February 17, 2025 • 36 mins
The PSNE's All-Presbytery Antiracism Training with Rev. Dr. William Yoo is coming up on March 1, 2025.
In this episode of Connecting our Conversations, Rev. Nancy Baseel and Rev. Kevin White chat with Rev. Dr. William Yoo about the PSNE’s upcoming Antiracism Training, where Dr. Yoo will be our keynote speaker. We talk a bit about Dr. Yoo’s historical work and how that intersects with the Church in our time and place, and get a preview of what we can expect at the training. Registration link below.
Dr. William Yoo is the Associate Professor of American Religious and Cultural History at Columbia Theological Seminary, where he is also the Director of the M.Div. Program.
He is the author of What Kind of Christianity: A History of Slavery and Anti-Black Racism in the Presbyterian Church (winner of the 2023 Award of Excellence from the Religion Communicators Council), and most recently Reckoning with History: Settler Colonialism, Slavery, and the Making of American Christianity.
“As a teacher, preacher, and scholar, Yoo focuses on the history of racism in American Christianity. He is a professor and public theologian who interprets the most challenging and urgent issues of racial justice with clarity, depth, honesty, and precision.” (WJK bio).
Dr Yoo has a deep commitment to researching, studying, writing about and engaging the histories of settler colonialism, racial injustice, and slavery through the lens of Christianity; and his work invites the alignment of the Gospel with the work of liberation through an honest assessment of the church’s role in these forms of oppression in the United States.
Rev. Nancy Baseel and Rev. Kevin White are the co-chairs of the Presbytery of Southern New England’s Antiracism and Equity Team. Rev. Nancy Baseel is the pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Hartford CT; and Rev. Kevin White is the pastor of Calvin Presbyterian Church, Cumberland RI.
PSNE Antiracism Training is Saturday, March 1 at New Haven Korean Presbyterian Church. Click here for the registration link.
Participation is open to anyone in the Presbytery!
This training fulfills the antiracism training required once every three years by the PSNE Antiracism Policy for all active Teaching Elders, Certified Ruling Elders, Inquirers and Candidates under care, and those engaged in Presbytery ministry service (serving on commissions, committees, teams, pulpit supply, etc – see page 5 of the policy).
Read the PSNE Antiracism Policy here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
the cloud, all right, so welcome everyone.
I'm Reverend Nancy Basile fromFirst Presbyterian Church of
Hartford, where I serve as thepastor.
I use she and her pronouns andI am here with my friend,
reverend Kevin White, the pastorof Calvin Presbyterian Church
in Cumberland, rhode Island.
(00:20):
The pastor of CalvinPresbyterian Church in
Cumberland, rhode Island, andthis is Connecting Our
Conversations.
This is our podcast space forconnecting conversations that
push the edges of our faith andhelp us to deepen our
discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
body of the PCUSA, thePresbyterian Church USA, so we
(00:46):
are glad you're here joining usfor this podcast this evening.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hello everyone, this is Kevin I use he and him
pronouns.
Nancy and I are also the co-chairs of the Presbytery of
Southern New England'sAnti-Racism and Equity Team and
we are excited to bring you thispodcast episode.
It's as both a reminder of anda little promo about our
Presbytery's upcominganti-racism training on Saturday
(01:11):
March 1st at New Haven KoreanPresbyterian Church.
One aspect of our Presbytery'santi-racism policy is that we
will be holding these trainingsannually.
Is that we will be holdingthese trainings annually?
And just a reminder to everyonelistening that with our policy,
anti-racism training is nowrequired at least once every
three years for all teachingelders in the Presbytery, those
(01:34):
who are inquirers and candidatesfor ordination under care and
anyone actually serving in aleadership role in the
Presbytery, so folks serving oncommittees and commissions,
those and those sorts of things.
You can register for thetraining at psneorg I'm not sure
if it's on the front page ofthat, but you can find it
certainly under the teams linkand just select the anti-racism
(01:57):
and equity team and we will alsosee about getting a link to the
registration in the show notesas well.
And we are joined today byReverend Dr William Yu William,
I believe, is how he likes to becalled and known.
William will be our keynotepresenter at this upcoming
(02:18):
anti-racism training event, sowe are excited to have you here
with us right now.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, thank you, I am excited to be here.
Yes, I do.
I'm glad for us to go by firstname basis.
My name is William Yu.
I've been teaching for roughlya dozen years at Columbia
Theological Seminary in Decatur,georgia.
It is one of our PCUSA, is oneof our PCUSA seminaries.
My pronouns are he, him, andI'm going to be as ready as I
(02:48):
can.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nancy and Kevin, for the questions you have for me.
Oh, they're so hard.
Yeah, prepare yourself.
I just want to highlight too,william, so all of our listeners
know anyone who's joining usthat you are also the author of
what Kind of Christianity?
A History of Slavery and the ohsorry, I lost the full title A
History of Slavery andAnti-Black Racism in the
Presbyterian Church.
And most recently, I think justa couple of weeks ago, your
(03:17):
second book came out, reckoningwith History, settler
Colonialism, sla slavery and themaking of American Christianity
.
You have been busy.
Both of these books werepublished by Westminster John
Knox Press.
Right, we understand, william,that you have a deep commitment
to researching and studying andwriting about and engaging the
(03:40):
histories of settler colonialism, racial injustice, chattel
slavery in the Americas throughthe lens of Christianity, and we
feel that your work invites thealignment of the gospel with
the work of liberation, withyour honest assessment of the
church's role in these forms ofoppression in our country.
(04:00):
So we welcome you.
We thank you for connectingconversations with us country so
we welcome you.
We thank you for connectingconversations with us.
Thank you, yeah, so we'd loveto hear, just to get started, a
little bit about you, who youare, what do you love, and maybe
a little bit about your day job, what's your life like?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And so, in addition to being a seminary professor, I
am a spouse.
My wife, sarah, teaches inAtlanta Public Schools and we
are the proud parents of twochildren, teenagers 16 and 14,
soon to be 17 and 14, and twocats.
And so it's a busy household.
And I'm also a minister, amember of Cherokee Presbytery,
(04:53):
here in Northwest Georgia,within our denomination, the
PCUSA, and I think one thing Iwould say is so I do think one
error, certainly within AmericanPresbyterianism, uh, in the
past and I do think this, I hope, is more the distant past than
the recent past is the notionthat, uh, the presbyterian
(05:16):
church, capital c, is the bestone, that because of our
calvinist doctrines and becauseof our theological
sophistication and biblicalinterpretive acumen, we are the
best denomination and the bestchurch and the closest to heaven
this side on earth.
I think that is a wrong view andI think even our book of order
(05:39):
in the foundations notes that weare not the best church, but we
are a church seeking to befaithful among many churches,
capital C.
But, nancy and Kevin, what Iwould also say is that I do
genuinely believe in thefullness of our past and our
present and our future, awardsand all, if you will, that which
(06:01):
is inspiring and that which isinfuriating about our past and
the tradition that has beenpassed down to us.
Nonetheless, I believe it isthe best church for me not the
best church period, and I thinkI believe probably for you too,
nancy and Kevin.
It is the best church for meand it aligns closest to my
desire to enact God's justice,love, righteousness, mercy and
(06:24):
kindness on earth with fellowbelievers who are similarly
committed.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So that's the first thing I would start when you're
asking about me.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, not the best church, but it is the best
church for me and I do believethat there is a lot of good in
us and that can be done throughus.
But I imagine, as we keeptalking, you also and I I've
written about and I studied thatit's not all good, um, and how
do we wrestle with that, whichis bad?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
yeah, oh, that's a william.
That's a great segue because,uh, I wanted to to ask you, uh,
about, um, your your book, what,what kind of of christian?
And maybe a little bit, if youcould share a little bit about
what led you to this work andhow you came to research for
what became this book.
And, again, this is a book thatwe've been encouraging everyone
(07:18):
that we can in our presbyteryto read, so I'd love to hear a
little bit just about how thisbook came to be.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Oh yeah, thank you, kevin.
So initially I desired to writea book across I guess what we
will call the academy for mystudents and my colleagues and
peers who are studying churchhistory, religion, theology and
(07:50):
the like, but also that would befor churches, for people who
are worshiping and livingtogether in churches and pastors
who are called to lead anddirect these churches.
And so it was.
Initially I wanted to write ahistory of both racial justice
and injustice, like how do weexplain this history of racism?
(08:13):
And then I narrowed it down toslavery, in part because I found
it to be such an oxymoron, thisnotion, that there was a strong
like a phenomenon ofpro-slavery Christianity.
I'm not the one who came upwith that term, and it is
actually well known in history.
(08:34):
Go to any library catalog andtype up pro-slavery theology,
christianity, and you will getsadly right Nancy and Kevin
Hundreds, if not thousands ofhits For sure.
Because, pro-slaveryChristianity was a thing and it
was what people of faith ofseveral different Christian
denominations held to the beliefthat slavery was divinely
(08:56):
ordained.
And from that, for readers ofthat book, in defending slavery
it did require racism and thesense of it required the notion
that God created some races tobe superior than other races.
That, in line with some ofthese white Presbyterian pastors
(09:16):
and theologians, it was theidea that God did not create
African Americans or Africanswho were then forcibly
transported to these shores tolive among white people with the
same capacities and abilitiesfor freedom in our quote-unquote
(09:37):
civilization.
So, kevin and Nancy, I justreally wanted to study where did
that came from and how did thatcome to be.
And I write in the book I justreally wanted to study when did
that came from and how did thatcome to be.
And I write in the book.
I found the strongest argumentand the argument that I
inherited and I learned and Iwill also say I did not learn
very much about this at all.
The little bit I did learn wasthat it was a problem of
(10:00):
biblical interpretation.
Problem of biblicalinterpretation.
You see, the white SouthernPresbyterian clergy and the
white Northern clergy whoquietly, or sometimes even more
loudly, supported them.
It is because they did not havethe right tools to interpret
the Bible, or it is because ofbiblical literalism.
(10:21):
Yeah, and so that was.
It was like a, it was abiblical interpretive problem.
And so what that does, though,kevin and Nancy, is that it
makes it it wasn't a moralproblem then, or it was less.
You know, it was less aneconomic problem, a cultural
problem, a racial problem.
The problem was they didn'tread, get the Bible.
They didn't read the Bibleright, and what I will say to
(10:43):
end this question, kevin, iswhat I found is that that is
true.
They did not read the Bibleright.
But, I wanted to know why, and Ifound that the answer had to be
more than just literalism.
It had to be more than thatthey were captive to for the
pastors who are listening andinformed ruling elders and
others that they were captive tothat Greek word, doulos.
That meant servant or slave,and it was like that's were
(11:04):
captive to that Greek worddoulos that meant servant or
slave, and it was like that'sthe reason why that that word
was there.
The Apostle Paul seems toendorse slavery, and and that's
it Part of the world order.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And so what I found is that they did come to that
conclusion.
But I wanted to know why, and Iwanted to study what was going
on racially, what was going oneconomically and politically and
the like that there wereconcern, political concerns,
about the union staying together.
What if?
What if we took more of anabolitionist position?
What would happen to thesouthern states?
(11:36):
What would happen to oureconomy, not just with
agriculture in the south, butmanufacturing in the north,
where the cotton came from, andwhat happens with the cotton and
where it goes?
I hope that's a good answer,kevin, to kind of why I wanted
to write that book.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, that, what if?
Question?
That can lead us to good placesand that can lead us to
constrict and turn inward, butit can also lead us to turn
outward.
What if things were different?
What if we were working in adifferent way together?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, that's great, you're right.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's good, kevin.
So what I will say to that realquick is that it's not only
what if, kevin?
That there were and I hope topoint out in that book and in
the book that just came out,there are actually strong,
vociferous, powerful, smart,like energizing, inspiring
Presbyterian abolitionists.
Certainly there were BlackPresbyterian abolitionists, like
(12:38):
the formerly enslaved man JamesWC Pennington and others, but
there were also whitePresbyterian leaders who did
have moral clarity and whounderstood, despite what the
cost might be politically,culturally, economically slavery
is an affront against God andit goes against God's creative
(13:00):
order.
Nancy, to your point, but thisisn't.
We don't live in an orderlyworld.
We actually have inherited adisorderly, immoral world
because of the transatlanticslave trade and it's what was
ongoing in the 1830s and thelike.
So what I will say is that,yeah, it's not all bad.
For example, in the book I notewhat is inspiring to me is that
(13:23):
the American Anti-SlaverySociety, founded in roughly 1833
, 1834, by William LloydGarrison and other abolitionists
, the executive, and it becamethe largest national
abolitionist organization withbig dreams to end slavery and
racial discrimination, theexecutive committee and
(13:43):
committee.
That rings true to us asPresbyterians.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
We do genuinely believe God works in committees
and plurality and discernment atleast.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And it might be more, but what I can verify, nancy
and Kevin, six of the 12founding executive committee
members were Presbyterian,presbyterian clergy and lay
leaders.
Now, because of that, they werenot very influential in the
denomination but they wereinfluential in the abolitionist
movement.
So I do think I point to thatto say the problem wasn't
reformed theology.
The problem wasn't that theyhad inherited and were
(14:22):
practicing a reformedtheological approach that was
like against like doing good insociety, that was against
faithful civic civil engagement.
They were inspired.
They were inspired by theliberative promises of Jesus
Christ and counting the cost ofdiscipleship.
That's why they joined thisexecutive committee when we're
(14:44):
so passionate about abolitionism.
So the problem wasn't reformtheology.
The problem wasn't necessarilyPresbyterian polity Really like
those weren't it?
The problem was not anythinginherent to reform their
Presbyterian traditions.
The problem was thoseindividual Presbyterians who
(15:05):
were complicit or activelyparticipated in like slavery and
other racial oppressions.
They didn't do these thingsbecause they were Presbyterian
or because they were reformed.
They did these things that wereevil because they had for one,
they had some economic stakes init.
I was going to say yeah, yeah,certainly one, they had some
(15:28):
economic stakes in it, I wasgonna say, yeah, yeah, certainly
.
But two also, they opted for amore moderating, less courageous
position to preserve not thepurity but the peace and the
unity of the church.
They did make decisions and mypoint there is that I because
kevin and nancy, I know I'mgoing on I will say before
writing the book, when I toldpeople what I was writing on,
for many presbyterians I met inchurches, that was their first
(15:50):
impulse.
You know, it's because ofreformed theology, it is because
we have inherited this kind offrozen, chosen civic passivity
like human depravity.
We don't really believe like wecan do good and the world can
change, like, and so that was soin the water and just what I
found was that those were notthe problems.
(16:11):
Certainly we can, like, engage,how, sometimes not every.
I don't want to make everythinggood about reformed theology
and presbyterian polity, butwhat I want to say is that I
don't see them as the primaryculprits, if you will yeah of
this horrible legacy sure, sureno did you?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
yeah, that's your second book, um, reckoning with
history, build on some of theoriginal.
I know we, I from reading yourfirst book.
I know that you talked indetail and gave a really
beautiful um, what's the word Iwant to say?
Like you, you, in in greatdetail, you covered where
Presbyterians were present inthe abolition movements.
(16:53):
Does reckoning with historytake us into modern day?
Tell, yeah, tell us a littlebit about where, where that book
carries on from your first book.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Oh, yeah, thank you.
Oh yeah, thank you, nancy, fromyour first book.
Oh yeah, thank you, are related.
Oh yeah, thank you, nancy.
Um, so it is a.
It is a more ambitious,ambitious book.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Uh, maybe two, two all right at least two, kevin
and nancy first one is ambitious, one is I will take scope right
it does really cover AmericanProtestant Christianity across
several and all the majormainstream denominations.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It is not a like one denominational, like history
right way to put it.
But it permitted me to reallylook at, for example, indigenous
rights activism and theabolitionist movements more in
full, because I wasn't lookingat them to find who were the
(17:53):
Presbyterians who were involved,I really was just looking at
them and analyzing their moral,religious, theological and
Christian arguments.
So one thing I will say in bothmovements what is again
refreshingly inspiring is thathow much the opposition to the
Indian Removal Act of 1830, thatultimately led to the sad and
(18:18):
horrible tragedy of the Trail ofTears and the state where I
reside, now Georgia, much of theopposition and activism for it
drew on Christian resources, itdrew on the Bible.
Jeremiah Everts, who was a man,a lawyer, who became a leading
(18:38):
kind of missionary agencyexecutive, jeremiah Everts, with
the American Board ofCommissioners for Foreign
Missions, which was founded bysome Williams College graduates,
some young men, in 1810, 1811,1812.
They sent lots of missionariesabroad.
I think they were the firstmissionary organization to send
(18:59):
missionaries to, for example,asia.
I think some of you might knowthe Baptist, anne Hazeltine and
Adirondack Judson, for example.
Ok anyways.
But yeah, he really believedthrough his work because then at
that point they really did,maybe not quite as foreign
(19:19):
mission, but they did understandmission to various indigenous
nations as a kind ofinternational might not be the
right word, but transnationalendeavor that they recognize
that the Cherokees for word, buttransnational endeavor that
they recognize that theCherokees, for example, were
their own nation and so and itwas mission work and the like.
So again, it really is likethis is the call of the gospel,
that we are called, certainly asChristians in the United States
(19:41):
, to oppose unjust laws and theabolitionist movement as well.
Very inspiring because of howmuch in fact pro-slavery
Christianity grew so much inresponse to the abolitionist
movement.
Real quick, yeah, I noted inwhat kind of Christianity as
well.
So I think and maybe I'll endthis question this way I think
(20:04):
we understand pro-slaveryChristianity like going up on an
incline or no, going down on adecline.
That, yeah, a long time agothey didn't know any better in
the 17th century, so they reallybelieved that slavery was
ordained by God.
And then, as time went alongand then the United States
Revolutionary War became its ownnation, there was more
(20:26):
illumination and eventually itkind of declined and declined
and it chipped away as theyunderstood more, as they I think
this is Maya Angelou as theyknew better, they did better.
But what I find is that'sactually the inverse that
initially there was a lot ofthere were not strong
pro-slavery arguments, becausethere was something in the
(20:49):
consciousness of colonists andearly white Americans to say
this is not right.
We've inherited this and thereare some challenges to
emancipation in terms of how dowe create a racially just
society when there are alreadyat that point in the 1780s, 90s,
generations of enslaved blackpeople.
(21:10):
But it was really like manypastors didn't want to put their
name on a sermon or on atreatise that actually used the
Bible to rigorously defendslavery.
But what happened is theabolitionist movement got really
good at appealing to like Luke,chapter four, got really good
at looking at Jubilee and theOld Testament this is the white
(21:32):
Quaker, angelina, emily Grimkeand they kept making arguments
from the Bible to say slavery iswrong and we should be for
abolition.
So what that demanded andrequired was an equally like,
rigorous, strong Christianresponse.
Right, and so sadly, nancy andkevin, where did wealthy
(21:52):
enslavers and enablers ofslavery turn to?
Hey, the abolitionist movementis really drawing on the bible
and christian resources.
You know who needs to defendthis for us.
It is the clergy pastors.
Who else but pastors canactually like provide retorts
when Frederick Douglass andWilliam Lloyd Garrison keep
(22:13):
appealing to our Christian Bible?
So in that way I know I'm alittle off, nancy and Kevin.
It is to note that, and againfor me what I would say Nancy
and Kevin, is that it does notexcuse what happened, but my
purpose is I want to explainwhat happened and that it wasn't
like this, like, oh, theybelieved in the curse of Ham
(22:34):
from Genesis 9, or they believedin the doctrine of discovery.
Those papal bulls from the late1490s that divided in some ways
evangelization and colonialismfrom the Roman Catholic Church
between Portugal and Spain, andI think we've learned some about
the doctrine of discovery curseof Ham.
Like I just don't think thatthese things that were inherited
(22:56):
fully explain what happened.
I think, like I'm sharing withyou now it is to look at the
quotidian or the ordinary.
Like again, I'm not trying toget these white pastors who
defended slavery off the hook,but Nancy and Kevin, we can
understand.
Let's say, you or I are in achurch in 1840 in my state of
(23:18):
Georgia.
It is like what are theparishioners demanding of me?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Like they are like yeah, we know that.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, what are the war?
What?
Certainly what can't I say.
I think we know that, kevin andnancy.
But my point in studying thehistory is actually, again, not
to defend it and excuse it.
It was and I write it inReckoning with History.
It was a viable pathway toministerial success and, I'm sad
(23:50):
to say, a bigger church, right.
How does one get into a biggerchurch?
It is, one acquires areputation as a public intellect
who is a skilled defender ofslavery.
And what does it require to isa skilled defender of slavery?
And what does it require to bea skilled defender of slavery?
It does require getting reallygood at white supremacy from a
Christian perspective and makingracist arguments.
(24:15):
And so it is sad that, kevin,your point about the what if?
Like I write in that book look,the greatest tragedy of slavery
are the destroyed dreams andlivelihood and abuses toward
enslaved people, women, men andchildren.
But I do think a lesser tragedyis how it destroyed the
(24:35):
morality and the theologicalwork of generations of white
clergy and theologian, thesebright men who were really smart
.
They are sophisticated men whowrote like, really like, again,
it's like weird, right.
They wrote really like, smart,immoral arguments from the Bible
(24:57):
to defense.
They had an answer for everyabolitionist critique.
You've got this verse, I've gotthat verse.
Sure, so right, kevin and Nancy, I think what would have
happened if they could haveactually been free to preach and
write without.
Yeah, but again, that's not thegreatest tragedy.
But again, in talking with youand I hope what I'm getting at
(25:19):
is that, like, I hope that thisis the work and the conversation
that we can have together yeah,right, I will say, like kevin
and nancy, I'll ask you all.
I think a generation ago, andmaybe it's still true now I
think one big challenge toanti-racism and racial justice
is we need to talk about it.
(25:39):
No one wanted to talk about it.
I do think now there is moreopenness and willingness to talk
about it, so we're makingprogress.
But what I also want to say,kevin and Nancy, is that the
next step to me is we need totalk better about it.
In Reckoning with History, Iwrite like we should prioritize
(26:01):
responsibility and repair overguilt and shame.
Yeah, I don't think you and Iand this is I get this from the
Pequot Massachusetts ministerWilliam Appes in 1835 and 36,
when he speaks before whiteaudiences in Portsmouth, new
Hampshire and Boston,massachusetts.
He says you and I are notguilty for our fathers and I'll
(26:24):
use the word ancestors' crimes.
Like we're not guilty.
We should give thanks that weare not guilty for the sins of
those who live before us.
But he also points out, we areresponsible to repair the
inherited mistakes that we'vegiven.
His point in 1835 is we stilllive in a messy world of settler
, colonialism and slavery.
We're not guilty for their sins, but we are responsible to
(26:49):
repair this world that god iscalling us to, and that's my
hope for us.
And when I meet you all, like Idon't, I don't.
I think history has beenmisused to induce guilt, but I
also think history has beenmisused to induce guilt, but I
also think history has beenmisused to conceal sin.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Like all of it.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So how do we have a better conversation?
And I'm curious, Nancy andKevin, how you all kind of
understand all of this work.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, I love your the language of responsibility as
opposed to guilt and and shame,as you were talking a little bit
ago.
I was thinking one, and evenjust hearing this little
synopsis from you just now.
But certainly, reading the bookand I'm looking forward to
(27:35):
reading Reckoning with Historytoo is, on the one hand, hearing
your perspective on it.
There's a warning, I think, forus in our time right, when are
we in danger?
Where might I be making thesame mistake that those pastors
in the 17 and 1800s did?
(27:56):
For, you know, in those smalldecisions that seem like well,
all right, you know, in thosesmall decisions that seem like
well, all right, I'll, I'll,I'll, kind of you know, just for
the sake of today, you know,but then those, those, they,
they grow.
So there's kind of that warning,but there's also in in hearing
you talk about history and thatit wasn't inevitable, which on
(28:17):
the one hand, I can look backand just it's heartbreaking of,
because you're what could havebeen.
But that also means that we canmake different choices.
Now, right, if we look back andsay different choices could
have been made, then it wasn'tinevitable.
There's a tragedy in that, butthere's also a hope for us.
Now we can look back and saybut we can make courageous
(28:39):
choices now, because that's theresponsibility and I actually
find I find a lot of hope in inthat that I can make what is the
responsible, good, lovingchoice.
I can make courageous choicetoday, not not even tomorrow or
the next day, but today.
(29:00):
And then how will that build ontomorrow and so on.
So yeah, I don't know, nancy.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We are trying to decolonize our presbytery.
We are trying to decolonizeourselves and our churches and
to like.
I think one of the mostvaluable things that came out of
my particular congregation'sreading of your book was
conversations about the forms ofcolonization that we
participate in on a regularbasis, because it helped us
(29:30):
sharpen our skills atidentifying those places of
power, imbalances and oppressionthat we're living with now, and
learning about the history ofthat enabled us to put to see
through a new lens that feltmore honest and true.
My particular context is alittle different from Kevin's
and so far as my churches, um,uh, the greatest percentage of
(29:54):
our churches, um, people who'vecome from other countries, who
were raised with Presbyterianismas a form of of the spiritual
form of colonialism.
Um, so they werePresbyterianism was forced upon
the ancestors of many of thecongregants of my church, but
now they claim it in 2025 forthemselves and their children,
and they come to this church onpurpose, knowing the history of
(30:17):
how it was received.
Um, and there are people whowant to do that with
conversation, with lament, withhonest, open eyes about how the
rubber is hitting the road forthem as Presbyterians in this
era.
So your book has helped ourchurch a ton to have those
conversations and we're reallyexcited to continue at the
(30:38):
training.
I'm aware of our timing hereand so I want to.
I know I'm like I've been asked.
Crescent Terry, we are sograteful for our time with you
and we want to just invite youto share very briefly what you
think would be your hope for ourgathering together on March 1st
when we are in our training.
(31:02):
That's the we decided beforethe podcast started the
training's kind of a funny wordour convening of this
conversation.
What are you, what do you sortof hope for or imagine for that
day as you join the Presbyteryof Southern New England for a
conversation about anti-racismwork in the church?
Oh yeah, thanks, nancy aboutanti-racism work in the church.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Oh yeah, thanks Nancy and thanks Kevin.
What do I?
I think one is I am excited totalk with you and be among you.
(31:41):
As joyful as it is to writebooks and certainly the
affirmation to talk with peoplewho've read it, it is a process
of a book.
It is not dialogical and it isnot organic and it does not
leave a lot of room for mutualdiscernment.
Discernment, whereas I do thinkI'm excited to get on a plane
(32:05):
and be with you all for thosereasons that where we can work
with creativity, be open to thespirits prompting and leading
and have good, sometimes hardand painful, but ultimately like
productive conversation.
And I'll end, nancy and Kevin,with saying I hope we can gather
to do the work of healingdivides, healing the many things
that divide us, so thatultimately we can move towards
(32:28):
agreeing and working together,while also recognizing that it
is an ongoing process, that toget to mutual agreement and
discernment also does have somedisagreeing, but I guess for me
I don't know I don't want us tofight about the past, I don't
(32:50):
want us to fight about criticalrace theory and DEI and all of
these things, what I do want usto fight about.
If we're going to fight, it'slike fight about what we're
going to do, because all of uswant the same thing we want to
enact God's justice.
We want different congregationsthat were called to different
things, but, like we want tofigure out how to like struggle
(33:10):
and how to learn from oneanother to do that, I'd rather
disagree about what to do ratherthan like what we believe.
Maybe we can get a littlecloser on the what we believe
part.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Right, that's a really good point, and when we
gather on the 1st we'll havesome breakout sessions during
which we will sort of get asense of what people want to do
and maybe some healthydisagreement about wrestling
with that question.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
We're so grateful for your time and excited that
you'll be with us in under amonth, on March 1st, for the
Presbytery of Southern NewEngland's anti-racism gathering.
This year we're going to be atthe New Haven Korean
Presbyterian Church.
For anybody who's listening andhasn't registered yet, we'd love
for you to join us andrecognize that the deadline for
(33:58):
registration is on February 21st, because we need to give our
host church some time to preparethe delicious food that they've
agreed to prepare for us.
As an added bonus, I want tomention, too, that William will
be with my church in Hartfordthe church that I serve in
Hartford the following day,leading worship at First
Presbyterian Church in Hartford,and Westminster Presbyterian
(34:21):
Church, which is our neighborchurch just four miles down the
road, will also be joining usthat day.
They will not have worship intheir sanctuary that day, but
they'll instead come to FirstPres Hartford and we are going
to enjoy a time of worship,joyful time of worship, singing
communion, hearing the good wordfrom you, william, and
afterwards, hopefully, havingsome direct one-on-one
(34:43):
conversations about where peopleare after this prayer weekend
together.
So I think, in all anticipation, to choose this church to be
the one where you will shareyour insight and wisdom and all
that you have acquired in yourtime of study and learning as a
(35:03):
person.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, I'm jealous.
I'm going to be heading back toRhode Island on Saturday.
I wish I could be there withy'all.
William, again, thank you forbeing willing to give us a
little teaser, a little promo,about what to expect.
One of the questions we weregoing to ask you was just what
excites you about this work, buthaving just now spent the past
half hour or so, the answerseems to be everything your
(35:29):
excitement about all of this thehistory, the theology and then
just the heart for the church toreally be the church that God
intends.
It's awesome to see.
It's infectious.
So, that's a great teaser foranybody listening to register
(35:54):
and come on out.
So again, William, thank youfor your time tonight and thank
you in advance for your timethat weekend of March 1st and
2nd, and once again, this hasbeen Connecting Our
Conversations the Presbytery ofSouthern New England's podcast
space for conversations thatpush the edges of our faith and
help us to deepen discipleship.
(36:15):
We look forward to seeingeveryone on March 1st and until
then, from myself and Nancy andWilliam, grace and peace be with
you all.
Bye.
the cloud, all right, so welcome everyone.
I'm Reverend Nancy Basile fromFirst Presbyterian Church of
Hartford, where I serve as thepastor.
I use she and her pronouns andI am here with my friend,
reverend Kevin White, the pastorof Calvin Presbyterian Church
in Cumberland, rhode Island.
(00:20):
The pastor of CalvinPresbyterian Church in
Cumberland, rhode Island, andthis is Connecting Our
Conversations.
This is our podcast space forconnecting conversations that
push the edges of our faith andhelp us to deepen our
discipleship.
The Presbytery of Southern NewEngland is a regional governing
body of the PCUSA, thePresbyterian Church USA, so we
(00:46):
are glad you're here joining usfor this podcast this evening.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hello everyone, this is Kevin I use he and him
pronouns.
Nancy and I are also the co-chairs of the Presbytery of
Southern New England'sAnti-Racism and Equity Team and
we are excited to bring you thispodcast episode.
It's as both a reminder of anda little promo about our
Presbytery's upcominganti-racism training on Saturday
(01:11):
March 1st at New Haven KoreanPresbyterian Church.
One aspect of our Presbytery'santi-racism policy is that we
will be holding these trainingsannually.
Is that we will be holdingthese trainings annually?
And just a reminder to everyonelistening that with our policy,
anti-racism training is nowrequired at least once every
three years for all teachingelders in the Presbytery, those
(01:34):
who are inquirers and candidatesfor ordination under care and
anyone actually serving in aleadership role in the
Presbytery, so folks serving oncommittees and commissions,
those and those sorts of things.
You can register for thetraining at psneorg I'm not sure
if it's on the front page ofthat, but you can find it
certainly under the teams linkand just select the anti-racism
(01:57):
and equity team and we will alsosee about getting a link to the
registration in the show notesas well.
And we are joined today byReverend Dr William Yu William,
I believe, is how he likes to becalled and known.
William will be our keynotepresenter at this upcoming
(02:18):
anti-racism training event, sowe are excited to have you here
with us right now.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, thank you, I am excited to be here.
Yes, I do.
I'm glad for us to go by firstname basis.
My name is William Yu.
I've been teaching for roughlya dozen years at Columbia
Theological Seminary in Decatur,georgia.
It is one of our PCUSA, is oneof our PCUSA seminaries.
My pronouns are he, him, andI'm going to be as ready as I
(02:48):
can.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nancy and Kevin, for the questions you have for me.
Oh, they're so hard.
Yeah, prepare yourself.
I just want to highlight too,william, so all of our listeners
know anyone who's joining usthat you are also the author of
what Kind of Christianity?
A History of Slavery and the ohsorry, I lost the full title A
History of Slavery andAnti-Black Racism in the
Presbyterian Church.
And most recently, I think justa couple of weeks ago, your
(03:17):
second book came out, reckoningwith History, settler
Colonialism, sla slavery and themaking of American Christianity
.
You have been busy.
Both of these books werepublished by Westminster John
Knox Press.
Right, we understand, william,that you have a deep commitment
to researching and studying andwriting about and engaging the
(03:40):
histories of settler colonialism, racial injustice, chattel
slavery in the Americas throughthe lens of Christianity, and we
feel that your work invites thealignment of the gospel with
the work of liberation, withyour honest assessment of the
church's role in these forms ofoppression in our country.
(04:00):
So we welcome you.
We thank you for connectingconversations with us country so
we welcome you.
We thank you for connectingconversations with us.
Thank you, yeah, so we'd loveto hear, just to get started, a
little bit about you, who youare, what do you love, and maybe
a little bit about your day job, what's your life like?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And so, in addition to being a seminary professor, I
am a spouse.
My wife, sarah, teaches inAtlanta Public Schools and we
are the proud parents of twochildren, teenagers 16 and 14,
soon to be 17 and 14, and twocats.
And so it's a busy household.
And I'm also a minister, amember of Cherokee Presbytery,
(04:53):
here in Northwest Georgia,within our denomination, the
PCUSA, and I think one thing Iwould say is so I do think one
error, certainly within AmericanPresbyterianism, uh, in the
past and I do think this, I hope, is more the distant past than
the recent past is the notionthat, uh, the presbyterian
(05:16):
church, capital c, is the bestone, that because of our
calvinist doctrines and becauseof our theological
sophistication and biblicalinterpretive acumen, we are the
best denomination and the bestchurch and the closest to heaven
this side on earth.
I think that is a wrong view andI think even our book of order
(05:39):
in the foundations notes that weare not the best church, but we
are a church seeking to befaithful among many churches,
capital C.
But, nancy and Kevin, what Iwould also say is that I do
genuinely believe in thefullness of our past and our
present and our future, awardsand all, if you will, that which
(06:01):
is inspiring and that which isinfuriating about our past and
the tradition that has beenpassed down to us.
Nonetheless, I believe it isthe best church for me not the
best church period, and I thinkI believe probably for you too,
nancy and Kevin.
It is the best church for meand it aligns closest to my
desire to enact God's justice,love, righteousness, mercy and
(06:24):
kindness on earth with fellowbelievers who are similarly
committed.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
So that's the first thing I would start when you're
asking about me.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, not the best church, but it is the best
church for me and I do believethat there is a lot of good in
us and that can be done throughus.
But I imagine, as we keeptalking, you also and I I've
written about and I studied thatit's not all good, um, and how
do we wrestle with that, whichis bad?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
yeah, oh, that's a william.
That's a great segue because,uh, I wanted to to ask you, uh,
about, um, your your book, what,what kind of of christian?
And maybe a little bit, if youcould share a little bit about
what led you to this work andhow you came to research for
what became this book.
And, again, this is a book thatwe've been encouraging everyone
(07:18):
that we can in our presbyteryto read, so I'd love to hear a
little bit just about how thisbook came to be.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Oh yeah, thank you, kevin.
So initially I desired to writea book across I guess what we
will call the academy for mystudents and my colleagues and
peers who are studying churchhistory, religion, theology and
(07:50):
the like, but also that would befor churches, for people who
are worshiping and livingtogether in churches and pastors
who are called to lead anddirect these churches.
And so it was.
Initially I wanted to write ahistory of both racial justice
and injustice, like how do weexplain this history of racism?
(08:13):
And then I narrowed it down toslavery, in part because I found
it to be such an oxymoron, thisnotion, that there was a strong
like a phenomenon ofpro-slavery Christianity.
I'm not the one who came upwith that term, and it is
actually well known in history.
(08:34):
Go to any library catalog andtype up pro-slavery theology,
christianity, and you will getsadly right Nancy and Kevin
Hundreds, if not thousands ofhits For sure.
Because, pro-slaveryChristianity was a thing and it
was what people of faith ofseveral different Christian
denominations held to the beliefthat slavery was divinely
(08:56):
ordained.
And from that, for readers ofthat book, in defending slavery
it did require racism and thesense of it required the notion
that God created some races tobe superior than other races.
That, in line with some ofthese white Presbyterian pastors
(09:16):
and theologians, it was theidea that God did not create
African Americans or Africanswho were then forcibly
transported to these shores tolive among white people with the
same capacities and abilitiesfor freedom in our quote-unquote
(09:37):
civilization.
So, kevin and Nancy, I justreally wanted to study where did
that came from and how did thatcome to be.
And I write in the book I justreally wanted to study when did
that came from and how did thatcome to be.
And I write in the book.
I found the strongest argumentand the argument that I
inherited and I learned and Iwill also say I did not learn
very much about this at all.
The little bit I did learn wasthat it was a problem of
(10:00):
biblical interpretation.
Problem of biblicalinterpretation.
You see, the white SouthernPresbyterian clergy and the
white Northern clergy whoquietly, or sometimes even more
loudly, supported them.
It is because they did not havethe right tools to interpret
the Bible, or it is because ofbiblical literalism.
(10:21):
Yeah, and so that was.
It was like a, it was abiblical interpretive problem.
And so what that does, though,kevin and Nancy, is that it
makes it it wasn't a moralproblem then, or it was less.
You know, it was less aneconomic problem, a cultural
problem, a racial problem.
The problem was they didn'tread, get the Bible.
They didn't read the Bibleright, and what I will say to
(10:43):
end this question, kevin, iswhat I found is that that is
true.
They did not read the Bibleright.
But, I wanted to know why, and Ifound that the answer had to be
more than just literalism.
It had to be more than thatthey were captive to for the
pastors who are listening andinformed ruling elders and
others that they were captive tothat Greek word, doulos.
That meant servant or slave,and it was like that's were
(11:04):
captive to that Greek worddoulos that meant servant or
slave, and it was like that'sthe reason why that that word
was there.
The Apostle Paul seems toendorse slavery, and and that's
it Part of the world order.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And so what I found is that they did come to that
conclusion.
But I wanted to know why, and Iwanted to study what was going
on racially, what was going oneconomically and politically and
the like that there wereconcern, political concerns,
about the union staying together.
What if?
What if we took more of anabolitionist position?
What would happen to thesouthern states?
(11:36):
What would happen to oureconomy, not just with
agriculture in the south, butmanufacturing in the north,
where the cotton came from, andwhat happens with the cotton and
where it goes?
I hope that's a good answer,kevin, to kind of why I wanted
to write that book.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, that, what if?
Question?
That can lead us to good placesand that can lead us to
constrict and turn inward, butit can also lead us to turn
outward.
What if things were different?
What if we were working in adifferent way together?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, that's great, you're right.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's good, kevin.
So what I will say to that realquick is that it's not only
what if, kevin?
That there were and I hope topoint out in that book and in
the book that just came out,there are actually strong,
vociferous, powerful, smart,like energizing, inspiring
Presbyterian abolitionists.
Certainly there were BlackPresbyterian abolitionists, like
(12:38):
the formerly enslaved man JamesWC Pennington and others, but
there were also whitePresbyterian leaders who did
have moral clarity and whounderstood, despite what the
cost might be politically,culturally, economically slavery
is an affront against God andit goes against God's creative
(13:00):
order.
Nancy, to your point, but thisisn't.
We don't live in an orderlyworld.
We actually have inherited adisorderly, immoral world
because of the transatlanticslave trade and it's what was
ongoing in the 1830s and thelike.
So what I will say is that,yeah, it's not all bad.
For example, in the book I notewhat is inspiring to me is that
(13:23):
the American Anti-SlaverySociety, founded in roughly 1833
, 1834, by William LloydGarrison and other abolitionists
, the executive, and it becamethe largest national
abolitionist organization withbig dreams to end slavery and
racial discrimination, theexecutive committee and
(13:43):
committee.
That rings true to us asPresbyterians.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
We do genuinely believe God works in committees
and plurality and discernment atleast.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
And it might be more, but what I can verify, nancy
and Kevin, six of the 12founding executive committee
members were Presbyterian,presbyterian clergy and lay
leaders.
Now, because of that, they werenot very influential in the
denomination but they wereinfluential in the abolitionist
movement.
So I do think I point to thatto say the problem wasn't
reformed theology.
The problem wasn't that theyhad inherited and were
(14:22):
practicing a reformedtheological approach that was
like against like doing good insociety, that was against
faithful civic civil engagement.
They were inspired.
They were inspired by theliberative promises of Jesus
Christ and counting the cost ofdiscipleship.
That's why they joined thisexecutive committee when we're
(14:44):
so passionate about abolitionism.
So the problem wasn't reformtheology.
The problem wasn't necessarilyPresbyterian polity Really like
those weren't it?
The problem was not anythinginherent to reform their
Presbyterian traditions.
The problem was thoseindividual Presbyterians who
(15:05):
were complicit or activelyparticipated in like slavery and
other racial oppressions.
They didn't do these thingsbecause they were Presbyterian
or because they were reformed.
They did these things that wereevil because they had for one,
they had some economic stakes init.
I was going to say yeah, yeah,certainly one, they had some
(15:28):
economic stakes in it, I wasgonna say, yeah, yeah, certainly
.
But two also, they opted for amore moderating, less courageous
position to preserve not thepurity but the peace and the
unity of the church.
They did make decisions and mypoint there is that I because
kevin and nancy, I know I'mgoing on I will say before
writing the book, when I toldpeople what I was writing on,
for many presbyterians I met inchurches, that was their first
(15:50):
impulse.
You know, it's because ofreformed theology, it is because
we have inherited this kind offrozen, chosen civic passivity
like human depravity.
We don't really believe like wecan do good and the world can
change, like, and so that was soin the water and just what I
found was that those were notthe problems.
(16:11):
Certainly we can, like, engage,how, sometimes not every.
I don't want to make everythinggood about reformed theology
and presbyterian polity, butwhat I want to say is that I
don't see them as the primaryculprits, if you will yeah of
this horrible legacy sure, sureno did you?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
yeah, that's your second book, um, reckoning with
history, build on some of theoriginal.
I know we, I from reading yourfirst book.
I know that you talked indetail and gave a really
beautiful um, what's the word Iwant to say?
Like you, you, in in greatdetail, you covered where
Presbyterians were present inthe abolition movements.
(16:53):
Does reckoning with historytake us into modern day?
Tell, yeah, tell us a littlebit about where, where that book
carries on from your first book.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Oh, yeah, thank you.
Oh yeah, thank you, nancy, fromyour first book.
Oh yeah, thank you, are related.
Oh yeah, thank you, nancy.
Um, so it is a.
It is a more ambitious,ambitious book.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Uh, maybe two, two all right at least two, kevin
and nancy first one is ambitious, one is I will take scope right
it does really cover AmericanProtestant Christianity across
several and all the majormainstream denominations.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
It is not a like one denominational, like history
right way to put it.
But it permitted me to reallylook at, for example, indigenous
rights activism and theabolitionist movements more in
full, because I wasn't lookingat them to find who were the
(17:53):
Presbyterians who were involved,I really was just looking at
them and analyzing their moral,religious, theological and
Christian arguments.
So one thing I will say in bothmovements what is again
refreshingly inspiring is thathow much the opposition to the
Indian Removal Act of 1830, thatultimately led to the sad and
(18:18):
horrible tragedy of the Trail ofTears and the state where I
reside, now Georgia, much of theopposition and activism for it
drew on Christian resources, itdrew on the Bible.
Jeremiah Everts, who was a man,a lawyer, who became a leading
(18:38):
kind of missionary agencyexecutive, jeremiah Everts, with
the American Board ofCommissioners for Foreign
Missions, which was founded bysome Williams College graduates,
some young men, in 1810, 1811,1812.
They sent lots of missionariesabroad.
I think they were the firstmissionary organization to send
(18:59):
missionaries to, for example,asia.
I think some of you might knowthe Baptist, anne Hazeltine and
Adirondack Judson, for example.
Ok anyways.
But yeah, he really believedthrough his work because then at
that point they really did,maybe not quite as foreign
(19:19):
mission, but they did understandmission to various indigenous
nations as a kind ofinternational might not be the
right word, but transnationalendeavor that they recognize
that the Cherokees for word, buttransnational endeavor that
they recognize that theCherokees, for example, were
their own nation and so and itwas mission work and the like.
So again, it really is likethis is the call of the gospel,
that we are called, certainly asChristians in the United States
(19:41):
, to oppose unjust laws and theabolitionist movement as well.
Very inspiring because of howmuch in fact pro-slavery
Christianity grew so much inresponse to the abolitionist
movement.
Real quick, yeah, I noted inwhat kind of Christianity as
well.
So I think and maybe I'll endthis question this way I think
(20:04):
we understand pro-slaveryChristianity like going up on an
incline or no, going down on adecline.
That, yeah, a long time agothey didn't know any better in
the 17th century, so they reallybelieved that slavery was
ordained by God.
And then, as time went alongand then the United States
Revolutionary War became its ownnation, there was more
(20:26):
illumination and eventually itkind of declined and declined
and it chipped away as theyunderstood more, as they I think
this is Maya Angelou as theyknew better, they did better.
But what I find is that'sactually the inverse that
initially there was a lot ofthere were not strong
pro-slavery arguments, becausethere was something in the
(20:49):
consciousness of colonists andearly white Americans to say
this is not right.
We've inherited this and thereare some challenges to
emancipation in terms of how dowe create a racially just
society when there are alreadyat that point in the 1780s, 90s,
generations of enslaved blackpeople.
(21:10):
But it was really like manypastors didn't want to put their
name on a sermon or on atreatise that actually used the
Bible to rigorously defendslavery.
But what happened is theabolitionist movement got really
good at appealing to like Luke,chapter four, got really good
at looking at Jubilee and theOld Testament this is the white
(21:32):
Quaker, angelina, emily Grimkeand they kept making arguments
from the Bible to say slavery iswrong and we should be for
abolition.
So what that demanded andrequired was an equally like,
rigorous, strong Christianresponse.
Right, and so sadly, nancy andkevin, where did wealthy
(21:52):
enslavers and enablers ofslavery turn to?
Hey, the abolitionist movementis really drawing on the bible
and christian resources.
You know who needs to defendthis for us.
It is the clergy pastors.
Who else but pastors canactually like provide retorts
when Frederick Douglass andWilliam Lloyd Garrison keep
(22:13):
appealing to our Christian Bible?
So in that way I know I'm alittle off, nancy and Kevin.
It is to note that, and againfor me what I would say Nancy
and Kevin, is that it does notexcuse what happened, but my
purpose is I want to explainwhat happened and that it wasn't
like this, like, oh, theybelieved in the curse of Ham
(22:34):
from Genesis 9, or they believedin the doctrine of discovery.
Those papal bulls from the late1490s that divided in some ways
evangelization and colonialismfrom the Roman Catholic Church
between Portugal and Spain, andI think we've learned some about
the doctrine of discovery curseof Ham.
Like I just don't think thatthese things that were inherited
(22:56):
fully explain what happened.
I think, like I'm sharing withyou now it is to look at the
quotidian or the ordinary.
Like again, I'm not trying toget these white pastors who
defended slavery off the hook,but Nancy and Kevin, we can
understand.
Let's say, you or I are in achurch in 1840 in my state of
(23:18):
Georgia.
It is like what are theparishioners demanding of me?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Like they are like yeah, we know that.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, what are the war?
What?
Certainly what can't I say.
I think we know that, kevin andnancy.
But my point in studying thehistory is actually, again, not
to defend it and excuse it.
It was and I write it inReckoning with History.
It was a viable pathway toministerial success and, I'm sad
(23:50):
to say, a bigger church, right.
How does one get into a biggerchurch?
It is, one acquires areputation as a public intellect
who is a skilled defender ofslavery.
And what does it require to isa skilled defender of slavery?
And what does it require to bea skilled defender of slavery?
It does require getting reallygood at white supremacy from a
Christian perspective and makingracist arguments.
(24:15):
And so it is sad that, kevin,your point about the what if?
Like I write in that book look,the greatest tragedy of slavery
are the destroyed dreams andlivelihood and abuses toward
enslaved people, women, men andchildren.
But I do think a lesser tragedyis how it destroyed the
(24:35):
morality and the theologicalwork of generations of white
clergy and theologian, thesebright men who were really smart
.
They are sophisticated men whowrote like, really like, again,
it's like weird, right.
They wrote really like, smart,immoral arguments from the Bible
(24:57):
to defense.
They had an answer for everyabolitionist critique.
You've got this verse, I've gotthat verse.
Sure, so right, kevin and Nancy, I think what would have
happened if they could haveactually been free to preach and
write without.
Yeah, but again, that's not thegreatest tragedy.
But again, in talking with youand I hope what I'm getting at
(25:19):
is that, like, I hope that thisis the work and the conversation
that we can have together yeah,right, I will say, like kevin
and nancy, I'll ask you all.
I think a generation ago, andmaybe it's still true now I
think one big challenge toanti-racism and racial justice
is we need to talk about it.
(25:39):
No one wanted to talk about it.
I do think now there is moreopenness and willingness to talk
about it, so we're makingprogress.
But what I also want to say,kevin and Nancy, is that the
next step to me is we need totalk better about it.
In Reckoning with History, Iwrite like we should prioritize
(26:01):
responsibility and repair overguilt and shame.
Yeah, I don't think you and Iand this is I get this from the
Pequot Massachusetts ministerWilliam Appes in 1835 and 36,
when he speaks before whiteaudiences in Portsmouth, new
Hampshire and Boston,massachusetts.
He says you and I are notguilty for our fathers and I'll
(26:24):
use the word ancestors' crimes.
Like we're not guilty.
We should give thanks that weare not guilty for the sins of
those who live before us.
But he also points out, we areresponsible to repair the
inherited mistakes that we'vegiven.
His point in 1835 is we stilllive in a messy world of settler
, colonialism and slavery.
We're not guilty for their sins, but we are responsible to
(26:49):
repair this world that god iscalling us to, and that's my
hope for us.
And when I meet you all, like Idon't, I don't.
I think history has beenmisused to induce guilt, but I
also think history has beenmisused to induce guilt, but I
also think history has beenmisused to conceal sin.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Like all of it.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So how do we have a better conversation?
And I'm curious, Nancy andKevin, how you all kind of
understand all of this work.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, I love your the language of responsibility as
opposed to guilt and and shame,as you were talking a little bit
ago.
I was thinking one, and evenjust hearing this little
synopsis from you just now.
But certainly, reading the bookand I'm looking forward to
(27:35):
reading Reckoning with Historytoo is, on the one hand, hearing
your perspective on it.
There's a warning, I think, forus in our time right, when are
we in danger?
Where might I be making thesame mistake that those pastors
in the 17 and 1800s did?
(27:56):
For, you know, in those smalldecisions that seem like well,
all right, you know, in thosesmall decisions that seem like
well, all right, I'll, I'll,I'll, kind of you know, just for
the sake of today, you know,but then those, those, they,
they grow.
So there's kind of that warning,but there's also in in hearing
you talk about history and thatit wasn't inevitable, which on
(28:17):
the one hand, I can look backand just it's heartbreaking of,
because you're what could havebeen.
But that also means that we canmake different choices.
Now, right, if we look back andsay different choices could
have been made, then it wasn'tinevitable.
There's a tragedy in that, butthere's also a hope for us.
Now we can look back and saybut we can make courageous
(28:39):
choices now, because that's theresponsibility and I actually
find I find a lot of hope in inthat that I can make what is the
responsible, good, lovingchoice.
I can make courageous choicetoday, not not even tomorrow or
the next day, but today.
(29:00):
And then how will that build ontomorrow and so on.
So yeah, I don't know, nancy.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
We are trying to decolonize our presbytery.
We are trying to decolonizeourselves and our churches and
to like.
I think one of the mostvaluable things that came out of
my particular congregation'sreading of your book was
conversations about the forms ofcolonization that we
participate in on a regularbasis, because it helped us
(29:30):
sharpen our skills atidentifying those places of
power, imbalances and oppressionthat we're living with now, and
learning about the history ofthat enabled us to put to see
through a new lens that feltmore honest and true.
My particular context is alittle different from Kevin's
and so far as my churches, um,uh, the greatest percentage of
(29:54):
our churches, um, people who'vecome from other countries, who
were raised with Presbyterianismas a form of of the spiritual
form of colonialism.
Um, so they werePresbyterianism was forced upon
the ancestors of many of thecongregants of my church, but
now they claim it in 2025 forthemselves and their children,
and they come to this church onpurpose, knowing the history of
(30:17):
how it was received.
Um, and there are people whowant to do that with
conversation, with lament, withhonest, open eyes about how the
rubber is hitting the road forthem as Presbyterians in this
era.
So your book has helped ourchurch a ton to have those
conversations and we're reallyexcited to continue at the
(30:38):
training.
I'm aware of our timing hereand so I want to.
I know I'm like I've been asked.
Crescent Terry, we are sograteful for our time with you
and we want to just invite youto share very briefly what you
think would be your hope for ourgathering together on March 1st
when we are in our training.
(31:02):
That's the we decided beforethe podcast started the
training's kind of a funny wordour convening of this
conversation.
What are you, what do you sortof hope for or imagine for that
day as you join the Presbyteryof Southern New England for a
conversation about anti-racismwork in the church?
Oh yeah, thanks, nancy aboutanti-racism work in the church.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Oh yeah, thanks Nancy and thanks Kevin.
What do I?
I think one is I am excited totalk with you and be among you.
(31:41):
As joyful as it is to writebooks and certainly the
affirmation to talk with peoplewho've read it, it is a process
of a book.
It is not dialogical and it isnot organic and it does not
leave a lot of room for mutualdiscernment.
Discernment, whereas I do thinkI'm excited to get on a plane
(32:05):
and be with you all for thosereasons that where we can work
with creativity, be open to thespirits prompting and leading
and have good, sometimes hardand painful, but ultimately like
productive conversation.
And I'll end, nancy and Kevin,with saying I hope we can gather
to do the work of healingdivides, healing the many things
that divide us, so thatultimately we can move towards
(32:28):
agreeing and working together,while also recognizing that it
is an ongoing process, that toget to mutual agreement and
discernment also does have somedisagreeing, but I guess for me
I don't know I don't want us tofight about the past, I don't
(32:50):
want us to fight about criticalrace theory and DEI and all of
these things, what I do want usto fight about.
If we're going to fight, it'slike fight about what we're
going to do, because all of uswant the same thing we want to
enact God's justice.
We want different congregationsthat were called to different
things, but, like we want tofigure out how to like struggle
(33:10):
and how to learn from oneanother to do that, I'd rather
disagree about what to do ratherthan like what we believe.
Maybe we can get a littlecloser on the what we believe
part.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Right, that's a really good point, and when we
gather on the 1st we'll havesome breakout sessions during
which we will sort of get asense of what people want to do
and maybe some healthydisagreement about wrestling
with that question.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
We're so grateful for your time and excited that
you'll be with us in under amonth, on March 1st, for the
Presbytery of Southern NewEngland's anti-racism gathering.
This year we're going to be atthe New Haven Korean
Presbyterian Church.
For anybody who's listening andhasn't registered yet, we'd love
for you to join us andrecognize that the deadline for
(33:58):
registration is on February 21st, because we need to give our
host church some time to preparethe delicious food that they've
agreed to prepare for us.
As an added bonus, I want tomention, too, that William will
be with my church in Hartfordthe church that I serve in
Hartford the following day,leading worship at First
Presbyterian Church in Hartford,and Westminster Presbyterian
(34:21):
Church, which is our neighborchurch just four miles down the
road, will also be joining usthat day.
They will not have worship intheir sanctuary that day, but
they'll instead come to FirstPres Hartford and we are going
to enjoy a time of worship,joyful time of worship, singing
communion, hearing the good wordfrom you, william, and
afterwards, hopefully, havingsome direct one-on-one
(34:43):
conversations about where peopleare after this prayer weekend
together.
So I think, in all anticipation, to choose this church to be
the one where you will shareyour insight and wisdom and all
that you have acquired in yourtime of study and learning as a
(35:03):
person.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah, I'm jealous.
I'm going to be heading back toRhode Island on Saturday.
I wish I could be there withy'all.
William, again, thank you forbeing willing to give us a
little teaser, a little promo,about what to expect.
One of the questions we weregoing to ask you was just what
excites you about this work, buthaving just now spent the past
half hour or so, the answerseems to be everything your
(35:29):
excitement about all of this thehistory, the theology and then
just the heart for the church toreally be the church that God
intends.
It's awesome to see.
It's infectious.
So, that's a great teaser foranybody listening to register
(35:54):
and come on out.
So again, William, thank youfor your time tonight and thank
you in advance for your timethat weekend of March 1st and
2nd, and once again, this hasbeen Connecting Our
Conversations the Presbytery ofSouthern New England's podcast
space for conversations thatpush the edges of our faith and
help us to deepen discipleship.
(36:15):
We look forward to seeingeveryone on March 1st and until
then, from myself and Nancy andWilliam, grace and peace be with
you all.
Bye.
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