February 2, 2025 • 49 mins
In the fifth episode of the Matthew 25 series, Rev. Dr. Shannan Vance-Ocampo is joined by the PC(USA)'s Luciano Kovacs, World Mission's Area Coordinator for the Middle East and Europe, and Rev. Dr. Laurie Kraus, Director, Humanitarian and Global Ecumenical Engagement, for a discussion on the intersectional focus on Militarism, and how the Presbyterian Church can transition from charity to systemic advocacy.
Together, they explore:
- Militarism’s direct connection to poverty and the decline in resources for humanitarian and development work
- The PC(USA)’s engagement and advocacy efforts around ceasefire, military aide and Christian Zionism
- The role of the Presbyterian Church in confronting these challenges and fostering peace
Luciano Kovacs serves the national offices of the Presbyterian Church USA as the World Mission’s area coordinator for the Middle East and Europe. Most recently, Kovacs served as executive director for North America and global program director for advocacy and solidarity at the World Student Christian Federation. He also served as social justice director for Jan Hus Presbyterian Church in New York City. Before that he was Jan Hus’ assistant director, then director of homeless outreach and advocacy. During his career he has also worked at the International Turin Center in Turin, Italy and as the European regional secretary of the World Student Christian Federation. Kovacs has a “Laurea” degree in foreign languages and literature from the University of Turin. He took additional courses in history, sociology pedagogy, cultural and post-colonial studies. He continued his education at the University of Glasgow in Scotland, University College Dublin and University College London.
Rev. Dr. Laurie Ann Kraus serves the national offices of the Presbyterian Church USA as Director of Humanitarian and Global Ecumenical Engagement, in the ministries of Compassion, Peace and Justice. This work coordinates and supports holistic collaboration among the offices of disaster response, migration accompaniment, hunger and development, peacemaking and advocacy for the self-development of people (SDOP). Working alongside faith-based, civil society and ecclesial partners across the globe, this work seeks to accompany vulnerable people in the US and around the world; supporting and advocating their efforts to build sustainable and abundant communities for all, especially in times of disaster, violence, or food insecurity. Prior to her present assignment, Laurie served for 10 years as director of Presbyterian Disaster Assistance. Laurie is on the board and executive committee of ACT Alliance, a consortium of 155 world-wide disaster response, development and advocacy church and faith based organizations. She is a certified spiritual director and compassion fatigue/trauma-informed spiritual care provider.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Vance Ocampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the general presbyterfor the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isconnecting our conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During January and February of2025, we will be doing a special
podcast series on being aMatthew 25 Presbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical
and I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
resource for the wholePresbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical
(00:50):
and I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
resource for the wholepresbytery and also help us to
set intentions around ministryand theology as we begin a new
year.
In addition to this podcast,our presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025.
We'll also focus around variousthemes of Matthew 25 and invite
resources from around thepresbytery.
(01:12):
This podcast series is exploringall areas of Matthew 25 history
, including a special episode atthe beginning on the history
and the theological why of beinga Matthew 25 church, including
a conversation in that firstphrase on what intersectionality
is and why it is at the heartof this ministry.
For today's episode, we aregoing to be focusing on the
(01:36):
Matthew 25 focus, on militarismand what that means for us as
people of faith.
We are talking today to LucianoKovacs, who is the area
coordinator for the Middle Eastand Europe for World Mission,
and Lori Krause, who is thedirector of Humanitarian and
Global Engagement, ecumenicalEngagement.
(01:57):
Your title has changed, loriabout this important feature of
Matthew 25 Minist.
So welcome Luciano and welcomeLori.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Thank you, shannon, it's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thank you.
So I like to start withintroductions.
So whoever wants to go first,just give you a chance to
introduce yourself in whateverway best makes sense for you for
(02:31):
you.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Go ahead, laurie.
Everybody's looking at me, sothat's fine.
So I am Laurie Krauth and, asShannon said, my present title
is Director of Humanitarian andGlobal Ecumenical Engagement,
which is kind of a complicatedway of saying that.
I work in the current ministryarea of compassion, peace and
justice and come to this workfrom a 30 year pastoral career
(02:59):
in two different churchesupstate New York and Miami
Florida upstate New York andMiami Florida a part-time work
as a seminary professor and adirector of a doctor of ministry
program at an interculturalmultilingual seminary in Miami
Florida, and then, for the 10years prior to 2023, as the
(03:21):
director of PresbyterianDisaster Assistance, which is
our denomination's office thatattends to disaster response
both in the United States andglobally.
So the humanitarian part isencompassed in that and also in
work also done in Compassion,peace and Justice, which is the
work done by our PresbyterianHunger Program, which is
(03:43):
development work done by ourPresbyterian Hunger Program,
which is development, foodsovereignty and food sufficiency
.
Anti-poverty work, which ispart of Matthew 25, of course,
and the work of the Office ofSelf-Development of People,
which does small-scaledevelopment work among
organizations that have not yetbeen able to develop any kind of
(04:06):
a presence or an institutionalcoordination.
This is sort of in partnershipwith our long-held commitment to
making sure that any work thatwe do is based on and centered
in the communities and theindividuals who are most deeply
affected, so particularly thework of self-development which
(04:27):
came out of conversations aboutreparations some time ago in the
early days of the civil rightsmovement was meant to provide
space and access and resourcesfor communities that had been
structurally and historicallyexcluded, so that they could
(04:48):
begin their own work, owningtheir own work and producing it,
not in a way that related tosomeone else's charity or
someone else's agency.
The Presbyterian disasterassistance work also includes
some of the work that thedenomination does with refugees,
asylum seekers and migrants.
So for congregations that areinvolved in resettlement work,
(05:12):
immigration work or asylumsanctuary work, we choose
welcome.
That work is also part of thisoverall portfolio.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Great Thanks, lori Luciano.
Tell us about you and whatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Sure.
So hello everybody.
It's great to be here.
My name is Luciano Kovacs.
As Shannon mentioned, I'm theArea Coordinator for the Middle
East and Europe for PCUSA up forPCUSA, currently under World
Mission.
(05:48):
So I've been in this positionfor six years.
Prior to this, I was the NorthAmerican Executive Secretary for
the World Student ChristianFederation and also its Advocacy
and Solidarity Coordinator.
That's when a lot of myexperience with the Middle East
came about and I started gettinginvolved in the PCUSA.
(06:15):
When I was a mission volunteerfrom the Italian Waldensian
Church, which is one of thepartners of the PCUSA, and I
spent two years as a missionvolunteer in New York City at
Jan Hus Presbyterian Church andthen the church hired me as its
(06:38):
social justice director.
So that's how I came uh to thepcusa.
Yeah, and maybe you know I'lltalk more about the the work uh,
in the second part of the yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So, um, you know, laurie, we have a lot of
churches in our presbytery thatare involved in immigration,
refugee, resettlement um, um,iris is the organization
immigrant, refugee um andimmigrant services um that is in
Connecticut.
So we have a lot of churchesthat have done uh, resettlement,
uh through that.
Most recently we had a familyfrom Afghanistan which um, uh
(07:20):
stayed at our church in NewHaven uh, connecticut and uh,
and they've just moved out intotheir own place after staying in
our church for a little over ayear in their resettlement
journey.
So that's been a feature ofministry that's been important
in our Presbyterian.
Of course, pda has been anactive partner in our
(07:41):
Presbyterian.
Unfortunately, a little over adecade ago with the Sandy Hook
shootings, and that ministry isstill really well remembered as
being important during that timein this presbytery.
So, thank you, luciano.
Tell us a little bit more aboutsome of what you're up to in
the Middle East and in Europe.
A little bit more about yourportfolio we heard some from
(08:02):
Laurie, but tell us about whatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Sure.
So basically, together with ateam of regional liaisons and
other mission co-workers, we'relooking after the partnerships
in the Middle East and Europe,and we do this also with
colleagues like Lori and otherin CPJ and in other ministry
(08:32):
areas of the PCSA that are whosework is connected in some ways
to the Middle East and Europe,and one of so.
We interact with partners on adaily basis.
We bring the partners concernsto the PCUSA as well as to our
(08:55):
grassroots partnership networks.
Constituents, our a lot of ourwork, inform the advocacy work
that has been done in WashingtonDC and at the UN and so on and
so forth.
So it's a multiple way ofworking with partners and
(09:17):
constituents on issues that arerelating to the Middle East and
Europe.
And since we are discussingmilitarism today as we progress
in the podcast, I'm going tofocus on the two devastating
wars that are affecting theMiddle East and Europe at the
(09:40):
moment.
Part of my portfolio is also atthe moment.
Part of my portfolio is also soI've been coordinating the work
of Christian on ChristianZionism in the PCSA and together
with other colleagues we'vebeen also engaging with
(10:01):
ecumenical global partners onthis particular issue, such as
the World Communion of ReformedChurches.
I'm also, I've been alsoco-facilitating the Militarism
Working Group which I guess thereason I'm here today is partly
because of that and the LGBTQIAplus working group of the PCSA
(10:22):
working group of the PCSA, and,like many other staff, I'm
involved in different areas ofwork that pertain to what we do
with partners in the Middle East, such as the Migration
Roundtable that Lori is alsopart of.
(10:44):
Early this year, in January, myoffice organized a conference in
Rome on the topic of people onthe move, and so we brought
partners from the Middle Eastand Europe, and also partners
from other denominations, toshare best practices and work on
(11:09):
issues of migration, but alsoto really center the
conversation around voices ofmigrants and refugees themselves
, and refugees themselves,because that's one of the things
that is very important to do togive a platform to those who
(11:39):
are affected by forcedmigrations and, very often
because of conflicts and wars,to speak on their behalf, rather
than those of us who areworking on certain issues to
speak on their behalves, ratherthan, you know, those of us who
are working on certain issues tospeak on their behalf.
So these are some of the thingsthat I've been involved in.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you, and let's talk a little bit about
militarism.
I think it might be helpfuljust to you know.
Throw out, for those who arelistening, a working definition.
What's the working definitionof militarism that we use in our
work in the Presbyterian Churchand you know why does it.
You know what.
You know why be engaged inmilitarism, why does it matter
(12:17):
as part of Matthew 25 ministry?
I know it's in the overture andeverything that started all
this off, but for those who arelistening, some of the sort of
why behind all of this, the workaround militarism.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Should I start?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, sure, whoever.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Well, I mean the PCSA , you know, through the General
Assembly, has spoken aboutmilitarism.
You know, for many, many, manyyears as a work has been around
peacemaking, human rights, dronewarfare, the investments, as
(13:07):
well as how we are supportingour partners who are affected by
militarism in their regions.
If you know, one of the workingdefinitions of militarism is
that militarism is a system ofbeliefs, political priorities
and economic investments, and soit's a system that support a
disproportionate level ofexpenditures on weapons as well
(13:34):
as military aid, as opposed tofocusing on human needs and
social needs.
And actually it's veryinteresting because every time
that we talk about militarismand military aid and you know
(13:54):
we're going to talk aboutmilitary aid that the US is
giving to.
Israel in its wars, the moremoney is for equality of people
(14:19):
and marginalized populations.
And because the Matthew 25 hasthree major foci and three
intersectional emphasis.
If we look at all the six, theother five aspects of the
(14:42):
Matthew 25 vision and ministry,it's clear that militarism is
interconnected with all of them.
So you know the increase inpoverty around the globe is
directly connected to militarism.
You know how the climate andecology are being affected.
(15:10):
You know is a directconsequence of militarism, and
so on and so forth.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
If I could add, displacement of communities,
both internal displacement andactual full-on refugee.
That has gone on from before2015 to somewhere around 30 to
40 million people on the move toover 100 million people on the
(15:38):
move now since the inception ofthe war in Ukraine, kind of
starting this escalationactually with the war in Syria
and then continuing with theonset and continuation of the
war in Ukraine and also theconflict in Gaza that's now
extended into southern Lebanon.
(15:58):
That is not even providing eventhe most basic level of
protection for humanitarian aidworkers, for the UN, for refugee
camps and for people who arebeing forced to go back and
(16:20):
forth in Palestinian territoriesand throughout Palestine and
that's a direct consequence.
That poverty, that displacement, that inability to have a life
that is sustainable and worthliving and free from want and
fear, is directly a consequenceof militarism and, in many cases
(16:45):
, of Christian Zionism andChristian nationalism.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, and at the end of that, you know that chapter
in Matthew 25 where Jesus saysyou know, you know, when did we
see you?
You saw me when you visited mewhen I was in prison.
You saw me when I was, when youvisited me when I was sick,
when you cared for me, when youfed me when I was hungry, when
you clothed me, when I was nakedRight, and so so much of this
(17:11):
direct work that our partnersand we do in these places that
might feel very far from placesin the United States where, you
know, people are in theseincredibly horrific and
destitute situations brought onby war.
And so that would be, you know,for me some of the reason why
we would want to be concernedabout issues such as militarism,
(17:35):
because it really, when you getto those really basic things in
Matthew 25, right aroundpoverty and around destitution,
all of those things go up whenyou're in situations like that,
and the trauma and the breakingof communities, whole countries,
you know, as we're seeing inGaza right now, you know there's
(17:58):
not one part of Gaza that's not, you know, completely broken at
this point.
I also remember years ago I wenton behalf of the PCUSA on a
delegation to visit US militarybases that were being placed in
various parts of Columbia, wheremy husband's from and where
I've engaged in work over theyears.
(18:18):
And Luciana, you brought upthis environmental piece that
folks may not realize.
But US bases overseas areexempt from environmental
regulations, environmentalimpact studies, things like this
.
And then high incidences ofsexual violence against children
(18:38):
and women in places like thisAll of these issues,
interconnected around sort ofwar-making militarism, should be
areas of incredible and deepconcern for us as people of
faith, because these things arereally oppositional to what we
(18:59):
call life abundant or what wecall new life.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And what is interesting, shannon, is,
actually I did some research onthis particular aspect.
Recently there's a report fromBrown University and Brown
University is excellent atproducing reports on everything
militarism and in this reportthey estimated that since the
(19:29):
invasion of Afghanistan in 2001,the US military has emitted
1.212 million metric tons ofgreenhouses.
And so, and you know, the yeah,the carbon dioxide emissions of
(19:53):
the US military only is justhuge.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, I was going to add about the military base
piece that you know there's.
I was in a meeting with GlobalPartners a couple of weeks ago
(20:34):
in Fiji, which also has directimpact from militarism, as do
accompanying island nations theMarshall Islands, the Solomons,
tuvalu, vanuatu, all of thoseaffected by nuclear testing and
by US military presence to thisday, including the climate
impacts of reducing landmassbecause of the rising seas and
also because of the impact ofthe nuclear testing history in
the region.
I was going to add that some ofthe global partners were
(20:57):
talking about how, you know,it's popular to think that the
US has withdrawn militarypresence in terms of having
permanent military bases onallies' soil allies' soil.
(21:19):
But the fact of the matter is,you know, it was very well known
that the US had sort of startedto draw down and close some of
the air bases in the Philippinesand yet in the recent years of
sort of escalating tensions andshifting geopolitics, that
presence has actually crept backin, and so the idea that we're
not having military basesoccupying other countries is not
(21:43):
accurate at this point.
And in the Philippines alonethere's a growing sort of US
military sort of stable presencethat's shaped around the idea
of supporting allies andwatching critical areas of
military unrest, perhaps withRussia, or concerns about North
(22:04):
Korea or concerns about, maybe,China, but those are sort of a
renewed and renewing expressionof at least US militarism.
That's kind of a very old modelof occupation that we had tried
to move away from for someyears.
And then one other thing that Iwas thinking of particularly,
(22:26):
luciano, when you were talkingabout the European work and
partners a direct impact ofmilitarism in the humanitarian
sector is that.
So Luciano mentioned workingstrongly with World Community of
Reformed Churches.
Both of us have intersectionwith the World Council of
Churches and I hold some work, asignificant body of work, with
(22:51):
the ACT Alliance, which is agroup of 155 faith-based
councils of churches, globalchurches and faith-based
response organizations that doadvocacy or humanitarian work or
disaster work or developmentwork.
And we just met in GeneralAssembly, which we do every six
(23:13):
years in Indonesia two weeks agoand almost all of that.
So the balance is that GlobalSouth partners implement and
decide what's needed in theirareas through fora.
So there's anIsrael-Palestine-Middle East
forum, there's a Ukraine forum,there are fora in South America
all over there are four in SouthAmerica all over but most of
(23:40):
the funding happens from globalnorth partners like churches in
our presbyteries who donate toPresbyterian Disaster Assistance
or somewhere else for us tosupport these large-scale
responses that aremulti-relationship,
multi-denominational, and manyof the partners in Europe, many
of the national entities inEurope.
Most of their work is not doneby an entity like USAID, it's
(24:02):
actually done by the churchexpression of the humanitarian
and development work.
So each of the countries inEurope get back donor funding
and state funding to holdbillions of dollars in some
cases, depending on the size ofthe country and their capability
To do humanitarian response inplaces that are afflicted by a
(24:31):
disaster or have a strongdevelopment need or an advocacy
need.
And because of the increase ofmilitarism and the scale up
around Ukraine over the past fewyears, particularly for our
European partners, money forregular humanitarian work that's
not designated to a certainarea has strongly declined and
(24:53):
with the rise of sort of moreconservative or
extremist-leaning,right-wing-leaning governments
in some parts of the EU,actually the money has declined
for international response atall.
So those are really directlylinked to global militarism and
(25:15):
to the concern over globalsecurity in the regions and it
directly affects our ability tosee those who are impoverished,
to see those who are displaced,to see those who are unhoused
and to respond to them in asignificant way.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Thanks, lori.
The context is just incrediblyimportant to understand, and I
think also how much of a web itall is for us as we engage with
partners.
I know that the two big globalhotspots that have been in the
news a lot have been, of course,the conflict in the Middle East
, the war in Gaza, of course,southern Lebanon, and then also
(25:59):
what's going on in Ukraine thewar in Ukraine Not to say that
there aren't other areas aroundthe world but I know that those
two places, luciano especially,are in your portfolio of work,
and so I'm wondering if youcould say a little bit about
where the PCUSA is showing up inthose two places and what our
(26:19):
work and our advocacy looks likethere.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Sure, Sure, sorry, I was trying to unmute myself.
Yeah, I mean, let me start bysaying that the war in Gaza is a
direct consequence of theconcept of militarism.
(26:42):
The US government has beenproviding $3.8 billion to Israel
every year, but since thebeginning of the war in Gaza, it
has increased this military aiddramatically.
And we are talking about, youknow, thousands of Palestinians
(27:15):
who have died.
You know 15,000 children onlyin Gaza.
You know a good number ofchildren in Lebanon as well.
There are also otherconsequences, such as the
banning by the Israeligovernment of Amra, the United
(27:35):
Nations Work Refugees Agency,which is basically criminalizing
humanitarian aid.
And you know, and what we havedefined in one of our overtures,
sbcusa, especially the one onthe Gaza conflict, the Gaza
siege, sorry, collectivepunishment and torture inflicted
(27:57):
on a whole population.
And you know, let's not eventalk about, you know, the
million of people who have beendisplaced and the hospitals that
have been, you know that havesuffered damage, the fact that
polio has returned to Gaza after25 years and that the Israeli
(28:21):
army is one of the mostsophisticated armies in the
world that has been waging thiswar.
But in terms of PCSA'sengagement, as you know, pcsa
has been active on this issueever since 1948, issue ever
(28:53):
since 1948, which is the yearwhich our partners defined an
akba or catastrophe and recentlya lot of our work has focused
(29:15):
on promoting a ceasefire in Gaza.
Actually, a lot of letters weresigned and sent through the
Office of Public Witness inWashington DC on a ceasefire,
but also on putting pressure onthe US government to stop
(29:38):
sending military aid to Israel.
We've also been working onChristian Zionism and how
Christian Zionism is basically avehicle to support, being
promoted by extreme right-wingevangelicals in the US.
(30:15):
But it is something thatpervades all the Christian
churches, whether they areconservative or liberal.
They are conservative orliberal.
And if, on the one hand,christian Zionism has these, the
(30:38):
most extreme version ofChristian Zionism envisions the
so-called Armageddon, right.
So the idea that at some point,the whole territory, from the
river to the sea, is going to beoccupied by Jews and then Jews
(31:00):
will have to convert toChristianity or perish, right.
So it is an apocalyptical wayof looking and the other side of
the metal of settlercolonialism.
But there's also a softerChristian Zionism which involves
(31:28):
every, you know, every church,because in some ways there's
this confusion about how thestate, the current and modern
state of Israel are similar tothe biblical Israel, which is
obviously not the case, and soone of the overtures that the
(31:53):
PCUSA produced at the lastGeneral Assembly was on
confessing our complicity withChristian Zionism, and so this
is a very important work thatthe PCUSA has been doing and, of
course, we've been supportingour partners both in Gaza, as
(32:19):
well as in the West Bank.
So and that's been also a greatcollaboration between my office
and PDA.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And that's been also a great collaboration between
humanitarian aid and also on,you know, ending issues around
violence, what shows up incommunities, so that the work is
still very, very much gospelwork, very focused very tightly
(33:05):
on the way of Jesus, on thegospel of Jesus, and also very,
very tightly focused on not justecumenical work with our
partners you know who might be,you know from the World Alliance
of Churches or ReformedChurches, the World Council of
Churches but eveninterreligiously and paying
attention so that we don't showup and engage in something like
(33:30):
Christian Zionism, which isreally quite anti-Semitic, you
know, and that we show up withrespect for our partners and
also really engage in that workin thoughtful ways.
So it's incredibly important toremember that, because I think
there is just so much sort ofnoise and commentary out there,
(33:52):
but when we really dig down andlook at what we're actually
doing, nothing that we're doingis in any way not grounded in a
deep theology and in deepthoughtfulness and a real hewing
to our tradition and who we areas Christians and as
Presbyterians.
So I think that's the otherpiece that's so important,
(34:13):
because oftentimes there's a lotof noise around these things
here in the United States, ormaybe not even an understanding
of the why behind what we do.
Luciano, I don't know if youwant to say a few things before
we close here about Ukraine orabout some of that work.
I know we're recording thispodcast just a little bit before
(34:34):
Thanksgiving and of coursethat's back in the news again
this week.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I mean we've been talking this week that a
thousand days have passed since,you know, the invasion of
Ukraine had been absolutelydramatic and catastrophical for
so many people.
So many people have been killedand wounded and displaced, a
sign of ending of this war.
Just a couple of nights ago, aschool dormitory in the Sumy
(35:36):
region of Ukraine was bombed bythe Russian, killing 10 people,
including a child.
So, again, you know, the waraffects so many people and each
person has a story behind.
I was reading that, accordingto Save the Children, about
(36:00):
500,000 babies have been bornduring these 33 months of war,
during these 33 months of war,and so you know what is the
(36:21):
future for these kids is really.
And now we're looking at somedecisions that have been made.
You know Joe Biden's decisionto allow Ukraine to use the
(36:57):
missiles and the future andnobody knows what is going to
happen immediately organized acounterattack, upgrading the
Russian Federation's nucleardoctrine to allow the use of
(37:17):
nuclear weapons.
Rather than seeing an endthrough diplomatic means to this
war, we military spending inthe EU.
So in some ways, the EU whichwas, you know, and you know I
(38:00):
was born and grew up in Europe,so for me the formation of the
EU was a dream of peace, withjustice on the continent and
also in partnership with otherstates and countries, and in
(38:20):
fact a lot of those dreams havebeen disappointed to many of us.
But right now again, even inthe EU, social spending is cut
and military spending is growing.
Just yesterday there were twomeetings in Warsaw and Brussels.
(38:46):
Warsaw and Brussels, where someEuropean countries, including
the United Kingdom, which is notpart of the EU anymore, spoke
for the first time in favor ofEuropean bonds to finance the
military industry and thereforestrengthen European
(39:08):
participation in the arms race.
So the consequences of this waron militarization into the
future are really, really huge.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, thank you for that.
I think these are, you know,these are very, very detailed
explanations, but incrediblyimportant for us to consider as
people of faith how we show up,how we connect with our elected
officials, how we talk in ourcongregations and also how we
really consider, you know, howwe project ourselves out in our
(39:50):
communities and what we talkabout.
So I hope that, as we've, youknow, listened to this
conversation today, for those ofyou who are listening, this has
been, you know, probably out ofthe seven podcasts for this
series, the most technical andin-depth, but I hope that it
really, you know, helps us tobegin to think about some of
these issues in really seriousways, and especially as we enter
(40:13):
into a new year with so much onthe horizon for all of us in
2025.
So I want to, you know, draw usto a close, and one of the
things I've asked previouspodcast guests, as we've closed,
is what's something in yourarea of work that's giving you
great hope um and uh invites youtowards that idea of hope, and
(40:37):
what's something that is still,uh, bedeviling you right or
potentially causing some outrage, um and uh.
So I just want to give each ofyou an opportunity to share a
little bit about that as we, um,as we bring this conversation
to a close.
Uh, lori, what's bringing youhope and what's worrying you?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I know the list is long that, first of all, I know
that many, many congregationsand individuals in Southern New
England Presbytery havesupported the humanitarian
responses in Israel-Palestine,in Southern Lebanon and in
Ukraine generously, and I thinkone of the things that gives me
(41:20):
hope.
Besides, let me say thank youfor the care and the attention
and the turning away from morelocal and serious concerns to
broaden the care and theextension of love and support to
the world.
I think one of the thingsthat's giving me hope is the
(41:40):
fact that we are learning asPresbyterians that that
charitable response orhumanitarian response is only
one of an incredibly linked waythat we can show up with justice
and with impact in the world.
Once upon a time, people whowanted to give to charity or who
(42:03):
wanted to give to humanitarianresponse would say, well, we
don't want to hear aboutpolitics, we don't want to get
involved in advocacy, we don'twant to do the Washington office
, we just want to, you know,bring things so that people can
find shelter and have enoughfood and, you know, rebuild
their lives after somethingcatastrophic has happened.
But it's really true that youcan't sever those things and the
(42:26):
fact that the PresbyterianChurch has learned that, that
they understand that giving justa humanitarian gift, without
attending to systemic advocacy,without looking at the global
issues that cause thesedisasters and these conflicts to
be so catastrophic in theirimpact on humanity and on our
(42:50):
common wealth in the world iswonderful.
And the fact that thePresbyterian Church does this,
that we have local partnershipsacross the world, that we have a
strong humanitarian responsethat that's linked with other
people around the globe, and wedon't do that without speaking
to our own government andspeaking in connection with the
(43:13):
UN, and trying to do this worksystemically in a way that
brings response and relief withjustice and with a better
understanding of how we can be amore unified world community.
That constantly gives me hope,even though it feels a lot like
we're just sort of chipping awayat endless needs, but that we
(43:33):
now see the linkages of thosethings and we're trying to do
unified, systemic response isincredibly rewarding and
emotionally strengthening, Ithink, to all of us who do this
work.
You said something that isbedeviling and I think that
(43:54):
we're just that we're going intoa season of of looking
internally.
It seems so much worse forpeople who really need our
(44:18):
solidarity and it's nonsense.
Our sort of self-preoccupationwith these games is nonsense and
it's very bedeviling.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Thanks, Laurie.
Luciano, what's on your mind?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, you know, I've been, I've been for, you know,
for some time.
Middle East and what ishappening in Ukraine, and so on
and so forth, have really upsetmy ability to understand what
hope would even mean, and sosometimes I prefer to use the
word inspiration.
And you know Laurie was talkingabout, you know, our partners.
I get inspired by a lot of thework that is being done by our
partners, as well as by a lot of, you know, peacemaking and
(45:45):
justice-seeking grassrootsmovements around the globe.
I know that I mean for myself.
You know I was in my 20s in the1990s and there was so much
(46:18):
young in that decade what thefall of the Berlin Wall meant,
and also the movement to counterwhat at that time was called
globalization right,globalization right.
And so the hope that was comingfrom the global South and that
(46:39):
we would, you know, definitelycome together as a global
community to, you know, smashinjustice.
And then the 2000s came, and itwas not just September 11th,
(47:04):
but it was actually July 2001,which started repressing the
global, the anti-globalizationmovement, which, in my opinion,
had brought about so much hope.
And so I think that I findinspiration and some hope in the
work that is possible to bedone by local movements, local
(47:31):
congregations, partners, socialjustice movements and so on and
so forth, and I do believe thatthe PeaceUSA is intersecting,
both domestically and globally,with so many individuals and
organizations that are doing,you know, the God-given work of
(47:55):
peace with justice, and so thisis what continues to inspire me
and motivate me to do the workthat I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Thanks, luciano.
I want to thank both of you forbeing with us today to talk
about some of these things, andI hope we'll put some notes in
the podcast notes links to PDA,links to, luciano, your work.
I also know that there was agreat webinar that was done, a
series on sort of one by thePCSA, and then also we shared
(48:31):
the Christian Zionism one aroundthe Presbytery.
That was done over the summermonths.
So thank you both so much foryour work, for your ministry.
I know that, uh, you bothrepresent some of the hardest
pieces of our national work and,um, also sometimes the most
traumatizing pieces of our work,and so, just, uh, I want to
(48:52):
especially say thank you to bothof you and uh know that you are
so much in our prayers.
Your ministry and as aPresbytery, we're really glad to
be supportive in the ways thatwe can, and also continue to
grow in our understanding as wemove forward into this new year.
So thank you both so much forbeing part of connecting our
(49:14):
conversations today.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Thanks for reaching out.
Shannon and for thePresbyterian's interest, and
it's nice to have some quietmoments to talk about things
that are often just urgentactions that we're all taking
and to reflect on the largerimpact and context of it.
So appreciate the chance to sitwith Luciano and you about this
.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
No problem.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
Thank you so much, shannon, and we're grateful for
this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Thank you.
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Vance Ocampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the general presbyterfor the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isconnecting our conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During January and February of2025, we will be doing a special
podcast series on being aMatthew 25 Presbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical
and I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
resource for the wholePresbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical
(00:50):
and I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
resource for the wholepresbytery and also help us to
set intentions around ministryand theology as we begin a new
year.
In addition to this podcast,our presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025.
We'll also focus around variousthemes of Matthew 25 and invite
resources from around thepresbytery.
(01:12):
This podcast series is exploringall areas of Matthew 25 history
, including a special episode atthe beginning on the history
and the theological why of beinga Matthew 25 church, including
a conversation in that firstphrase on what intersectionality
is and why it is at the heartof this ministry.
For today's episode, we aregoing to be focusing on the
(01:36):
Matthew 25 focus, on militarismand what that means for us as
people of faith.
We are talking today to LucianoKovacs, who is the area
coordinator for the Middle Eastand Europe for World Mission,
and Lori Krause, who is thedirector of Humanitarian and
Global Engagement, ecumenicalEngagement.
(01:57):
Your title has changed, loriabout this important feature of
Matthew 25 Minist.
So welcome Luciano and welcomeLori.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Thank you, shannon, it's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thank you.
So I like to start withintroductions.
So whoever wants to go first,just give you a chance to
introduce yourself in whateverway best makes sense for you for
(02:31):
you.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Go ahead, laurie.
Everybody's looking at me, sothat's fine.
So I am Laurie Krauth and, asShannon said, my present title
is Director of Humanitarian andGlobal Ecumenical Engagement,
which is kind of a complicatedway of saying that.
I work in the current ministryarea of compassion, peace and
justice and come to this workfrom a 30 year pastoral career
(02:59):
in two different churchesupstate New York and Miami
Florida upstate New York andMiami Florida a part-time work
as a seminary professor and adirector of a doctor of ministry
program at an interculturalmultilingual seminary in Miami
Florida, and then, for the 10years prior to 2023, as the
(03:21):
director of PresbyterianDisaster Assistance, which is
our denomination's office thatattends to disaster response
both in the United States andglobally.
So the humanitarian part isencompassed in that and also in
work also done in Compassion,peace and Justice, which is the
work done by our PresbyterianHunger Program, which is
(03:43):
development work done by ourPresbyterian Hunger Program,
which is development, foodsovereignty and food sufficiency
.
Anti-poverty work, which ispart of Matthew 25, of course,
and the work of the Office ofSelf-Development of People,
which does small-scaledevelopment work among
organizations that have not yetbeen able to develop any kind of
(04:06):
a presence or an institutionalcoordination.
This is sort of in partnershipwith our long-held commitment to
making sure that any work thatwe do is based on and centered
in the communities and theindividuals who are most deeply
affected, so particularly thework of self-development which
(04:27):
came out of conversations aboutreparations some time ago in the
early days of the civil rightsmovement was meant to provide
space and access and resourcesfor communities that had been
structurally and historicallyexcluded, so that they could
(04:48):
begin their own work, owningtheir own work and producing it,
not in a way that related tosomeone else's charity or
someone else's agency.
The Presbyterian disasterassistance work also includes
some of the work that thedenomination does with refugees,
asylum seekers and migrants.
So for congregations that areinvolved in resettlement work,
(05:12):
immigration work or asylumsanctuary work, we choose
welcome.
That work is also part of thisoverall portfolio.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Great Thanks, lori Luciano.
Tell us about you and whatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Sure.
So hello everybody.
It's great to be here.
My name is Luciano Kovacs.
As Shannon mentioned, I'm theArea Coordinator for the Middle
East and Europe for PCUSA up forPCUSA, currently under World
Mission.
(05:48):
So I've been in this positionfor six years.
Prior to this, I was the NorthAmerican Executive Secretary for
the World Student ChristianFederation and also its Advocacy
and Solidarity Coordinator.
That's when a lot of myexperience with the Middle East
came about and I started gettinginvolved in the PCUSA.
(06:15):
When I was a mission volunteerfrom the Italian Waldensian
Church, which is one of thepartners of the PCUSA, and I
spent two years as a missionvolunteer in New York City at
Jan Hus Presbyterian Church andthen the church hired me as its
(06:38):
social justice director.
So that's how I came uh to thepcusa.
Yeah, and maybe you know I'lltalk more about the the work uh,
in the second part of the yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
So, um, you know, laurie, we have a lot of
churches in our presbytery thatare involved in immigration,
refugee, resettlement um, um,iris is the organization
immigrant, refugee um andimmigrant services um that is in
Connecticut.
So we have a lot of churchesthat have done uh, resettlement,
uh through that.
Most recently we had a familyfrom Afghanistan which um, uh
(07:20):
stayed at our church in NewHaven uh, connecticut and uh,
and they've just moved out intotheir own place after staying in
our church for a little over ayear in their resettlement
journey.
So that's been a feature ofministry that's been important
in our Presbyterian.
Of course, pda has been anactive partner in our
(07:41):
Presbyterian.
Unfortunately, a little over adecade ago with the Sandy Hook
shootings, and that ministry isstill really well remembered as
being important during that timein this presbytery.
So, thank you, luciano.
Tell us a little bit more aboutsome of what you're up to in
the Middle East and in Europe.
A little bit more about yourportfolio we heard some from
(08:02):
Laurie, but tell us about whatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Sure.
So basically, together with ateam of regional liaisons and
other mission co-workers, we'relooking after the partnerships
in the Middle East and Europe,and we do this also with
colleagues like Lori and otherin CPJ and in other ministry
(08:32):
areas of the PCSA that are whosework is connected in some ways
to the Middle East and Europe,and one of so.
We interact with partners on adaily basis.
We bring the partners concernsto the PCUSA as well as to our
(08:55):
grassroots partnership networks.
Constituents, our a lot of ourwork, inform the advocacy work
that has been done in WashingtonDC and at the UN and so on and
so forth.
So it's a multiple way ofworking with partners and
(09:17):
constituents on issues that arerelating to the Middle East and
Europe.
And since we are discussingmilitarism today as we progress
in the podcast, I'm going tofocus on the two devastating
wars that are affecting theMiddle East and Europe at the
(09:40):
moment.
Part of my portfolio is also atthe moment.
Part of my portfolio is also soI've been coordinating the work
of Christian on ChristianZionism in the PCSA and together
with other colleagues we'vebeen also engaging with
(10:01):
ecumenical global partners onthis particular issue, such as
the World Communion of ReformedChurches.
I'm also, I've been alsoco-facilitating the Militarism
Working Group which I guess thereason I'm here today is partly
because of that and the LGBTQIAplus working group of the PCSA
(10:22):
working group of the PCSA, and,like many other staff, I'm
involved in different areas ofwork that pertain to what we do
with partners in the Middle East, such as the Migration
Roundtable that Lori is alsopart of.
(10:44):
Early this year, in January, myoffice organized a conference in
Rome on the topic of people onthe move, and so we brought
partners from the Middle Eastand Europe, and also partners
from other denominations, toshare best practices and work on
(11:09):
issues of migration, but alsoto really center the
conversation around voices ofmigrants and refugees themselves
, and refugees themselves,because that's one of the things
that is very important to do togive a platform to those who
(11:39):
are affected by forcedmigrations and, very often
because of conflicts and wars,to speak on their behalf, rather
than those of us who areworking on certain issues to
speak on their behalves, ratherthan, you know, those of us who
are working on certain issues tospeak on their behalf.
So these are some of the thingsthat I've been involved in.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you, and let's talk a little bit about
militarism.
I think it might be helpfuljust to you know.
Throw out, for those who arelistening, a working definition.
What's the working definitionof militarism that we use in our
work in the Presbyterian Churchand you know why does it.
You know what.
You know why be engaged inmilitarism, why does it matter
(12:17):
as part of Matthew 25 ministry?
I know it's in the overture andeverything that started all
this off, but for those who arelistening, some of the sort of
why behind all of this, the workaround militarism.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Should I start?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, sure, whoever.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Well, I mean the PCSA , you know, through the General
Assembly, has spoken aboutmilitarism.
You know, for many, many, manyyears as a work has been around
peacemaking, human rights, dronewarfare, the investments, as
(13:07):
well as how we are supportingour partners who are affected by
militarism in their regions.
If you know, one of the workingdefinitions of militarism is
that militarism is a system ofbeliefs, political priorities
and economic investments, and soit's a system that support a
disproportionate level ofexpenditures on weapons as well
(13:34):
as military aid, as opposed tofocusing on human needs and
social needs.
And actually it's veryinteresting because every time
that we talk about militarismand military aid and you know
(13:54):
we're going to talk aboutmilitary aid that the US is
giving to.
Israel in its wars, the moremoney is for equality of people
(14:19):
and marginalized populations.
And because the Matthew 25 hasthree major foci and three
intersectional emphasis.
If we look at all the six, theother five aspects of the
(14:42):
Matthew 25 vision and ministry,it's clear that militarism is
interconnected with all of them.
So you know the increase inpoverty around the globe is
directly connected to militarism.
You know how the climate andecology are being affected.
(15:10):
You know is a directconsequence of militarism, and
so on and so forth.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
If I could add, displacement of communities,
both internal displacement andactual full-on refugee.
That has gone on from before2015 to somewhere around 30 to
40 million people on the move toover 100 million people on the
(15:38):
move now since the inception ofthe war in Ukraine, kind of
starting this escalationactually with the war in Syria
and then continuing with theonset and continuation of the
war in Ukraine and also theconflict in Gaza that's now
extended into southern Lebanon.
(15:58):
That is not even providing eventhe most basic level of
protection for humanitarian aidworkers, for the UN, for refugee
camps and for people who arebeing forced to go back and
(16:20):
forth in Palestinian territoriesand throughout Palestine and
that's a direct consequence.
That poverty, that displacement, that inability to have a life
that is sustainable and worthliving and free from want and
fear, is directly a consequenceof militarism and, in many cases
(16:45):
, of Christian Zionism andChristian nationalism.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, and at the end of that, you know that chapter
in Matthew 25 where Jesus saysyou know, you know, when did we
see you?
You saw me when you visited mewhen I was in prison.
You saw me when I was, when youvisited me when I was sick,
when you cared for me, when youfed me when I was hungry, when
you clothed me, when I was nakedRight, and so so much of this
(17:11):
direct work that our partnersand we do in these places that
might feel very far from placesin the United States where, you
know, people are in theseincredibly horrific and
destitute situations brought onby war.
And so that would be, you know,for me some of the reason why
we would want to be concernedabout issues such as militarism,
(17:35):
because it really, when you getto those really basic things in
Matthew 25, right aroundpoverty and around destitution,
all of those things go up whenyou're in situations like that,
and the trauma and the breakingof communities, whole countries,
you know, as we're seeing inGaza right now, you know there's
(17:58):
not one part of Gaza that's not, you know, completely broken at
this point.
I also remember years ago I wenton behalf of the PCUSA on a
delegation to visit US militarybases that were being placed in
various parts of Columbia, wheremy husband's from and where
I've engaged in work over theyears.
(18:18):
And Luciana, you brought upthis environmental piece that
folks may not realize.
But US bases overseas areexempt from environmental
regulations, environmentalimpact studies, things like this
.
And then high incidences ofsexual violence against children
(18:38):
and women in places like thisAll of these issues,
interconnected around sort ofwar-making militarism, should be
areas of incredible and deepconcern for us as people of
faith, because these things arereally oppositional to what we
(18:59):
call life abundant or what wecall new life.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And what is interesting, shannon, is,
actually I did some research onthis particular aspect.
Recently there's a report fromBrown University and Brown
University is excellent atproducing reports on everything
militarism and in this reportthey estimated that since the
(19:29):
invasion of Afghanistan in 2001,the US military has emitted
1.212 million metric tons ofgreenhouses.
And so, and you know, the yeah,the carbon dioxide emissions of
(19:53):
the US military only is justhuge.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, I was going to add about the military base
piece that you know there's.
I was in a meeting with GlobalPartners a couple of weeks ago
(20:34):
in Fiji, which also has directimpact from militarism, as do
accompanying island nations theMarshall Islands, the Solomons,
tuvalu, vanuatu, all of thoseaffected by nuclear testing and
by US military presence to thisday, including the climate
impacts of reducing landmassbecause of the rising seas and
also because of the impact ofthe nuclear testing history in
the region.
I was going to add that some ofthe global partners were
(20:57):
talking about how, you know,it's popular to think that the
US has withdrawn militarypresence in terms of having
permanent military bases onallies' soil allies' soil.
(21:19):
But the fact of the matter is,you know, it was very well known
that the US had sort of startedto draw down and close some of
the air bases in the Philippinesand yet in the recent years of
sort of escalating tensions andshifting geopolitics, that
presence has actually crept backin, and so the idea that we're
not having military basesoccupying other countries is not
(21:43):
accurate at this point.
And in the Philippines alonethere's a growing sort of US
military sort of stable presencethat's shaped around the idea
of supporting allies andwatching critical areas of
military unrest, perhaps withRussia, or concerns about North
(22:04):
Korea or concerns about, maybe,China, but those are sort of a
renewed and renewing expressionof at least US militarism.
That's kind of a very old modelof occupation that we had tried
to move away from for someyears.
And then one other thing that Iwas thinking of particularly,
(22:26):
luciano, when you were talkingabout the European work and
partners a direct impact ofmilitarism in the humanitarian
sector is that.
So Luciano mentioned workingstrongly with World Community of
Reformed Churches.
Both of us have intersectionwith the World Council of
Churches and I hold some work, asignificant body of work, with
(22:51):
the ACT Alliance, which is agroup of 155 faith-based
councils of churches, globalchurches and faith-based
response organizations that doadvocacy or humanitarian work or
disaster work or developmentwork.
And we just met in GeneralAssembly, which we do every six
(23:13):
years in Indonesia two weeks agoand almost all of that.
So the balance is that GlobalSouth partners implement and
decide what's needed in theirareas through fora.
So there's anIsrael-Palestine-Middle East
forum, there's a Ukraine forum,there are fora in South America
all over there are four in SouthAmerica all over but most of
(23:40):
the funding happens from globalnorth partners like churches in
our presbyteries who donate toPresbyterian Disaster Assistance
or somewhere else for us tosupport these large-scale
responses that aremulti-relationship,
multi-denominational, and manyof the partners in Europe, many
of the national entities inEurope.
Most of their work is not doneby an entity like USAID, it's
(24:02):
actually done by the churchexpression of the humanitarian
and development work.
So each of the countries inEurope get back donor funding
and state funding to holdbillions of dollars in some
cases, depending on the size ofthe country and their capability
To do humanitarian response inplaces that are afflicted by a
(24:31):
disaster or have a strongdevelopment need or an advocacy
need.
And because of the increase ofmilitarism and the scale up
around Ukraine over the past fewyears, particularly for our
European partners, money forregular humanitarian work that's
not designated to a certainarea has strongly declined and
(24:53):
with the rise of sort of moreconservative or
extremist-leaning,right-wing-leaning governments
in some parts of the EU,actually the money has declined
for international response atall.
So those are really directlylinked to global militarism and
(25:15):
to the concern over globalsecurity in the regions and it
directly affects our ability tosee those who are impoverished,
to see those who are displaced,to see those who are unhoused
and to respond to them in asignificant way.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Thanks, lori.
The context is just incrediblyimportant to understand, and I
think also how much of a web itall is for us as we engage with
partners.
I know that the two big globalhotspots that have been in the
news a lot have been, of course,the conflict in the Middle East
, the war in Gaza, of course,southern Lebanon, and then also
(25:59):
what's going on in Ukraine thewar in Ukraine Not to say that
there aren't other areas aroundthe world but I know that those
two places, luciano especially,are in your portfolio of work,
and so I'm wondering if youcould say a little bit about
where the PCUSA is showing up inthose two places and what our
(26:19):
work and our advocacy looks likethere.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Sure, Sure, sorry, I was trying to unmute myself.
Yeah, I mean, let me start bysaying that the war in Gaza is a
direct consequence of theconcept of militarism.
(26:42):
The US government has beenproviding $3.8 billion to Israel
every year, but since thebeginning of the war in Gaza, it
has increased this military aiddramatically.
And we are talking about, youknow, thousands of Palestinians
(27:15):
who have died.
You know 15,000 children onlyin Gaza.
You know a good number ofchildren in Lebanon as well.
There are also otherconsequences, such as the
banning by the Israeligovernment of Amra, the United
(27:35):
Nations Work Refugees Agency,which is basically criminalizing
humanitarian aid.
And you know, and what we havedefined in one of our overtures,
sbcusa, especially the one onthe Gaza conflict, the Gaza
siege, sorry, collectivepunishment and torture inflicted
(27:57):
on a whole population.
And you know, let's not eventalk about, you know, the
million of people who have beendisplaced and the hospitals that
have been, you know that havesuffered damage, the fact that
polio has returned to Gaza after25 years and that the Israeli
(28:21):
army is one of the mostsophisticated armies in the
world that has been waging thiswar.
But in terms of PCSA'sengagement, as you know, pcsa
has been active on this issueever since 1948, issue ever
(28:53):
since 1948, which is the yearwhich our partners defined an
akba or catastrophe and recentlya lot of our work has focused
(29:15):
on promoting a ceasefire in Gaza.
Actually, a lot of letters weresigned and sent through the
Office of Public Witness inWashington DC on a ceasefire,
but also on putting pressure onthe US government to stop
(29:38):
sending military aid to Israel.
We've also been working onChristian Zionism and how
Christian Zionism is basically avehicle to support, being
promoted by extreme right-wingevangelicals in the US.
(30:15):
But it is something thatpervades all the Christian
churches, whether they areconservative or liberal.
They are conservative orliberal.
And if, on the one hand,christian Zionism has these, the
(30:38):
most extreme version ofChristian Zionism envisions the
so-called Armageddon, right.
So the idea that at some point,the whole territory, from the
river to the sea, is going to beoccupied by Jews and then Jews
(31:00):
will have to convert toChristianity or perish, right.
So it is an apocalyptical wayof looking and the other side of
the metal of settlercolonialism.
But there's also a softerChristian Zionism which involves
(31:28):
every, you know, every church,because in some ways there's
this confusion about how thestate, the current and modern
state of Israel are similar tothe biblical Israel, which is
obviously not the case, and soone of the overtures that the
(31:53):
PCUSA produced at the lastGeneral Assembly was on
confessing our complicity withChristian Zionism, and so this
is a very important work thatthe PCUSA has been doing and, of
course, we've been supportingour partners both in Gaza, as
(32:19):
well as in the West Bank.
So and that's been also a greatcollaboration between my office
and PDA.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And that's been also a great collaboration between
humanitarian aid and also on,you know, ending issues around
violence, what shows up incommunities, so that the work is
still very, very much gospelwork, very focused very tightly
(33:05):
on the way of Jesus, on thegospel of Jesus, and also very,
very tightly focused on not justecumenical work with our
partners you know who might be,you know from the World Alliance
of Churches or ReformedChurches, the World Council of
Churches but eveninterreligiously and paying
attention so that we don't showup and engage in something like
(33:30):
Christian Zionism, which isreally quite anti-Semitic, you
know, and that we show up withrespect for our partners and
also really engage in that workin thoughtful ways.
So it's incredibly important toremember that, because I think
there is just so much sort ofnoise and commentary out there,
(33:52):
but when we really dig down andlook at what we're actually
doing, nothing that we're doingis in any way not grounded in a
deep theology and in deepthoughtfulness and a real hewing
to our tradition and who we areas Christians and as
Presbyterians.
So I think that's the otherpiece that's so important,
(34:13):
because oftentimes there's a lotof noise around these things
here in the United States, ormaybe not even an understanding
of the why behind what we do.
Luciano, I don't know if youwant to say a few things before
we close here about Ukraine orabout some of that work.
I know we're recording thispodcast just a little bit before
(34:34):
Thanksgiving and of coursethat's back in the news again
this week.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I mean we've been talking this week that a
thousand days have passed since,you know, the invasion of
Ukraine had been absolutelydramatic and catastrophical for
so many people.
So many people have been killedand wounded and displaced, a
sign of ending of this war.
Just a couple of nights ago, aschool dormitory in the Sumy
(35:36):
region of Ukraine was bombed bythe Russian, killing 10 people,
including a child.
So, again, you know, the waraffects so many people and each
person has a story behind.
I was reading that, accordingto Save the Children, about
(36:00):
500,000 babies have been bornduring these 33 months of war,
during these 33 months of war,and so you know what is the
(36:21):
future for these kids is really.
And now we're looking at somedecisions that have been made.
You know Joe Biden's decisionto allow Ukraine to use the
(36:57):
missiles and the future andnobody knows what is going to
happen immediately organized acounterattack, upgrading the
Russian Federation's nucleardoctrine to allow the use of
(37:17):
nuclear weapons.
Rather than seeing an endthrough diplomatic means to this
war, we military spending inthe EU.
So in some ways, the EU whichwas, you know, and you know I
(38:00):
was born and grew up in Europe,so for me the formation of the
EU was a dream of peace, withjustice on the continent and
also in partnership with otherstates and countries, and in
(38:20):
fact a lot of those dreams havebeen disappointed to many of us.
But right now again, even inthe EU, social spending is cut
and military spending is growing.
Just yesterday there were twomeetings in Warsaw and Brussels.
(38:46):
Warsaw and Brussels, where someEuropean countries, including
the United Kingdom, which is notpart of the EU anymore, spoke
for the first time in favor ofEuropean bonds to finance the
military industry and thereforestrengthen European
(39:08):
participation in the arms race.
So the consequences of this waron militarization into the
future are really, really huge.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, thank you for that.
I think these are, you know,these are very, very detailed
explanations, but incrediblyimportant for us to consider as
people of faith how we show up,how we connect with our elected
officials, how we talk in ourcongregations and also how we
really consider, you know, howwe project ourselves out in our
(39:50):
communities and what we talkabout.
So I hope that, as we've, youknow, listened to this
conversation today, for those ofyou who are listening, this has
been, you know, probably out ofthe seven podcasts for this
series, the most technical andin-depth, but I hope that it
really, you know, helps us tobegin to think about some of
these issues in really seriousways, and especially as we enter
(40:13):
into a new year with so much onthe horizon for all of us in
2025.
So I want to, you know, draw usto a close, and one of the
things I've asked previouspodcast guests, as we've closed,
is what's something in yourarea of work that's giving you
great hope um and uh invites youtowards that idea of hope, and
(40:37):
what's something that is still,uh, bedeviling you right or
potentially causing some outrage, um and uh.
So I just want to give each ofyou an opportunity to share a
little bit about that as we, um,as we bring this conversation
to a close.
Uh, lori, what's bringing youhope and what's worrying you?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I know the list is long that, first of all, I know
that many, many congregationsand individuals in Southern New
England Presbytery havesupported the humanitarian
responses in Israel-Palestine,in Southern Lebanon and in
Ukraine generously, and I thinkone of the things that gives me
(41:20):
hope.
Besides, let me say thank youfor the care and the attention
and the turning away from morelocal and serious concerns to
broaden the care and theextension of love and support to
the world.
I think one of the thingsthat's giving me hope is the
(41:40):
fact that we are learning asPresbyterians that that
charitable response orhumanitarian response is only
one of an incredibly linked waythat we can show up with justice
and with impact in the world.
Once upon a time, people whowanted to give to charity or who
(42:03):
wanted to give to humanitarianresponse would say, well, we
don't want to hear aboutpolitics, we don't want to get
involved in advocacy, we don'twant to do the Washington office
, we just want to, you know,bring things so that people can
find shelter and have enoughfood and, you know, rebuild
their lives after somethingcatastrophic has happened.
But it's really true that youcan't sever those things and the
(42:26):
fact that the PresbyterianChurch has learned that, that
they understand that giving justa humanitarian gift, without
attending to systemic advocacy,without looking at the global
issues that cause thesedisasters and these conflicts to
be so catastrophic in theirimpact on humanity and on our
(42:50):
common wealth in the world iswonderful.
And the fact that thePresbyterian Church does this,
that we have local partnershipsacross the world, that we have a
strong humanitarian responsethat that's linked with other
people around the globe, and wedon't do that without speaking
to our own government andspeaking in connection with the
(43:13):
UN, and trying to do this worksystemically in a way that
brings response and relief withjustice and with a better
understanding of how we can be amore unified world community.
That constantly gives me hope,even though it feels a lot like
we're just sort of chipping awayat endless needs, but that we
(43:33):
now see the linkages of thosethings and we're trying to do
unified, systemic response isincredibly rewarding and
emotionally strengthening, Ithink, to all of us who do this
work.
You said something that isbedeviling and I think that
(43:54):
we're just that we're going intoa season of of looking
internally.
It seems so much worse forpeople who really need our
(44:18):
solidarity and it's nonsense.
Our sort of self-preoccupationwith these games is nonsense and
it's very bedeviling.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Thanks, Laurie.
Luciano, what's on your mind?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, you know, I've been, I've been for, you know,
for some time.
Middle East and what ishappening in Ukraine, and so on
and so forth, have really upsetmy ability to understand what
hope would even mean, and sosometimes I prefer to use the
word inspiration.
And you know Laurie was talkingabout, you know, our partners.
I get inspired by a lot of thework that is being done by our
partners, as well as by a lot of, you know, peacemaking and
(45:45):
justice-seeking grassrootsmovements around the globe.
I know that I mean for myself.
You know I was in my 20s in the1990s and there was so much
(46:18):
young in that decade what thefall of the Berlin Wall meant,
and also the movement to counterwhat at that time was called
globalization right,globalization right.
And so the hope that was comingfrom the global South and that
(46:39):
we would, you know, definitelycome together as a global
community to, you know, smashinjustice.
And then the 2000s came, and itwas not just September 11th,
(47:04):
but it was actually July 2001,which started repressing the
global, the anti-globalizationmovement, which, in my opinion,
had brought about so much hope.
And so I think that I findinspiration and some hope in the
work that is possible to bedone by local movements, local
(47:31):
congregations, partners, socialjustice movements and so on and
so forth, and I do believe thatthe PeaceUSA is intersecting,
both domestically and globally,with so many individuals and
organizations that are doing,you know, the God-given work of
(47:55):
peace with justice, and so thisis what continues to inspire me
and motivate me to do the workthat I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Thanks, luciano.
I want to thank both of you forbeing with us today to talk
about some of these things, andI hope we'll put some notes in
the podcast notes links to PDA,links to, luciano, your work.
I also know that there was agreat webinar that was done, a
series on sort of one by thePCSA, and then also we shared
(48:31):
the Christian Zionism one aroundthe Presbytery.
That was done over the summermonths.
So thank you both so much foryour work, for your ministry.
I know that, uh, you bothrepresent some of the hardest
pieces of our national work and,um, also sometimes the most
traumatizing pieces of our work,and so, just, uh, I want to
(48:52):
especially say thank you to bothof you and uh know that you are
so much in our prayers.
Your ministry and as aPresbytery, we're really glad to
be supportive in the ways thatwe can, and also continue to
grow in our understanding as wemove forward into this new year.
So thank you both so much forbeing part of connecting our
(49:14):
conversations today.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Thanks for reaching out.
Shannon and for thePresbyterian's interest, and
it's nice to have some quietmoments to talk about things
that are often just urgentactions that we're all taking
and to reflect on the largerimpact and context of it.
So appreciate the chance to sitwith Luciano and you about this
.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
No problem.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
Thank you so much, shannon, and we're grateful for
this opportunity.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.