September 26, 2025 β’ 38 mins
What if the wood we throw away could build the cities of tomorrow?
πEvery year, millions of tons of βwaste woodβ from storms, demolition, and urban trees are trashed. But companies like Cambium are turning salvaged lumber into carbon-smart building materials. From mass timber buildings to sustainable furniture, this shift could change the future of construction forever.
In this Conscious Design Podcast, Cambium co-founder Theo Hooker reveals how their βUber for Logsβ platform is reshaping the circular economy of wood with full carbon tracking, supply chain transparency, and scalable solutions for architects, builders, and designers.
π If you care about sustainable construction, mass timber, or circular economy materials, this episode is packed with insights you wonβt want to miss.
π This episode covers:
Why waste wood is the hidden solution for sustainable construction
How Cambium created an βUber for Logsβ platform for arborists & sawmills
Mass timber, millwork, and furniture made from salvaged lumber
The rise of thermally modified wood in design and architecture
How circular forestry and carbon-smart wood support climate action
β© Jump to your favorite parts:
00:00 - Welcome to Conscious Design Podcast
00:37 - Meet Theo Hooker: Co-Founder of Cambium
00:56 - The Genesis of Cambium: Combining Technology and Lumber
01:27 - Addressing Climate Change with Innovative Solutions
05:56 - Cambium's Product and Service Offerings
07:42 - Innovations in Lumber Supply and Transportation
23:02 - Thermally Modified Wood: A Sustainable Solution
30:45 - Grading and Utilizing Salvaged Material
33:55 - Connecting the Dots in the Lumber Industry
About Theo Hooker and Cambium
Theo Hooker is the Co-Founder and Chief Commercial Officer at Cambium, where he leads sales and supply teams to bring salvaged lumber and waste wood to market while supporting the supply needs of enterprise clients.
Cambium makes it easy to buy, sell, move, and track fiber through a transparent digital platform. Working across the entire lumber supply chain, Cambium maximizes the use of salvaged material at the best value while delivering carbon tracking and supply chain transparency data for architects, builders, and manufacturers.
πππΌπ»π»π²π°π ππΆππ΅ Theo Hooker and Cambium
Website: https://cambiumcarbon.com/Β
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theo-hooker/Β
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cambiumcarbon/Β
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cambiumcarbon/Β
ππ²π ππ΅π² βππΌπ»ππ°πΆπΌππ ππ²ππΆπ΄π»β π―πΌπΌπΈ: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KNMN9BT
Β Learn more: https://www.consciousdesignhaus.com/
Want to turn visionary ideas into market-ready, sustainable products? π https://www.petermanfirm.com/
π€ ππ²πβπ ππΌπ»π»π²π°π:
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We basically, we call it informally an Uber for logs.
So we connect tree service companies and arborists to
sawmills. So if you are an arborist, you
can post that to our platform and then we work with local
sawmills so they can claim that load and then we coordinate
logistics and transport. Hello and welcome to the
(00:26):
Conscious Design podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman and
I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7 figure businesses.
Join me for another episode where sustainability meets
innovation and business savvy. Today I'm really excited to have
Theo Hooker here. He is a Co founder of Cambium
where they are revolutionizing the crossroads of technology and
(00:47):
lumber. So hopefully we'll do more.
Well, we'll go to the show. Absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me, it's great to be here.
Absolutely. Well, before we get too far into
everything, let's start with what what got you to decide to
tackle this? This is a anybody that starts to
talk about forestry, lumber, allof that plus technology.
(01:12):
That's like 2 giant worlds combining into one.
So what was your what got you togo?
Yeah, let's let's Co found something in this space.
I'll give you the two parts to the to the answer 1 is sort of
the the existential, you know, why focus on this type of
problem and then specifically the cambium and how that got
started on the larger picture thing, I'm a big believer that
(01:37):
we have a lot of tools to address climate change and by
the climate crisis. And there will be new
technology, there will be new inventions, but a lot of ground
can be made by connecting systems in a different way,
utilizing materials in a new way, looking at trash in a
different way and connecting those docks that haven't been
(01:57):
connected before. And so my background is really
in their food and sustainability.
But my Co founder, one of my Co founders, Ben was working at the
World Resources Institute looking at reforestation in the
US. We have a lot of land, we can
plant a lot of trees. And he zoomed in on urban
reforestation and particularly how, you know, the impacts of
(02:21):
people and climate. Obviously during the pandemic we
saw a lot of mental health benefits of trees people loved,
you know, outdoor access, parks,etcetera.
Nothing like a global experiment.
Right exactly. Now we have some, We have the
proof we didn't know before, butnow we're now we're sure.
But he kept finding more and more of these examples of this
(02:41):
massive amount of wood waste that didn't fit neatly into the
traditional lumber industry. And so the fundamental idea was,
or the question was there has tobe a way to connect this wasted
material into the supply chain that already exists, that
already is processing this type of material, just from a
(03:02):
different source, turn it into into a valuable product and then
reinvest those profits and valueback into tree planting into
those communities. And since then, you know, we
kept pulling that the thread andfinding more and more of these
pockets of wasted material. So from wildfire mitigation
(03:23):
efforts on the West Coast to hurricane disaster relief on
East Coast and everything in between, there's so much that
doesn't fit neatly into the traditional lumber industry.
And part of that, our hypothesiswas and still is that having
technology, having visibility and chain of custody data and
tools to not only identify that material quickly connect it to
(03:48):
the supply chain, to sawmills, to manufacturers and then enable
that view and that data to be accessible by customers was a
fee linking component to make this material more accessible.
Amazing. As soon as you mentioned supply
chain, there's a lot to deal just just in that pocket of what
you what you've been talking about.
But kind of jumping to the one of the first things you talked
(04:11):
about is you thinking of, you know, there's a lot of solutions
out there and that one of the things that I lived by basically
is I'm convinced 100% we have all the solutions, We just have
not put them in the right spot necessarily.
It's one of those I've worked inall kinds of industries and it's
always fascinating to see when you step into a new industry and
(04:34):
realize, oh, they've actually solved something.
If you could just take that and move it over here, this other
industry, it would it would blowtheir minds and solve so many
problems. And so I love that idea,
everybody. Hey, let's actually look at look
at all those things. And then, yeah, re reconnect the
dots in a different, different way.
So love that love that kind of thinking process that creates
(04:58):
these kind of solutions. So let's get into what exactly
material like we talked about what you're talking about, like
waste what and I've a lot of people, there's everything from
what you were talking about, even people who've spoken about
fact that like when a city trimstheir trees, there can sometimes
you know, a tree falls down, right, it gets just thrown away
(05:21):
or burnt at best, no bet. Maybe it's just most likely just
put in with all the other yard debris and nobody gets anything
out of it. There's no benefit.
What are you creating with? So you have all this very
different material which up until now most people go, well,
(05:42):
that's cool, that's not valuable.
What are you? What have you been able to do
with that? To be able to turn that on its
head and go, no, it's actually, it's actually worth something,
you should, you should use it. Yeah, we have the way we talk
about our business because it does span the entire supply
chain. So it is there a lot of moving
(06:03):
parts. The way we break it down is by
the products and the services that we offer.
Some of those physical, some of those are digital.
So on the physical product side,we really have 3 core product
avenues. 1 is structural applications for mass timber.
So the leading product there is cross laminated timber.
(06:24):
Obviously for low, medium, high rise buildings instead of using
entirely or maybe in some capacity steel and concrete, we
can use lumber as growing as a country.
Manufacturing is growing in lotsof ways and we just our real
opportunity to integrate salvagematerial into that supply chain
(06:45):
because on using per board basis, the actual grade or
character is less important whenthese panels are pressed and
combined together. So that's one product we're
really excited about and bringing that to market in
bigger ways. The next one is millwork, non
structural components, so interior flooring, accent walls,
ceilings and then exterior decking, fencing side and you
(07:08):
have a handful of products and species there and then lumber
for furniture companies. So you want to invest in a local
or more sustainable material. You want to have local
manufacturing. We can help connect that into
the supply chain according to your existing supply chain
there. So those are our physical
products and again, we work across from sawmills to wood,
(07:33):
you know secondary processors tothat manufacturer or end
customer or brand company to make that possible.
And then part of making that possible is then we go to the
digital offerings that we have. So across that supply chain, if
you think of it in three stages,getting fallen fiber or wasted
(07:53):
material in. So in log form traditionally
getting that two sawmills, that's stage 1.
Stage 2 is then turning that loginto lumber and to a usable sort
of raw material. That's stage 2.
And then stage 3 is turning intoa final product and getting it
to a customer. So we have a handful of digital
tools that plug in at each stagethere.
(08:14):
So on that front end, we basically, we call it informally
an Uber for logs. So we connect tree service
companies and arborists to sawmills.
So if you are an arborist, you connect a lot logs throughout
your, you know, weekly or monthly jobs to fill the truck,
you can post that to our platform and then we work with
(08:36):
local sandals so they can claim that load and then we coordinate
logistics and transport. So right now we're not a active
in the Northeast in the Mid-Atlantic.
We're starting in the the Southeast to deploy that and
then eventually we'll scale intoyou know the other wood baskets
of the country through upper Midwest, Pacific Northwest
etcetera. And then we have internal tools
(08:59):
for tracking material. So from chain of custody
perspective, from sawmills to wood products companies to end
use, we want to be able to show where that material came from,
who touched it and the associated carbon and impact
metrics associated. With that show people, yeah, it
is really the same would be collected.
There's no if there's no bait and switch.
(09:20):
We didn't burn it anyway. Exactly.
New lumber? Yep.
And part of that too is, you know, with an eye towards
adoption in a bigger way. We are working with large
industrial sawmills who accessing salvage material, but
because the market is relativelynew and growing, you know,
(09:40):
they're not spending time and energy to separate that fiber
out. So you might get, say.
Oh, right. You know 100 logs that go into
the system that are from a salvage source, but they just
get mixed in with the thousand other logs that they would be
getting from their traditional. Sources.
So they haven't been. They just look at it and go can
we use it? Yes, no.
OK. And rather than saying 01
(10:03):
percent is from this, there's notracking of that.
Yet, and so that's where we wantto not only promote that.
So if you're, you know, a company and you have specific
grade expectations or, or something like that, we can
offer a, a blended offering. Basically, we know that, you
know, this batch of wood you're getting is going to be 20%
(10:24):
salvage material because of the sawmill that we work with and we
have that that tracking or we can do the 1 to 1, you know, say
this exact board is what you're getting.
Obviously those are different price points and different, you
know, levels of engagement in that supply chain that's
required, but with an eye towards adoption with these
bigger mill and bigger clients. Trying to get this to your
(10:45):
approach so you can start say it's a 20% then very similar to
FSC or other recycled products. OK, what do we need to do to get
to 506070? Right.
Percentage, you know of, of salvage material.
So there's a few avenues there that we are both in combining
our physical products with our digital products to enable more
(11:05):
access both on the supply side with sawmills and then obviously
the demand side and customers. So that's a little bit of an
overview of how do we think about getting more material and
then pulling more material out. Hey, it's your host.
Ian, I'm really glad you're enjoying this episode.
I absolutely love highlighting amazing brands and founders for
the awesome things they are doing.
(11:27):
I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and businesses
like yours turn their boldest ideas into powerful, purpose
driven brands. So if you're serious about.
Building a brand people love, like our guests and clients too,
and one that you're proud to stand behind.
I invite you to dive a bit deeper with our book Conscious
Design. Inside you'll discover the exact
framework and steps we use to help entrepreneurs like you turn
(11:49):
purpose into a powerful, impact driven brand.
Brand that stands out, tracks loyal customers and drive
sustainable growth with social and environmental responsibility
woven into its DNA. Grab your copy today you.
Can find it on our website consciousdesignhouse.com or just
find the link below in the show notes.
Enjoy the rest of the episode and don't forget to like,
(12:10):
subscribe and share. Got it.
And then as a company, right, ifyou're at the the consumer
level, then you have, if you're,if you're doing the tracking
right, you can say with certainty, Hey, customer, this
(12:31):
chair is made out of either a percentage.
We could, you could be somethinglike that where it's a, it's 80%
recycled, recovered, however they want to term it, or they
could even even opt for 100% or whatever that blend is.
But then that's something that you can out of the brand be able
to share ultimately, because andthe end customer is the one one
(12:53):
that everyone's got to got to show something to for it all be
worth it. But you can actually, you're
actually able to do that then ifyou using your guys's
technology. Correct.
I'm curious how has the role obvious you're growing?
How's the role of been of being Uber for locks?
I guess the very interesting andI know there's a lot of
(13:13):
innovation on like the truck trucking industry in general.
Just material transportation is kind of keeps getting turned on
his head. I feel like there's a lot of
wasted things. So how I guess what have you
been seeing as you've been goingthrough and how's that, how's
that gone in terms of getting people on board of think, even
(13:35):
thinking about things that way? Because it's it's a totally
different process than just throw it back of your your truck
and then dump it off at the the yard with its location.
Yeah, we look at it through a. Few.
Different lenses that this is first a group or a few different
groups that have not had technology built for them.
(13:56):
So arborist go throughout their their normal day and they
typically get logs from those you know from their from their
jobs. And yes, likely the easiest
solution is to cut it off into small chunks and chip it or take
it to a landfill, right? There on site.
Right. You got to empty the load and
get to the next job. If they're lucky, you know, if
(14:17):
they're having a truck or a loader that can actually support
logs, they might call someone, they might have a guy or a
connection who no they'll come by and you know, give them 1000
bucks for the logs or something like that.
But yeah, like maybe a firewood scenario for sale like that's,
that's one of the few things I could think of You could.
Frank. Value enough.
(14:38):
Right. And part of that is inconsistent
in the demand. You don't know if someone's
going to want it or not. And also lack of transparency
and what you're actually valuingthe material as.
Maybe if one month you get $1000, next month you get 1600
or something like that. But it's there's no transparency
in what you're getting. And so the main service offering
for them is we can give you a consistent and transparent
(15:02):
revenue line for what you originally thought of as a
liability and a waste from theseprojects and make it really easy
for you to, you know, take a picture, prep the logs and get
someone to come in and pick it up.
So that's really that the main value proposition to these
arborists is providing them another revenue stream to their
(15:24):
business and making it easy to move that material, right?
Making it actually worth not chipping it.
Basically, you have to be more worthwhile than renting A
chipper for four hours, Yeah, and chipping it.
Right. And and if there's, you know
what we're starting to do some customer research on, you know,
homeowner had to choose between an arborist that took part in
(15:47):
this type of system versus one that didn't.
I don't know. We don't have any hard data on
this, but I would assume that a lot of homeowners would prefer
that the arborist that contributes to this type of
salvaging. Now it becomes a marketing tool
for the arborist to say, hey, wedon't just burn everything that
we get from here. We we actually can go be useful.
(16:07):
Right. And then to the next stage or
I'll jump over the truckers for now, I'll come back.
But then to the sawmill. And you know the very basic
value proposition is we can get you more material and obviously
we have standardized grades and it's very transparent and easy
to coordinate and grade. You claim a log or a load and
(16:30):
it's not graded properly or you actually get a bunch of, you
know, subpar logs that you can'tactually use.
You can grade that give that feedback to the arborist and
that's, you know, similar to your, you know, a rating system.
You can realize I was like I'm two star load and you obviously.
Are you able to tell, 'cause I wouldn't, at least most
(16:51):
arborists that I know, they're not necessarily grading right?
They're just, they're going, hey, here's a tree, chopped it
down, now we're done. Like grade.
Whereas like what you're talkingabout the mill, lumber mill,
they grade, they're like, Oh yeah, here's here's the grade.
We know exactly what it is. We know based based on all that.
(17:12):
So are you, you're helping to connect those two dots and
facilitate that kind of grading system?
Yeah. And it's kind of, you know,
imagining, but there's obviouslythere's always so much you can
know by just looking at the, youknow, the butt end of a log.
Once you open it up, you see allthat whatever's inside.
And so our goal is to make sure the arborist knows the checklist
(17:35):
of things that they can do to ensure that they get the highest
of value for their logs, which is really, is it straight or is
it current? Is it the sort of visual
indicators should translate to ahigher price per log there and
we have a whole sort of log prepvideo course that arborists can
(17:55):
take, so you know. How to?
Organize them, how to prep them,how to cut them so that it's
really easy for a trucker to come and load them and go.
And those are all parts of the, you know, process that an
arborist gets could get dinged on or or you know, graded on
through the process. And then the SAML obviously once
they open it up and they can actually they get summarize
(18:18):
reports all that load. So we can say of the logs of the
species, here's actually what wegot from that and we can then
cross reference, OK, this is what we thought, this is what we
got, was it accurate, was it offwhat we miss that kind of thing.
And so that's where we're getting a lot of data to be able
to hopefully make those as closeas possible.
(18:39):
Right, eliminate some of the potential errors.
Exactly. And then the last piece,
obviously, as you mentioned, there's a lot of variability
across trucking, across regions,across types of things, a types
of goods that are being transported.
And what we really want to do isbuild relationships with these
small independent trucking companies to just give them
(19:02):
another source to be able to transport loads.
We actually work with a lot of groups that use us on their back
halls. So they have a shipment, Oh
yeah, going in One Direction, and then their truckers can just
check our platform on their way back to see if they could pick
up a load, right. Eliminating some of those empty.
Yeah, there's some crazy, I forgot the percentages act act
(19:25):
exactly, but I know it's a there's a crazy amount of empty
load. Just drives where it's just I
need the truck here. I got to get it there.
Whether something's in it or not, I still need the truck and
the bed over there. Yep.
So then transport something. So that's great.
So you're able to actually be some of these companies are
actually able to tap into the yours of these additional.
(19:48):
Maybe we can fill up some of those empty and make it not a
well wasted waste. Not really.
Wait, an inefficient trip. We'll call it that.
Exactly, exactly. And that's where, you know,
right when you look at this partof the supply chain, you have
these three players, the arborist or the folks, you know,
salvaging the material. The sawmills who want it and
(20:09):
then the truckers who are getting it from point A to point
B. When we think about zooming out,
how do we actually make change in the supply chain?
Looking and having the demand coal helps this whole system go.
So from the very early on, earlyon, I can be advisors, friends,
mentors cautioned us that we were doing too much.
(20:31):
We were trying to approach, you know, too much of the supply
chain and there's there's wisdomin that, of course.
But now we're at a point where because we do work across the
supply chain, because we can speak the language of all these
different players, because we can play with all these leverage
points, supply input, processingand then demand can actually get
(20:54):
more adoption of our technology,but also of the material itself,
which is exciting to see start to actually be a real benefit to
us. Right, I wanted to ask you about
you said arborist and other, butyou've you've also mentioned,
you know, forest fire prevention.
There's also just after after forest fire clean up.
There's so many different ways kind of what areas have you
(21:18):
found are the most? I'd imagine there are certain
scenarios where maybe the material isn't good enough to be
used. So how I guess what are the
areas that you're seeing that are really good that have been
working for you to actually get quality enough to actually be
worthwhile? And are there any that you've
tried and then maybe they just not not worked out as areas that
(21:43):
you can't expand it too? Sure.
And do you mean areas in, you know, product or end uses or
like geographic regions or actual species?
Like products like Yeah, I'm imagining you.
Could probably operate most. Of the US, at least.
Yeah. So and no, we're, we are doing
that actively and across hardwoods and softwoods there.
(22:06):
So on the product side, we thinkof it, you know where we are now
in terms of mass timber millworkand furniture.
You really asked over the last 4-4 or five years of
understanding what the market needs are and what people want
versus what's actually possible with salvage material, the
quality, the consistency, etcetera.
(22:27):
We feel really good about these three offerings in terms of, you
know, in many ways, we have the skews mapped out, we have our,
for the millwork side of things.We have our profiles, we have
our dimensions. We don't feel like we need to
expand anymore. You know, we've kind of gotten
the subset of species that are available and now and, and, you
know, matching out the demand and what we think will continue
(22:50):
to grow. And so now it's just continuing
to build the supply chain for scale, integrating technology to
make it more seamless and reallypushing forward across those.
And just as a a tangible example, like 1 product,
particularly for outdoor applications is thermal modified
red oak. You know, Mid-Atlantic and lots
(23:11):
of parts of the US, we have a lot of red oak, but it's not
really in design, you know, highdesign these days people don't
go to rust. It had a Tay day, but now it's
really being chipped and wasted or just uses pallets.
A lot of pallet manufacturers utilize red oak because it's
available there. Nobody else wants it.
So exactly exactly so through a process called thermal
(23:36):
modification, which is just a natural high heat drying
process, we can turn red oak into that normally does not do
well outside into a rot and weather resistant product that
is price competitive and performance competitive with
(23:57):
your, you know tropical hardwoods, your plastic
composites and certainly your. Without doing a chemical, so I
know one of the one of the favourites is just chemical
treat the lumber and that's whatright one way to make anything
resistant, right? Yeah, we had that thought.
No, that's we don't want to go down that path.
But no, just so thermal modification, it's not a new
(24:18):
technology or innovation. It was originated in Northern
Europe almost 2 decades ago, buthas just started to come into
the US for the mainstream manufacturing sort of
infrastructure. But it is a high feet, low
oxygen, no oxygen kiln that. OK.
Basically you bake the material,so you are baking off the
(24:39):
starches and the sugars that bacteria, fungi, bugs would.
All the traditionally. Eat exactly right and then
you're actually closing the pores to make material more
hydrophobic and water. Resistant.
And so we're really excited about, you know, thermally
mocite, red oak. Similarly, we're working doing
some tests for thermal Poplar and other offerings.
(25:02):
You you're at least testing, butyou think you can use it on
multiple species of what? It's not limited to just red.
Yep. OK.
Thermal red, we have thermal pine.
We're starting to do thermal toppler and get that out more
and more thermally modified. Soft Maple is actually an
interesting option because it it's, it's something about Maple
(25:24):
that doesn't make it usable outside.
OK, but you get this really rich, almost walnut looking
interior offering. Interesting.
So it changes kind of imagine ifyou're baking it, it's going to
have some physical look changes.Is that or does it retain?
(25:44):
Does it still like when you put the red oak through, does it
still basically look like red oak or is it does it the
cosmetic change too? Is it something like from an
architectural interior design standpoint, it could be an
interesting material because it's there is no other way to
get that. You're right, it is also a
(26:04):
cosmetic change as well. So like I mentioned, traditional
red oak, if not really in designtrends anymore, lead to red.
So after thermal modification, thermal red oak becomes this
beautiful chocolate brown. Color.
Oh wow. OK.
And obviously if you wanted to put an additional sealant or
finish on it, it sort of retainsthat color a little bit longer,
(26:27):
but then it was. Is it still stainable?
Like is it it takes stain and things like that as easily?
Did You Know? Yeah, it would do a finish, you
know, just UV protectant or something like that.
We have seen we do have some options that add some color
tones to it. You could go lighter, you can go
a little bit darker, but traditionally folks just want
like the wood, cut the wood and they also it'll Gray out in
(26:50):
patina similar to other outdoor wood products over time.
And so adding a layer finish canjust help preserve that color if
that's what you want as well. And so similarly, pine, Poplar,
soft Maple, there's a cosmetic change that happens that it's
usually a darkening of that species.
Interesting. Usually I mean there's dry.
(27:13):
People have been drying lumber for a long time, but not really
high heat. So I guess that's the innovation
is using a temperature where it doesn't self combust, but it is
still a lot higher than what youthink of as like drying in a
lumber yard or something that before or after processing,
right. It's something it's a different
temperature than that. Interesting.
(27:35):
Well, that's exciting to see because there's obviously
there's a push. People want more natural, but
then they also want it to survive outside.
Yep, which puts chemical treatedat a odds, but limiting,
limiting options. So that's very cool to hear that
you guys have this. This is starting to come around
(27:56):
and you're able to use it on multiple multiple species.
And just last, last point to addon that, I think one of our what
we see, one of our big goals or responsibilities in this space
is to educate and provide a lookinto how the sausage is made, so
to speak. So and in particularly with
(28:17):
current offerings, whether pressure treated or chemically
treated material or even tropical hardwood, we are a
common question we get is OK, great.
How does this compare to eBay asan example?
We can't argue that eBay is one of the best, strongest, cuffest,
most, you know, long lasting natural wood materials out
(28:39):
there. It's grown in the rainforest.
It's made to be in harsh environments with lots of it
lives. There it just.
Lives there. You can't argue with that and
it's important to understand theprocess it is required to turn
to make your you know 100 squarefoot you paid that or your
boardwalk made out of eBay and the.
That's not cutting pine. Exactly, and that's it's not
(29:01):
only that you know the land, actual like number of trees,
actual acres of material that isrequired for that, but then
obviously the shipping and all the pieces that to get that to
where you are. And I think it's so our
perspective is, you know, we can't convince you to, you know,
we can't make you make a decision one way or another, but
we want you to have all the information of the impact of
(29:23):
that product decision. We'll do.
If you can actually make a comparison, then you can have, I
think it's that informed decision where is if you just
look, if all you know is that, then you go, OK, well, yeah, of
course it's going to do great. I'll put it outside, it'll be
fine, right and not. But if you don't have that
comparison or if you're going well, it's either that or
(29:43):
pressure washed, which that doesn't look good or chemical
that that's not like your options.
Are those the only things that come to mind?
Then if you have the money for it, you're just going to you're
just going to pick that because there's no other options.
So definitely the education. I feel like those people know
more than it's, Oh, there is, there is actually another option
(30:07):
that isn't this ugly stuff that nobody wants or super expensive.
Amazing. I'm curious as far as the
material that you're able to intake, right.
You obviously have to grade. You can't just you know, I can't
handle you a stick from the fromthe ground.
It's like this thick. It's not going to be what you're
looking for. So kind of what is the range of
(30:28):
raw material input that you can actually use?
Obviously doesn't have to be a giant oak tree, but what kind of
parameters have you found actually gets you that raw
material that you can, that a lumber mill will actually buy
that you can actually use? What does that?
What does that look like? Very technically with the the
(30:49):
Uber for Lungs platform, which is called Mill market
recommended that earlier, there's very clear size
constraints or very minimums that we have to get.
So it's really you're looking at16 to 18 inches minimum DBH
diameter breast height to make that worth anyone's while on the
Somnol side of things. And then you need at least 8
(31:13):
feet 6 inches long from. And if you look at a true
standing, you can kind of imagine from the the stump or
where you would cut the stump, which is as close to the ground
as possible due to just beneath first branch.
When branches start to come in, that's where you see nodding and
just variation in material. That quality?
(31:34):
Quality for use, Yeah, knots arenot fun.
Right. And so that's, that's the basic,
you know, size parameters from aintake perspective.
And then obviously you know thatwhen you're thinking, when we're
thinking about biomass and the whole tree mentality is
obviously the trunk is just one part.
You have the crown, you have thebranches, you have all this
(31:55):
other. And so a lot of our focus is on
the log because that has the potential to be the highest in
value recycled or salvage part of it.
We're starting to do more work on the biomass by the things.
OK, so where, what, what can we do with all that, the branch and
the leaves that you know that everything else that we have
(32:17):
obviously so much more volume upcompared to the log that comes
from a single tree. So we're working on that.
And then you asked earlier aboutthe product rings or the array
of products and we really think that across mass timber, you
know work furniture within that we can span a pretty big array
of grades to meet those product expectations and those we try to
(32:40):
map those as much to existing grading certifications as
possible. So what if it's hardwood working
with the NHLA, the National Hardwood Lumber Association, or
on the softwoods, the National Softwood Association board to
see, OK, what are we talking about and how does that map to
on the hardwood side, you know, your FAS and select grades to #1
(33:04):
common to #2 common and pretty much we can match a lot of
material to that. And then obviously that helps
with right sizing pricing with right sizing volume and
expectations across the board. So really what we're trying to
do, we're not trying to do like reinvent the wheel here.
A lot of this has been figured out.
So it's more of a mapping exercise.
(33:26):
Right you're you're going here'sthe wheel.
How do we how do we line it up so that we're not doing playing
over here where nobody actually has a supply.
You're really just going OK, well what can we get that
somebody's was going to throw away and then where does it
where can they plug in What are the channels of this company
wants grades X through Y cool. Let the make sure they're those
(33:51):
are getting in in a truck and going to them.
And then how do you just again connecting the dots but not
reinventing the dots? Right, one that's you said
exactly. It's going back to the the point
I made at the, you know, at the beginning is just putting in the
effort that has not been done tomap this sort of underutilized
(34:11):
undressed material to the existing system and make that as
easy as possible. And so that's really how we
think about, you know, whether it's grading material input,
just getting to the system and then work with big groups like
FSC, SFI who are setting certifications and the standards
for sustainable forest management and things like that.
(34:32):
Salvage material is a very new concept in relation to those
grades. And so working with them again,
we don't want to be a new certification body.
That's it's a whole kind of that's.
A whole other layer about everything.
We just want to make sure that our the data that we're
collecting across the supply chain, the standards we're
(34:53):
setting with arborist sawmills, etcetera, can map to these
existing systems. Right.
A is a, not something else. Still, if you need a, you get A
and that's, you know, confusion.Amazing.
I love that. I think it's, I think it's
really important. People come up with a lot of
(35:13):
innovation and anytime you can do something where you don't
have to have this massive leap and behavior of everyone, that's
where you get the fastest and the most highest acceptance
rate. So it's, I love what you guys
are doing and thinking about this so that, hey, how do we
make it? Arborist or whoever, whoever's
(35:35):
chopping the tree down, how to make it easy for them to go,
yeah, this is good. Here you go.
Here's the logs. Take it away, connecting
everything so that you're not noone per like everyone's changing
their behavior a little bit, which effectively you're making
a pretty big change when you stack up all their behavior
changes together, but you're notloading one person up and going
(35:59):
all right, you have to change. You have to do a 180 here and
then nobody else doesn't does anything else.
You you're taking it all on yourself.
You're letting it be this spreadout increment.
See, it feels like incremental but adds up.
I feel like it has up pretty quickly by the time you're done
the system. So I know system changing whole
(36:19):
system is big and challenging asall your your advisors have
talked about. But I really when you can
execute it well, it's actually less pressure.
I feel like there's a lot of less pressure that happens when
you do it that way, even though it's it is big and scary when
you. It's different.
That's where we see, you know, to your point of what we have
(36:42):
the solution. I think that's where when those
things start to come together, that's when we see the real
impact across the system. Right, right.
Well, I love it and this has been this has been a pleasure.
I love talking about what you guys are doing.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to make sure I know you shared the
app name, but if there's any other things that people should
(37:03):
be aware of. And then also, what's the best
way to reach out to you, connectwith you If municipalities, I've
talked to some people about, youknow, the city, the city has
their own contractor that take out trees and redo like that's a
whole supply chain for you guys.Anybody like how?
What's the best way to reach outto you guys, connect,
(37:25):
potentially partner? Yeah, I would say the fail safe
can be in partof.com. We have a contact form.
Shoot us a note there. Let us know who you are and what
you're interested in. That's the easy one, but
breaking it down a little bit because we do have a lot going
on. If you are.
On the salvage side, so arboristtree service company, trucker
(37:46):
mill market is is where to go. So just mill market.net, there's
contact forms and you'll be directed to to the right folks
there. If you are in the wood products
world, in the manufacturing side, whether it's a sawmill or
a wood products company or on the demand side of architect
designer, you know, using wood in some way and want to learn
(38:08):
more, head over to carbonsmartwood.com that gives
an overview of our materials, our offerings, and obviously
there's a contact form as well. You can reach me.
My e-mail is just Theo TNGO at cambiumcarbon.com.
Happy to chat and yeah, we look forward to hearing from.
Anyone amazing? Well, thank you so much for
taking your time to talk and looking forward to see what else
(38:30):
you guys do and the impact you can make.
Amazing. Thanks so much for having me.
It's a pleasure. And that wraps up another
episode of The Conscious Design.Podcast if today's episode.
Inspired you to bring your. Product idea to life and turn it
into a sustainable 7 figure business.
Visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below.
Your ideas have the power to change the world and we're here
(38:52):
to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and
I'll see you on the next episode.
We basically, we call it informally an Uber for logs.
So we connect tree service companies and arborists to
sawmills. So if you are an arborist, you
can post that to our platform and then we work with local
sawmills so they can claim that load and then we coordinate
logistics and transport. Hello and welcome to the
(00:26):
Conscious Design podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman and
I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7 figure businesses.
Join me for another episode where sustainability meets
innovation and business savvy. Today I'm really excited to have
Theo Hooker here. He is a Co founder of Cambium
where they are revolutionizing the crossroads of technology and
(00:47):
lumber. So hopefully we'll do more.
Well, we'll go to the show. Absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me, it's great to be here.
Absolutely. Well, before we get too far into
everything, let's start with what what got you to decide to
tackle this? This is a anybody that starts to
talk about forestry, lumber, allof that plus technology.
(01:12):
That's like 2 giant worlds combining into one.
So what was your what got you togo?
Yeah, let's let's Co found something in this space.
I'll give you the two parts to the to the answer 1 is sort of
the the existential, you know, why focus on this type of
problem and then specifically the cambium and how that got
started on the larger picture thing, I'm a big believer that
(01:37):
we have a lot of tools to address climate change and by
the climate crisis. And there will be new
technology, there will be new inventions, but a lot of ground
can be made by connecting systems in a different way,
utilizing materials in a new way, looking at trash in a
different way and connecting those docks that haven't been
(01:57):
connected before. And so my background is really
in their food and sustainability.
But my Co founder, one of my Co founders, Ben was working at the
World Resources Institute looking at reforestation in the
US. We have a lot of land, we can
plant a lot of trees. And he zoomed in on urban
reforestation and particularly how, you know, the impacts of
(02:21):
people and climate. Obviously during the pandemic we
saw a lot of mental health benefits of trees people loved,
you know, outdoor access, parks,etcetera.
Nothing like a global experiment.
Right exactly. Now we have some, We have the
proof we didn't know before, butnow we're now we're sure.
But he kept finding more and more of these examples of this
(02:41):
massive amount of wood waste that didn't fit neatly into the
traditional lumber industry. And so the fundamental idea was,
or the question was there has tobe a way to connect this wasted
material into the supply chain that already exists, that
already is processing this type of material, just from a
(03:02):
different source, turn it into into a valuable product and then
reinvest those profits and valueback into tree planting into
those communities. And since then, you know, we
kept pulling that the thread andfinding more and more of these
pockets of wasted material. So from wildfire mitigation
(03:23):
efforts on the West Coast to hurricane disaster relief on
East Coast and everything in between, there's so much that
doesn't fit neatly into the traditional lumber industry.
And part of that, our hypothesiswas and still is that having
technology, having visibility and chain of custody data and
tools to not only identify that material quickly connect it to
(03:48):
the supply chain, to sawmills, to manufacturers and then enable
that view and that data to be accessible by customers was a
fee linking component to make this material more accessible.
Amazing. As soon as you mentioned supply
chain, there's a lot to deal just just in that pocket of what
you what you've been talking about.
But kind of jumping to the one of the first things you talked
(04:11):
about is you thinking of, you know, there's a lot of solutions
out there and that one of the things that I lived by basically
is I'm convinced 100% we have all the solutions, We just have
not put them in the right spot necessarily.
It's one of those I've worked inall kinds of industries and it's
always fascinating to see when you step into a new industry and
(04:34):
realize, oh, they've actually solved something.
If you could just take that and move it over here, this other
industry, it would it would blowtheir minds and solve so many
problems. And so I love that idea,
everybody. Hey, let's actually look at look
at all those things. And then, yeah, re reconnect the
dots in a different, different way.
So love that love that kind of thinking process that creates
(04:58):
these kind of solutions. So let's get into what exactly
material like we talked about what you're talking about, like
waste what and I've a lot of people, there's everything from
what you were talking about, even people who've spoken about
fact that like when a city trimstheir trees, there can sometimes
you know, a tree falls down, right, it gets just thrown away
(05:21):
or burnt at best, no bet. Maybe it's just most likely just
put in with all the other yard debris and nobody gets anything
out of it. There's no benefit.
What are you creating with? So you have all this very
different material which up until now most people go, well,
(05:42):
that's cool, that's not valuable.
What are you? What have you been able to do
with that? To be able to turn that on its
head and go, no, it's actually, it's actually worth something,
you should, you should use it. Yeah, we have the way we talk
about our business because it does span the entire supply
chain. So it is there a lot of moving
(06:03):
parts. The way we break it down is by
the products and the services that we offer.
Some of those physical, some of those are digital.
So on the physical product side,we really have 3 core product
avenues. 1 is structural applications for mass timber.
So the leading product there is cross laminated timber.
(06:24):
Obviously for low, medium, high rise buildings instead of using
entirely or maybe in some capacity steel and concrete, we
can use lumber as growing as a country.
Manufacturing is growing in lotsof ways and we just our real
opportunity to integrate salvagematerial into that supply chain
(06:45):
because on using per board basis, the actual grade or
character is less important whenthese panels are pressed and
combined together. So that's one product we're
really excited about and bringing that to market in
bigger ways. The next one is millwork, non
structural components, so interior flooring, accent walls,
ceilings and then exterior decking, fencing side and you
(07:08):
have a handful of products and species there and then lumber
for furniture companies. So you want to invest in a local
or more sustainable material. You want to have local
manufacturing. We can help connect that into
the supply chain according to your existing supply chain
there. So those are our physical
products and again, we work across from sawmills to wood,
(07:33):
you know secondary processors tothat manufacturer or end
customer or brand company to make that possible.
And then part of making that possible is then we go to the
digital offerings that we have. So across that supply chain, if
you think of it in three stages,getting fallen fiber or wasted
(07:53):
material in. So in log form traditionally
getting that two sawmills, that's stage 1.
Stage 2 is then turning that loginto lumber and to a usable sort
of raw material. That's stage 2.
And then stage 3 is turning intoa final product and getting it
to a customer. So we have a handful of digital
tools that plug in at each stagethere.
(08:14):
So on that front end, we basically, we call it informally
an Uber for logs. So we connect tree service
companies and arborists to sawmills.
So if you are an arborist, you connect a lot logs throughout
your, you know, weekly or monthly jobs to fill the truck,
you can post that to our platform and then we work with
(08:36):
local sandals so they can claim that load and then we coordinate
logistics and transport. So right now we're not a active
in the Northeast in the Mid-Atlantic.
We're starting in the the Southeast to deploy that and
then eventually we'll scale intoyou know the other wood baskets
of the country through upper Midwest, Pacific Northwest
etcetera. And then we have internal tools
(08:59):
for tracking material. So from chain of custody
perspective, from sawmills to wood products companies to end
use, we want to be able to show where that material came from,
who touched it and the associated carbon and impact
metrics associated. With that show people, yeah, it
is really the same would be collected.
There's no if there's no bait and switch.
(09:20):
We didn't burn it anyway. Exactly.
New lumber? Yep.
And part of that too is, you know, with an eye towards
adoption in a bigger way. We are working with large
industrial sawmills who accessing salvage material, but
because the market is relativelynew and growing, you know,
(09:40):
they're not spending time and energy to separate that fiber
out. So you might get, say.
Oh, right. You know 100 logs that go into
the system that are from a salvage source, but they just
get mixed in with the thousand other logs that they would be
getting from their traditional. Sources.
So they haven't been. They just look at it and go can
we use it? Yes, no.
OK. And rather than saying 01
(10:03):
percent is from this, there's notracking of that.
Yet, and so that's where we wantto not only promote that.
So if you're, you know, a company and you have specific
grade expectations or, or something like that, we can
offer a, a blended offering. Basically, we know that, you
know, this batch of wood you're getting is going to be 20%
(10:24):
salvage material because of the sawmill that we work with and we
have that that tracking or we can do the 1 to 1, you know, say
this exact board is what you're getting.
Obviously those are different price points and different, you
know, levels of engagement in that supply chain that's
required, but with an eye towards adoption with these
bigger mill and bigger clients. Trying to get this to your
(10:45):
approach so you can start say it's a 20% then very similar to
FSC or other recycled products. OK, what do we need to do to get
to 506070? Right.
Percentage, you know of, of salvage material.
So there's a few avenues there that we are both in combining
our physical products with our digital products to enable more
(11:05):
access both on the supply side with sawmills and then obviously
the demand side and customers. So that's a little bit of an
overview of how do we think about getting more material and
then pulling more material out. Hey, it's your host.
Ian, I'm really glad you're enjoying this episode.
I absolutely love highlighting amazing brands and founders for
the awesome things they are doing.
(11:27):
I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and businesses
like yours turn their boldest ideas into powerful, purpose
driven brands. So if you're serious about.
Building a brand people love, like our guests and clients too,
and one that you're proud to stand behind.
I invite you to dive a bit deeper with our book Conscious
Design. Inside you'll discover the exact
framework and steps we use to help entrepreneurs like you turn
(11:49):
purpose into a powerful, impact driven brand.
Brand that stands out, tracks loyal customers and drive
sustainable growth with social and environmental responsibility
woven into its DNA. Grab your copy today you.
Can find it on our website consciousdesignhouse.com or just
find the link below in the show notes.
Enjoy the rest of the episode and don't forget to like,
(12:10):
subscribe and share. Got it.
And then as a company, right, ifyou're at the the consumer
level, then you have, if you're,if you're doing the tracking
right, you can say with certainty, Hey, customer, this
(12:31):
chair is made out of either a percentage.
We could, you could be somethinglike that where it's a, it's 80%
recycled, recovered, however they want to term it, or they
could even even opt for 100% or whatever that blend is.
But then that's something that you can out of the brand be able
to share ultimately, because andthe end customer is the one one
(12:53):
that everyone's got to got to show something to for it all be
worth it. But you can actually, you're
actually able to do that then ifyou using your guys's
technology. Correct.
I'm curious how has the role obvious you're growing?
How's the role of been of being Uber for locks?
I guess the very interesting andI know there's a lot of
(13:13):
innovation on like the truck trucking industry in general.
Just material transportation is kind of keeps getting turned on
his head. I feel like there's a lot of
wasted things. So how I guess what have you
been seeing as you've been goingthrough and how's that, how's
that gone in terms of getting people on board of think, even
(13:35):
thinking about things that way? Because it's it's a totally
different process than just throw it back of your your truck
and then dump it off at the the yard with its location.
Yeah, we look at it through a. Few.
Different lenses that this is first a group or a few different
groups that have not had technology built for them.
(13:56):
So arborist go throughout their their normal day and they
typically get logs from those you know from their from their
jobs. And yes, likely the easiest
solution is to cut it off into small chunks and chip it or take
it to a landfill, right? There on site.
Right. You got to empty the load and
get to the next job. If they're lucky, you know, if
(14:17):
they're having a truck or a loader that can actually support
logs, they might call someone, they might have a guy or a
connection who no they'll come by and you know, give them 1000
bucks for the logs or something like that.
But yeah, like maybe a firewood scenario for sale like that's,
that's one of the few things I could think of You could.
Frank. Value enough.
(14:38):
Right. And part of that is inconsistent
in the demand. You don't know if someone's
going to want it or not. And also lack of transparency
and what you're actually valuingthe material as.
Maybe if one month you get $1000, next month you get 1600
or something like that. But it's there's no transparency
in what you're getting. And so the main service offering
for them is we can give you a consistent and transparent
(15:02):
revenue line for what you originally thought of as a
liability and a waste from theseprojects and make it really easy
for you to, you know, take a picture, prep the logs and get
someone to come in and pick it up.
So that's really that the main value proposition to these
arborists is providing them another revenue stream to their
(15:24):
business and making it easy to move that material, right?
Making it actually worth not chipping it.
Basically, you have to be more worthwhile than renting A
chipper for four hours, Yeah, and chipping it.
Right. And and if there's, you know
what we're starting to do some customer research on, you know,
homeowner had to choose between an arborist that took part in
(15:47):
this type of system versus one that didn't.
I don't know. We don't have any hard data on
this, but I would assume that a lot of homeowners would prefer
that the arborist that contributes to this type of
salvaging. Now it becomes a marketing tool
for the arborist to say, hey, wedon't just burn everything that
we get from here. We we actually can go be useful.
(16:07):
Right. And then to the next stage or
I'll jump over the truckers for now, I'll come back.
But then to the sawmill. And you know the very basic
value proposition is we can get you more material and obviously
we have standardized grades and it's very transparent and easy
to coordinate and grade. You claim a log or a load and
(16:30):
it's not graded properly or you actually get a bunch of, you
know, subpar logs that you can'tactually use.
You can grade that give that feedback to the arborist and
that's, you know, similar to your, you know, a rating system.
You can realize I was like I'm two star load and you obviously.
Are you able to tell, 'cause I wouldn't, at least most
(16:51):
arborists that I know, they're not necessarily grading right?
They're just, they're going, hey, here's a tree, chopped it
down, now we're done. Like grade.
Whereas like what you're talkingabout the mill, lumber mill,
they grade, they're like, Oh yeah, here's here's the grade.
We know exactly what it is. We know based based on all that.
(17:12):
So are you, you're helping to connect those two dots and
facilitate that kind of grading system?
Yeah. And it's kind of, you know,
imagining, but there's obviouslythere's always so much you can
know by just looking at the, youknow, the butt end of a log.
Once you open it up, you see allthat whatever's inside.
And so our goal is to make sure the arborist knows the checklist
(17:35):
of things that they can do to ensure that they get the highest
of value for their logs, which is really, is it straight or is
it current? Is it the sort of visual
indicators should translate to ahigher price per log there and
we have a whole sort of log prepvideo course that arborists can
(17:55):
take, so you know. How to?
Organize them, how to prep them,how to cut them so that it's
really easy for a trucker to come and load them and go.
And those are all parts of the, you know, process that an
arborist gets could get dinged on or or you know, graded on
through the process. And then the SAML obviously once
they open it up and they can actually they get summarize
(18:18):
reports all that load. So we can say of the logs of the
species, here's actually what wegot from that and we can then
cross reference, OK, this is what we thought, this is what we
got, was it accurate, was it offwhat we miss that kind of thing.
And so that's where we're getting a lot of data to be able
to hopefully make those as closeas possible.
(18:39):
Right, eliminate some of the potential errors.
Exactly. And then the last piece,
obviously, as you mentioned, there's a lot of variability
across trucking, across regions,across types of things, a types
of goods that are being transported.
And what we really want to do isbuild relationships with these
small independent trucking companies to just give them
(19:02):
another source to be able to transport loads.
We actually work with a lot of groups that use us on their back
halls. So they have a shipment, Oh
yeah, going in One Direction, and then their truckers can just
check our platform on their way back to see if they could pick
up a load, right. Eliminating some of those empty.
Yeah, there's some crazy, I forgot the percentages act act
(19:25):
exactly, but I know it's a there's a crazy amount of empty
load. Just drives where it's just I
need the truck here. I got to get it there.
Whether something's in it or not, I still need the truck and
the bed over there. Yep.
So then transport something. So that's great.
So you're able to actually be some of these companies are
actually able to tap into the yours of these additional.
(19:48):
Maybe we can fill up some of those empty and make it not a
well wasted waste. Not really.
Wait, an inefficient trip. We'll call it that.
Exactly, exactly. And that's where, you know,
right when you look at this partof the supply chain, you have
these three players, the arborist or the folks, you know,
salvaging the material. The sawmills who want it and
(20:09):
then the truckers who are getting it from point A to point
B. When we think about zooming out,
how do we actually make change in the supply chain?
Looking and having the demand coal helps this whole system go.
So from the very early on, earlyon, I can be advisors, friends,
mentors cautioned us that we were doing too much.
(20:31):
We were trying to approach, you know, too much of the supply
chain and there's there's wisdomin that, of course.
But now we're at a point where because we do work across the
supply chain, because we can speak the language of all these
different players, because we can play with all these leverage
points, supply input, processingand then demand can actually get
(20:54):
more adoption of our technology,but also of the material itself,
which is exciting to see start to actually be a real benefit to
us. Right, I wanted to ask you about
you said arborist and other, butyou've you've also mentioned,
you know, forest fire prevention.
There's also just after after forest fire clean up.
There's so many different ways kind of what areas have you
(21:18):
found are the most? I'd imagine there are certain
scenarios where maybe the material isn't good enough to be
used. So how I guess what are the
areas that you're seeing that are really good that have been
working for you to actually get quality enough to actually be
worthwhile? And are there any that you've
tried and then maybe they just not not worked out as areas that
(21:43):
you can't expand it too? Sure.
And do you mean areas in, you know, product or end uses or
like geographic regions or actual species?
Like products like Yeah, I'm imagining you.
Could probably operate most. Of the US, at least.
Yeah. So and no, we're, we are doing
that actively and across hardwoods and softwoods there.
(22:06):
So on the product side, we thinkof it, you know where we are now
in terms of mass timber millworkand furniture.
You really asked over the last 4-4 or five years of
understanding what the market needs are and what people want
versus what's actually possible with salvage material, the
quality, the consistency, etcetera.
(22:27):
We feel really good about these three offerings in terms of, you
know, in many ways, we have the skews mapped out, we have our,
for the millwork side of things.We have our profiles, we have
our dimensions. We don't feel like we need to
expand anymore. You know, we've kind of gotten
the subset of species that are available and now and, and, you
know, matching out the demand and what we think will continue
(22:50):
to grow. And so now it's just continuing
to build the supply chain for scale, integrating technology to
make it more seamless and reallypushing forward across those.
And just as a a tangible example, like 1 product,
particularly for outdoor applications is thermal modified
red oak. You know, Mid-Atlantic and lots
(23:11):
of parts of the US, we have a lot of red oak, but it's not
really in design, you know, highdesign these days people don't
go to rust. It had a Tay day, but now it's
really being chipped and wasted or just uses pallets.
A lot of pallet manufacturers utilize red oak because it's
available there. Nobody else wants it.
So exactly exactly so through a process called thermal
(23:36):
modification, which is just a natural high heat drying
process, we can turn red oak into that normally does not do
well outside into a rot and weather resistant product that
is price competitive and performance competitive with
(23:57):
your, you know tropical hardwoods, your plastic
composites and certainly your. Without doing a chemical, so I
know one of the one of the favourites is just chemical
treat the lumber and that's whatright one way to make anything
resistant, right? Yeah, we had that thought.
No, that's we don't want to go down that path.
But no, just so thermal modification, it's not a new
(24:18):
technology or innovation. It was originated in Northern
Europe almost 2 decades ago, buthas just started to come into
the US for the mainstream manufacturing sort of
infrastructure. But it is a high feet, low
oxygen, no oxygen kiln that. OK.
Basically you bake the material,so you are baking off the
(24:39):
starches and the sugars that bacteria, fungi, bugs would.
All the traditionally. Eat exactly right and then
you're actually closing the pores to make material more
hydrophobic and water. Resistant.
And so we're really excited about, you know, thermally
mocite, red oak. Similarly, we're working doing
some tests for thermal Poplar and other offerings.
(25:02):
You you're at least testing, butyou think you can use it on
multiple species of what? It's not limited to just red.
Yep. OK.
Thermal red, we have thermal pine.
We're starting to do thermal toppler and get that out more
and more thermally modified. Soft Maple is actually an
interesting option because it it's, it's something about Maple
(25:24):
that doesn't make it usable outside.
OK, but you get this really rich, almost walnut looking
interior offering. Interesting.
So it changes kind of imagine ifyou're baking it, it's going to
have some physical look changes.Is that or does it retain?
(25:44):
Does it still like when you put the red oak through, does it
still basically look like red oak or is it does it the
cosmetic change too? Is it something like from an
architectural interior design standpoint, it could be an
interesting material because it's there is no other way to
get that. You're right, it is also a
(26:04):
cosmetic change as well. So like I mentioned, traditional
red oak, if not really in designtrends anymore, lead to red.
So after thermal modification, thermal red oak becomes this
beautiful chocolate brown. Color.
Oh wow. OK.
And obviously if you wanted to put an additional sealant or
finish on it, it sort of retainsthat color a little bit longer,
(26:27):
but then it was. Is it still stainable?
Like is it it takes stain and things like that as easily?
Did You Know? Yeah, it would do a finish, you
know, just UV protectant or something like that.
We have seen we do have some options that add some color
tones to it. You could go lighter, you can go
a little bit darker, but traditionally folks just want
like the wood, cut the wood and they also it'll Gray out in
(26:50):
patina similar to other outdoor wood products over time.
And so adding a layer finish canjust help preserve that color if
that's what you want as well. And so similarly, pine, Poplar,
soft Maple, there's a cosmetic change that happens that it's
usually a darkening of that species.
Interesting. Usually I mean there's dry.
(27:13):
People have been drying lumber for a long time, but not really
high heat. So I guess that's the innovation
is using a temperature where it doesn't self combust, but it is
still a lot higher than what youthink of as like drying in a
lumber yard or something that before or after processing,
right. It's something it's a different
temperature than that. Interesting.
(27:35):
Well, that's exciting to see because there's obviously
there's a push. People want more natural, but
then they also want it to survive outside.
Yep, which puts chemical treatedat a odds, but limiting,
limiting options. So that's very cool to hear that
you guys have this. This is starting to come around
(27:56):
and you're able to use it on multiple multiple species.
And just last, last point to addon that, I think one of our what
we see, one of our big goals or responsibilities in this space
is to educate and provide a lookinto how the sausage is made, so
to speak. So and in particularly with
(28:17):
current offerings, whether pressure treated or chemically
treated material or even tropical hardwood, we are a
common question we get is OK, great.
How does this compare to eBay asan example?
We can't argue that eBay is one of the best, strongest, cuffest,
most, you know, long lasting natural wood materials out
(28:39):
there. It's grown in the rainforest.
It's made to be in harsh environments with lots of it
lives. There it just.
Lives there. You can't argue with that and
it's important to understand theprocess it is required to turn
to make your you know 100 squarefoot you paid that or your
boardwalk made out of eBay and the.
That's not cutting pine. Exactly, and that's it's not
(29:01):
only that you know the land, actual like number of trees,
actual acres of material that isrequired for that, but then
obviously the shipping and all the pieces that to get that to
where you are. And I think it's so our
perspective is, you know, we can't convince you to, you know,
we can't make you make a decision one way or another, but
we want you to have all the information of the impact of
(29:23):
that product decision. We'll do.
If you can actually make a comparison, then you can have, I
think it's that informed decision where is if you just
look, if all you know is that, then you go, OK, well, yeah, of
course it's going to do great. I'll put it outside, it'll be
fine, right and not. But if you don't have that
comparison or if you're going well, it's either that or
(29:43):
pressure washed, which that doesn't look good or chemical
that that's not like your options.
Are those the only things that come to mind?
Then if you have the money for it, you're just going to you're
just going to pick that because there's no other options.
So definitely the education. I feel like those people know
more than it's, Oh, there is, there is actually another option
(30:07):
that isn't this ugly stuff that nobody wants or super expensive.
Amazing. I'm curious as far as the
material that you're able to intake, right.
You obviously have to grade. You can't just you know, I can't
handle you a stick from the fromthe ground.
It's like this thick. It's not going to be what you're
looking for. So kind of what is the range of
(30:28):
raw material input that you can actually use?
Obviously doesn't have to be a giant oak tree, but what kind of
parameters have you found actually gets you that raw
material that you can, that a lumber mill will actually buy
that you can actually use? What does that?
What does that look like? Very technically with the the
(30:49):
Uber for Lungs platform, which is called Mill market
recommended that earlier, there's very clear size
constraints or very minimums that we have to get.
So it's really you're looking at16 to 18 inches minimum DBH
diameter breast height to make that worth anyone's while on the
Somnol side of things. And then you need at least 8
(31:13):
feet 6 inches long from. And if you look at a true
standing, you can kind of imagine from the the stump or
where you would cut the stump, which is as close to the ground
as possible due to just beneath first branch.
When branches start to come in, that's where you see nodding and
just variation in material. That quality?
(31:34):
Quality for use, Yeah, knots arenot fun.
Right. And so that's, that's the basic,
you know, size parameters from aintake perspective.
And then obviously you know thatwhen you're thinking, when we're
thinking about biomass and the whole tree mentality is
obviously the trunk is just one part.
You have the crown, you have thebranches, you have all this
(31:55):
other. And so a lot of our focus is on
the log because that has the potential to be the highest in
value recycled or salvage part of it.
We're starting to do more work on the biomass by the things.
OK, so where, what, what can we do with all that, the branch and
the leaves that you know that everything else that we have
(32:17):
obviously so much more volume upcompared to the log that comes
from a single tree. So we're working on that.
And then you asked earlier aboutthe product rings or the array
of products and we really think that across mass timber, you
know work furniture within that we can span a pretty big array
of grades to meet those product expectations and those we try to
(32:40):
map those as much to existing grading certifications as
possible. So what if it's hardwood working
with the NHLA, the National Hardwood Lumber Association, or
on the softwoods, the National Softwood Association board to
see, OK, what are we talking about and how does that map to
on the hardwood side, you know, your FAS and select grades to #1
(33:04):
common to #2 common and pretty much we can match a lot of
material to that. And then obviously that helps
with right sizing pricing with right sizing volume and
expectations across the board. So really what we're trying to
do, we're not trying to do like reinvent the wheel here.
A lot of this has been figured out.
So it's more of a mapping exercise.
(33:26):
Right you're you're going here'sthe wheel.
How do we how do we line it up so that we're not doing playing
over here where nobody actually has a supply.
You're really just going OK, well what can we get that
somebody's was going to throw away and then where does it
where can they plug in What are the channels of this company
wants grades X through Y cool. Let the make sure they're those
(33:51):
are getting in in a truck and going to them.
And then how do you just again connecting the dots but not
reinventing the dots? Right, one that's you said
exactly. It's going back to the the point
I made at the, you know, at the beginning is just putting in the
effort that has not been done tomap this sort of underutilized
(34:11):
undressed material to the existing system and make that as
easy as possible. And so that's really how we
think about, you know, whether it's grading material input,
just getting to the system and then work with big groups like
FSC, SFI who are setting certifications and the standards
for sustainable forest management and things like that.
(34:32):
Salvage material is a very new concept in relation to those
grades. And so working with them again,
we don't want to be a new certification body.
That's it's a whole kind of that's.
A whole other layer about everything.
We just want to make sure that our the data that we're
collecting across the supply chain, the standards we're
(34:53):
setting with arborist sawmills, etcetera, can map to these
existing systems. Right.
A is a, not something else. Still, if you need a, you get A
and that's, you know, confusion.Amazing.
I love that. I think it's, I think it's
really important. People come up with a lot of
(35:13):
innovation and anytime you can do something where you don't
have to have this massive leap and behavior of everyone, that's
where you get the fastest and the most highest acceptance
rate. So it's, I love what you guys
are doing and thinking about this so that, hey, how do we
make it? Arborist or whoever, whoever's
(35:35):
chopping the tree down, how to make it easy for them to go,
yeah, this is good. Here you go.
Here's the logs. Take it away, connecting
everything so that you're not noone per like everyone's changing
their behavior a little bit, which effectively you're making
a pretty big change when you stack up all their behavior
changes together, but you're notloading one person up and going
(35:59):
all right, you have to change. You have to do a 180 here and
then nobody else doesn't does anything else.
You you're taking it all on yourself.
You're letting it be this spreadout increment.
See, it feels like incremental but adds up.
I feel like it has up pretty quickly by the time you're done
the system. So I know system changing whole
(36:19):
system is big and challenging asall your your advisors have
talked about. But I really when you can
execute it well, it's actually less pressure.
I feel like there's a lot of less pressure that happens when
you do it that way, even though it's it is big and scary when
you. It's different.
That's where we see, you know, to your point of what we have
(36:42):
the solution. I think that's where when those
things start to come together, that's when we see the real
impact across the system. Right, right.
Well, I love it and this has been this has been a pleasure.
I love talking about what you guys are doing.
Before we wrap up, I wanted to make sure I know you shared the
app name, but if there's any other things that people should
(37:03):
be aware of. And then also, what's the best
way to reach out to you, connectwith you If municipalities, I've
talked to some people about, youknow, the city, the city has
their own contractor that take out trees and redo like that's a
whole supply chain for you guys.Anybody like how?
What's the best way to reach outto you guys, connect,
(37:25):
potentially partner? Yeah, I would say the fail safe
can be in partof.com. We have a contact form.
Shoot us a note there. Let us know who you are and what
you're interested in. That's the easy one, but
breaking it down a little bit because we do have a lot going
on. If you are.
On the salvage side, so arboristtree service company, trucker
(37:46):
mill market is is where to go. So just mill market.net, there's
contact forms and you'll be directed to to the right folks
there. If you are in the wood products
world, in the manufacturing side, whether it's a sawmill or
a wood products company or on the demand side of architect
designer, you know, using wood in some way and want to learn
(38:08):
more, head over to carbonsmartwood.com that gives
an overview of our materials, our offerings, and obviously
there's a contact form as well. You can reach me.
My e-mail is just Theo TNGO at cambiumcarbon.com.
Happy to chat and yeah, we look forward to hearing from.
Anyone amazing? Well, thank you so much for
taking your time to talk and looking forward to see what else
(38:30):
you guys do and the impact you can make.
Amazing. Thanks so much for having me.
It's a pleasure. And that wraps up another
episode of The Conscious Design.Podcast if today's episode.
Inspired you to bring your. Product idea to life and turn it
into a sustainable 7 figure business.
Visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below.
Your ideas have the power to change the world and we're here
(38:52):
to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and
I'll see you on the next episode.
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