November 10, 2025 • 43 mins
We sit down with Grant Doubell to unpack how a South African contractor rebuilt in Georgia, blending commercial planning with residential service to cut years off the learning curve. We get honest about “coffee stains,” preconstruction discipline, and the financial habits that keep builders in business.
• origin story from development to GC
• early scrappy jobs and learning by doing
• moving to the US and translating skills
• lingo shifts and trade expectations
• client advocacy over good old boys
• three-bid procurement and backup subs
• commercial-grade preconstruction for homes
• residential care on commercial projects
• COVID shock and the forced reset
• fixing coffee stains in quoting and closeout
• cash flow, retainage, and profit discipline
• acting big before you are big
• horizon thinking and value of coaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover
the good, the bad, and the uglyof growing a successful
contracting company.
Welcome to Contractor Cuts.
My name is Clark Turner.
Thank you for joining us againthis week.
So today I've got a specialguest on the podcast with me.
(00:21):
His name is Grant Dubel.
He is a good friend of mine.
We've we've uh been buddies fora little while.
And he is also a contractor uhin the same space and thought
it'd be great to bring him on.
He's got a really cool backstoryof how he got into this and his
transition uh to the states.
He's from South Africa, andyou'll probably tell that from a
(00:43):
slight accent as as he startstalking.
But uh today we're gonna talkabout his story, kind of
interview him a little bit andget to know uh really what I
think is pretty intriguing youknow, what's different about the
US and how construction workshere versus in other countries.
Um what did you have to learn?
What what changed when you camehere?
So I'm I'm pretty excited tojump in with you.
(01:03):
So welcome to the show, Grant.
SPEAKER_03 (01:05):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Only a slight accent.
Only a slight accent.
Yeah.
Can you do an American accent?
I mean, I can, I'm not going tonow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
I can't do a South African accent.
SPEAKER_03 (01:15):
You try.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
No.
If if you do it, I'll do itwe'll do the whole interview
trying our our terrible accents.
Cool.
All right.
So, Grant, you born and raisedin South Africa.
Um, kind of give us thebackstory.
Tell us uh how you got intoconstruction, what it was like,
you know, when, what age, howdid you get into this?
Was this something your dad wasdoing?
You kind of followed hisfootsteps, was this something
(01:38):
that you know you just got intobecause you went to school for
it?
Like what's what's your originstory in getting into the
industry?
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Sure.
So um probably quite typical ofa lot of contractors, it is kind
of not the main plan.
You know, it's not what wasgoing to happen.
So I kind of finished highschool, went to university, um,
at the back of university,landed up joining father's
business.
Um, and literally, you know, ummy dad was developing, doing
proper real estate development,and uh I went to him, I'm like,
(02:04):
cool, now what?
And he said, Well, I've got aspace, you can come be a site
superintendent, join the guythat's building for us, yeah,
and uh kind of just step in, getin the trenches.
So literally from uh and like goback a little kind of university
was like investment management,ecos, etc.
etc.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
But um was it a did you go there with a mindset to
get into this, or was it likejust go to school because that's
what I'm gonna do and figure itout from there?
SPEAKER_03 (02:28):
Exactly.
So not at all the plan.
And uh it's I I won't lie, ithas definitely put me in good
stead down the way, um, goodunderstanding of of money and
what comes with it in the kindof financial aspects of
construction.
Yeah.
But um, I certainly didn'texpect to uh go from there to
getting into the trenches anddigging holes and making sure
the concrete was kind of set tothe levels it needed to be, etc.
(02:50):
You know, so very much uhrudimentary beginning or start
from the ground, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Was was your dad was it his company or was he working
for a larger company?
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
It was his company, but he kind of did it on the
side.
He would, you know, he ran a uha large property, uh a real
estate newspaper.
Yeah.
And uh it was kind of it sort ofmade sense for him just to buy
land and develop it on the side.
And uh so he would get a typicalkind of contractor scenario
where a contractor comes in andbuilds, he'd just be the
developer.
SPEAKER_05 (03:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Um and then I got involved with him on that.
And then I I worked with him forprobably eight years um working
in that space before starting myown GC business.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah.
What what tell us about that?
What prompted you to start a GCbusiness versus going to work
for one of the other GCs in thearea?
SPEAKER_03 (03:33):
Um so I I don't think I've ever really worked
for someone, is in the sense oflike uh what's the terminology
at W-2?
SPEAKER_05 (03:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Uh like kind of direct employee.
So it's not something I was usedto.
Um I'd uh I'd worked with himfor so long, probably picked up
a couple bad habits along theway of like how to do it and how
not to do it, yeah.
Uh as far as employees go.
And um and a friend from highschool in interior design
actually came to me and waslike, Hey, I want to start a
thing.
(04:01):
Um, and so we, you know, webounced around the idea.
I thought I'd set him up inbusiness, and down the way it
turned into me leaving myfather's business, joining him.
Um my father was actually apartner in that business for a
period of time.
It's called Ground Up.
Um, the South African businessis called Ground Up, so is the
American one.
Um, and uh and yeah, joined um aguy named Tyler.
(04:21):
We jumped in, uh got goingtogether, and uh the rest was
history.
You know, he was in the businessfor a little while, but um left
probably a year or two later,and then it ended up just being
me, kind of um separated it out.
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Um was this late 20s, early 30s?
What when was this?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
So this was around 2010.
Um I'd been in a number of otherbusinesses from marketing and
selling spare parts like trucksand buses, um, to um yeah, I
mean all kinds of differentthings, but uh that was kind of
at the same time as thedevelopment business with my
dad, and then when it becameground up, it became ground up,
like that was the that was themain kind of thing.
(04:56):
Yeah, and so a little bit ofthat like stick to the main
thing concept, yeah.
That's where we got to you.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
Cool.
What's um you started your owncompany with with Tyler?
Uh you you started going, whatwas that like?
Was it uh did you feel was itsuccessful the first year?
Was did it start going well?
Was it just kind of shootingfrom the hip and and we're
hunting and eating what we hunt,and that's about it right now?
(05:22):
Like what was what was that thatexperience?
SPEAKER_03 (05:24):
It's funny because it's like go deep quickly, you
know, it's like uh those firstcouple of years are uh those
first couple of years are hard,you know, it's like lifestyle
business.
We're gonna like figure out howwe go as we go.
SPEAKER_05 (05:36):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Um it was I mean it was good, but he was kind of out
of the business quicker than wegot going and got kind of
running.
Yeah.
Um so the first years, you know,you pick up a pick up a job
because a friend's mom needssomething done, and you're like,
hey, we can do that.
Yeah.
It's like, can you really?
SPEAKER_05 (05:51):
We're like, uh find someone to do it.
We'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
It's like can you?
And that's very much the SouthAfrican way.
It's like, you know, we'll we'llstep into it.
I've mentioned some of this,like you'll do residential and
commercial, and people are like,How?
And you're like, well, you justkind of do whatever someone asks
you if you can.
Yeah.
And if it's kind of within yourwheelhouse, you'll figure it
out, you know, you'll get itdone.
So started off with um, youknow, small add-ons to houses,
(06:15):
like additions, and then smallremodels, and then it just kind
of grew legs as it went.
Um, as I say, when Tyler leftthe business, it was a matter of
like, hey man, I want out, andwe're like, okay, let's look at
the numbers.
We looked at the numberstogether, we're like, cool,
let's shake hands, we'll justcall it what it is.
Yeah.
Kind of separated from there,and uh, and the rest was
history, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
So what's um I know that what you came over to
Georgia.
SPEAKER_03 (06:40):
End of 22.
22.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
So about about three to four years ago.
Yeah, three.
Um, I'm good at math.
So uh when that happened, thattransition, I know that you
still have business in SouthAfrica.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
What um kind of bring us in on that transition
entering into the US market andkind of getting your feet wet?
What was what was shocking toyou?
What was kind of the like, whoa,this is different, or hey, this
is exactly the same, it runs thesame.
Kind of give us the the theplay-by-play on that.
When when you're coming overhere, coming for the first time,
(07:17):
second time after visiting, whenyou're moving your whole family
here and kids and all thatstuff.
What was shocking to the system?
What was kind of, oh, this feelslike feels like home?
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Um, so I think I was quite well prepared for that
exact thing because everyonethat heard that I was going to
come and start working here waslike, well, how how do you do
it?
It's feet and inches, it'scentimeters and millimeters.
Like they build it differently.
We build brick and mortar, andin Georgia, a lot of it is kind
of stick frame, you know, as anexample.
But um, in the in the kind ofproject management processes of
(07:49):
what come down to come down towhat construction is, you know,
the ceiling is the ceiling andthe wall is the wall.
So when you're kind of planningand scheduling, that's that's
not that difficult to kind ofget your head around.
But um, I think I mentioned thisthe other day.
The first job I ever did overhere, the guys that arrived to
start framing literally didn'tknow what they were doing with
regard to setting outs and allthe rest.
(08:10):
And I was like, well, here wego.
This is the crash course, youknow.
So um, you know, I was surprisedat how quickly I could pick that
up, and that's not a me thing, Ithink just anyone.
Yeah, you just pick it upquickly.
You know, math is math, and youknow, you'll get there.
Um, the terminology isinteresting.
It's like uh, you know, everyonetalks about sheet rock as if
sheetrock is a thing as opposedto a brand, you know.
(08:30):
Yeah, am I correct?
Yeah, sheetrock's the brand,right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Like Kleenex is uh is a tissue, exactly.
Or sheetrock is drywall, buteveryone calls it sheetrock.
SPEAKER_03 (08:39):
Correct.
And so, like in South Africa,everyone talks about rhinolite,
which is like a skimmingcompound.
No one talks about skimmingcompound, it's rhinolite.
And so the same thing here.
There's some there's some kindof nuance or some some lingo
that's in the trade.
Yeah, and that'll be state bystate, and that'll be company by
company.
But you know, those are thethings that someone says
something and you stop andyou're like, you look for a
(08:59):
moment, you're like, What?
Yeah, it's a little bit like myaccent, you know.
The first sentence, people thinkI'm speaking a different
language altogether, and thenlike, oh, it's actually English,
you know.
Yeah, um, and then it's helpful,I suppose.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Yeah.
So coming over, you know,getting your first job, meeting
those guys, start starting toget starting to something brand
new here.
Sure.
Were there any other hurdlesthat you had to jump over?
Paperwork, um, that that sort ofthing, um, red tape from the
government, and anything thatwas difficult for you, or was it
kind of very similar and youjust kind of googled it and
(09:33):
figured it out and you're goodto go?
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
So fortunately, my wife's a citizen, so life is
super easy in that regard.
You know, so um there was aperiod of time where I was
running, um, was running uhwell, I had a business in South
Africa running.
I was living here, and um, youknow, it was like checking in on
your business that you can't goand visit and you can't go and
do anything.
It's 3 a.m.
(09:56):
or time.
Yeah, so six-hour timedifference, um, you know, all
remote, you know, it's it's aninteresting kind of time.
So um anyway, that was like uhprobably a nine to twelve month
period, and then um I opened thesame version of the business,
it's very creative.
I literally took the same logo,the same brand, and replicated
it, yeah.
Yeah, took out all the U'sbecause you know, in America
(10:18):
there's no use.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
You guys had u's everywhere, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Colour.
So we just uh color.
Literally, I can't say color toSuri without it coming up with
some random words.
But um but yeah, so copy paste abusiness over here.
I started, um, kind of gotgoing.
You know, the stuff that you youhave to figure out as you go,
it's all different except it'sall the same.
Yeah.
You kind of uh do your thing.
Um, you have the samechallenges.
(10:41):
It's like, where do you go findyour customer?
Like figure that out.
A lot of it is referral-based,figure that out.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
A lot of it is like Well, and you don't have the
connections here that you did inSouth Africa.
So the referral base is kind oflike starting from the
beginning, like trying to findthose referrals.
And how do you how do you getinto the into the weeds with
people in the area to referstuff to you?
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Sure.
And like, you know, there's athere's a common phrase, it's
like your your network is yournet worth.
And um I think in constructionthat is like tremendously true.
SPEAKER_05 (11:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:10):
And so I was a guy doing a thing in Johannesburg,
South Africa, where there wasalmost I don't want to say
there's nothing I couldn'tsolve, but it was like if we ran
into an issue and doing businessthere is different, like the
city's different, the council'sdifferent, like it's just a a
different animal altogether.
Yeah.
If someone needed something doneand they phoned me, I could
probably get them close to ananswer if I couldn't do it
(11:30):
myself.
You know?
Then you get here and it's like,oh, that's what we've got to do.
And then you stop and thinkabout it.
Like you forget about the the 20years of experience that you
have in an industry because itjust becomes second nature.
SPEAKER_05 (11:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:43):
And um, and so you get you and you have that
question thrown at you.
It's like, oh, what do you thinkabout this?
You're like, hmm, this is notthe right answer because it's
going to come acrossdifferently.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Do you do you almost second like I would feel second
guessing everything because it'slike, what do I not know?
Like what what I know I don'tknow something.
Like, what am I what should Ilook up to to figure out the
answer?
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
Did was that any of the things that you Yeah, so so
(13:06):
it's funny when you're preparingto do a big thing, like
initially it was a sabbatical,and then it was like we like it
here.
And then we're like, how do westay?
Like what what does that looklike?
So um in the planning to get tothe US, you know, you run
through that quadrant and youfinally get to the one that is
the unknown unknown.
And the same applied in work,you know.
So I'd start working over hereand someone asks you a question,
(13:27):
it's like completely left field,and you're like not sure how to
answer it at first.
And then I won't lie, AI came ata perfect time.
It's pretty easy to solve almostany problem.
You know, it's like hop onlineand figure out what you need to
and like terminology.
Yep.
As soon as you realize that it'sthe same thing, that that
boundary is gone.
Yeah, you know, you thenprobably come with a um a unique
(13:48):
perspective because then all ofa sudden you're coming from that
different place of South Africais like a scarce mindset or like
scarcity mindset, it's like ahuge thing there compared to
this abundance thing here, um,which is amazing, I must say.
The people that have helped meset up have been like extremely
open to to help.
Um, but the unique thing and thevalue there is you know, when
(14:09):
someone says, Hey, what are wegonna do here?
I'm thinking a completelydifferent way.
Like I come with this uhprobably incorrect but different
thought process.
And if people take the time tobe part of that, or if I can get
to where they are quickly, wecan come up with a different
kind of solution to what aproblem is.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
Do you have an example of that?
SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Um we might have to loop back here, but um, you
know, if uh so a couple ofthings come to mind, but one is
like just the procurementprocess.
You know, I I would 100% getthree quotes, uh well, maybe 95%
get three quotes on everything Ido.
Um, whereas a lot of guys herehave like got their guys,
(14:49):
they've got their teams, they'vegot their people.
And it's not to say that yourguys don't get the work, yeah,
of course not, but you do wantto have a kind of a backup plan,
you know.
You want to have a team ofpeople you can call on so that
you've got different kinds oflevels of trade and different
levels of things.
Um, you know, when you'rerunning a project, you're not
often going to have A plusplayers on every kind of trade.
SPEAKER_05 (15:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
Um and that's not to say you want to have a C grade
player, but at the same time,you can have a B if you've got
all A pluses.
Yeah.
And you know, you want to havethat kind of backup.
So um, you know, it's probablyunique, you know, none of it is
a matter of trying to likereinvent the wheel of how you do
it, but I just I look at it froma cost perspective that you know
often it's in the favor of theclient.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Yeah, well, one one thing and uh and question about
it of is this kind of standardacross South Africa or is this
how you ran things?
But you you know, from ourconversations, uh talking
business, you are way more oflike a client rep, right?
You are you set yourself up as aclient advocate to where you're
(15:53):
their representative, which isthe way ProStruct is set up.
That's that's the whole coachingmodel of like if I can get them
on my side, coach the, you know,be their advocate, protect their
money, protect their investment,then I got a long-term
relationship with them, which ishow you've you've up you
operate.
Sure.
But most GCs in the US operatethe opposite.
(16:13):
It's they're boys, they're thegood old boys.
I got my cabinet guy, I got mymy trim guy, and that's who I
use, and it's me and my guysversus the client.
Where we're trying to get moneyout of the client, me and my
guys, where we're trying to, youknow, my the whole coaching that
we do is I'm your advocate.
It's me and the client againstthe cruise where I'm trying to
protect you, I'm trying to makesure that everything's done
(16:33):
well, which is how you you setyour your company up.
Is that standard kind of inSouth Africa with with that, or
is it kind of the same as the USdown there where there's most of
the guys are them and theircompany uh with their guys
versus having three bids andhaving kind of more of the
client rep mindset?
SPEAKER_03 (16:52):
Sure.
So there's a bunch in there.
Um it depends what work I'mdoing.
Yeah.
So I consult to some companiesover here, as as you'll know.
Um, and when I'm consulting, youknow, if I consult as an owner's
representative, I'm kind of, youknow, I'm on the owner's team,
yeah.
And I'm and I'm bringingeverything I know about
construction to make sure that acontractor is just doing what
(17:14):
they said they would do.
Yeah.
You know, I um the value thereis that I'm able to look at what
they're doing with a differentperspective.
I'm like, I've worn your hatbefore.
So when this is unfair on you, Ican protect you.
But at the same time, don't doit dirty on the client because
I'm here to protect theirinterests, you know?
And so that probably just keepsthings transparent and honest.
Um, as far as how I set myselfup in a GC perspective, I um
(17:39):
this is like a uh it's almostlike a coined phrase within
Ground of South Africa.
It's like we partner with theclient, we partner with the
supply.
And we literally sit in likecore values are uh are literally
P-A-R-T-N-E R.
It's like uh a little bitembarrassing that that's what it
came down to.
It's like P for professional,you know, it's like it's where
we go.
Um, you know, in there istransparency, etc.
(18:00):
So, you know, we sit in thisspace where it's like this
client's trying to achievesomething.
How do we partner with them tohelp them get to where they're
trying to go?
And in that is quality, time,money, you know, like there's
all those usual things.
But then on the other side ofit, you know, we're looking at
suppliers, we're building a teamin advance.
We're saying, you know, there'sthree quotes coming in, but
early on you know who it is, andwe'll work with these guys.
(18:20):
A lot of those subs know eachother.
I'd have like a Christmas dinnerat the end of the year, and I
have my suppliers come and havedinner together because I want
plumber A to know plumber B, andhe's not taking food off his
table, he's making sure that hecan cover the base so that I'm
not losing work when it'snecessary because he wasn't
available, you know.
So you can move quicker, you cando all those things.
(18:41):
But again, talking to the kindof residential and commercial
aspect, you know, I've alwayssaid, and it's funny because
here I've got to be so carefulwhat I if I don't have time like
this on a podcast to explainmyself, I've got to be careful
how it lands.
Because if I say I do commercialand residential, people are
like, Well, which one are yougood at?
You know?
Yeah.
But um, there's no doubt that aresidential mindset, mindset,
(19:01):
and kind of consideration of aclient adds value in commercial,
where commercial is just likebang, bang, bang, get it done.
But then in a residentialenvironment, when you can come
with a commercial mindset andyou're like, I'm actually
worrying about dollars andcents, I'm like looking at what
this thing costs, not sayingtake away from the sub, like you
want a guy to be able to fix aproblem because he can afford
to, because he made enough moneyin the job.
(19:22):
Yeah.
And so fair and reasonable.
But you do still need to haveprocess or process, should I
say, that is able to take youfrom residential to commercial
and and back, you know?
So um, we will specialize moreas time goes on, but where we
sit at the moment is that likehappy hybrid between the two.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Well, and I know some of the commercial stuff
you've done is more kind ofresidential style, where it's
it's more uh hands-on designer,you know, or it's like design
build-out, like design buildturn.
Tenant improvements, designbuild-out type stuff with that
that you which is morehomeowner-centric, more
residential style in terms ofselections and picking this out
(20:04):
and caring about colors.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
And that's probably close to how we got there, you
know.
It's like people were lookingalong the design line.
Yeah.
Um, and it's funny, it's like Iget to call international
design, you know.
But uh, is that what they'relike in South Africa?
Yeah.
Um, but it's like people wantedto bring their homes into their
office space.
Yeah.
And so we just naturally grewinto that space because we knew
how to do it well, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Well, and the beauty of it too is the reverse is like
commercial is 90%pre-construction work.
Like it's it's uh all planning.
That's all commercial is whichthat's where most residential
guys miss it is they say, I gota signature, get the get the
crew, let's get on site, andwe'll figure it out as we go.
And that's where you lose yourmoney, you lose your time, you
lose everything messes up whenyou don't plan.
(20:48):
And so that's that's you know,the way you run is very similar
to the way I coach in terms oflike we need to do the
residential front end likecommercial and the commercial
back end like residential.
I want my commercial to behandheld where it's it's very
service-oriented client, even ifI'm building a warehouse, like I
want it still ran the way towhere I can I can satisfy and
(21:09):
appease the customer on thecommercial side and where
they're impressed with theproject, not cool, it got done
on to the next.
And then on the residential, Iwant to have more commercial
front end where I want I want itplanned.
I want my pre-construction phaseto be where I spend 90% of my
time.
So when hammers start swinging,it's actually it's knocking
down, right?
And it's we know exactly whatwe're doing, no decisions, no
(21:30):
fire drills with the customer onweek seven about, hey, we gotta
do this, and what about this?
And have you picked out yourpaint colors?
And have you done like all ofthat stuff is where we get it
wrong and the residential sideis not planning for it.
So I think that's that's thatwas something that I noticed
when we were talking about howyou run your company.
It's like it's very um it's agood balance of the residential
commercial in terms of kind ofwriting that sweet spot between
(21:52):
the two.
SPEAKER_03 (21:53):
Absolutely.
And linked to that as you'resaying it, it's like you know,
I've thought about this before,I haven't thought about it for
long.
You know, the client,residential or not, comes in
wanting it to be commerciallyminded.
SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
You know, whether they want to be in for Christmas
or they want to just get intotheir house, there's like
something in their mind thatlinks back to time and a
schedule, schedule, schedule.
Um you've then got um, you know,you've got the money aspect,
they are a little bit morerelaxed on how much they're
going to spend, but they want tobe in charge of the extra spend,
the part that you're in chargeof, and like that's something
(22:24):
that I'll take deep pride in.
You know, it's like the the theaspects that I can control
budget-wise.
Yeah, you know, we used to havelike a 1% overrun over like a
five-year period over like 50projects or whatever it was on
things we control, like brick,paint, you know, like the the
things that you had no say in asa client.
Um but then when it comes toprovisional sums and all of the
(22:46):
things that they get a say in,they want to be able to say, I
like that force it, but I wantthis one.
I don't get to say no to that.
I say, sure, of course you canhave it, unless it's gonna
affect the schedule or thequality or the, you know.
So if they're aware of thebudget increase, that's fine,
but they still commercially wantyou to be thinking about money.
SPEAKER_05 (23:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
Um, whereas a lot of guys in residential, I find, get
into that space of like, well,it's residential, you know, it's
chilled, it's gonna be fine.
Like no one's really tooconcerned about it, except that
the client's uh specificinterest is all the commercials,
you know?
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's how they get pissedoff at the end and never never
use you again and neverrecommend you because you didn't
run it that way.
Sure.
Yeah.
So going back to your story, uhlanding here, getting started,
going from a sabbatical toliving here and and starting the
company.
What was kind of the pros andcons of that?
I mean, you it's almost a fullreset.
(23:39):
Like you're starting a newcompany even though you already
built a company.
Sure.
What what was tell me thatexperience?
SPEAKER_03 (23:44):
Sure.
So the the pros and cons arelike 10 years into business.
Um, and like this is notspecifically pros and cons, but
it's a fact, you know, 10 yearsinto business.
Um, I'm running this thing on myown by then.
Um things are looking good.
We teed up nicely.
It's 2019.
I've got like a got a contractfor 250 clinics, small, but like
250 clinics, they're about toroll out.
(24:07):
Um, and COVID happens,obviously.
And um, I sit in this spacewhere I've received some money
up front.
You know, I've taken depositsfrom clients, some of them
wanted to pay up front, and youknow, whatever.
I've got clients' money in theiraccount.
I've got terms set up with mysuppliers, and South Africa goes
into a lockdown.
The lockdown is that um, and forfor many good and bad reasons,
you know, like differentcircumstances, people live in
(24:29):
different ways there.
Um, construction was not anessential service.
Yeah.
And so I try to pivot or beagile, you know, all those all
the terms we knew were right.
SPEAKER_05 (24:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
Uh try to become like a maintenance business that
could run on my app, you know,like used a boardroom booking
system as a quick app fix.
Yeah.
I think I made like 585 Rand togive you context, it's like one
cent, I don't know, five cents,fifteen cents.
Um, in in three months.
You know, I literally couldn'tgive a design job away.
I was trying to give free designaway because I knew that if we
(24:59):
came back with things designed,we'd be able to get into
construction.
And uh so for three months wedidn't build anything, um, had
no earning, um, couldn't give ajob away.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
Yeah.
And so Well, and at thebeginning of COVID, it was like,
oh, we're just two weeks away.
We're we're a week uh one moreweek of everyone staying inside
and then we'll be good.
SPEAKER_03 (25:16):
I mean, man, people spoke about 18 months and I was
like, You're all lunatics.
Yeah, there's no way.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
There's no way.
They won't do that.
The government won't do it.
And so yeah, we were I mean, thewhat you just said is so funny.
It's like, well, let's just getthe designs going because we're
uh next month we'll we'll hit goon the construction and we'll be
good to go.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Yeah, yeah.
And on the client side, they'relike, I can design it for free
and waste my time or be with mykids because I don't know when
I'm gonna come back.
I don't think so.
Anyway, we go through thatprocess.
Um, I run out of supplier termsbecause I pay as many people as
I can possibly pay.
Um, our working capital, all ofa sudden, I'm like, oh, that
wasn't what I thought it was.
Our cash flow is just no longerthe thing that it resembled, you
(25:53):
know.
Um, and so anyway, reset need tostart again.
And one of the things, you know,you've probably heard me say
this to you sometimes.
It's like we had a hundredreasons between the US and South
Africa, and there were like 51in favor of the US by the time
we decided.
It's not like, you know, itwasn't this grass greener story.
Yeah, one of the reasons was wehad to reset.
And if I'm going to start again,you know, in adverted commerce,
(26:16):
start again 20 years down theline, do I do it in Rand or
dollar?
And I was like, this makes abunch of sense.
So came over here, got torestart, um, whether I like it
or not.
Um, you know, uh I'll neveractually forget.
I remember talking to a businesscoach of mine, um, an
exceptional guy, um, really,really good, influence on my
life, really valuable, valuableresource.
(26:37):
Um, he says, you know, you'renot starting again, you're
taking a 20-year head start andthen starting.
He's like, think about 20 yearsago when you started, you really
knew nothing.
Yeah.
The fast track will be easier.
Yeah.
And he was mostly right.
But um, you know, you bring allthe lessons with you as you go,
and then you get to leave theones behind and you get to
choose again, you know.
So that was a worthwhileprocess, you know, go and cut
(27:00):
through it all, bring the secretsource, you know, like what are
the things that were worthbringing?
Um, you know, what are thecoffee stains that your business
had?
Like, what are the things thatyou just, you know, you got
known for that you're not goodat, that people forgave you for
because they liked you.
Yeah.
You know, it's like people wouldphone my phone because it was
grant, not necessarily becauseit was ground up and you know,
remove the coffee stain out ofyour business, the thing that
(27:21):
upsets people.
SPEAKER_05 (27:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:23):
Like I got to think about those things.
I got to process all of that andrun through the if I reset, what
do I leave behind?
Like, what are the mistakes thatI didn't even know that I knew
or had learned?
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Well, do you what did you find?
What what what were those?
What were your coffee stains?
What were the things that thatyou feel like you were able to
reset, kind of white uh whiteerasboard, get it, get it out of
here, get rid of that the way Ioperated, the way I did?
What were there any like give ussome of the details of those
lessons?
SPEAKER_03 (27:53):
Sure.
So um so the coffee stainconcept is you know, I'm sitting
in a in a learning, I used to bea member of a thing called
Entrepreneurs Organization, andone of the ladies that was in
that, one of the members thatwas in it was in it with us was
a uh coach.
Yeah and um she's doing thislearning day and she's talking
about coffee stains in yourbusiness.
And at first I'm like, hmm, thisis an interesting concept.
And then it's like, cool, sowhat are your coffee stains?
(28:14):
Yeah.
And I was like, wow, now we'regetting honest.
Like, uh, what's the thing aboutme and my business that I don't
like?
And I'm like, we are definitelyslow to quote, you know.
Someone's like, hey, can youcome put this proposal together?
I'm like, of course.
I'm there within like 30minutes.
I chat to you.
We're like, this is on.
I'm like on fire for it.
I'm excited for it.
Um, ADHD is probably kicking inat some point.
(28:35):
I'm like, this is all dopamine,you know?
And then you get back into therhythm of the things you've got
to get done.
And the next thing it's like aweek later, they're like, hey,
what's happening with thequotes?
And you're like, oh, I'm nearlythere.
SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
Like, oh no.
SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
I mean, you know, it hasn't left the mind, but you're
like, it's there.
Like after two weeks, you'relike, I can't believe another
week's gone.
But it's just, you know, how youprioritize that.
And where I got it wrong isthat, you know, no client of
mine now wants to hear this, butI'll say it anyway.
Like, I always took the approachof the person paying me today
gets all my attention, exceptthat that never protected my
(29:08):
business for the future becauseI was so stuck in the project I
was in because I felt I owed itto that client.
And it's not that you don't oweit to that client or that I
don't owe it to that client,it's that there's a definite
hybrid version somewhere inbetween where you can block out
time and you can go focus on thething.
So to answer the question, thecoffee stain was slow to quote.
Um, another one was um slow toget a final count out.
(29:31):
You know, the the process ofwrapping that all up at the end
was always so hard to do.
And I wrote off tons of moneyover the years in that exact
thing.
You know, by the time you cometo a client and you're like, hey
man, you owe us this money, andthey're looking at you, they're
like, Who are you again?
You know, like that's too long,you know.
So getting yourself billed tothe point that uh, you know,
you're sitting at punch uh orcall the snag um in in South
(29:55):
Africa and many other places,like probably everywhere except
the US.
Calls it the snag, the punch?
Snag meeting, you know, thepunch meeting, snag list.
Uh so there's one, yeah, youknow, first time uh someone
spoke about the punch list.
I was like, where are we going?
Uh someone's hitting me, what'sa punch?
Yeah, exactly.
So um, and every now and thenlike I'll drop the snag thing
and I see someone look at me andI immediately change to punch
(30:16):
and I don't admit that I gotanything wrong, you know.
But um, if you're leaving morethan your retainage out there,
that's your fault.
And it was my fault, you know.
And I um I had to own a lot ofthat.
Yeah.
If you start looking at it,you're like, wow, you know, I'm
so hard done by these people,didn't pay.
And then I'm like, they didn'tpay, and that's true, and it's
not okay.
But how much of this can I getto take ownership of?
(30:36):
So there's a lot of that kind ofthing where you stop and look at
it again.
Um, you know, the things youtake with you, you realize
quickly that as a contractor,like number one on the list of
things you should have to learnbefore you can be a GC is
financial management.
Like to not know where yournumbers are, to not know how
much money you have, to not knowwhat your your cash flow
(30:56):
conversion cycle looks like.
Like to think that this client'smoney because it's deposited in
your bank is your money, is justyou know, and no one's trying to
do that.
Yeah, but if you don't have agreat base and understanding of
it, it's just so easy to fallinto that trap.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
It's it's a the problem, and I mean what makes
construction different thanalmost any other other thing is
that the way you start thecompany is not the way you can
grow a company, right?
You always fall back.
Like when I'm running a job bymyself when I was starting my
company, like I've I go out anddo the work, I find a job, I get
(31:32):
money, and I'm on that job.
So all of those processes, allthe financial management, all
that's in my head, because I'mon one job and it's easy to know
it.
And okay, all the money in thisaccount, I gotta spend this, and
I gotta spend this.
So I got two grand left in itthat I can take out myself.
Great, done.
You can't scale that way though.
And the problem is guys do itthat way.
They start working that way, andit makes sense for them that
(31:54):
way, and that's just thefoundation that they built.
And then you start adding morejobs and more jobs and more
jobs.
You they start hiring projectmanagers, which are really
glorified assistants.
And those guys are now supposedto run it, but they don't have
the same mechanics in theirbrain that you do.
And so your assistant who is nowrunning projects for you isn't
looking at the dollars thatyou're looking at.
(32:15):
They're just saying, money in,money out, good, I'm good to go.
And those companies crashbecause there's no financial
management, there's noknowledge, there's no controls
as the owner to run, but youdon't realize that until you're
too late.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
And so that's that's that's one of my, you know, I
love the coffee stain concept.
I'm stealing that from you, FYI,but uh you'll we'll probably
talk about it on the retreat,and you're gonna be on the
retreat too.
So that's perfect.
Uh, I might have you lead thatsession when we talk about that.
But that being said, like Ithink that's part of it too of
all of those coffee stains thatpeople have that that that their
(32:49):
companies are known for, that'skind of left behind when they're
done.
No one purposefully sets thatup.
Like that's not a choice.
That's not a, hey, you knowwhat?
I'm just not gonna get back topeople on estimates.
No, you just don't have a goodprocess in the front end.
Absolutely.
And so figuring out those, and Ithink that's the beauty of our
coaching, is let us show you howcoffee stains are made and let's
avoid those from the foundation.
(33:11):
So let's build on a reallywell-laid foundation as opposed
to let's build a big, now let'sgo back, tear out your
foundation, and rebuild thefoundation underneath the house
that you've built.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
You can't, right?
And so that I love that that uhthat concept, the the coffee
sane where you can kind of lookback at it because it's like
that's that's that's where youget stuck, where you get known
for, and what ends up endingyour company or really
preventing your growth.
Because it's like, I like Grant,Grant's a good dude.
I'm always gonna have Grant domy my my renovations that I
(33:42):
need.
I'm not gonna tell my neighborsabout Grant because I don't want
them to have to deal with whatI've dealt with, but I'm fine
with dealing with it.
Yeah.
Right.
I think the the one of the worstthings you can be in
construction is a good company,not a great company.
Because the uh a goodconstruction company is a
company that is good at givingyou the product.
I'm a my kitchens are the mostbeautiful kitchens.
(34:04):
You're not gonna get anotherperson put a kitchen in better.
Uh it was hard to get numbersfrom me, it was hard to
communicate.
You never knew when my guys aregonna be there.
All of throughout the process,you didn't know what was going
on as my customer.
No matter how good my kitchenis, I'm it's a good, it's a
great kitchen, but you're notgonna refer me to anybody.
I got no word of mouth comingbecause you're like, yeah, I'll
(34:26):
deal with him, but I'm not gonnahave my mom deal with him.
I'm not gonna have my neighbordeal with him.
And so I think being a reallygood company like that, but with
no processes in place is kind ofthe purgatory that companies get
into where it's like, I've hit aceiling, I can't grow, I can't
do anything else with my companybecause I'm just I don't
understand why, but I'm workingharder, making less than I did
(34:47):
last year.
And I'm working more and I'mhunting this, and I can't seem
to get clients, and I can't, andit's like, well, that's because
we've we've got the stain,right?
We've got the this this coffeestain on your company and the
foundation's built wrong.
Yeah, and so we got to teareverything down to redo that
foundation and build it upagain.
And do you have the heart andthe gut to go through that,
(35:08):
right?
And I think that's the hard partwith companies.
A bad company goes out ofbusiness pretty quickly.
A good company stays in businessfor 20 years and doesn't grow.
And that's that's what I'mtrying to avoid with when I'm
coaching guys, is like, I wantyou to be a great company.
I want you to be a company thatgrows strategically.
We know where your dollars are.
And one of one of the big thingswith that is like most guys in
(35:29):
our industry, when I get there,I'll start doing that.
I'll start my QuickBooks when Iget to this level, when I start
going beyond two jobs at a time.
The problem is you're nevergonna get there until you build
a foundation to get there on.
Sure.
And it's like you you you haveto act like a big company before
you become a big company.
100%.
You can't just start as a big,good comp great company.
(35:50):
It's like, no, you gotta actlike that before you are, have
your processes in place.
So when you start going, justgas on the fire and it's
growing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:57):
That concept of having a, you know, doing big
business and small business hasthat really, really helped.
And like going back a little bitto what I could bring with me,
you know, the South African wayis um at the biggest, my company
had 60 people in it.
Yeah.
Um, a lot of that is site staffand guys that are kind of on the
ground doing the doing thelabor.
Sure.
But because the economy of whatthat is is that you can afford
(36:20):
more people, um, but you thenhave to go and hunt for work to
make sure there's somewhere forthose guys to go.
Yeah.
But the background of it is thatyou just have different things
to focus on.
And so there's always someonenew coming in, there's always
change, um, and having aplaybook that you can get back
to goes a long way.
Yeah.
But um the the the piece you'resaying there about like big
business and small business, youknow, I ran a bigger business,
(36:41):
and so I bring those lessonswith me when I start now.
Yeah, I've always believed it.
Um, but I'll also say, you know,you can go the you can go the
route of building this bigbusiness and you can also still
get it wrong.
And linked to that is, you know,I thought I was gonna scale this
business and turn into this mostscalable thing, but I forgot to
take profit out along the way.
Um, and that's such an easy trapto fall into as well.
(37:02):
I'm reinvesting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
I'm just gonna reinvest.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
You typically you put everything back in, it's
probably into a bit of dirt,it's into some real estate, it's
those sorts of things.
But the truth is that thosethose markets change as well,
and so you know, be cautioned asto where you put them.
But um, that concept of I'mgonna take every cent the
business makes, every dollargoes back into the business, you
know, you get to the end of it.
(37:25):
If things do turn, if things dogo wrong, if there's another
COVID event and you stop andlook, you're like, oh wow, you
know, everything was in thereand then it got decided for me,
you know.
So being able to take thatproject money out in projects as
you go along the way issomething that I would, you
know, I'll never make thatmistake again.
Yeah.
And um, anyone that ever asksme, I'll go out of my way to try
and help them with that.
And that's not to say don'tscale, and it's not to say don't
(37:48):
um prepare for the future.
It's just like don't grow fasterthan you have to.
SPEAKER_04 (37:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Don't like get to when you need QuickBooks and
then decide you do.
Have that in place and runningbecause that's low cost to be
prepared and running well.
Yeah.
But you don't need 30 staff toopen your doors.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Yeah, don't go hire an office manager and a product
day one.
Like that.
Yeah.
It's kind of the the thought oflike, I'm trying to get to the
horizon.
And if I have no plan and I'venever been to the horizon
before, like most guys startingcompanies, they're just
wandering through the woods andyou're going left and going
right and kind of goingopportunistic, right?
(38:25):
Uh I got this, and so now I'mgonna try a commercial job and
now I'm gonna do investmentproperties.
I might flip one myself and I'mgonna do.
And it's like they're wanderingthrough the woods with no game
plan and path.
And I think that's the one, youknow, with you restarting in in
the US, you've been to thehorizon in South Africa.
And so you kind of understand,oh, this is a better way to walk
(38:46):
that path.
I think that's what coachingdoes for guys, too, is like on
on my side, I'm like, listen,I've gotten to the horizon and
and I've I've made every wrongturn on the way there.
Let me show you kind of the pathand let's walk through that.
Let me be a guide on that path.
I'm not gonna, I'm not walkingit for you, but I'll guide you
down it.
And so I think that's that'skind of the the big like if we
build it with a goal of whatthat horizon feels like to where
(39:10):
the structure now works when weduplicate to that size, then
it's a very smooth and easypath.
Uh and it's not a wondering andmaking the wrong decision.
You're gonna find the horizon.
We we all have, and we've allmade the hard decisions to get
there.
Not all, but like like with whatyou did and what I've done, like
I I took the worst path.
I I took a I I mean, I've got uhI've got loans that I took out
(39:36):
over 10 years ago that I'malmost done paying back.
Right?
Stuff like that to where it'slike uh you know, the the oh, if
we just have more money, let'sget it, let's go, let's let's
run and let's borrow half amillion and and run after this,
and we can hire these people anddo and it's like what are you
doing?
Like that, like I I just wish Icould shake Clark of 2010, 20
and 2008.
SPEAKER_03 (39:56):
Well, the interesting thing is that the
horizon, and I'm sure you didthis intentionally, it's a thing
in the distance, it's not likean exact place.
Yep, right.
And so no matter what thehorizon is, we each have one.
Yeah.
So even the guy that failed,he's got a horizon that he got
to.
And if he tells that story back,and this is where coaching is
just so valuable, it's like I'vehit the horizon of whatever mine
(40:16):
was.
Now I get to tell you the storyof how to get there fast.
And like I reflect on this asyou speak.
You know, it took me 20 years toget to a point that we landed up
in America.
Yeah, um, took me 20 years toget to a point of whatever my
horizon was, and now I've set upagain in re realistically, it's
it'll be two years at the end ofthis year that this company has
been in existence, and we willbe 80% of the way to where we
(40:40):
were.
Um with the 20 years.
Yeah, exactly.
So two in two and twenty kind ofthing to do a similar kind of uh
kind of uh distance in in how toset up well, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
So that's it's like you're you're kind of selling my
coaching stuff, but my my mywhat I always say to guys, like,
I'm not a guru, like I'm I'mnot, I don't know more than you.
You can figure this out in thenext eight to twelve years and
get there.
Like, let's just expedite thatdown to 18 months and let me
help you kind of sure navigatethat path.
Like, let's let's get thatfoundation set up and let's get
(41:13):
you there so a you don't have tohave those six-figure bad
decision mistakes that I that Ihad to make.
But but B, like, let's expediteit and then you're successful in
18 months, not eight years fromnow.
And that's let's avoid the thepitfalls and the traps that you
fall into that you don't realizewhere the road looks like I
should go left, but in reality,let me tell you the reasons we
got to go right because of this,this, and this, it's smarter to
(41:34):
go right on this decision.
So yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
Also, I mean you you know, coaching, you're probably
more directional.
You're gonna tell people this ishow I've seen it, but at the
same time, it's an experienceshare.
You know, it's like this is thisis what I did and how I did it.
And the person who's on theother side's either gonna do it
or not.
Yeah, they're gonna listen toyou and they're gonna think
about which way they want to go.
Yep.
Um, I just know what didn't workfor me, or at least I know what
worked for me for a while.
(41:57):
Yep.
And sometimes I was too slow torealize that it had changed.
SPEAKER_05 (42:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Um, and that in itself is a whole story.
It's like, you know, it'schanging in front of you.
You are so used to a certainway, um, instead of stopping and
checking in every now and then,you know, like once a quarter,
stop and pay attention to thething that changed in your
business.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
Zoom out a 30,000-foot view and look at it
actually.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
And like, am I still the right guy to run this
business?
You know, am I still the perfectperson to be the CEO, the
president?
Yeah.
If you started it, the chancesare it's probably no.
If it's a business.
Um, but it doesn't mean it'salways the case and doesn't mean
you'll do a terrible job.
It just means like, you know, Ilove starting businesses
personally, like me as Grant.
Like, I love startingbusinesses.
(42:38):
Do I love running themindefinitely the same way every
day for the rest of my life?
I'm like, nah, not really, notso much.
And that's where projects areare joyful.
You know, project starts, itends, you get to see the thing
you built.
It's like that feels good, it'samazing, it's great.
You're sharing that with thecustomer.
Um, and then you get to go do itall over again, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Yeah, I I think that's great.
Well, well, I appreciate youcoming on, man.
This has been great.
I mean uh if if you are comingon the retreat, Grant should be
on the retreat.
It looks like I think he'scoming on it with us.
So you can meet him there.
Um, but yeah, it's it's been umit's been fun.
Glad to have you.
We'll probably have you back atsome point to talk about some
more specific topics.
SPEAKER_03 (43:17):
Now that people know what my accent sounds like and
what I'm actually saying.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, watch this be a fakeaccent.
You show up.
People talk to you, it's notreal, but he's from New Jersey,
actually.
So South Georgia.
Yeah.
Cool, man.
Well, good to meet you.
Meet you.
Good to talk with you.
Thanks for being on the podcast,and uh, we'll see you guys next
week.
Cool.
Thank you.
Welcome to Contractor Cuts, where we cover
the good, the bad, and the uglyof growing a successful
contracting company.
Welcome to Contractor Cuts.
My name is Clark Turner.
Thank you for joining us againthis week.
So today I've got a specialguest on the podcast with me.
(00:21):
His name is Grant Dubel.
He is a good friend of mine.
We've we've uh been buddies fora little while.
And he is also a contractor uhin the same space and thought
it'd be great to bring him on.
He's got a really cool backstoryof how he got into this and his
transition uh to the states.
He's from South Africa, andyou'll probably tell that from a
(00:43):
slight accent as as he startstalking.
But uh today we're gonna talkabout his story, kind of
interview him a little bit andget to know uh really what I
think is pretty intriguing youknow, what's different about the
US and how construction workshere versus in other countries.
Um what did you have to learn?
What what changed when you camehere?
So I'm I'm pretty excited tojump in with you.
(01:03):
So welcome to the show, Grant.
SPEAKER_03 (01:05):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Only a slight accent.
Only a slight accent.
Yeah.
Can you do an American accent?
I mean, I can, I'm not going tonow.
SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
I can't do a South African accent.
SPEAKER_03 (01:15):
You try.
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
No.
If if you do it, I'll do itwe'll do the whole interview
trying our our terrible accents.
Cool.
All right.
So, Grant, you born and raisedin South Africa.
Um, kind of give us thebackstory.
Tell us uh how you got intoconstruction, what it was like,
you know, when, what age, howdid you get into this?
Was this something your dad wasdoing?
You kind of followed hisfootsteps, was this something
(01:38):
that you know you just got intobecause you went to school for
it?
Like what's what's your originstory in getting into the
industry?
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Sure.
So um probably quite typical ofa lot of contractors, it is kind
of not the main plan.
You know, it's not what wasgoing to happen.
So I kind of finished highschool, went to university, um,
at the back of university,landed up joining father's
business.
Um, and literally, you know, ummy dad was developing, doing
proper real estate development,and uh I went to him, I'm like,
(02:04):
cool, now what?
And he said, Well, I've got aspace, you can come be a site
superintendent, join the guythat's building for us, yeah,
and uh kind of just step in, getin the trenches.
So literally from uh and like goback a little kind of university
was like investment management,ecos, etc.
etc.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
But um was it a did you go there with a mindset to
get into this, or was it likejust go to school because that's
what I'm gonna do and figure itout from there?
SPEAKER_03 (02:28):
Exactly.
So not at all the plan.
And uh it's I I won't lie, ithas definitely put me in good
stead down the way, um, goodunderstanding of of money and
what comes with it in the kindof financial aspects of
construction.
Yeah.
But um, I certainly didn'texpect to uh go from there to
getting into the trenches anddigging holes and making sure
the concrete was kind of set tothe levels it needed to be, etc.
(02:50):
You know, so very much uhrudimentary beginning or start
from the ground, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Was was your dad was it his company or was he working
for a larger company?
SPEAKER_03 (02:59):
It was his company, but he kind of did it on the
side.
He would, you know, he ran a uha large property, uh a real
estate newspaper.
Yeah.
And uh it was kind of it sort ofmade sense for him just to buy
land and develop it on the side.
And uh so he would get a typicalkind of contractor scenario
where a contractor comes in andbuilds, he'd just be the
developer.
SPEAKER_05 (03:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:17):
Um and then I got involved with him on that.
And then I I worked with him forprobably eight years um working
in that space before starting myown GC business.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah.
What what tell us about that?
What prompted you to start a GCbusiness versus going to work
for one of the other GCs in thearea?
SPEAKER_03 (03:33):
Um so I I don't think I've ever really worked
for someone, is in the sense oflike uh what's the terminology
at W-2?
SPEAKER_05 (03:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (03:40):
Uh like kind of direct employee.
So it's not something I was usedto.
Um I'd uh I'd worked with himfor so long, probably picked up
a couple bad habits along theway of like how to do it and how
not to do it, yeah.
Uh as far as employees go.
And um and a friend from highschool in interior design
actually came to me and waslike, Hey, I want to start a
thing.
(04:01):
Um, and so we, you know, webounced around the idea.
I thought I'd set him up inbusiness, and down the way it
turned into me leaving myfather's business, joining him.
Um my father was actually apartner in that business for a
period of time.
It's called Ground Up.
Um, the South African businessis called Ground Up, so is the
American one.
Um, and uh and yeah, joined um aguy named Tyler.
(04:21):
We jumped in, uh got goingtogether, and uh the rest was
history.
You know, he was in the businessfor a little while, but um left
probably a year or two later,and then it ended up just being
me, kind of um separated it out.
SPEAKER_00 (04:32):
Um was this late 20s, early 30s?
What when was this?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
So this was around 2010.
Um I'd been in a number of otherbusinesses from marketing and
selling spare parts like trucksand buses, um, to um yeah, I
mean all kinds of differentthings, but uh that was kind of
at the same time as thedevelopment business with my
dad, and then when it becameground up, it became ground up,
like that was the that was themain kind of thing.
(04:56):
Yeah, and so a little bit ofthat like stick to the main
thing concept, yeah.
That's where we got to you.
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
Cool.
What's um you started your owncompany with with Tyler?
Uh you you started going, whatwas that like?
Was it uh did you feel was itsuccessful the first year?
Was did it start going well?
Was it just kind of shootingfrom the hip and and we're
hunting and eating what we hunt,and that's about it right now?
(05:22):
Like what was what was that thatexperience?
SPEAKER_03 (05:24):
It's funny because it's like go deep quickly, you
know, it's like uh those firstcouple of years are uh those
first couple of years are hard,you know, it's like lifestyle
business.
We're gonna like figure out howwe go as we go.
SPEAKER_05 (05:36):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Um it was I mean it was good, but he was kind of out
of the business quicker than wegot going and got kind of
running.
Yeah.
Um so the first years, you know,you pick up a pick up a job
because a friend's mom needssomething done, and you're like,
hey, we can do that.
Yeah.
It's like, can you really?
SPEAKER_05 (05:51):
We're like, uh find someone to do it.
We'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
It's like can you?
And that's very much the SouthAfrican way.
It's like, you know, we'll we'llstep into it.
I've mentioned some of this,like you'll do residential and
commercial, and people are like,How?
And you're like, well, you justkind of do whatever someone asks
you if you can.
Yeah.
And if it's kind of within yourwheelhouse, you'll figure it
out, you know, you'll get itdone.
So started off with um, youknow, small add-ons to houses,
(06:15):
like additions, and then smallremodels, and then it just kind
of grew legs as it went.
Um, as I say, when Tyler leftthe business, it was a matter of
like, hey man, I want out, andwe're like, okay, let's look at
the numbers.
We looked at the numberstogether, we're like, cool,
let's shake hands, we'll justcall it what it is.
Yeah.
Kind of separated from there,and uh, and the rest was
history, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
So what's um I know that what you came over to
Georgia.
SPEAKER_03 (06:40):
End of 22.
22.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
So about about three to four years ago.
Yeah, three.
Um, I'm good at math.
So uh when that happened, thattransition, I know that you
still have business in SouthAfrica.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
What um kind of bring us in on that transition
entering into the US market andkind of getting your feet wet?
What was what was shocking toyou?
What was kind of the like, whoa,this is different, or hey, this
is exactly the same, it runs thesame.
Kind of give us the the theplay-by-play on that.
When when you're coming overhere, coming for the first time,
(07:17):
second time after visiting, whenyou're moving your whole family
here and kids and all thatstuff.
What was shocking to the system?
What was kind of, oh, this feelslike feels like home?
SPEAKER_03 (07:27):
Um, so I think I was quite well prepared for that
exact thing because everyonethat heard that I was going to
come and start working here waslike, well, how how do you do
it?
It's feet and inches, it'scentimeters and millimeters.
Like they build it differently.
We build brick and mortar, andin Georgia, a lot of it is kind
of stick frame, you know, as anexample.
But um, in the in the kind ofproject management processes of
(07:49):
what come down to come down towhat construction is, you know,
the ceiling is the ceiling andthe wall is the wall.
So when you're kind of planningand scheduling, that's that's
not that difficult to kind ofget your head around.
But um, I think I mentioned thisthe other day.
The first job I ever did overhere, the guys that arrived to
start framing literally didn'tknow what they were doing with
regard to setting outs and allthe rest.
(08:10):
And I was like, well, here wego.
This is the crash course, youknow.
So um, you know, I was surprisedat how quickly I could pick that
up, and that's not a me thing, Ithink just anyone.
Yeah, you just pick it upquickly.
You know, math is math, and youknow, you'll get there.
Um, the terminology isinteresting.
It's like uh, you know, everyonetalks about sheet rock as if
sheetrock is a thing as opposedto a brand, you know.
(08:30):
Yeah, am I correct?
Yeah, sheetrock's the brand,right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Like Kleenex is uh is a tissue, exactly.
Or sheetrock is drywall, buteveryone calls it sheetrock.
SPEAKER_03 (08:39):
Correct.
And so, like in South Africa,everyone talks about rhinolite,
which is like a skimmingcompound.
No one talks about skimmingcompound, it's rhinolite.
And so the same thing here.
There's some there's some kindof nuance or some some lingo
that's in the trade.
Yeah, and that'll be state bystate, and that'll be company by
company.
But you know, those are thethings that someone says
something and you stop andyou're like, you look for a
(08:59):
moment, you're like, What?
Yeah, it's a little bit like myaccent, you know.
The first sentence, people thinkI'm speaking a different
language altogether, and thenlike, oh, it's actually English,
you know.
Yeah, um, and then it's helpful,I suppose.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Yeah.
So coming over, you know,getting your first job, meeting
those guys, start starting toget starting to something brand
new here.
Sure.
Were there any other hurdlesthat you had to jump over?
Paperwork, um, that that sort ofthing, um, red tape from the
government, and anything thatwas difficult for you, or was it
kind of very similar and youjust kind of googled it and
(09:33):
figured it out and you're goodto go?
SPEAKER_03 (09:36):
So fortunately, my wife's a citizen, so life is
super easy in that regard.
You know, so um there was aperiod of time where I was
running, um, was running uhwell, I had a business in South
Africa running.
I was living here, and um, youknow, it was like checking in on
your business that you can't goand visit and you can't go and
do anything.
It's 3 a.m.
(09:56):
or time.
Yeah, so six-hour timedifference, um, you know, all
remote, you know, it's it's aninteresting kind of time.
So um anyway, that was like uhprobably a nine to twelve month
period, and then um I opened thesame version of the business,
it's very creative.
I literally took the same logo,the same brand, and replicated
it, yeah.
Yeah, took out all the U'sbecause you know, in America
(10:18):
there's no use.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
You guys had u's everywhere, exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
Colour.
So we just uh color.
Literally, I can't say color toSuri without it coming up with
some random words.
But um but yeah, so copy paste abusiness over here.
I started, um, kind of gotgoing.
You know, the stuff that you youhave to figure out as you go,
it's all different except it'sall the same.
Yeah.
You kind of uh do your thing.
Um, you have the samechallenges.
(10:41):
It's like, where do you go findyour customer?
Like figure that out.
A lot of it is referral-based,figure that out.
SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
A lot of it is like Well, and you don't have the
connections here that you did inSouth Africa.
So the referral base is kind oflike starting from the
beginning, like trying to findthose referrals.
And how do you how do you getinto the into the weeds with
people in the area to referstuff to you?
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Sure.
And like, you know, there's athere's a common phrase, it's
like your your network is yournet worth.
And um I think in constructionthat is like tremendously true.
SPEAKER_05 (11:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:10):
And so I was a guy doing a thing in Johannesburg,
South Africa, where there wasalmost I don't want to say
there's nothing I couldn'tsolve, but it was like if we ran
into an issue and doing businessthere is different, like the
city's different, the council'sdifferent, like it's just a a
different animal altogether.
Yeah.
If someone needed something doneand they phoned me, I could
probably get them close to ananswer if I couldn't do it
(11:30):
myself.
You know?
Then you get here and it's like,oh, that's what we've got to do.
And then you stop and thinkabout it.
Like you forget about the the 20years of experience that you
have in an industry because itjust becomes second nature.
SPEAKER_05 (11:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:43):
And um, and so you get you and you have that
question thrown at you.
It's like, oh, what do you thinkabout this?
You're like, hmm, this is notthe right answer because it's
going to come acrossdifferently.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Do you do you almost second like I would feel second
guessing everything because it'slike, what do I not know?
Like what what I know I don'tknow something.
Like, what am I what should Ilook up to to figure out the
answer?
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
Did was that any of the things that you Yeah, so so
(13:06):
it's funny when you're preparingto do a big thing, like
initially it was a sabbatical,and then it was like we like it
here.
And then we're like, how do westay?
Like what what does that looklike?
So um in the planning to get tothe US, you know, you run
through that quadrant and youfinally get to the one that is
the unknown unknown.
And the same applied in work,you know.
So I'd start working over hereand someone asks you a question,
(13:27):
it's like completely left field,and you're like not sure how to
answer it at first.
And then I won't lie, AI came ata perfect time.
It's pretty easy to solve almostany problem.
You know, it's like hop onlineand figure out what you need to
and like terminology.
Yep.
As soon as you realize that it'sthe same thing, that that
boundary is gone.
Yeah, you know, you thenprobably come with a um a unique
(13:48):
perspective because then all ofa sudden you're coming from that
different place of South Africais like a scarce mindset or like
scarcity mindset, it's like ahuge thing there compared to
this abundance thing here, um,which is amazing, I must say.
The people that have helped meset up have been like extremely
open to to help.
Um, but the unique thing and thevalue there is you know, when
(14:09):
someone says, Hey, what are wegonna do here?
I'm thinking a completelydifferent way.
Like I come with this uhprobably incorrect but different
thought process.
And if people take the time tobe part of that, or if I can get
to where they are quickly, wecan come up with a different
kind of solution to what aproblem is.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
Do you have an example of that?
SPEAKER_03 (14:29):
Um we might have to loop back here, but um, you
know, if uh so a couple ofthings come to mind, but one is
like just the procurementprocess.
You know, I I would 100% getthree quotes, uh well, maybe 95%
get three quotes on everything Ido.
Um, whereas a lot of guys herehave like got their guys,
(14:49):
they've got their teams, they'vegot their people.
And it's not to say that yourguys don't get the work, yeah,
of course not, but you do wantto have a kind of a backup plan,
you know.
You want to have a team ofpeople you can call on so that
you've got different kinds oflevels of trade and different
levels of things.
Um, you know, when you'rerunning a project, you're not
often going to have A plusplayers on every kind of trade.
SPEAKER_05 (15:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
Um and that's not to say you want to have a C grade
player, but at the same time,you can have a B if you've got
all A pluses.
Yeah.
And you know, you want to havethat kind of backup.
So um, you know, it's probablyunique, you know, none of it is
a matter of trying to likereinvent the wheel of how you do
it, but I just I look at it froma cost perspective that you know
often it's in the favor of theclient.
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Yeah, well, one one thing and uh and question about
it of is this kind of standardacross South Africa or is this
how you ran things?
But you you know, from ourconversations, uh talking
business, you are way more oflike a client rep, right?
You are you set yourself up as aclient advocate to where you're
(15:53):
their representative, which isthe way ProStruct is set up.
That's that's the whole coachingmodel of like if I can get them
on my side, coach the, you know,be their advocate, protect their
money, protect their investment,then I got a long-term
relationship with them, which ishow you've you've up you
operate.
Sure.
But most GCs in the US operatethe opposite.
(16:13):
It's they're boys, they're thegood old boys.
I got my cabinet guy, I got mymy trim guy, and that's who I
use, and it's me and my guysversus the client.
Where we're trying to get moneyout of the client, me and my
guys, where we're trying to, youknow, my the whole coaching that
we do is I'm your advocate.
It's me and the client againstthe cruise where I'm trying to
protect you, I'm trying to makesure that everything's done
(16:33):
well, which is how you you setyour your company up.
Is that standard kind of inSouth Africa with with that, or
is it kind of the same as the USdown there where there's most of
the guys are them and theircompany uh with their guys
versus having three bids andhaving kind of more of the
client rep mindset?
SPEAKER_03 (16:52):
Sure.
So there's a bunch in there.
Um it depends what work I'mdoing.
Yeah.
So I consult to some companiesover here, as as you'll know.
Um, and when I'm consulting, youknow, if I consult as an owner's
representative, I'm kind of, youknow, I'm on the owner's team,
yeah.
And I'm and I'm bringingeverything I know about
construction to make sure that acontractor is just doing what
(17:14):
they said they would do.
Yeah.
You know, I um the value thereis that I'm able to look at what
they're doing with a differentperspective.
I'm like, I've worn your hatbefore.
So when this is unfair on you, Ican protect you.
But at the same time, don't doit dirty on the client because
I'm here to protect theirinterests, you know?
And so that probably just keepsthings transparent and honest.
Um, as far as how I set myselfup in a GC perspective, I um
(17:39):
this is like a uh it's almostlike a coined phrase within
Ground of South Africa.
It's like we partner with theclient, we partner with the
supply.
And we literally sit in likecore values are uh are literally
P-A-R-T-N-E R.
It's like uh a little bitembarrassing that that's what it
came down to.
It's like P for professional,you know, it's like it's where
we go.
Um, you know, in there istransparency, etc.
(18:00):
So, you know, we sit in thisspace where it's like this
client's trying to achievesomething.
How do we partner with them tohelp them get to where they're
trying to go?
And in that is quality, time,money, you know, like there's
all those usual things.
But then on the other side ofit, you know, we're looking at
suppliers, we're building a teamin advance.
We're saying, you know, there'sthree quotes coming in, but
early on you know who it is, andwe'll work with these guys.
(18:20):
A lot of those subs know eachother.
I'd have like a Christmas dinnerat the end of the year, and I
have my suppliers come and havedinner together because I want
plumber A to know plumber B, andhe's not taking food off his
table, he's making sure that hecan cover the base so that I'm
not losing work when it'snecessary because he wasn't
available, you know.
So you can move quicker, you cando all those things.
(18:41):
But again, talking to the kindof residential and commercial
aspect, you know, I've alwayssaid, and it's funny because
here I've got to be so carefulwhat I if I don't have time like
this on a podcast to explainmyself, I've got to be careful
how it lands.
Because if I say I do commercialand residential, people are
like, Well, which one are yougood at?
You know?
Yeah.
But um, there's no doubt that aresidential mindset, mindset,
(19:01):
and kind of consideration of aclient adds value in commercial,
where commercial is just likebang, bang, bang, get it done.
But then in a residentialenvironment, when you can come
with a commercial mindset andyou're like, I'm actually
worrying about dollars andcents, I'm like looking at what
this thing costs, not sayingtake away from the sub, like you
want a guy to be able to fix aproblem because he can afford
to, because he made enough moneyin the job.
(19:22):
Yeah.
And so fair and reasonable.
But you do still need to haveprocess or process, should I
say, that is able to take youfrom residential to commercial
and and back, you know?
So um, we will specialize moreas time goes on, but where we
sit at the moment is that likehappy hybrid between the two.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Well, and I know some of the commercial stuff
you've done is more kind ofresidential style, where it's
it's more uh hands-on designer,you know, or it's like design
build-out, like design buildturn.
Tenant improvements, designbuild-out type stuff with that
that you which is morehomeowner-centric, more
residential style in terms ofselections and picking this out
(20:04):
and caring about colors.
SPEAKER_03 (20:06):
And that's probably close to how we got there, you
know.
It's like people were lookingalong the design line.
Yeah.
Um, and it's funny, it's like Iget to call international
design, you know.
But uh, is that what they'relike in South Africa?
Yeah.
Um, but it's like people wantedto bring their homes into their
office space.
Yeah.
And so we just naturally grewinto that space because we knew
how to do it well, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Well, and the beauty of it too is the reverse is like
commercial is 90%pre-construction work.
Like it's it's uh all planning.
That's all commercial is whichthat's where most residential
guys miss it is they say, I gota signature, get the get the
crew, let's get on site, andwe'll figure it out as we go.
And that's where you lose yourmoney, you lose your time, you
lose everything messes up whenyou don't plan.
(20:48):
And so that's that's you know,the way you run is very similar
to the way I coach in terms oflike we need to do the
residential front end likecommercial and the commercial
back end like residential.
I want my commercial to behandheld where it's it's very
service-oriented client, even ifI'm building a warehouse, like I
want it still ran the way towhere I can I can satisfy and
(21:09):
appease the customer on thecommercial side and where
they're impressed with theproject, not cool, it got done
on to the next.
And then on the residential, Iwant to have more commercial
front end where I want I want itplanned.
I want my pre-construction phaseto be where I spend 90% of my
time.
So when hammers start swinging,it's actually it's knocking
down, right?
And it's we know exactly whatwe're doing, no decisions, no
(21:30):
fire drills with the customer onweek seven about, hey, we gotta
do this, and what about this?
And have you picked out yourpaint colors?
And have you done like all ofthat stuff is where we get it
wrong and the residential sideis not planning for it.
So I think that's that's thatwas something that I noticed
when we were talking about howyou run your company.
It's like it's very um it's agood balance of the residential
commercial in terms of kind ofwriting that sweet spot between
(21:52):
the two.
SPEAKER_03 (21:53):
Absolutely.
And linked to that as you'resaying it, it's like you know,
I've thought about this before,I haven't thought about it for
long.
You know, the client,residential or not, comes in
wanting it to be commerciallyminded.
SPEAKER_04 (22:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
You know, whether they want to be in for Christmas
or they want to just get intotheir house, there's like
something in their mind thatlinks back to time and a
schedule, schedule, schedule.
Um you've then got um, you know,you've got the money aspect,
they are a little bit morerelaxed on how much they're
going to spend, but they want tobe in charge of the extra spend,
the part that you're in chargeof, and like that's something
(22:24):
that I'll take deep pride in.
You know, it's like the the theaspects that I can control
budget-wise.
Yeah, you know, we used to havelike a 1% overrun over like a
five-year period over like 50projects or whatever it was on
things we control, like brick,paint, you know, like the the
things that you had no say in asa client.
Um but then when it comes toprovisional sums and all of the
(22:46):
things that they get a say in,they want to be able to say, I
like that force it, but I wantthis one.
I don't get to say no to that.
I say, sure, of course you canhave it, unless it's gonna
affect the schedule or thequality or the, you know.
So if they're aware of thebudget increase, that's fine,
but they still commercially wantyou to be thinking about money.
SPEAKER_05 (23:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:03):
Um, whereas a lot of guys in residential, I find, get
into that space of like, well,it's residential, you know, it's
chilled, it's gonna be fine.
Like no one's really tooconcerned about it, except that
the client's uh specificinterest is all the commercials,
you know?
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's how they get pissedoff at the end and never never
use you again and neverrecommend you because you didn't
run it that way.
Sure.
Yeah.
So going back to your story, uhlanding here, getting started,
going from a sabbatical toliving here and and starting the
company.
What was kind of the pros andcons of that?
I mean, you it's almost a fullreset.
(23:39):
Like you're starting a newcompany even though you already
built a company.
Sure.
What what was tell me thatexperience?
SPEAKER_03 (23:44):
Sure.
So the the pros and cons arelike 10 years into business.
Um, and like this is notspecifically pros and cons, but
it's a fact, you know, 10 yearsinto business.
Um, I'm running this thing on myown by then.
Um things are looking good.
We teed up nicely.
It's 2019.
I've got like a got a contractfor 250 clinics, small, but like
250 clinics, they're about toroll out.
(24:07):
Um, and COVID happens,obviously.
And um, I sit in this spacewhere I've received some money
up front.
You know, I've taken depositsfrom clients, some of them
wanted to pay up front, and youknow, whatever.
I've got clients' money in theiraccount.
I've got terms set up with mysuppliers, and South Africa goes
into a lockdown.
The lockdown is that um, and forfor many good and bad reasons,
you know, like differentcircumstances, people live in
(24:29):
different ways there.
Um, construction was not anessential service.
Yeah.
And so I try to pivot or beagile, you know, all those all
the terms we knew were right.
SPEAKER_05 (24:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
Uh try to become like a maintenance business that
could run on my app, you know,like used a boardroom booking
system as a quick app fix.
Yeah.
I think I made like 585 Rand togive you context, it's like one
cent, I don't know, five cents,fifteen cents.
Um, in in three months.
You know, I literally couldn'tgive a design job away.
I was trying to give free designaway because I knew that if we
(24:59):
came back with things designed,we'd be able to get into
construction.
And uh so for three months wedidn't build anything, um, had
no earning, um, couldn't give ajob away.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
Yeah.
And so Well, and at thebeginning of COVID, it was like,
oh, we're just two weeks away.
We're we're a week uh one moreweek of everyone staying inside
and then we'll be good.
SPEAKER_03 (25:16):
I mean, man, people spoke about 18 months and I was
like, You're all lunatics.
Yeah, there's no way.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
There's no way.
They won't do that.
The government won't do it.
And so yeah, we were I mean, thewhat you just said is so funny.
It's like, well, let's just getthe designs going because we're
uh next month we'll we'll hit goon the construction and we'll be
good to go.
SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
Yeah, yeah.
And on the client side, they'relike, I can design it for free
and waste my time or be with mykids because I don't know when
I'm gonna come back.
I don't think so.
Anyway, we go through thatprocess.
Um, I run out of supplier termsbecause I pay as many people as
I can possibly pay.
Um, our working capital, all ofa sudden, I'm like, oh, that
wasn't what I thought it was.
Our cash flow is just no longerthe thing that it resembled, you
(25:53):
know.
Um, and so anyway, reset need tostart again.
And one of the things, you know,you've probably heard me say
this to you sometimes.
It's like we had a hundredreasons between the US and South
Africa, and there were like 51in favor of the US by the time
we decided.
It's not like, you know, itwasn't this grass greener story.
Yeah, one of the reasons was wehad to reset.
And if I'm going to start again,you know, in adverted commerce,
(26:16):
start again 20 years down theline, do I do it in Rand or
dollar?
And I was like, this makes abunch of sense.
So came over here, got torestart, um, whether I like it
or not.
Um, you know, uh I'll neveractually forget.
I remember talking to a businesscoach of mine, um, an
exceptional guy, um, really,really good, influence on my
life, really valuable, valuableresource.
(26:37):
Um, he says, you know, you'renot starting again, you're
taking a 20-year head start andthen starting.
He's like, think about 20 yearsago when you started, you really
knew nothing.
Yeah.
The fast track will be easier.
Yeah.
And he was mostly right.
But um, you know, you bring allthe lessons with you as you go,
and then you get to leave theones behind and you get to
choose again, you know.
So that was a worthwhileprocess, you know, go and cut
(27:00):
through it all, bring the secretsource, you know, like what are
the things that were worthbringing?
Um, you know, what are thecoffee stains that your business
had?
Like, what are the things thatyou just, you know, you got
known for that you're not goodat, that people forgave you for
because they liked you.
Yeah.
You know, it's like people wouldphone my phone because it was
grant, not necessarily becauseit was ground up and you know,
remove the coffee stain out ofyour business, the thing that
(27:21):
upsets people.
SPEAKER_05 (27:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:23):
Like I got to think about those things.
I got to process all of that andrun through the if I reset, what
do I leave behind?
Like, what are the mistakes thatI didn't even know that I knew
or had learned?
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Well, do you what did you find?
What what what were those?
What were your coffee stains?
What were the things that thatyou feel like you were able to
reset, kind of white uh whiteerasboard, get it, get it out of
here, get rid of that the way Ioperated, the way I did?
What were there any like give ussome of the details of those
lessons?
SPEAKER_03 (27:53):
Sure.
So um so the coffee stainconcept is you know, I'm sitting
in a in a learning, I used to bea member of a thing called
Entrepreneurs Organization, andone of the ladies that was in
that, one of the members thatwas in it was in it with us was
a uh coach.
Yeah and um she's doing thislearning day and she's talking
about coffee stains in yourbusiness.
And at first I'm like, hmm, thisis an interesting concept.
And then it's like, cool, sowhat are your coffee stains?
(28:14):
Yeah.
And I was like, wow, now we'regetting honest.
Like, uh, what's the thing aboutme and my business that I don't
like?
And I'm like, we are definitelyslow to quote, you know.
Someone's like, hey, can youcome put this proposal together?
I'm like, of course.
I'm there within like 30minutes.
I chat to you.
We're like, this is on.
I'm like on fire for it.
I'm excited for it.
Um, ADHD is probably kicking inat some point.
(28:35):
I'm like, this is all dopamine,you know?
And then you get back into therhythm of the things you've got
to get done.
And the next thing it's like aweek later, they're like, hey,
what's happening with thequotes?
And you're like, oh, I'm nearlythere.
SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
Like, oh no.
SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
I mean, you know, it hasn't left the mind, but you're
like, it's there.
Like after two weeks, you'relike, I can't believe another
week's gone.
But it's just, you know, how youprioritize that.
And where I got it wrong isthat, you know, no client of
mine now wants to hear this, butI'll say it anyway.
Like, I always took the approachof the person paying me today
gets all my attention, exceptthat that never protected my
(29:08):
business for the future becauseI was so stuck in the project I
was in because I felt I owed itto that client.
And it's not that you don't oweit to that client or that I
don't owe it to that client,it's that there's a definite
hybrid version somewhere inbetween where you can block out
time and you can go focus on thething.
So to answer the question, thecoffee stain was slow to quote.
Um, another one was um slow toget a final count out.
(29:31):
You know, the the process ofwrapping that all up at the end
was always so hard to do.
And I wrote off tons of moneyover the years in that exact
thing.
You know, by the time you cometo a client and you're like, hey
man, you owe us this money, andthey're looking at you, they're
like, Who are you again?
You know, like that's too long,you know.
So getting yourself billed tothe point that uh, you know,
you're sitting at punch uh orcall the snag um in in South
(29:55):
Africa and many other places,like probably everywhere except
the US.
Calls it the snag, the punch?
Snag meeting, you know, thepunch meeting, snag list.
Uh so there's one, yeah, youknow, first time uh someone
spoke about the punch list.
I was like, where are we going?
Uh someone's hitting me, what'sa punch?
Yeah, exactly.
So um, and every now and thenlike I'll drop the snag thing
and I see someone look at me andI immediately change to punch
(30:16):
and I don't admit that I gotanything wrong, you know.
But um, if you're leaving morethan your retainage out there,
that's your fault.
And it was my fault, you know.
And I um I had to own a lot ofthat.
Yeah.
If you start looking at it,you're like, wow, you know, I'm
so hard done by these people,didn't pay.
And then I'm like, they didn'tpay, and that's true, and it's
not okay.
But how much of this can I getto take ownership of?
(30:36):
So there's a lot of that kind ofthing where you stop and look at
it again.
Um, you know, the things youtake with you, you realize
quickly that as a contractor,like number one on the list of
things you should have to learnbefore you can be a GC is
financial management.
Like to not know where yournumbers are, to not know how
much money you have, to not knowwhat your your cash flow
(30:56):
conversion cycle looks like.
Like to think that this client'smoney because it's deposited in
your bank is your money, is justyou know, and no one's trying to
do that.
Yeah, but if you don't have agreat base and understanding of
it, it's just so easy to fallinto that trap.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
It's it's a the problem, and I mean what makes
construction different thanalmost any other other thing is
that the way you start thecompany is not the way you can
grow a company, right?
You always fall back.
Like when I'm running a job bymyself when I was starting my
company, like I've I go out anddo the work, I find a job, I get
(31:32):
money, and I'm on that job.
So all of those processes, allthe financial management, all
that's in my head, because I'mon one job and it's easy to know
it.
And okay, all the money in thisaccount, I gotta spend this, and
I gotta spend this.
So I got two grand left in itthat I can take out myself.
Great, done.
You can't scale that way though.
And the problem is guys do itthat way.
They start working that way, andit makes sense for them that
(31:54):
way, and that's just thefoundation that they built.
And then you start adding morejobs and more jobs and more
jobs.
You they start hiring projectmanagers, which are really
glorified assistants.
And those guys are now supposedto run it, but they don't have
the same mechanics in theirbrain that you do.
And so your assistant who is nowrunning projects for you isn't
looking at the dollars thatyou're looking at.
(32:15):
They're just saying, money in,money out, good, I'm good to go.
And those companies crashbecause there's no financial
management, there's noknowledge, there's no controls
as the owner to run, but youdon't realize that until you're
too late.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
And so that's that's that's one of my, you know, I
love the coffee stain concept.
I'm stealing that from you, FYI,but uh you'll we'll probably
talk about it on the retreat,and you're gonna be on the
retreat too.
So that's perfect.
Uh, I might have you lead thatsession when we talk about that.
But that being said, like Ithink that's part of it too of
all of those coffee stains thatpeople have that that that their
(32:49):
companies are known for, that'skind of left behind when they're
done.
No one purposefully sets thatup.
Like that's not a choice.
That's not a, hey, you knowwhat?
I'm just not gonna get back topeople on estimates.
No, you just don't have a goodprocess in the front end.
Absolutely.
And so figuring out those, and Ithink that's the beauty of our
coaching, is let us show you howcoffee stains are made and let's
avoid those from the foundation.
(33:11):
So let's build on a reallywell-laid foundation as opposed
to let's build a big, now let'sgo back, tear out your
foundation, and rebuild thefoundation underneath the house
that you've built.
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
You can't, right?
And so that I love that that uhthat concept, the the coffee
sane where you can kind of lookback at it because it's like
that's that's that's where youget stuck, where you get known
for, and what ends up endingyour company or really
preventing your growth.
Because it's like, I like Grant,Grant's a good dude.
I'm always gonna have Grant domy my my renovations that I
(33:42):
need.
I'm not gonna tell my neighborsabout Grant because I don't want
them to have to deal with whatI've dealt with, but I'm fine
with dealing with it.
Yeah.
Right.
I think the the one of the worstthings you can be in
construction is a good company,not a great company.
Because the uh a goodconstruction company is a
company that is good at givingyou the product.
I'm a my kitchens are the mostbeautiful kitchens.
(34:04):
You're not gonna get anotherperson put a kitchen in better.
Uh it was hard to get numbersfrom me, it was hard to
communicate.
You never knew when my guys aregonna be there.
All of throughout the process,you didn't know what was going
on as my customer.
No matter how good my kitchenis, I'm it's a good, it's a
great kitchen, but you're notgonna refer me to anybody.
I got no word of mouth comingbecause you're like, yeah, I'll
(34:26):
deal with him, but I'm not gonnahave my mom deal with him.
I'm not gonna have my neighbordeal with him.
And so I think being a reallygood company like that, but with
no processes in place is kind ofthe purgatory that companies get
into where it's like, I've hit aceiling, I can't grow, I can't
do anything else with my companybecause I'm just I don't
understand why, but I'm workingharder, making less than I did
(34:47):
last year.
And I'm working more and I'mhunting this, and I can't seem
to get clients, and I can't, andit's like, well, that's because
we've we've got the stain,right?
We've got the this this coffeestain on your company and the
foundation's built wrong.
Yeah, and so we got to teareverything down to redo that
foundation and build it upagain.
And do you have the heart andthe gut to go through that,
(35:08):
right?
And I think that's the hard partwith companies.
A bad company goes out ofbusiness pretty quickly.
A good company stays in businessfor 20 years and doesn't grow.
And that's that's what I'mtrying to avoid with when I'm
coaching guys, is like, I wantyou to be a great company.
I want you to be a company thatgrows strategically.
We know where your dollars are.
And one of one of the big thingswith that is like most guys in
(35:29):
our industry, when I get there,I'll start doing that.
I'll start my QuickBooks when Iget to this level, when I start
going beyond two jobs at a time.
The problem is you're nevergonna get there until you build
a foundation to get there on.
Sure.
And it's like you you you haveto act like a big company before
you become a big company.
100%.
You can't just start as a big,good comp great company.
(35:50):
It's like, no, you gotta actlike that before you are, have
your processes in place.
So when you start going, justgas on the fire and it's
growing.
SPEAKER_03 (35:57):
That concept of having a, you know, doing big
business and small business hasthat really, really helped.
And like going back a little bitto what I could bring with me,
you know, the South African wayis um at the biggest, my company
had 60 people in it.
Yeah.
Um, a lot of that is site staffand guys that are kind of on the
ground doing the doing thelabor.
Sure.
But because the economy of whatthat is is that you can afford
(36:20):
more people, um, but you thenhave to go and hunt for work to
make sure there's somewhere forthose guys to go.
Yeah.
But the background of it is thatyou just have different things
to focus on.
And so there's always someonenew coming in, there's always
change, um, and having aplaybook that you can get back
to goes a long way.
Yeah.
But um the the the piece you'resaying there about like big
business and small business, youknow, I ran a bigger business,
(36:41):
and so I bring those lessonswith me when I start now.
Yeah, I've always believed it.
Um, but I'll also say, you know,you can go the you can go the
route of building this bigbusiness and you can also still
get it wrong.
And linked to that is, you know,I thought I was gonna scale this
business and turn into this mostscalable thing, but I forgot to
take profit out along the way.
Um, and that's such an easy trapto fall into as well.
(37:02):
I'm reinvesting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
I'm just gonna reinvest.
SPEAKER_03 (37:05):
You typically you put everything back in, it's
probably into a bit of dirt,it's into some real estate, it's
those sorts of things.
But the truth is that thosethose markets change as well,
and so you know, be cautioned asto where you put them.
But um, that concept of I'mgonna take every cent the
business makes, every dollargoes back into the business, you
know, you get to the end of it.
(37:25):
If things do turn, if things dogo wrong, if there's another
COVID event and you stop andlook, you're like, oh wow, you
know, everything was in thereand then it got decided for me,
you know.
So being able to take thatproject money out in projects as
you go along the way issomething that I would, you
know, I'll never make thatmistake again.
Yeah.
And um, anyone that ever asksme, I'll go out of my way to try
and help them with that.
And that's not to say don'tscale, and it's not to say don't
(37:48):
um prepare for the future.
It's just like don't grow fasterthan you have to.
SPEAKER_04 (37:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:53):
Don't like get to when you need QuickBooks and
then decide you do.
Have that in place and runningbecause that's low cost to be
prepared and running well.
Yeah.
But you don't need 30 staff toopen your doors.
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Yeah, don't go hire an office manager and a product
day one.
Like that.
Yeah.
It's kind of the the thought oflike, I'm trying to get to the
horizon.
And if I have no plan and I'venever been to the horizon
before, like most guys startingcompanies, they're just
wandering through the woods andyou're going left and going
right and kind of goingopportunistic, right?
(38:25):
Uh I got this, and so now I'mgonna try a commercial job and
now I'm gonna do investmentproperties.
I might flip one myself and I'mgonna do.
And it's like they're wanderingthrough the woods with no game
plan and path.
And I think that's the one, youknow, with you restarting in in
the US, you've been to thehorizon in South Africa.
And so you kind of understand,oh, this is a better way to walk
(38:46):
that path.
I think that's what coachingdoes for guys, too, is like on
on my side, I'm like, listen,I've gotten to the horizon and
and I've I've made every wrongturn on the way there.
Let me show you kind of the pathand let's walk through that.
Let me be a guide on that path.
I'm not gonna, I'm not walkingit for you, but I'll guide you
down it.
And so I think that's that'skind of the the big like if we
build it with a goal of whatthat horizon feels like to where
(39:10):
the structure now works when weduplicate to that size, then
it's a very smooth and easypath.
Uh and it's not a wondering andmaking the wrong decision.
You're gonna find the horizon.
We we all have, and we've allmade the hard decisions to get
there.
Not all, but like like with whatyou did and what I've done, like
I I took the worst path.
I I took a I I mean, I've got uhI've got loans that I took out
(39:36):
over 10 years ago that I'malmost done paying back.
Right?
Stuff like that to where it'slike uh you know, the the oh, if
we just have more money, let'sget it, let's go, let's let's
run and let's borrow half amillion and and run after this,
and we can hire these people anddo and it's like what are you
doing?
Like that, like I I just wish Icould shake Clark of 2010, 20
and 2008.
SPEAKER_03 (39:56):
Well, the interesting thing is that the
horizon, and I'm sure you didthis intentionally, it's a thing
in the distance, it's not likean exact place.
Yep, right.
And so no matter what thehorizon is, we each have one.
Yeah.
So even the guy that failed,he's got a horizon that he got
to.
And if he tells that story back,and this is where coaching is
just so valuable, it's like I'vehit the horizon of whatever mine
(40:16):
was.
Now I get to tell you the storyof how to get there fast.
And like I reflect on this asyou speak.
You know, it took me 20 years toget to a point that we landed up
in America.
Yeah, um, took me 20 years toget to a point of whatever my
horizon was, and now I've set upagain in re realistically, it's
it'll be two years at the end ofthis year that this company has
been in existence, and we willbe 80% of the way to where we
(40:40):
were.
Um with the 20 years.
Yeah, exactly.
So two in two and twenty kind ofthing to do a similar kind of uh
kind of uh distance in in how toset up well, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
So that's it's like you're you're kind of selling my
coaching stuff, but my my mywhat I always say to guys, like,
I'm not a guru, like I'm I'mnot, I don't know more than you.
You can figure this out in thenext eight to twelve years and
get there.
Like, let's just expedite thatdown to 18 months and let me
help you kind of sure navigatethat path.
Like, let's let's get thatfoundation set up and let's get
(41:13):
you there so a you don't have tohave those six-figure bad
decision mistakes that I that Ihad to make.
But but B, like, let's expediteit and then you're successful in
18 months, not eight years fromnow.
And that's let's avoid the thepitfalls and the traps that you
fall into that you don't realizewhere the road looks like I
should go left, but in reality,let me tell you the reasons we
got to go right because of this,this, and this, it's smarter to
(41:34):
go right on this decision.
So yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
Also, I mean you you know, coaching, you're probably
more directional.
You're gonna tell people this ishow I've seen it, but at the
same time, it's an experienceshare.
You know, it's like this is thisis what I did and how I did it.
And the person who's on theother side's either gonna do it
or not.
Yeah, they're gonna listen toyou and they're gonna think
about which way they want to go.
Yep.
Um, I just know what didn't workfor me, or at least I know what
worked for me for a while.
(41:57):
Yep.
And sometimes I was too slow torealize that it had changed.
SPEAKER_05 (42:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Um, and that in itself is a whole story.
It's like, you know, it'schanging in front of you.
You are so used to a certainway, um, instead of stopping and
checking in every now and then,you know, like once a quarter,
stop and pay attention to thething that changed in your
business.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
Zoom out a 30,000-foot view and look at it
actually.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:18):
And like, am I still the right guy to run this
business?
You know, am I still the perfectperson to be the CEO, the
president?
Yeah.
If you started it, the chancesare it's probably no.
If it's a business.
Um, but it doesn't mean it'salways the case and doesn't mean
you'll do a terrible job.
It just means like, you know, Ilove starting businesses
personally, like me as Grant.
Like, I love startingbusinesses.
(42:38):
Do I love running themindefinitely the same way every
day for the rest of my life?
I'm like, nah, not really, notso much.
And that's where projects areare joyful.
You know, project starts, itends, you get to see the thing
you built.
It's like that feels good, it'samazing, it's great.
You're sharing that with thecustomer.
Um, and then you get to go do itall over again, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Yeah, I I think that's great.
Well, well, I appreciate youcoming on, man.
This has been great.
I mean uh if if you are comingon the retreat, Grant should be
on the retreat.
It looks like I think he'scoming on it with us.
So you can meet him there.
Um, but yeah, it's it's been umit's been fun.
Glad to have you.
We'll probably have you back atsome point to talk about some
more specific topics.
SPEAKER_03 (43:17):
Now that people know what my accent sounds like and
what I'm actually saying.
SPEAKER_00 (43:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, watch this be a fakeaccent.
You show up.
People talk to you, it's notreal, but he's from New Jersey,
actually.
So South Georgia.
Yeah.
Cool, man.
Well, good to meet you.
Meet you.
Good to talk with you.
Thanks for being on the podcast,and uh, we'll see you guys next
week.
Cool.
Thank you.
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