196: Offshore Wind and Marine Mammals with Stephen Comerford

Are offshore wind farms detrimental to marine mammals? What happens when we industrialise our seas with massive turbines? Can we balance the urgent need for renewable energy with protecting marine life? These questions take centre stage in our conversation with marine ecologist Dr Stephen Comerford, who is the ORE Marine Biodiversity Officer at the Irish Whale and Dolphin Group. Stephen has years of experience working with both the oil and gas industry and offshore renewables, which makes him the perfect guest to discuss this important topic.

In this episode, we discuss the critical issue of underwater noise during wind farm construction. Stephen explains how pile driving - the process of hammering massive steel tubes into the seabed - creates intense underwater noise that can harm marine mammals. However, there's hope in the form of various noise reduction technologies, from bubble curtains to innovative pile installation methods, though implementing these solutions comes with significant costs and technical challenges.

Looking to the future, Stephen shares his perspective on how offshore structures might create novel marine ecosystems and discusses the crucial role of citizen science in monitoring marine mammals. While acknowledging the environmental pressures our seas face, he highlights how Ireland's new focus on marine planning and management, driven by offshore wind development, could lead to better protection of our oceans. The episode offers a balanced view of how we can pursue essential renewable energy goals while safeguarding marine life.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This is Conservation and Science podcast, where we take a deep diveinto topics of ecology, conservation and human wildlife interactions.
I'm Tommy Serafinski, and I always strive to bring you diverseperspectives on every environmental story that I cover.
And what that means is that sometimes I talk with peoplewho might be on the opposing ends of environmental debate.

(00:21):
And the reason I'm doing this is because we need more dialogand understanding and less division and fighting,
not only in environmental stories, but in life in general.
But, in this podcast,we're really concerned with environmental stories.
So in other words, I try to make you to listen to peopleyou might have not listened to otherwise.

(00:44):
And today we are taking on the topic of offshorewind or offshore wind farms.
And this topic, like a lot of, environmental topics, has, well, divides opinions.
Some people say this is the best thing ever.
We need wind farms in a transition to help us, in the transition,from fossil fuels to renewable energy.

(01:08):
And what the better place than the open ocean?
We have, a lot of wind there.
That wind blows unobstructed by landscape featuresand by some buildings, maybe.
And also, look at all that space.
We can spare land for agriculture or for wildlife.

(01:29):
So this is the best thing.
But on the other hand, people who are opposing,
those wind farms, offshore wind farms are saying, well,we shouldn't really be industrializing seas.
And the arguments revolve mainly about the unknown impactson the wildlife, on the marine wildlife.
Once those wind farms operate, but also on much better known impactson the marine wildlife, cetacean, specifically marine mammals,

(01:58):
while those, constructions are being built, being the pylonsbeing hammered, there's like a massive noise pollution that can,
well, injured or killed sometimes,cetaceans, dull dolphins and whales and porpoises and so on.
So today, we are taking head on on this topic,and our guest is marine biologist Doctor Stephen Comerford,

(02:23):
who is already a marine biodiversity officerat the Irish Whales and Dolphins group.
And Stephen worked, with oil and gas industryas well as offshore renewables
as a person who was responsible for mitigating, the negative impacts.
He has a vast experience and now works with charityIrish Whales and Dolphin Group, overseeing,

(02:50):
development of those thingsand being responsible for the policy around offshore renewables.
So he's seen the good, the bad, the ugly.
And I'm going to dive today with Stephen. We're into the good,the bad, the ugly.
So at the end of this episode, you will have a better understand

(03:10):
of what is really going on, what are the mitigations that are possibleor whether it is going to happen or not.
And a lot of other information is around the developmentof those offshore wind farms around Ireland specifically.
So at least you will be better informed of what's going on,and you will hear that information based on
what is actually happening,not based on who screams the loudest on social media.

(03:35):
So I hope that if you're interested in offshore renewables, ormaybe you're concerned about development of offshore renewables, after
listening to this episode, you will have better views and that episodewill help you to, well, basically refine your views on this topic.

(03:55):
That's it for this introduction.
So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Stephen Comerford. Stephen,welcome to the show.
Thank you very much to me. It's a pleasure to have you.
And this is the second time someone from Irish, Wes in DolphinGroup is on the podcast.
So I am delighted due to have you on.
Very good.
Yeah, we met at the, All Ireland Marine, Doyle Ireland Mammal Conference to do some Galway.

(04:21):
Yes, exactly, exactly. And mammal includes marine mammal.
That's why that's why we're here today.
So I just want to start with, you know, a little bit of a,of a, of a background Europe where you would be
whale watching you observing whales of the Irish gullsfor many, many years.
What was your most memorable encounter? Memorable encounter?

(04:43):
Yeah, I
was there was one stand out, encounter.
We were out on the Celtic mist.More than I think is more than ten years ago.
There were there were a bunch of usthere, colleagues and friends and, some international students.
And we were out on the shelf edge on the porcupine Bank.

(05:04):
So we were some distance off shore.
And, it was the middle of the day.
We had a hugely successful trip so far with saw so many species,and we were relax, knocked out.
The boat was drifting and there were fin willows all around us.
And we were enjoying that and watching the whalesand or dolphins everywhere.

(05:26):
And next thing very big blows.
And fin whales have very big blows. The,the second biggest mammal, second biggest whale.
And so they are very big animals.
And we were thinking, wouldn't it be great if we saw a blue whale?
And then this, this whale came alongside the boatand it was a slightly different color.
We all got and then big blow and then it's float and it showed its tail.

(05:52):
And fin whales don't do that, but blue whales do.So positive identification.
Two blue whales.We were absolutely blown away. I'd never seen one before.
I haven't seen one since.
Rare encounters in Irish waters because they're very far off shore.
And also,it's easy to mix them up with fin whales or whales for that matter.
So if you're just looking at blows, there's no way you could say,oh, that was a blooper.

(06:16):
But the boat, the way it was right alongside the boat,we saw the fluke, we saw the color, we saw a second one.
And then to add to us even more, an aircraft aircraft flew over usand it was the Air Corps on, on fisheries patrol.
And they called us up on the radio and,they said, you know, who are you?
What are you up to kind of thing.

(06:37):
And, so we had a chat and I said,there are two blue whales in front of the boat.
And they said, oh, great, we'll try and get photos.
And they got an absolutely classic photographof two blue whales, in line, one behind the other from the aircraft.
Beautiful photograph. And they also got really good photographof the Celtic mates and the skipper.

(07:01):
And, McAllister was up on the top of the mast at the time splashing.And it was, it was just fabulous.
It was perhaps the best trip ever.
The of the sun tastic. Fantastic.
Yes. The, I'm the you know, definitely
that something that anyone remembers because those rare encounters is or something that tends to stick in our memory.

(07:22):
Listen, Steven, we we going to talk about, serious stuff, though.
It's all nice.But we going to talk about the offshore renewable energy.
And, you know,you have an experience worldwide working, with the industry.
And tell me whether any surprising way or ways,that you learn about marine

(07:43):
mammals, how they're interact with these, offshore, offshore renewable infrastructure.
Well, you know, that's very much part of of what do I do in fact, my
my role is now specifically to deal with the interactionbetween whales and dolphins and offshore renewables.
So, yeah, there are many ways in which renewables, offshore renewables,wind farms can interact with, with whales

(08:09):
and dolphins, some of them negative, some of them neutral,perhaps some of them positive to the biggest issue for us.
And the the biggest issue for everyone is underwater noise.
And as you're probably aware,whales, dolphins, porpoises are extremely sensitive to noise.
And underwater noise travels very far, propagatesin a completely different way to the way it does in air.

(08:33):
So a lot of the sort of characteristics of noisethat we understand as humans, we,
we, we're that doesn't representwhat goes on water and whales and dolphins are, are acoustic animals.
They live in an acoustic world. They live in a dark world.
You know, a lot of the information they get is true, is true sound.
So it's very important.

(08:55):
It is as important, perhaps as sizes to us to.
It's a very crude analogy, but,
you know, they get a great deal of the information they need,you know, to communicate and to haunt and to forage.
And, and so, you know, it's it's very important.
It's it's central to their very, their very existence.
And when the construction of wind farms can be done in a number of ways,but the most usual way to do is

(09:21):
and the way that it is proposed to the first trancheof of wind farms in Irish waters is with piling.
So piling is is where you get a steel pile,which is essentially just a steel tube
and you knock us into the ground with a hammer, like a nail.
It's a it's a simple a very understandable analogy, perhaps,but these these bubbles are absolutely huge.

(09:44):
And they're proposing piles now that are ten meters diameter.You know, they're massive.
So what happens is, is the pile is placed on the seabedby a piling vessel, which it's a heavy lift vessel.
And then they they drop a big hydraulic hammer onto the top of the pile.
And then they knock us in with this high hydraulic hammer.

(10:06):
So it's incredibly noisy.
The the motor is inside of just huge areas of, of the sea.
And that is, that's, you know, that's the British point for us.
That's the really that's the dangerous part.
And if you think of the of the rollout of offshore renewables in Ireland
specifically the first phase, what what are known as the phaseone projects, there are six of them, five in the Irish Sea.

(10:32):
One of the
catamarans go to that really isn't so much concernedbecause they intend to gravity foundations.
So there's no piling associated with that.
So they have a whole new different set of problemsfor themselves and technical challenges.
But underwater noise isn't going to be as big an issue.
So if we sort of narrowor focus down onto the five projects in the Irish Sea,

(10:54):
four of them have, sent in their planning applicationsto onboard Prunella.
And as part of those planning applications, they submit environmentalimpact assessment reports, which are these absolutely mammoth documents
that there's attempt to capture all elements of the marine environmentand birds and, you know, the landfall, the interior,

(11:17):
all of the interactions, and also some of the social interactionsas well as with transport as well.
But it's an it's an environmental assessment.
So from, from these, you know, we learned that there are going to bex number of piles and x number of are they these are proposed jobs.
So these are, these are applications they propose,you know, say for argument's say 50 on average, 50, turbines per sites.

(11:47):
And that's five sites, you know, 250 turbines of thesethese are very rough numbers.
And there are a lot of there are a lot of subtleties to that.
But for the sake of the sake of outlining us, so each piling events can go on for hours.
And each planning event has the ability to an absolute worst casescenario, actually injure whales and off some porpoises.

(12:14):
You know, the can cause, cause can cause acoustic trauma.That's a very short ranges.
And, you know, there's there's no need to overstate that, I think.
But but more importantly, the the area of disturbance is huge.
And with a more recent focus on porpoises, recently, the observed I'mgoing off on tangent there, but the, the observe reports has just been

(12:39):
published, digital aerial surveys around Irish waters recentlypublished and it's it paints a pretty grim picture for porpoises.
Compared with the last observed reports,
that they looked to be, essentially gone from the captaincyand what would have been a very healthy population

(13:00):
of porpoises in the IrishSea has reduced to quite a concentrated small population in the North.
So the indications are bad for porpoises and I think to circle backthey are particularly vulnerable to underwater noise.
And they're also particularly vulnerable to displacement becauseporpoises, as you may know, that they're the smallest by cetaceans.

(13:22):
They're very small and like all small organisms,they need to feed constantly.
The analogy is that they are the marine equivalent of a of a shrew.
So, you know, they need to feed all the time.
So they're they're cryptic animals. They, they're,they have of high fidelity.
So, you know, a porpoise has its patch or its group of vocalizeshave their patch, they feed they're, they're they're, very secure.

(13:48):
They're and if they're, if they're displaced from that,
there are effects that there are effectsperhaps that we up to now have underestimated.
And that it's not a question of, well,if they, you know, if two noise a year that they can go there.
It's not as simple as that.
And you know, these, these decline in porpoise numbersand it's reflected in more than just the observed reports as well.

(14:12):
But you know, reports on the seas, the rock able to talk, as they say,
for instance, in the Irish Sea, as showed, the surveying by 12 has shown a decrease in Falklands numbers.
A figure on the quarter is not just an Irish Sea problem.
I live in. I live in West Kerry,so I actually overlooked the blasted sound.
The blanket islands are there.There's it's designations in SSA for harbor, for places.

(14:36):
And I haven't seen a porpoise for years,you know? So something's happening.
They're under pressure. So?
So our concern is the piling in the Irish Sea.
It's a very specific concern,but fortunately, it's a problem that can be solved.
The technology exists to greatly reduce the amount of noisethat goes out into the into the water column from a piling

(15:00):
that we can use, devices, bubble curtains or oneand it's a very it's a very it's a very simple device to understand.
It's a, it's a, it's a tube laid on the seabed and the tube goes upto, a vessel that has a compressor or multiple compressors on board,
and it pumps high pressure air into this tube.

(15:21):
And the tube is full of holes and bubbles rise up.
And the bubbles had this almost magical propertyof preventing the sound from propagating out from the piling of it.
Happy days.
So you can push a bubble curtain around the pile.
It will greatly reduce the motor sound that goes out of the environment.

(15:41):
If you put another one outside that again,you further reduce, you know, it's this is proven technology.
They use it in Europe. The is in the States. It works.
But of course there's always a push.
It doesn't work as well in deeper waters.
And some of the Irish projects are going to be in deeperwaters, deeper as in 40m.

(16:05):
50m. I'm not talking about 150m, you know.
So even within the depths that you can use multiple monopoles,the effectiveness of the bubble caulking reduces with that depth also.
And this is intuitive to understand.
If it's a high current regime,the bubbles get taken away by the currents.
So instead of a bubble bubble curtain,you can imagine like putting a tube over the piling of it,

(16:30):
suddenly it's all skewed to one side or skewed to the other, but curved,so they become less effective.
So it's not.
But there are other methods.
There are also other methods with great promise.
So a lot of the sort of source reduction methods actually reduce thenoise the hammer makes or actually uses something other than a hammer.
There's one there's one called blue piling,which is a hammer, and it's very clever.

(16:53):
It uses hydraulic, but all hammers are hydraulic.
But this eases a body of water to slow down the impacts and spread.
It's that high rise time. It's problem with noise.So it spreads out the impact.
It's actually increases the efficacy of the actual piling as welland is greatly reduces the noise.

(17:15):
So you've got another technologywhich can be brought to bear, which is less depth.
Our current regime are dependent as well. So that's all good.
So there's great optimism about these technologies.
There are others.
You can use a system called vibro piling.So that vibrates the whole pile.
It literally makes its way down into the substrate.

(17:38):
So there's promise there.
There's a jetting technology which that they've been using this yearI think, or said push three piles and using a jet and technology
this year.
And the the noise it produced was barely above background noise.
You know, the ships were nearly as noisy,you know, that were in the area were nearly as easy as the piling of it.

(18:00):
So that's just hugely encouraging.
And that, that this, this, this technology is being developednow obviously jetting or any of these are dependent on the substrates.
You know, I think that obviously they chose theso the substrate was kind to them in the oyster case,
I'm sure I'm not an engineer,but there are presumably are types of grounds.

(18:22):
You wouldn't bet that wouldn't work.
There's also, drilling.
You can actually you can actually drill a hole in as well.
So so these all exist and thereand then to go back out to sort to devices that prevent the sounds
that is generated from propagation for a cofferdam.
So the resonators and sleeves that can be used so the technology exists.

(18:46):
But of course there is another push. It's very expensive.
So the developers are in the Irish case.
So they're, they'rethey're putting in their environmental impact assessment reports.
And they have to do somethingcalled a marine mammal mitigation plan as part of that.
So they survey the mammals and they try and build a picture of whatmarine mammals are likely to be there and how many the densities.

(19:11):
And, you know, that's very, very science.That's not easy. It's not easy to do.
You need a lot of data.
And even if you do have a lot of data and say, you know,this is the population density and we're very
we're very confident that this is what it is. Pick a number. But,you know, maybe they're not going to be there in the day.
Maybe there'll be twice as many on the day.
They're mobile animals, you know.

(19:33):
And and we you know, we know a bit about what they do or where they go,but not that much.
So our focus has always been on mitigate for the sounds,
you know, perhaps don't waste too much energy and trying to work outhow many poor places there are per square kilometer.
Is, is really that important? Yes.
Of course.
Support, but it's not as important as what you bring to bearto reduce the amount of noise that was made to.

(19:59):
That was my question.
You know, how how likely any of those technologies is going to be usedbecause you and I understand this is all in the planning phase,
but it's it's kind of like a repeat, a scenario that, yeah,we have all those wonderful technologies.
But in the meantime, let's do it quick and let's do itcheap and let's just pile on those.

(20:19):
So how, you know, how does that, side of it looks like,is there any lobbying going on
to use those technologies or, you know, like what what are the chancesthat we actually see them being used in those projects?
I think the chances are good.
And and I think the, you know, the lobbying is very muchis is part of my job.

(20:41):
We have good working relationships with the developers.
They are open to these conversations.
You know,they're not I've worked in essentially two offshore industries.
I've worked for oil and gas and seismic search,and I've worked for offshore renewables on the pilings.
So it all to do with mitigation for noiseand, you know, working at sea and trying to prevent that.

(21:03):
There's interaction and contrary the offshore renewable energyindustry is way ahead of the of the gas industry.
They are far more concerned about the environment top down, bottom up.
They have a completely different focus.I mean, I don't citizens disparage awake.
They are still engineers.

(21:24):
You know, they have a job to doand they take an engineering approach to us, which is correct.
Of course it is.
But they are far more concerned about the environment and far more, they seek solutions to these problems.
And obviously they do.
Are these, these technologies to reduce the sound, the noiseabatement systems, they wouldn't even exist.

(21:46):
So and the other thing is you've got a strong regulatory structurethat originated in Germany
and has spread across the European countriesthat's are are building out, offshore renewables.
And they are a long way ahead of us both in terms of their approachto us and also to what they've actually built.

(22:06):
I mean, we've got with us a few turbines on the Oracle Bank.
Not all of them work from many years ago.
But, you know, what we're looking at is a very ambitious up.
And let me say, I go off on another tangent here.
Let me just say we really do need to build offshore wind.
You know, the biggest driver for marine biodiversityloss is ultimately climate change.

(22:31):
And offshore wind is ais a really important tool in our fight against climate change.
You know, we areof course, you know, we're getting into this very place.
And there's a there's a certain sort of feeling in Irelandthat we're taking a very haphazard approach to this.
I don't believe that's true.I think we're taking quite a a pragmatic approach to us.

(22:55):
You might be aware that there are two strands to the build out of that,the so-called phase ones, which are described
and they're under the old developer led system under which the developeror multiple developers come and say, I want to put a wind farm there,
and they start to do the work to the surveys, surveythe grounds, survey, mammals, the birds, this one.

(23:16):
Build a picture,look at the geology, look at access to shore. All of these.
It's incredibly complex. These are huge projects.
So they they do this and then they apply for planning permission for.
So that's the old system, the developer led system that is gone.
So these six projects, the phase ones will go through that.
This process I imagine they won't all get permits.

(23:40):
It's it's it's expected that there will be some,you know, attrition along the way.
But you know that I'm not talk.
I'm speaking in a broad sense, not not about specific by any means. But,you know, there's a process to be done.
So it's a very difficult processand it's a process. It's brand new to all of us in this country.
So it's difficult in every sense. It's difficult for the developers.

(24:03):
It's a difficult for governments. It's difficult for the NGOs.
It's difficult for all all the agencies there are there arethere are difficulties around experience and expert
having experienced personnel having enough of them, training people up,bringing what needs to be brought to bear.
We've got tiny marine departments within our bigger departments.

(24:26):
They're very small, they are growing and we're startingto react in response, but we're starting from a very, very low base.
So this is very this is difficult. It's difficult process.
So but as part of this process and we have these ambitionsfive gigawatts by 2030, which is never going to happen, 2033 maybe.
You know, there are a lot of bottlenecks or we're, learning as we go.

(24:50):
But so we have the phase ones,as I've said, under the developer led system.
And then after that, we're switching to a map system,which is a plan that statelet system.
And as you may be aware,they've they've designated the first Irish Sea map off the south coast,
the south coast in and Department of Environment tech led that process.

(25:14):
And they you know they they brought a lot to bear.
And I think Decker very much leading thisyou know, they're they're they're everywhere.
They're very positive for focus.
They're moving forward, in a way perhaps that nobody else is will takeso they're designated this new map.
It's a very it's a complex process to to designated.
But we're so pleased it's environment.

(25:37):
First it's you know, it's it's a mapping exercise.
And mapping is all about layers of information.
And the first layers in are the environmentalists.
So it's a process.
You add all the layers and then you look at what you've got and you yourule out certain areas and go, we're not going to put anything here.
We're not running er this good work.

(25:57):
You know, we're not going to put a wind farm in the mouth of,you know, Cork Harbor.
You know,there are lots of things with a lot of restrictions. So it's a process.
It's a new year of process.
And then they remove, remove, remove and see what's leftand then say okay well where's the best place.
So the designates a broad area which is the south coast.
And then within that we have designated for specific areaswithin which then a developer may be

(26:23):
to goes looking for it.
So in some way the power has been taken out of the developeror away from the developer and moved back to the states.
So and again it pleases usthat the environment is comes in at the first at the first layer.
So it's a much better process.It's a better process for the environment.
It's a it's a better process in terms of certainty.

(26:46):
I think for the developers,we had a ridiculous Klondike situation in Ireland
under the old developer system, where every man in his jobthat could raise a couple of million
was out there shooting surveys to to essentiallyto try and lay claim to a piece of ground that they could
then say they could apply for, apply to build a wind farm on the basisthat they'd worked on the track record and so on.

(27:12):
So it was very speculative.
So there were guys out there shooting surveys saying nice everywhere.
And the foreshore license application that was onthis was under the old formal license system.
If you looked at the map,there were these surveys all around the country.
It was a source of madness.
And then, you know, the the Irish civilians are looking at these maps.

(27:35):
They don't really understand the process.How could they? It's it's a complex process.
And people ran off with the ideathat each of these was going to be a win for that.
The wind farms are going to be literally on top of each other,
and the whole coast was going to be surrounded by turbines,and it was going to be an environmental and a social disaster.
So clearly

(27:56):
the had someone had lost control of the messaging.
And it's unfortunately very difficult to turn that ship.
So because a lot of communities on the coastand people are really concerned
about offshore wind, and they are correct to be concernedbecause these are massive infrastructure projects.
We are industrializing the sea.

(28:17):
That's the truth. That is what we're doing.
But its effect, I think, is overstated.
People worry about perhaps too much. And also it's scale is overstated.I think there's a problem with scale.
Some people think that they're just going to open the windowin the morning, and there's going to be a wind farm on Thursday.
That's, it's a, it's a it's a sort of an abstract thing if you like.

(28:39):
And then on the other end of the scale,
the other end of the misunderstanding scale,I think is people don't really realize how big these things are.
You know, when you when you send on a, on a pilot vessel,I've been on a pilot vessel
that had a 270 crew, 270 on that vesselthat was in the German section of the North Sea.

(29:02):
And we were surrounded by other vesselsthat were involved in barges. Bring the pilots.
And this is a heavy lift vessel capable of lifting 10,000 tugs.
And we're putting in what we what they call a jacket.
So shut off and another one,
there's multiple layers, but there are also jacketsand a jacket is more suitable for deeper water.

(29:25):
And you drop a steel frame to the bottomand then you finish with pilots and they are called thin pilots.
Those tend to be of a smaller diameter than the big model pilots.
So, you know, it's a different approachtends to be taken for substations and for for deeper water.
More pilots, 3 or 4 per jacket but smaller diameter. So less noise.

(29:49):
But anyway, that was that tangent.
What is I talking about? Jackets.
Since we were up in the North Sea and you look aroundand you go, just look at the scale of this,
look at the number of vessels, look at the size of the machinery,look at these huge structures were pushing into the water.

(30:10):
They are massive.
And when they swing the hammer overand start to lower down, everyone's running for earplugs.
They're earplugs inside your ear. Defenders.
It's loud and that's in the air.
And it's a lot louder underwater.
An effectively louder underwater.
So so just to say that people people don't really understand the scale,

(30:31):
they, they, they,
they tend to overestimate how many of them they're going to be,but they underestimate how big the individual ones are feeling.
So yeah.
So but you know this you know, it sounds it's a, it's a, it'sa, it's a harsh term that we will industrialize our, our marine space.
It's, it sounds not like something that, an NGO would support, but,but it is something that an NGO supports.

(31:00):
This NGO certainly.
And across the NGOs, you know, those people who are, who work withand are concerned for the environment, regardless
whether it's a single species, are our, our,our species group or type or, you know,
they're all aware of the pressures being at the.

(31:23):
Com from climate change and the way that's going to increaseand that we have to do something about this.
We have to more something we have to do a lot of boats.
This is a this is a question,
that, that, I have in my mind,you know, like, like you said on the surface,
you wouldn't imagine that the NGO would supportinequality called industrialization of the sea.

(31:47):
But then climate change and the effects of climate changeare devastating to the environment as well.
How do you how do you navigate those contradictions?
Because I would imagine that your role is difficult in that way,that you have these, these, these two contradicting

(32:10):
objectives, let's say, how you how you deal with that,you know, you personally or you as an organization.
Yeah, it's something we think about when we talk about.
And someone can come up with a phrase recently, and they were in our recording, somebody else
saying that that's after renewablesis where the climate crisis meets the biodiversity crisis.

(32:32):
And I heard that and I was like,I have no idea why there was an existence of it's true.
I'm going to talk about ita bit more afterwards. And I went, yes, it is true.
There is an intersection there.
But let's not get the wrong idea that it's a zero sum game,that it's one or the other, you know, and I think it's very important
not to overstate the pressure is on when the biodiversity from the buildout of offshore wind is, is also very important not to understate.

(33:02):
We need to bring a knowledge based scientific approach to this.
We need to always be looking to the published literature,to what work has been done in other jurisdictions, other approaches,
and do the very best we can, because in the end of the daythat we're going to build those wind farms because we have to.

(33:25):
And there was huge energy and impetus that came from,you know, the Greens in the last government.
They did massive work in the rain is going to be missed.
You know, there was those huge energy brought to us and momentum,
and I, I, you know, these are big projectsand it will roll all that momentum will continue.

(33:46):
But, you know,I think we can give and and run a great deal of credit for us.
And for the, for what he brought to the Department of Environmentand the work that those guys do.
So the intersection between
biodiversity and climate,
not a zero sum game.
And we have to be both cautious but pragmatic.

(34:09):
And, you know, you say about how do you individually reconcile us, orhow do it how do we do it as an organized organization,
it's all about information.
It's about understanding, and it's about science.
You know, we we it's all about both the science, the dataand the interpretation of that correct interpretation of that.

(34:30):
And and doing the best we can and in terms of personally,I was talking about this recently
when I broaden my view to a global view, you know, climates,you know, we're hearing these terrible, predictions now.
It's wooly days and all the scientists admit that.
But potential slow down or stopping of the, occurrence,you know, the gold streamers.

(34:56):
And so, you know, this is absolutely devastating,not just to Ireland with all we'd have the same.
We'd have the same climates as Newfoundland.It would be a disaster. That's.
Yeah, that would be a disaster. Of course.
I mean, we're talking about radically changing every ecosystem on theplanet, like the the monsoons wouldn't come to India if that happened.

(35:18):
There are all sorts of things.
These are huge.
So when I, when I spread my view out and I look at what we have done
to the planet in a very short space of time,and I look at the just brutal biodiversity, nuts
and all these of this constant rise in temperature,all these potential tipping points.

(35:40):
Maybe we're already regional. And I look at thatand I go, this is a disaster.
And it is looming mean faces.
It is and this is extremely depressing.
Does the oil and gas industry,you know, continue to lobby, you know, even cop over in Baku,

(36:01):
you know, that the dollar exacerbates their their intrinsicthey're well-funded, the well-organized, the very plausible.
It's all about money short term.And they, you know, they've got massive investment in this.
And if they don't keep the thing going,they fall off a cliff financially.
They're they are remarkably slow to move into renewables,with some exceptions, considering that they have.

(36:22):
So they're so rich and they have so much technological expertiseclearly in the marine in a way that's upsetting and depressing.
That that continues.And they have the ear of governments of all around the world.
So we know that that is so then I guess upset, depressed becauseit's upsetting and, and and then I tend to narrow my focus in again

(36:46):
and I go, well, what are we doing here?
What are we going to do? What am I going to do?
And I mean, the, I would say fortune positionbecause of my job to be perhaps able to make a difference directly.
That's suggestive.
I mean, I'm delighted with my job, you know, that,you know, that I, that I'm in a position where I can make submissions,

(37:09):
which I do to a more panel on the planet applications and go,we must talk about noise abatement.
We must build it into fuel. The approach to technology exists.
The developer have to accept the expense and so on.
And that's a very narrow focus.
You know, people say, oh, you're doing a responseto environmental impact assessments from a phase one projects.

(37:31):
These the assessments are huge to come out of Paris.
You know, the prince is out that they're massive thousandsand thousands of villages.
But I don't rig think sohow do you define the tone through the words? I don't,
I just go boom, boom, boom, insta remember stuffand then boom, boom, boom to the underwater noise.
But and really, you know,if you consider that it takes teams of consultants,

(37:54):
I mean, a lot of people in a consultancy, usually in the UK,it takes them years to produce this.
And I suppose to reviewers and tables, I'm not good.I just kind of hone in.
But that narrow focus that, that,that bringing your, your focus in from that very broad,
oh God, this is very bad into a piece of workthat you can do is sort of what gets me through.

(38:19):
And the feeling does we are in some way affected people listen to us.
We have a good relationship with wind energy at a very good relationshipwith wind out of that energy.
And we did a webinar recently about underwater noise,which was brought about by Wind Energy Ireland's
to start this conversation, and they represent the developers,and we're in an unfortunate position in Ireland at the moment.

(38:46):
Whereas there's athere's a guidance document produced by National Works,
this last 1 in 2014,which it's a guidance document for how to manage underwater noise.
You know, they arethey are guidelines. It's not law but they are guidelines.
And people coming in to seismic survey or high risksurvey are piling or blasting or, you know, removal.

(39:11):
They refer to these guidelines and they make their plan.
But unfortunately the guidelines are very out of date 2014.
They don't do a piling in a in a very meaningful way.
They mentioned noise abatementand things have moved on in the ten years since they were published,
you know, and, and also the types of surveys that they

(39:31):
the guidance document was very much based around, 3D seismic surveys,which are, which are oil and gas surveys.
They're very loud.
These these massive arrogance.
That's how I started out in the industry, was mitigating for those. And,
you know, all of the, the, the sort of thinkingthe mindset is based around
these are going for 3D seismicand then that the sorts of similar stuff is applied.

(39:55):
And we take the same approachthat's very out of date and everyone's aware of that.
So, so the National Parks and Wildlife have,committed to reviewing those guidelines
and as far as I understand is what I've heardis that that process will begin in quarter two of next year.
No, you know, it wouldn'tit would have been great if it was done two years ago

(40:19):
and that the developers wouldthen have had the certainty of, of a proper framework
in which to make their applications.
So they've found themselves in a, in a, in a sort of a guidance vacuum.
So they've been plucking stuff willy nilly from other jurisdictions,mostly UK jurisdictions.
And I suppose that's also not surprising because the consultanciesare from the UK and that's the system they're familiar with.

(40:45):
And also I want to state this for the records.
They they apply UK guidancethinking and methodology to these applications.
Is is the cheapest.
It is the least precautionary.
It does not include noise abatement.
Oh so you can see where they come from.

(41:05):
You would have some sympathy.
You can see there's a sort of a small opening to save 50 million.
70 million per project.
You know, it's a lot of money. You can see why they'd want to save us.
I mean, I imaginetheir shareholders are somewhat on the saving this poor project.
So there's a lot at stake here.

(41:25):
But at the same time, the overwhelming evidence is coming,you know, and you cannot pile in the North Sea.
In the a Dutch sector by sector.
The German sector.
Without applying noise abatement,there are strict limits on how much noise you can make.

(41:47):
There's a hydrophone in the water at 750 meter from your event,and listening in real time
and integrating the noise it comes, and measuring this and comparing itto a number of other parameters for colors of noise and and peak noise.
But most importantly, I think for cumulative noise.

(42:09):
And there are hard limits. And if you hit those limits, you start
intense directed accuracy mitigation.
And I worked in the German auto and I can tell you there's
considerable tension in the room where you're sittingin front of the computer screens watching the cumulative noise go up.

(42:33):
Just go hug it up.
I don't I don't know that particular operation.I don't know how what it cost per day.
Certainly more than half of
I could.
Yeah. Could have been €1 million a day sort of operation.
Any delay is just bonkers.
So there's a lot at stake, but it can be done.

(42:55):
And what we need now is the National Parks wildlife to look at this,
to open the books on us.If you'd like to. And and we will be involved in that process.
We will be making submissionsand perhaps will be a working group put together. I sincerely hope so.
When did a to be evolved?
The developers would be, as are academics would be involved.
Underwater acoustics is really complex.

(43:18):
It's physics. I'm not a physics physicist.
Kind of is is not a physicist. I'm not an acoustician.I read about this stuff.
I understand the broad concepts,but when you actually get down to us, it's very complex.
So there's a very important role for academia in that.
And and again, it's evidence based.
We're looking at the actual science.

(43:39):
We're looking at receive levels for animals.
What that means is is is it importance our isn't it.
You know, we need to to make realistic assessments.There's some criticism of the German system.
It's too simplistic.
It's as is implies a step change conceptually, which saysany mammal presents that receives X noise level will suffer ex injury.

(44:05):
And any animal outside that will knows clearlythat's a massive simplification of the natural world is step.
So there's move towards those response curvesand an understanding that not all animals will respond in the same way.
And some of that comes from industry.

(44:27):
And for those of you who are interested in reducing conservatism,essentially
in these assessments, to say it's not actually that that, you know,and maybe there's some truth in that,
but when you use a dose response model rather than a step change model,what you find is
there are a great more animals in the far fieldsthat are subject to disturbance,

(44:54):
than perhaps had been originally assessed.
So and then if we circle back to the harbor porpoisesand our increasing understanding of their vulnerability to disturbance.
You know.
So, yeah.
So I think I think it becomes insupportablethat you would not use noise abatement.
And just finally, perhaps on the noise web based, the UK is now looking at noise abatement there.

(45:21):
They eventually they became an outlier.
They were the they were the only jurisdictionthat didn't always apply it or didn't ever applies.
So and they've built a lot of wind farms.
They built a lot of wind farmsthat are safe and sound travels as we know.
But they are now looking at it seriously.
It's starting to appear in documents.

(45:43):
And I heard
I've heard that that they're they're going to start insisting on itfor new applications.
We wait and see.
But really let's are the not then become the outlier.
Yeah. Well that's a that's that's the point.
That's the point Stephen, you mentioned response of the animals.
And so I want to, switch gears a little bit and say like once those, structures are already built right?

(46:09):
We, we passed the build phase.
Once they're built, how do they respond and adapt to them?
The the structures being there?
It's hard to say because, you know, then you start to come downto to the, to the, to the species that we have in Ireland.
I mean, it's not entirely unique and it is comparable with other places.
But, you know, we have more baleen whales, perhaps,than they have been on the UK side over in the North Sea.

(46:34):
They've porpoises and not much else,you know, whereas here we've got 26 species of, of cetaceans recorders.
Now a lot of those are deepwater species.They're not animals you're going to find in the Irish Sea.
So I think there are a number of different elementsto how a dolphin or a whale or poor boys that swimming around

(46:57):
our sea will respond to these structures
from the noise so that they continue to make a noise.
I mean, as they generate electricity, you know,there are a lot of moving parts, their care boxes and so on.
And there is a low level noise.
It's a low frequency, constant noise.And it gets noisier as it gets windier.
Saint Joseph but at the same time, the sea gets noisier as it getswhen you so does that.

(47:22):
So we're not worried are concerned about the operational noisefor fixed bottom turbines.
You know it's not a concern for the wildlife.
If some if some if it's very windy and the thing is very noisy,it is a there's no it's it's it's continuous noise.
It's not impulsive noise. And that's important to both of noise.

(47:44):
You know yourself you know. Yes isn't working.
And some hilarious person comes up behind you and the
you know, there's a startle response.
And also that high risetype is more likely to damage your hearing than a continuous noise.
So I suppose you givethe animals have more agency with a continuous noise.
There's bit along the border. Let's of them.Perhaps they could swim off somewhere else, somewhere else.

(48:08):
But there are, of course other effects to having structures in the sea.
So if you take the Irish Sea, you know it's in an areathat's that's flat. It's
been very heavily fished for generations.
It's it's flat. It doesn't have any three dimensional structures
and it doesn't have a lot of growth on it.
And then you put a big steel tube into us.

(48:30):
All these organisms settle down and start to growyour muscles would be a good example.
Sponges also.
So it kicks off a little ecosystem,a unique ecosystem on this three dimensional structure.
And you know, this is stuff that's well understood throughout the gasindustry. They've had subsea structures for generations.

(48:51):
So there is this argument, you know, on the surface of that okay.
You say, well, listen, tastic.
You know, we've got a new surface for, for marine creaturesto grow and thrive and, and people correctly make the point.
Yeah,but they're not the same creatures that would be there on muddy grounds.
You know, they're new worlds. No, they're not as itthey're not invasive species.

(49:13):
But there is a there is potential to that.
But you know, but they're not the ones that would naturally be there.
My answer to that, it's a not a natural environment out there.
We have been modifying us, you know, heavily since man, firstthrough a line in off the shore and realized we could catch a fish,

(49:35):
you know, so it's either those are knockeda knocked a winkle off the rock and that we have been modified.
There isn't a it's an exaggeration to saythey're in the square inch of the planet that hasn't been modified.
But you know what I'm saying?Yeah. Yeah, it's heavily muddy. It's like.
Anyway, it's like, like these, these novel ecosystems.
I think it was, episode two 184,and we were talking about the novel ecosystems.

(49:59):
It's kind of like a in that vein, something new is is appearing there.
And I heard, on one of the conferencesthat the Seals tend to be finding good feeding grounds
between those, those structures, because the naturally fish tendsto congregate around underwater structures.
As I'm sure every angler listening to this podcast know, and and so and so seals tends to be tends to aggregate more around them as well. So

(50:30):
this is
tell me like is there a role for citizen scienceor citizen scientists to be engaged in in this sort of
in monitoring marine mammal wildlife around those farms or in, you know,any way of influencing the decisions, like you said, for example, to,
use the noise mitigation practices,anything like so in other words, you know, you

(50:57):
you mentioned that when you know how you deal with thatand what I'm taking very naturally from that
is that you have a sense of agency over what's goingon, and sense of agency always helps to deal with whatever that is.
So that's my question about the citizen science.
Is there any agency that that citizenswho are concerned, can have and what they can do?

(51:22):
Well, I mean, yes.
Gets was yes.
Join an NGO, get involved.
It's an elbow to elbow thing for me to say,
there's Irish whales and dolphinswhere you could, you could pick there as well in dolphin group
as a, as a representative NGO in the marine in the marine space thereuntil you get a description link in the description.

(51:44):
So yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And you know that that the main, the main NGOs in the marine sector,the wildlife group Birdwatch, Irish Wildlife Trust and so on,
and so and coastal with me.
Sorry, can't you know, and we all do what we do.
The asshole dolphin group is a primary data holder,and a great deal of that data comes from citizen science.

(52:10):
It has power. Data has power information.
Every game is a game of information.
If you have information, what can you say? If you have no information,what can you say? You can't say anything.
What's your. It's talking about your emotions and your opinions.
But your opinions are based on that thing.So it's all about information.
So there's one of the best as maintained as sightings databaseback to 2005.

(52:34):
It's robust.
It's good data.
It's validated data.
You know, you rig up.
Well the other groups that I saw, I'm sure it's, it's a pilot. What?
It's all boats with you know, and then hang up.
We don't go. Oh, yeah,this guy is also pilot. Well, and that goes in as a pilot. Well, record.
No, you will be quizzed and we'll get to the bottomof whether it was a pilot, whether or not I just,

(52:58):
I just say that like, recorded an episode with the, with a gentlemanwho used to work as a forest ranger in the UK
and he was talking about the recorders,like people were sending records.
What did they see in the, in the forest and the monk are other,you know, lions, panthers, the usual stuff.
There was a Jabberwocky also. And he's like, yeah.

(53:20):
And that that is the record that we have that someone sawand they even drew a picture there.
So you you don't do that.
Hey, can you tell me exactly about this sea monsterthat just the Kraken?
We saw the cracker. I think,
so Burke really manages the the sightings and the sighting.

(53:40):
Based on all that validation,I think you've had Burke on this show. Yes.
Or if it's very, very effective.
And he we. Those are, if necessary, downgrades.
You know, you might go from. Oh, it was definitely winky whales.
We just gotta put it in as well speciesbecause we're not sure now that of course biases,

(54:02):
biases the data sets if you like to.
It perhaps shrinks it to some extent,but it is important that the data is accurate.
Otherwise what's it for?
But then again, when youthen when you step outside that and say, well, what is it for?
It's a record of the presence of an animalor a group of animals in a place on a day.

(54:22):
But if you extend that out to the Irish esthetics,which is huge, you know, you cannot generate a density estimates
for the for anywhere on the basis of datathat was collected without recorded effort.
So if you stand on a headland or you're in an aircraftor you're in a boat and you are,

(54:47):
recording whether dolphins license
you do that as part of a very carefully designed process
that will result in strong statistics and a measure of uncertaintyso that you can generate this density estimates,
you know, these distant samples, there's all these very statisticalbig bring to bear, but it's all based on your efforts.

(55:12):
So what's your what was recorded is your effort.
You were in a boat. You were traveling at 12 knots.You were an aircraft.
You're traveling at all hundred and 50 yards. You were
you were an hour on a headland.
You were two hours ahead.
So in so you you're you're at the units of time,
becomes two units of effortand then you look at the area and you can generate statistics from that.

(55:34):
So citizen science is very important but it is presence only.
Data is still presence absence there.
You can't say there was no well there the day before.
No no you weren't there the day before.
So so it's very that's very important to draw the distinction.
But it must be said it still has considerable power because it has.

(55:58):
Nobody else has. Is
you know, we have a record for an animal there on that day.
If we didn't have that records, nobody would know.
So then when you map and then we, we look at thousandsand thousands of records and you map them and you go, oh rock.
Well, obviously you're going to have clusters where you've got clustersof volunteers and citizen scientists putting in, putting it in there.

(56:25):
All you can do is you can deal statistically with that as well.You can. It's complex.
Use this thing called ensemble modeling.
There's a there's a tendency to use words like tools.
This wonderful group, Miguel just finishing up his PhD, you know,and he use really good modeling techniques.
So he took the database specifically robust.And then he did habitat modeling.

(56:48):
And he was able to make inference fromit is really impressive that you can do it
because there's sort of an old fashioned notion that, oh, it's there'sno I from the sources.
We can't do anything with it.Turns out you can't. And statistics are more and more sophisticated.
Modeling is more sophisticated then they canyou can tease the information out because the information is in there.

(57:10):
But it's just a cheese.
Cheese rolls in a way that you can present. And it's plausibleand you can send over it.
So we well did that.
So it has power that's there as well.
Dorf group, which for the science, we also operate a stranding scheme.
So we've got a data set of, of both live and deadstranded animals or rock culture.

(57:33):
That's also important. Back to the pork was is in the Irish Sea.
The trend is. Oh, okay. Good. That's good news. The trend is up.
You know there there are more the you know there are more deadpork was is on the beach over time.
It's it's you know, it's hard data. It's there we have it.
So that's a good news.
This is a good point of view.

(57:54):
It's it's good news. We have a good news, folks. More purposes.
You heard us here.
Yeah, yeah. So.
But it shows the power of the data, and it's citizen science.
Summary.
An Irish well driving group member, Arnott is walking on the beachwith their dog or driving on a road, and they look out the goal.

(58:16):
What's that? And they go over and have a look at that.Well, it's a day. It's dolphin. I don't know what it is.
What do you do when you find a dead dolphin and then,you know, maybe make a call and they end up talking to
to surf for somebody at the office, the strandings officerthere have to take a photograph to send it in suddenly.
Got that?
I actually that's a good point to mention.Like I actually made a video a couple of years ago.

(58:39):
Now it might be, you know, like thethe website might change, might have changed.
But I made a video, which is on my YouTube channel, how to record a stranding on, on
on your website and, you know, and I don't donate as an examplebecause I found the, dolphin.
And so they get okay, so, folks, this is what you do.
So anyone who is interested, you can go to my, my YouTube channel.

(59:03):
That video is there.
And yeah, I just recorded stranding.And you don't have to be a member of Irish Diving.
Does anyone? There's no one. There's no no, no, it'sthere's an app. Like I said, that video is a couple of years old.
So probably things changes are even easier than they used to be.
Steven,if you could implement one policy change tomorrow for better protecting,

(59:25):
marine mammals, marine life around those offshore wind farms,what other would be noise abatement
sympathizers that you bring
that you to find an acceptable level of noise,and then you bring the technology to bear
to table or the club or I about

(59:46):
this is so it's not so it's not so that policy like yousaid, it's it's we're still lagging and that's why we're not there yet.
And I am confident there's momentum now, you know.
And, and people are becoming more aware of it or whatever has a problem.
There are also they are aware of the solutions to the
you know and we we try to maintain our portfoliowith the, with Google departments, which is some work with tech,

(01:00:11):
which is work very practical as we try and keep those channels openand to to keep the message coming.
And over time I'm built.
Expertise is an exaggeration.
I did say I'm neither a physicist nor an acoustician,
but my understanding of of the old world noise basedand the science behind us is improving over time.

(01:00:31):
My ability to perhaps, to to both directly lobby because we're an NGOand we do lobby, but we're lobbying based on science.
We're not lobbying based on emotion.
Our opinion, it's sides, folks,if you enjoying this episode, remember to subscribe to my newsletter.
The link is also in the description of the show,along with the other links.

(01:00:53):
Go in there and you will get much more content,not only notification is about the new episodes of the podcast.
Stephen, to wrap this up, if you look at your into your crystal ball,how do you see the future of oceans of seas and what role in this,
the offshore wind and renewables are playing that the seas are thereunder pressure, you know, along with the rest of the planet.

(01:01:19):
The seas are under pressure, and perhaps
it's under pressure in ways that are more difficult to predict.
Tipping points perhaps will have more profound effects as well.
There is a a new focus to the marine, particularly in Ireland.
I was at a ministry, a conference on ocean knowledge 2030just yesterday and the day before, and I guess noble.

(01:01:43):
And there is this not renewed.
It's a new focus on the sea.
And a lot of this is coming from
the necessity to build offshore wind drones.
You know, suddenly we have to look at this.We have to engage with this in a way we didn't have to before.
It was sort of abstract, with the exception of the fisheries.

(01:02:05):
So, you know that that that was a very live thing, a live issue managedby a common Fisheries Policy ministry for involved in that.
Various agencies.
But but but only for a week.
But now we've got our very to examine,think about to work out how we're going to do it,
but also the interaction that we know already and everything else.

(01:02:29):
Fisheries blue.
The prime example.
So suddenly everyone's attention is on this now.
And that can only be good.
You know, this this concept of sea blindness people talk aboutin this country, we're an island nation, but we're sea blind.
It's. So you're aware of this?
Of course.
Are, but things are changing because our focus is nowis is being pulled offshore because we've this work to do.

(01:02:55):
So we need to catch up.
We need to catch up in termsof, of, students, you know, taking courses.
You know, it's going to be a big industry.
And, and not only the industrial side of it,but also the ecology that underpins the planning decisions.
All this is the this, you know, we're going to need young peopleto move into that space to become experts.

(01:03:20):
It's very important.
So it starts there.
It starts in secondary schools, primary schools,you know, getting kids interested in this stuff and it moves out or not.
And then into the state agencies, the government departments, Coviditself, awareness, awareness, words and more resources.
Doing blocks where you know, where,where as I said at the beginning, we're starting from quite a low base.

(01:03:40):
In terms of, of of that engagements with the marine, with exceptions.
Quotes from George Lopez.
But that's turning around now.
And more resources are going in, more people are being employed.
New agents, Mara, brand new agency involved license and and say,you know, brand spanking new agency, very, very impressive.

(01:04:01):
Impressive approach. Their approach,the breadth of their and are doing is nice.
You know what I mean?
Does not an of the old foreshoreacts of the 30s slapped slapdash bits and pieces added on or a shrug.
It's not my job. That's somebody else's job. Those days are over.
We're taking it. Have taken it on headon, though, in a way we never had before.

(01:04:25):
So I would take us, I take a positive message from that.
But the overarching messages, we're under pressure.
We have a lot to do.
We're starting very loose.
Stephen, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.Thank you very much. So lovely.
Oh, it's, before you go, since you stick to the end of this show, thenfirst and foremost, thank you so much for listening and for watching.

(01:04:50):
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