January 5, 2025 • 43 mins
In the first episode of the Matthew 25 series, Rev. Dr. Shannan Vance-Ocampo and Dr. Corey Schlosser-Hall explore the essence of being a Matthew 25 church, highlighting the call for deeper engagement within faith communities to address systemic injustices.
This conversation dives into the intersections of ministry, community needs, the vital importance of embodying Jesus’ teachings and much more:
• Acknowledging the role of intersectionality in ministry
• The church's historical commitment to community engagement
• Exploring the collective identity of faith and discipleship
Dr. Corey Schlosser-Hall is the Deputy Executive Director of Vision and Innovation of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Prior to that he served as the Executive Presbyter(EP) for Presbytery of the Northwest Coast. A Ruling Elder, Corey grew up in the Dakotas and graduated from the University of Oregon He earned a Ph.D. in Organizational Communication from the University of Minnesota and is an ICF credentialed leadership coach.
Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.Connecting our Conversations is hosted by the Presbytery of Southern New England, a regional governing body in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). This is our space for conversations that push the edges of our faith and help us deepen discipleship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the General Presbyterof the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During the months of Januaryand February of 2025, we are
doing a special podcast serieson being a Matthew 25 Presbytery
.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical.
I wanted to leave somethingbehind for the Presbytery that
would be a ministry resource forall of you.
(00:52):
We are a Matthew 25 Presbyteryand so this work is at the heart
of our ministry.
In addition to this podcast,our Presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025 are alsoplanned to focus around Matthew
25 themes and offer resourcesaround the Presbytery as well.
This podcast series is going toexplore behind being a Matthew
(01:24):
25 church, including aconversation about what
intersectionality is and why itis at the heart of this ministry
.
So today we're going to betalking to my good friend, dr
Corey Schwacher-Hall, who is theDeputy Executive Director.
We're all changing our titlesthese days Corey.
Deputy Executive Director ofthe new Unifying Agency of the
(01:47):
Presbyterian Church USA.
So welcome, corey, to thispodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Shannon, and it's nice to be with you and all our
fabulous people.
Disciples of the Presbytery ofSouthern New England.
Thanks be to God.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Thank you.
So I love to start out withintroductions, and so, corey,
I'd like to just give you amoment or two to tell everyone
who you are, introduce yourselfin whatever way makes sense for
you, that's great Well.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
As you mentioned, I'm serving was serving with the
Presbyterian Mission Agency, nowthe Interim Unifying Agency of
the PCUSA.
I've been doing this for justover two years and prior to that
I was serving, similar to you,as a Presbytery leader,
presbytery executive, in thePresbytery of the Northwest
(02:38):
Coast so the very west, furtherwest part of the country than
you, the very west, further westpart of the country than you,
and I live in the greaterSeattle area.
I live in a suburb justnortheast of Seattle with my
spouse, adrienne, and we havetwo fabulous daughters, one of
(02:59):
whom just got married last month, which was a very big
celebration that you celebratedwith me.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, I saw the pictures.
It looked like a lot of fun.
I know you took a bunch of timeoff around it to be with her,
so congratulations on this stepin family life, right?
So just some other introductoryinformation.
So tell us what you do as theDeputy Executive Director.
So tell us what you do as thedeputy executive director, sort
of what your portfolio ofministry work looks like at the
(03:29):
National Church.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, well, of course , because everything is changing
, it's always evolving and soyou know, if you interview me
next month it may be different,but what I have been doing is
being engaged in some of theunifying dimensions of work.
(03:52):
I work with our communicationsministry, so we have a fabulous
director, Rick Jones, but I getto work with Rick as he helps
direct the communicationsministry.
I have been part of helping tofoster the ministry of
(04:27):
innovation in our denominationallife and working mostly with
mid councils and as they by midcouncils, we meanterians and
Synods as they seek to becomeinnovative in ministry.
And I also have been blessed towork with our Center for Repair
of Historic Harm and thedirector of that center that has
emerged over the last couple ofyears.
His name is Jermaine Ross-Alemand he would be a great person
to interview on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I already interviewed him a few weeks ago, oh good
news.
He's one of our weeks coming up.
So folks listening to this weeknumber one, you're in for a
treat very soon down the line.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, jermaine's great Good.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and that's a little bit about what I do.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That office is doing really incredible work in the
life of our church and you knowyou got to experience a lot of
that firsthand.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
It's been fun.
I mean, I just rotated offbeing on the PMA board at the
General Assembly about sixmonths ago, but it was.
You know, I think one of myhighlights of being on the board
(05:25):
was working on thereorganization of the mission
agency that will now flow intothe unified agency and setting
up some new offices, like thisOffice of Innovation and the
Office for Repair of HistoricalHarms, and being on the board to
provide that support for thoseoffices and pointing the way
(05:48):
into some new frames of ministryfor the larger church.
It's been enlivening to be partof that.
So I'm glad you're here, corey,to be working on these pieces.
Thanks, thank you.
Yeah, so I thought, since we're, you know, starting this
podcast series about Matthew 25,of course, everybody's read
Matthew 25, very famous part ofscripture but I thought I'd give
(06:09):
you a chance, corey, just tosay what does Matthew 25 mean to
you as a person, as a disciple?
What does it feel like for youas a passage of scripture as you
think about ministry in thelarger church?
What speaks to you about thispiece of scripture as you think
about ministry in the largerchurch?
Like what speaks to you aboutthis, this piece of of scripture
?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking there's so, I mean,
scripture is so rich.
But one of the things that Ithink has been really important
to me about this is in the.
I think most often when peoplethink about this chapter, they
probably first comes to mind theyou know verses 31 through 46
(06:58):
when you know Jesus is saying,hey, I'm looking at, I'm looking
at you all and as, as countries, as people, as nations he uses
in that phrase I'm looking atthis and I'm making some choices
about what has been faithful,what really is someone who is
(07:20):
honoring me.
And in so many of those, so manyof those examples and those
circumstances, he lifts up veryincarnate, very earthy, very
person to person kinds ofengagements and saying, and you
(07:41):
know, like I was in prison andyou visited me, you know, all of
those examples are verypersonal and incarnate
manifestations of an interactionthat have systemic.
They have a much bigger sort ofsystemic, structural impact
(08:09):
because, you know, we havecreated discipleship that cares
about that and that's one of themost profound aspects of this
is that the way in which wedevelop, our habits of life and
discipleship have broader,communal, systemic and
(08:33):
structural impact about, isabout recognizing structural and
systemic impact of racism, ofpoverty, of climate change, of,
you know, of heteropatriarchy,et cetera, and at one of the
hearts of it has been thisnotion of congregational
(08:58):
vitality and new worshipingcommunity vitality and ways in
which, you know, people grow,ways in which people build and
grow their discipleship, and so,anyway, that portion of this
particular passage has been mostmeaningful to me.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, yeah, you know we're recording this podcast in
November of 2024.
And uh, earlier this week I uhwas at our Stony Point center at
a gathering put on by the vitalcongregations and the thousand
and one ministry offices.
Um and uh, I'd said yes to thisback in September, like two
(09:44):
months ago, because we have anew worshiping community in our
presbytery that is focusedprimarily on the Latino
community and also onministering within the Latino
community in a fully inclusiveway, so really also centering
the queer community alongsidethe Latino community, and so
(10:07):
they had mentioned they weregoing and they asked if I would
come with them and I said sure,of course, I'll be there with
you, and it was really anamazing event on Monday.
I wish everyone could have beenthere with me on Monday,
because the trainers you knowfrom one you know, because the
(10:49):
trainers you know from youroffice, a part of your office
went through four areas ofministry that are essential to
immigrants and new worshipingcommunities and walking
alongside others in ways tobuild them up right, and that's
really a very rootedness inMatthew 25, I think as well, and
as I was sitting therelistening, these were immigrants
and also new worshipingcommunities focused on
immigrants from sort of acrossthe eastern seaboard, sort of
Atlanta, up to New York Cityarea, and so there were multiple
(11:11):
presentations made anddiscussions about other
ministries, and what I noticedin all of these ministries was
just incredible and deepattentiveness to community and
to what was happening in thatlocal community.
What were the basic needs andhow do we show up to meet basic
(11:31):
needs, which is what that lastpiece of Matthew 25, right, you
know really looks at.
You know, I was in prison, Iwas hungry, I was naked, you
know sort of basic needs.
And one of the things, I waslistening to a podcast while
driving down there and it wastalking about this loneliness
epidemic that we're having inthe United States and we think
(11:53):
about it that it it startedmanifesting itself, this
loneliness among people, duringthe pandemic, but the podcast
actually reminded me that thesurgeon general declared a
loneliness epidemic as a medicalepidemic in the United States.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Public health crisis.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Public health crisis in 2015, five years before the
pandemic right, and so this hasbeen going on for a long time.
And so when we dig deep I thinkyou know what you're talking
about into these sort of basicsof ministry, we're really
addressing these things that aregoing on in all of our
communities and when people areseen, and when people are seen
(12:33):
with their whole self, that'swhen ministry really happens and
ministries really grow andthrive.
We have another church in ourpress tree that welcomed 10 new
members on this past Sundaythrive.
We have another church in ourpresbytery that welcomed 10 new
members on this past Sunday.
I was looking through thesocial media feeds of some of
our churches the day after,because I always do that on
Mondays to see what happened inwhatever church I wasn't in, you
(13:00):
know, on that Sunday.
And this church is just, youknow, growing like a weed in our
presbytery and it's exciting tosee and 10 new members.
And I talked to their pastorTuesday this week and I said
tell me about these 10 newmembers?
And she said well, it's sofunny.
We had a new members class andwe only had nine people who were
going to join the church andwhen I called.
We got to that part of theworship service and I said it's
time to call the new people upto join the church.
She said another person justcame up and said I want to join
(13:22):
today.
And she said I had this momentwhere I thought, oh, but you
weren't in the new members classand I thought, well, that
doesn't matter.
And so we had 10 new members,not nine new members, and so you
know, but that church isshowing up in to really meet
people where they are.
They're doing all sorts ofhealing ministries, they're
(13:47):
doing anti-racism work.
They're really digging in andfruitfulness is happening as a
result of that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, there's another dimension of this.
I think that's worth lifting up.
You know, often when we read apassage like that, the people
who are the readers think ofthemselves, can not always think
of themselves as the one whodoes the visiting of one who is
sick, or the one who does theclothing of one who needs
clothing, you know, in thosemetaphors but I also think Jesus
(14:24):
is calling us to a deeperunderstanding that this is a
communal property are in deepneed of being a part of a
community when we are sick, whenwe are friendless, when we are
(15:00):
lonely to, you know, be part ofthat.
So my hope is that relationshipand compassion, that we are all
in those positions at somepoint and in need of and want to
be a part of a community thatmanifests that kind of
(15:23):
connection in the world.
And that's one of the thingsthat most excites me about being
the church is that we canmanifest that with each other.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Absolutely yeah, we're always.
At some point we're going to bethe giver and at some point
we're going to be the receiver,right, and sometimes in the same
moment.
Yeah, yeah, you just never knowthe other.
You know, matthew 25 is sort oflike three movements in a
pretty big passage of scriptureand that first part is about you
know the bridesmaids andkeeping watch, paying attention,
(15:56):
which I think is a reallyimportant piece of ministry
paying attention, noticingwhat's going on around you, of
ministry paying attention,noticing what's going on around
you, keeping watch for themovement of the Holy Spirit,
right.
And then there's that pieceabout you know what is it?
The man who gives the talentsto his slaves.
(16:18):
That part has always sort ofchallenged me because it, you
know, the slave master in thispassage is, you know, aggressive
and really nasty and mean toone of his slaves, right, yeah,
in all of the passage, and thethings he says are just, you
know everything terrible that wewould think about.
You know someone who enslavesother people, but, but the slave
(16:41):
also, the person who's enslaved, also like is clear.
Like he says I see you, I seewhat kind of person you are, I
see how terrible you are, andlike names it and it gets said
in scripture like the truth ofof the slave master and the
truth of his terribleness, andso, uh, I I appreciate that too
(17:03):
in Matthew 25, that there's thisI knew that you are a hard man.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
There's this truth telling you know, I knew you are
a hard man, you know, and Iknew you would you know, steal.
You know?
So often in history the wordsof those who are oppressed get
written out of history.
But the words of an oppressedperson is in the middle of the
(17:28):
scripture passage and is beingtold in its truthfulness, even
though I'm sure it made theslave master even angrier.
Right to have someone who'senslaved standing up to him and
saying, hey, I see you.
I see you for your evil, right.
So I like those movements inMatthew 25 of like, keep watch,
tell the truth, focus on theleast of these.
(17:51):
It's an interesting sort ofmovement through the whole of
the chapter.
I always think.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, it's very compelling and thank you for
that.
And you know we often think ofit as three different stories,
but for you to think of it as awhole, you know, is pretty
compelling.
A church that I had served in aprevious incarnation of service
(18:25):
that said, in our life togetherwe are a Matthew 25 and a
Matthew 28 congregation holdingthese things together.
And I'm compelled, when you goto Matthew 28, which is it's
it's an inspiring passage.
But when you go to Matthew 28,what you hear Jesus saying to
(18:48):
the disciples is do all that Itaught you, which is which is
kind of pointing back to thissection.
It's like, if you're, if you'regoing to follow me, this is
what I was teaching you.
I mean, this is the lastchapter of Matthew before sort
of the series of events thateventually lead to Jesus'
(19:12):
crucifixion and resurrection,but this is like the passage of
Matthew's 20.
Pay attention, because this ismy last teaching before I'm
going down this road and I findthat pretty compelling too.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's at the end of the.
It's at the end of the chapter,right, we know it comes at the
end of the chapters in theGospels.
They start at the beginning andthey go, go through the,
through the end, and we knowwhat happens there, right at the
beginning and they go throughthe end.
And we know what happens there,right.
And I think these are goodpieces to start the new year
with as well, because the newyear is always about intention
setting and reorientation andfor us, in our own discipleship
(19:57):
and the life of our communities,our congregations, that
intentionality of resetting anew year around the ministry of
Jesus is so important as we gointo a new year.
And I think you know,especially for those who'll be
listening as we start 2025,right.
So it's going to.
You know, rootedness in the wayof Jesus is really what all of
(20:20):
this is getting at the workaround Matthew 25.
How do we root ourselves in theway of Jesus?
So one of the pieces aroundMatthew 25, right is that you
know it's.
You know Matthew 25 was startedin 2016 by the General Assembly
(20:42):
, responding to an overture thatcame out of a couple of
presbyteries, and the overturetalks about creating cycles of
engagement in the church, in ourministry, so reviewing our
ministry into cycles ofengagement, and it talks about
ministry that's rooted inministry to the least of these
and that addresses major issuesfacing our world, which, you
(21:03):
know.
2016 is not that long ago andit also feels like eons ago,
right, uh, but cause, so muchhas happened since 2016.
Uh, but, uh, uh, you know thethese basic pieces around um a
ministry that is focused on theprimary issues around uh, care
of those who are in poverty,prioritizing the voices of the
(21:27):
voiceless, addressing the issueof climate change and the
degradation of God's first giftto us in the creation, the good
and beautiful creation, and thenalso addressing issues around
violence and militarism.
You know that these thingsseparate us from the way of
Jesus.
(21:51):
So, as the denomination sort ofpulled this apart and created
the work you know, kind of tookthe overture and then designed
it into a ministry work plan.
Right, it got designed intothree major focuses
congregational vitality,addressing issues of poverty,
addressing issues of racism andhow that those things you know
again pull us away from the wayof Jesus.
(22:11):
And then these intersectingareas around looking at issues
of militarism, violence, issuesaround the climate crisis and
then around gender justice andheteropatriarchy.
So you've been, you know, inthe thick of it, corey working.
Can you talk about what thisfocus on intersectionality means
(22:32):
for ministry and how that showsup, and what are good practices
around intersectionality inministry?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well, well, let me just kind of share a quick story
.
If you would, or started tobecome part of our colloquial
(23:03):
vocabulary really back in the90s Kimberly Krenschoff sort of
is recognized as a key personwho coined it.
That said and this comes backto what we were just talking
about before, there areindividuals and communities that
are experiencing not shalom butinjustice, that are
(23:30):
experiencing oppression, thatare experiencing not having
access to the things like youknow me, a middle class
heterosexual white guy, may havemore access to and ease with
than many other communities andindividuals would have.
And when we look at that, whenwe look at why that's happening,
(23:59):
there can become severaldifferent, both social and
personal influences.
Forces that make that true andI think that's what she and
others were pointing at is thatthere are issues of a person's
race and their background, thereare issues of a person's
economic status and what thatmeans.
There are that where they livein the world, that, that, that
(24:22):
where they live in the world.
You know all of these piecesthat when, if, when you look at
that one individual or that onecommunity, you have to
understand those larger forcesthat are at work that prevent
wholeness, well-being, shalomand shalomification in that
(24:43):
person's life or in thatcommunity's life, and so wanting
to help us in our discipleship,grow more attuned and aware to
those bigger forces that giveshape to this condition, rather
than the easy thing is oh, lookat that individual and shouldn't
(25:06):
we have sympathy for thatperson because they're in a?
No, there's actually, in mostcases there are sets of
conditions that make anindividual's or community's
situation as it is, and so thereason why I'm saying that is in
part because take one simpleexample of I shouldn't say
(25:30):
simple, but an example one of myfavorite social enterprises
that's happening in the churchis in our colleagues
Presbyterian NewcastlePresbytery.
It's a thing called the KitchenCollective.
So I'm sharing this to describesome of these intersections.
(25:55):
So the Kitchen Collective was afirst started as a Methodist
church.
Chelsea Snyder, by the way, ifyou want to connect with her, is
a key leader for the KitchenCollective Started with a
Methodist church who said youknow, as a church we have this
really fabulous commercialkitchen that we use twice a week
(26:17):
.
There's another hundred oddhours that this could be used
outside of this and I wonder ifsomebody else could use it.
So, and what happened from thatis that there were people in
the community who wanted todevelop new businesses.
(26:38):
Who wanted to whether it's afood truck or a bakery or some
kind of food service, and thiswas their way of generating
economic income and contributingto the community.
Or people who were not white,they were African-American or
(27:08):
Indian-American or others thatwanted to get into this business
.
But the system creates a barthat we're investing in the
capital to have access tocommercial grade facilities that
would allow this business toactually function in that whole
(27:30):
system is too high for acommunity to jump over.
And so what the church did wasto say, hey, look what we got,
we could make this available toothers.
Say, hey, look what we got, wecould make this available to
others.
And what that did was to createa systemic interruption in the
way that the economy of thisplace was set up, so that, you
(27:53):
know, a person who wanted tomake falafel available to a
broad community could do that.
The church made it possible.
They created this relationship.
Soon that Methodist churchturned into that Methodist
church and ate foodentrepreneurs.
And then the Presbyteriansjumped in.
(28:15):
So you know, the Presbyterianchurch did the same thing.
They did that with another setof food entrepreneurs.
Last time I talked with Chelsea.
She said, even though we've gotthree churches that are making
their kitchens available for allof these entrepreneurs, she
said we still have 28 businesseson the waiting list wanting to
do this.
And that was an innovation ofan individual congregation
(28:39):
saying we got something we couldshare with others.
But part of you see, that's anindividual act of saying, hey,
we got something we could sharewith others.
But part of you see, that's anindividual act of saying, hey,
we got something we could sharewith somebody else.
But it has a systemicinterruption in an economy for a
community, especially for manyof these communities who come
from communities who don't haveaccess to that kind of capital.
(29:02):
That could happen and to beginto be able to see that these
communities' race, immigrationand background is connected to
the economy and how the economyis set up to allow some to be in
and some to be out.
And the church has a way ofreading that and taking an
(29:23):
individual act that actually hassystemic consequences.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I think reading that intersectionally is really
useful and I realized that wasyou know, a church shows up in
the community.
Because they paid attention,you know, getting back to that
first piece of Matthew 25.
(29:49):
They paid attention to theircommunity, they saw something
that was going on.
They were in conversation withsomeone and found out about this
and said, oh, we have a way tomeet that need, we have a way to
be in partnership.
And it's not about us, and it'snot for our growth, and it's
not for we're giving this away.
(30:10):
You know, we're doing it incomplete humility, selflessness,
service.
Right, we're not doing this todo what we need to do, but I bet
those congregations, theirvitality grew yeah exactly One
of the things that we seeFascinating.
And also created partnership,probably between those
congregations.
Like I loved when I served inAlbany Presbyterian, the
(30:35):
downtown churches in Albany hada like a little organization
that they ran called FocusChurches, and I'm sure Focus
stood for something, but it wasecumenical again.
But what they said was oh, wehave all this poverty going on
in the downtown corridor of thecity of Albany Homelessness,
(30:56):
food insecurity, need to doliteracy programs with children
and there's no way onecongregation can tackle all that
stuff on their own.
And so you know it's the, it's,you know the Presbyterians and
the Methodists and the Baptistsand the Episcopalians and it's,
it's a whole group of them, uh,doing this work, uh, together in
(31:20):
community, uh, for a communityimpact.
My home church that I grew up inwas involved in Family Promise,
which is a ministry that stillcontinues with homeless families
, and we did all sorts ofministry and it was interfaith.
When I was growing up we dideverything with the synagogue
across the street from us and Iremember that just making a huge
(31:41):
impression on me when I wasgrowing up at my home church
that we don't, we didn't,address community issues on our
own.
We did them with our neighborsright across the street at the
synagogue, right.
So I, I love that that piece,and so sometimes maybe we think
like intersectionality is somenew thing that we have to do.
But it's actually kind of likewho we are if we go back and
read the tape, right, I mean, myhome church was doing
(32:04):
intersectionality back in the80s but they weren't calling it
that.
They were just like oh, we workwith neighbors across the
street right and so and I'mgrateful also, you know, for the
work of naming what you knowintersectionality is and
explaining it as well.
That's also so importantbecause these pieces help us
(32:24):
grow in faithfulness.
That's really important.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
And if you treat them as, if you treat these things
as issues rather than asincarnate manifestations in the
life of a person and community,then you can go on your own sort
of intellectual project.
That's interesting, but I thinkpart of what being a disciple
of Jesus means is that all ofthese things show up in
(32:50):
incarnate manifestations in thelife of people, and we're about
people who want to createconditions that look more like
shalom than that look likedisparity and difficulty and
inequity of access.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Right right, right right.
Creating community, communitywellness creating thriving right
, yes, go ahead, go ahead.
One more thing.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Oh, it's so fun.
I know one more thing, oh, it'sso fun.
So you know, I've I've sharedwith some others that I'm on a.
I have a mission to add a newverb to the Oxford English
dictionary, and the verb isshalomify.
Because shalom is, you know, we, we think of it as a quality,
or an adjective or a or a nounthe presence of wholeness and
(33:44):
right, relationship andwell-being, beyond just our own
individual piece andcharacteristic.
But it's a communal quality.
And so, you know, as we look atdiminishing the forces of
racism, diminishing the forcesof economic disparity,
diminishing the forces ofheteropatriarchy and gender
(34:04):
difference, it's diminishingthese things we're building
wholeness, well-being.
And so, anyway, I, like the, Ilike you, want to write to our
Oxford English Dictionarywriters, maybe members of our
country.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Listening to this podcast will start a petition
for your verb to go into thedictionary.
I know you like to make upwords, corey, so thank you for
giving us one of your made upwords on the podcast.
Well, I just I know we'regetting close to time here
ending, and there's anotherpodcast I listen to all the time
(34:42):
.
It's called Outrage andOptimism, and it's a really
great podcast, great title,right.
It's led by some folks who workat the United Nations, and
Christina Figueres is one of theleads on it.
She helped get the ParisClimate Accords over the finish
line in 2015 with the UnitedNations.
It has become, you know, one ofour global targets on how we
(35:06):
heal heal the earth, heal thecreation and she wrote a book
about their experience calledthe Future we Choose, and I
loved how she wrote it becauseit's so.
Now, I know she's not aPresbyterian, but it's very
aligned with reformed theology.
Right, that God acts and werespond.
You know it's about our choices, of how we show up and respond
(35:28):
to God's action in our worlds.
I enjoy listening to the podcastand listening to what they're
up to, but they have a closingquestion that I really like, and
so I'm using it during thispodcast series.
I've stolen it from theirpodcast.
But the question they askpeople, of course, is off their
title what are you outragedabout and what are you
(35:48):
optimistic about Now?
Of course, their question is topeople working in areas around
the climate crisis, but a morenuanced or sort of calmer,
perhaps Presbyterian, way ofasking that question is like
what's making you challenged inyour work or optimistic, or
where does total depravity showup?
(36:08):
Or where's the Holy Spirit?
So I'm just curious as I askthat question like where's the
challenge and where's the bluesky right in the work and the
ministry you do?
On behalf of the PCUSA.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, thank you.
That's great.
So I think that it's easier forme to talk about the blue sky.
But that brings into view thechallenge as they are supporting
and engaging with theircongregations, new worshiping
communities and their leaders,the way in which there is a
(37:14):
growing openness to buildingmodes of engagement and support
for people that are not justtrying to do stronger, better,
higher, louder what they'vealways done, just trying to do
stronger, better, higher, louderwhat they've always done.
So the, the, the openness tocreate and to create new
pathways forward for folks.
And the big challenge I thinkin that is that, as part of
creating those new pathwaysforward, there's also saying
(37:38):
goodbye to ways that have beenand there's.
I don't know that we are.
You know, as a community, thatwe have gotten, that we have
built our capacity to, in ahealthy, faithful and holistic
way, recognize well when a wayof being or a congregation or a
(38:07):
committee, or a part of ourmission or ministry needs to
conclude, needs to end, needs tobe modified and needs to be
honored in its completion.
All of these things are allmanifestations of the church,
are not eternal.
While you know, while you know,the gospel of Jesus Christ may
(38:28):
have an eternal quality to it.
The way in which it gets livedout is not eternal, and so these
we're all in a life cycle andbeing able to do that well and
healthfully, to say well, thankyou, Thanks be to God for this
ministry and what it's done andhow it's developed, and allow it
(38:49):
to conclude in a positive,faithful way and while at the
same time welcoming new ways ofbeing, new ways of being engaged
, new communities of people, etcetera.
I think creating that balance,that kind of ecosystem, is a
(39:12):
pretty massive challenge andmany of us like to operate in
one or the other.
And many of us like to operatein one or the other Right.
But I think one of theblessings of being part of a
presbytery is you get to see,you get to operate in a field of
vision where you're seeing itboth happen all the time.
Right, there is newness andgrowth and new ways of being and
(39:35):
new worshiping communities andnew manifestations of the
mission of God in the world, andthere are ways in which endings
need to happen well andfaithfully and hopefully.
And wow, that's a massivechallenge, but that's part of
what God is trying to call us to, not only through this passage,
but just through life andministry, is inhabiting the
(39:59):
spirit, of inhabiting theslipstream of the Holy Spirit,
if you will, to the best of ourability.
And I know this isn't theparticular scripture passage we
were talking about today, but myfavorite book of the Bible
right now is the book of Acts,yeah, the book of Acts and the
(40:20):
ways in which I mean you see itmanifest, even a simple passage
in Acts 16, you see, you knowPaul and others going on an
excursion that they thought wasgoing to work the way it worked
last time and it doesn't work.
And even the Holy Spirit saysno, don't do it, you're
(40:41):
forbidden to do this.
So they have to find acompletely different way and
when they do, they find acompletely different leader that
they would ever expect, andLydia in Philippi, who becomes
the founding pastor of thatchurch in that region, and she's
completely the unexpectedperson that would that would
show up.
So sometimes God is doing this.
(41:03):
No, no, no, no, we're not doingthat anymore to create a new
way.
And man, that's hard for ussometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Right Sorry, that was a lot of words no, no, no, god,
closing one door so we can findthe other door right in our
ministry.
And it is hard, and I alwayslike to remind people.
You know, we've been at thisfollowing Jesus thing for 2000
plus years at this point, right,and so think of all the
manifestations of that.
(41:32):
It's kind of hard to wrap yourmind around.
And and it's global right.
So all the way people show upand engage in the way of Jesus
in languages and in culturesthat are not ours at all, that
are so different.
I had a.
I still have it.
It's a folder I my second callin ministry.
I printed off all these imagesthat I found on Google of people
(41:54):
taking communion all over theworld and we would hang them up
all around the sanctuary onWorld Communion Sunday.
And I mean they are so diverse.
You know there's one of amilitary chaplain giving
communion before a group ofsoldiers go off on a raid during
the Vietnam War, and there's awoman on her deathbed who's
emaciated and has cancer.
(42:15):
And there's an Orthodox woman inRussia taking communion from a
spoon, because it's given on asilver spoon, literally from the
priest, the host, and you knowa community of little children
having first communion and theway we might see it in our
churches and the idea what Iwanted my church to see was
(42:35):
we're part of a global churchand a global representation of
Jesus.
Look at all the ways justcommunion shows up, like today,
in the church and like it says,like open our mind, open our
ways of seeing the way theworship of God and faithfulness
to Jesus is showing up in thisact of communion.
Right, and I always I show itaround, sometimes on World
(42:56):
Communion Sunday, if I happen tobe preaching, and it's always a
good exercise for a church toremember that we're, you know,
we're part of such a biggerproject.
Right, that visual image justtells it, tells it all, right,
so so we leave everyone withthose ideas.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Way bigger than us.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yes, yeah, bigger than us as we start the new year
.
Corey, so grateful for you.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
Thank you for being on thepodcast and we're so grateful
for the work you do in thelarger church, the Matthew 25
ministry that we're all a partof as we orient ourselves in
this new year, and thanks somuch for being part of
connecting our conversations.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, god bless you in this new year and God bless
the Presbytery of Southern NewEngland as you Shalomify the
world, thanks be to.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
God, thank you.
We will work on Shalomifyingthis.
Well, hello everyone.
This is Shannon Van Socampo Iuse she and her pronouns and I
serve as the General Presbyterof the Presbytery of Southern
New England, and this isConnecting Our Conversations,
our podcast space forconversations that push the
edges of our faith and help usto deepen discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
(00:29):
body in the Presbyterian Church,usa.
During the months of Januaryand February of 2025, we are
doing a special podcast serieson being a Matthew 25 Presbytery
.
You are hearing this podcastwhile I am away on sabbatical.
I wanted to leave somethingbehind for the Presbytery that
would be a ministry resource forall of you.
(00:52):
We are a Matthew 25 Presbyteryand so this work is at the heart
of our ministry.
In addition to this podcast,our Presbytery meetings and
gatherings in 2025 are alsoplanned to focus around Matthew
25 themes and offer resourcesaround the Presbytery as well.
This podcast series is going toexplore behind being a Matthew
(01:24):
25 church, including aconversation about what
intersectionality is and why itis at the heart of this ministry
.
So today we're going to betalking to my good friend, dr
Corey Schwacher-Hall, who is theDeputy Executive Director.
We're all changing our titlesthese days Corey.
Deputy Executive Director ofthe new Unifying Agency of the
(01:47):
Presbyterian Church USA.
So welcome, corey, to thispodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Shannon, and it's nice to be with you and all our
fabulous people.
Disciples of the Presbytery ofSouthern New England.
Thanks be to God.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Thank you.
So I love to start out withintroductions, and so, corey,
I'd like to just give you amoment or two to tell everyone
who you are, introduce yourselfin whatever way makes sense for
you, that's great Well.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
As you mentioned, I'm serving was serving with the
Presbyterian Mission Agency, nowthe Interim Unifying Agency of
the PCUSA.
I've been doing this for justover two years and prior to that
I was serving, similar to you,as a Presbytery leader,
presbytery executive, in thePresbytery of the Northwest
(02:38):
Coast so the very west, furtherwest part of the country than
you, the very west, further westpart of the country than you,
and I live in the greaterSeattle area.
I live in a suburb justnortheast of Seattle with my
spouse, adrienne, and we havetwo fabulous daughters, one of
(02:59):
whom just got married last month, which was a very big
celebration that you celebratedwith me.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, I saw the pictures.
It looked like a lot of fun.
I know you took a bunch of timeoff around it to be with her,
so congratulations on this stepin family life, right?
So just some other introductoryinformation.
So tell us what you do as theDeputy Executive Director.
So tell us what you do as thedeputy executive director, sort
of what your portfolio ofministry work looks like at the
(03:29):
National Church.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, well, of course , because everything is changing
, it's always evolving and soyou know, if you interview me
next month it may be different,but what I have been doing is
being engaged in some of theunifying dimensions of work.
(03:52):
I work with our communicationsministry, so we have a fabulous
director, Rick Jones, but I getto work with Rick as he helps
direct the communicationsministry.
I have been part of helping tofoster the ministry of
(04:27):
innovation in our denominationallife and working mostly with
mid councils and as they by midcouncils, we meanterians and
Synods as they seek to becomeinnovative in ministry.
And I also have been blessed towork with our Center for Repair
of Historic Harm and thedirector of that center that has
emerged over the last couple ofyears.
His name is Jermaine Ross-Alemand he would be a great person
to interview on your podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I already interviewed him a few weeks ago, oh good
news.
He's one of our weeks coming up.
So folks listening to this weeknumber one, you're in for a
treat very soon down the line.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, jermaine's great Good.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and that's a little bit about what I do.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That office is doing really incredible work in the
life of our church and you knowyou got to experience a lot of
that firsthand.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
It's been fun.
I mean, I just rotated offbeing on the PMA board at the
General Assembly about sixmonths ago, but it was.
You know, I think one of myhighlights of being on the board
(05:25):
was working on thereorganization of the mission
agency that will now flow intothe unified agency and setting
up some new offices, like thisOffice of Innovation and the
Office for Repair of HistoricalHarms, and being on the board to
provide that support for thoseoffices and pointing the way
(05:48):
into some new frames of ministryfor the larger church.
It's been enlivening to be partof that.
So I'm glad you're here, corey,to be working on these pieces.
Thanks, thank you.
Yeah, so I thought, since we're, you know, starting this
podcast series about Matthew 25,of course, everybody's read
Matthew 25, very famous part ofscripture but I thought I'd give
(06:09):
you a chance, corey, just tosay what does Matthew 25 mean to
you as a person, as a disciple?
What does it feel like for youas a passage of scripture as you
think about ministry in thelarger church?
What speaks to you about thispiece of scripture as you think
about ministry in the largerchurch?
Like what speaks to you aboutthis, this piece of of scripture
?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking there's so, I mean,
scripture is so rich.
But one of the things that Ithink has been really important
to me about this is in the.
I think most often when peoplethink about this chapter, they
probably first comes to mind theyou know verses 31 through 46
(06:58):
when you know Jesus is saying,hey, I'm looking at, I'm looking
at you all and as, as countries, as people, as nations he uses
in that phrase I'm looking atthis and I'm making some choices
about what has been faithful,what really is someone who is
(07:20):
honoring me.
And in so many of those, so manyof those examples and those
circumstances, he lifts up veryincarnate, very earthy, very
person to person kinds ofengagements and saying, and you
(07:41):
know, like I was in prison andyou visited me, you know, all of
those examples are verypersonal and incarnate
manifestations of an interactionthat have systemic.
They have a much bigger sort ofsystemic, structural impact
(08:09):
because, you know, we havecreated discipleship that cares
about that and that's one of themost profound aspects of this
is that the way in which wedevelop, our habits of life and
discipleship have broader,communal, systemic and
(08:33):
structural impact about, isabout recognizing structural and
systemic impact of racism, ofpoverty, of climate change, of,
you know, of heteropatriarchy,et cetera, and at one of the
hearts of it has been thisnotion of congregational
(08:58):
vitality and new worshipingcommunity vitality and ways in
which, you know, people grow,ways in which people build and
grow their discipleship, and so,anyway, that portion of this
particular passage has been mostmeaningful to me.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, yeah, you know we're recording this podcast in
November of 2024.
And uh, earlier this week I uhwas at our Stony Point center at
a gathering put on by the vitalcongregations and the thousand
and one ministry offices.
Um and uh, I'd said yes to thisback in September, like two
(09:44):
months ago, because we have anew worshiping community in our
presbytery that is focusedprimarily on the Latino
community and also onministering within the Latino
community in a fully inclusiveway, so really also centering
the queer community alongsidethe Latino community, and so
(10:07):
they had mentioned they weregoing and they asked if I would
come with them and I said sure,of course, I'll be there with
you, and it was really anamazing event on Monday.
I wish everyone could have beenthere with me on Monday,
because the trainers you knowfrom one you know, because the
(10:49):
trainers you know from youroffice, a part of your office
went through four areas ofministry that are essential to
immigrants and new worshipingcommunities and walking
alongside others in ways tobuild them up right, and that's
really a very rootedness inMatthew 25, I think as well, and
as I was sitting therelistening, these were immigrants
and also new worshipingcommunities focused on
immigrants from sort of acrossthe eastern seaboard, sort of
Atlanta, up to New York Cityarea, and so there were multiple
(11:11):
presentations made anddiscussions about other
ministries, and what I noticedin all of these ministries was
just incredible and deepattentiveness to community and
to what was happening in thatlocal community.
What were the basic needs andhow do we show up to meet basic
(11:31):
needs, which is what that lastpiece of Matthew 25, right, you
know really looks at.
You know, I was in prison, Iwas hungry, I was naked, you
know sort of basic needs.
And one of the things, I waslistening to a podcast while
driving down there and it wastalking about this loneliness
epidemic that we're having inthe United States and we think
(11:53):
about it that it it startedmanifesting itself, this
loneliness among people, duringthe pandemic, but the podcast
actually reminded me that thesurgeon general declared a
loneliness epidemic as a medicalepidemic in the United States.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Public health crisis.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Public health crisis in 2015, five years before the
pandemic right, and so this hasbeen going on for a long time.
And so when we dig deep I thinkyou know what you're talking
about into these sort of basicsof ministry, we're really
addressing these things that aregoing on in all of our
communities and when people areseen, and when people are seen
(12:33):
with their whole self, that'swhen ministry really happens and
ministries really grow andthrive.
We have another church in ourpress tree that welcomed 10 new
members on this past Sundaythrive.
We have another church in ourpresbytery that welcomed 10 new
members on this past Sunday.
I was looking through thesocial media feeds of some of
our churches the day after,because I always do that on
Mondays to see what happened inwhatever church I wasn't in, you
(13:00):
know, on that Sunday.
And this church is just, youknow, growing like a weed in our
presbytery and it's exciting tosee and 10 new members.
And I talked to their pastorTuesday this week and I said
tell me about these 10 newmembers?
And she said well, it's sofunny.
We had a new members class andwe only had nine people who were
going to join the church andwhen I called.
We got to that part of theworship service and I said it's
time to call the new people upto join the church.
She said another person justcame up and said I want to join
(13:22):
today.
And she said I had this momentwhere I thought, oh, but you
weren't in the new members classand I thought, well, that
doesn't matter.
And so we had 10 new members,not nine new members, and so you
know, but that church isshowing up in to really meet
people where they are.
They're doing all sorts ofhealing ministries, they're
(13:47):
doing anti-racism work.
They're really digging in andfruitfulness is happening as a
result of that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, there's another dimension of this.
I think that's worth lifting up.
You know, often when we read apassage like that, the people
who are the readers think ofthemselves, can not always think
of themselves as the one whodoes the visiting of one who is
sick, or the one who does theclothing of one who needs
clothing, you know, in thosemetaphors but I also think Jesus
(14:24):
is calling us to a deeperunderstanding that this is a
communal property are in deepneed of being a part of a
community when we are sick, whenwe are friendless, when we are
(15:00):
lonely to, you know, be part ofthat.
So my hope is that relationshipand compassion, that we are all
in those positions at somepoint and in need of and want to
be a part of a community thatmanifests that kind of
(15:23):
connection in the world.
And that's one of the thingsthat most excites me about being
the church is that we canmanifest that with each other.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Absolutely yeah, we're always.
At some point we're going to bethe giver and at some point
we're going to be the receiver,right, and sometimes in the same
moment.
Yeah, yeah, you just never knowthe other.
You know, matthew 25 is sort oflike three movements in a
pretty big passage of scriptureand that first part is about you
know the bridesmaids andkeeping watch, paying attention,
(15:56):
which I think is a reallyimportant piece of ministry
paying attention, noticingwhat's going on around you, of
ministry paying attention,noticing what's going on around
you, keeping watch for themovement of the Holy Spirit,
right.
And then there's that pieceabout you know what is it?
The man who gives the talentsto his slaves.
(16:18):
That part has always sort ofchallenged me because it, you
know, the slave master in thispassage is, you know, aggressive
and really nasty and mean toone of his slaves, right, yeah,
in all of the passage, and thethings he says are just, you
know everything terrible that wewould think about.
You know someone who enslavesother people, but, but the slave
(16:41):
also, the person who's enslaved, also like is clear.
Like he says I see you, I seewhat kind of person you are, I
see how terrible you are, andlike names it and it gets said
in scripture like the truth ofof the slave master and the
truth of his terribleness, andso, uh, I I appreciate that too
(17:03):
in Matthew 25, that there's thisI knew that you are a hard man.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
There's this truth telling you know, I knew you are
a hard man, you know, and Iknew you would you know, steal.
You know?
So often in history the wordsof those who are oppressed get
written out of history.
But the words of an oppressedperson is in the middle of the
(17:28):
scripture passage and is beingtold in its truthfulness, even
though I'm sure it made theslave master even angrier.
Right to have someone who'senslaved standing up to him and
saying, hey, I see you.
I see you for your evil, right.
So I like those movements inMatthew 25 of like, keep watch,
tell the truth, focus on theleast of these.
(17:51):
It's an interesting sort ofmovement through the whole of
the chapter.
I always think.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, it's very compelling and thank you for
that.
And you know we often think ofit as three different stories,
but for you to think of it as awhole, you know, is pretty
compelling.
A church that I had served in aprevious incarnation of service
(18:25):
that said, in our life togetherwe are a Matthew 25 and a
Matthew 28 congregation holdingthese things together.
And I'm compelled, when you goto Matthew 28, which is it's
it's an inspiring passage.
But when you go to Matthew 28,what you hear Jesus saying to
(18:48):
the disciples is do all that Itaught you, which is which is
kind of pointing back to thissection.
It's like, if you're, if you'regoing to follow me, this is
what I was teaching you.
I mean, this is the lastchapter of Matthew before sort
of the series of events thateventually lead to Jesus'
(19:12):
crucifixion and resurrection,but this is like the passage of
Matthew's 20.
Pay attention, because this ismy last teaching before I'm
going down this road and I findthat pretty compelling too.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's at the end of the.
It's at the end of the chapter,right, we know it comes at the
end of the chapters in theGospels.
They start at the beginning andthey go, go through the,
through the end, and we knowwhat happens there, right at the
beginning and they go throughthe end.
And we know what happens there,right.
And I think these are goodpieces to start the new year
with as well, because the newyear is always about intention
setting and reorientation andfor us, in our own discipleship
(19:57):
and the life of our communities,our congregations, that
intentionality of resetting anew year around the ministry of
Jesus is so important as we gointo a new year.
And I think you know,especially for those who'll be
listening as we start 2025,right.
So it's going to.
You know, rootedness in the wayof Jesus is really what all of
(20:20):
this is getting at the workaround Matthew 25.
How do we root ourselves in theway of Jesus?
So one of the pieces aroundMatthew 25, right is that you
know it's.
You know Matthew 25 was startedin 2016 by the General Assembly
(20:42):
, responding to an overture thatcame out of a couple of
presbyteries, and the overturetalks about creating cycles of
engagement in the church, in ourministry, so reviewing our
ministry into cycles ofengagement, and it talks about
ministry that's rooted inministry to the least of these
and that addresses major issuesfacing our world, which, you
(21:03):
know.
2016 is not that long ago andit also feels like eons ago,
right, uh, but cause, so muchhas happened since 2016.
Uh, but, uh, uh, you know thethese basic pieces around um a
ministry that is focused on theprimary issues around uh, care
of those who are in poverty,prioritizing the voices of the
(21:27):
voiceless, addressing the issueof climate change and the
degradation of God's first giftto us in the creation, the good
and beautiful creation, and thenalso addressing issues around
violence and militarism.
You know that these thingsseparate us from the way of
Jesus.
(21:51):
So, as the denomination sort ofpulled this apart and created
the work you know, kind of tookthe overture and then designed
it into a ministry work plan.
Right, it got designed intothree major focuses
congregational vitality,addressing issues of poverty,
addressing issues of racism andhow that those things you know
again pull us away from the wayof Jesus.
(22:11):
And then these intersectingareas around looking at issues
of militarism, violence, issuesaround the climate crisis and
then around gender justice andheteropatriarchy.
So you've been, you know, inthe thick of it, corey working.
Can you talk about what thisfocus on intersectionality means
(22:32):
for ministry and how that showsup, and what are good practices
around intersectionality inministry?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Well, well, let me just kind of share a quick story
.
If you would, or started tobecome part of our colloquial
(23:03):
vocabulary really back in the90s Kimberly Krenschoff sort of
is recognized as a key personwho coined it.
That said and this comes backto what we were just talking
about before, there areindividuals and communities that
are experiencing not shalom butinjustice, that are
(23:30):
experiencing oppression, thatare experiencing not having
access to the things like youknow me, a middle class
heterosexual white guy, may havemore access to and ease with
than many other communities andindividuals would have.
And when we look at that, whenwe look at why that's happening,
(23:59):
there can become severaldifferent, both social and
personal influences.
Forces that make that true andI think that's what she and
others were pointing at is thatthere are issues of a person's
race and their background, thereare issues of a person's
economic status and what thatmeans.
There are that where they livein the world, that, that, that
(24:22):
where they live in the world.
You know all of these piecesthat when, if, when you look at
that one individual or that onecommunity, you have to
understand those larger forcesthat are at work that prevent
wholeness, well-being, shalomand shalomification in that
(24:43):
person's life or in thatcommunity's life, and so wanting
to help us in our discipleship,grow more attuned and aware to
those bigger forces that giveshape to this condition, rather
than the easy thing is oh, lookat that individual and shouldn't
(25:06):
we have sympathy for thatperson because they're in a?
No, there's actually, in mostcases there are sets of
conditions that make anindividual's or community's
situation as it is, and so thereason why I'm saying that is in
part because take one simpleexample of I shouldn't say
(25:30):
simple, but an example one of myfavorite social enterprises
that's happening in the churchis in our colleagues
Presbyterian NewcastlePresbytery.
It's a thing called the KitchenCollective.
So I'm sharing this to describesome of these intersections.
(25:55):
So the Kitchen Collective was afirst started as a Methodist
church.
Chelsea Snyder, by the way, ifyou want to connect with her, is
a key leader for the KitchenCollective Started with a
Methodist church who said youknow, as a church we have this
really fabulous commercialkitchen that we use twice a week
(26:17):
.
There's another hundred oddhours that this could be used
outside of this and I wonder ifsomebody else could use it.
So, and what happened from thatis that there were people in
the community who wanted todevelop new businesses.
(26:38):
Who wanted to whether it's afood truck or a bakery or some
kind of food service, and thiswas their way of generating
economic income and contributingto the community.
Or people who were not white,they were African-American or
(27:08):
Indian-American or others thatwanted to get into this business
.
But the system creates a barthat we're investing in the
capital to have access tocommercial grade facilities that
would allow this business toactually function in that whole
(27:30):
system is too high for acommunity to jump over.
And so what the church did wasto say, hey, look what we got,
we could make this available toothers.
Say, hey, look what we got, wecould make this available to
others.
And what that did was to createa systemic interruption in the
way that the economy of thisplace was set up, so that, you
(27:53):
know, a person who wanted tomake falafel available to a
broad community could do that.
The church made it possible.
They created this relationship.
Soon that Methodist churchturned into that Methodist
church and ate foodentrepreneurs.
And then the Presbyteriansjumped in.
(28:15):
So you know, the Presbyterianchurch did the same thing.
They did that with another setof food entrepreneurs.
Last time I talked with Chelsea.
She said, even though we've gotthree churches that are making
their kitchens available for allof these entrepreneurs, she
said we still have 28 businesseson the waiting list wanting to
do this.
And that was an innovation ofan individual congregation
(28:39):
saying we got something we couldshare with others.
But part of you see, that's anindividual act of saying, hey,
we got something we could sharewith others.
But part of you see, that's anindividual act of saying, hey,
we got something we could sharewith somebody else.
But it has a systemicinterruption in an economy for a
community, especially for manyof these communities who come
from communities who don't haveaccess to that kind of capital.
(29:02):
That could happen and to beginto be able to see that these
communities' race, immigrationand background is connected to
the economy and how the economyis set up to allow some to be in
and some to be out.
And the church has a way ofreading that and taking an
(29:23):
individual act that actually hassystemic consequences.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I think reading that intersectionally is really
useful and I realized that wasyou know, a church shows up in
the community.
Because they paid attention,you know, getting back to that
first piece of Matthew 25.
(29:49):
They paid attention to theircommunity, they saw something
that was going on.
They were in conversation withsomeone and found out about this
and said, oh, we have a way tomeet that need, we have a way to
be in partnership.
And it's not about us, and it'snot for our growth, and it's
not for we're giving this away.
(30:10):
You know, we're doing it incomplete humility, selflessness,
service.
Right, we're not doing this todo what we need to do, but I bet
those congregations, theirvitality grew yeah exactly One
of the things that we seeFascinating.
And also created partnership,probably between those
congregations.
Like I loved when I served inAlbany Presbyterian, the
(30:35):
downtown churches in Albany hada like a little organization
that they ran called FocusChurches, and I'm sure Focus
stood for something, but it wasecumenical again.
But what they said was oh, wehave all this poverty going on
in the downtown corridor of thecity of Albany Homelessness,
(30:56):
food insecurity, need to doliteracy programs with children
and there's no way onecongregation can tackle all that
stuff on their own.
And so you know it's the, it's,you know the Presbyterians and
the Methodists and the Baptistsand the Episcopalians and it's,
it's a whole group of them, uh,doing this work, uh, together in
(31:20):
community, uh, for a communityimpact.
My home church that I grew up inwas involved in Family Promise,
which is a ministry that stillcontinues with homeless families
, and we did all sorts ofministry and it was interfaith.
When I was growing up we dideverything with the synagogue
across the street from us and Iremember that just making a huge
(31:41):
impression on me when I wasgrowing up at my home church
that we don't, we didn't,address community issues on our
own.
We did them with our neighborsright across the street at the
synagogue, right.
So I, I love that that piece,and so sometimes maybe we think
like intersectionality is somenew thing that we have to do.
But it's actually kind of likewho we are if we go back and
read the tape, right, I mean, myhome church was doing
(32:04):
intersectionality back in the80s but they weren't calling it
that.
They were just like oh, we workwith neighbors across the
street right and so and I'mgrateful also, you know, for the
work of naming what you knowintersectionality is and
explaining it as well.
That's also so importantbecause these pieces help us
(32:24):
grow in faithfulness.
That's really important.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
And if you treat them as, if you treat these things
as issues rather than asincarnate manifestations in the
life of a person and community,then you can go on your own sort
of intellectual project.
That's interesting, but I thinkpart of what being a disciple
of Jesus means is that all ofthese things show up in
(32:50):
incarnate manifestations in thelife of people, and we're about
people who want to createconditions that look more like
shalom than that look likedisparity and difficulty and
inequity of access.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Right right, right right.
Creating community, communitywellness creating thriving right
, yes, go ahead, go ahead.
One more thing.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Oh, it's so fun.
I know one more thing, oh, it'sso fun.
So you know, I've I've sharedwith some others that I'm on a.
I have a mission to add a newverb to the Oxford English
dictionary, and the verb isshalomify.
Because shalom is, you know, we, we think of it as a quality,
or an adjective or a or a nounthe presence of wholeness and
(33:44):
right, relationship andwell-being, beyond just our own
individual piece andcharacteristic.
But it's a communal quality.
And so, you know, as we look atdiminishing the forces of
racism, diminishing the forcesof economic disparity,
diminishing the forces ofheteropatriarchy and gender
(34:04):
difference, it's diminishingthese things we're building
wholeness, well-being.
And so, anyway, I, like the, Ilike you, want to write to our
Oxford English Dictionarywriters, maybe members of our
country.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Listening to this podcast will start a petition
for your verb to go into thedictionary.
I know you like to make upwords, corey, so thank you for
giving us one of your made upwords on the podcast.
Well, I just I know we'regetting close to time here
ending, and there's anotherpodcast I listen to all the time
(34:42):
.
It's called Outrage andOptimism, and it's a really
great podcast, great title,right.
It's led by some folks who workat the United Nations, and
Christina Figueres is one of theleads on it.
She helped get the ParisClimate Accords over the finish
line in 2015 with the UnitedNations.
It has become, you know, one ofour global targets on how we
(35:06):
heal heal the earth, heal thecreation and she wrote a book
about their experience calledthe Future we Choose, and I
loved how she wrote it becauseit's so.
Now, I know she's not aPresbyterian, but it's very
aligned with reformed theology.
Right, that God acts and werespond.
You know it's about our choices, of how we show up and respond
(35:28):
to God's action in our worlds.
I enjoy listening to the podcastand listening to what they're
up to, but they have a closingquestion that I really like, and
so I'm using it during thispodcast series.
I've stolen it from theirpodcast.
But the question they askpeople, of course, is off their
title what are you outragedabout and what are you
(35:48):
optimistic about Now?
Of course, their question is topeople working in areas around
the climate crisis, but a morenuanced or sort of calmer,
perhaps Presbyterian, way ofasking that question is like
what's making you challenged inyour work or optimistic, or
where does total depravity showup?
(36:08):
Or where's the Holy Spirit?
So I'm just curious as I askthat question like where's the
challenge and where's the bluesky right in the work and the
ministry you do?
On behalf of the PCUSA.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, thank you.
That's great.
So I think that it's easier forme to talk about the blue sky.
But that brings into view thechallenge as they are supporting
and engaging with theircongregations, new worshiping
communities and their leaders,the way in which there is a
(37:14):
growing openness to buildingmodes of engagement and support
for people that are not justtrying to do stronger, better,
higher, louder what they'vealways done, just trying to do
stronger, better, higher, louderwhat they've always done.
So the, the, the openness tocreate and to create new
pathways forward for folks.
And the big challenge I thinkin that is that, as part of
creating those new pathwaysforward, there's also saying
(37:38):
goodbye to ways that have beenand there's.
I don't know that we are.
You know, as a community, thatwe have gotten, that we have
built our capacity to, in ahealthy, faithful and holistic
way, recognize well when a wayof being or a congregation or a
(38:07):
committee, or a part of ourmission or ministry needs to
conclude, needs to end, needs tobe modified and needs to be
honored in its completion.
All of these things are allmanifestations of the church,
are not eternal.
While you know, while you know,the gospel of Jesus Christ may
(38:28):
have an eternal quality to it.
The way in which it gets livedout is not eternal, and so these
we're all in a life cycle andbeing able to do that well and
healthfully, to say well, thankyou, Thanks be to God for this
ministry and what it's done andhow it's developed, and allow it
(38:49):
to conclude in a positive,faithful way and while at the
same time welcoming new ways ofbeing, new ways of being engaged
, new communities of people, etcetera.
I think creating that balance,that kind of ecosystem, is a
(39:12):
pretty massive challenge andmany of us like to operate in
one or the other.
And many of us like to operatein one or the other Right.
But I think one of theblessings of being part of a
presbytery is you get to see,you get to operate in a field of
vision where you're seeing itboth happen all the time.
Right, there is newness andgrowth and new ways of being and
(39:35):
new worshiping communities andnew manifestations of the
mission of God in the world, andthere are ways in which endings
need to happen well andfaithfully and hopefully.
And wow, that's a massivechallenge, but that's part of
what God is trying to call us to, not only through this passage,
but just through life andministry, is inhabiting the
(39:59):
spirit, of inhabiting theslipstream of the Holy Spirit,
if you will, to the best of ourability.
And I know this isn't theparticular scripture passage we
were talking about today, but myfavorite book of the Bible
right now is the book of Acts,yeah, the book of Acts and the
(40:20):
ways in which I mean you see itmanifest, even a simple passage
in Acts 16, you see, you knowPaul and others going on an
excursion that they thought wasgoing to work the way it worked
last time and it doesn't work.
And even the Holy Spirit saysno, don't do it, you're
(40:41):
forbidden to do this.
So they have to find acompletely different way and
when they do, they find acompletely different leader that
they would ever expect, andLydia in Philippi, who becomes
the founding pastor of thatchurch in that region, and she's
completely the unexpectedperson that would that would
show up.
So sometimes God is doing this.
(41:03):
No, no, no, no, we're not doingthat anymore to create a new
way.
And man, that's hard for ussometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Right Sorry, that was a lot of words no, no, no, god,
closing one door so we can findthe other door right in our
ministry.
And it is hard, and I alwayslike to remind people.
You know, we've been at thisfollowing Jesus thing for 2000
plus years at this point, right,and so think of all the
manifestations of that.
(41:32):
It's kind of hard to wrap yourmind around.
And and it's global right.
So all the way people show upand engage in the way of Jesus
in languages and in culturesthat are not ours at all, that
are so different.
I had a.
I still have it.
It's a folder I my second callin ministry.
I printed off all these imagesthat I found on Google of people
(41:54):
taking communion all over theworld and we would hang them up
all around the sanctuary onWorld Communion Sunday.
And I mean they are so diverse.
You know there's one of amilitary chaplain giving
communion before a group ofsoldiers go off on a raid during
the Vietnam War, and there's awoman on her deathbed who's
emaciated and has cancer.
(42:15):
And there's an Orthodox woman inRussia taking communion from a
spoon, because it's given on asilver spoon, literally from the
priest, the host, and you knowa community of little children
having first communion and theway we might see it in our
churches and the idea what Iwanted my church to see was
(42:35):
we're part of a global churchand a global representation of
Jesus.
Look at all the ways justcommunion shows up, like today,
in the church and like it says,like open our mind, open our
ways of seeing the way theworship of God and faithfulness
to Jesus is showing up in thisact of communion.
Right, and I always I show itaround, sometimes on World
(42:56):
Communion Sunday, if I happen tobe preaching, and it's always a
good exercise for a church toremember that we're, you know,
we're part of such a biggerproject.
Right, that visual image justtells it, tells it all, right,
so so we leave everyone withthose ideas.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Way bigger than us.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yes, yeah, bigger than us as we start the new year
.
Corey, so grateful for you.
Thank you for being on thepodcast.
Thank you for being on thepodcast and we're so grateful
for the work you do in thelarger church, the Matthew 25
ministry that we're all a partof as we orient ourselves in
this new year, and thanks somuch for being part of
connecting our conversations.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yeah, god bless you in this new year and God bless
the Presbytery of Southern NewEngland as you Shalomify the
world, thanks be to.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
God, thank you.
We will work on Shalomifyingthis.
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