August 14, 2024 • 29 mins
What if the challenges of motherhood were more daunting than you ever imagined? In this episode of Conquering Chaos: A Mom's Guide to Self-Care and Sanity, we sit down with Dr. Saloni Surah, an inspiring doctor and author who shares her raw and honest journey of becoming a mother later in life while juggling a demanding career. Saloni opens up about her tumultuous pregnancy, a significant cross-country move, and the harrowing experience of a forceps delivery that left her both physically and emotionally drained. Her candid account sheds light on the resilience required to navigate the unforeseen struggles of early motherhood.
Join us as we unpack the emotional weight of birth trauma and PTSD, listening to heartfelt stories from women who faced unimaginable challenges, like not being able to hold their newborns due to ICU stays. Saloni discusses the long-lasting effects these experiences have on mental health and the glaring inadequacies in post-birth mental health support within the healthcare system. We also explore the transformative potential of treatments like EMDR and the importance of honest communication with children about these traumatic experiences. This conversation aims to foster understanding and support for women affected by birth trauma.
As we wrap up, we learn about her inspiring work as an author and her YouTube channel, "Bedtime Stories by Saloni," aimed at inspiring children through storytelling. This episode concludes with an empowering message for mothers, emphasizing the importance of community, perseverance, and seeking the support they need and deserve. Join us for an episode filled with resilience, hope, and the power of shared experiences.
Find Saloni Here:
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@bedtimestoriesbysaloni
https://www.facebook.com/saloni.surah
To purchase Flora Investigates:
https://www.amazon.com/Flora-Investigates-Case-Missing-Gold/dp/1739448405
Mama Mental Wellness Guide: https://www.sydneycrowe.com/mamamentalwellness589191
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, hello everybody, welcome back to
Conquering Chaos.
A mom's guide to self-care andsanity.
I'm your host, sydney Crow, andtoday we have the amazing
Saloni.
Sarath Saloni is a doctor, sheis also an author, and I'm
really excited for her to comeon and just share her journey.
(00:20):
So welcome, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Welcome.
It's great.
We were just having an amazingconversation prior to kicking
off the show, and so I'm reallyexcited.
Let's just dive right in andyou can share your story with
the listeners, because you'vehad quite a journey over the
last couple of years.
Your kids are four and two now,and motherhood did not start
(00:43):
out the way that you had hopedit would.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
No, I had a really terrible start to motherhood.
I am an older mum and I waiteda long time to have children
because it took me a long timeto meet somebody.
Part of that was my career,that it consumed so much.
I also have a PhD and I'vemoved country a few times.
I've worked all over and thatmeant that I was older.
So for a long time I didn'tthink it was going to happen.
And there's a big piece aroundthat and grief that you get when
(01:12):
you think, gosh, that's notgoing to happen for me and it's
not how you envisioned your lifeto be.
Not that it ever works out theway you envision it to be, but I
always thought that childrenwould feature and we see on tv
that the you have kids and andget married and that's it.
(01:32):
But it's a whole other ballgame then.
So for me, I met my husbandlater and we had probably been
together about a year when Imentioned it, because I was in
my 40s, just getting into themand it was going to be now or
ever.
And it was a funny be now ornever.
And it was a funny conversationbecause he he was I don't know
that he was really ready for itand obviously he loves them and
it's great now.
But it's it's quite transitionwhen you're older to to.
(01:56):
You've got to bridge that gapquite quickly.
You don't have five, ten yearsto to have that time to get
there.
And I went into it not in a goodplace.
I had had some work situationsand I had quite bad workplace
bullying and, unbeknownst to me,had PTSD undiagnosed, untreated
, not from the want of trying.
And then I got pregnant fairlyeasily, which shocked me.
(02:17):
I always thought it would takeme quite a while but it was,
yeah, fairly easy, consideringeverything that had been going
on.
And unfortunately, because ofthe PTSD and feeling unsafe and
I had some stalking and all thisstuff, I ended up moving
country when I was quite heavilypregnant.
So I was living in Ireland atthe time and I moved back to the
UK.
Part of it was because I knewthat I'd probably need support
(02:39):
and where I had a well, I haveChristmas babies, so they were
due at the end of the year and Ifind January a hard month
anyway, but I was slightlyconcerned about a newborn and at
that time Ireland, dublin, wascrazy, so Brexit was happening
and prices and rentals wereastronomical, so it just seemed
(02:59):
like the right thing to do.
It did mean moving.
I was trying to negotiatehealthcare systems, not being in
a great position with the PTSDand I had even though I'm a
medic, I'm quite alternative soI had in my mind that I wanted a
water birth in hospital.
So I did the hypnobirthing andthe pregnancy yoga and I thought
this is going to be it and wentfor acupuncture, went for
(03:22):
acupuncture before gettingpregnant and also during the
pregnancy, thinking be fine andI'll go into labour, no problem.
Of course I didn't and I endedup being induced and that,
unfortunately, the maternityhospital I went to isn't the
best, and hindsight is awonderful thing.
But at that time I didn't know,and I didn't know about
negotiating and even who totransfer late, who the good
(03:44):
consultants are, who the goodmidwives are and all that stuff.
So I ended up with an induction, which I didn't want.
They had said that I had lostweight and I was kind of like,
are you sure, because this isfully engaged, I can't walk
properly.
Of course that like that,hadn't I.
He hadn't lost weight when hewas born, but it was an
induction and like a three-daything with a catheter and the
(04:06):
thing and I had wanted to movearound and it was full-on pump
so I couldn't move and I foundthat one of the hardest things
about my labor was just beinghaving to sit in one position
and the hormones.
So, after everything andgetting there and not taking a
massive amount of stuff, I'dtens and like, I think, a
codeine and a bit of morphine.
I ended up fully dilated andtrying to have it as natural as
(04:29):
possible but just didn't happen.
And then I ended up with aforceps and an episiotomy which
went into a third degree rectaltear and it was terrible.
I was like to them at the timeplease could you not do a
cesarean?
And they said look was, it wastoo.
It was, they were too far down.
But I just remember seeing myhusband in the theatre crying
(04:49):
and looking.
I'm going, why?
Why is he crying?
Obviously I'd had a bit ofmorphine by that point.
So I was three sheets to thewind and as a I think as a man,
if you see forceps they'repretty bye-bye but they're not
not nice.
So and it was quite, took quitea long time and I was like why
is this taking so long?
I remember them saying I'd hada tear and talking and they told
me a load of stuff that I don'tremember which was terrible
(05:10):
about this and that, not sayingthe bath.
And then my little one had alow temperature and wasn't
feeding.
They'd had a full tongue tieand it was just terrible.
I think I just sobbed for thefirst 24 hours.
I think it was the hormones.
I thought this was going to bemy big savior.
He, you know, couldn't feed.
Then he got taken to Niku and Iwas so exhausted that a part of
(05:32):
me was almost relieved.
I just wanted to sleep, becausethree days you go on the
Saturday and then it's likeMonday morning, so it's like
three days later.
Yeah, and it took me a long timeto recover.
I really I don't know what it'slike in Canada, but the
postnatal care wasn't great.
I lost two units of blood andnobody told me.
(05:53):
My legs swelled up two dayslater and I ended up in A&E
thinking I had a DVT and itwasn't.
It was just blood loss andnobody gave me iron but it also
really struggled not to bond.
I was just petrified.
I was just really scared.
I was scared to hold my childand I was scared and
unfortunately I don't know whatit's like there.
The health visitors were verymuch like no co-sleeping and
(06:16):
they scared the crap out of meand that was probably in
hindsight, looking back.
For those first few monthsreally what I needed was the
co-sleeping and I think my childwas really traumatized as well
and then I obviously was a bitemotionally unavailable because
I was so traumatized.
But then I had burst trauma ontop of the PTSD and I was having
breastfeeding problems becauseof the tongue tie.
(06:37):
They needed another cut, sothey had two cuts.
So it was a really trickyperiod and not the start that I
had wanted and dreamt of andenvisioned at all and it was
very hard to get help even as amedic.
It was really hard with thelabours and certainly when I
went for that induction I don'tfeel it was an informed choice.
It was just kind of like Iwould do this for you and that's
(07:00):
that, and I was on my own inthat clinic appointment.
You're wiser the second time.
But I don't feel that wasreally informed and that I was
really aware of the risk becauseI was even listened to like my
birth plan.
When we're going in for theinduction and the midwife going
well, she's not going to get anyof that kind of hearing it
going okay, because it's quitetough.
I think when you're laboringand you're being examined and I
didn't want to be examinedbecause you're like, oh god, I'm
(07:21):
, I'm only five centimetres, I'monly seven centimetres there is
that part of your brain thatgets slightly competitive and
like I should be further and itjust always feels like you're
being assessed and you're notquite achieving or something or
not quite there.
For me, when I think of thebirths that I had, they feel
really devoid of that spiritualmidwifery.
I had a different birth thesecond time.
(07:42):
It was a caesarean because ofthe tear, no-transcript of them
(08:11):
and that kind of sadness thatnot being able to do that or
that, somehow I had failedphysically.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
yeah, just grieving the loss of this picture that
you had put into your mind.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yes, oops yeah, absolutely yes, and I struggled
with that transition to be amother.
I think sometimes when you're abit older you're used to that
independence, so it can bechallenging.
It doesn't mean I didn'tdesperately and I've had the
conversation with my child aboutthis desperately, desperately.
Call him my little miracle.
He's absolutely wonderful.
It was a big change, thatintroduction to motherhood, and
(08:47):
I was emotionally unavailable.
I was so traumatized by thewhole thing and really mental
health wise, I had to battle toget treatment.
So I was pinged between thehealth visitor and the midwife
and the health visitor was like,look you're, you're anxious and
depressed on these HAB scorebut wouldn't refer me to anybody
.
And I was like, but there's nopoint telling me, there's.
(09:07):
No, actually no point screeningme if you're not going to do
anything about it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I did eventually end up withmental health and I ended up
getting my PTSD treated, but Ishould have gone to prenatal
mental health and been undertheir care for two years and had
my birth trauma treated at thesame time.
I had to go back in the secondpregnancy to do that.
So I think for me, talkingabout that mental health issue
(09:28):
after a birth, especially thoseinstrumentals where they don't
go the way that you want it togo, you're often not listened to
and I understand that they justwant to get the baby out, but I
just the disconnection betweena bad birth and a birth further
down the line and the bondingand the impact on that child and
the mother and relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I felt so guilty for such a long time I was
unavailable now would you saythat your situation is like an
abnormal case in the UK, or isthis kind of like a standard?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
no-transcript wanted to close that part of my life
back and it wasn't to complain,but it was to say, look, how can
we make this better for otherwomen?
And I was having thisdiscussion with the head of the
matron of the inpatient servicesand said, look, I've had so
many mums say to me another mumhas said she'd gone back for a
(10:55):
review and it was a totallydifferent clinician and they
actually told her factuallyincorrect stuff and she said I
didn't need to go in on that day, I could have gone in another
day.
The fact that I went in and somany other mums that I've spoken
to said they'd had this similarthing I was like why is there
not a counsellor there?
Why is there not a counsellor?
Okay, you've got a somebody amidwife or a clinician there,
(11:15):
but why is there not acounsellor when you're doing
these feedback sessions or birthreviews?
Because by the nature of youdoing them, they're traumatic.
Women are traumatised and someof these women had have lost
children.
Some of these women hadchildren when were on ICU and
didn't get to hold their babiesfor two weeks.
It was traumatic stuff.
Women who had ended up thengoing to prenatal mental health
(11:37):
and requiring treatment forbirth trauma.
And they just said, oh well,funding, and that's the way it
is but like, okay, I had PTSDbut I also ended up having birth
trauma.
When I was pregnant with mysecond child, I literally would
wake up having nightmares aboutgiving birth, even as a cesarean
, and the EMDR the rapid eyemovement, desensitization and
(12:00):
reprocessing treatment that Ihad for both birth trauma and my
PTSD meant that I had apleasurable birth.
It wasn't the birth that Iwanted, but my intention had
been look, peaceful, calm birth,everyone was well, baby fed and
I got that and she was happyand I was happy and it was calm
and that treatment totallytransformed that for me that
(12:21):
birth trauma.
So there's so many womenwandering around with trauma
after having birth and I thinkbirth trauma is probably fairly
common and referrals fortreatment and the way it's
treated, even by theobstetricians.
Because I went back for mysix-week checkup because it was
instrumental, I had to go to theclinic and they were just
(12:43):
shocked that I sobbed.
I just sobbed all the waythrough that consultation and
they sent me to the counsellorand so I went to the counsellor
a month later and she said I'mreally sorry, I don't know why
you're here and I just sat andcried and she goes I'm really
glad you're here, but actuallyyou need a psychologist, not not
me.
Come back to me if they, if youdon't get to the psychologist,
but actually that's really whatyou need.
(13:04):
So that that was an obstetricclinic that I went back to yeah,
I mean our system's quite a bitdifferent here.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I mean this conversation, I have to say, has
been very eyeopening for me,just given my own experience my
own, my oldest daughterdefinitely had birth trauma
there.
We were in the hospital forfive days post-birth.
There was a whole bunch and Ican get into that story on
another podcast, but it's it's.
We don't.
We don't really do a like a goback and talk about our birth
(13:33):
with the hospital in any way,shape or form.
I mean, our family doctorstypically are the ones that are
coming into the clinic and doingdeliveries, and I was a member
of like a family clinic wherethese doctors share patients and
whoever's on call delivers yourbaby.
Like you don't really have asay, it just depends on when you
go into labor.
That works really well and theyshare patients.
(13:55):
You have one specific family GP.
But this conversation, I justhave to say, has been incredibly
eye-opening for me and justgiven my own experience and
knowing that there are so manydifferent ways that women do
experience trauma during birth,because I think that it's not
something that we talk aboutvery often and I think it needs
(14:16):
to be a conversation that webring to the forefront,
definitely more so.
So I appreciate you being onthe show and sharing that
journey, because it's it isdefinitely.
I mean, my daughter is nowalmost 11.
But I have to say thisconversation has been a little
triggering for me personally.
So if I feel a little scatteredas you guys are listening to
this conversation, it's my brainis going in a million different
(14:38):
directions right now.
But I have to say, like, given,given your situation, given
what you've gone through and howovercome what you've come like,
gone through the PTSD, thebirth trauma how do you feel
that that helps you parent today?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I'm honest, I've had the conversation with my eldest
child about how I was unwellwhen they were born and how I
desperately wanted them, but Iwas unwell and I could probably
have been better when they wereborn.
I've had that and and,therefore, and I've had that
more than once.
So I think it does.
These things happen.
(15:15):
Pretending they haven'thappened doesn't make it better
or go away.
I think it's actually the worstthing to do, and there was a
lot of guilt for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think I probably overcompensated, but now it's
kind of like well, this happened.
It wasn't good.
I'm telling you, I love youdesperately.
You were my miracle.
You were everything I washoping for and more.
It didn't work out how I wanted.
I had to fight to get thattreatment, but you know, I want
you to know that I'm sorry ifyou felt that I wasn't there
(15:47):
because I wasn't, because theydo the babies do pick up on that
.
He cried a lot and I was lessemotionally available and I will
forever worry that that has hada negative impact.
Do you know what I mean?
So, but there's nothing I cando about that.
All I can do is go on and healmyself and I did that and get
the treatment, have a differentexperience and feedback about
(16:10):
that.
I am also going to train in theEMDR this summer as my plan.
I haven't.
I do coach as well.
A variety of stuff, but I takea bit.
I call myself a change agent,basically.
So it might be love, it mightbe money, it might be whatever.
Last time I coached, I had awhole family, the teenagers and
the mom and dad, and it was fab.
And then they, they don't needme anymore, which is wonderful
(16:31):
too, but I found it so powerfulthe EMDR and I do, I do a lot of
other stuff too that I'mplanning on training in it.
I'm not quite sure what I'mgoing to do with it, but you
know it was.
I mean, it gave me my life backand it enabled me to go from
having that birth trauma andthose nightmares to having a
really different experience withmy second.
(16:54):
I saw somebody on tv saying thisand I'm just going to say this
like losing a child or birthtrauma or stuff like that is
PTSD.
It's it's like PTSD, it's likearmy veterans coming back from
war and that's what women aregoing through with births and
how it's little overlooked byobstetricians.
That's what shocks me.
I mean I'm a medic, I've lookedafter people from all over the
(17:14):
world and and and people who'veinjected drugs and been abused
and I haven't spoken to them theway that I've been spoken to,
even as another clinician, byobstetric services and it and it
shocks me.
I mean it's the same over here.
You, you have a consultant, butit's whoever you're on call
with on the day you go to clinic.
So it's similar in that way.
(17:36):
They are obstetricians, butyeah, I'm doing it, I'm talking
about it.
I'm saying, look, this is whathappened.
Judging by the women that I'vespoken to, or even my group of
mums that I met as an NCT cast,it wasn't a unique experience.
There's plenty of other womenhad trauma in that group and out
of mum's groups and it'ssomething that why not have a
(17:56):
counselor at a feedback?
So the reviews or the feedbacksthey're not routine, but
usually if you've had atraumatic birth or you've lost a
child or something, you can askfor it.
So I asked for it.
I was like I don't understandwhat happened.
It was absolutely appalling thefirst time and I went back and
got a second with when I waspregnant second time, which is
much better, and they did gothrough it and I sobbed because
(18:17):
it was a traumatic birth and thereality was they ended up
having to put in a lot more timeto me in the consultations and
that second pregnancy and I justcannot see how the
obstetricians and thoseresponsible in maternity health
can't see that one andon-one astwo yeah, yeah, no, absolutely,
and I think it's.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I mean, all we can keep doing is bringing more
awareness around this andsharing our stories, because it
shouldn't be the norm, right,like cases like this.
I mean, yeah, things are boundto happen from now and then, but
the fact that there are momafter mom after mom having these
experiences and it's not justin the UK or in Canada, it's all
over the world there needs tobe a shift here.
(18:55):
Where it's there needs to bemore mental checks, I think,
prior to delivery, making surethat moms are aware.
I mean, for me, especially withmy first, it was like you go to
a prenatal class and it waslike, hey, this is the delivery
and you build what you, I thinkyour, plan is going to be.
And then, when you get thereand things don't go as planned,
(19:15):
there's no course of action,like nobody had prepared me for.
Okay, what if this doesn'thappen?
Or these are things that couldhappen and these are ways that
we can deal with this, like itwas just this.
This is your situation.
You're just, you're stuck herefor five days and if we have to
suction your child out more andshe stops breathing, and like
all of these things.
It's just like I was like, okay, and I remember finally getting
(19:38):
her home Nobody had said why,like the tests had changed, and
I was just staring at her.
I was like I was so afraid thatshe would stop breathing that
my husband was, like, have yougone to sleep yet?
Like you need, you need to goto sleep.
I'll watch her so that youcould sleep.
And just having somebody tellme that they would keep her eyes
on, like my husband would keepher, his eyes on her, so that I
felt comfortable, that I couldsleep right.
(19:59):
Like there's there's women thatare dealing with things like
that all over the world.
So bringing these conversationsto the forefront, I think, is
so important so that we canhopefully start to see some sort
of shift, or or that moms canbe better prepared going into
things to say like hey, likethis is an ideal situation, this
is what I would like to seewith my birth plan.
But if things go wrong, hereare some courses of action that
(20:23):
I would like to see taken sothat it's not just you wake up
basically from your, your drugsthat they fed you, so that
you're not in pain and you haveno idea really what has happened
right In the case of you andeven myself.
So I appreciate you being hereand sharing your story.
I think it's really important.
One thing that you mentionedearlier on in the podcast is
(20:44):
that you were told not toco-sleep with your first, and I
have the exact same experienceand I think, like you had said,
it was so important for you,yeah, to to feel like maybe that
that would have been part ofthe solution in that time, but
you were so fear-mongered out ofit, and I had the exact same
(21:04):
experience in Canada, and Ithink that women need to start
tuning into their intuition more.
There needs to be more of thisawareness, and I get that there
are sleep, sleep hazards, butlooking back, when I was able to
co-sleep with my second, I feltthat bond so much better.
(21:25):
Right, I just knew I was likeyou know what?
This is how I'm getting sleep,this is where she feels comfort,
and I just tuned into myintuition in that moment versus
the allowing my head to takeover, and it sounds like you had
a very similar experience yes,I mean I, I understand, I
understand why, but I thinkthere are safe ways of doing it
(21:48):
and certainly I think inhindsight now that was probably
what I needed and my childneeded.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
And I have a funny not funny, it's a crazy story.
I was telling someone this theother day.
So obviously I'm a medic andI'm asian and if you're as Asian
, my parents come from India.
They, they hear, so they theBCG vaccine.
Okay, so at two weeks I took myeldest.
For that I was so out of itthat I took them.
It wasn't, wasn't a priority.
My parents have been here foryears.
(22:13):
We don't live in a high TB area.
All the best stuff.
I would be the big TB riskbecause I've looked after a lot
of TB with being a HIV doc.
But I took them because I wasso out of it and yet so they
could do that, but yet theycouldn't give me the mental
health support.
And it's crazy, like when Ithink about it now, as they rang
me for my daughter and I waslike just go away.
I'm just not doing this by thatpoint I was, but you know I can
(22:37):
laugh about it now going.
It's actually crazy that youcould.
Two weeks.
We weren't high risk, but youknow you couldn't get me
referred for telling me I wasanxious and depressed I just
think counsellors and certainlymental health wise and even the
instrumental, like they tried todischarge me from the physio
(22:57):
like I, it massively that pelvicfloor and rectal tear massively
affected how I felt as a woman,how I felt sexually, my
function down there.
I had to battle to get back.
They tried to discharge me, thepelvic floor, the physios, and
they said, look, put down and dothis.
And I was and I played stupidand I was like no, no, I'm gonna
come back to you.
But with COVID they dischargedme and then told me to go
(23:18):
private.
But if you need a pelvic floorphysio you need a specialist,
you don't just want any other,any random physio.
That was in itself quitetraumatic because it massively
affects how you feel as a woman.
I know because I've done pelvicpain clinics.
The pelvic dysfunction was areal shock and really traumatic
(23:39):
and you're scared to look downthere.
You're scared to touch downthere.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it just sounds likethere were so many holes in the
system in your case, I mean andI know that you're not alone in
experiencing that so I meanhaving you as an MD, as a PhD,
being able to be there and, asyou called yourself, a change
(24:02):
maker, I think that that's justsuch a beautiful title that
you're able to go out and helpother women and share your story
, because, yeah, I mean, it'sjust there were so many issues
that you had to go through andface and overcome, and and your
strength is, and perseverance, Imean, is very, very inspiring,
(24:22):
and so I'm just so grateful thatyou were able to hop on here
and share some of your story.
I know that you have a coupleof books coming out soon.
Do you want to share a littlebit about those before we sign
off.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, I'd love to.
Well, I have a couple of things.
One is I do read.
I have read loads on socialmedia, so I have a YouTube
channel.
Things One is I do read.
I have read-alouds on socialmedia, so I have a YouTube
channel.
So if you're a mum and you wantto grab coffee and put your
child in front of a book, I'vegot a couple on there, some
lovely authors and that's AtBedtime Stories by Saloni, so
they're free and up there.
Sometimes you want to just goand have five minutes or have a
poo or just have a cry in thetoilet because something's just
(24:59):
not worked out or the kids havebeen crying.
My first book was published lastsummer and that was actually my
fourth book.
It's called Flora Investigatesthe Case of the Missing Gold
Eggs, and that is an earlychapter book, so it's seven to
nine year olds and it's about agirl detective, so I was a
little naughty.
It's based on my husband'sfriends and family.
My mother-in-law used to keepchickens and one day one went
(25:22):
missing and my husband jokedthat there had been a murder in
the garden.
So it's set in Italy becausehe's Italian and she's a girl
detective.
I don't have the front coverbut I have my bookmark.
That's Flora.
She's a girl detective and shewants to hit the big time and
there's not a lot of people thatwant to employ girl detectives
but she's not going to be heldback by society.
So she sets up her own agencyand finds her first paid case.
(25:45):
A gold egg laying chicken hasgone missing and there's a
flying boat and a dancing cheeseeating pirate and a hunter and
a lot of cats.
But it's really a book about agirl who has a dream and doesn't
give up.
I've looked after a lot ofpoverty and illiteracy so I
wanted to inspire kids throughstorytelling and books and
imagination because I know andagain with the reading not every
(26:07):
child has that at home.
So that's that and I have afirst of May.
My second book, the Last FairyGuardian, is coming out and
that's middle grade, so eight to12 year olds, and that's a
clipped wing fairy book aboutbullying and how we all get our
wings clipped at some point andhow we get them back and the
power of forgiveness.
So there's a lot of magic,there's a lot of potions,
(26:28):
there's wings, there'sfriendships forbidden
friendships between fairies andhumans.
So that's coming out in May.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Wonderful.
Well, I mean, I have two littlegirls that I know would just
love to read both of those books, so I can't wait to share those
with them.
This episode will be coming out, so we'll make sure that we can
include some links under theshow for you guys to get access
to those books and to herYouTube channel, so that you
guys can just have some storytime with your kiddos.
(26:56):
I've really enjoyed our timetogether.
Is there any last piece ofadvice that you'd like to give
the mums out there?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Oh, what can I say?
I think you're all amazing.
It's really.
You don't realise how wonderfuland amazing and messy and
beautiful it is until you gothere and it's.
There's a bond, isn't there?
I was up swimming today with mydaughter and my son was there
and one of the other mums hadgone gosh, I've forgotten the
swimming costume and we werelike just get me a swim nappy.
(27:26):
And I was like do you want toborrow my other swim nappy?
And I think that there's somereally lovely bits there, but it
can be incredibly lonely.
I remember being that mumwanting just desperately to make
some mum friends.
So I think just keep onpersevering, it will get better,
and ask for help, and sometimesyou have to fight for it, but
(27:47):
you know you deserve it, and sodo your children.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I love that.
I mean absolutely.
I think that that message isvery, very powerful and I hope
that all the mums out therelistening feel a little less
alone and just feel a littlemore empowered in their
decisions.
So thank you again for beinghere today and thank you, guys,
for tuning into today's episodewhere we help you conquer the
chaos one day at a time.
Hello, hello everybody, welcome back to
Conquering Chaos.
A mom's guide to self-care andsanity.
I'm your host, sydney Crow, andtoday we have the amazing
Saloni.
Sarath Saloni is a doctor, sheis also an author, and I'm
really excited for her to comeon and just share her journey.
(00:20):
So welcome, thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Welcome.
It's great.
We were just having an amazingconversation prior to kicking
off the show, and so I'm reallyexcited.
Let's just dive right in andyou can share your story with
the listeners, because you'vehad quite a journey over the
last couple of years.
Your kids are four and two now,and motherhood did not start
(00:43):
out the way that you had hopedit would.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
No, I had a really terrible start to motherhood.
I am an older mum and I waiteda long time to have children
because it took me a long timeto meet somebody.
Part of that was my career,that it consumed so much.
I also have a PhD and I'vemoved country a few times.
I've worked all over and thatmeant that I was older.
So for a long time I didn'tthink it was going to happen.
And there's a big piece aroundthat and grief that you get when
(01:12):
you think, gosh, that's notgoing to happen for me and it's
not how you envisioned your lifeto be.
Not that it ever works out theway you envision it to be, but I
always thought that childrenwould feature and we see on tv
that the you have kids and andget married and that's it.
(01:32):
But it's a whole other ballgame then.
So for me, I met my husbandlater and we had probably been
together about a year when Imentioned it, because I was in
my 40s, just getting into themand it was going to be now or
ever.
And it was a funny be now ornever.
And it was a funny conversationbecause he he was I don't know
that he was really ready for itand obviously he loves them and
it's great now.
But it's it's quite transitionwhen you're older to to.
(01:56):
You've got to bridge that gapquite quickly.
You don't have five, ten yearsto to have that time to get
there.
And I went into it not in a goodplace.
I had had some work situationsand I had quite bad workplace
bullying and, unbeknownst to me,had PTSD undiagnosed, untreated
, not from the want of trying.
And then I got pregnant fairlyeasily, which shocked me.
(02:17):
I always thought it would takeme quite a while but it was,
yeah, fairly easy, consideringeverything that had been going
on.
And unfortunately, because ofthe PTSD and feeling unsafe and
I had some stalking and all thisstuff, I ended up moving
country when I was quite heavilypregnant.
So I was living in Ireland atthe time and I moved back to the
UK.
Part of it was because I knewthat I'd probably need support
(02:39):
and where I had a well, I haveChristmas babies, so they were
due at the end of the year and Ifind January a hard month
anyway, but I was slightlyconcerned about a newborn and at
that time Ireland, dublin, wascrazy, so Brexit was happening
and prices and rentals wereastronomical, so it just seemed
(02:59):
like the right thing to do.
It did mean moving.
I was trying to negotiatehealthcare systems, not being in
a great position with the PTSDand I had even though I'm a
medic, I'm quite alternative soI had in my mind that I wanted a
water birth in hospital.
So I did the hypnobirthing andthe pregnancy yoga and I thought
this is going to be it and wentfor acupuncture, went for
(03:22):
acupuncture before gettingpregnant and also during the
pregnancy, thinking be fine andI'll go into labour, no problem.
Of course I didn't and I endedup being induced and that,
unfortunately, the maternityhospital I went to isn't the
best, and hindsight is awonderful thing.
But at that time I didn't know,and I didn't know about
negotiating and even who totransfer late, who the good
(03:44):
consultants are, who the goodmidwives are and all that stuff.
So I ended up with an induction, which I didn't want.
They had said that I had lostweight and I was kind of like,
are you sure, because this isfully engaged, I can't walk
properly.
Of course that like that,hadn't I.
He hadn't lost weight when hewas born, but it was an
induction and like a three-daything with a catheter and the
(04:06):
thing and I had wanted to movearound and it was full-on pump
so I couldn't move and I foundthat one of the hardest things
about my labor was just beinghaving to sit in one position
and the hormones.
So, after everything andgetting there and not taking a
massive amount of stuff, I'dtens and like, I think, a
codeine and a bit of morphine.
I ended up fully dilated andtrying to have it as natural as
(04:29):
possible but just didn't happen.
And then I ended up with aforceps and an episiotomy which
went into a third degree rectaltear and it was terrible.
I was like to them at the timeplease could you not do a
cesarean?
And they said look was, it wastoo.
It was, they were too far down.
But I just remember seeing myhusband in the theatre crying
(04:49):
and looking.
I'm going, why?
Why is he crying?
Obviously I'd had a bit ofmorphine by that point.
So I was three sheets to thewind and as a I think as a man,
if you see forceps they'repretty bye-bye but they're not
not nice.
So and it was quite, took quitea long time and I was like why
is this taking so long?
I remember them saying I'd hada tear and talking and they told
me a load of stuff that I don'tremember which was terrible
(05:10):
about this and that, not sayingthe bath.
And then my little one had alow temperature and wasn't
feeding.
They'd had a full tongue tieand it was just terrible.
I think I just sobbed for thefirst 24 hours.
I think it was the hormones.
I thought this was going to bemy big savior.
He, you know, couldn't feed.
Then he got taken to Niku and Iwas so exhausted that a part of
(05:32):
me was almost relieved.
I just wanted to sleep, becausethree days you go on the
Saturday and then it's likeMonday morning, so it's like
three days later.
Yeah, and it took me a long timeto recover.
I really I don't know what it'slike in Canada, but the
postnatal care wasn't great.
I lost two units of blood andnobody told me.
(05:53):
My legs swelled up two dayslater and I ended up in A&E
thinking I had a DVT and itwasn't.
It was just blood loss andnobody gave me iron but it also
really struggled not to bond.
I was just petrified.
I was just really scared.
I was scared to hold my childand I was scared and
unfortunately I don't know whatit's like there.
The health visitors were verymuch like no co-sleeping and
(06:16):
they scared the crap out of meand that was probably in
hindsight, looking back.
For those first few monthsreally what I needed was the
co-sleeping and I think my childwas really traumatized as well
and then I obviously was a bitemotionally unavailable because
I was so traumatized.
But then I had burst trauma ontop of the PTSD and I was having
breastfeeding problems becauseof the tongue tie.
(06:37):
They needed another cut, sothey had two cuts.
So it was a really trickyperiod and not the start that I
had wanted and dreamt of andenvisioned at all and it was
very hard to get help even as amedic.
It was really hard with thelabours and certainly when I
went for that induction I don'tfeel it was an informed choice.
It was just kind of like Iwould do this for you and that's
(07:00):
that, and I was on my own inthat clinic appointment.
You're wiser the second time.
But I don't feel that wasreally informed and that I was
really aware of the risk becauseI was even listened to like my
birth plan.
When we're going in for theinduction and the midwife going
well, she's not going to get anyof that kind of hearing it
going okay, because it's quitetough.
I think when you're laboringand you're being examined and I
didn't want to be examinedbecause you're like, oh god, I'm
(07:21):
, I'm only five centimetres, I'monly seven centimetres there is
that part of your brain thatgets slightly competitive and
like I should be further and itjust always feels like you're
being assessed and you're notquite achieving or something or
not quite there.
For me, when I think of thebirths that I had, they feel
really devoid of that spiritualmidwifery.
I had a different birth thesecond time.
(07:42):
It was a caesarean because ofthe tear, no-transcript of them
(08:11):
and that kind of sadness thatnot being able to do that or
that, somehow I had failedphysically.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
yeah, just grieving the loss of this picture that
you had put into your mind.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yes, oops yeah, absolutely yes, and I struggled
with that transition to be amother.
I think sometimes when you're abit older you're used to that
independence, so it can bechallenging.
It doesn't mean I didn'tdesperately and I've had the
conversation with my child aboutthis desperately, desperately.
Call him my little miracle.
He's absolutely wonderful.
It was a big change, thatintroduction to motherhood, and
(08:47):
I was emotionally unavailable.
I was so traumatized by thewhole thing and really mental
health wise, I had to battle toget treatment.
So I was pinged between thehealth visitor and the midwife
and the health visitor was like,look you're, you're anxious and
depressed on these HAB scorebut wouldn't refer me to anybody
.
And I was like, but there's nopoint telling me, there's.
(09:07):
No, actually no point screeningme if you're not going to do
anything about it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I did eventually end up withmental health and I ended up
getting my PTSD treated, but Ishould have gone to prenatal
mental health and been undertheir care for two years and had
my birth trauma treated at thesame time.
I had to go back in the secondpregnancy to do that.
So I think for me, talkingabout that mental health issue
(09:28):
after a birth, especially thoseinstrumentals where they don't
go the way that you want it togo, you're often not listened to
and I understand that they justwant to get the baby out, but I
just the disconnection betweena bad birth and a birth further
down the line and the bondingand the impact on that child and
the mother and relationships.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I felt so guilty for such a long time I was
unavailable now would you saythat your situation is like an
abnormal case in the UK, or isthis kind of like a standard?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
no-transcript wanted to close that part of my life
back and it wasn't to complain,but it was to say, look, how can
we make this better for otherwomen?
And I was having thisdiscussion with the head of the
matron of the inpatient servicesand said, look, I've had so
many mums say to me another mumhas said she'd gone back for a
(10:55):
review and it was a totallydifferent clinician and they
actually told her factuallyincorrect stuff and she said I
didn't need to go in on that day, I could have gone in another
day.
The fact that I went in and somany other mums that I've spoken
to said they'd had this similarthing I was like why is there
not a counsellor there?
Why is there not a counsellor?
Okay, you've got a somebody amidwife or a clinician there,
(11:15):
but why is there not acounsellor when you're doing
these feedback sessions or birthreviews?
Because by the nature of youdoing them, they're traumatic.
Women are traumatised and someof these women had have lost
children.
Some of these women hadchildren when were on ICU and
didn't get to hold their babiesfor two weeks.
It was traumatic stuff.
Women who had ended up thengoing to prenatal mental health
(11:37):
and requiring treatment forbirth trauma.
And they just said, oh well,funding, and that's the way it
is but like, okay, I had PTSDbut I also ended up having birth
trauma.
When I was pregnant with mysecond child, I literally would
wake up having nightmares aboutgiving birth, even as a cesarean
, and the EMDR the rapid eyemovement, desensitization and
(12:00):
reprocessing treatment that Ihad for both birth trauma and my
PTSD meant that I had apleasurable birth.
It wasn't the birth that Iwanted, but my intention had
been look, peaceful, calm birth,everyone was well, baby fed and
I got that and she was happyand I was happy and it was calm
and that treatment totallytransformed that for me that
(12:21):
birth trauma.
So there's so many womenwandering around with trauma
after having birth and I thinkbirth trauma is probably fairly
common and referrals fortreatment and the way it's
treated, even by theobstetricians.
Because I went back for mysix-week checkup because it was
instrumental, I had to go to theclinic and they were just
(12:43):
shocked that I sobbed.
I just sobbed all the waythrough that consultation and
they sent me to the counsellorand so I went to the counsellor
a month later and she said I'mreally sorry, I don't know why
you're here and I just sat andcried and she goes I'm really
glad you're here, but actuallyyou need a psychologist, not not
me.
Come back to me if they, if youdon't get to the psychologist,
but actually that's really whatyou need.
(13:04):
So that that was an obstetricclinic that I went back to yeah,
I mean our system's quite a bitdifferent here.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I mean this conversation, I have to say, has
been very eyeopening for me,just given my own experience my
own, my oldest daughterdefinitely had birth trauma
there.
We were in the hospital forfive days post-birth.
There was a whole bunch and Ican get into that story on
another podcast, but it's it's.
We don't.
We don't really do a like a goback and talk about our birth
(13:33):
with the hospital in any way,shape or form.
I mean, our family doctorstypically are the ones that are
coming into the clinic and doingdeliveries, and I was a member
of like a family clinic wherethese doctors share patients and
whoever's on call delivers yourbaby.
Like you don't really have asay, it just depends on when you
go into labor.
That works really well and theyshare patients.
(13:55):
You have one specific family GP.
But this conversation, I justhave to say, has been incredibly
eye-opening for me and justgiven my own experience and
knowing that there are so manydifferent ways that women do
experience trauma during birth,because I think that it's not
something that we talk aboutvery often and I think it needs
(14:16):
to be a conversation that webring to the forefront,
definitely more so.
So I appreciate you being onthe show and sharing that
journey, because it's it isdefinitely.
I mean, my daughter is nowalmost 11.
But I have to say thisconversation has been a little
triggering for me personally.
So if I feel a little scatteredas you guys are listening to
this conversation, it's my brainis going in a million different
(14:38):
directions right now.
But I have to say, like, given,given your situation, given
what you've gone through and howovercome what you've come like,
gone through the PTSD, thebirth trauma how do you feel
that that helps you parent today?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I'm honest, I've had the conversation with my eldest
child about how I was unwellwhen they were born and how I
desperately wanted them, but Iwas unwell and I could probably
have been better when they wereborn.
I've had that and and,therefore, and I've had that
more than once.
So I think it does.
These things happen.
(15:15):
Pretending they haven'thappened doesn't make it better
or go away.
I think it's actually the worstthing to do, and there was a
lot of guilt for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think I probably overcompensated, but now it's
kind of like well, this happened.
It wasn't good.
I'm telling you, I love youdesperately.
You were my miracle.
You were everything I washoping for and more.
It didn't work out how I wanted.
I had to fight to get thattreatment, but you know, I want
you to know that I'm sorry ifyou felt that I wasn't there
(15:47):
because I wasn't, because theydo the babies do pick up on that
.
He cried a lot and I was lessemotionally available and I will
forever worry that that has hada negative impact.
Do you know what I mean?
So, but there's nothing I cando about that.
All I can do is go on and healmyself and I did that and get
the treatment, have a differentexperience and feedback about
(16:10):
that.
I am also going to train in theEMDR this summer as my plan.
I haven't.
I do coach as well.
A variety of stuff, but I takea bit.
I call myself a change agent,basically.
So it might be love, it mightbe money, it might be whatever.
Last time I coached, I had awhole family, the teenagers and
the mom and dad, and it was fab.
And then they, they don't needme anymore, which is wonderful
(16:31):
too, but I found it so powerfulthe EMDR and I do, I do a lot of
other stuff too that I'mplanning on training in it.
I'm not quite sure what I'mgoing to do with it, but you
know it was.
I mean, it gave me my life backand it enabled me to go from
having that birth trauma andthose nightmares to having a
really different experience withmy second.
(16:54):
I saw somebody on tv saying thisand I'm just going to say this
like losing a child or birthtrauma or stuff like that is
PTSD.
It's it's like PTSD, it's likearmy veterans coming back from
war and that's what women aregoing through with births and
how it's little overlooked byobstetricians.
That's what shocks me.
I mean I'm a medic, I've lookedafter people from all over the
(17:14):
world and and and people who'veinjected drugs and been abused
and I haven't spoken to them theway that I've been spoken to,
even as another clinician, byobstetric services and it and it
shocks me.
I mean it's the same over here.
You, you have a consultant, butit's whoever you're on call
with on the day you go to clinic.
So it's similar in that way.
(17:36):
They are obstetricians, butyeah, I'm doing it, I'm talking
about it.
I'm saying, look, this is whathappened.
Judging by the women that I'vespoken to, or even my group of
mums that I met as an NCT cast,it wasn't a unique experience.
There's plenty of other womenhad trauma in that group and out
of mum's groups and it'ssomething that why not have a
(17:56):
counselor at a feedback?
So the reviews or the feedbacksthey're not routine, but
usually if you've had atraumatic birth or you've lost a
child or something, you can askfor it.
So I asked for it.
I was like I don't understandwhat happened.
It was absolutely appalling thefirst time and I went back and
got a second with when I waspregnant second time, which is
much better, and they did gothrough it and I sobbed because
(18:17):
it was a traumatic birth and thereality was they ended up
having to put in a lot more timeto me in the consultations and
that second pregnancy and I justcannot see how the
obstetricians and thoseresponsible in maternity health
can't see that one andon-one astwo yeah, yeah, no, absolutely,
and I think it's.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I mean, all we can keep doing is bringing more
awareness around this andsharing our stories, because it
shouldn't be the norm, right,like cases like this.
I mean, yeah, things are boundto happen from now and then, but
the fact that there are momafter mom after mom having these
experiences and it's not justin the UK or in Canada, it's all
over the world there needs tobe a shift here.
(18:55):
Where it's there needs to bemore mental checks, I think,
prior to delivery, making surethat moms are aware.
I mean, for me, especially withmy first, it was like you go to
a prenatal class and it waslike, hey, this is the delivery
and you build what you, I thinkyour, plan is going to be.
And then, when you get thereand things don't go as planned,
(19:15):
there's no course of action,like nobody had prepared me for.
Okay, what if this doesn'thappen?
Or these are things that couldhappen and these are ways that
we can deal with this, like itwas just this.
This is your situation.
You're just, you're stuck herefor five days and if we have to
suction your child out more andshe stops breathing, and like
all of these things.
It's just like I was like, okay, and I remember finally getting
(19:38):
her home Nobody had said why,like the tests had changed, and
I was just staring at her.
I was like I was so afraid thatshe would stop breathing that
my husband was, like, have yougone to sleep yet?
Like you need, you need to goto sleep.
I'll watch her so that youcould sleep.
And just having somebody tellme that they would keep her eyes
on, like my husband would keepher, his eyes on her, so that I
felt comfortable, that I couldsleep right.
(19:59):
Like there's there's women thatare dealing with things like
that all over the world.
So bringing these conversationsto the forefront, I think, is
so important so that we canhopefully start to see some sort
of shift, or or that moms canbe better prepared going into
things to say like hey, likethis is an ideal situation, this
is what I would like to seewith my birth plan.
But if things go wrong, hereare some courses of action that
(20:23):
I would like to see taken sothat it's not just you wake up
basically from your, your drugsthat they fed you, so that
you're not in pain and you haveno idea really what has happened
right In the case of you andeven myself.
So I appreciate you being hereand sharing your story.
I think it's really important.
One thing that you mentionedearlier on in the podcast is
(20:44):
that you were told not toco-sleep with your first, and I
have the exact same experienceand I think, like you had said,
it was so important for you,yeah, to to feel like maybe that
that would have been part ofthe solution in that time, but
you were so fear-mongered out ofit, and I had the exact same
(21:04):
experience in Canada, and Ithink that women need to start
tuning into their intuition more.
There needs to be more of thisawareness, and I get that there
are sleep, sleep hazards, butlooking back, when I was able to
co-sleep with my second, I feltthat bond so much better.
(21:25):
Right, I just knew I was likeyou know what?
This is how I'm getting sleep,this is where she feels comfort,
and I just tuned into myintuition in that moment versus
the allowing my head to takeover, and it sounds like you had
a very similar experience yes,I mean I, I understand, I
understand why, but I thinkthere are safe ways of doing it
(21:48):
and certainly I think inhindsight now that was probably
what I needed and my childneeded.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
And I have a funny not funny, it's a crazy story.
I was telling someone this theother day.
So obviously I'm a medic andI'm asian and if you're as Asian
, my parents come from India.
They, they hear, so they theBCG vaccine.
Okay, so at two weeks I took myeldest.
For that I was so out of itthat I took them.
It wasn't, wasn't a priority.
My parents have been here foryears.
(22:13):
We don't live in a high TB area.
All the best stuff.
I would be the big TB riskbecause I've looked after a lot
of TB with being a HIV doc.
But I took them because I wasso out of it and yet so they
could do that, but yet theycouldn't give me the mental
health support.
And it's crazy, like when Ithink about it now, as they rang
me for my daughter and I waslike just go away.
I'm just not doing this by thatpoint I was, but you know I can
(22:37):
laugh about it now going.
It's actually crazy that youcould.
Two weeks.
We weren't high risk, but youknow you couldn't get me
referred for telling me I wasanxious and depressed I just
think counsellors and certainlymental health wise and even the
instrumental, like they tried todischarge me from the physio
(22:57):
like I, it massively that pelvicfloor and rectal tear massively
affected how I felt as a woman,how I felt sexually, my
function down there.
I had to battle to get back.
They tried to discharge me, thepelvic floor, the physios, and
they said, look, put down and dothis.
And I was and I played stupidand I was like no, no, I'm gonna
come back to you.
But with COVID they dischargedme and then told me to go
(23:18):
private.
But if you need a pelvic floorphysio you need a specialist,
you don't just want any other,any random physio.
That was in itself quitetraumatic because it massively
affects how you feel as a woman.
I know because I've done pelvicpain clinics.
The pelvic dysfunction was areal shock and really traumatic
(23:39):
and you're scared to look downthere.
You're scared to touch downthere.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it just sounds likethere were so many holes in the
system in your case, I mean andI know that you're not alone in
experiencing that so I meanhaving you as an MD, as a PhD,
being able to be there and, asyou called yourself, a change
(24:02):
maker, I think that that's justsuch a beautiful title that
you're able to go out and helpother women and share your story
, because, yeah, I mean, it'sjust there were so many issues
that you had to go through andface and overcome, and and your
strength is, and perseverance, Imean, is very, very inspiring,
(24:22):
and so I'm just so grateful thatyou were able to hop on here
and share some of your story.
I know that you have a coupleof books coming out soon.
Do you want to share a littlebit about those before we sign
off.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yes, I'd love to.
Well, I have a couple of things.
One is I do read.
I have read loads on socialmedia, so I have a YouTube
channel.
Things One is I do read.
I have read-alouds on socialmedia, so I have a YouTube
channel.
So if you're a mum and you wantto grab coffee and put your
child in front of a book, I'vegot a couple on there, some
lovely authors and that's AtBedtime Stories by Saloni, so
they're free and up there.
Sometimes you want to just goand have five minutes or have a
poo or just have a cry in thetoilet because something's just
(24:59):
not worked out or the kids havebeen crying.
My first book was published lastsummer and that was actually my
fourth book.
It's called Flora Investigatesthe Case of the Missing Gold
Eggs, and that is an earlychapter book, so it's seven to
nine year olds and it's about agirl detective, so I was a
little naughty.
It's based on my husband'sfriends and family.
My mother-in-law used to keepchickens and one day one went
(25:22):
missing and my husband jokedthat there had been a murder in
the garden.
So it's set in Italy becausehe's Italian and she's a girl
detective.
I don't have the front coverbut I have my bookmark.
That's Flora.
She's a girl detective and shewants to hit the big time and
there's not a lot of people thatwant to employ girl detectives
but she's not going to be heldback by society.
So she sets up her own agencyand finds her first paid case.
(25:45):
A gold egg laying chicken hasgone missing and there's a
flying boat and a dancing cheeseeating pirate and a hunter and
a lot of cats.
But it's really a book about agirl who has a dream and doesn't
give up.
I've looked after a lot ofpoverty and illiteracy so I
wanted to inspire kids throughstorytelling and books and
imagination because I know andagain with the reading not every
(26:07):
child has that at home.
So that's that and I have afirst of May.
My second book, the Last FairyGuardian, is coming out and
that's middle grade, so eight to12 year olds, and that's a
clipped wing fairy book aboutbullying and how we all get our
wings clipped at some point andhow we get them back and the
power of forgiveness.
So there's a lot of magic,there's a lot of potions,
(26:28):
there's wings, there'sfriendships forbidden
friendships between fairies andhumans.
So that's coming out in May.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Wonderful.
Well, I mean, I have two littlegirls that I know would just
love to read both of those books, so I can't wait to share those
with them.
This episode will be coming out, so we'll make sure that we can
include some links under theshow for you guys to get access
to those books and to herYouTube channel, so that you
guys can just have some storytime with your kiddos.
(26:56):
I've really enjoyed our timetogether.
Is there any last piece ofadvice that you'd like to give
the mums out there?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Oh, what can I say?
I think you're all amazing.
It's really.
You don't realise how wonderfuland amazing and messy and
beautiful it is until you gothere and it's.
There's a bond, isn't there?
I was up swimming today with mydaughter and my son was there
and one of the other mums hadgone gosh, I've forgotten the
swimming costume and we werelike just get me a swim nappy.
(27:26):
And I was like do you want toborrow my other swim nappy?
And I think that there's somereally lovely bits there, but it
can be incredibly lonely.
I remember being that mumwanting just desperately to make
some mum friends.
So I think just keep onpersevering, it will get better,
and ask for help, and sometimesyou have to fight for it, but
(27:47):
you know you deserve it, and sodo your children.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I love that.
I mean absolutely.
I think that that message isvery, very powerful and I hope
that all the mums out therelistening feel a little less
alone and just feel a littlemore empowered in their
decisions.
So thank you again for beinghere today and thank you, guys,
for tuning into today's episodewhere we help you conquer the
chaos one day at a time.
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