September 25, 2024 • 33 mins
Ever wondered why you feel perpetually exhausted despite seemingly doing everything right? Join us as we sit down with Coach Ellyn, a leading burnout and stress management expert, to uncover the mystery behind burnout and how it affects not just our professional lives but also our roles as parents and high achievers. Ellyn shares her powerful journey from an overachieving student to a burned-out graduate, and now a successful coach dedicated to helping others work less and live more. This episode promises to equip you with the tools to recognize both physical and emotional signs of burnout and offers practical strategies to bring more joy, peace, and fulfillment into your life.
Throughout our conversation, we tackle the misconception that burnout is solely an occupational hazard and explore its far-reaching impact on various aspects of life, including parenting. Ellyn discusses the physical toll of burnout—chronic exhaustion, frequent illness, analysis paralysis—while also delving into the emotional repercussions, such as emotional reactivity and a lack of fulfillment. We highlight actionable tips, like the simple yet effective practice of keeping a notebook by your bed to manage overwhelming thoughts, aiming to make coping with burnout more manageable for our listeners.
One of the standout segments focuses on the unique challenges moms face, particularly the often-overlooked boredom burnout that can occur during early motherhood. Ellyn emphasizes the importance of self-awareness tools like the Enneagram to identify personal triggers and behaviors leading to burnout. We also explore the cyclical nature of burnout among high achievers, stressing the importance of self-compassion and honest self-evaluation. Ellyn's insights reassure us that conquering chaos is not just a dream but an achievable reality, one mindful step at a time.
Find Ellyn Here:
https://www.facebook.com/coachellyn
Mama Mental Wellness Guide: https://www.sydneycrowe.com/mamamentalwellness589191
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, hey, mamas, welcome back to Conquering Chaos
.
A mom's guide to self-careinsanity.
I'm your host, sydney Crow, andtoday we have Coach Ellen.
Well, I'm so excited that CoachEllen is here today, you guys.
She is a former researchscientist, turned the number one
burnout and stress managementcoach on Google and the creator
of the Burnout Proof MembersClub and the Burnout Proof
(00:22):
Business Signature Course.
She is on a mission to helphigh achievers work less and
live more, and her work supportshundreds of Enneagram Type 3
women every year, and she's beenfeatured in Fast Company and on
stage in LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Welcome Ellen.
Thank you so much.
I'm so pumped to be here andobviously I nerd out about
burnout, so I'm very excited totalk about it with you all.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Well, I feel like it is just like serendipitous that
our paths have crossed because,as we were talking before the
show, this is geared moretowards moms, but a lot of moms
experience burnout, which is,you know, there's this notion
that we have to have do be anall be at all, and I think that
that's a great thing in theory,but the way that we are working
(01:12):
ourselves ragged to achieve thatall in this, like social media,
everybody's got the pictureperfect window out there to
achieve it all is reallydetrimental to parenting and
motherhood as a whole.
So why don't you fill thelisteners in a little bit about
who you are and what you're allabout and how this you know how
you can help moms with all ofthis, because I feel like there
(01:35):
is a reason you were broughtinto my life.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, and you know, I feel like there's a reason why
I ended up doing this work,because I'm sure a lot of the
people who are listening canresonate with the fact that you
I always say that we build thehabits and behaviors that lead
us toward burnout, starting inhigh school, like, if I throw it
back, like people are like, howdid you get to doing this work?
And I'm like, well, let methrow it back to high school
because I have been an over likean overscheduled, busy,
(02:01):
borderline, overwhelmed humanbasically my entire life.
Life.
Like when in high school I wasdoing like 80 bajillion
extracurriculars, taking likeall of the like, all the classes
, working, playing soccer.
I was busy and that was becausethat was like how I validated
myself, like I felt good aboutmyself and how I was operating
by like all the things that wereon my plate and all the things
(02:23):
that I was accomplishing and howpeople responded to not only
just like accomplishments butlike my schedule, like hearing
people say like how, how do youdo it all?
I got like some sick twistedsatisfaction out of that and
that was literally a patternthat I brought into college.
Like I remember vividly fall ofmy senior year of college I was
working for four or as working20 hours a week in a lab.
(02:44):
I had four 400 level classesthat I was taking.
I was I'm a TA for a class andI was an assistant soccer coach
and, lo and behold, myrelationship ended that fall
because I think he was just like, like you have no capacity for
me.
And that was just how Ioperated on and on and on until
I got to graduate school andthen I burned out.
In graduate school.
It was the first time mycapacity couldn't handle
(03:06):
everything that I was asking ofit and it was through finding
and realizing that I was burnedout that I started to learn
things and really started tofind things that I loved
learning about.
I was able to use I'm ascientist by training.
I was able to use my degree inlike this completely different
way to take the things that areactually like scientifically
proven but you would never know,because science does not write
(03:28):
for lay people to understandLike they are literally
evidence-based andscientifically proven to help us
stress management and to helpus better, you know, regulate
our cortisol and all of thesedifferent things.
And I wanted to take thosetools and actually apply them in
my own life and present them topeople.
No-transcript could have both,and I never realized that I
(04:09):
could have both.
More than that, it was justconstantly about pouring myself
into all of the stuff that I wasdoing.
And so, like, how I supportpeople now is I really feel like
one of the biggest ways Isupport them is I wrap words
around burnout and I wrapdefinitions around burnout that
are so recognizable for, like,how we live our life and how
these things show up in ourlives.
Like, yeah, we could say likeburnout is exhaustion, but let's
(04:32):
be honest, we're all exhaustedall the time.
So, like, what is it tangiblyactually look like when you are
physically burned out?
But what about the emotionalsides of burnout as well?
People don't even realize theiremotional sides of burnout.
Yeah, cool, emotionalexhaustion, but what is that?
What does that even look like?
Like, what does that mean on aday-to-day basis?
How does that show up?
And so I love to not only wrapwords around burnout, show
(04:56):
people this is literally what itlooks like and how it shows up
in your life, but also to givethem really, really tangible
tactical things that they can dothat are actually, like, not
crazy overwhelming.
They're very, very smalllifestyle changes that we can
make that, over the course oftime, correct us and move us
away from living a lifestyle ofburnout and more toward our
lifestyle.
What I like to say is burnoutproof.
(05:16):
And that helps us to work lessand live more and just find more
ease and joy and peace andfulfillment in our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Which is like what should be everybody's main goal.
Right, like we all want to workless, live more.
Like love more, laugh more.
You name it right Like it is.
That is the end goal.
So what would you say?
Your top three tricks or tipsare for people so that they can
step into that type of lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, I always say awareness is the first step.
So the very, very first stepthat anybody can take for
stepping into this lifestyle isyou have to be a very willing to
lean into self-awareness and Byou've got to make space for
self-awareness.
So we are, and I have datedpeople like this.
I have been friends with peoplelike this.
(06:07):
I have been this person.
We are rushing from one thingto the next, the next, the next,
the next.
There's no space in our livesfor us to slow down and actually
reflect on.
How are we feeling, what arethe things that are stressing us
out?
What are the things that areactually helping us manage
stress?
And if we don't slow down andeven ask ourselves a simple
question of like, what's working, what's not working, if we
(06:30):
can't slow down and askourselves those questions, we're
never going to be able to makethose course corrections.
We also might never be able torealize, hey, I'm freaking,
burned out and I need to dosomething different in my life,
so I always say.
That's the first step is beingable to step into a place of
non-judgment and self-compassionand look at your life and say,
(06:51):
okay, what is working and whatis not working for me?
Because if we can't do that, Ioffhandedly said in a speaking
engagement at one point in timethat burnout cannot be overcome
without compassion.
And I think that is part ofwhat self-awareness and making
space for that self-awarenesslooks like is.
It is being able to look atyour life and very, very
compassionately say you knowwhat?
(07:11):
That was too much and I'm notgoing to judge myself for not
being able to handle it, I'mjust going to acknowledge that
that did me in and that was alittle bit too much and how can
I change in the future.
So making space for that andthat can look like, you know,
having conversations with people, it can look like therapy, it
can look like journaling, it canlook like if you're super type
A, which a lot of people that Iwork with are I literally sit
(07:33):
down and I do what I call aweekly review once a week, every
week it usually happens onMondays and I just sit down and
I ask myself those questionswhat worked and what didn't work
over the course of the lastweek and former scientists.
I literally treat it like I'mfinding data points in my life,
like that's the mindset I try tostep into.
And I love that mindset becauseyou can't argue with data.
The data just is the data.
(07:53):
So if we can say like this,this schedule last Thursday
really, really exhausted me andI had no nothing left at the end
of the day to pour into myrelationships and my kids,
that's just a data point, it'snot a point of judgment, and so
I would say that's like step oneand there's so much rolled into
that.
There's so much aboutself-awareness and
self-compassion and making spacerolled into it.
(08:14):
But I think that is one of themost important things to do.
And I would say the next mostimportant thing to do, I feel
like I want to kind of stickwith like two tips because I
feel like these are the biggest.
The second most important thingto do is to treat your
day-to-day life, even yourself-care, to some respect have
minimums Daily minimums is whatI call them and I think that's a
(08:36):
really important mindset for usto step into because, again,
like high achiever, like if Iask a high achiever, what do you
want your morning routine to be.
They're going to list off like20 different things that they
want to get, 20 different thingsthat I read did that too.
When I was trying to like redomy routines earlier this year, I
realized I had to ask myselfthe question not of, like, what
do I want to do in the morning,but how do I want to feel in the
(08:58):
morning.
And by asking myself that howdo I want to feel?
Question, it ended up notbecoming a laundry list of
things that I needed to do everysingle morning.
It became I am chasing afeeling, and whatever feeling,
whatever things give me thatfeeling, that's what I'm going
to do.
So if I want to feel likeenergized and revitalized in the
(09:19):
morning, I can go for a walk orsit out in you know like very,
very crisp spring air that we'rehaving in Seattle right now.
Like I can go for a walk or sitout in you know like very, very
crisp spring air that we'rehaving in Seattle right now.
Like I can sit outside and justenjoy that.
Or I can go get a workout.
There's multiple ways in whichI can give myself that and I
just have to check off one ofthose things.
That's kind of what I mean bydaily minimums.
Instead of turning it into, Ihave to meditate for 15 minutes
(09:41):
and then I have to read for 30minutes and then I have to
journal and then I have to do a30, 45 minute workout, all
before my kids get up in themorning.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Like that's not practical on a day to day, it
might be practical occasionally.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Exactly, exactly I love that you use the word
sustainable too, because I feellike I've been trying to like,
co-opt the word sustainable backaway from like environmental
sustainability, which, no, likeI'm all for that, but like our
lives need to be sustainable.
And for most of us they're not.
We have this Pinterest,instagram worthy version of what
(10:15):
our daily routines have to looklike and what our meals have to
look like, and what our workoutroutines have to look like and
what our sleep habits have tolook like real talk.
I stayed up way too late lastnight because I got very
absorbed into a TV show and I'mmoving slowly this morning and I
have the ability to do that.
I also just didn't get a lot ofsleep and whatever.
It was imperfect last night,but it's.
(10:36):
The idea isn't to show upperfectly every single day.
It's to show up sustainably andwhat whatever sustainably looks
like and sometimes sustainablylooks like just not being such
jerks to ourselves when we showup imperfectly.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, we're needing to tune out on a show that
you're enjoying and just take abreak.
So kudos to you for doing that,and you would never know, with
your energy level, that you'reslow moving today.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I think that's because this topic just brings
the energy out of me.
I'm such a nerd about thistopic.
I love it so much.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well, while we're still on this topic, you told me
earlier that there are fourdifferent types of burnout, and
that was new to me.
So why don't you run throughthe listeners on what those four
types are?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, and I always throw the caveat out
there that, depending upon theburnout coach you talk to, they
might not break it down likethis, they might not break it
down like this, they might notdefine it in this way.
I feel like every burnout coachhas like their different ways
that they look at this, but thisis how I classify it.
So burnout has four differenttypes physical, overwhelmed,
emotional and boredom burnout.
And that last one, I find,catches a lot of people off
(11:38):
guard.
But the first three actuallyfit very nicely into like the
world health organizationdefinition of like what burnout
is.
Fun fact, the world healthorganization does not think that
burnout is a medical diagnosisand the world health
organization does not think thatburnout is more than just like
an occupational phenomenon.
So the moms hearing this willprobably get a little, a little
(11:59):
feisty about this.
Yeah, they don't believe thatyou can burn out other like, you
can only burn out at work iswhat the world health
organization thinks, which, yeah, I think we can all call BS on
that one.
They are wrong.
Yeah, ask anybody that hasmultiple children.
Or like they're just likeraising their new baby and
they're trying to get throughthe night.
Burnout is real and I'm not.
I don't even have kids, I justhave enough nephews that I know
(12:21):
this.
But, like the physical aspectof burnout, what that really
looks like is, yeah, itabsolutely looks like exhaustion
.
But how I think of it is it'slike such a depth of exhaustion
that it feels like no amount ofsleep or rest is going to help
you recover.
I stayed up too late watching aTV show last night.
I feel fine because I havegotten enough sleep and enough
rest.
The other days.
This is going to feel like youcould get 12 hours of sleep
(12:43):
every night over the course ofthe weekend and still wake up
Monday morning and feel likedeath.
But what this can also look likeand I think this is actually
one of the biggest ways thatshows up for a lot of high
achievers because, let's behonest, sometimes we're not very
self-aware of our own likeenergy levels, and one time we
may not even know what it feelslike to be fully rested, if
we're being honest.
So how it shows up for a lot ofhigh achievers is sickness,
(13:06):
repeated sickness, like you justhave like back to back to back
to back to back illnesses or youjust can't ever recover from
that.
Like cold that you had a monthago, like that cough just won't
go away.
I find that it shows up thatway a lot for high achievers,
yeah.
So that's definitely a big wayfor the physical side.
And then the overwhelm side.
I kind of think of theoverwhelm side, but it's like
(13:28):
the productivity side of burnout.
And how overwhelmed burnout canshow up is I love this
expression you feel like youhave too many tabs open in your
brain.
You're like no, I love how weall know that that's like on our
computer, like our computerliterally starts running slow
when we have too many computeror programs open or tabs open on
our computer.
Our brain can feel like that aswell and you might hear that
(13:50):
described as brain fog or youknow you could hear it described
in a lot of different ways.
But the fact of the matter iswe know the information's there.
We just can't.
We can't retrieve it, we can'taccess it.
Things are moving very, veryslowly, but what it can also
look like is like analysis,paralysis, like difficulty
making decisions, like gettingstarted on projects, handling
(14:10):
change, and I think that's areally big hallmark for high
achievers, because we areusually very like go-getter,
like you need something, youneed somebody to get stuff done.
Ask a high achiever, they will.
They will do the thing Likethey've got it.
But when we are in overwhelmburnout it's almost like we have
like lead feet, like we're justmoving slowly.
(14:30):
The decisions come more slowly,the creativity comes more
slowly, like everything justkind of feels weighed down when
we are in overwhelm burnoutbecause things are just aren't
clicking the way that they usedto.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
It's like the world is going by in like fast motion
and you're like exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And it can also look like the inability to turn off,
like if we're like kind ofdovetailing off a physical,
physical burnout, like your headhits the pillow and you are out
at night because you are justso exhausted.
But when you're in anoverwhelmed burnout you might be
tired, but when you're inoverwhelmed burnout you
literally can't fall asleepbecause your brain's going.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I experienced that.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Exactly.
I experienced that probably themost when it comes to overwhelm
, burnout, to the point where Iliterally have a notebook that
I'll keep next to my bed onnights, like that Cause.
Then I just like brained upinto the notebook and there is
something about the act ofwriting something out that, like
your brain just like inherentlyfeels like it's way more dealt
(15:28):
with.
So I'll like whatever crap'sreally it could be business
ideas, like it could be podcastideas, which always come at the
most inconvenient times, right,and I'll just be in bed and I'm
like, okay, this, this, this,this, and I just write them all
down and then it's easier for meto fall asleep.
Fair, yeah.
So that's like the overwhelmedside.
This might be a weird thing tosay, but my favorite one is
(15:49):
emotional burnout, and I thinkit's because that was the one
that I was really experiencingwhen I was in grad school and
it's the one that I find is sounder the radar for a lot of
high achievers.
There's a lot of high achieversbecause we tend to move so
quickly.
We might not be as in touchwith our emotions or as good at
managing our emotions,especially our negative emotions
(16:11):
, like we don't need positiveemotions, those like flow freely
but the negative emotions ahigh achiever might be more
inclined to like shove that downor like ignore that, push that
off to the side until it'sappropriate to deal with it.
So high achievers I findespecially women experience a
lot of emotional burnout and howthis one shows up.
This is like the fulfillmentside of burnout and it can come
(16:33):
from so many different places alack of boundaries, values,
disconnect, you know, just alack of making space to process
your negative emotions.
But how it usually shows up,like the signs of it.
This is so common with a lot ofthe clients that I see is like
emotional reactivity, quick toangers, quick to tears.
I think of a textbook example ofI had a client who she was?
(16:55):
I wanted to hug her so bad, Iwas so sad that it was like a
virtual call.
She was a nurse practitionerduring COVID when we started
working together.
Mom was on all of thesecommittees, all of this stuff,
and she's trying to explain tome what's going on in her life
and literally couldn't getthrough the explanation without
breaking down in tears.
And that I would say isactually very, very common for a
(17:16):
lot of the clients that I workwith Like the tears.
They'll be telling me a storyand then the tears come out of
nowhere and they don't even knowwhy they're getting as
emotional as they are about it.
But the reason why is they havebeen shoving that down without
feeling like they've had a safespace to unburden it for so long
.
I mean shoot, how many moms dothat?
Right, I can't break down rightnow.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, you know you'll go have 30 seconds in the
bathroom behind a closed doorand then you got to put your
face back on because you, youknow, want to be there for your
kids.
You know, it's reallyinteresting that you categorize
all three of those, because doyou find that a lot of them
overlap, or is it very like youhave a specific type of burnout
(17:58):
when you're dealing with it?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I.
I wouldn't say they overlap,but you can have multiple of
them simultaneously, which Ithink is more of kind of what
you're getting at.
I definitely think you can havemultiple simultaneously.
When I was in grad school I hadthose three physical,
overwhelming, emotional.
But what I usually find is, forthere's usually a driver,
there's usually one that is kindof the domino that toppled the
rest.
So, like when I was in gradschool, it was emotional burnout
(18:22):
because I was trying to forcemyself down this career path
just didn't jive with me andbecause of that I tried to get
myself in all sorts of differentthings to like make it better,
and I was kind of like masking,I was kind of numbing, but as a
result of that I got intooverwhelmed burnout and because
I was doing so much I then gotinto physical burnout.
So it was like this domino thattoppled the rest of them.
(18:44):
And usually that's what I findhappens.
Like you could very easily havea mom that is very emotionally
burned out and that becomesphysical burnout, because when
we're emotionally burned out wenumb a lot because we just don't
want to like our emotions canfeel so overwhelming, we just
don't want to deal, and so wenumb a lot with various
different things and that mightlead to overwhelm or physical
(19:05):
burnout or both.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Okay, interesting.
And then the last one, the lastone is boredom burnout.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I highly.
I some moms might be dealingwith this, but usually I find
this is not the biggest one Isee with the moms I work with.
But boredom burnout, I wouldsay, is kind of a subtype of
emotional burnout.
There is some overlap betweenemotional burnout and boredom
burnout.
There is a lack of fulfillment,a lack of motivation, a lack of
engagement.
But I think the biggestdifference, and the reason why I
break it out, is the causalityis so different.
(19:35):
Like emotional burnout is thereis a fundamental like
fulfillment piece that ismissing or an emotional
management piece that is missingin your life, whereas boredom
burnout really fundamentallycomes from the fact that when
you're in boredom burnout youjust feel a lack of novelty, a
lack of engagement, a lack ofchallenge in your life.
So, like the day to day, if youare somebody who typically has
(19:59):
like, for example, maybe you'reon I don't know, maybe you're on
maternity leave and youtypically have very, very
intellectually stimulating workthat you were doing day in and
day out and you're on maternityleave and you love it and you
love your kid and you are, butyou're pouring all of your
mental energy into this and itdoesn't feel as intellectually
stimulating as how you usuallyspend your day, that might
actually create a little bit ofboredom burnout, because it does
(20:22):
take a lot of energy and effortfor us to try to get ourselves
like excited and engaged insomething that's not actually
exciting and engaging to us.
I'm literally envisioning mybrother and my sister-in-law
like when my first nephew was atoddler and kind of hadn't
gotten.
He's like now into star Warsand all of this stuff and my
(20:42):
brother's like livingvicariously through his oldest
son Cause he gets to play withall of his old toys again.
It's hilarious, but like beforeit was all of kind of these
like very, very kiddie toys andsongs and whatnot, and that can
be hard for somebody who'susually doing things that are
very intellectually stimulating.
So I think that's more of athing than maybe I've
(21:03):
necessarily seen it in myday-to-day work with moms, but
definitely something that canshow up for moms, something to
just like be aware of.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, what would you say like the top triggers or the
top flags that moms should belooking for when it comes to
burnout?
Because, like you said, likewe're all, we're all tired.
I ask moms how they are on adaily basis.
Every single person that I talkto is like, oh, I'm busy, I'm
busy, right, like we're all.
We're at that level, butthere's, there is that
(21:32):
difference between being busyand tired versus burnout.
So, what would you say?
Like the top red flags are thatsomebody should be looking for
and being like, hey, maybe I'mmaybe this isn't just like you
know like I used to be that momthat joked, I was like I need an
Ivy drip of coffee.
Just put a coffee pot on an Ivydrip and I would do it jokingly
(21:53):
.
But looking back I was likethat was probably like more than
exhaustion.
You know, that was like when Iwas starting to.
You know, have my mom rage andbe in that stage, so what?
What should moms be looking for?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That's a really good question and I'm actually going
to answer this from theperspective of the thing that I
think flies under the radar themost, or the things that I think
maybe a mom wouldn't want toadmit.
Like, like you said, I think alot of moms are willing to admit
that they're busy or they'reexhausted or they need an IV
drip of coffee.
I've used that phrase and Ifeel like I shouldn't because
I'm not a mom, but, like, I'veheard that a lot and I think
(22:29):
those are things that are momsare willing to admit and it's
very easy to them associatethose with.
Okay, I might be veering towardphysical burnout, and burnout
is a spectrum, it's not a lightswitch.
So it's like you could be verymildly burned out and that's
very fixable, or you could beveering for very severe versions
of these burnout, these typesof burnout.
But like I feel like theoverwhelmed side and the
physical tide it's easier for usto fess up to.
(22:51):
I would actually say the one tokeep the biggest lookout for is
the emotional side.
So, obviously, like you'regoing to have days that you're
going to want a good cry in thebathroom for the 30 seconds you
get before your kid startspounding on the door, absolutely
.
But I would say the biggestthing I would look out for is
like kind of that, likedisconnection, and I almost
think of when I think of thisthere are.
(23:13):
I think part of the reason whyburnout's not a medical
diagnosis is there's overlapswith the emotional sides of
burnout and things likedepression, and I actually
almost feel like it could besomething that is, you know,
veering toward a like postpartumdepression kind of thing for
somebody who is a new mom.
But it's like that.
You're disconnected, you'regoing through the motions,
you're there with your kids butyou're not really there.
(23:35):
That, I think, is probably thebiggest thing to look for,
because that's a harder hole todig yourself out of.
And I think sometimes we don'twant to admit that we're feeling
like that.
I think there's a shame thatsometimes can come with that and
that's why I think that's theone we need to be most aware of.
I think it's yeah, we're superwilling to admit exhaustion,
we're super willing to admitoverwhelm, but to say that we're
(23:58):
like emotionally disconnectedor to say that we're like going
through the motions when we'rewith our kids no, no, mom wants
to say that Like no person wantsto say that about the time
they're spending with theirloved ones.
But again, that's where wealmost kind of come back to the
thing we talked about before, ofit's about being nonjudgmental,
being objective, almost likethinking of it like a data point
(24:18):
of oh man, I noticed this inmyself today and I'm not going
to judge myself for it, I'm notgoing to shame myself for it,
I'm just going to say, okay,this is what it is.
I should probably do somethingto address that sooner rather
than later, because that issomething that can really really
snowball and start to become aburnout hole that's very hard to
dig yourself out of, especiallywhen you have all of the
(24:39):
responsibilities and obligationsthat a mom has.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That's really powerful.
When you're working with a mom.
What sort of course of lengthare you working with them for?
Is it like a 90 day program?
Are you working with them for ayear, Like if a mom is feeling
like, hey, I'm definitelyfeeling some of these symptoms?
What does that look like towork with you and kind of deal
with with their burnout?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, I would say that for the most part I'm
usually in the 90 days to thesix months range, but it kind of
depends on like some peoplecome to me and they don't want
just like a life burnoutoverhaul, they want like a life
and business burnout overhaul.
So that's definitely a longerperiod of time.
But the people who are justfeeling like that emotional
disconnection and that lack offulfillment usually it's about
(25:25):
90 days to as long as six months.
And we're doing a lot of stufflike talking a lot about
self-compassion.
We're doing a lot of, you know,and I it's still amazes me
which I guess it shouldn't,because I used to be like this
how many people are so resistantto the idea of self-compassion.
And I like to frame it for a lotof people, and I think this
works especially for moms.
(25:46):
If you wouldn't say it to yourbest friend or your kid, you
shouldn't say it to yourself.
We've got to talk to ourselvesthe way that we would talk to
our best friends or our kids.
And I think that's an even moreimportant thing because, again,
kids remember.
I remember stuff my mom used tosay when I was younger, when I
was, you know, maybe a teenager,but I even remember stuff when
(26:10):
I was a preteen that my mom usedto say about herself.
I remember how my mom used totalk about her body.
I remember how my mom used totalk about her work.
You know, 20, 30 years later, Istill remember that stuff.
So we have to think about that.
That it's not.
It's not about complacency,which I feel like a lot of women
are afraid of, like you know.
Sometimes it always feels likethe world, the world's working
against us.
I can't be complacent.
Yeah, you don't want to becomplacent, but not willing to
(26:33):
give your, an unwillingness togive yourself compassion is,
frankly, going to createemotional burnout anyway, and
emotional burnout is going tolead to complacency anyway.
So, like, don't think you'regoing to get off the hook from
becoming complacent purely by,like, not being compassionate
towards yourself.
We still need to have thatcompassion.
So, like I don't even rememberhow I got on this tangent, what
was your question?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Just how long they work with you and everything.
But it sounds like it's justlike, honestly, it's a loop and
do you find clients that youknow, you kind of do the work
with them.
Maybe they work with you for 90days and then they fall back
into old.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I do find that for a lot ofhigh achievers, burnout is a
cycle, but my goal is, like I amnot about making my clients
dependent on me.
I almost try to, and that's whythat self-awareness component
is so important.
I teach every single one of myclients how to build that into
their life, because if you haveself-awareness, you can
self-coach.
If you have self-awareness, youcan identify okay, these are
(27:32):
the things that I'm doing.
If you have self-awareness, youcan identify okay, these are
the things that I'm doing.
This is how it's contributing,especially if you can step into
that mindset about not beingjudgmental, not shaming yourself
Like you're essentiallyself-coaching at that point.
So I try to teach every singleone of my clients do that.
And probably one of the mostfundamental things I teach and I
highly recommend any mom who islistening, any woman who is
listening do this Figuring outwhat your values are.
(27:53):
Any woman who is listening, dothis figuring out what your
values are.
Because actually, I thinkthat's a with a biggest
disconnect that happens when itcomes to emotional burnout is we
don't even know what our valuesare.
So how can we live inaccordance with our values,
values?
Disconnects are huge when itcomes to emotional burnout.
So I'll do values work with themand I teach them my process for
(28:14):
doing values work so that, ifyou know, values can be dynamic,
values can come into and out ofour life, though you will
probably still have four valuesthat stick with you your entire
life.
So I teach them how to do it,so they can go back and they can
evaluate their values, they cancheck in with their values.
So I try to set my clients upfor, you know, being able to
navigate things on their own.
But, that being said, I do havea lot of clients who will come
(28:37):
back, you know, maybe a year,two years down the road, because
maybe they're they'renavigating a new season in their
life and they're not sure.
You know, the things that wetalked about before aren't
necessarily working now and theyjust need a little help nudging
them in the right direction.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
But, generally speaking, that first round we
teach them enough tools andenough ways in which to be
self-aware about the things thatare causing issues for them
that they're able to manage iton their own, moving forward,
cyclical, with their burnout.
(29:10):
And I'm not surprised by it.
But it is an interesting factbecause, you know, as a
self-proclaimed type, a highachiever, like my checklist, I
have gone through cycles and Ifeel like the more I level up,
the more I lean into my business, the more I, you know, lean
into being with my kids andshowing up as the best mom that
I can be for them.
(29:31):
It's like there's all these,like it's like playing Mario
right when it's just like thenext level's unlocked and it
gets a little bit harder andthen there's challenges.
So that's really insightfulthat you feel like it's.
It's also cyclical.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And it is for me too, like I've been super
transparent about this and I'vesaid new level, new devil so
many times over the course ofthe last eight months.
I had just went full-time in mybusiness earlier this year
because I am single, I don'thave a second income.
I was very cautious about goingfull-time in my business too
soon and so I just did, and thereason I did is because doing my
business and my day job wasjust getting too much.
(30:06):
This last fall I burned out.
I burned out this past fall.
I took on too many speakingengagements in too short of a
period of time, for whateverreason.
My brain was like oh, they'relocal, it's not going to be that
bad, I don't have to fly.
And it was bad and like thosesigns of physical burnout that I
listed off earlier.
That was me this past fall andit was because I was excited, I
(30:29):
had momentum in my business, andthat's why I think it is a
cycle for high achievers.
I find for most high achievers,the first time they burn out is
usually the worst.
Usually we learn.
If we're self-aware, usually welearn and we can kind of tamper
it down the next time it showsup.
But it's that enthusiasm, thatthis is how I find worthiness
and validation and this is how Ifeel enough is by making this
(30:52):
contribution and the way inwhich people respond to the
contributions you're making, andthat's why I think it's so
important to understand yourpersonality type.
I love the Enneagram for this,because I think the Enneagram
explains for so many people whythey drive themselves toward
burnout, what habits, behaviorsand mindsets are causing them to
walk that line.
And yeah, for a lot of highachievers, it's just our passion
(31:15):
isn't necessarily a good thing.
Like passion can be a problem,actually, when it comes to
burnout contrary to what GaryVee says and other people say,
like we've got to be carefulwith it.
But that self awareness, if wehave that, we make space for
that Like shoot.
If you take anything from thispodcast, that's it
Self-awareness.
If you have that and if you cancreate that, you're going to be
able to manage your burnout andeven though the first time
(31:37):
might suck, you're going to getbetter at it and better at it
and better at it.
You're just it's like that pathto success.
Like it's you swing too far inone direction, you're going to
course correct and you're goingto swing too far back in the
other direction, but slowly butsurely you're going to find the
yourself to be on.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, which is really cool, amazing.
Well, did you have any lastpiece of advice to give the
listeners before we sign offtoday, ellen oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I mean I think I think just reiterating the two
things that I say the most toall of my clients you cannot
overcome burnout withoutcompassion and that
self-awareness is the first step.
I know I've said those a lot,but honestly, if you only listen
to the last five minutes,that's what I want you to take.
So those little kernels rightthere, and just know that it's
possible.
It is possible to get yourselfto that place.
(32:20):
You might have to release somemindsets.
You might have to release, youknow, some of the things that
worked before might not work now.
And it's about again.
It's about just evaluating andbeing honest with yourself and
not shaming or judging yourselffor anything that comes out of
it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I love that so much and thank you so much for being
here today and thank you, guys,for tuning in to today's episode
, where we help you conquer thechaos, one day at a time.
Hey, hey, mamas, welcome back to Conquering Chaos
.
A mom's guide to self-careinsanity.
I'm your host, sydney Crow, andtoday we have Coach Ellen.
Well, I'm so excited that CoachEllen is here today, you guys.
She is a former researchscientist, turned the number one
burnout and stress managementcoach on Google and the creator
of the Burnout Proof MembersClub and the Burnout Proof
(00:22):
Business Signature Course.
She is on a mission to helphigh achievers work less and
live more, and her work supportshundreds of Enneagram Type 3
women every year, and she's beenfeatured in Fast Company and on
stage in LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Welcome Ellen.
Thank you so much.
I'm so pumped to be here andobviously I nerd out about
burnout, so I'm very excited totalk about it with you all.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Well, I feel like it is just like serendipitous that
our paths have crossed because,as we were talking before the
show, this is geared moretowards moms, but a lot of moms
experience burnout, which is,you know, there's this notion
that we have to have do be anall be at all, and I think that
that's a great thing in theory,but the way that we are working
(01:12):
ourselves ragged to achieve thatall in this, like social media,
everybody's got the pictureperfect window out there to
achieve it all is reallydetrimental to parenting and
motherhood as a whole.
So why don't you fill thelisteners in a little bit about
who you are and what you're allabout and how this you know how
you can help moms with all ofthis, because I feel like there
(01:35):
is a reason you were broughtinto my life.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, and you know, I feel like there's a reason why
I ended up doing this work,because I'm sure a lot of the
people who are listening canresonate with the fact that you
I always say that we build thehabits and behaviors that lead
us toward burnout, starting inhigh school, like, if I throw it
back, like people are like, howdid you get to doing this work?
And I'm like, well, let methrow it back to high school
because I have been an over likean overscheduled, busy,
(02:01):
borderline, overwhelmed humanbasically my entire life.
Life.
Like when in high school I wasdoing like 80 bajillion
extracurriculars, taking likeall of the like, all the classes
, working, playing soccer.
I was busy and that was becausethat was like how I validated
myself, like I felt good aboutmyself and how I was operating
by like all the things that wereon my plate and all the things
(02:23):
that I was accomplishing and howpeople responded to not only
just like accomplishments butlike my schedule, like hearing
people say like how, how do youdo it all?
I got like some sick twistedsatisfaction out of that and
that was literally a patternthat I brought into college.
Like I remember vividly fall ofmy senior year of college I was
working for four or as working20 hours a week in a lab.
(02:44):
I had four 400 level classesthat I was taking.
I was I'm a TA for a class andI was an assistant soccer coach
and, lo and behold, myrelationship ended that fall
because I think he was just like, like you have no capacity for
me.
And that was just how Ioperated on and on and on until
I got to graduate school andthen I burned out.
In graduate school.
It was the first time mycapacity couldn't handle
(03:06):
everything that I was asking ofit and it was through finding
and realizing that I was burnedout that I started to learn
things and really started tofind things that I loved
learning about.
I was able to use I'm ascientist by training.
I was able to use my degree inlike this completely different
way to take the things that areactually like scientifically
proven but you would never know,because science does not write
(03:28):
for lay people to understandLike they are literally
evidence-based andscientifically proven to help us
stress management and to helpus better, you know, regulate
our cortisol and all of thesedifferent things.
And I wanted to take thosetools and actually apply them in
my own life and present them topeople.
No-transcript could have both,and I never realized that I
(04:09):
could have both.
More than that, it was justconstantly about pouring myself
into all of the stuff that I wasdoing.
And so, like, how I supportpeople now is I really feel like
one of the biggest ways Isupport them is I wrap words
around burnout and I wrapdefinitions around burnout that
are so recognizable for, like,how we live our life and how
these things show up in ourlives.
Like, yeah, we could say likeburnout is exhaustion, but let's
(04:32):
be honest, we're all exhaustedall the time.
So, like, what is it tangiblyactually look like when you are
physically burned out?
But what about the emotionalsides of burnout as well?
People don't even realize theiremotional sides of burnout.
Yeah, cool, emotionalexhaustion, but what is that?
What does that even look like?
Like, what does that mean on aday-to-day basis?
How does that show up?
And so I love to not only wrapwords around burnout, show
(04:56):
people this is literally what itlooks like and how it shows up
in your life, but also to givethem really, really tangible
tactical things that they can dothat are actually, like, not
crazy overwhelming.
They're very, very smalllifestyle changes that we can
make that, over the course oftime, correct us and move us
away from living a lifestyle ofburnout and more toward our
lifestyle.
What I like to say is burnoutproof.
(05:16):
And that helps us to work lessand live more and just find more
ease and joy and peace andfulfillment in our lives.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Which is like what should be everybody's main goal.
Right, like we all want to workless, live more.
Like love more, laugh more.
You name it right Like it is.
That is the end goal.
So what would you say?
Your top three tricks or tipsare for people so that they can
step into that type of lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, I always say awareness is the first step.
So the very, very first stepthat anybody can take for
stepping into this lifestyle isyou have to be a very willing to
lean into self-awareness and Byou've got to make space for
self-awareness.
So we are, and I have datedpeople like this.
I have been friends with peoplelike this.
(06:07):
I have been this person.
We are rushing from one thingto the next, the next, the next,
the next.
There's no space in our livesfor us to slow down and actually
reflect on.
How are we feeling, what arethe things that are stressing us
out?
What are the things that areactually helping us manage
stress?
And if we don't slow down andeven ask ourselves a simple
question of like, what's working, what's not working, if we
(06:30):
can't slow down and askourselves those questions, we're
never going to be able to makethose course corrections.
We also might never be able torealize, hey, I'm freaking,
burned out and I need to dosomething different in my life,
so I always say.
That's the first step is beingable to step into a place of
non-judgment and self-compassionand look at your life and say,
(06:51):
okay, what is working and whatis not working for me?
Because if we can't do that, Ioffhandedly said in a speaking
engagement at one point in timethat burnout cannot be overcome
without compassion.
And I think that is part ofwhat self-awareness and making
space for that self-awarenesslooks like is.
It is being able to look atyour life and very, very
compassionately say you knowwhat?
(07:11):
That was too much and I'm notgoing to judge myself for not
being able to handle it, I'mjust going to acknowledge that
that did me in and that was alittle bit too much and how can
I change in the future.
So making space for that andthat can look like, you know,
having conversations with people, it can look like therapy, it
can look like journaling, it canlook like if you're super type
A, which a lot of people that Iwork with are I literally sit
(07:33):
down and I do what I call aweekly review once a week, every
week it usually happens onMondays and I just sit down and
I ask myself those questionswhat worked and what didn't work
over the course of the lastweek and former scientists.
I literally treat it like I'mfinding data points in my life,
like that's the mindset I try tostep into.
And I love that mindset becauseyou can't argue with data.
The data just is the data.
(07:53):
So if we can say like this,this schedule last Thursday
really, really exhausted me andI had no nothing left at the end
of the day to pour into myrelationships and my kids,
that's just a data point, it'snot a point of judgment, and so
I would say that's like step oneand there's so much rolled into
that.
There's so much aboutself-awareness and
self-compassion and making spacerolled into it.
(08:14):
But I think that is one of themost important things to do.
And I would say the next mostimportant thing to do, I feel
like I want to kind of stickwith like two tips because I
feel like these are the biggest.
The second most important thingto do is to treat your
day-to-day life, even yourself-care, to some respect have
minimums Daily minimums is whatI call them and I think that's a
(08:36):
really important mindset for usto step into because, again,
like high achiever, like if Iask a high achiever, what do you
want your morning routine to be.
They're going to list off like20 different things that they
want to get, 20 different thingsthat I read did that too.
When I was trying to like redomy routines earlier this year, I
realized I had to ask myselfthe question not of, like, what
do I want to do in the morning,but how do I want to feel in the
(08:58):
morning.
And by asking myself that howdo I want to feel?
Question, it ended up notbecoming a laundry list of
things that I needed to do everysingle morning.
It became I am chasing afeeling, and whatever feeling,
whatever things give me thatfeeling, that's what I'm going
to do.
So if I want to feel likeenergized and revitalized in the
(09:19):
morning, I can go for a walk orsit out in you know like very,
very crisp spring air that we'rehaving in Seattle right now.
Like I can go for a walk or sitout in you know like very, very
crisp spring air that we'rehaving in Seattle right now.
Like I can sit outside and justenjoy that.
Or I can go get a workout.
There's multiple ways in whichI can give myself that and I
just have to check off one ofthose things.
That's kind of what I mean bydaily minimums.
Instead of turning it into, Ihave to meditate for 15 minutes
(09:41):
and then I have to read for 30minutes and then I have to
journal and then I have to do a30, 45 minute workout, all
before my kids get up in themorning.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Like that's not practical on a day to day, it
might be practical occasionally.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Exactly, exactly I love that you use the word
sustainable too, because I feellike I've been trying to like,
co-opt the word sustainable backaway from like environmental
sustainability, which, no, likeI'm all for that, but like our
lives need to be sustainable.
And for most of us they're not.
We have this Pinterest,instagram worthy version of what
(10:15):
our daily routines have to looklike and what our meals have to
look like, and what our workoutroutines have to look like and
what our sleep habits have tolook like real talk.
I stayed up way too late lastnight because I got very
absorbed into a TV show and I'mmoving slowly this morning and I
have the ability to do that.
I also just didn't get a lot ofsleep and whatever.
It was imperfect last night,but it's.
(10:36):
The idea isn't to show upperfectly every single day.
It's to show up sustainably andwhat whatever sustainably looks
like and sometimes sustainablylooks like just not being such
jerks to ourselves when we showup imperfectly.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, we're needing to tune out on a show that
you're enjoying and just take abreak.
So kudos to you for doing that,and you would never know, with
your energy level, that you'reslow moving today.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I think that's because this topic just brings
the energy out of me.
I'm such a nerd about thistopic.
I love it so much.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Well, while we're still on this topic, you told me
earlier that there are fourdifferent types of burnout, and
that was new to me.
So why don't you run throughthe listeners on what those four
types are?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, yeah, and I always throw the caveat out
there that, depending upon theburnout coach you talk to, they
might not break it down likethis, they might not break it
down like this, they might notdefine it in this way.
I feel like every burnout coachhas like their different ways
that they look at this, but thisis how I classify it.
So burnout has four differenttypes physical, overwhelmed,
emotional and boredom burnout.
And that last one, I find,catches a lot of people off
(11:38):
guard.
But the first three actuallyfit very nicely into like the
world health organizationdefinition of like what burnout
is.
Fun fact, the world healthorganization does not think that
burnout is a medical diagnosisand the world health
organization does not think thatburnout is more than just like
an occupational phenomenon.
So the moms hearing this willprobably get a little, a little
(11:59):
feisty about this.
Yeah, they don't believe thatyou can burn out other like, you
can only burn out at work iswhat the world health
organization thinks, which, yeah, I think we can all call BS on
that one.
They are wrong.
Yeah, ask anybody that hasmultiple children.
Or like they're just likeraising their new baby and
they're trying to get throughthe night.
Burnout is real and I'm not.
I don't even have kids, I justhave enough nephews that I know
(12:21):
this.
But, like the physical aspectof burnout, what that really
looks like is, yeah, itabsolutely looks like exhaustion
.
But how I think of it is it'slike such a depth of exhaustion
that it feels like no amount ofsleep or rest is going to help
you recover.
I stayed up too late watching aTV show last night.
I feel fine because I havegotten enough sleep and enough
rest.
The other days.
This is going to feel like youcould get 12 hours of sleep
(12:43):
every night over the course ofthe weekend and still wake up
Monday morning and feel likedeath.
But what this can also look likeand I think this is actually
one of the biggest ways thatshows up for a lot of high
achievers because, let's behonest, sometimes we're not very
self-aware of our own likeenergy levels, and one time we
may not even know what it feelslike to be fully rested, if
we're being honest.
So how it shows up for a lot ofhigh achievers is sickness,
(13:06):
repeated sickness, like you justhave like back to back to back
to back to back illnesses or youjust can't ever recover from
that.
Like cold that you had a monthago, like that cough just won't
go away.
I find that it shows up thatway a lot for high achievers,
yeah.
So that's definitely a big wayfor the physical side.
And then the overwhelm side.
I kind of think of theoverwhelm side, but it's like
(13:28):
the productivity side of burnout.
And how overwhelmed burnout canshow up is I love this
expression you feel like youhave too many tabs open in your
brain.
You're like no, I love how weall know that that's like on our
computer, like our computerliterally starts running slow
when we have too many computeror programs open or tabs open on
our computer.
Our brain can feel like that aswell and you might hear that
(13:50):
described as brain fog or youknow you could hear it described
in a lot of different ways.
But the fact of the matter iswe know the information's there.
We just can't.
We can't retrieve it, we can'taccess it.
Things are moving very, veryslowly, but what it can also
look like is like analysis,paralysis, like difficulty
making decisions, like gettingstarted on projects, handling
(14:10):
change, and I think that's areally big hallmark for high
achievers, because we areusually very like go-getter,
like you need something, youneed somebody to get stuff done.
Ask a high achiever, they will.
They will do the thing Likethey've got it.
But when we are in overwhelmburnout it's almost like we have
like lead feet, like we're justmoving slowly.
(14:30):
The decisions come more slowly,the creativity comes more
slowly, like everything justkind of feels weighed down when
we are in overwhelm burnoutbecause things are just aren't
clicking the way that they usedto.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
It's like the world is going by in like fast motion
and you're like exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And it can also look like the inability to turn off,
like if we're like kind ofdovetailing off a physical,
physical burnout, like your headhits the pillow and you are out
at night because you are justso exhausted.
But when you're in anoverwhelmed burnout you might be
tired, but when you're inoverwhelmed burnout you
literally can't fall asleepbecause your brain's going.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I experienced that.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Exactly.
I experienced that probably themost when it comes to overwhelm
, burnout, to the point where Iliterally have a notebook that
I'll keep next to my bed onnights, like that Cause.
Then I just like brained upinto the notebook and there is
something about the act ofwriting something out that, like
your brain just like inherentlyfeels like it's way more dealt
(15:28):
with.
So I'll like whatever crap'sreally it could be business
ideas, like it could be podcastideas, which always come at the
most inconvenient times, right,and I'll just be in bed and I'm
like, okay, this, this, this,this, and I just write them all
down and then it's easier for meto fall asleep.
Fair, yeah.
So that's like the overwhelmedside.
This might be a weird thing tosay, but my favorite one is
(15:49):
emotional burnout, and I thinkit's because that was the one
that I was really experiencingwhen I was in grad school and
it's the one that I find is sounder the radar for a lot of
high achievers.
There's a lot of high achieversbecause we tend to move so
quickly.
We might not be as in touchwith our emotions or as good at
managing our emotions,especially our negative emotions
(16:11):
, like we don't need positiveemotions, those like flow freely
but the negative emotions ahigh achiever might be more
inclined to like shove that downor like ignore that, push that
off to the side until it'sappropriate to deal with it.
So high achievers I findespecially women experience a
lot of emotional burnout and howthis one shows up.
This is like the fulfillmentside of burnout and it can come
(16:33):
from so many different places alack of boundaries, values,
disconnect, you know, just alack of making space to process
your negative emotions.
But how it usually shows up,like the signs of it.
This is so common with a lot ofthe clients that I see is like
emotional reactivity, quick toangers, quick to tears.
I think of a textbook example ofI had a client who she was?
(16:55):
I wanted to hug her so bad, Iwas so sad that it was like a
virtual call.
She was a nurse practitionerduring COVID when we started
working together.
Mom was on all of thesecommittees, all of this stuff,
and she's trying to explain tome what's going on in her life
and literally couldn't getthrough the explanation without
breaking down in tears.
And that I would say isactually very, very common for a
(17:16):
lot of the clients that I workwith Like the tears.
They'll be telling me a storyand then the tears come out of
nowhere and they don't even knowwhy they're getting as
emotional as they are about it.
But the reason why is they havebeen shoving that down without
feeling like they've had a safespace to unburden it for so long
.
I mean shoot, how many moms dothat?
Right, I can't break down rightnow.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, you know you'll go have 30 seconds in the
bathroom behind a closed doorand then you got to put your
face back on because you, youknow, want to be there for your
kids.
You know, it's reallyinteresting that you categorize
all three of those, because doyou find that a lot of them
overlap, or is it very like youhave a specific type of burnout
(17:58):
when you're dealing with it?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I.
I wouldn't say they overlap,but you can have multiple of
them simultaneously, which Ithink is more of kind of what
you're getting at.
I definitely think you can havemultiple simultaneously.
When I was in grad school I hadthose three physical,
overwhelming, emotional.
But what I usually find is, forthere's usually a driver,
there's usually one that is kindof the domino that toppled the
rest.
So, like when I was in gradschool, it was emotional burnout
(18:22):
because I was trying to forcemyself down this career path
just didn't jive with me andbecause of that I tried to get
myself in all sorts of differentthings to like make it better,
and I was kind of like masking,I was kind of numbing, but as a
result of that I got intooverwhelmed burnout and because
I was doing so much I then gotinto physical burnout.
So it was like this domino thattoppled the rest of them.
(18:44):
And usually that's what I findhappens.
Like you could very easily havea mom that is very emotionally
burned out and that becomesphysical burnout, because when
we're emotionally burned out wenumb a lot because we just don't
want to like our emotions canfeel so overwhelming, we just
don't want to deal, and so wenumb a lot with various
different things and that mightlead to overwhelm or physical
(19:05):
burnout or both.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Okay, interesting.
And then the last one, the lastone is boredom burnout.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
I highly.
I some moms might be dealingwith this, but usually I find
this is not the biggest one Isee with the moms I work with.
But boredom burnout, I wouldsay, is kind of a subtype of
emotional burnout.
There is some overlap betweenemotional burnout and boredom
burnout.
There is a lack of fulfillment,a lack of motivation, a lack of
engagement.
But I think the biggestdifference, and the reason why I
break it out, is the causalityis so different.
(19:35):
Like emotional burnout is thereis a fundamental like
fulfillment piece that ismissing or an emotional
management piece that is missingin your life, whereas boredom
burnout really fundamentallycomes from the fact that when
you're in boredom burnout youjust feel a lack of novelty, a
lack of engagement, a lack ofchallenge in your life.
So, like the day to day, if youare somebody who typically has
(19:59):
like, for example, maybe you'reon I don't know, maybe you're on
maternity leave and youtypically have very, very
intellectually stimulating workthat you were doing day in and
day out and you're on maternityleave and you love it and you
love your kid and you are, butyou're pouring all of your
mental energy into this and itdoesn't feel as intellectually
stimulating as how you usuallyspend your day, that might
actually create a little bit ofboredom burnout, because it does
(20:22):
take a lot of energy and effortfor us to try to get ourselves
like excited and engaged insomething that's not actually
exciting and engaging to us.
I'm literally envisioning mybrother and my sister-in-law
like when my first nephew was atoddler and kind of hadn't
gotten.
He's like now into star Warsand all of this stuff and my
(20:42):
brother's like livingvicariously through his oldest
son Cause he gets to play withall of his old toys again.
It's hilarious, but like beforeit was all of kind of these
like very, very kiddie toys andsongs and whatnot, and that can
be hard for somebody who'susually doing things that are
very intellectually stimulating.
So I think that's more of athing than maybe I've
(21:03):
necessarily seen it in myday-to-day work with moms, but
definitely something that canshow up for moms, something to
just like be aware of.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, what would you say like the top triggers or the
top flags that moms should belooking for when it comes to
burnout?
Because, like you said, likewe're all, we're all tired.
I ask moms how they are on adaily basis.
Every single person that I talkto is like, oh, I'm busy, I'm
busy, right, like we're all.
We're at that level, butthere's, there is that
(21:32):
difference between being busyand tired versus burnout.
So, what would you say?
Like the top red flags are thatsomebody should be looking for
and being like, hey, maybe I'mmaybe this isn't just like you
know like I used to be that momthat joked, I was like I need an
Ivy drip of coffee.
Just put a coffee pot on an Ivydrip and I would do it jokingly
(21:53):
.
But looking back I was likethat was probably like more than
exhaustion.
You know, that was like when Iwas starting to.
You know, have my mom rage andbe in that stage, so what?
What should moms be looking for?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
That's a really good question and I'm actually going
to answer this from theperspective of the thing that I
think flies under the radar themost, or the things that I think
maybe a mom wouldn't want toadmit.
Like, like you said, I think alot of moms are willing to admit
that they're busy or they'reexhausted or they need an IV
drip of coffee.
I've used that phrase and Ifeel like I shouldn't because
I'm not a mom, but, like, I'veheard that a lot and I think
(22:29):
those are things that are momsare willing to admit and it's
very easy to them associatethose with.
Okay, I might be veering towardphysical burnout, and burnout
is a spectrum, it's not a lightswitch.
So it's like you could be verymildly burned out and that's
very fixable, or you could beveering for very severe versions
of these burnout, these typesof burnout.
But like I feel like theoverwhelmed side and the
physical tide it's easier for usto fess up to.
(22:51):
I would actually say the one tokeep the biggest lookout for is
the emotional side.
So, obviously, like you'regoing to have days that you're
going to want a good cry in thebathroom for the 30 seconds you
get before your kid startspounding on the door, absolutely
.
But I would say the biggestthing I would look out for is
like kind of that, likedisconnection, and I almost
think of when I think of thisthere are.
(23:13):
I think part of the reason whyburnout's not a medical
diagnosis is there's overlapswith the emotional sides of
burnout and things likedepression, and I actually
almost feel like it could besomething that is, you know,
veering toward a like postpartumdepression kind of thing for
somebody who is a new mom.
But it's like that.
You're disconnected, you'regoing through the motions,
you're there with your kids butyou're not really there.
(23:35):
That, I think, is probably thebiggest thing to look for,
because that's a harder hole todig yourself out of.
And I think sometimes we don'twant to admit that we're feeling
like that.
I think there's a shame thatsometimes can come with that and
that's why I think that's theone we need to be most aware of.
I think it's yeah, we're superwilling to admit exhaustion,
we're super willing to admitoverwhelm, but to say that we're
(23:58):
like emotionally disconnectedor to say that we're like going
through the motions when we'rewith our kids no, no, mom wants
to say that Like no person wantsto say that about the time
they're spending with theirloved ones.
But again, that's where wealmost kind of come back to the
thing we talked about before, ofit's about being nonjudgmental,
being objective, almost likethinking of it like a data point
(24:18):
of oh man, I noticed this inmyself today and I'm not going
to judge myself for it, I'm notgoing to shame myself for it,
I'm just going to say, okay,this is what it is.
I should probably do somethingto address that sooner rather
than later, because that issomething that can really really
snowball and start to become aburnout hole that's very hard to
dig yourself out of, especiallywhen you have all of the
(24:39):
responsibilities and obligationsthat a mom has.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That's really powerful.
When you're working with a mom.
What sort of course of lengthare you working with them for?
Is it like a 90 day program?
Are you working with them for ayear, Like if a mom is feeling
like, hey, I'm definitelyfeeling some of these symptoms?
What does that look like towork with you and kind of deal
with with their burnout?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, I would say that for the most part I'm
usually in the 90 days to thesix months range, but it kind of
depends on like some peoplecome to me and they don't want
just like a life burnoutoverhaul, they want like a life
and business burnout overhaul.
So that's definitely a longerperiod of time.
But the people who are justfeeling like that emotional
disconnection and that lack offulfillment usually it's about
(25:25):
90 days to as long as six months.
And we're doing a lot of stufflike talking a lot about
self-compassion.
We're doing a lot of, you know,and I it's still amazes me
which I guess it shouldn't,because I used to be like this
how many people are so resistantto the idea of self-compassion.
And I like to frame it for a lotof people, and I think this
works especially for moms.
(25:46):
If you wouldn't say it to yourbest friend or your kid, you
shouldn't say it to yourself.
We've got to talk to ourselvesthe way that we would talk to
our best friends or our kids.
And I think that's an even moreimportant thing because, again,
kids remember.
I remember stuff my mom used tosay when I was younger, when I
was, you know, maybe a teenager,but I even remember stuff when
(26:10):
I was a preteen that my mom usedto say about herself.
I remember how my mom used totalk about her body.
I remember how my mom used totalk about her work.
You know, 20, 30 years later, Istill remember that stuff.
So we have to think about that.
That it's not.
It's not about complacency,which I feel like a lot of women
are afraid of, like you know.
Sometimes it always feels likethe world, the world's working
against us.
I can't be complacent.
Yeah, you don't want to becomplacent, but not willing to
(26:33):
give your, an unwillingness togive yourself compassion is,
frankly, going to createemotional burnout anyway, and
emotional burnout is going tolead to complacency anyway.
So, like, don't think you'regoing to get off the hook from
becoming complacent purely by,like, not being compassionate
towards yourself.
We still need to have thatcompassion.
So, like I don't even rememberhow I got on this tangent, what
was your question?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Just how long they work with you and everything.
But it sounds like it's justlike, honestly, it's a loop and
do you find clients that youknow, you kind of do the work
with them.
Maybe they work with you for 90days and then they fall back
into old.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Oh, that's a really good question.
I do find that for a lot ofhigh achievers, burnout is a
cycle, but my goal is, like I amnot about making my clients
dependent on me.
I almost try to, and that's whythat self-awareness component
is so important.
I teach every single one of myclients how to build that into
their life, because if you haveself-awareness, you can
self-coach.
If you have self-awareness, youcan identify okay, these are
(27:32):
the things that I'm doing.
If you have self-awareness, youcan identify okay, these are
the things that I'm doing.
This is how it's contributing,especially if you can step into
that mindset about not beingjudgmental, not shaming yourself
Like you're essentiallyself-coaching at that point.
So I try to teach every singleone of my clients do that.
And probably one of the mostfundamental things I teach and I
highly recommend any mom who islistening, any woman who is
listening do this Figuring outwhat your values are.
(27:53):
Any woman who is listening, dothis figuring out what your
values are.
Because actually, I thinkthat's a with a biggest
disconnect that happens when itcomes to emotional burnout is we
don't even know what our valuesare.
So how can we live inaccordance with our values,
values?
Disconnects are huge when itcomes to emotional burnout.
So I'll do values work with themand I teach them my process for
(28:14):
doing values work so that, ifyou know, values can be dynamic,
values can come into and out ofour life, though you will
probably still have four valuesthat stick with you your entire
life.
So I teach them how to do it,so they can go back and they can
evaluate their values, they cancheck in with their values.
So I try to set my clients upfor, you know, being able to
navigate things on their own.
But, that being said, I do havea lot of clients who will come
(28:37):
back, you know, maybe a year,two years down the road, because
maybe they're they'renavigating a new season in their
life and they're not sure.
You know, the things that wetalked about before aren't
necessarily working now and theyjust need a little help nudging
them in the right direction.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
But, generally speaking, that first round we
teach them enough tools andenough ways in which to be
self-aware about the things thatare causing issues for them
that they're able to manage iton their own, moving forward,
cyclical, with their burnout.
(29:10):
And I'm not surprised by it.
But it is an interesting factbecause, you know, as a
self-proclaimed type, a highachiever, like my checklist, I
have gone through cycles and Ifeel like the more I level up,
the more I lean into my business, the more I, you know, lean
into being with my kids andshowing up as the best mom that
I can be for them.
(29:31):
It's like there's all these,like it's like playing Mario
right when it's just like thenext level's unlocked and it
gets a little bit harder andthen there's challenges.
So that's really insightfulthat you feel like it's.
It's also cyclical.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And it is for me too, like I've been super
transparent about this and I'vesaid new level, new devil so
many times over the course ofthe last eight months.
I had just went full-time in mybusiness earlier this year
because I am single, I don'thave a second income.
I was very cautious about goingfull-time in my business too
soon and so I just did, and thereason I did is because doing my
business and my day job wasjust getting too much.
(30:06):
This last fall I burned out.
I burned out this past fall.
I took on too many speakingengagements in too short of a
period of time, for whateverreason.
My brain was like oh, they'relocal, it's not going to be that
bad, I don't have to fly.
And it was bad and like thosesigns of physical burnout that I
listed off earlier.
That was me this past fall andit was because I was excited, I
(30:29):
had momentum in my business, andthat's why I think it is a
cycle for high achievers.
I find for most high achievers,the first time they burn out is
usually the worst.
Usually we learn.
If we're self-aware, usually welearn and we can kind of tamper
it down the next time it showsup.
But it's that enthusiasm, thatthis is how I find worthiness
and validation and this is how Ifeel enough is by making this
(30:52):
contribution and the way inwhich people respond to the
contributions you're making, andthat's why I think it's so
important to understand yourpersonality type.
I love the Enneagram for this,because I think the Enneagram
explains for so many people whythey drive themselves toward
burnout, what habits, behaviorsand mindsets are causing them to
walk that line.
And yeah, for a lot of highachievers, it's just our passion
(31:15):
isn't necessarily a good thing.
Like passion can be a problem,actually, when it comes to
burnout contrary to what GaryVee says and other people say,
like we've got to be carefulwith it.
But that self awareness, if wehave that, we make space for
that Like shoot.
If you take anything from thispodcast, that's it
Self-awareness.
If you have that and if you cancreate that, you're going to be
able to manage your burnout andeven though the first time
(31:37):
might suck, you're going to getbetter at it and better at it
and better at it.
You're just it's like that pathto success.
Like it's you swing too far inone direction, you're going to
course correct and you're goingto swing too far back in the
other direction, but slowly butsurely you're going to find the
yourself to be on.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, which is really cool, amazing.
Well, did you have any lastpiece of advice to give the
listeners before we sign offtoday, ellen oh goodness.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I mean I think I think just reiterating the two
things that I say the most toall of my clients you cannot
overcome burnout withoutcompassion and that
self-awareness is the first step.
I know I've said those a lot,but honestly, if you only listen
to the last five minutes,that's what I want you to take.
So those little kernels rightthere, and just know that it's
possible.
It is possible to get yourselfto that place.
(32:20):
You might have to release somemindsets.
You might have to release, youknow, some of the things that
worked before might not work now.
And it's about again.
It's about just evaluating andbeing honest with yourself and
not shaming or judging yourselffor anything that comes out of
it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I love that so much and thank you so much for being
here today and thank you, guys,for tuning in to today's episode
, where we help you conquer thechaos, one day at a time.
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com