January 27, 2025 • 49 mins
In the fourth episode of the Matthew 25 series, Rev. Dr. Shannan Vance-Ocampo is joined by the PC(USA)'s Rev. Rebecca Barnes, Coordinator of the Presbyterian Hunger Program, and Rev. Dr. Alzono Johnson, Coordinator of the The Presbyterian Committee on the Self-Development of People, for a discussion on one of the main pillars of the Matthew 25 church—Eradicating Systemic Poverty - and the pressing need for communities of faith to drive transformative change.
Together, they explore:
- Preexisting beliefs that alienate and invalidate others' struggles
- Intersectional approaches that drive sustainable change
- The spiritual foundations of community empowerment
- The pivotal role of churches in addressing poverty, including programs like Soul Fire Farm that are tackling hunger, homelessness, and educational barriers
Rev. Dr. Alonzo Johnson provides direction, coordination, strategic and theological vision to the Presbyterian Committee on the Self-Development of People ministry and its commitments to social, racial, and economic justice. He serves as the key liaison between the National Committee on Self-Development of People and the Presbyterian Mission Agency, and he promotes and interprets the ministry of SDOP to congregations, middle governing bodies, and ecumenical & community partners.
Rev. Rebecca Barnes became the Coordinator of the Presbyterian Hunger Program after serving for 5 years as the Associate for Environmental Ministries (within the PHP). Rebecca is a graduate of Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary where she earned a Masters of Divinity and a Masters of Art in Religion in 2011, with a thesis titled: “A Fuller Experience of God’s Grace: How the Sacraments Invite Us to Relationship with, and Care for, the Earth.” While in seminary, she authored “50 Ways to Help Save the Earth: How You and Your Church Can Help Make a Difference,” which was reprinted for distribution to the Commissioners of the 2016 General Assembly of the PC(USA). She also previously served as a young adult intern for PC(USA)’s Health Ministries office and then in the PC(USA) Environmental Ministry program, then staffed Presbyterians for Earth Care and served as the Hunger Action Advocate at San Francisco Theological Seminary.
Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the general presbyterfor the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During the months of Januaryand February of 2025, we are
doing a special eight-partpodcast series on being a
Matthew 25 Presbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical.
I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
(00:50):
resource for the wholePresbytery.
We are a Matthew 25 Presbyteryand so this work is at the heart
of our ministry.
In addition to this podcast,our Presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025.
We'll also focus around variousMatthew 25 themes and offer
resources as well.
(01:11):
This eight-part podcast seriesduring these two months of
January and February willexplore all areas of Matthew 25
ministry, including two specialepisodes one on the history and
the theological why of being aMatthew 25 church and a second
special episode on whatintersectionality is and why it
(01:32):
is at the heart of this ministry.
On today's episode, we will betalking about the Matthew 25
focus on eradicating systemicpoverty and what that means for
us as people of faith.
We'll be talking to theReverend Alonzo Johnson, who
directs our Self-Development ofPeople Initiative, and the
(01:52):
Reverend Rebecca Barnes, whodirects the Presbyterian Hunger
Program.
So I want to welcome Alonzo andRebecca to this program two
longtime colleagues of mine andfriends.
It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, I'm so glad to have you.
So let's start withintroductions.
I want to give each of you achance to just introduce
yourself in whatever way makesbest sense for you, to say a
little bit about who you are andwho you are in ministry.
So, rebecca, we'll start withyou.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Thanks, shannon.
I'm Rebecca Barnes, I use sheand her pronouns.
I coordinate the PresbyterianHunger Program and live in
Louisville, kentucky, so I thinkI'll leave it at that for now,
as we dig deeper into the issues.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, great, and Alonzo tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you, shannon.
I'm Reverend Dr Alonzo Johnson.
I coordinate theself-development of people
ministries for the PresbyterianChurch.
I am located in Atlanta now, soI am working remotely from
Atlanta and excited to be ableto be here and also excited to
be able to engage these issuesthat are really important for
(03:09):
the church.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So did I just give you both like a pay raise via
this podcast?
I called you both directorswhen we got started, so maybe
somebody in Louisville islistening to what I say or
something.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So we'll start with more introductory material.
So tell us about the ministryarea focus you work on, what
your role is in that and sort ofwhat.
The portfolio of work inministry, what happens in
self-development of people, whathappens in the hunger program.
So we'll let you get us startedon this one, alonzo.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Certainly, thank you.
So what I do is I amcoordinator, which provides
direction and coordination and akind of reform, theological
vision to the self-developmentof people ministry.
I'm a key liaison between ournational committee, who are a
group of folks it's a board butit's more of a committee, a
quality committee, and they'remore engaged and we can talk a
(04:06):
little bit about their functionlater on and the Press to
Admission Agency.
I work for the Compassion,peace and Justice area of the
Press to Admission Agency and alot of my work is really
engaging ecumenical partners,engaging our communities,
engaging, more importantly, midcouncils, mid governing bodies
(04:26):
and implementing the strategicvision and direction for the
South development people inpartnership with our national
committee.
A lot of this is really just,very simply, is interpreting and
engaging the work and gettingPresbyterians engaged in the
work of anti-poverty and socialjustice and especially with a
(04:48):
thrust of scripture.
And so, of course, theSelf-Development People ministry
has been.
We've been around since 1970.
We came out of a reallyincredibly turbulent time and a
response to a very turbulentissue of communities of color
being disenfranchised fromeconomic access.
(05:09):
And, of course, 50 some oddyears later, we are still here
doing this work, but improvingon the ways that we are able to
work with partners, and sothat's, in a nutshell, what I do
.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Great and Rebecca tell us about the Hunger Program
.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Similar to Alonzo, I play the role of coordinator,
which helps synergize andsynthesize all the various
facets of the work, all thevarious facets of the work and
our program.
The Presbyterian Hunger Program, has a similar history to
self-development of people ofhaving been around for
(05:52):
generations in the church, ofhelping to live our faith out
into the world.
So the mission of thePresbyterian Hunger Program is
to alleviate hunger and toeliminate root causes of hunger.
So of course that's prettymultifaceted when you think
about why are people hungry.
So that'll include work onclimate change impacts, racial
and gender justice, poverty.
(06:14):
So we work closely withself-development of people and
sibling programs on peacemakingor disaster, but those similar
things like SDOP, of lack ofaccess to fair wages, decent
transportation, lack of accessto education, training
opportunities, working to buildcapacity in leaders and
(06:35):
communities both in the US andaround the world.
So we're grateful to get towork on the intersectional
justice issues that connect ourprograms and connect Christians
to living out our faith in theworld as we feel called.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and let's talk a little bit more deeply about
how the two programs work aroundthis question of eradicating
systemic poverty.
You know for that to be thetitle, the tagline, for one of
the three main pillars ofMatthew 25 ministry.
You know the words eradicateand systemic around the word
poverty.
(07:12):
You know.
So how does that?
You know what do those wordsmean to you?
What does that mean to you?
And you think about Matthew 25,you know how do we go after
things that seem so big to somany people when we talk about
eradicating and systems.
Either one of you?
(07:34):
That's a big question, right.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I'll jump in and then we can talk more, talk more.
But I think what sprang to mymind is we also work a fair
amount with various colleagues,like Reverend Dr Liz C O'Harris
of the Cairo Center and PoorPeople's Campaign, and this
(07:57):
conviction that it isn't enoughto just ameliorate individual
people's situations.
We know that it is importantthat people get fed.
Today we don't want to pretend,like direct food service, for
instance, isn't really important, but that is not going to
change the systems andstructures that we know are
(08:18):
keeping people poor and hungryand oppressed, and so I think it
is a radical vision, which iswhat we're called to have as
Christians, to really thinkabout eradicating.
So I was thinking of Reverend DrLiz Theoharis because of the
book Always With you, where sheflips the notion that the poor
(08:41):
are always with you, that Jesusis quoted as saying is like
somehow we've just come toaccept that that's the way it is
, but that's not actually whatthat scripture meant.
That is not what we're calledto believe.
We do believe that we couldtackle these systems and if we
tackle the systems andstructures and stand together as
people together, that we couldend poverty, end hunger, so that
(09:03):
there is a way forward.
There's the need for the wayforward and we do have some
ability to begin the work.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, I love her ideas around.
You know, we just we've been soculturally conditioned to think
that poverty is just this faitaccompli, right, it's just, it's
never going to change and it'seven just a secular myth it's
not even just a religious mythLike's such a secular myth as
well.
And beyond direct service,there's really not much we can
(09:32):
do.
And also this idea that we haveto do things in this individual
frame individual church has tohave an individual food pantry
or, you know, do individualthings to.
You know, work on somethingspecific in their community
rather than linking arms withothers, which is some of the
(09:54):
work of the Poor People'sCampaign.
Right is building interfaithbridges and ecumenical bridges
and, you know, pulling groupstogether, which is why it's
exciting to see the PCUSA as oneof those initial partners with
that ministry and work right.
So, yeah, I think that's a hugemyth that's out there, that we
have these individual ways ofdealing with poverty and that it
(10:19):
can never be dealt with becauseof that, and that's some of how
it keeps itself alive and howpower keeps it alive, I think.
So I appreciate that importantinsight at the beginning of the
conversation, alonzo, from yourarea of portfolio, I know so
much of what both of you do iscompletely tied up with each
(10:39):
other in ministry.
But words around eradicate andsystems what do those words mean
to you?
Around Matthew 25 in yourministry?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It's really powerful to talk about kind of
eradication.
Sometimes we have used wordslike alleviate, which doesn't
help.
Right, you want to alleviate,you want to get rid of poverty.
But also, I mean, I think, akinto just what Rebecca mentions
in lifting up Liz Thiel Harris'sbook, we talk about the reality
of what does that mean to havethe goal of eradicating poverty?
(11:09):
And that means doing this in away that is not.
I think one thing we've done fora long time in the church is
we've done this in a way that'spaternalistic and also
neocolonial.
And I think one of the ideas oferadicating is actually working
with communities and that'sestablishing relationships with
(11:30):
economically poor communities.
Right, and this is the idea ofempowerment.
Right, self-development ofpeople was created because it
recognizes that we, asPresbyterians, we don't have all
the answers right, and itrecognizes that those who live
in the context of poverty, thosewho feel the sting, those who,
as Thurman says, those whosebacks are against the wall, this
(11:56):
is what eradication of systemsmeans.
It means working with people,it means walking with people, it
means partnering with people,and this is important because we
recognize that poverty is notjust, it's not about pity and
it's not just aboutindividualistic choices, just as
you know, as Rebecca mentioned,but this is about systems that
coalesce.
(12:18):
This is about systems that inmany ways, are closed.
This is about systems thatprevent people from having
access.
I think for Presbyterians, Iwould even venture to say that,
theologically, for us you knowour sacraments, especially
communion, is so key to helpingus understand why we should do
(12:38):
the work Jesus has called us todo to go out and bring good news
to the poor.
We have a God that feeds andprovides us at this table, and
if this particular piece that wehold so dear can become, if we
can put this in the forefront ofour work, then we can start to
see that this is about welcomingpeople to the table so that we
can all be nourished for thefight, nourished for the fight
(13:03):
of freedom.
And I think the idea of when wetalk about eradication, we talk
about access right.
How do we break down some ofthe systemic components that
prevent people from havingaccess to things?
Just really quickly, one of thethings I've noticed is that, as
things become more computerized, it makes it makes it hard to
(13:25):
have access to talk to people,to be able to plead your case.
You have cities that have buslines that don't get to the
right parts of town foremployment.
These are the kinds of thingsaccess.
So this is the systemic piecesthat we need to be in
conversation about, and I thinkit's important to say that when
we say systemic poverty, it'snot some abstraction, right, but
(13:45):
this is actually real.
These are actually componentsthat are coming together and the
systems of itself areintersectional.
You know, it's prison andeducation and the connection,
all these kinds of things.
So when I think about thosethings, I think about the larger
systems that we need todismantle and in order to do
that, we need to learn moreabout them and be to do that, we
need to learn more about themand be in conversation about how
(14:07):
we can address them.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and I noticed that that last piece right is so
hard for us oftentimes asPresbyterians, because we really
, if we're being honest, we'rereally an upper class church,
right, we're a little bit of amiddle class church, but we're
mostly a middle to upper classdenomination, and so a lot of
our folks don't even know how tobe in conversation with someone
who's in a different socialclass, right, and how to
(14:33):
understand what's happening andwhat the barriers are for
someone that's in a verydifferent place.
It's like a whole foreignlanguage, right.
And so part of the work of, forme, of eradicating systemic
poverty, means we have to getpretty far out of our own
comfort zone and buildrelationships and communities
(14:55):
that we never knew were thereand figure out who's really near
us and who's really around us.
And oftentimes it's the peoplethat work for us.
They work for us, but they'reinvisible to us.
We don't see their lives, wedon't see what's going on with
them, and that the reality is sovery different.
(15:16):
And I was listening to anotherpodcast earlier this fall with
the Wetland Cook program atVanderbilt in religion and
justice, and they had aBrazilian theologian on and she
was saying I have to make surethat whatever I write
theologically is somethingpeople in the favelas where I
grew up in Rio can read andunderstand and make sense to
(15:39):
them, and some of them, she said, can't even read the people
that raised me.
So it has to be put together mywork, my theology, in a way
that is completely accessible.
So it becomes a question almostof theological accessibility
and also of how accessible isGod to us, how accessible are we
making ourselves to the work ofthe Spirit?
(15:59):
Right, right, I, she, shetalked about how she had to go
back and she wrote onedissertation for herself for her
theological work.
But then she had to go back andredo it over in a whole
(16:20):
different way because she wantedher mother to be able to know
what she had been doing.
Her ecclesiastical organizationshe was working for here in the
United States wanted out of herwas something her mother would
never be able to access and thatjust was unacceptable for her.
You know our terms.
What's the level of access?
Who are we?
I know that's something SDOPgets out a lot in the grant
(16:41):
making work that you will do,the the partner who I'll try to
make in communities.
I wonder, alonzo, if you wantto talk a little bit about some
of that.
What, what it looks like on theground, some of these SDOP
connections.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Sure, I think the one really powerful thing about
SDOP is that in in creation ofthe program, I think there was a
thought given to what isself-development and, of course,
I'm going to pause usUnderstanding that if people are
(17:24):
going to be confines of allthese particular types of things
and self-development, peopleunderstand, reverend Dr Gabriel
Wilmore, you know BlackPresbyterian who have been
instrumental in a whole bunch ofdifferent types of freedom
causes, but this idea thatpeople act for themselves.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So our grant process is so, for those listening,
we're just splicing some audiotogether because, uh, we lost,
(18:03):
uh, alonzo for a brief momentthere, because something
happened with the internet thatwe'll never know what happened,
which I think we all haveexperienced in our lives.
So we'll kind of go back towhere we were.
So, alonzo, we were asking youabout, or I was asking you about
, you know, this question ofsystemic poverty and the work of
the self-development of peopleand how we get at that, those
(18:27):
systemic areas through the waythat you all do grants and the
way you all connect toparticular ministries.
And you were starting to talk alittle bit about Raymond
Gaylord and some of his work.
So that's about where we were,if we can kind of go back in
time about 10 minutes ago.
So I'll let you pick up whereyou were.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Oh, no sure That'd be great.
And I mentioned Reverend DrGibral Willmore as a kind of a
brainchild for theself-development of people,
recognizing that if we're goingto address the issues of
oppression and injustice,especially as they appear as
economic, this is going to haveto be something that's done
(19:09):
within communities.
So, self-development of people,the idea really came out of
people acting for themselves.
It was kind of a third way.
Right, we had protests and thenwe had Arlinski and planning
and these kinds of things.
But then there's also thisother way how do communities
themselves be in control oftheir own projects?
(19:29):
I mean, because communitieshave been fighting and they bear
witness to their own strugglesand they also witnessed the
injustices that they havesuffered.
So this idea of self-developmentof people, our grants were
designed for communities whoonly control their own projects,
and so it moves away from twothings One, paternalism, right,
(19:50):
feeling like we need to tellpeople what they need.
The other piece it moves awayfrom is neocolonialism or
colonialism, this idea that weget to determine what is right
for people.
And I think one of the thingsabout self-development of people
is that our grant system hasbeen set up to lift up those you
know to say hey, youcommunities who are in charge of
(20:13):
your projects, you are the oneswho are directly affected.
We want to hear from you and wewant to walk with you and we
want to learn from you and wewant to be able to take part in
addressing oppression andinjustice together, and
especially as we look at thekind of intersections of what we
(20:34):
call systemic poverty, right,there are so many aspects of
being able of not having access,so many access, so many aspects
of oppression, the.
You know how these particularsystems work together and are
combined right.
The lack of transportationsomewhere, you know, combined
with.
(20:54):
You know the lack of unionizing, say at an employment place,
you know, where people get firedbecause they can't get there on
time because of the buses,right?
So communities know how tonavigate these issues.
They live with these issues,and so that self-development is
about communities moving forwardand addressing those issues,
and so that self-development isabout communities moving forward
and addressing those issues.
And we have so many communitiesthat are doing incredible work
(21:17):
the church can learn a lot aboutthis, and especially being
engaged in the fight.
So our grants are reallydesigned to complement and
partner with organizations whoare doing these amazing things
right.
It's not this presuppositionthat we are going to help them
do something.
It is understanding that ourcommunities know what to do,
(21:40):
they know how to address thestruggles, they know how to lick
oppression, and some of themjust may need a little more
funding or more resources to doso or, in our case, partnerships
.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, and that idea of putting in inputs into
communities, but inputs thataren't paternalistic right,
there are these partnershipinputs and the community is at
the decision point about whatthey need.
We're not here to say we'regoing to give you this money,
but we think you should changepoints three, four and five on
your strategic plan, right?
It's just, it's the money.
(22:17):
And you know, one of the thingsI think of when I think of
colonialism is extraction.
Right, colonialism is all aboutextracting from places all
sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, People resources.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
you know, extracting from the earth, extracting from
communities, extracting frompeople's lives and this is not
about extracting anything.
It's all about input, but inputthat's also really dignified
input and input that's driven bythe people that are looking for
(22:51):
it.
So we're not even trying to doany extraction on their spirit
or their soul.
We're trying to really affirmthe gifts that God has given
them and the intelligence Godhas given them of what they know
they need.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Right, listen right.
The first act of love islistening right, listening to
communities too, and that'ssomething that you know you
mentioned earlier, shannon.
You know, sometimes ourchurches, we become a little
more elitist than we need to be,and when that happens, we're
not listening Right, and that'sthe key.
You know how do we listen, andlisten with not, you know,
(23:26):
listen in a more conceptual waytoo, by making space, and I
think that, and I do think thatthere are churches that are
doing a lot of that, you know,and what do we have to learn
from them?
But also, importantly, you know, in listening, what do we learn
from our communities, who aremost impacted by these things?
So, yes, you're absolutelyright in that way.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, thank you , rebecca.
Talk to us a little bit aboutyour grants and how you all are
doing inputs and interventionsin the hunger program as well.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Sure, I want to say that that listening to
communities and really believingthat they are the architects of
the future.
We need that.
So hunger program andself-development of people to
together have lots of the sameprinciples, core values.
We work together a lot and dothings fairly similarly, even
(24:19):
with different foci, and I thinkpart of it is understanding
that systemic poverty is restingon systems that are human built
.
It's our mistaken or misguidedor evil past philosophies,
beliefs and policies that havebuilt this system.
(24:40):
So it's something to grieve andlament and confess.
It's also something tocelebrate that these systems
aren't eternal.
Systems aren't eternal and sowe can dismantle them because it
was people who built them.
So these communities that weget to walk alongside, the
people that we listen to and thegrant recipients of these
(25:06):
programs are the ones who arecasting another vision and
building different systems thatcould create a world where
poverty is eradicated and wherepeople have all that they need,
both domestic andinternationally, working on
advocacy campaigns to changepolicies that are keeping these
(25:37):
systems in place.
We're working on somedevelopment projects to build
livelihoods and capacity andleaders, but also to work on
food.
Sovereignty is one area that theHunger Program has focused in
on food justice and foodsovereignty, where we're asking
the question of not just wheredo people have access to food,
(26:01):
but do they have access to land,to seeds, to subsidies, to
policy support, to be familyfarmers or new farmers?
So our grants kind of cover thewhole waterfront of communities
(26:22):
that are addressing variousroot causes of hunger and that
will include working on climatechange issues and advocacy,
because a lot of folks arefinding that agriculture is
harder and harder from droughtsand floods and hurricanes and
the whole gamut of climatecaused disasters is making
(26:43):
hunger worse and war and violentconflict is making hunger worse
and so our grants will gotowards some of those root
causes and intersectionaljustice issues.
So Presbyterians a long timeago decided you know our
churches are really good placesin local communities to do that
(27:05):
direct food relief.
So churches are great atbackpack programs and food
pantries and those things areneeded to feed people today at
backpack programs and foodpantries and those things are
needed to feed people today.
But there tend to be some localmoney, community foundation or
regional support for thosethings and when we want to talk
about ending systemic povertyand structural issues that cause
(27:26):
hunger, the hunger program wasreally created to use the
generosity of Presbyterians toget at those root causes and do
advocacy and campaign issues.
So usually now hunger programdoes a little over a million
dollars spread out between 20 to25 different countries,
(27:48):
including the US, and that'susually about a hundred grantee
partners all kind of doingdifferent things, including the
US, and that's usually about 100grantee partners all kind of
doing different things.
Community solutions the mainareas that we've identified that
our grants could sort of beframed or grouped in are
providing more and better food,of course, but also solidarity
(28:12):
campaigns with people andcommunities, so that advocacy
walking alongside solidarity anda livable environment, so
creating access to healthy,clean, safe spaces as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right, Right.
Yeah, You're reminding me ofone of my favorite projects,
which is just down the road fromme, which is Soul Fire Farm.
Right, space and farmland forcommunities of color and weaving
in Afro-Indigenous practices,rehabilitating and healing the
(28:57):
land while feeding people andalso scaling up and growing next
generations of farmers.
I mean they're really doing iton all the different angles, but
then also teaching in the localcommunity and doing direct
service as well, teaching localpeople here in the cities of
(29:20):
Troy and Albany how to havetheir own small backyard garden
as well and do some of their ownfeeding of themselves.
They really are trying to goafter all the different angles
related to the food system andjustice.
It's really become andblossomed into such an
incredible piece of work whatthey're doing.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
One of the things that Soul Fire Farm has taught
me is, while tree planting isreally important and great,
there's also lots of other waysto capture carbon emissions, and
one of them is throughagricultural practices.
They have what they callsilvopasture, and they're one of
the tree grants this year, andlast year is for some other
agricultural processes that areknown to capture carbon.
So again, it's thatintersectional work where
they're tackling racial justiceand generational poverty and
(30:17):
land access, but also, meanwhile, fighting climate change and
working to build this beautifulfuture we all want.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, and also so many of us that get the chance
to be near them and do a littlebit of volunteer work where it's
appropriate.
Like I recognize, I'm a whiteperson and so most of the land
that they're working on and mostof the community they're
creating is not for me and I'monly there when I'm invited
right, and that's okay too.
And being okay with that, youknow, being okay with it's not
(30:47):
all about me, it's not all aboutwhen I want to show up or um,
but the times I have been ableto be there and the times I have
been able to integrate.
When the community says whatthey need, um, and community
says what they want to do, umcan be very powerful as well.
Um, but it's not at mydirection, it's not even at
(31:07):
whatever I'm interested in, um.
I have to wait and be invitedand be able to come in that area
of partnership and that's, Ithink, an important ministry
lesson for all of us.
So it's been a huge gain overthe last 11 years being just
down the road from them andbeing able to watch but also
(31:28):
learn and grow on my own as well.
It's been.
It's a really interestingproject.
So we'll put that in the shownotes.
It's always one of the things Ilove to talk about.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I do want to speak about that too, because I think
Leah Penniman in the bookFarming While Black I think you
make some really good, shannon.
It's good, it's so good topoint out the racism of food
systems, but also you know howit connects to employment and
these kinds of things.
One of the things I love aboutSoul Fire Farm is that they do
(31:59):
acknowledge that for a long timethat black people were, you
know, had large agriculturalpractices that were taken away
from by the government.
That were taken away from bythe government, yes, basically,
and they acknowledge the andthis is the systemic piece that
I think Leah Penniman and folksat Soul Fire Farm get to.
When you talk about race andthese kinds of things land being
(32:20):
taken away from people, right,land being, you know, land and
practices it makes me think alot about some of the work in
eco-womanism, right, this ideathat we understand that there
are some connections witheco-womanism, right, this idea
that we understand that thereare some connections with
eco-memory, right.
And I think Soul Fire Farm getsat this idea of you know the
fact that Black people weretending the land.
(32:41):
Black people did own land andthis was subsistence right, and
so when I think about that.
I think about there is severalSDOP-funded programs that
actually do these kinds ofthings too, that they
acknowledge that this that thispractice has is
(33:02):
multidisciplinary.
And when I say that means it'sacknowledgement of the land,
it's addressing food systems,but it's also it's creating a
labor possibilities.
It's creating possibilities forto have a skill.
You know there's somethingcalled Strength to Love in
Baltimore, which is a communitygarden.
It's designed and created byformerly incarcerated folks and
(33:26):
the idea is, you know, as wetalk about these systems that
close people out, right, we havelaws in this country that
basically says if you've beenincarcerated, you can't work
here or there, you don't haveaccess to work here or there.
And what these folks found?
Two things.
One, this kind of eco-memory.
Right, they found this placewhere they can actually do the
work of subsistence, they canembrace this idea of discipline
(33:48):
and life creation, at the sametime learning transferable
skills that will allow them tobe able to live lives of
self-determination.
So I think Soul Fire Farm issuch a good example of the kinds
of things and innovative thingsthat have been different and
how we understand projects.
(34:08):
And Soul Fire Farm is a good ofthe the innovation and
ingenuity of folks to say thathere's another way, right, and
so thank you for lifting them up.
And uh, and because I see in inboth the hunger program and
sdop, we see, so we have so manyprograms that are very similar
rather than doing the similarkind of work.
(34:28):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's really helpful and it's also a space where the
Holy Spirit shows up, you know,where we God does something new
and unexpected in our lives andin the lives of other people,
and we don't even know thejourney we're about to be taken
on.
And the Spirit is alive andit's an opportunity for us to
(34:51):
tap into places that we maybehaven't paid attention to God's
activity in the world or in ourlives, or in the future, or in
the past or the present, and Ithink that those things really
do come up and come out of thoseplaces.
And so these are also placesfor aliveness of the spirit and
(35:14):
people have an opportunity forthat ongoing work of
discipleship building, personaland corporate, that we all are
in need of these days, Very muchso.
I'm so appreciative of thisconversation.
I want to close up with aquestion.
I stole this from anotherpodcast I like to listen to.
(35:35):
The podcast is called Outrageand Optimism and they ask their
guests as they close up tell mesomething that outrages you and
tell you something that makesyou optimistic and sort of I
think the frustrating way ofasking that is like so where's
total depravity still messing usup or frustrating you, and
what's happening with the HolySpirit.
Like.
(35:57):
You know what's God beckoningus towards, and so I'm curious
if each of you would be up forsharing with us.
You know, however, you want touse those frames as we close up
in your ministry and in yourwork.
Whoever wants to go is fine byme.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I think it's easy to feel outraged at all of the
things happening on all of thefronts that seem so horrific
right now, from reading newsabout global wars and conflicts
to reading domestic news, stillabout police violence and
(36:40):
incarceration, to just ongoingsuffering and I forgot to
mention earlier but just theradical lack of enough
affordable housing.
So seeing folks who arehomeless or without housing
security in some form or fashion, I think it can make me really
(37:05):
outraged, because I think thechurch is called to provide home
for people, spiritual as wellas physical.
But then I do think the HolySpirit is moving.
So one thing I forgot tomention earlier is the beautiful
sign of Presbyterians and otherpeople of faith joining
together in congregation basedcommunity organizing, cbcos.
(37:30):
So that's something I've gottento learn about through the
Hunger Program and othercolleagues, and I think the Holy
Spirit is moving in thoseplaces.
It's long hard work, it'scampaign work, it's policy, it's
local work, but it's a realtestament because people are
making these small wins uponwhich they can build each year,
(37:54):
and I think that's what it'sabout, whether these community
groups like Soul Fire Farm orCBCOs or what churches are doing
all over.
But it may just be this onething that this one group can do
in this one place, but we'reall doing it together.
So when you really start tostep back and look at all these
(38:16):
grantee partners, all theseprograms, all these churches,
all of this good, good work,that's the Holy Spirit for me.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Amen to that, rebecca , I think.
For me, I'm outraged about theperceived invisibility of the
poor right, this idea that andwe use mythological language to
call them working class rightAspiring to be something and not
and when this happens, weignore, we mask the struggle,
(38:49):
right, we don't look at thecomplex movements of systems
that we just talked about, right, or we consign poverty to
personal failings.
And this is what really makesme angry is that when there's an
invisibility about the poor ofthe poor, either they don't
exist or they exist because it'stheir own fault and the
mythology that's built around it.
They just can't get it right.
(39:11):
And what that does is that justalienates.
It alienates humans who arestruggling, alienates children
who are not even food, right, italienates folks who are living
in the struggle, whether it behomelessness or whether it be
mass incarceration or whether itbe joblessness or whether it be
.
And things that we haven'ttalked about today is how mental
(39:35):
health and access to healthcare affect people.
So this perceived invisibilityof the poor also invalidates
their struggle, right, itinvalidates the struggle that
people have.
What is it 140 million peoplein our country that we
invalidate their struggle, right, I think.
But what I'm optimistic andwhere I see the Holy Spirit is
(39:57):
really in the gift of the church.
Right, I see, I see it inPresbyterian ministries and
churches who are engaging thisstruggle.
Right, I think about you know,I mean just a few, just just in
thinking about churches who aredoing this.
I think about Berea andPresbyterian Church in
(40:18):
Philadelphia, who has thisincredible food program and,
yeah, you know it's a mercyprogram, but it also recognizes
the great hunger in thiscommunity and basically have
decided that we are going toaddress hunger but we're also
going to be a friend to thepeople who are poor and we're
going to acknowledge theirpresence in this community.
I think about FirstPresbyterian Church here in
(40:44):
Atlanta.
Some years ago I talked toReverend Tony Sundermeyer and
they have a program whichaddresses issues of homelessness
and one of the innovativethings that I liked about it was
that homeless folks can use thechurch as an address so that
they can get mail, they can getthe kind of they can be human
right.
Well, I think about, you know,one of the churches, one or two
(41:06):
churches in Louisville as whereyou know where our headquarters
exists, and I think aboutBeachmont Presbyterian Church,
who's doing amazing work throughsomething called La Esquilita,
the little school where theyrecognize that you know,
undocumented students andstudents who are, you know, who
have language barriers, can comeand learn and be able to master
(41:30):
some of the technologies neededto do schoolwork.
Or Central Presbyterian Churchin Louisville, who's also doing
another food program andacknowledging the fact that we
need to engage with ourneighbors.
I think these are reallyimportant things, and so I'm
inspired, I think, about theHoly Spirit moving in these
churches.
And here's the thing this isnot new to us.
(41:54):
This is Jesus telling us totake this ministry out into the
poor.
We have policy statements thatPresbyterians before us have
worked on for many years,addressing situations of the
poor and how we need to engage,at least, and how we need to
engage the powers, to use WalterWink's language Right.
(42:15):
And then, just as you know,just as Rebecca mentioned, we
have an Office of Public Witnessfor advocacy.
So for anybody in thePresbyterian Church to say, hey,
we don't have the avenues andthe vehicles to do this, they're
all around us and this is whatit's like we talk about.
What does it mean to bePresbyterian?
And one of the things thatattracted me as a kid being
Presbyterian.
My mentor said to me, we'reabout education and justice, and
(42:36):
those are the things that drewme so when I think about the
work of SDOP, the work of uniquecommunities, letting us know
what it is we need to do.
We have more than enoughresource-wise, we have more than
enough theologically, and wehave more than enough in
community to be able to addresspoverty.
(42:57):
You know Rebecca's absolutelyright we are the richest country
in the world.
We have more than enough, andso how do we make that work?
How do we come together?
How do we, as Peter Block says,how do we invite people into
this work?
What's going to be a form ofinvitation?
As we invite people to thecommunion table, invite them to
(43:18):
the baptismal font, how do weinvite people into the things of
God right, the fullness and theabundance of God?
Which is language that's so,it's Holy Spirit language that's
contra, the language ofscarcity right.
And so these are the kinds ofthings I think that make me
excited is when I see churchesengaging, questioning,
(43:42):
innovating and recognizing thatthey have been blessed with so
much, and too much is given.
Much expected, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
yeah, thank you, alonzo.
You know you're reminding me.
Also, we're recording thispodcast in the first week or so
of October and folks won't hearthis until the new year, but
we're recording it while we'rein the midst of these terrible
two weeks around HurricaneHelene and now Hurricane Milton
that last night just slicedthrough Florida.
And my parents live in BlackMountain, north Carolina, so of
(44:12):
course they're in one of thesehard hit communities and go to
the Presbyterian Church thereand they've been in this process
.
The Black Mountain Church, likelots of churches have been.
You know, over the last coupleof years or whenever in the life
of their church, they've beendoing some renovations on the
building and those renovationshave come in very, very in
extremely helpful ways latelythe upgrades they made to their
(44:35):
Christian Ed wing, the upgradesto the sanctuary.
Their space has become such aministry output area to feed
their community after thishorrific natural disaster in the
last 10 days.
But they have this line on thefront of their communion table
and it's a question.
It says has everyone been fed,has everyone been fed?
And they were trying to figureout they were doing, I think,
(44:57):
also very Presbyterian things anew building project, a
strategic plan.
You know very Presbyterianthings and didn't know how God
was going to necessarily usethese things.
You hate to have these thingsused, or God to show you what
you were up to through somethinglike this.
But their pastor has writtenand preached on this.
Her first sermon, back afterthe hurricane, said I didn't
(45:22):
know what we were going to dowith these words on the
communion table.
We were talking about doingsomething different.
We didn't know.
But look at what God has shownus.
This question of has everyonebeen fed?
And it's not just directservice right after the
hurricane, making sure peoplewho really have lost everything
right at this moment get fed,that's a immediate thing.
But have people been fed inmind, in heart, in spirit, in
(45:47):
soul, are they being seen?
Being fed is so many differentthings.
It's not just that physicalfood.
And also, are we going to beable to feed people as we go
forward?
And I was talking to my parentslast night on the phone and my
mom was telling me that there'sa Methodist church in town that
has been doing nothing sincethis hurricane.
(46:08):
They're like just not, theirdoors aren't open, they've like
just disappeared, like gone.
And I said to my parents lastnight.
I said you know what.
They've made their choicethey're going to die.
That church is going to die.
And people are going to noticein the community who is feeding
people, which churches, whichcommunities are showing up and
it's not just the Presbyteriansin that community.
(46:28):
Lots of folks are showing up inlots of ways.
People are going to noticewho's showing up, who's there
for them in a crisis, but alsofor the long haul, and that's
where people's energy is goingto go.
And churches that make thechoice not to show up and not to
feed in any way, they're notgoing to make it, and that's a
choice.
But it's also a choice of wherewe align ourselves with the
(46:51):
spirit and where God is takingus.
And so we were just talkingabout this on the phone last
night, about, you know, they'rejust noticing the choices of
different faith communitiesafter this natural disaster, and
I said, yeah, they will.
These choices will showthemselves for years to come.
This ministry, these ministries, will show themselves for years
to come.
This is what will happen, andyou know they're in the early,
(47:14):
first, hard days of all of this.
But decisions are being made,and those decisions how we show
up, how we address poverty whenit's systemic and when it comes
at you like a freight train likethis, it gets seen in
communities us really mad.
They can make us reallyoptimistic too about how God's
(47:35):
people get activated andre-engaged in ministry.
So I think there's just a lotgoing on in all of these pieces
and weaving together.
So I'm so grateful to both ofyou for the ministry that you do
and the ways you show up in thelife of ministry, for being
co-laborers in the PresbyterianChurch with all of us, and we're
(47:59):
glad we get to share a littlebit more about both of these
ministries in our podcast.
Come anytime and visit us in thePresbytery, and I know I didn't
say it earlier, but RachelWhite, who is the spouse of one
of our pastors, kevin White,just joined Alonzo, your
national committee, and sohopefully we can use that as a
way to get your nationalcommittee to come have a meeting
(48:20):
in our bounds.
We'd love to host you allanytime and as well as the
hunger program, you're always sowelcome and I'm thinking about
ways we continue to be be thechurch, so thank you for being
with us.
We'll put all the resources wetalked about in the podcast
notes that will go out with thispodcast, and thank you both for
what you do, being ambassadorsof Matthew 25.
(48:40):
I know both of you as longtimefriends and colleagues and know
that this is your heart's work.
Discipleship, loving God,loving creation, is at the core
of who both of you are.
So thank you so much and thankyou for being part of connecting
our conversations.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
And thank you for being part of connecting our
conversations.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us.
It's been an honor and apleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Thank you.
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the general presbyterfor the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During the months of Januaryand February of 2025, we are
doing a special eight-partpodcast series on being a
Matthew 25 Presbytery.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical.
I wanted to leave somethingbehind that would be a ministry
(00:50):
resource for the wholePresbytery.
We are a Matthew 25 Presbyteryand so this work is at the heart
of our ministry.
In addition to this podcast,our Presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025.
We'll also focus around variousMatthew 25 themes and offer
resources as well.
(01:11):
This eight-part podcast seriesduring these two months of
January and February willexplore all areas of Matthew 25
ministry, including two specialepisodes one on the history and
the theological why of being aMatthew 25 church and a second
special episode on whatintersectionality is and why it
(01:32):
is at the heart of this ministry.
On today's episode, we will betalking about the Matthew 25
focus on eradicating systemicpoverty and what that means for
us as people of faith.
We'll be talking to theReverend Alonzo Johnson, who
directs our Self-Development ofPeople Initiative, and the
(01:52):
Reverend Rebecca Barnes, whodirects the Presbyterian Hunger
Program.
So I want to welcome Alonzo andRebecca to this program two
longtime colleagues of mine andfriends.
It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, I'm so glad to have you.
So let's start withintroductions.
I want to give each of you achance to just introduce
yourself in whatever way makesbest sense for you, to say a
little bit about who you are andwho you are in ministry.
So, rebecca, we'll start withyou.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Thanks, shannon.
I'm Rebecca Barnes, I use sheand her pronouns.
I coordinate the PresbyterianHunger Program and live in
Louisville, kentucky, so I thinkI'll leave it at that for now,
as we dig deeper into the issues.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, great, and Alonzo tell us about you.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Thank you, shannon.
I'm Reverend Dr Alonzo Johnson.
I coordinate theself-development of people
ministries for the PresbyterianChurch.
I am located in Atlanta now, soI am working remotely from
Atlanta and excited to be ableto be here and also excited to
be able to engage these issuesthat are really important for
(03:09):
the church.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So did I just give you both like a pay raise via
this podcast?
I called you both directorswhen we got started, so maybe
somebody in Louisville islistening to what I say or
something.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
So we'll start with more introductory material.
So tell us about the ministryarea focus you work on, what
your role is in that and sort ofwhat.
The portfolio of work inministry, what happens in
self-development of people, whathappens in the hunger program.
So we'll let you get us startedon this one, alonzo.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Certainly, thank you.
So what I do is I amcoordinator, which provides
direction and coordination and akind of reform, theological
vision to the self-developmentof people ministry.
I'm a key liaison between ournational committee, who are a
group of folks it's a board butit's more of a committee, a
quality committee, and they'remore engaged and we can talk a
(04:06):
little bit about their functionlater on and the Press to
Admission Agency.
I work for the Compassion,peace and Justice area of the
Press to Admission Agency and alot of my work is really
engaging ecumenical partners,engaging our communities,
engaging, more importantly, midcouncils, mid governing bodies
(04:26):
and implementing the strategicvision and direction for the
South development people inpartnership with our national
committee.
A lot of this is really just,very simply, is interpreting and
engaging the work and gettingPresbyterians engaged in the
work of anti-poverty and socialjustice and especially with a
(04:48):
thrust of scripture.
And so, of course, theSelf-Development People ministry
has been.
We've been around since 1970.
We came out of a reallyincredibly turbulent time and a
response to a very turbulentissue of communities of color
being disenfranchised fromeconomic access.
(05:09):
And, of course, 50 some oddyears later, we are still here
doing this work, but improvingon the ways that we are able to
work with partners, and sothat's, in a nutshell, what I do
.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Great and Rebecca tell us about the Hunger Program
.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Similar to Alonzo, I play the role of coordinator,
which helps synergize andsynthesize all the various
facets of the work, all thevarious facets of the work and
our program.
The Presbyterian Hunger Program, has a similar history to
self-development of people ofhaving been around for
(05:52):
generations in the church, ofhelping to live our faith out
into the world.
So the mission of thePresbyterian Hunger Program is
to alleviate hunger and toeliminate root causes of hunger.
So of course that's prettymultifaceted when you think
about why are people hungry.
So that'll include work onclimate change impacts, racial
and gender justice, poverty.
(06:14):
So we work closely withself-development of people and
sibling programs on peacemakingor disaster, but those similar
things like SDOP, of lack ofaccess to fair wages, decent
transportation, lack of accessto education, training
opportunities, working to buildcapacity in leaders and
(06:35):
communities both in the US andaround the world.
So we're grateful to get towork on the intersectional
justice issues that connect ourprograms and connect Christians
to living out our faith in theworld as we feel called.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and let's talk a little bit more deeply about
how the two programs work aroundthis question of eradicating
systemic poverty.
You know for that to be thetitle, the tagline, for one of
the three main pillars ofMatthew 25 ministry.
You know the words eradicateand systemic around the word
poverty.
(07:12):
You know.
So how does that?
You know what do those wordsmean to you?
What does that mean to you?
And you think about Matthew 25,you know how do we go after
things that seem so big to somany people when we talk about
eradicating and systems.
Either one of you?
(07:34):
That's a big question, right.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I'll jump in and then we can talk more, talk more.
But I think what sprang to mymind is we also work a fair
amount with various colleagues,like Reverend Dr Liz C O'Harris
of the Cairo Center and PoorPeople's Campaign, and this
(07:57):
conviction that it isn't enoughto just ameliorate individual
people's situations.
We know that it is importantthat people get fed.
Today we don't want to pretend,like direct food service, for
instance, isn't really important, but that is not going to
change the systems andstructures that we know are
(08:18):
keeping people poor and hungryand oppressed, and so I think it
is a radical vision, which iswhat we're called to have as
Christians, to really thinkabout eradicating.
So I was thinking of Reverend DrLiz Theoharis because of the
book Always With you, where sheflips the notion that the poor
(08:41):
are always with you, that Jesusis quoted as saying is like
somehow we've just come toaccept that that's the way it is
, but that's not actually whatthat scripture meant.
That is not what we're calledto believe.
We do believe that we couldtackle these systems and if we
tackle the systems andstructures and stand together as
people together, that we couldend poverty, end hunger, so that
(09:03):
there is a way forward.
There's the need for the wayforward and we do have some
ability to begin the work.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, I love her ideas around.
You know, we just we've been soculturally conditioned to think
that poverty is just this faitaccompli, right, it's just, it's
never going to change and it'seven just a secular myth it's
not even just a religious mythLike's such a secular myth as
well.
And beyond direct service,there's really not much we can
(09:32):
do.
And also this idea that we haveto do things in this individual
frame individual church has tohave an individual food pantry
or, you know, do individualthings to.
You know, work on somethingspecific in their community
rather than linking arms withothers, which is some of the
(09:54):
work of the Poor People'sCampaign.
Right is building interfaithbridges and ecumenical bridges
and, you know, pulling groupstogether, which is why it's
exciting to see the PCUSA as oneof those initial partners with
that ministry and work right.
So, yeah, I think that's a hugemyth that's out there, that we
have these individual ways ofdealing with poverty and that it
(10:19):
can never be dealt with becauseof that, and that's some of how
it keeps itself alive and howpower keeps it alive, I think.
So I appreciate that importantinsight at the beginning of the
conversation, alonzo, from yourarea of portfolio, I know so
much of what both of you do iscompletely tied up with each
(10:39):
other in ministry.
But words around eradicate andsystems what do those words mean
to you?
Around Matthew 25 in yourministry?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
It's really powerful to talk about kind of
eradication.
Sometimes we have used wordslike alleviate, which doesn't
help.
Right, you want to alleviate,you want to get rid of poverty.
But also, I mean, I think, akinto just what Rebecca mentions
in lifting up Liz Thiel Harris'sbook, we talk about the reality
of what does that mean to havethe goal of eradicating poverty?
(11:09):
And that means doing this in away that is not.
I think one thing we've done fora long time in the church is
we've done this in a way that'spaternalistic and also
neocolonial.
And I think one of the ideas oferadicating is actually working
with communities and that'sestablishing relationships with
(11:30):
economically poor communities.
Right, and this is the idea ofempowerment.
Right, self-development ofpeople was created because it
recognizes that we, asPresbyterians, we don't have all
the answers right, and itrecognizes that those who live
in the context of poverty, thosewho feel the sting, those who,
as Thurman says, those whosebacks are against the wall, this
(11:56):
is what eradication of systemsmeans.
It means working with people,it means walking with people, it
means partnering with people,and this is important because we
recognize that poverty is notjust, it's not about pity and
it's not just aboutindividualistic choices, just as
you know, as Rebecca mentioned,but this is about systems that
coalesce.
(12:18):
This is about systems that inmany ways, are closed.
This is about systems thatprevent people from having
access.
I think for Presbyterians, Iwould even venture to say that,
theologically, for us you knowour sacraments, especially
communion, is so key to helpingus understand why we should do
(12:38):
the work Jesus has called us todo to go out and bring good news
to the poor.
We have a God that feeds andprovides us at this table, and
if this particular piece that wehold so dear can become, if we
can put this in the forefront ofour work, then we can start to
see that this is about welcomingpeople to the table so that we
can all be nourished for thefight, nourished for the fight
(13:03):
of freedom.
And I think the idea of when wetalk about eradication, we talk
about access right.
How do we break down some ofthe systemic components that
prevent people from havingaccess to things?
Just really quickly, one of thethings I've noticed is that, as
things become more computerized, it makes it makes it hard to
(13:25):
have access to talk to people,to be able to plead your case.
You have cities that have buslines that don't get to the
right parts of town foremployment.
These are the kinds of thingsaccess.
So this is the systemic piecesthat we need to be in
conversation about, and I thinkit's important to say that when
we say systemic poverty, it'snot some abstraction, right, but
(13:45):
this is actually real.
These are actually componentsthat are coming together and the
systems of itself areintersectional.
You know, it's prison andeducation and the connection,
all these kinds of things.
So when I think about thosethings, I think about the larger
systems that we need todismantle and in order to do
that, we need to learn moreabout them and be to do that, we
need to learn more about themand be in conversation about how
(14:07):
we can address them.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, and I noticed that that last piece right is so
hard for us oftentimes asPresbyterians, because we really
, if we're being honest, we'rereally an upper class church,
right, we're a little bit of amiddle class church, but we're
mostly a middle to upper classdenomination, and so a lot of
our folks don't even know how tobe in conversation with someone
who's in a different socialclass, right, and how to
(14:33):
understand what's happening andwhat the barriers are for
someone that's in a verydifferent place.
It's like a whole foreignlanguage, right.
And so part of the work of, forme, of eradicating systemic
poverty, means we have to getpretty far out of our own
comfort zone and buildrelationships and communities
(14:55):
that we never knew were thereand figure out who's really near
us and who's really around us.
And oftentimes it's the peoplethat work for us.
They work for us, but they'reinvisible to us.
We don't see their lives, wedon't see what's going on with
them, and that the reality is sovery different.
(15:16):
And I was listening to anotherpodcast earlier this fall with
the Wetland Cook program atVanderbilt in religion and
justice, and they had aBrazilian theologian on and she
was saying I have to make surethat whatever I write
theologically is somethingpeople in the favelas where I
grew up in Rio can read andunderstand and make sense to
(15:39):
them, and some of them, she said, can't even read the people
that raised me.
So it has to be put together mywork, my theology, in a way
that is completely accessible.
So it becomes a question almostof theological accessibility
and also of how accessible isGod to us, how accessible are we
making ourselves to the work ofthe Spirit?
(15:59):
Right, right, I, she, shetalked about how she had to go
back and she wrote onedissertation for herself for her
theological work.
But then she had to go back andredo it over in a whole
(16:20):
different way because she wantedher mother to be able to know
what she had been doing.
Her ecclesiastical organizationshe was working for here in the
United States wanted out of herwas something her mother would
never be able to access and thatjust was unacceptable for her.
You know our terms.
What's the level of access?
Who are we?
I know that's something SDOPgets out a lot in the grant
(16:41):
making work that you will do,the the partner who I'll try to
make in communities.
I wonder, alonzo, if you wantto talk a little bit about some
of that.
What, what it looks like on theground, some of these SDOP
connections.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Sure, I think the one really powerful thing about
SDOP is that in in creation ofthe program, I think there was a
thought given to what isself-development and, of course,
I'm going to pause usUnderstanding that if people are
(17:24):
going to be confines of allthese particular types of things
and self-development, peopleunderstand, reverend Dr Gabriel
Wilmore, you know BlackPresbyterian who have been
instrumental in a whole bunch ofdifferent types of freedom
causes, but this idea thatpeople act for themselves.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
So our grant process is so, for those listening,
we're just splicing some audiotogether because, uh, we lost,
(18:03):
uh, alonzo for a brief momentthere, because something
happened with the internet thatwe'll never know what happened,
which I think we all haveexperienced in our lives.
So we'll kind of go back towhere we were.
So, alonzo, we were asking youabout, or I was asking you about
, you know, this question ofsystemic poverty and the work of
the self-development of peopleand how we get at that, those
(18:27):
systemic areas through the waythat you all do grants and the
way you all connect toparticular ministries.
And you were starting to talk alittle bit about Raymond
Gaylord and some of his work.
So that's about where we were,if we can kind of go back in
time about 10 minutes ago.
So I'll let you pick up whereyou were.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Oh, no sure That'd be great.
And I mentioned Reverend DrGibral Willmore as a kind of a
brainchild for theself-development of people,
recognizing that if we're goingto address the issues of
oppression and injustice,especially as they appear as
economic, this is going to haveto be something that's done
(19:09):
within communities.
So, self-development of people,the idea really came out of
people acting for themselves.
It was kind of a third way.
Right, we had protests and thenwe had Arlinski and planning
and these kinds of things.
But then there's also thisother way how do communities
themselves be in control oftheir own projects?
(19:29):
I mean, because communitieshave been fighting and they bear
witness to their own strugglesand they also witnessed the
injustices that they havesuffered.
So this idea of self-developmentof people, our grants were
designed for communities whoonly control their own projects,
and so it moves away from twothings One, paternalism, right,
(19:50):
feeling like we need to tellpeople what they need.
The other piece it moves awayfrom is neocolonialism or
colonialism, this idea that weget to determine what is right
for people.
And I think one of the thingsabout self-development of people
is that our grant system hasbeen set up to lift up those you
know to say hey, youcommunities who are in charge of
(20:13):
your projects, you are the oneswho are directly affected.
We want to hear from you and wewant to walk with you and we
want to learn from you and wewant to be able to take part in
addressing oppression andinjustice together, and
especially as we look at thekind of intersections of what we
(20:34):
call systemic poverty, right,there are so many aspects of
being able of not having access,so many access, so many aspects
of oppression, the.
You know how these particularsystems work together and are
combined right.
The lack of transportationsomewhere, you know, combined
with.
(20:54):
You know the lack of unionizing, say at an employment place,
you know, where people get firedbecause they can't get there on
time because of the buses,right?
So communities know how tonavigate these issues.
They live with these issues,and so that self-development is
about communities moving forwardand addressing those issues,
and so that self-development isabout communities moving forward
and addressing those issues.
And we have so many communitiesthat are doing incredible work
(21:17):
the church can learn a lot aboutthis, and especially being
engaged in the fight.
So our grants are reallydesigned to complement and
partner with organizations whoare doing these amazing things
right.
It's not this presuppositionthat we are going to help them
do something.
It is understanding that ourcommunities know what to do,
(21:40):
they know how to address thestruggles, they know how to lick
oppression, and some of themjust may need a little more
funding or more resources to doso or, in our case, partnerships
.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, and that idea of putting in inputs into
communities, but inputs thataren't paternalistic right,
there are these partnershipinputs and the community is at
the decision point about whatthey need.
We're not here to say we'regoing to give you this money,
but we think you should changepoints three, four and five on
your strategic plan, right?
It's just, it's the money.
(22:17):
And you know, one of the thingsI think of when I think of
colonialism is extraction.
Right, colonialism is all aboutextracting from places all
sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, People resources.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
you know, extracting from the earth, extracting from
communities, extracting frompeople's lives and this is not
about extracting anything.
It's all about input, but inputthat's also really dignified
input and input that's driven bythe people that are looking for
(22:51):
it.
So we're not even trying to doany extraction on their spirit
or their soul.
We're trying to really affirmthe gifts that God has given
them and the intelligence Godhas given them of what they know
they need.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Right, listen right.
The first act of love islistening right, listening to
communities too, and that'ssomething that you know you
mentioned earlier, shannon.
You know, sometimes ourchurches, we become a little
more elitist than we need to be,and when that happens, we're
not listening Right, and that'sthe key.
You know how do we listen, andlisten with not, you know,
(23:26):
listen in a more conceptual waytoo, by making space, and I
think that, and I do think thatthere are churches that are
doing a lot of that, you know,and what do we have to learn
from them?
But also, importantly, you know, in listening, what do we learn
from our communities, who aremost impacted by these things?
So, yes, you're absolutelyright in that way.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, thank you , rebecca.
Talk to us a little bit aboutyour grants and how you all are
doing inputs and interventionsin the hunger program as well.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Sure, I want to say that that listening to
communities and really believingthat they are the architects of
the future.
We need that.
So hunger program andself-development of people to
together have lots of the sameprinciples, core values.
We work together a lot and dothings fairly similarly, even
(24:19):
with different foci, and I thinkpart of it is understanding
that systemic poverty is restingon systems that are human built
.
It's our mistaken or misguidedor evil past philosophies,
beliefs and policies that havebuilt this system.
(24:40):
So it's something to grieve andlament and confess.
It's also something tocelebrate that these systems
aren't eternal.
Systems aren't eternal and sowe can dismantle them because it
was people who built them.
So these communities that weget to walk alongside, the
people that we listen to and thegrant recipients of these
(25:06):
programs are the ones who arecasting another vision and
building different systems thatcould create a world where
poverty is eradicated and wherepeople have all that they need,
both domestic andinternationally, working on
advocacy campaigns to changepolicies that are keeping these
(25:37):
systems in place.
We're working on somedevelopment projects to build
livelihoods and capacity andleaders, but also to work on
food.
Sovereignty is one area that theHunger Program has focused in
on food justice and foodsovereignty, where we're asking
the question of not just wheredo people have access to food,
(26:01):
but do they have access to land,to seeds, to subsidies, to
policy support, to be familyfarmers or new farmers?
So our grants kind of cover thewhole waterfront of communities
(26:22):
that are addressing variousroot causes of hunger and that
will include working on climatechange issues and advocacy,
because a lot of folks arefinding that agriculture is
harder and harder from droughtsand floods and hurricanes and
the whole gamut of climatecaused disasters is making
(26:43):
hunger worse and war and violentconflict is making hunger worse
and so our grants will gotowards some of those root
causes and intersectionaljustice issues.
So Presbyterians a long timeago decided you know our
churches are really good placesin local communities to do that
(27:05):
direct food relief.
So churches are great atbackpack programs and food
pantries and those things areneeded to feed people today at
backpack programs and foodpantries and those things are
needed to feed people today.
But there tend to be some localmoney, community foundation or
regional support for thosethings and when we want to talk
about ending systemic povertyand structural issues that cause
(27:26):
hunger, the hunger program wasreally created to use the
generosity of Presbyterians toget at those root causes and do
advocacy and campaign issues.
So usually now hunger programdoes a little over a million
dollars spread out between 20 to25 different countries,
(27:48):
including the US, and that'susually about a hundred grantee
partners all kind of doingdifferent things, including the
US, and that's usually about 100grantee partners all kind of
doing different things.
Community solutions the mainareas that we've identified that
our grants could sort of beframed or grouped in are
providing more and better food,of course, but also solidarity
(28:12):
campaigns with people andcommunities, so that advocacy
walking alongside solidarity anda livable environment, so
creating access to healthy,clean, safe spaces as well.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Right, Right.
Yeah, You're reminding me ofone of my favorite projects,
which is just down the road fromme, which is Soul Fire Farm.
Right, space and farmland forcommunities of color and weaving
in Afro-Indigenous practices,rehabilitating and healing the
(28:57):
land while feeding people andalso scaling up and growing next
generations of farmers.
I mean they're really doing iton all the different angles, but
then also teaching in the localcommunity and doing direct
service as well, teaching localpeople here in the cities of
(29:20):
Troy and Albany how to havetheir own small backyard garden
as well and do some of their ownfeeding of themselves.
They really are trying to goafter all the different angles
related to the food system andjustice.
It's really become andblossomed into such an
incredible piece of work whatthey're doing.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
One of the things that Soul Fire Farm has taught
me is, while tree planting isreally important and great,
there's also lots of other waysto capture carbon emissions, and
one of them is throughagricultural practices.
They have what they callsilvopasture, and they're one of
the tree grants this year, andlast year is for some other
agricultural processes that areknown to capture carbon.
So again, it's thatintersectional work where
they're tackling racial justiceand generational poverty and
(30:17):
land access, but also, meanwhile, fighting climate change and
working to build this beautifulfuture we all want.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, and also so many of us that get the chance
to be near them and do a littlebit of volunteer work where it's
appropriate.
Like I recognize, I'm a whiteperson and so most of the land
that they're working on and mostof the community they're
creating is not for me and I'monly there when I'm invited
right, and that's okay too.
And being okay with that, youknow, being okay with it's not
(30:47):
all about me, it's not all aboutwhen I want to show up or um,
but the times I have been ableto be there and the times I have
been able to integrate.
When the community says whatthey need, um, and community
says what they want to do, umcan be very powerful as well.
Um, but it's not at mydirection, it's not even at
(31:07):
whatever I'm interested in, um.
I have to wait and be invitedand be able to come in that area
of partnership and that's, Ithink, an important ministry
lesson for all of us.
So it's been a huge gain overthe last 11 years being just
down the road from them andbeing able to watch but also
(31:28):
learn and grow on my own as well.
It's been.
It's a really interestingproject.
So we'll put that in the shownotes.
It's always one of the things Ilove to talk about.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I do want to speak about that too, because I think
Leah Penniman in the bookFarming While Black I think you
make some really good, shannon.
It's good, it's so good topoint out the racism of food
systems, but also you know howit connects to employment and
these kinds of things.
One of the things I love aboutSoul Fire Farm is that they do
(31:59):
acknowledge that for a long timethat black people were, you
know, had large agriculturalpractices that were taken away
from by the government.
That were taken away from bythe government, yes, basically,
and they acknowledge the andthis is the systemic piece that
I think Leah Penniman and folksat Soul Fire Farm get to.
When you talk about race andthese kinds of things land being
(32:20):
taken away from people, right,land being, you know, land and
practices it makes me think alot about some of the work in
eco-womanism, right, this ideathat we understand that there
are some connections witheco-womanism, right, this idea
that we understand that thereare some connections with
eco-memory, right.
And I think Soul Fire Farm getsat this idea of you know the
fact that Black people weretending the land.
(32:41):
Black people did own land andthis was subsistence right, and
so when I think about that.
I think about there is severalSDOP-funded programs that
actually do these kinds ofthings too, that they
acknowledge that this that thispractice has is
(33:02):
multidisciplinary.
And when I say that means it'sacknowledgement of the land,
it's addressing food systems,but it's also it's creating a
labor possibilities.
It's creating possibilities forto have a skill.
You know there's somethingcalled Strength to Love in
Baltimore, which is a communitygarden.
It's designed and created byformerly incarcerated folks and
(33:26):
the idea is, you know, as wetalk about these systems that
close people out, right, we havelaws in this country that
basically says if you've beenincarcerated, you can't work
here or there, you don't haveaccess to work here or there.
And what these folks found?
Two things.
One, this kind of eco-memory.
Right, they found this placewhere they can actually do the
work of subsistence, they canembrace this idea of discipline
(33:48):
and life creation, at the sametime learning transferable
skills that will allow them tobe able to live lives of
self-determination.
So I think Soul Fire Farm issuch a good example of the kinds
of things and innovative thingsthat have been different and
how we understand projects.
(34:08):
And Soul Fire Farm is a good ofthe the innovation and
ingenuity of folks to say thathere's another way, right, and
so thank you for lifting them up.
And uh, and because I see in inboth the hunger program and
sdop, we see, so we have so manyprograms that are very similar
rather than doing the similarkind of work.
(34:28):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
It's really helpful and it's also a space where the
Holy Spirit shows up, you know,where we God does something new
and unexpected in our lives andin the lives of other people,
and we don't even know thejourney we're about to be taken
on.
And the Spirit is alive andit's an opportunity for us to
(34:51):
tap into places that we maybehaven't paid attention to God's
activity in the world or in ourlives, or in the future, or in
the past or the present, and Ithink that those things really
do come up and come out of thoseplaces.
And so these are also placesfor aliveness of the spirit and
(35:14):
people have an opportunity forthat ongoing work of
discipleship building, personaland corporate, that we all are
in need of these days, Very muchso.
I'm so appreciative of thisconversation.
I want to close up with aquestion.
I stole this from anotherpodcast I like to listen to.
(35:35):
The podcast is called Outrageand Optimism and they ask their
guests as they close up tell mesomething that outrages you and
tell you something that makesyou optimistic and sort of I
think the frustrating way ofasking that is like so where's
total depravity still messing usup or frustrating you, and
what's happening with the HolySpirit.
Like.
(35:57):
You know what's God beckoningus towards, and so I'm curious
if each of you would be up forsharing with us.
You know, however, you want touse those frames as we close up
in your ministry and in yourwork.
Whoever wants to go is fine byme.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I think it's easy to feel outraged at all of the
things happening on all of thefronts that seem so horrific
right now, from reading newsabout global wars and conflicts
to reading domestic news, stillabout police violence and
(36:40):
incarceration, to just ongoingsuffering and I forgot to
mention earlier but just theradical lack of enough
affordable housing.
So seeing folks who arehomeless or without housing
security in some form or fashion, I think it can make me really
(37:05):
outraged, because I think thechurch is called to provide home
for people, spiritual as wellas physical.
But then I do think the HolySpirit is moving.
So one thing I forgot tomention earlier is the beautiful
sign of Presbyterians and otherpeople of faith joining
together in congregation basedcommunity organizing, cbcos.
(37:30):
So that's something I've gottento learn about through the
Hunger Program and othercolleagues, and I think the Holy
Spirit is moving in thoseplaces.
It's long hard work, it'scampaign work, it's policy, it's
local work, but it's a realtestament because people are
making these small wins uponwhich they can build each year,
(37:54):
and I think that's what it'sabout, whether these community
groups like Soul Fire Farm orCBCOs or what churches are doing
all over.
But it may just be this onething that this one group can do
in this one place, but we'reall doing it together.
So when you really start tostep back and look at all these
(38:16):
grantee partners, all theseprograms, all these churches,
all of this good, good work,that's the Holy Spirit for me.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Amen to that, rebecca , I think.
For me, I'm outraged about theperceived invisibility of the
poor right, this idea that andwe use mythological language to
call them working class rightAspiring to be something and not
and when this happens, weignore, we mask the struggle,
(38:49):
right, we don't look at thecomplex movements of systems
that we just talked about, right, or we consign poverty to
personal failings.
And this is what really makesme angry is that when there's an
invisibility about the poor ofthe poor, either they don't
exist or they exist because it'stheir own fault and the
mythology that's built around it.
They just can't get it right.
(39:11):
And what that does is that justalienates.
It alienates humans who arestruggling, alienates children
who are not even food, right, italienates folks who are living
in the struggle, whether it behomelessness or whether it be
mass incarceration or whether itbe joblessness or whether it be
.
And things that we haven'ttalked about today is how mental
(39:35):
health and access to healthcare affect people.
So this perceived invisibilityof the poor also invalidates
their struggle, right, itinvalidates the struggle that
people have.
What is it 140 million peoplein our country that we
invalidate their struggle, right, I think.
But what I'm optimistic andwhere I see the Holy Spirit is
(39:57):
really in the gift of the church.
Right, I see, I see it inPresbyterian ministries and
churches who are engaging thisstruggle.
Right, I think about you know,I mean just a few, just just in
thinking about churches who aredoing this.
I think about Berea andPresbyterian Church in
(40:18):
Philadelphia, who has thisincredible food program and,
yeah, you know it's a mercyprogram, but it also recognizes
the great hunger in thiscommunity and basically have
decided that we are going toaddress hunger but we're also
going to be a friend to thepeople who are poor and we're
going to acknowledge theirpresence in this community.
I think about FirstPresbyterian Church here in
(40:44):
Atlanta.
Some years ago I talked toReverend Tony Sundermeyer and
they have a program whichaddresses issues of homelessness
and one of the innovativethings that I liked about it was
that homeless folks can use thechurch as an address so that
they can get mail, they can getthe kind of they can be human
right.
Well, I think about, you know,one of the churches, one or two
(41:06):
churches in Louisville as whereyou know where our headquarters
exists, and I think aboutBeachmont Presbyterian Church,
who's doing amazing work throughsomething called La Esquilita,
the little school where theyrecognize that you know,
undocumented students andstudents who are, you know, who
have language barriers, can comeand learn and be able to master
(41:30):
some of the technologies neededto do schoolwork.
Or Central Presbyterian Churchin Louisville, who's also doing
another food program andacknowledging the fact that we
need to engage with ourneighbors.
I think these are reallyimportant things, and so I'm
inspired, I think, about theHoly Spirit moving in these
churches.
And here's the thing this isnot new to us.
(41:54):
This is Jesus telling us totake this ministry out into the
poor.
We have policy statements thatPresbyterians before us have
worked on for many years,addressing situations of the
poor and how we need to engage,at least, and how we need to
engage the powers, to use WalterWink's language Right.
(42:15):
And then, just as you know,just as Rebecca mentioned, we
have an Office of Public Witnessfor advocacy.
So for anybody in thePresbyterian Church to say, hey,
we don't have the avenues andthe vehicles to do this, they're
all around us and this is whatit's like we talk about.
What does it mean to bePresbyterian?
And one of the things thatattracted me as a kid being
Presbyterian.
My mentor said to me, we'reabout education and justice, and
(42:36):
those are the things that drewme so when I think about the
work of SDOP, the work of uniquecommunities, letting us know
what it is we need to do.
We have more than enoughresource-wise, we have more than
enough theologically, and wehave more than enough in
community to be able to addresspoverty.
(42:57):
You know Rebecca's absolutelyright we are the richest country
in the world.
We have more than enough, andso how do we make that work?
How do we come together?
How do we, as Peter Block says,how do we invite people into
this work?
What's going to be a form ofinvitation?
As we invite people to thecommunion table, invite them to
(43:18):
the baptismal font, how do weinvite people into the things of
God right, the fullness and theabundance of God?
Which is language that's so,it's Holy Spirit language that's
contra, the language ofscarcity right.
And so these are the kinds ofthings I think that make me
excited is when I see churchesengaging, questioning,
(43:42):
innovating and recognizing thatthey have been blessed with so
much, and too much is given.
Much expected, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
yeah, thank you, alonzo.
You know you're reminding me.
Also, we're recording thispodcast in the first week or so
of October and folks won't hearthis until the new year, but
we're recording it while we'rein the midst of these terrible
two weeks around HurricaneHelene and now Hurricane Milton
that last night just slicedthrough Florida.
And my parents live in BlackMountain, north Carolina, so of
(44:12):
course they're in one of thesehard hit communities and go to
the Presbyterian Church thereand they've been in this process
.
The Black Mountain Church, likelots of churches have been.
You know, over the last coupleof years or whenever in the life
of their church, they've beendoing some renovations on the
building and those renovationshave come in very, very in
extremely helpful ways latelythe upgrades they made to their
(44:35):
Christian Ed wing, the upgradesto the sanctuary.
Their space has become such aministry output area to feed
their community after thishorrific natural disaster in the
last 10 days.
But they have this line on thefront of their communion table
and it's a question.
It says has everyone been fed,has everyone been fed?
And they were trying to figureout they were doing, I think,
(44:57):
also very Presbyterian things anew building project, a
strategic plan.
You know very Presbyterianthings and didn't know how God
was going to necessarily usethese things.
You hate to have these thingsused, or God to show you what
you were up to through somethinglike this.
But their pastor has writtenand preached on this.
Her first sermon, back afterthe hurricane, said I didn't
(45:22):
know what we were going to dowith these words on the
communion table.
We were talking about doingsomething different.
We didn't know.
But look at what God has shownus.
This question of has everyonebeen fed?
And it's not just directservice right after the
hurricane, making sure peoplewho really have lost everything
right at this moment get fed,that's a immediate thing.
But have people been fed inmind, in heart, in spirit, in
(45:47):
soul, are they being seen?
Being fed is so many differentthings.
It's not just that physicalfood.
And also, are we going to beable to feed people as we go
forward?
And I was talking to my parentslast night on the phone and my
mom was telling me that there'sa Methodist church in town that
has been doing nothing sincethis hurricane.
(46:08):
They're like just not, theirdoors aren't open, they've like
just disappeared, like gone.
And I said to my parents lastnight.
I said you know what.
They've made their choicethey're going to die.
That church is going to die.
And people are going to noticein the community who is feeding
people, which churches, whichcommunities are showing up and
it's not just the Presbyteriansin that community.
(46:28):
Lots of folks are showing up inlots of ways.
People are going to noticewho's showing up, who's there
for them in a crisis, but alsofor the long haul, and that's
where people's energy is goingto go.
And churches that make thechoice not to show up and not to
feed in any way, they're notgoing to make it, and that's a
choice.
But it's also a choice of wherewe align ourselves with the
(46:51):
spirit and where God is takingus.
And so we were just talkingabout this on the phone last
night, about, you know, they'rejust noticing the choices of
different faith communitiesafter this natural disaster, and
I said, yeah, they will.
These choices will showthemselves for years to come.
This ministry, these ministries, will show themselves for years
to come.
This is what will happen, andyou know they're in the early,
(47:14):
first, hard days of all of this.
But decisions are being made,and those decisions how we show
up, how we address poverty whenit's systemic and when it comes
at you like a freight train likethis, it gets seen in
communities us really mad.
They can make us reallyoptimistic too about how God's
(47:35):
people get activated andre-engaged in ministry.
So I think there's just a lotgoing on in all of these pieces
and weaving together.
So I'm so grateful to both ofyou for the ministry that you do
and the ways you show up in thelife of ministry, for being
co-laborers in the PresbyterianChurch with all of us, and we're
(47:59):
glad we get to share a littlebit more about both of these
ministries in our podcast.
Come anytime and visit us in thePresbytery, and I know I didn't
say it earlier, but RachelWhite, who is the spouse of one
of our pastors, kevin White,just joined Alonzo, your
national committee, and sohopefully we can use that as a
way to get your nationalcommittee to come have a meeting
(48:20):
in our bounds.
We'd love to host you allanytime and as well as the
hunger program, you're always sowelcome and I'm thinking about
ways we continue to be be thechurch, so thank you for being
with us.
We'll put all the resources wetalked about in the podcast
notes that will go out with thispodcast, and thank you both for
what you do, being ambassadorsof Matthew 25.
(48:40):
I know both of you as longtimefriends and colleagues and know
that this is your heart's work.
Discipleship, loving God,loving creation, is at the core
of who both of you are.
So thank you so much and thankyou for being part of connecting
our conversations.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
And thank you for being part of connecting our
conversations.
Thanks for having us.
Thank you for having us.
It's been an honor and apleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Thank you.
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