April 14, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of Connecting our Conversations, Rev. Dr. Shannan Vance-Ocampo is joined by Rev. Kathryn Beilke for a discussion on how our faith calls us to care for God's creation, and address the growing plastic pollution crisis.
Together, they explore:
- The accelerating production of plastics and its impact on the current climate and public health crises
- How practices like fasting from plastics can raise consciousness and catalyze permanent lifestyle changes
- The PC (USA)'s overture calling congregations to move from disposable to sustainable practices
Rev. Kathryn Beilke is a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary and served for a decade as Pastor of a progressive congregation, but the moral and spiritual urgency of our current ecological crises prompted her to leave the pulpit and dedicate herself to effective environmental solutions. Believing that state and local action can spark meaningful change, Rev. Beilke worked with municipalities navigating New York State’s Climate Smart Communities initiative before joining Beyond Plastics as the Development Manager. While she is ordained in the Presbyterian Church (USA), she believes in centering a diversity of traditions and indigenous perspectives in her work. She enjoys gardening, camping, hiking, biking, and paddle boarding with her family.
About Beyond Plastics:
Launched in January 2019, Beyond Plastics is a nationwide project based at Bennington College in Bennington, Vermont, that pairs the wisdom and experience of environmental policy experts with the energy and creativity of grassroots advocates to build a vibrant and effective movement to end plastic pollution.
Additional Resources:
Plastic Jesus
https://www.creationjustice.org/plasticjesus.html
Overture from the 226th General Assembly
https://www.pc-biz.org/search/3001145
Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo andmy pronouns are she and her,
and I serve as the generalpresbyter of the Presbytery of
Southern New England and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,USA.
For today's episode, we'regoing to be talking about
creation care and some resourcesfor your ministry related to
that, and I'm really excited towelcome my friend and colleague
here in the northeastern part ofthe Presbyterian Church in the
United States, the ReverendCatherine Belke, who serves as
(00:52):
the Development Manager forBeyond Plastics, and I know she
also does liaison work withfaith communities.
So, Catherine, we're so glad tohave you and welcome to the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me, Shannon.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, so let's start with some introductions.
I love to start off with justgiving whoever's on the podcast
an opportunity to introducethemselves and tell us a little
bit about who you are, inwhatever way best makes sense
for you.
So go ahead and tell us who youare, catherine.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sure.
So I am Reverend CatherineBilkey and I'm a Presbyterian
lifer, born and raised in StLouis, missouri, and grew up in
the Webster Groves PresbyterianChurch where I was baptized and
confirmed and wanted to continuestudying theology when I went
off to college at BaylorUniversity, which is a Baptist
university.
But I found an amazingPresbyterian church there where
(01:58):
I began exploring a call to theministry as I was studying
religion in college and was bothattending that Presbyterian
church but also an incredibleministry called Church Under the
Bridge with the Reverend JimmyDorrell who also runs a mission
(02:19):
there in Waco, texas, calledMission Waco, and I participated
in a lot of projects that wereoriented towards those who were
in vulnerable communities peopleaffected by poverty, drug
addiction, not having access tonutritional food, homelessness,
(02:47):
all sorts of vexing socialissues and sort of.
Having been a part of both ofthose communities at the same
time really helped shape my callto the ministry and having a
focus on social justice and mystudies, which I pursued at
(03:08):
Princeton Theological Seminaryand then, after graduating,
worked for about a decade inHudson, new York, as the pastor
of the First Presbyterian Churchof Hudson and really brought
that social justice focus to myministry, which was an urban
(03:28):
ministry, while in a smallcommunity, and so it really was
exactly where God intended itfor me to be at the time.
But I found in my work with thatchurch that we were all really
compelled by this stunninglandscape of the Hudson Valley,
that that was our reason for,you know, living in this context
(03:51):
and wanting, you know, moreconnection, more sense of
connection with creation, withnature, and so we pursued a
number of projects in which wecould really dig our hands into
the dirt quite literallyincluding, you know, building a
community garden that wasutilized by a lot of partners in
(04:12):
the community to have access tofresh produce into several
projects that where we werefishing in the Hudson River and
we were calling them parablefield trips, where we went off
(04:33):
and we went to a winery andstomped grapes to reflect on
these images that Jesus hasgiven us from creation.
And then that evolved into aproject called Earth Church,
which was affiliated with 1001New Worshiping Communities, and
it was just really aboutrecontextualizing worship on a
(04:54):
biodynamic farm that was in thiscommunity and understanding our
role as co-creators with God,and that sort of led me on this
journey about caring forcreation, but more deeply, in
terms of climate change andpolicy work, and so eventually,
(05:16):
when I decided it was time forme to transition out of the
congregation, I started workingwith communities that were
navigating New York State'sclimate law and our Climate
Smart Communities Initiative,which is essentially like a a la
carte menu of actions thatcommunities can take to both
(05:37):
mitigate and adapt to climatechange, and so I felt very
compelled at the time that, inorder to make a real impact, I
had to get out of the pulpit andstop talking about our
ecological crises and actuallyfocus on actions that were
impactful, and so, eventually,that work led me to Beyond
(05:57):
Plastics.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
That's great, and it's been fun to be alongside
you over the years watching allof these things unfold in
ministry.
And we could do a whole otherpodcast right on biodynamic
farms and what they have toteach us as faith communities,
which I think is a whole otherconversation for a whole other
day, but it's been really funlearning on these biodynamic
(06:21):
farms that are near to where youand I, where we live, so it's
really really fun.
So I wanted to you know, thisis a this sort of podcast series
we're starting in the spring of2025 for the Presbytery we're
trying to do some ministryresources, and so I'm really
excited to have you on to talkabout some ministry resources
(06:41):
related to creation care, and sowhy don't we start with just
talking about you know, how yousee creation care, the
theological pieces of it, what'sessential for us as people of
faith?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Well, I think the number one thing for me is that
Psalm that says the earth is theLord's and the fullness thereof
, and we are not the owners ofthis place that we call home.
We are not the arbiters of howit should be treated.
We are part of God's creation,not separate from it.
(07:20):
God, in fact, created us, theAdam, from the Adamah, from the
soil of the earth, and we areinherently in relationship with
everything in our ecosystem, andGod created all of those things
in a way such that there is anintended harmony, and we have
(07:42):
disrupted that harmony.
It's, you know, no secret.
Science has shown us thathumans are causing climate
change, we are causingecological destruction, we are
bringing death to the planetthat God entrusted to our care,
and so, for me, it's aboutrecovering that relationship of
(08:09):
being a part of creation andbeing called by God to care for
it and to be a co-creator ratherthan a destroyer.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that part in Genesisthat I think we often overlook,
at the beginning in the creationnarratives, where, you know,
god invited Adam to give namesto the animals, right, god
didn't.
You know we were part of thatnaming process and I think if
you name something, you have adeeper relationship to it.
(08:41):
You know we name our children,we name our pets deeper
relationship to it.
You know we name our children,we name our pets.
You know things like this, andthese are close familial love
relationships and so if we, youknow, in an ancestral sort of
way, we're part of the naming ofthese creatures, what's our
relationship right to them?
And we think about the climatecrisis and the mass extinction
(09:05):
events that are happening withour animal siblings and you know
, flora and fauna siblings,ecosystem siblings what does
that say to us as people offaith?
You know, what should we beabout?
These are super deep questionsfor me and, I think, really
primal questions as people offaith.
(09:26):
So, um, I appreciate youstarting there.
Uh, both in in Genesis, butalso in the Psalms, um, you know
, which are just such beautifulpieces of poetry in the
scripture.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
And I appreciate you, you framing it as a start,
because none of us know how tountangle ourselves from the, you
know, from the systems that weare a part of, from capitalism
and from systems that inherentlyhurt and harm our fellow
(09:59):
siblings in creation, increation.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So you know, I certainly only have questions
rather than answers, but it'syou know, led me to this point
in my journey, yeah, yeah, well,one of the things I know you
work on specifically right nowis you work with an organization
called Beyond Plastics, andthere's so many, so many pieces
to the harm that's happening toGod's gorgeous and beautiful
(10:26):
creation and that we are calledupon, as people of faith, to be
repairing and getting in the wayof, and one of those pieces
that's just so excuse me endemicand also just ubiquitous, right
, like it's everywhere, is thisquestion of plastics, right?
I mean, they're all over ourlives.
(10:48):
I'm sitting here at my deskright now and, like I just see
plastic, plastic, plastic,plastic, plastic, right.
I'm looking at my computer andthere's plastics like sitting
right in front of me on mycomputer screen.
And you know, there's some penssitting here and I see plastics
in them, and I have a littlecollection of rubber duckies
that I have.
It's probably really terrible,but you know, I think they're
(11:08):
kind of funny and those areplastic.
So I'm just looking like I justsee plastic around me, right,
and I think that's for everybody.
And so can you say a little bitabout some of the specifics of
that work and about plastics andthe role that they have in the
climate crisis and you know howthat's impacting the climate
(11:31):
crisis and I think we're allswimming right in a sea of
plastic these days.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean certainly any one of us through
observation.
As you have noticed, theincursion of plastics into
nearly every facet of our livesis exacerbating the climate
crisis and it's impactingenvironmental justice
(12:11):
communities and it's a publichealth crisis.
Micro and nanoplastics, whichwe cannot well, microplastics
are any plastic smaller than apencil tip, but nanoplastics are
plastic polymers we cannot evensee with the naked eye.
They have been found on thehighest mountaintop.
(12:33):
They've been found on the topof Mount Everest.
They have been found at thebottom of the Mariana Trench.
They are in snow, they are inrain, they are in the air we
breathe, in snow, they are inrain, they are in the air we
breathe.
So pollution over the last 50years, or 75 years, since
plastics really were, you know,produced initially in the 1950s,
(12:59):
um, has resulted in this crisisof, you know, basically every
molecule of plastics that's everbeen produced.
It exists somewhere on thisplanet and, unfortunately, what
really gets in the way of ourconversation is so many people
believe that recycling is theanswer to the plastic pollution
(13:24):
crisis, when in fact, only 9% ofthe material ever produced has
been effectively recycled.
I'm talking globally, and inthe United States, the plastics
recycling rate is less than 6%.
So the industry has done anincredible job of convincing us
that this is an us problem,we're not recycling correctly
(13:47):
enough.
They've really shifted thepublic narrative onto personal
and individual responsibility,when in fact, they are the ones
to blame for this crisis.
So, in terms of its climateimpacts, you know plastics are
responsible over the course oftheir life cycle, from
extraction, production, use,transportation, use and disposal
(14:11):
.
They are responsible for theequivalent the greenhouse gas
emissions equivalent of 116coal-fired power plants and are
projected to exceed the entirecoal sector by the year 2030.
So production is just reallyaccelerating and even as it
(14:32):
stands right now, if plasticswere a country, it would be the
fifth largest source ofemissions globally, behind only
the United States, russia, indiaand China.
So plastics are certainlyresponsible for accelerating the
global climate crisis.
They're made out of fossilfuels.
The main feedstocks of plasticsare oil, coal and gas, and we
(14:58):
tend to focus on other sectorsof emissions when we're talking
about the climate crisis.
But aviation being an example,you know people are always
talking about your, you know, inconsidering your own individual
carbon footprint footprint notto fly right, but plastics are
responsible for four times moreemissions than the entire global
(15:21):
aviation industry combined.
So plastics have a huge climateimpact.
But they also have a huge impacton environmental justice
communities.
The places where petrochemicalfacilities are located and
plastic production plants orethane crackers and garbage
(15:46):
incinerators, they're notlocated in well-off communities.
They're located in majoritylow-income and black and brown
communities.
So that's a huge environmentaljustice issue because these
facilities are polluting people.
And take the area that's 85miles long along the Mississippi
(16:12):
River in Louisiana which iscalled Cancer Alley, because
rates of pollution-relatedillnesses and cancer are
disproportionately higher therethan in the general population.
So this is an environmentaljustice issue.
It's also a public health issuebecause we have microplastics in
our brains, in our hearts, inour blood.
(16:39):
It has even crossed over theplacenta, it is in human breast
milk and now our babies arebeing born pre-polluted with
microplastics.
And so, you know, I think thatthat in particular is really a
new avenue to pursue fortheological reflection.
Like what does it mean thatwhat we toss out with such
(17:03):
carelessness from single youknow, 44% of all plastics are
single use plastics what we socarelessly, you know, use for a
matter of minutes, ends up.
It comes back to us in the formof microplastics.
You know.
It reminds me of the quote fromChief Seattle.
Like what we do to our planet,we do to ourselves, and I think
(17:25):
this illustrates that sotangibly.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, and this idea that we are to be stewards of
the created order and stewardsof each other and stewards of
our, you know, other siblings increation, when we are polluting
or participating in pollutionor we have these big things that
are very hard to wrap our mindsaround and even affect you know
(17:51):
, that's a theological issuebecause it's creating harm.
It's creating harm just in likeindividual people with illness
and sickness, and then it'screating community harm and
injustice in that harm.
When you think about you knowwhere these factories are
(18:11):
located, regulations, or youknow we, you know we basically
put our trash and our plasticsomewhere else and make, you
know, our use, someone else'sharm.
And we have to ask questions ofourselves, I think, as people
(18:33):
of faith, like who are we, whatare we doing, who are we being?
And also the question also oflike grace, of it's not up to us
necessarily as individuals, butwhat are we part of as larger
groups.
And so you know, these feellike really big theological
questions to be considering forsure.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, and definitely.
I mean, this issue has suchdepth and breadth and it can be
so overwhelming and activate allthose climate anxieties and
ecological grief that we have,and it's easy to feel helpless
and it's easy to feel despairingwhen you really come to terms
(19:16):
with the reality of the plasticpollution crisis.
But I think what you justhighlighted about grace, like
how to approach this from aperspective of not blaming
ourselves and not blaming oneanother, because while we all
participate in this system, weare entrenched in it not by
(19:39):
choice, and it has been foistedupon us by the petrochemical,
fossil fuel and plasticsindustries, and there is broad
bipartisan public support forbanning plastics globally,
(20:07):
public support for notpermitting new petrochemical
facilities and continuing tobuild out the infrastructure
that will create more plasticsthat we don't need.
But the industry is incrediblypowerful.
They have resources and accessthat we don't have as the people
, and so we cannot lose sight ofthat when we're, you know,
(20:29):
judging one another for our ownindividual actions and our use
of plastics.
A lot of people don't haveaccess to alternatives.
There's not a lot on the market.
You and I are both veryfortunate to have the Albany
Honest Way Food Co-op as aresource where you can bring
refillables and you don't haveto use plastic packaging if you
(20:54):
shop there.
You know that's a pretty rareresource.
(21:19):
One of the things that we youknow our focus at Beyond
Plastics is really on upstreamsolutions to stop on packaging
and the state establishes areduction target.
So we have a bill in New Yorkright now that reduces.
It's called the Packaging,reduction and Recycling
Infrastructure Act and it willreduce plastic packaging by 30%
(21:41):
over 12 years and require thatthe remainder of packaging
actually be refillable orrecyclable at a rate of 70%, and
that's to give the consumer theoptions that we don't have.
And we have to regulate theplastics industry through
(22:04):
legislative means.
There's really there's no othercorporate pressure.
Campaigns haven't worked.
I mean, we have a chart that weuse about corporate voluntary
pledges to reduce reliance onvirgin plastics and every single
corporate commitment.
They're all falling way, waybehind commitment.
(22:30):
They're all falling way, waybehind.
You know, I think policy reallyis the answer to the crisis,
but there are things that we cando just to feel more aligned in
our individual households andthe communities that we
participate in to reduce our useof plastics.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and I'm also reminded, as we're talking, that
the General Assembly of thePresbyterian Church last summer
passed an overture relatedspecifically to plastics.
That was in the EnvironmentalCommittee and Nicole
Aronson-Champaign, who's amember of Southern New England
Presbyterian, was one of ourcommissioners to the General
Assembly and got assignedthrough the computer sorting hat
(23:07):
of the General Assembly wherepeople get assigned.
She got assigned to theEnvironmental Committee and came
back really interested in thisoverture.
And you know, this overturecalls upon for us to commit
ourselves as a church, as apeople of faith and as a social
organization embodying Christianvalues, to and there's five
(23:29):
things here.
One, encourage all our settingsto commit to changing from a
disposable culture to a reusable, sustainable one.
Encourage education in ourcongregations and our
communities.
So hopefully this conversationis part of that response to this
overture.
Encourage all settings of thechurch to determine the best
(23:51):
pathway for strategies andactions to mitigate plastic
pollution and give some examplesand then reduce the use what
you were just talking about ofsingle-use plastics and
packaging.
We can talk about some of thosestrategies for churches in a
minute and commend all settingsof the church to join in
possible opportunities forparticipation in addressing
(24:12):
plastic pollution.
And then gives a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas, from small
scale to medium scale to evenbig scale and inviting.
And it's mandated now that ourmission responsibility, through
investment committee of thenational church, that does do
that corporate shareholderengagement to even big scale and
inviting.
And it's mandated now that ourmission responsibility, through
investment committee of thenational church, that does do
that corporate shareholderengagement, starts working on
this issue of plastics as partof their portfolio of work.
(24:35):
And so you know that bigpicture and and even says and I
really appreciate this that weshould acknowledge that there
needs to be some accommodationsin our expectations for some
impacted groups, such as thosewho are disabled and unhoused.
And so you know, considering,you know some of those pieces.
So I'm glad we're having thisconversation because I think
(24:57):
oftentimes something happens atthe General Assembly and it's
like this big thing out thereand there's some really specific
ways we can get actualizedaround those things.
And then it's also reallyexciting when we have actual
Presbyterian ministers like youwho are working in this area and
thinking about, you know,something that is this specific
but is really something we needto be talking about, and the
(25:17):
General Assembly is now, youknow, sort of put on everybody's
plate as one of the actions.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, and so one of the first things I because I
work on faith relationships atBeyond Plastics one of the first
things I did was create aresource for houses of worship
of any faith tradition, and youcan find that if you just Google
faith beyond plastics, it'll bethe first thing that comes up.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And we'll add that to the show notes for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
We've got a lot of resources in there.
Awesome.
So, basically, you know, theresource outlines sort of three
steps.
One is about you know, which Ioutlined, as I called it, speak
(26:08):
the truth.
One is just about educatingyour congregation on the nature
of the plastic pollution crisis,and there's a number of
resources hyperlinked in there.
We have a ton of fact sheets atBeyond Plastics to help
resource you in that way.
So, you know, for adulteducation, for liturgy and for
preaching, those are greatresources.
Education for liturgy and forpreaching, those are great
(26:30):
resources.
And then the second is aboutwalking the talk.
Again, we do have control overthe items that we bring into our
houses of worship if we'reintentional about it.
So there are some suggestionsin there for you know general
operations and you know officeand building management, also
for worship and the materialsthat we bring into worship
(26:53):
special occasions, meal service,programs.
So there's a bunch of resourcesrelated to that.
And then the last one is aboutwalking the halls.
Okay, so learning how to becomeactivists on the issue, because
, again, the actions that we cantake as individuals will only
(27:15):
have so much impact.
Speaking to legislators, it'sgoing to require lobbying
activities which maybe somepeople of faith may not feel
comfortable with, but it'swhat's necessary to.
It's the means to the real endsthat we want, which is to stop
(27:39):
the production and theproliferation of plastics.
There's just no other way, andso we have template campaigns
available.
We have.
We actually have an upcomingtraining at Beyond Plastics.
It's totally free grassrootsactivism training and that's
coming up on May 3rd.
(28:01):
Flexible meetings for schedulesand we can.
If you have meeting notes, wecan link to that as well, and we
also do have a course throughBennington College that you can
audit for a small fee, justabout the plastic pollution
crisis in general.
But it's, you know, that'swhere the rubber meets.
(28:21):
The road is in this policy work, and people of faith have such
a powerful voice in thesecoalitions of activists working
on this issue.
Legislators listen to bothclergy and and people who
identify with faith traditions,and so we can't underestimate
(28:42):
the power of our voice and ourvalues in in this, this sector.
So I really, really encouragepeople of faith to get out there
, beyond the walls of theirchurch, and share the message
with the people who are in powerand make decisions.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, for sure, and I think that idea of reducing
plastic use and considering I'mthinking as you're talking, I'm
thinking about things like youknow, church, school and all the
kind of you know things we buyto do with kids.
You know these sort of tactileactivities and how you can do.
You can do things differently.
I remember when I was growing up, my mom used to make our
(29:22):
Play-Doh.
I it's it's some recipeinvolving salt and flour and
coloring, something like that,and so I think that ways like
you could, you know, do that andyou could still do play-doh
right for your pre-K kids inchurch, but you don't have to
buy like play-doh like at youknow Target or something like
(29:46):
that, right, you can like.
There's other ways of doing thesame thing and it's it's kind
of the it's more fun.
I remember it being fun when mymom used to like make Play-Doh
and my friends and I could, likeyou know, make our own colors
and stuff Like we liked thatbetter, and so I think sometimes
going back and getting oldschool can be really a fun thing
to do and you know, we survivedwithout plastics for a long
(30:10):
time and we had wonderful thingslike milk and Play-Doh, and
also, you know, we, somehow wemanaged.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think old going old school isis the way for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm realized like I'm getting
older and I'm just old enough toremember like milk delivery and
we got milk in the glassbottles.
And I mean we lived in like thesuburbs of Philadelphia,
literally a mile outside of thecity line, like I didn't grow up
in some like far away place,like I grew up like right in a
big city, but we still got likemilk delivered and things like
that and that's those are, andthere's all sorts of ways you
(30:48):
can think about making smallchanges and bigger changes and
then ramping them up as you go.
And as a person of faith, then,right, it gets you more
connected to your community andyou get to know, if you do opt
for something like milk deliverytoday, that means you're going
to get to know that local farmand you're going to be
interested in them and that'sgoing to be a community
(31:11):
connection and that's a way ofpotentially sharing your faith
or knowing someone else or they,knowing who you are and what
your commitments are.
You just never know where God'sgoing to use or take those
sorts of encounters, and so Ijust you know, I think I also
want to throw in a plug for thatof as we do new things.
You know, god's going to showup and unexpected pieces are
(31:34):
going to start happening with it.
That's how God works, typicallyAgreed, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
So I had forgotten about thatuntil we started talking.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I was like, oh, I remember the Plato talking, I
was like, oh, I remember theplay-doh.
Yeah, I mean, and I agree, asas a parent of younger children,
I used it's like it happened soquick where I used to say of
little kids and now, now I sayyounger children, they're so
fast.
But you know, we go to birthdayparties and there's little bags
full of tchotchkes and they'reall just crap.
(32:05):
You know things that bakewithin a day and then they end
up in the garbage because whatelse, what else can I do with
them?
You know, and that's likereally heartbreaking.
And we do bring a lot of thatstuff into our congregations and
there are some hints in hereabout things like that in the in
the toolkit that we created.
(32:25):
One thing is you know, likethat in the in the toolkit that
we created, um.
One thing is you know, reusethe easter eggs every year,
collect them from the childrenafter the hunt and just reuse
them.
I mean, in my home we use, likewooden eggs and that's not
necessarily like accessible um,because there are, they're
pretty expensive, honestly, butwe use very few, right,
(32:51):
collecting those Easter eggs and, for a Jewish congregation,
using wooden dreidels atHanukkah rather than little
plastic ones.
So many little things that onceyou get intentional about it
and you really drill down to theminutia of your operations,
you'll see so much plastics inthere.
But you know, one of the thingswe recommend in the toolkit is
(33:15):
first adopting a policy and thenauditing all the materials that
are coming in and thenevaluating.
You know what the alternativesare and there's some suggestions
in there as well.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right, right, yeah, no, this is really helpful, and
I also am remembering you did awas it a study guide with
Creation Care Ministries forLent?
It was something like that thatyou worked on with them.
Yeah, creation.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Justice Ministries has another resource called
Plastic Jesus you can download.
We can probably put that in themeeting notes too to download
that resource and that reallyand it's also hyperlinked within
the resource, the our resourcethat really can help inform
(34:01):
worship.
It's really meant to be more ofa theological tool for
reflection and then ours is moreabout like taking action.
So they really they work wellhand in hand with one another.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Okay, great Plastic Jesus, that would be good.
Sort of riffing off thoselittle plastic Jesuses that
people you know put places andtake around with them, right,
right exactly, it was a song tooright, isn't it?
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh yeah, there is a song, yes, yes.
So, um, yeah, I'm also workingon a resource for Lent, because
I'm currently you know, we'recurrently in Lent and for the
last few years I have fastedfrom plastics, um, with some
very small exceptions for, likecaps on things and whatnot, like
stickers on fruit, and you know, very minor exceptions and you
can, you can approach it withwhatever caveats you want, but,
(34:58):
you know, I think Lent is reallyit's meant to be a time when we
really challenge ourselves andfasting from plastics is a huge
challenge and it's such apowerful exercise in
consciousness raising about howmuch we really do rely upon
plastic.
So this year I'm sort of takingnotes as I go about my fast and
(35:21):
trying to put together somehelpful hints.
So next year, in, you know,january or February, I can
release a resource because thisis really a growing movement of
Christians who are taking thison.
It's really powerful and Irecommend that anybody, any
version of it is really it'shelpful in just opening your
(35:45):
eyes.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, I always tell people Lent is the time to do
these things right.
I, years ago, was just trying todecide whether or not I would
go vegetarian, really forfaith-based reasons.
I was really concerned aboutthe abuse of animals and what
that meant for us as people offaith and also climate impacts,
and so I was beginning to sortof ease into it by eliminating,
(36:08):
you know, just pork and thenbeef, and beginning to ease into
it.
But I preached a sermon whatwas it?
13 or so years ago, to thecongregation I was serving at
the time on Ash Wednesday, andbasically said to everyone like
this is going to be my Lentenpractice, I'm going to
completely go vegetarian duringthis Lent.
One like this is going to be myLenten practice.
I'm going to completely govegetarian during this Lent.
(36:29):
And you know what's the whybehind it, what's the Lenten
practice and inviting peopleinto a conversation right about
that.
And I've pretty much beenvegetarian ever since.
So it's you know Lent canreally it can be a time to help
us really be intentional and tothink about our faith and how it
(36:49):
is lived out in our personaldiscipleship.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, and I would say Lent, you know, has had my fast
from plastics really had a verysimilar impact in terms of I've
just adopted, because when youget into certain habits you know
it facilitates adopting themyear round, and so a lot of it
has just stuck so that everyyear when I re approach, when I
approach Lent, I can, I canactually challenge myself even
(37:15):
more, because some of the thingsthat I started in the previous
year like, for example, like inthe very first year I did it, I
bought a ton of glass like spraybottles for all my cleaning
products and then I startedgetting those little
concentrates from I buy themfrom Grove, but there's other
companies that make them butjust little cleaning product
(37:37):
concentrates and now I just usethem all the time so I don't buy
any plastic cleaning products.
So you know, now, when I, whenI approach Lent, there are new
things that I can consider.
So I that's it's totallykickstart a lot of just my
(37:57):
lifestyle habits.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah, for sure, and it's I think
these are just, you know, beingintentional.
The real question is right,right, Intentionality about our
faith journey, both as peopleand as communities, and this is
one really key way to considerintentionality and consider
(38:19):
spiritual growth by you knowfolks that talk about the
climate crisis that it's not atechnical crisis or a scientific
crisis or even a pollutioncrisis, that the climate crisis
is really a spiritual crisisbecause it's a crisis of
relationship and how we relateto the creation and how we
(38:40):
relate to the earth, and it's aspiritual crisis that we should
all consider from thatperspective we should all
consider from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I really resonate with that idea, me too, and the
fact that you know I don'treally have any other
theological lens forunderstanding plastics aside
from sin.
Honestly, and again, like youknow, we're Presbyterian, so
we're not shy of talking aboutsin, especially during Lent.
But that's why Lent providessuch an appropriate framework, I
(39:12):
think, for delving into what'smy participation in this system
that is sinful in that it'shaving these extremely harmful
impacts on all of creation, andyet every day I'm participating
in it.
And so I just think, you know,reflection upon that, you know,
(39:34):
not in a way that it's self,because we don't want to live at
the expense of our siblings increation, and so, just like the
(39:56):
opportunity to get in touch withcoming home to yourself, you
know.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Well, I'm so glad we've had youon the, on the podcast,
catherine, and to talk aboutthese things, and I can't wait
to see the Lenten resource.
And you know it's been.
I've been so lucky to be withyou in ministry for the last
gosh.
How long has it been?
It's been longer than a decade,which is kind of amazing.
(40:24):
But but the evolution is alwaysso interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And I give you Shannon every Easter, because
Shannon baptized my daughterHarvest yeah.
I got to baptize her On EasterSunday 2015 or 2016.
2016.
Yeah, yeah, and so you knowthose Facebook memories pop up
every year of her in her littleplate dress and you're carrying
(40:51):
her around the sanctuary, and soit's a really special memory
and it's such a cool thing to bebonded with you over.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yes, well, and you helped me get my first chicken,
so that's also very special, andI know the Presbytery is
exhausted by hearing about thechickens, but you know,
catherine.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Once you have them, you can't stop.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I know it's addictive and it's good that there's a
limit where I live of just six,because I could see myself
getting into serious troublehere.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So there's imposed limits.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
There's imposed limits, which is good for
someone like me who could reallykind of, you know, go off into
you know another zone somewhere.
So so one of the questions I'vebeen asking people lately it's
actually a question I'mborrowing from a from a climate
podcast I listened to calledOutrage and Optimism, and which
is really great.
And their closing question isto ask people like what's one
(41:45):
thing you're outraged about andwhat's something then this work
that's making you optimistic andwhy?
And so I feel like thePresbyterian spin on that
question is like where do yousee total depravity and where do
you see the Holy Spirit showingup?
And like what's the challenge,what's the hope?
You know what's making you justgo completely out of your mind
(42:05):
these days in your ministry andin this work, and what?
Where do you see the movementof the spirit?
You know, any way, you want toanswer that big question.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Well, I mean I could certainly answer as it relates
to plastics, or I could.
I mean, what is there not to beoutraged over these days?
I have to say I will start withwhat's giving me hope is
Wisconsin.
I was so encouraged to see that, you know, bribing people to
(42:34):
vote doesn't work.
I teach my children thatcheaters never prosper and as we
heard, you know, that adagewhen we were growing up and it's
nice to see that it hasn't goneout of style yet, at least in
America's dairy land where wevacation in the summer.
(42:54):
So we I'm very proud of, youknow, democracy having a win.
So you know that's notnecessarily the Holy Spirit at
work, but yet it is becausethat's justice, you know, the
(43:16):
will of the people being heard.
So that is to me a glimmer ofhope.
That just happened justyesterday.
And you know outrage I mean Itry honestly, I really am trying
hard not to be outraged.
I I'm not surprised.
I can say that I'm neversurprised at what's happening in
this country Right, right now.
(43:37):
I think it is sort of the thenatural end to things that have
long been in place, but I willsay like the gutting of our, you
know, regulatory agencies likethe EPA, and having a new
(43:58):
mission, completely contrary toits mandate, is particularly
enraging.
And so, you know, also, I justI ordered the couple books from
Rebecca Salmet about communitiesthat have resisted, and I think
we need to, I think we need totake some, we need to be
(44:20):
listening and attune our ears topeople who've been long
fighting pollution in theircommunities and fighting for
clean air and clean water,fighting pipelines, and, you
know, hearing their stories andtheir victories, that seemed
impossible against all odds, andso to me, you know it's, it's
(44:41):
outrage, but it's also I justlook at it as an opportunity to
dig further into my calling,which is to grow closer to those
voices and to listen and drawnearer to those communities.
So that's my takeaway.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, I've talked to so many pastors in the last
couple months and all of themare saying the same thing to me,
which is that this moment thatwe're living in, which is full
of so many challenges, this isthe opportunity to really go
back and focus on the gospel andto really focus on Jesus and
what he's asking of us.
And you know what isresurrection, what is new life,
(45:19):
what is wholeness and I loveJesus talking about I came to
bring new life to all ofcreation.
You know, talking about I cameto bring new life to all of
creation.
You know that Jesus's ministrywas that big and that wide and
that open for everybody andeverything.
And so I just I hear a lot ofpeople saying we've got to go
(45:40):
back to basics, we've got to goback to the gospel, we've got to
go back to the Bible and we'vegot to really dig into what's
really there and dig into ourfaith.
And you know, let a thousandflowers bloom, right, I mean, I
think it will.
Just, I really am hoping andpraying for that renewal of the
(46:01):
church and the renewal of eachof us, because I think that that
is one of the ways, you know,we get to healing, and not just
for ourselves, but for all ofthose that we're in community
with.
So so I hear that in you and inyour work too, catherine, so
I'm grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I'm grateful for you.
Thank you for everything you'redoing, Shona.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
You're welcome.
Well, thanks for being on ourpodcast and being part of
connecting the conversations,and we will link all of these
resources we talked about in thepodcast notes.
So you just click on that notessection in your podcast area
and whatever however, you getyour podcast.
I know our podcast goes out inall sorts of different ways and
(46:43):
people listen to it and we'regrateful for you, catherine, for
your ministry and all the wayswe can dig into being
ambassadors and disciples forJesus and people who love God
and love the created order.
So thanks again and may thisLent continue to be fruitful for
you.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
And to you as well.
Peace be with you, thank you.
Bye, shannon, bye.
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo andmy pronouns are she and her,
and I serve as the generalpresbyter of the Presbytery of
Southern New England and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,USA.
For today's episode, we'regoing to be talking about
creation care and some resourcesfor your ministry related to
that, and I'm really excited towelcome my friend and colleague
here in the northeastern part ofthe Presbyterian Church in the
United States, the ReverendCatherine Belke, who serves as
(00:52):
the Development Manager forBeyond Plastics, and I know she
also does liaison work withfaith communities.
So, Catherine, we're so glad tohave you and welcome to the
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me, Shannon.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, so let's start with some introductions.
I love to start off with justgiving whoever's on the podcast
an opportunity to introducethemselves and tell us a little
bit about who you are, inwhatever way best makes sense
for you.
So go ahead and tell us who youare, catherine.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Sure.
So I am Reverend CatherineBilkey and I'm a Presbyterian
lifer, born and raised in StLouis, missouri, and grew up in
the Webster Groves PresbyterianChurch where I was baptized and
confirmed and wanted to continuestudying theology when I went
off to college at BaylorUniversity, which is a Baptist
university.
But I found an amazingPresbyterian church there where
(01:58):
I began exploring a call to theministry as I was studying
religion in college and was bothattending that Presbyterian
church but also an incredibleministry called Church Under the
Bridge with the Reverend JimmyDorrell who also runs a mission
(02:19):
there in Waco, texas, calledMission Waco, and I participated
in a lot of projects that wereoriented towards those who were
in vulnerable communities peopleaffected by poverty, drug
addiction, not having access tonutritional food, homelessness,
(02:47):
all sorts of vexing socialissues and sort of.
Having been a part of both ofthose communities at the same
time really helped shape my callto the ministry and having a
focus on social justice and mystudies, which I pursued at
(03:08):
Princeton Theological Seminaryand then, after graduating,
worked for about a decade inHudson, new York, as the pastor
of the First Presbyterian Churchof Hudson and really brought
that social justice focus to myministry, which was an urban
(03:28):
ministry, while in a smallcommunity, and so it really was
exactly where God intended itfor me to be at the time.
But I found in my work with thatchurch that we were all really
compelled by this stunninglandscape of the Hudson Valley,
that that was our reason for,you know, living in this context
(03:51):
and wanting, you know, moreconnection, more sense of
connection with creation, withnature, and so we pursued a
number of projects in which wecould really dig our hands into
the dirt quite literallyincluding, you know, building a
community garden that wasutilized by a lot of partners in
(04:12):
the community to have access tofresh produce into several
projects that where we werefishing in the Hudson River and
we were calling them parablefield trips, where we went off
(04:33):
and we went to a winery andstomped grapes to reflect on
these images that Jesus hasgiven us from creation.
And then that evolved into aproject called Earth Church,
which was affiliated with 1001New Worshiping Communities, and
it was just really aboutrecontextualizing worship on a
(04:54):
biodynamic farm that was in thiscommunity and understanding our
role as co-creators with God,and that sort of led me on this
journey about caring forcreation, but more deeply, in
terms of climate change andpolicy work, and so eventually,
(05:16):
when I decided it was time forme to transition out of the
congregation, I started workingwith communities that were
navigating New York State'sclimate law and our Climate
Smart Communities Initiative,which is essentially like a a la
carte menu of actions thatcommunities can take to both
(05:37):
mitigate and adapt to climatechange, and so I felt very
compelled at the time that, inorder to make a real impact, I
had to get out of the pulpit andstop talking about our
ecological crises and actuallyfocus on actions that were
impactful, and so, eventually,that work led me to Beyond
(05:57):
Plastics.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
That's great, and it's been fun to be alongside
you over the years watching allof these things unfold in
ministry.
And we could do a whole otherpodcast right on biodynamic
farms and what they have toteach us as faith communities,
which I think is a whole otherconversation for a whole other
day, but it's been really funlearning on these biodynamic
(06:21):
farms that are near to where youand I, where we live, so it's
really really fun.
So I wanted to you know, thisis a this sort of podcast series
we're starting in the spring of2025 for the Presbytery we're
trying to do some ministryresources, and so I'm really
excited to have you on to talkabout some ministry resources
(06:41):
related to creation care, and sowhy don't we start with just
talking about you know, how yousee creation care, the
theological pieces of it, what'sessential for us as people of
faith?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Well, I think the number one thing for me is that
Psalm that says the earth is theLord's and the fullness thereof
, and we are not the owners ofthis place that we call home.
We are not the arbiters of howit should be treated.
We are part of God's creation,not separate from it.
(07:20):
God, in fact, created us, theAdam, from the Adamah, from the
soil of the earth, and we areinherently in relationship with
everything in our ecosystem, andGod created all of those things
in a way such that there is anintended harmony, and we have
(07:42):
disrupted that harmony.
It's, you know, no secret.
Science has shown us thathumans are causing climate
change, we are causingecological destruction, we are
bringing death to the planetthat God entrusted to our care,
and so, for me, it's aboutrecovering that relationship of
(08:09):
being a part of creation andbeing called by God to care for
it and to be a co-creator ratherthan a destroyer.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that part in Genesisthat I think we often overlook,
at the beginning in the creationnarratives, where, you know,
god invited Adam to give namesto the animals, right, god
didn't.
You know we were part of thatnaming process and I think if
you name something, you have adeeper relationship to it.
(08:41):
You know we name our children,we name our pets deeper
relationship to it.
You know we name our children,we name our pets.
You know things like this, andthese are close familial love
relationships and so if we, youknow, in an ancestral sort of
way, we're part of the naming ofthese creatures, what's our
relationship right to them?
And we think about the climatecrisis and the mass extinction
(09:05):
events that are happening withour animal siblings and you know
, flora and fauna siblings,ecosystem siblings what does
that say to us as people offaith?
You know, what should we beabout?
These are super deep questionsfor me and, I think, really
primal questions as people offaith.
(09:26):
So, um, I appreciate youstarting there.
Uh, both in in Genesis, butalso in the Psalms, um, you know
, which are just such beautifulpieces of poetry in the
scripture.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
And I appreciate you, you framing it as a start,
because none of us know how tountangle ourselves from the, you
know, from the systems that weare a part of, from capitalism
and from systems that inherentlyhurt and harm our fellow
(09:59):
siblings in creation, increation.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So you know, I certainly only have questions
rather than answers, but it'syou know, led me to this point
in my journey, yeah, yeah, well,one of the things I know you
work on specifically right nowis you work with an organization
called Beyond Plastics, andthere's so many, so many pieces
to the harm that's happening toGod's gorgeous and beautiful
(10:26):
creation and that we are calledupon, as people of faith, to be
repairing and getting in the wayof, and one of those pieces
that's just so excuse me endemicand also just ubiquitous, right
, like it's everywhere, is thisquestion of plastics, right?
I mean, they're all over ourlives.
(10:48):
I'm sitting here at my deskright now and, like I just see
plastic, plastic, plastic,plastic, plastic, right.
I'm looking at my computer andthere's plastics like sitting
right in front of me on mycomputer screen.
And you know, there's some penssitting here and I see plastics
in them, and I have a littlecollection of rubber duckies
that I have.
It's probably really terrible,but you know, I think they're
(11:08):
kind of funny and those areplastic.
So I'm just looking like I justsee plastic around me, right,
and I think that's for everybody.
And so can you say a little bitabout some of the specifics of
that work and about plastics andthe role that they have in the
climate crisis and you know howthat's impacting the climate
(11:31):
crisis and I think we're allswimming right in a sea of
plastic these days.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean certainly any one of us through
observation.
As you have noticed, theincursion of plastics into
nearly every facet of our livesis exacerbating the climate
crisis and it's impactingenvironmental justice
(12:11):
communities and it's a publichealth crisis.
Micro and nanoplastics, whichwe cannot well, microplastics
are any plastic smaller than apencil tip, but nanoplastics are
plastic polymers we cannot evensee with the naked eye.
They have been found on thehighest mountaintop.
(12:33):
They've been found on the topof Mount Everest.
They have been found at thebottom of the Mariana Trench.
They are in snow, they are inrain, they are in the air we
breathe, in snow, they are inrain, they are in the air we
breathe.
So pollution over the last 50years, or 75 years, since
plastics really were, you know,produced initially in the 1950s,
(12:59):
um, has resulted in this crisisof, you know, basically every
molecule of plastics that's everbeen produced.
It exists somewhere on thisplanet and, unfortunately, what
really gets in the way of ourconversation is so many people
believe that recycling is theanswer to the plastic pollution
(13:24):
crisis, when in fact, only 9% ofthe material ever produced has
been effectively recycled.
I'm talking globally, and inthe United States, the plastics
recycling rate is less than 6%.
So the industry has done anincredible job of convincing us
that this is an us problem,we're not recycling correctly
(13:47):
enough.
They've really shifted thepublic narrative onto personal
and individual responsibility,when in fact, they are the ones
to blame for this crisis.
So, in terms of its climateimpacts, you know plastics are
responsible over the course oftheir life cycle, from
extraction, production, use,transportation, use and disposal
(14:11):
.
They are responsible for theequivalent the greenhouse gas
emissions equivalent of 116coal-fired power plants and are
projected to exceed the entirecoal sector by the year 2030.
So production is just reallyaccelerating and even as it
(14:32):
stands right now, if plasticswere a country, it would be the
fifth largest source ofemissions globally, behind only
the United States, russia, indiaand China.
So plastics are certainlyresponsible for accelerating the
global climate crisis.
They're made out of fossilfuels.
The main feedstocks of plasticsare oil, coal and gas, and we
(14:58):
tend to focus on other sectorsof emissions when we're talking
about the climate crisis.
But aviation being an example,you know people are always
talking about your, you know, inconsidering your own individual
carbon footprint footprint notto fly right, but plastics are
responsible for four times moreemissions than the entire global
(15:21):
aviation industry combined.
So plastics have a huge climateimpact.
But they also have a huge impacton environmental justice
communities.
The places where petrochemicalfacilities are located and
plastic production plants orethane crackers and garbage
(15:46):
incinerators, they're notlocated in well-off communities.
They're located in majoritylow-income and black and brown
communities.
So that's a huge environmentaljustice issue because these
facilities are polluting people.
And take the area that's 85miles long along the Mississippi
(16:12):
River in Louisiana which iscalled Cancer Alley, because
rates of pollution-relatedillnesses and cancer are
disproportionately higher therethan in the general population.
So this is an environmentaljustice issue.
It's also a public health issuebecause we have microplastics in
our brains, in our hearts, inour blood.
(16:39):
It has even crossed over theplacenta, it is in human breast
milk and now our babies arebeing born pre-polluted with
microplastics.
And so, you know, I think thatthat in particular is really a
new avenue to pursue fortheological reflection.
Like what does it mean thatwhat we toss out with such
(17:03):
carelessness from single youknow, 44% of all plastics are
single use plastics what we socarelessly, you know, use for a
matter of minutes, ends up.
It comes back to us in the formof microplastics.
You know.
It reminds me of the quote fromChief Seattle.
Like what we do to our planet,we do to ourselves, and I think
(17:25):
this illustrates that sotangibly.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, and this idea that we are to be stewards of
the created order and stewardsof each other and stewards of
our, you know, other siblings increation, when we are polluting
or participating in pollutionor we have these big things that
are very hard to wrap our mindsaround and even affect you know
(17:51):
, that's a theological issuebecause it's creating harm.
It's creating harm just in likeindividual people with illness
and sickness, and then it'screating community harm and
injustice in that harm.
When you think about you knowwhere these factories are
(18:11):
located, regulations, or youknow we, you know we basically
put our trash and our plasticsomewhere else and make, you
know, our use, someone else'sharm.
And we have to ask questions ofourselves, I think, as people
(18:33):
of faith, like who are we, whatare we doing, who are we being?
And also the question also oflike grace, of it's not up to us
necessarily as individuals, butwhat are we part of as larger
groups.
And so you know, these feellike really big theological
questions to be considering forsure.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, and definitely.
I mean, this issue has suchdepth and breadth and it can be
so overwhelming and activate allthose climate anxieties and
ecological grief that we have,and it's easy to feel helpless
and it's easy to feel despairingwhen you really come to terms
(19:16):
with the reality of the plasticpollution crisis.
But I think what you justhighlighted about grace, like
how to approach this from aperspective of not blaming
ourselves and not blaming oneanother, because while we all
participate in this system, weare entrenched in it not by
(19:39):
choice, and it has been foistedupon us by the petrochemical,
fossil fuel and plasticsindustries, and there is broad
bipartisan public support forbanning plastics globally,
(20:07):
public support for notpermitting new petrochemical
facilities and continuing tobuild out the infrastructure
that will create more plasticsthat we don't need.
But the industry is incrediblypowerful.
They have resources and accessthat we don't have as the people
, and so we cannot lose sight ofthat when we're, you know,
(20:29):
judging one another for our ownindividual actions and our use
of plastics.
A lot of people don't haveaccess to alternatives.
There's not a lot on the market.
You and I are both veryfortunate to have the Albany
Honest Way Food Co-op as aresource where you can bring
refillables and you don't haveto use plastic packaging if you
(20:54):
shop there.
You know that's a pretty rareresource.
(21:19):
One of the things that we youknow our focus at Beyond
Plastics is really on upstreamsolutions to stop on packaging
and the state establishes areduction target.
So we have a bill in New Yorkright now that reduces.
It's called the Packaging,reduction and Recycling
Infrastructure Act and it willreduce plastic packaging by 30%
(21:41):
over 12 years and require thatthe remainder of packaging
actually be refillable orrecyclable at a rate of 70%, and
that's to give the consumer theoptions that we don't have.
And we have to regulate theplastics industry through
(22:04):
legislative means.
There's really there's no othercorporate pressure.
Campaigns haven't worked.
I mean, we have a chart that weuse about corporate voluntary
pledges to reduce reliance onvirgin plastics and every single
corporate commitment.
They're all falling way, waybehind commitment.
(22:30):
They're all falling way, waybehind.
You know, I think policy reallyis the answer to the crisis,
but there are things that we cando just to feel more aligned in
our individual households andthe communities that we
participate in to reduce our useof plastics.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and I'm also reminded, as we're talking, that
the General Assembly of thePresbyterian Church last summer
passed an overture relatedspecifically to plastics.
That was in the EnvironmentalCommittee and Nicole
Aronson-Champaign, who's amember of Southern New England
Presbyterian, was one of ourcommissioners to the General
Assembly and got assignedthrough the computer sorting hat
(23:07):
of the General Assembly wherepeople get assigned.
She got assigned to theEnvironmental Committee and came
back really interested in thisoverture.
And you know, this overturecalls upon for us to commit
ourselves as a church, as apeople of faith and as a social
organization embodying Christianvalues, to and there's five
(23:29):
things here.
One, encourage all our settingsto commit to changing from a
disposable culture to a reusable, sustainable one.
Encourage education in ourcongregations and our
communities.
So hopefully this conversationis part of that response to this
overture.
Encourage all settings of thechurch to determine the best
(23:51):
pathway for strategies andactions to mitigate plastic
pollution and give some examplesand then reduce the use what
you were just talking about ofsingle-use plastics and
packaging.
We can talk about some of thosestrategies for churches in a
minute and commend all settingsof the church to join in
possible opportunities forparticipation in addressing
(24:12):
plastic pollution.
And then gives a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas, from small
scale to medium scale to evenbig scale and inviting.
And it's mandated now that ourmission responsibility, through
investment committee of thenational church, that does do
that corporate shareholderengagement to even big scale and
inviting.
And it's mandated now that ourmission responsibility, through
investment committee of thenational church, that does do
that corporate shareholderengagement, starts working on
this issue of plastics as partof their portfolio of work.
(24:35):
And so you know that bigpicture and and even says and I
really appreciate this that weshould acknowledge that there
needs to be some accommodationsin our expectations for some
impacted groups, such as thosewho are disabled and unhoused.
And so you know, considering,you know some of those pieces.
So I'm glad we're having thisconversation because I think
(24:57):
oftentimes something happens atthe General Assembly and it's
like this big thing out thereand there's some really specific
ways we can get actualizedaround those things.
And then it's also reallyexciting when we have actual
Presbyterian ministers like youwho are working in this area and
thinking about, you know,something that is this specific
but is really something we needto be talking about, and the
(25:17):
General Assembly is now, youknow, sort of put on everybody's
plate as one of the actions.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, and so one of the first things I because I
work on faith relationships atBeyond Plastics one of the first
things I did was create aresource for houses of worship
of any faith tradition, and youcan find that if you just Google
faith beyond plastics, it'll bethe first thing that comes up.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And we'll add that to the show notes for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
We've got a lot of resources in there.
Awesome.
So, basically, you know, theresource outlines sort of three
steps.
One is about you know, which Ioutlined, as I called it, speak
(26:08):
the truth.
One is just about educatingyour congregation on the nature
of the plastic pollution crisis,and there's a number of
resources hyperlinked in there.
We have a ton of fact sheets atBeyond Plastics to help
resource you in that way.
So, you know, for adulteducation, for liturgy and for
preaching, those are greatresources.
Education for liturgy and forpreaching, those are great
(26:30):
resources.
And then the second is aboutwalking the talk.
Again, we do have control overthe items that we bring into our
houses of worship if we'reintentional about it.
So there are some suggestionsin there for you know general
operations and you know officeand building management, also
for worship and the materialsthat we bring into worship
(26:53):
special occasions, meal service,programs.
So there's a bunch of resourcesrelated to that.
And then the last one is aboutwalking the halls.
Okay, so learning how to becomeactivists on the issue, because
, again, the actions that we cantake as individuals will only
(27:15):
have so much impact.
Speaking to legislators, it'sgoing to require lobbying
activities which maybe somepeople of faith may not feel
comfortable with, but it'swhat's necessary to.
It's the means to the real endsthat we want, which is to stop
(27:39):
the production and theproliferation of plastics.
There's just no other way, andso we have template campaigns
available.
We have.
We actually have an upcomingtraining at Beyond Plastics.
It's totally free grassrootsactivism training and that's
coming up on May 3rd.
(28:01):
Flexible meetings for schedulesand we can.
If you have meeting notes, wecan link to that as well, and we
also do have a course throughBennington College that you can
audit for a small fee, justabout the plastic pollution
crisis in general.
But it's, you know, that'swhere the rubber meets.
(28:21):
The road is in this policy work, and people of faith have such
a powerful voice in thesecoalitions of activists working
on this issue.
Legislators listen to bothclergy and and people who
identify with faith traditions,and so we can't underestimate
(28:42):
the power of our voice and ourvalues in in this, this sector.
So I really, really encouragepeople of faith to get out there
, beyond the walls of theirchurch, and share the message
with the people who are in powerand make decisions.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, for sure, and I think that idea of reducing
plastic use and considering I'mthinking as you're talking, I'm
thinking about things like youknow, church, school and all the
kind of you know things we buyto do with kids.
You know these sort of tactileactivities and how you can do.
You can do things differently.
I remember when I was growing up, my mom used to make our
(29:22):
Play-Doh.
I it's it's some recipeinvolving salt and flour and
coloring, something like that,and so I think that ways like
you could, you know, do that andyou could still do play-doh
right for your pre-K kids inchurch, but you don't have to
buy like play-doh like at youknow Target or something like
(29:46):
that, right, you can like.
There's other ways of doing thesame thing and it's it's kind
of the it's more fun.
I remember it being fun when mymom used to like make Play-Doh
and my friends and I could, likeyou know, make our own colors
and stuff Like we liked thatbetter, and so I think sometimes
going back and getting oldschool can be really a fun thing
to do and you know, we survivedwithout plastics for a long
(30:10):
time and we had wonderful thingslike milk and Play-Doh, and
also, you know, we, somehow wemanaged.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think old going old school isis the way for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm realized like I'm getting
older and I'm just old enough toremember like milk delivery and
we got milk in the glassbottles.
And I mean we lived in like thesuburbs of Philadelphia,
literally a mile outside of thecity line, like I didn't grow up
in some like far away place,like I grew up like right in a
big city, but we still got likemilk delivered and things like
that and that's those are, andthere's all sorts of ways you
(30:48):
can think about making smallchanges and bigger changes and
then ramping them up as you go.
And as a person of faith, then,right, it gets you more
connected to your community andyou get to know, if you do opt
for something like milk deliverytoday, that means you're going
to get to know that local farmand you're going to be
interested in them and that'sgoing to be a community
(31:11):
connection and that's a way ofpotentially sharing your faith
or knowing someone else or they,knowing who you are and what
your commitments are.
You just never know where God'sgoing to use or take those
sorts of encounters, and so Ijust you know, I think I also
want to throw in a plug for thatof as we do new things.
You know, god's going to showup and unexpected pieces are
(31:34):
going to start happening with it.
That's how God works, typicallyAgreed, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
So I had forgotten about thatuntil we started talking.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I was like, oh, I remember the Plato talking, I
was like, oh, I remember theplay-doh.
Yeah, I mean, and I agree, asas a parent of younger children,
I used it's like it happened soquick where I used to say of
little kids and now, now I sayyounger children, they're so
fast.
But you know, we go to birthdayparties and there's little bags
full of tchotchkes and they'reall just crap.
(32:05):
You know things that bakewithin a day and then they end
up in the garbage because whatelse, what else can I do with
them?
You know, and that's likereally heartbreaking.
And we do bring a lot of thatstuff into our congregations and
there are some hints in hereabout things like that in the in
the toolkit that we created.
(32:25):
One thing is you know, likethat in the in the toolkit that
we created, um.
One thing is you know, reusethe easter eggs every year,
collect them from the childrenafter the hunt and just reuse
them.
I mean, in my home we use, likewooden eggs and that's not
necessarily like accessible um,because there are, they're
pretty expensive, honestly, butwe use very few, right,
(32:51):
collecting those Easter eggs and, for a Jewish congregation,
using wooden dreidels atHanukkah rather than little
plastic ones.
So many little things that onceyou get intentional about it
and you really drill down to theminutia of your operations,
you'll see so much plastics inthere.
But you know, one of the thingswe recommend in the toolkit is
(33:15):
first adopting a policy and thenauditing all the materials that
are coming in and thenevaluating.
You know what the alternativesare and there's some suggestions
in there as well.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right, right, yeah, no, this is really helpful, and
I also am remembering you did awas it a study guide with
Creation Care Ministries forLent?
It was something like that thatyou worked on with them.
Yeah, creation.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Justice Ministries has another resource called
Plastic Jesus you can download.
We can probably put that in themeeting notes too to download
that resource and that reallyand it's also hyperlinked within
the resource, the our resourcethat really can help inform
(34:01):
worship.
It's really meant to be more ofa theological tool for
reflection and then ours is moreabout like taking action.
So they really they work wellhand in hand with one another.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Okay, great Plastic Jesus, that would be good.
Sort of riffing off thoselittle plastic Jesuses that
people you know put places andtake around with them, right,
right exactly, it was a song tooright, isn't it?
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh yeah, there is a song, yes, yes.
So, um, yeah, I'm also workingon a resource for Lent, because
I'm currently you know, we'recurrently in Lent and for the
last few years I have fastedfrom plastics, um, with some
very small exceptions for, likecaps on things and whatnot, like
stickers on fruit, and you know, very minor exceptions and you
can, you can approach it withwhatever caveats you want, but,
(34:58):
you know, I think Lent is reallyit's meant to be a time when we
really challenge ourselves andfasting from plastics is a huge
challenge and it's such apowerful exercise in
consciousness raising about howmuch we really do rely upon
plastic.
So this year I'm sort of takingnotes as I go about my fast and
(35:21):
trying to put together somehelpful hints.
So next year, in, you know,january or February, I can
release a resource because thisis really a growing movement of
Christians who are taking thison.
It's really powerful and Irecommend that anybody, any
version of it is really it'shelpful in just opening your
(35:45):
eyes.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, I always tell people Lent is the time to do
these things right.
I, years ago, was just trying todecide whether or not I would
go vegetarian, really forfaith-based reasons.
I was really concerned aboutthe abuse of animals and what
that meant for us as people offaith and also climate impacts,
and so I was beginning to sortof ease into it by eliminating,
(36:08):
you know, just pork and thenbeef, and beginning to ease into
it.
But I preached a sermon whatwas it?
13 or so years ago, to thecongregation I was serving at
the time on Ash Wednesday, andbasically said to everyone like
this is going to be my Lentenpractice, I'm going to
completely go vegetarian duringthis Lent.
One like this is going to be myLenten practice.
I'm going to completely govegetarian during this Lent.
(36:29):
And you know what's the whybehind it, what's the Lenten
practice and inviting peopleinto a conversation right about
that.
And I've pretty much beenvegetarian ever since.
So it's you know Lent canreally it can be a time to help
us really be intentional and tothink about our faith and how it
(36:49):
is lived out in our personaldiscipleship.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, and I would say Lent, you know, has had my fast
from plastics really had a verysimilar impact in terms of I've
just adopted, because when youget into certain habits you know
it facilitates adopting themyear round, and so a lot of it
has just stuck so that everyyear when I re approach, when I
approach Lent, I can, I canactually challenge myself even
(37:15):
more, because some of the thingsthat I started in the previous
year like, for example, like inthe very first year I did it, I
bought a ton of glass like spraybottles for all my cleaning
products and then I startedgetting those little
concentrates from I buy themfrom Grove, but there's other
companies that make them butjust little cleaning product
(37:37):
concentrates and now I just usethem all the time so I don't buy
any plastic cleaning products.
So you know, now, when I, whenI approach Lent, there are new
things that I can consider.
So I that's it's totallykickstart a lot of just my
(37:57):
lifestyle habits.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah, for sure, and it's I think
these are just, you know, beingintentional.
The real question is right,right, Intentionality about our
faith journey, both as peopleand as communities, and this is
one really key way to considerintentionality and consider
(38:19):
spiritual growth by you knowfolks that talk about the
climate crisis that it's not atechnical crisis or a scientific
crisis or even a pollutioncrisis, that the climate crisis
is really a spiritual crisisbecause it's a crisis of
relationship and how we relateto the creation and how we
(38:40):
relate to the earth, and it's aspiritual crisis that we should
all consider from thatperspective we should all
consider from that perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I really resonate with that idea, me too, and the
fact that you know I don'treally have any other
theological lens forunderstanding plastics aside
from sin.
Honestly, and again, like youknow, we're Presbyterian, so
we're not shy of talking aboutsin, especially during Lent.
But that's why Lent providessuch an appropriate framework, I
(39:12):
think, for delving into what'smy participation in this system
that is sinful in that it'shaving these extremely harmful
impacts on all of creation, andyet every day I'm participating
in it.
And so I just think, you know,reflection upon that, you know,
(39:34):
not in a way that it's self,because we don't want to live at
the expense of our siblings increation, and so, just like the
(39:56):
opportunity to get in touch withcoming home to yourself, you
know.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Well, I'm so glad we've had youon the, on the podcast,
catherine, and to talk aboutthese things, and I can't wait
to see the Lenten resource.
And you know it's been.
I've been so lucky to be withyou in ministry for the last
gosh.
How long has it been?
It's been longer than a decade,which is kind of amazing.
(40:24):
But but the evolution is alwaysso interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And I give you Shannon every Easter, because
Shannon baptized my daughterHarvest yeah.
I got to baptize her On EasterSunday 2015 or 2016.
2016.
Yeah, yeah, and so you knowthose Facebook memories pop up
every year of her in her littleplate dress and you're carrying
(40:51):
her around the sanctuary, and soit's a really special memory
and it's such a cool thing to bebonded with you over.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yes, well, and you helped me get my first chicken,
so that's also very special, andI know the Presbytery is
exhausted by hearing about thechickens, but you know,
catherine.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Once you have them, you can't stop.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I know it's addictive and it's good that there's a
limit where I live of just six,because I could see myself
getting into serious troublehere.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So there's imposed limits.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
There's imposed limits, which is good for
someone like me who could reallykind of, you know, go off into
you know another zone somewhere.
So so one of the questions I'vebeen asking people lately it's
actually a question I'mborrowing from a from a climate
podcast I listened to calledOutrage and Optimism, and which
is really great.
And their closing question isto ask people like what's one
(41:45):
thing you're outraged about andwhat's something then this work
that's making you optimistic andwhy?
And so I feel like thePresbyterian spin on that
question is like where do yousee total depravity and where do
you see the Holy Spirit showingup?
And like what's the challenge,what's the hope?
You know what's making you justgo completely out of your mind
(42:05):
these days in your ministry andin this work, and what?
Where do you see the movementof the spirit?
You know, any way, you want toanswer that big question.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Well, I mean I could certainly answer as it relates
to plastics, or I could.
I mean, what is there not to beoutraged over these days?
I have to say I will start withwhat's giving me hope is
Wisconsin.
I was so encouraged to see that, you know, bribing people to
(42:34):
vote doesn't work.
I teach my children thatcheaters never prosper and as we
heard, you know, that adagewhen we were growing up and it's
nice to see that it hasn't goneout of style yet, at least in
America's dairy land where wevacation in the summer.
(42:54):
So we I'm very proud of, youknow, democracy having a win.
So you know that's notnecessarily the Holy Spirit at
work, but yet it is becausethat's justice, you know, the
(43:16):
will of the people being heard.
So that is to me a glimmer ofhope.
That just happened justyesterday.
And you know outrage I mean Itry honestly, I really am trying
hard not to be outraged.
I I'm not surprised.
I can say that I'm neversurprised at what's happening in
this country Right, right now.
(43:37):
I think it is sort of the thenatural end to things that have
long been in place, but I willsay like the gutting of our, you
know, regulatory agencies likethe EPA, and having a new
(43:58):
mission, completely contrary toits mandate, is particularly
enraging.
And so, you know, also, I justI ordered the couple books from
Rebecca Salmet about communitiesthat have resisted, and I think
we need to, I think we need totake some, we need to be
(44:20):
listening and attune our ears topeople who've been long
fighting pollution in theircommunities and fighting for
clean air and clean water,fighting pipelines, and, you
know, hearing their stories andtheir victories, that seemed
impossible against all odds, andso to me, you know it's, it's
(44:41):
outrage, but it's also I justlook at it as an opportunity to
dig further into my calling,which is to grow closer to those
voices and to listen and drawnearer to those communities.
So that's my takeaway.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, I've talked to so many pastors in the last
couple months and all of themare saying the same thing to me,
which is that this moment thatwe're living in, which is full
of so many challenges, this isthe opportunity to really go
back and focus on the gospel andto really focus on Jesus and
what he's asking of us.
And you know what isresurrection, what is new life,
(45:19):
what is wholeness and I loveJesus talking about I came to
bring new life to all ofcreation.
You know, talking about I cameto bring new life to all of
creation.
You know that Jesus's ministrywas that big and that wide and
that open for everybody andeverything.
And so I just I hear a lot ofpeople saying we've got to go
(45:40):
back to basics, we've got to goback to the gospel, we've got to
go back to the Bible and we'vegot to really dig into what's
really there and dig into ourfaith.
And you know, let a thousandflowers bloom, right, I mean, I
think it will.
Just, I really am hoping andpraying for that renewal of the
(46:01):
church and the renewal of eachof us, because I think that that
is one of the ways, you know,we get to healing, and not just
for ourselves, but for all ofthose that we're in community
with.
So so I hear that in you and inyour work too, catherine, so
I'm grateful for you.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I'm grateful for you.
Thank you for everything you'redoing, Shona.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
You're welcome.
Well, thanks for being on ourpodcast and being part of
connecting the conversations,and we will link all of these
resources we talked about in thepodcast notes.
So you just click on that notessection in your podcast area
and whatever however, you getyour podcast.
I know our podcast goes out inall sorts of different ways and
(46:43):
people listen to it and we'regrateful for you, catherine, for
your ministry and all the wayswe can dig into being
ambassadors and disciples forJesus and people who love God
and love the created order.
So thanks again and may thisLent continue to be fruitful for
you.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
And to you as well.
Peace be with you, thank you.
Bye, shannon, bye.
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