeting forit.
And I was like, this is the mostboring area of law who would
ever want to do this.
Right.
But I still had my, young lawyerglasses on and I thought this, I
want to be like all of thelawyers on suits.

(04:42):
I didn't realize they don'texist.
So through the years, I got somereally great cases.
I had some opportunities to dosome really wonderful, lawsuits
and work with fantastic peopleand solve some pretty big
issues.
And I.
over time.
It was like a slow burn love,right?
So now I am here today and Ihave been doing this for years.

(05:07):
It's the primary focus of mypractice right at this point in
my career.
And I'm a legal specialist inthis area.
I just, in 2023, actually, Tookthe legal specialization to
become an expert in all thingselder and, past the exam.
So now I'm just waiting on my,stamp of approval from the state

(05:29):
bar, but that's where I am andhow I got here.

Erin (05:32):
Well, congratulations.
I'm sure that wasn't easy.

Savannah (05:35):
it's never easy.
Nothing's easy, right?
But now that I look back, I'mlike, well, was it as hard as I
made it out to me?
Who knows?

Erin (05:44):
I remember sitting on an airplane because I thought about
law at one time too.
And I was sitting on theairplane and the lady next to me
was going to law school and Isaw like these big, massive
books.
And I, she's like, that's justone book for one class.
I was like, Nope, that's not forme.
And my brother's actually going,my younger brother's going to
law school right now.
And I'm like, I just, Oh man,that's a lot of work.
So hats off because that is noeasy task.

(06:08):
Could you define what elderabuse exactly is like, how is it
defined?
Is it emotional?
Is it physical, financial?
All of it.

Savannah (06:18):
So like I was saying, elder abuse starts when we have
somebody reaches a certain agepoint or there's little carve
outs in the law that say if likeit's a dependent adult and we
have these little checklists tosee if somebody reaches that.
But once you get to this pointwhere you are considered an
elder or a dependent adult,depending on which state you're

(06:41):
Then we move into this area ofelder loss.
talking about elder abuse.
We only get there once we reachthose parts, right?
But then if we look at whatconstitutes elder abuse, we're
really looking at financialelder abuse.
There's physical elder abuse.
There can be, of course,emotional elder abuse.

(07:03):
There can be alienation as aform of abuse.
Right?
We see that a lot where somebodystarts to control access to
communication or to other familymembers or friends.
So elder abuse as a whole reallyis not just financial, though
financial is a huge part andprobably arguably one of the

(07:27):
most common, right?
because there's so much to gain.
And so attracts maybe peoplethat would otherwise not.
Be considered abusers.

John (07:38):
Wow.

Erin (07:39):
There's a lot to it.

John (07:40):
There is a lot to it.
so What are some of the mostcommon signs and symptoms that
people that, Are near or arecommunicating with elderly
people, or the aging population?
What are some signs that theycan see?
if they have just quickinteractions.
where maybe they are beingabused by a family member or a
caregiver.

(08:00):
What are some signs out therethat they you'd be able to tell?

Savannah (08:04):
we have all different people that can come in and step
in.
So elder abuse is most commonlyidentified by the, bankers,
right?
'cause we see for financialelder abuse, we see money going
to weird places.
So sometimes bankers willnotice, family members and
friends sometimes will notice.
It's important to keep in mind avery.

(08:26):
Like what you said really is thenail on the head and that's that
elder abuse is most commonlyoccurs at the hand of a
caregiver or somebody that'svery close to the senior, right?
So now it's how do we identifythis when we're so in and out?
And it's really challengingbecause on one hand you might
have a child who's taking careof their parent and it seems on

(08:50):
the outs like this is reallyimportant.
This.
This mom maybe has dementia andaren't they lucky to have a
child coming in and taking careof their life?
And maybe that's all that'sgoing on and how dare like a
random person come in andinterfere with this.
On the other hand, if you look alittle closely, which you don't
want to intrude, right?

(09:11):
Is that child now taking toomuch money?
Are they misappropriating?
Are they getting a little bittoo physical because they get
frustrated?
On a quick snapshot, I would saythe only people that are really
able to identify elder abuse ona snapshot without getting some
kind of additional informationis going to be like a banker,

(09:32):
right?
Those are the people that don'tknow a whole lot of information
and they're like, why are weseeing money being wired to,
across the world, right?
Or, I've actually seen seniorsgo in and try and wire tens of
thousands of dollars to thePrince of Egypt.
And it's you don't know thePrince of Egypt.
He doesn't want your 80, 000,right?
So those are really quick.

(09:53):
But that's not very common,right?
That's not the norm.
So I'd say what to look out for,and these aren't things that you
notice right away.
It's going to be like somethingthat you see over and over
again.
Patterns.
Are you able to communicate withyour loved one, right?
Do they have access to phones?
Do they have access to,visitors?
Are they able to not necessarilyProductive visitation, right?

(10:17):
Because if you're later stagesof dementia, maybe your, time
with your family is not very,exciting, but are you able to
see your loved one?
If you have open access, thenthat's really important.
If you don't, or if you findthat it's getting closed off
routinely or repeatedly, thenthat could be.
a sign of elder abuse.
If you see bruises, that ofcourse could be elder abuse.

(10:40):
If you notice that somebody, Ihad one person notice elder
abuse when they got a call thatsaid, my, my ATM card was
declined.
I'm just at the grocery storebuying milk.
I don't know why.
That little itty bitty,statement was enough to have
somebody looking to be like, whycan't you afford milk?
you should, your ATM cardshouldn't be declined for milk.
And then we looked into it andsaw that so much money had gone,

(11:03):
checking mail, making sure iftheir bills aren't getting paid,
why are these things not gettingpaid?
Is it because they aren't doingit themselves or because
somebody's coming in and it'snot taking care of them.
So I think you want to keep aneye just overall on if things
are going or if there issomebody that or something
that's happening that gives youlike that icky feeling and very

(11:25):
often for elder abuse, much likewith children, if you have a gut
feeling, you should follow thatgut feeling.
The worst that happens is you'rewrong.
And being wrong when it comes toelder abuse is not good.
It's like the best outcomebecause that means there isn't
actually elder abuse.
So, you know, trust your gut.
Don't turn the other, don't turna blind eye and just see.

Erin (11:46):
I know we've talked about a few different things, but
really we've talked about familymembers or a caretaker.
But where can elder abusehappen?
Not just in our homes, maybe infacilities, maybe like where
you've seen it mostly happen orwe know it can happen anywhere,
but sometimes there may beplaces we don't realize, hey, it

(12:07):
could happen here too.

Savannah (12:10):
So financial elder abuse occurs mostly through,
taking of money, but it can besmall amounts.
Like I'm going to go out todinner every day with this
person and I'm going to makethem pay for me.
if they don't have the abilityto say yes or no on whether they
want.
To spend 100 every night ondinner, or gosh, costs are

(12:31):
getting so high.
That can be how elder abuseappears as little bits of money.
Elder abuse can appear withhouses being redeeded or estate
plans being redone so thatyou're not, somebody different
would inherit than wasoriginally intended.
We see elder abuse in.

(12:54):
Homes, right?
Of course, with that alienationkind of idea that somebody is
being cut off in.
And that can be in the house,right?
When they're livingindependently, or it can also be
when they're in some kind ofassistive living.
If they're being isolated, thenthat can be a form of elder
abuse when they are receivingcare.
If you see, I spoke to somebodyrecently and their loved one had

(13:16):
tons of bed sores, right?
Just and bed sores that had notjust happened In, a short period
of time, but we're there fordays and days that can be a form
of elder abuse, not having theappropriate food can be a form
of elder abuse.
And so we can see it that wayand so really, it appears.

(13:38):
In home, it appears atfacilities.
Physically, it appears at banksfinancially.
And so all of these places thatan elder interacts can be
subject to it.
But I think the probably 1 ofthe most.
I would say just life changingand financially devastating is

(13:59):
when somebody takes a house froma senior and then tries to kick
out the senior from their house.
And now they're left typicallyon a fixed income with nowhere
to go.
And that's it.
It's really, really tragic.

Erin (14:11):
This might sound like a silly question, but when people
do financial scams with elderly,is that also considered to be
elder abuse?

Savannah (14:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
So again, it's not as common,right?
I saw the woman that said, I gotan email from the Prince of
Egypt and he wants me to sendhim 80, 000 and he'll give me a
million or whatever, but we'veseen, I'm sure we've all gotten
a text message or a phone callfrom the IRS or the post office
or all of these people sayingyou're whatever the claim is.
And send us money and we'll fixit.

(14:41):
That's a financial scam.
Typically, they're a little bitsmaller, depending on how that
goes.
That is any time that isfinancial elder abuse.
Financial elder abuse isbasically taking the elders
money, right?
The seniors money in a way thatis financial elder abuse.
perpetuate some kind of fraud ormisappropriates or does it

(15:02):
without what we would considerthe consent of the elder?
And consent is if they knew whatyou were doing with it, would
they still give it to you?
Not like I asked them for 10,000 and they, signed the check.
Yeah.
But if they knew what you weregoing to do with the 10, 000,
would they still be giving it toyou?
so that's, the not legaldefinition, but an easy way to

(15:23):
understand what financial elderabuse is.
And so whether it's a penny or amillion or over dollars, right,
it's all financial elder abuse.

John (15:32):
is financial elder abuse probably one of the easiest to
discover and to, I guess build acase on and so forth and like
physical and stuff becausepeople can always physically
abuse an elder and then threatenthem or cover them up with,
loose clothing so that you can'ttell.
But with financial elder abuse,I'm sure it's pretty obvious

(15:54):
when you can see that, like yousaid, there's been these big
transfers of money or there'sbeen some big changes.

Savannah (16:01):
So financial elder abuse, the paper trail is
usually a little more clear,right?
Because money goes in, moneycomes out.
If it was taken You know, incash, and there's no
explanation.
There's kind of a presumptionthat the trick about financial
elder abuse is we assume thatlike anybody over 18 can make
any kind of decisions they want,right?

(16:23):
We give that's like afundamental right as a human
being to be able to make yourown decisions.
So where the tricky part inelder abuse is you'll oftentimes
see people saying, yeah, but Ireally like this person.
And they should be rewarded.
Rewarded.
my caregiver is having a reallyhard time and their car got
repossessed and their kid isreally sick.
And it's fine for me to buy thema car.

(16:45):
Like, I don't mind doing it.
And you're like, yeah, but youshouldn't be buying them a car,
right?
You're paying for their wages.
don't mind going to target.
Like I wanted to go to targettoo.
They were doing me a favor bygoing to target.
I had to pick up some things.
So just to be nice, I thoughtI'll pick up their tab as well.
So those are some of the areasthat financial elder abuse can

(17:08):
be a little tricky is because wewant, yeah, you're right.
You can pick up the tab.
You could buy somebody a car,right?
So what?
Point is it outside of just thenormal human's ability to
consent, but you are correct,the paper trail is a lot easier.
For physical abuse, just likefamily law, right, and what we

(17:29):
would consider traditionaldomestic violence, the victim of
somebody who is suffering fromemotional abuse or physical
abuse can sometimes have areally difficult time speaking
up.
And when we're talking aboutseniors.
They're so reliant in most caseson the necessities of life,
getting food, many of them cravecompanionship, and so this

(17:52):
person is maybe not a goodcompanion, but they're, and they
think, Oh, well, I'm never goingto be able to go to, I'm going
to be sitting in my own feces ifI say anything.
So I'd rather just not.
And so you, have the sameconcerns that you would have in
a traditional domestic violencesituation, but then you compound
it with the fact that they don'thave parents that are there to

(18:15):
check in on them or anotherfamily member.
Family member.
Typically, there's no area inthe law that is presumed to make
sure that this senior is takencare of.
It requires somebody else tocome in and take affirmative
action, which again, we don'twant to necessarily do that
because who's to say whetherthis person, is not able to make
their decisions.

Erin (18:36):
What are some best practices to protect ourselves
as we age?
As we're getting older.
Making sure that we don't havethat financial abuse, the
emotional abuse.
What are things we can put inplace?

Savannah (18:49):
Well, emotional abuse, hopefully, you know, we've all
learned some tools over our manyyears of wisdom that we can take
with us.
I don't know, as an individual,if you can, once you get to that
stage in life, if you haven'tlearned them, you may still
learn them.
be susceptible or there might besome disease that comes in and

(19:09):
impairs your ability to preventemotional abuse.
I would say the best thing toprevent like an emotional abuse
situation or a physical abusesituation that newly occurring
in somebody who's a senior is tohave outside people come in and
check in on you, right?
have a variety of people in yourlife so that there's a variety

(19:31):
of people that can come in andbe like, huh, that's weird.
Wow, I haven't been able to goin and see Rachel in a while.
I normally hear from her, youknow, the checks, the checking
in.
As far as what we can do to makesure that we're cared for, and
that maybe are financially we'renot taking advantage of.
Again, I'm a big fan of checksand balances.

(19:51):
Make sure you have, You know,your legal documents in place, a
power of attorney, advancedhealthcare directive, your
estate plan, but then have,again, a check and balance in
place.
Maybe you have one person that'sgoing to be making your
healthcare and everydaydecisions if you can't do it.
And you have another personthat's going to be paying for
all of those everyday decisions.

(20:12):
So that we don't have one personthat Maybe is susceptible to
saying, I'll go to Costco.
This is a true story.
I'll go to Costco and I'll makesure that this person has food
because that's my job.
But I'm also writing the checkfor the Costco.
So instead of I'm just going inand buying, you know, a case of
insure or whatever you get atCostco for one, I'm a senior.

(20:36):
I'll buy 800 every week to feedmy entire family, right?
So having, separating thepowers, I think is always the
best idea.
And you can do that in advanceon your estate plan, but that
way you have other people thatare watching out for you.
And it's less likely, it doesn'tmean it's impossible, but it's

(20:56):
less likely to have a conspiracyof people that are going to
allow you to be the victim offinancial elder abuse.

John (21:05):
So what do we do when it comes to the geographic division
now a family is living away fromeach other, right?
So you'll have some familieswhere the children are living in
California.
The parents are living in Iowaor Idaho or wherever, you know,
and how do we protect, I mean,I've always thought, gosh, it
might be a good idea to havecameras in the home, right?

(21:26):
And strategic locations so thatyou can one, see them when
you're out of state.
And so there's a delicatebalance of making sure that your
parents don't feel like they'rebeing monitored or they're
always on camera.
Right.
and they hate that or something,but then there's also the
delicate balance of man, if Islip and fall, And nobody knows

(21:49):
I'm down.
Or if I do have a caregiverthat's stealing from me or,
abusing me, it's nice to havecameras in here that I can
monitor that from afar.
what is the legality when itcomes to that?

Savannah (22:02):
Well, so hidden cameras are like probably a no
in every single state.
And by hidden cameras, I meanlike persons whose house it is
doesn't even know they're there.
So I don't know that in anystate in the United States.
So you can check with yourjurisdiction, whether it's
allowed to go and hide cameras.

(22:22):
cameras in like my parents housejust so I can keep an eye on
them.
That seems to me that would be ahuge invasion of privacy.
I think that's an ongoingproblem and I don't actually
know that we have a solution atthis point.
I have many clients who say whenI'm talking about who's going to
make their decisions or if weneed to go in and get a
conservatorship, they're like, Idon't have anybody.

(22:43):
okay, so there's professionals,right?
You can have a professional.
There are professionalfiduciaries that will come in
and act as a successor trustee,a conservator, or in any
fiduciary position.
They cost money.
Right.
So now we're stuck in asituation where, which is so
common that there's not enoughmoney to pay a professional to

(23:05):
do this, but we still needsomebody to be in place.
I don't have an answer for thatother than I hope that as we all
age, we surround ourselves withenough people that love us,
whether that's a family memberor a close community that there
is somebody that you can decide,but it's not impossible at the
same time to have a familymember that's far away come in

(23:27):
and right.
So if you do have family that'sliving far away with technology
the way it is, it is possible toWatch the finances to act and
take care of them and thendepending on how many, how much
they need, right, how much areyou, you know, if you are at an
advanced stage of Alzheimer's,you probably need to be in an

(23:49):
assisted, a memory carefacility, not living on your
whole, home with just cameras,right?
So a lot of that is going to betaken on a case by case basis
for family, but family involvedis the most important.
Look at the finances.
Even if you're with mom or dadand you're like, Hey, I'm not
going to take them over.
Let's just look at it.

(24:09):
Check in on them.
Be involved.
Visit.
You just want to be the activerole.
One, because maybe you'll noticesomething in advance.
But two, the people that are theabusers don't want to be
involved in a family wherethey're going to be watched and
scrutinized, right?
They're going to go for the easyvictims that don't have an
involved family.

Erin (24:27):
I think that's a huge takeaway that I've taken away
during this conversation so faris surround yourself by many
people.
And we talk about community alot and wanting to bring that
back.
And it is very important.
And this is just another reasonwhy to have your neighbors, to
have your family.
To have maybe your coworkers andyeah, just the importance of

(24:50):
community was huge.
So I'm glad you said

John (24:51):
that.
Thank you.
I agree.
And I, I Also think that, youknow, as we get older, maybe
we're not getting out as muchand so forth, but we have some
prized possessions or heirloomsthat we don't want anything to
happen to.
Maybe put them with a familymember or put them in a safe
deposit box for protection.
you can always still get accessto them if you need them, but

(25:12):
then they're not going to walkoff, and some of those smaller
items I'm sure do.
I don't know that factually, butI know a lot of the um,
caregiving companies when theyhire.
When they hire a caregiver, theyhave to go through a pretty,
pretty deep background check andstuff.

Erin (25:26):
Well, I'm going to say no, they don't depend on what state
you're in.
So it is very, to be verycareful,

Savannah (25:33):
Not to be the Debbie Downer, but most of your stuff
nobody wants, right?
We don't have, there's not ahuge demand for antiques
anymore, there's not a hugedemand for collectibles, so
those are going to besentimental in most cases to the
fan, to the individual, and inmany cases your family doesn't
even want them either and mightsay, I'll take them, but we'll
get rid of them.

(25:54):
I think One of the things aboutcommunity that gets really
challenging when you have asenior is we're such independent
people, especially, you know,the old, you're just, you want
to be independent.
That's what you want from, thetime you can reason.
It's I don't want my parentsanymore.
I want to be on my own.
And then you.
Get to a point where it's like,I don't want to give up my
house.
Like, I like living at home.

(26:16):
I don't want to do these things.
And so if we, you know, if youcan have a conversation, we're
not going to take you out ofyour house necessarily, but
maybe we're going to put you in,maybe you consider moving to a,
an assisted living where.
You have your own condo, butyou're in a community and you
have people that can check onyou, or there's so many

(26:36):
different ways of living thatallow for independence, but also
have that sense of community.
Because quite frankly, if youare.
If you are 75 and you live in asingle family home, I'll use
California as an example, in atrack community, you're probably
mostly surrounded by familiesand families are dealing with

(27:01):
working every day and kids andall of these things and they
usually are not going to beWanting to get to know their
neighbors, but if you'resurrounded by other people that
are over 55, then you have moretime to sit on the porch to gab
to play cards or chess orwhatever you do,

Erin (27:19):
I just, for my own curiosity, we've been doing a
little bit of research.
Are you noticing more elderlymove in together and cohabitate
like a group of friends maybe,cause we talk about, we don't
want to live in an assisted orindependent.
We still want to be in our homeand have control over our own
space.
So we're living together as abunch of friends.

Savannah (27:37):
the golden girls.

Erin (27:38):
Yes,

Savannah (27:40):
I have not seen an uptick in that.
However, I think it would beawesome.
And I have spoken with otherpeople, especially because we
have this, affordable housingcrisis and it's affecting our
seniors.
It seems that there's a wholelot of.
The baby boomers are nowretiring and, without being
insulting, I don't know that thebaby boomers planned for

(28:01):
retirement, maybe as well asthey should.
So we have a big problem rightnow with affordable housing for
seniors.
So I have been involved inconversations where there, are
discussions about pushing thatagenda, right?
Should we have these housing coops where people can come in and
rent a room, but you're, you'relike in a Golden Girls thing.

(28:21):
But in real life, I haven't seenit.
It sounds super fun.
And, maybe one day, I don't knowthat people want to go back to
being roommates though.
Like my daughter's a roommateand she's 19 and I think it
sounds miserable.
So maybe.
might be a hard sell forsomebody who's 70.

Erin (28:37):
right?
What are some steps that youtake if you suspect as a family
member, someone that someone isbeing abused one way or another?
What are the first steps?
Do you call adult protectiveservices?
Do you show up at a courthouse,the police station?

Savannah (28:52):
So the FBI is opening a whole branch for financial
elder abuse.
So I think now that's reallyexciting.
You can file a case with theFBI.
Always law enforcement.
Almost every DA I've ever seenhas a sector for financial elder
abuse.
And it can be criminal.
So I think reporting it to theFBI.

(29:12):
The local police department isimportant adult protective
services or something to thateffect.
We have adult protectiveservices in California.
We also have a group called theombudsman's for seniors that
live in assisted living or somekind of residence.
So I think all of that is areally great free resource we

(29:35):
have.
There's a lot of charities.
A simple Google search for yourarea and senior resources is a
great place to start.
Local senior centers can havethose different resources.
And then at the end of the day,there's private attorneys like
myself that can really help.
provide information not only toa senior if they think that they
are the victim.

(29:55):
I'll say it's less likely that Iget calls from the victims
themselves.
And it's more common that I getcalls from somebody that's
concerned.
So somebody that's concernedcould also call a private
attorney like me and say, here'swhat's happening.
Do I have to be concerned?
And am I the right person to dosomething?
Or is there a different personin this case that should really

(30:17):
be the one taking action?

John (30:19):
That's great.
So I know we talked about thesteps.
So when somebody does abuse anelder, whether it's financially,
physically, or whatever they do,what are some of the
repercussions that can happen tothat person that is, abusing the
elder?
what happens to them?

Savannah (30:37):
Well, it really depends what they do, right?
Somebody that's, misappropriatesa penny is probably going to
have less of a punishment thansomebody who takes, a million
dollars.
So we'll talk about them alittle bit separately.
If somebody is alienating asenior, then those typically
show up when it's like a personthat has some fiduciary power, a
power of attorney or something,they can lose their right to act

(31:01):
on behalf.
If we're talking about acriminal violation, It should be
no surprise there.
You can go to jail, right?
That's the kind of therepercussion for violating a
criminal law.
And then under the civil codes,if you do something like
misappropriate money, you can beforced to not only pay that
back, but to pay.
double or sometimes even triplethe amount of money that you

(31:25):
stole or that you know, youtook.
So again, it really depends onwhere we are and what was going
on, but there's some prettyserious penalties.
I don't want to go to jail.
I don't think anybody does.

John (31:37):
You know, I think that some people, that do
misappropriate the funds and soforth and use the funds for
personal use or whatever, orphysically abuse them.
Some of them don't haveanything, right?
Some of them don't have money.
So it's, yes, I could see themhaving to serve jail time, but
you can't sue somebody and get,try to get finances from them.

(31:58):
if They don't have anything,

Savannah (32:00):
Prevention is always key, right?
I always tell people like, Iknow it's a big deal to, take
this action, especially ifyou're not sure if it's, really
happening or not, but it's awhole lot easier to stop the
bleed than it is to go Andrecover.
And it's for those exactreasons.
We can prove.
Let's say we do prove thatsomebody took, 250, 000 dollars,

(32:23):
the entire retirement account,but by the time we prove it,
that money is long gone.
That person is what I calljudgment proof.
And so now you basically get apiece of paper signed by a judge
with a red pen.
And what are you gonna do withit?
like nothing.
You can't do anything with it.
So getting ahead of it is superimportant.
jail time.

(32:43):
I don't think most people wantto serve.
But even more than that, ifsomebody doesn't have any money,
you're never going to be able tocollect on it.
So it's really one of thosethings that we want As a society
get become more aware of get onestep ahead of so that as soon as
we notice it, we can stop itrather than waiting until
somebody loses their house hasall of their money stolen and

John (33:06):
Yeah, for

Erin (33:07):
Sure, earlier we talked about ways and where someone can
report the abuse.
I assume, I don't know, youwould know better than me.
There's fear in reporting it,right?
Like you were saying earlier, ifI say something, I'll be sitting
in my feces all day.
If this happens, what are therepercussions?
And I don't know if you havesome words of encouragement or

(33:27):
something we can tell ourlisteners of, hey, This is why
it's important to report this.
You're worth it to tellsomebody.

Savannah (33:37):
without, you know, instilling a whole lot of fear
in somebody.

John (33:40):
Yeah.

Savannah (33:41):
like those, everything that we've already talked about,
it's if we can't recover it,it's too late.
I think 1 of the biggestreasons, especially that seniors
don't report is they are.
so afraid of the lack ofcompanionship, right?
They just, and they are soreliant on the people.
Remember, the most common personto commit elder abuse is a

(34:05):
caregiver or a close familymember.
And the caregiver or the closefamily member is typically that
involved because the seniorneeds something, right?
Needs the groceries, needs to betaken to the doctor, needs all
of this, doesn't have anybodyelse to That can do it and can't
do it themself.
So we have this huge fear thatno, they're going to be left

(34:27):
alone and they're not going tobe able to get food and go to
the grocery store.
So I think understanding that'snot going to happen.
We're going to make sure thatyou are taken care of and it's a
far easier to make.
Make sure you're taken care ofbefore it gets as bad as it
possibly could, right?

(34:47):
If we can get ahead of it, thenwe can get in, we can stop it.
We can make sure if it's yourchild that you still have a
relationship with that child,but that it's a safe and healthy
relationship.
And we can make sure that you'regetting everything that you
need.
So kind of that, that comfortthat you're not going to lose it
all.
if you report that.
It's reported and put yourself1st

John (35:09):
Yeah, that's so incredibly important.
and, I've been in the, thisworld for a very long time and
finding resources and supportiveservices for people that are
aging.
And I've noticed that, there canbe also the other side of it,
where you have somebody that hasa little bit of dementia or
whatever, and they startyelling, he hit me or she hurt

(35:29):
me or whatever, when that reallydidn't happen.
And so that plays into things aswell, because everything has to
be investigated.
Anytime you have a claim ofabuse.
Especially in assisted livings,or independence and so forth.
It has to be investigated.
But you'll find that happeningto.
But companionship andloneliness, I think, is a huge
factor that plays into it.

(35:51):
Because as we get older, There'sa lot of things we can't do by
ourselves.
And then we need the assistanceof somebody else.
And maybe we, our family doeslive out of state.
And so we're really reliant onthat caregiver.
And so it's just such a fineline, of, yeah, of what is
acceptable and what is notacceptable,

Savannah (36:10):
and.
it's so easy to say, right?
But that idea, if you'reinvolved, if you are involved
and that person, or you, whenyou, when we all get that age,
have more than 1 person around,we're going to feel more
comfortable reporting an issuebecause we're going to know,
hey, I got.
grandchild that's going to comein and help me, I have somebody

(36:32):
else that I'm going to be ableto rely on.
So the more, the merrier, right?
We want the more, the merrier.

Erin (36:38):
back to the financial part.
Do you suggest, going to yourbank or wherever your finances
are and putting a limit on stuffor saying, Hey, if you see, just
maybe filling them in going, I'mat home, I have a caregiver.
If you start seeing thesethings, or I only can spend 200
a day or my mom or dad, or doyou suggest putting any of that

(36:59):
in?

Savannah (36:59):
no, I don't suggest that at all.
I think that sounds like a hugeissue.
I can't imagine the bank woulddo it if anybody other than the
person asked.
And I don't even think a bankwould do it if the person asked.
But here's why I don't thinkthat is necessary.
I don't even think it would behelpful.
Banks already are aware.
Of what's going on, and banksalready will step in oftentimes
and be like, did you do this?
I don't what's going on.

(37:21):
get fraud alerts all the time.
So banks are aware of it.
So putting them on notice.
I don't know that's going to doanything.
And then a lot of times thesepeople are aware of what's
happening, right?
Like I want a 200 spending limittoday, but tomorrow, I don't
care that yesterday I told youthat I wanted a 200 spending
limit, today I want 600 it's mymoney, so you better remove it.

(37:43):
So I don't think that any ofthat is going to be helpful, and
I think it would probably causemore problems than it would
solve.

John (37:49):
I have a very close friend of mine that just had a
situation happen where.
it was, somebody that was sayingit was telling his father, Oh,
go out and buy these Apple giftcards and then give me the
numbers on the bottom of it.
And at the end of the monthwe'll transfer a million dollars
into

Erin (38:05):
your account or whatever.
And so,

Savannah (38:06):
That's like a very, very huge scam, but it doesn't
just affect seniors.
I've known, you know, youngpeople that have fallen for it

John (38:13):
yeah, so I told, it is good to have somebody else
helping you with your financesas you age too and becoming
aware of it.
And so I did recommend to Mike,I said, well, why don't you with
that?
leave a chunk of money in hisaccount, but then you let him
know that you're going to helpassist him with his mortgage,

(38:33):
his utilities and everything.
And therefore you want to haveaccess to his main account that
you can monitor and you can see.
And, I think once he and hisbrother did that, They were,
they felt so much better thatdad wasn't out buying these
apple gift cards.
Right.
and they could talk to him aboutit and he was still convinced
that he was going to get thismillion dollars.

(38:54):
But, Yeah, it it slowed it down.
So I think it is important to beinvolved.
not necessarily control becausemom and dad still want to go out
and buy a bottle of wine ortreat themselves to a cup of
coffee or whatever, You don'twant to just take full control
and then ration it to them.
But I think to be involved andhave that discussion early is
important, you know?

Savannah (39:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the best thing you cando is have these discussions Or
it's necessary because once it'snecessary, now you're just
insulting the person and saying,you can't do this.
You're getting taken advantageof.
And that is not going to be ahelpful conversation at all.
to have it in advance is a goodidea.
I'm an attorney, though, so I'ma big fan of not taking away

(39:37):
people's rights unless there's areason to.
I also have seen quite a bit ofproblems with just going on
people's accounts.
Every single situation needs tobe handled separately.
uniquely.
And so if a family can cometogether and have those open
communications and figure outsomething that's going to work
for them, I think that's a greatidea.
And we're always looking for theleast restrictive means, right?

(40:00):
We don't want, just like you'resaying, we don't want to go in
and take total control.
We don't want to put you in alocked facility if you are, you
know, just need somebody toadminister your meds like we
want to do these things.
So wherever we're at, we want toconsider it.
And we want to come up with theleast restricted means.
But if you can have opencommunication, that's great.
If you don't have a familymember or a family situation

(40:23):
where you can have that opendiscussion.
find somebody, an attorney thatis confidential, a pastor, a
therapist, a friend, somebodythat you can be like, I need
help figuring out how to makesure I'm taken care of.

Erin (40:37):
Do you have advice on maybe how to open up and have a
conversation with a familymember?
Because sometimes maybe, wedon't see ourselves as ever
losing control or our mind orgetting older.
And I don't want you knowing mybusiness, you're my kid, but we
need to have those conversationsand it can be hard to have them.
Do you have advice that youshare with other families?

(40:58):
these are how you can maybestart a conversation.

Savannah (41:02):
I tell my clients when they have to go and have a
difficult conversation.
And when I'm, sometimes I'm theone that has to be having these
conversations with a senior totreat it, first of all, don't
talk down.
We're not talking down.
We're not talking to a child.
We're talking to an adult that'sbeen, for the most part, very
self sufficient for their entirelives, so don't talk down to

(41:24):
them.
and I, these are really basic,so you might be thinking, duh,
Rachel, but I think if we can goback to them, then it will
really help in thecommunication.
Don't talk down.
Don't talk like they're notthere.
That doesn't do anything either.
And ask questions and ask fortheir opinions and their

(41:45):
feedback.
Their opinions matter.
It's their life.
And even if somebody hasadvanced their opinion matters.
It makes somebody feel, andthese are good, just
communication tips in general.
If you can make somebody feellike their opinion matters and
you're listening to them.
And you're not talking over themand you're not talking down to

(42:06):
them, you're going to get abetter receptive, feedback and
have a better conversation,

John (42:12):
I think it's such, such a.
Interesting area to be in,right?
Because yes, as we get older, webecome very independent and we
don't want anybody taking any ofthat independence away yet.
I think children fear, right?
It's like, wait a minute.
I really want to know how muchmoney you and dad have or you
and mom have, because we don'thave a lot of money and I can't

(42:35):
afford to pay for all your care.
So where are you financially?
So there's this, This reallydelicate balance of trying to be
respectful, but also trying tomake sure that you're
communicating effectively.
And I love that you said, don'ttalk down to them, don't treat
them like they're children.
be respectful, treat them theway you'd want to be treated and
just say, Hey, not to saythere's ever going to be a

(42:58):
situation that happens, but.
Let's figure out a plan B justin case, how can I help support
you?
And if you come back, comethrough in a loving way, I think
it's much better than sittingthere saying, okay, I'm taking
care of it.
I'm taking over your finances.
You just bought an Apple cardand sent this information
somewhere.
You're done.
I'm taking over.

Erin (43:16):
you can't do that.
Cause

John (43:18):
still the parent.
You're still the child, That'sright.

Erin (43:22):
right?

Savannah (43:23):
but I mean, it goes, it goes so far and take parent
and child away from it just,like human, basic human
interaction.
If.
you can ask the question and notand maybe there's a little bit
of, people get tense about it.
But if you say, hey, we'll stickwith the mom and dad scenario
because I've had thisconversation with my parents.

(43:46):
Hey, Where are you on retire?
Like, my parents are retired.
Where are you on retirement?
Like, are we talking where Ineed to think about having you
come in and move in with me atsome point if you can't afford
your own life?
Or did you plan for retirement?
I don't need to know how muchmoney you have.
But I do want to know at whatpoint you're going to be

(44:06):
expecting me.
to step in, right?
Or have you got it all sortedout so that I don't need you to?
And not from a hard place, justa real life place.
And I think that's very fair.
When I talked to my parentsabout it and I said, look, I
have my own family, I have myown finances and I have my own
retirement to worry about, but Ilove you.

(44:29):
And I know you love me, and Iknow you don't want to be a
financial burden on me oranything, so let's just talk
about it.
do I need to because I'm happyto, or do I not?
and what does that look like?
I don't know, still, how muchmoney my parents have because
it's not my business, but I knowkind of what that looks like,
and I know what they would beexpecting of me as far as where,

(44:52):
what my role would be.
And the worst thing is to go inand reprimand after.
And I always tell people like,did that go over well with you?
If you told somebody I didn'tsave for retirement.
And then they're like, Oh mygosh, come down.
You just walk away and tune themout and be like, okay, I'm never
having that conversation again.

(45:12):
So asking the question and it'slike, I call it like marriage
counseling, one on one don'trespond, just listen.
And then come back another

Erin (45:23):
Are you talking to us?

John (45:25):
No,

Erin (45:25):
just kidding.

John (45:27):
I agree with that.
It's funny.
We were just talking to somebodya couple of days ago and we have
really gotten into an area oflife or our society.
For the most part, We listen torespond.
We don't listen to hear.
And I think that we really needto slow the conversations down
and we need to pause.
and We really need to.
Listen to what's being told tous, not just automatically

(45:49):
react, And,

Erin (45:51):
respecting, you know, so.
So I have a final question foryou.
It's my turn to ask it.
We love to travel.
And I'm sure our listeners aretired, but we love to travel.
Where is some place that youhave been or you would love to
go on your adventure list?

Savannah (46:08):
I don't have a trip planned that's on my adventure
list just now, but for my 40thbirthday, I went to New York and
I stayed in Manhattan on theUpper East Side and I chose, I'd
never been to New York.
But I chose it because I love torun and I wanted to run Central

(46:29):
Park because so many people runCentral Park and it was one of
the best trips and I've had somepretty great trips, but this was
one of the best trips I've everhad.
my husband and I were liketotally faking it till we make
it right.
We did all of the things thatwere so ludicrous and you can't
afford on a daily basis.
But for like the four days thatwe were in New York, we really

(46:52):
lived.
Like we were multi billionaires,and felt it and it was
fantastic.

John (46:58):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah.
you never know if you haveanother tomorrow.
Right.
And so sometimes I think it'simportant that you live like
that and you experience life tothe fullest.
Not that you can't on a smallerbudget, but, I know people that
save and save and save and saveand then they get older and they
can't do anything.
They can't move.
They can't go out experience anytrips or anything like that.

(47:21):
so I love

Erin (47:21):
that you did that.
Yeah, that's super cool.

Savannah (47:24):
everybody says, I'm going to do it in retirement.
And I used to be like that too.
I still am to a certain extent,but mostly the things I'm going
to do now in retirement aresimply because I have to work
and it doesn't fit on my,timetable.
But Man, I'm a very conservativeperson financially.
And I think that even still,sometimes you just got to go and

(47:45):
do that one thing that youreally wanted to do.
The problem is you can't do itevery day, which once you had a
taste of it, it's really to belike, Oh, shoot,

John (47:53):
so besides running in Central Park, which I'd love to
experience that too, but what isone more thing you did in New
York that blew your mind?
You, spent the money for it andyou and your husband go, that
was worth every

Erin (48:06):
single penny.

Savannah (48:08):
really good seats on Broadway.
And I didn't know I liked plays.
So let's just be clear.
I did not think I was intoplays.
I'm not a concert person.
I can appreciate live bandperformances and live, theater.
But I didn't ever think that Iwas not like what I wanted to

(48:29):
do.
When I went to New York, Ithought, well, I'm here.
Broadway is here.
Like that would be foolish.
not to go see a Broadway.
And so we saw, we got reallygood seats at Wicked and then we
got pretty good seats at theBook of Mormon.
And I have to say they weretotally opposites, but I didn't
know how much I loved theater,like Broadway shows.

(48:53):
And now I just fantasize aboutgetting on an airplane on a
Friday night just for a Broadwayshow on Saturday.

Erin (48:59):
Wow.

Savannah (48:59):
done that yet, but it's like a fantasy.

Erin (49:02):
they have Broadway across America and they travel to
different big cities around theUS and they bring those shows to
those locations.
So that might

Savannah (49:10):
So I Yeah, I've heard of that.
And I assume that in LA theyprobably do, but I don't know
that would be as cool, right?
what if I went to LA and Ididn't like it as much and then
I was like, Oh, I have, it wasso fantastic that it like holds
this amazing place in my heart.
So I'm thinking maybe I'll justkeep that place for Broadway.

John (49:30):
Yeah, we were in London and, yeah, the end of December,
early January.
And.
Aaron introduced me to high teaand so we dressed up really nice
and we went out and had high teaand that was a pretty incredible
experience.
I don't know if I do it all thetime, but, I'm glad I did it and
we did it in London.
it was good.

Savannah (49:49):
That's what it's all about though, right?
It's about trying the things,even the things that we've done
on vacation that have been like,Oh, I'd never do that again.
It's still so fun to be like,but I did it.
And it's like, So cool toexperience something new.

Erin (50:01):
Right.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime today and all the amazing
information on elder abuse.
I know very little and thisdefinitely helped open my mind,
really.
I mean, the FBI opening morestuff and the different places.
We have lots of resources outthere that feel that this is a
need.
So please report it, right?

(50:24):
Report it.
It is a.

Savannah (50:25):
right over reporting is better than under reporting
because the worst that happensis you're wrong.
And that only means thatsomebody is not getting abused.

Erin (50:34):
do you have any final words for our listeners?
Maybe something we didn't askyou, maybe something we didn't
say.

Savannah (50:40):
Uh, that's that, that I think that over reporting is
better than under reporting andnothing bad happens except the
only thing only good happens youeither reported and it is
Somebody is getting abused andwe can stop it or you report it
and somebody's not gettingabused and that's even better.

John (51:00):
Well, Thank you so much for being here with us and, go,
out.
we're all going into theweekends.
We, We hope you enjoy

Erin (51:06):
your weekend and get a lot of sunshine.
That's right.

Savannah (51:11):
Wonderful.
Thank you guys so much.
It was so nice meeting you

John (51:14):
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Connect
Empower.
We want to express our gratitudeto you for being part of our
community, and we hope today'sepisode has provided you with
valuable insights andinspiration to enhance your life
and that of a loved one.

Erin (51:29):
We are more than just a podcast.
We are a community dedicated toenhancing the lives of our aging
adults and their support system.
We encourage you to visit ourwebsite now at www.
connect empower.
com.
Explore more information aboutour guests from today's episode
and to access our freeresources.

John (51:50):
resources.
Our mission doesn't end at theconclusion of this episode.
We invite you to take action nowby sharing the knowledge you've
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Whether it's a family member,friend, or colleague, your
influence can spark positivechange.

Erin (52:05):
Remember, Subscribing to our podcast ensures you never
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So hit that subscribe button andstay connected with us.
Your commitment is the drivingforce behind our mission and
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as we age.

John (52:25):
I'm John.

Erin (52:26):
I'm Erin.
Until next Wednesday.