January 31, 2020 • 34 mins
Dr. U-Wen Low is a lecturer at Alphacrucis College teaching in the Undergraduate and Masters programs. Today, we discuss with U-Wen about hermeneutics which is how to read and interpret the bible. Hermeneutics is important for every believer to understand when reading the, occasionally very confusing, Old and New Testament.
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Episode Transcript
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U-Wen (00:00):
We've done ourselves a little bit of a disservice in
that you can do a Google searchfor stuff that suits what you
want and you can build, you canbuild a theology first and then
come to the Bible second wherehistorically it's always been
the other way around
James (00:14):
from the city life church.
I'm James Wright.
This is contrast theory.
Today we're here again with youand lo, uh, the PhD, the man,
the myth, the legend.
And today we're going to talkabout hermeneutics,
hermeneutics, everyone'sfavourite big word.
(00:36):
Let's just start with thebasics.
For those who may not know, whatis hermeneutics?
Okay.
U-Wen (00:41):
Really good question.
And it's, it's actually a prettyinteresting one.
Um, part of the problem is that,you know, yeah, everyone sort of
throws this word around anddoesn't really know what it
means.
If we really hone it down to itsessential, I mean, you'd exceeds
interpretation, right?
How we, how we approached theBible.
But the problem is it's actuallya little bit more than that.
(01:01):
I think it, nowadays it's sortof become, when we talk about
it, it's more of a, a framework.
I guess a methodology of readingthe Bible.
So for example, I could say thatyou, you approach the Bible with
a hermeneutic of suspicion,which means that you don't take
it, you know, all of its truthclaims seriously and that you
(01:22):
are suspicious about what'sgoing on.
Um, some scholars talk abouthaving a home and unique a
faith, which means that you cometo the Bible with an inherent
assumption that God is real Holyspirit, et cetera, et cetera.
So, you know, it's a bit morethan just how you read the
Bible.
There's different, I guess,layers and elements to it as
well.
Nowadays we have things like,um, you know, in one of the big
(01:44):
areas that I work in at themoment is Asian hermeneutics,
which is how people in Asia whoread the Bible and interpret
different stories according to,you know, Asian cultural
traditions, um,responsibilities, et cetera, and
what elements they draw out ofthe story a little bit
differently.
So comparative and culturalhermeneutics is quite a thing at
(02:05):
the moment.
So, yeah, long story short formost of us, how many it is, it's
just the way we approached thetext and read it.
Um, you know, and the, thelenses that we bring to it, the
frameworks we have around it,but there's a whole lot of, um,
a whole lot going on behind thatas well.
James (02:21):
Do you think there could be problems with a cultural
hermeneutics like in terms ofmisinterpreting maybe exactly
what the original meaning was?
U-Wen (02:29):
It's a fascinating sort of discussion we're having in
the Academy at the momentbecause cultural hermeneutics
are important, right?
We're, we're in a postmodernworld where everyone's opinion
matters and everyone'sperspective matters.
And what we've actually found isthat cultural hermeneutics in a
lot of the sensors don't, theydon't apply the same critical
(02:50):
lenses that most scholars wouldoff the Bible.
So like, you know, we're notasking much about the context,
we're not asking much abouthistory and so on.
What we're doing with culturalhermeneutics is we're just
bringing, reading the story juststraight up, here's the
narrative, read it.
What does that mean for you inyour culture or your context?
(03:10):
And what we found is that itactually brings out, for those
of us who've grown up in, youknow, a Western civilization now
, whatever that means nowadays,but like say you've grown up in
Australia your whole life, um,you know, middle-class, you hear
someone from Latin America,right?
Talk about poverty and how theytherefore, um, read and
(03:30):
understand certain stories inthe Bible.
And what I think it does is itactually enriches our
understanding of the Bible.
They, there's no, there's noreal idea of, I guess some
objective truth being applied to, um, cultural hermeneutics.
It's just this is my perspectiveon the text and, you know, this
(03:51):
is what I get out of it.
And to be honest, we all do itanyway.
You know, we have a Pentecostalhome in Munich for a lot of
Pentecostals.
Um, there's definitely aprosperity hermeneutic, which
we, you know, which we know wellabout and everyone has their own
thing that they apply to it.
So I guess the argument is w,you know, is anyone reading the
Bible correctly in that sense?
(04:11):
You know, you kinda, you kind ofhave to flip the question on its
head.
Well, I both to answer thatquestion, do you think anyone is
reading the Bible correctly?
Uh, and that's a really, reallyloaded question, isn't it?
Like how can you read the Biblecorrectly?
Um, you know, it was writtensuch a long time ago for people
in a different place to where weare.
(04:31):
Um, different culturalassumptions, different
everything.
Um, I think what we can do is doour best to try and understand
and give it a fair reading.
I guess this is perhaps the bestway to put it.
So, you know, and most peopledon't.
And that's because it takes alifetime of training.
Like, you know, I like I'm, youknow, I grew up in, well mostly
(04:54):
in Australia.
Um, I grew up, I spent 10 yearsof my life in Asia.
So I think a little bit like anAustralian and a little bit like
an Asian person, but I'm notgoing into Africa, you know, and
learning how to think like anAfrican person or I'm not going
into Europe and learning how tothink like a European it unless
I stay there and spend alifetime there.
So, you know, unless you'reimmersed in the texts for a
(05:17):
lifetime or you know, a goodamount of time, you can't really
think like that, if that makessense.
So yeah, it's very frustratingbecause as Christians we want to
have something concrete,something objective that we can
all say, well this is truth,right?
But the fact of the matter is,truth is sometimes a little bit
(05:40):
subjective and it really dependson where you sit sometimes, not
always.
Could you give an example ofmaybe what truth may be
subjective and maybe which onesaren't?
Or now you're testing, I meanlike even just the way we put,
we have pushed and read the texttries to bring it back to human
use.
So, um, let's say tattoos.
(06:01):
Okay.
You know, for, for many years alot of conservative evangelical
Christians, Pentecostalsincluded, were really against
the idea of having tattoos.
Now let's take a step back.
Let's go to a con, uh, a culturethat has accepted tattoos and in
fact, you know, has informed animportant part of their cultural
identity.
(06:21):
Uh, like say the Maori people, Idon't know much about them, so I
don't want to speak too much tothem, but just using them as an
example, you know, and they go,okay, well, you know, does the
Bible say tattoos a bed?
Well, some texts too, but whenyou look at them in context,
they'd talk a bit more aboutthings like slavery and, and,
you know, indentured sort oflabor to a particular God being
(06:43):
dedicated to a God.
On the other hand, if you lookin revelation, revelation
chapter 19, when there's a rideron the white horse who most
commentators believe is Jesus,he comes with a sharp sword out
of his mouth.
He actually has his nametattooed on his, on his thigh.
So the, and there's a V that's avery clear, I think sign about
identity as well.
(07:04):
So you can really, you know, inthat sense, you know, you might
come from a tradition wheretattoos are bad and tattoos
being slavery.
Like, you know, I can understandlike if you, um, if you're sort
of post-Holocaust and you know,in one of the X men movies, I
think Magneto is like, I'venever, you know, I have the only
tattoo I have it.
(07:24):
And he got his sort of Ashnumber and I can understand why
tattoos might be bad coming outof that culture.
But on the other hand you've gotanother culture which says it's
okay and you can kind of readthe Bible either way.
So there really isn't anobjective truth in that sense.
I guess that they are obviouslyobjective tubes.
And that comes down to, I guessthings like morality and you
(07:45):
know, um, our frameworks ofjustice and law and order and
stuff like that.
But even then, there's alwaysvariation between cultures.
James (07:54):
Hmm.
Well, I mean, I guess you couldinclude in the other Orthodox
Christian beliefs, the divinityof Jesus, the a theology of the
Trinity, stuff like that.
So as someone who teaches andworks in a Bible college, why do
you think it is important tounderstand hermeneutics and, and
not just read the Bible?
U-Wen (08:14):
Yeah.
Um, look, reading the Bible isimportant.
Like let, let's not kidourselves that people can and do
get revelation from the Biblejust by reading it.
And that's, you know, that'sbeen I think legitimate for as
long as the Bible has beenaround.
You don't have the new Testamentwriters do it as well.
They reread the old Testamentscript kids and they draw new
(08:36):
understandings about it, thatpoint to Jesus.
So you know, in some cases youkind of, if you point the finger
at anyone, you've got to pointthe finger at them as well.
Having said that, part of thefact is like, like we've just
kind of discussed, you know,it's a, the new Testament and
the old Testament are bothcultural documents.
They're the historical artifactsI guess in a sense.
(08:58):
Like they've got a whole micromacro cause and where a whole
ecosystem of, um, I guesscultural understandings and
assumptions, language, all ofthese things attached to them
and their background and youknow, their, their product of a
particular place in a particulartime.
And if you don't understand thatplace in that time, you might
(09:22):
not understand, um, the nuancesor what the text is really
saying because, you know, thingsmight mean something completely
different today.
Um, you know, um, you know,people say, uh, literally right
and literally means, well, thisis exactly what happened.
But people also use literally tomean figuratively, like, Oh my
(09:42):
gosh, that was literally, youknow, the most amazing thing
I've ever seen.
Right?
But language is weird because itworks that way.
And you know, now dictionariesare starting to recognize that
you literally can meanfiguratively, which is a bit
nonsensical when you think aboutit, right?
But that's kind of the point.
So what happens when you've gotwords like that in the Bible or
(10:06):
situations like that in theBible where these things happen,
you know, or how do you explainparticular things like, um, you
know, nowadays we got, Oh,slavery's bad.
Everyone knows that slavery wasbad, but in those times it was
just natural light.
It was a way of life.
It was okay, yeah, I'm a slave,but it could be worse, it could
be dead.
So, you know, everything isvery, very contextual in that
(10:28):
sense.
So it's important for us tobring at least some
understanding of that context,which helps us to understand
particular passages a little bitbetter.
So after learning about, youknow, weed, we should be looking
into context, historical,cultural context, what is proof?
Texting?
Okay.
Really good question.
And proof.
Texting is something that occursquite a lot.
(10:50):
We all do it and it's, it's abad habit.
And basically proof texting iswhen you take a text out of
context in order to prove aparticular point that you're
trying to make.
A classic one might be.
Um, we, we say, okay, um, theBible is divinely inspired.
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
No one's got any problems withthat.
(11:10):
Um, I, that in first Timothy[inaudible] and people will take
the verse out of first Timothyand that verse says, come on
with the rest of it.
It says exactly, but it's, it'sgotta be useful for teaching,
rebuking, et cetera, et cetera.
Right?
And people go, Oh, well,clearly, therefore the whole
Bible, um, these criteriaapplied to the whole Bible.
Well, that's a proof textbecause what that does is it
(11:31):
doesn't recognize the fact thatthe new Testament hadn't been
compiled when that was written.
You know, Paul's not, I mean,can you imagine how arrogant you
have to be to sit there andthink, I'm writing scripture,
you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, everything I writeis God breathe.
That's right.
You know, and Paul's definitelynot that kind of person.
You know, if you read his stuff,he's, he definitely does.
It doesn't think of himself inthat way.
(11:51):
So that's a very clear, veryobvious example of a proof text.
Um, you know, we, we, we see itall the time in, uh, and you
know, coming back to the likesomething like prosperity
theology.
Um, people use proof texts allthe time and they'll say things
like, um, you know, they'll drawthe do to anomic framework of
blessings and curses, butthey'll leave out all the
(12:12):
curses, right?
There'll be like, Oh, blessedare you when this, this is this
and God will reward you athousand fold and blah, blah
blah button.
They forget on the back theother half of that incident,
everything.
Jeremiah 29 11, I know the plansI have for you says the Lord
plans to prosper you and not toharm you.
Well, you can't just take thatand drop that into your life and
go, well this is for me causeit's written for a group of
(12:33):
people who are in exile.
Cool.
Wondering like, you know, whatdo we do now?
We're, we've literally beentaken into a foreign country in
captivity with no hope for thefuture.
Do we, do we start, I guess,living our lives in this foreign
country?
Or do we patiently wait for Godto bring us back out?
And this Jeremiah example is atext of written to give them
(12:54):
hope and to let them know,actually it's okay for you to
have a life outside of yourgrief and your trauma.
Um, but we kind of take that andgo, Hey, look, everything's
going to work.
You know, everything's coming upMillhouse bluff.
I've seen people, uh, you know,want a new Lexus or something
like that and then go, ah, butthe Lord says for, I knew the
plans I have for you.
(13:15):
And you know, they use a as ifGod's plans are for you to just
prosper financially andmaterially and well, that's
fine.
And, and you know, when you,it's very different comparing
prosperity for someone who hasbeen taken into exile with all
this, all this stuff kind of,you know, but, and being taken
into a foreign country andthey're not sure if it's African
(13:36):
owned.
Well that site, they're not sureif they ever going to get back
to where they belong orwhatever, you know, um, versus
someone who, um, yeah.
Has, has, you know, already gottwo cars and, and wants a third
one.
Well, actually I'd just like to,I'd like to list a car, a couple
of my favorites people take outof context and you give me your
feedback.
Uh, Philippians four verse 13, Ican do all things through Christ
(13:59):
who strengthens me.
Now, um, I haven't looked tooclosely into that one recently,
but from memory, you know,that's, well that means you can
run a marathon with nopreparation, doesn't it?
You know, I can, I can get upand preach with no preparation.
I can lift 12 buses with onefinger.
That's right.
You know, leap tall buildingswith a single bed.
Um, I mean, and, and what isPaul writing about here?
(14:21):
And you know, again, I haven'tlooked at the, the, the verse
too closely in, in, in a littlewhile, but from memory, Paul's
just talking about the trialshe's been through and these
horrible sufferings that he'sgone through in service of the
gospel.
And he's saying, you know what,I don't care what the world
throws at me.
I'm still going to faithfullyserve God.
That's the context of the firstway I can do all things through
(14:43):
Christ who strengthens me.
And it's a, it's a verydifferent take on it, I guess in
that sense, isn't it?
When you look at it from thatperspective.
Yeah, totally.
Now I've got one written
James (14:52):
down, but I'd like to just make sure I get right there
.
We'll always use the King Jamesversion, right?
Oh, some reason they always usethe King James version.
So Proverbs 23 verse seven, foras he thinketh in his heart, so
is he, and it's always referringto there was Adonai, they're
always referring to, if youdon't think about you being rich
and God giving you blessings,obviously they're not going to
(15:14):
manifest, you know, cause theythink a third in your heart.
So easy you,
U-Wen (15:19):
it's amazing how much, um, you know, some of this
prosperity theology is like thesecret, isn't it?
James (15:23):
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
So universal granted to youtoday.
Well, and that's exactly right.
And I think as you said in theprevious podcast, shout out to
those who thought this episodewas going to be about
revelation.
That'll be the next one.
I swear we'll get there.
Um, you, you mentioned about how, um, you know, every, every,
there's nothing new under thesun.
Everything is pretty much just arepackage of something else.
(15:45):
Now if you read this verse incontext, in a modern
translation, like for example,the NIV, the entire thing from
the six to seven says, do noteat food.
Have a blue grudging host.
Do not crave his delicacies for,he's the kind of person who was
always thinking about the cost,eat and drink.
He says to you, but his heart isnot with you.
U-Wen (16:05):
That's a classic proof text, isn't it?
Really?
I mean, you know, you, it's veryeasy to, and this is where I
think in, in the age of thecomputer and the internet, we've
done ourselves a little bit of adisservice in that you can
Google do a Google search forstuff that suits what you want
and you can build, you can builda theology first and then come
(16:29):
to the Bible second wherehistorically it's always been
the other way around.
Right.
You know, Martin Luther, um, youknow, the reformers, all of
these guys, you know, they, theyread the Bible first, realized
something's wrong, and then theygo, ah, Hmm.
Like, you know, there'ssomething wrong with this
theology that we're, we're,we're in at the moment.
How do we rectify it?
James (16:47):
Yeah.
W what'd you call that?
Like a solar script aura.
Like, you know, the Bible alone.
U-Wen (16:51):
I mean, yeah, that, that's one of the obviously sort
of the, the, the, the rallyingcries of, of the reformers,
isn't it?
You know, that everything theydo is based on scripture.
I think.
I think we have to be a bit more, um, complex than that because
the world is a bit more complexthan that.
Um, I, I like to use the, um,Wesleyan quadrilateral as a good
way of informing, you know, kindof ideas.
So, um, would you like toquickly explain what that is?
(17:14):
Um, yes.
So the Wesleyan quadrilateral isessentially a, a four, four
framework, a four pronged, aframework that allows you to
examine things, right?
And the four prongs are, um,scripture reason, experience and
tradition and what that, whenyou look at things with that
framework, it doesn't solveanything, but it gives you a
(17:36):
good way of thinking aboutproblems.
And so you have to, I think it'shelpful to weigh up all four of
these elements when we, when wethink about things.
And the same for theology, like,you know,[inaudible] let's take
on prosperity theology once.
Okay.
Um, scripture, what does he say?
Well, yes, there is a theologyof prosperity in the Bible.
There's also theology ofsuffering.
(17:57):
There's also a theology ofcurses, um, of, of, you know,
giving all you have to the poorand, and you know, social
justice.
So you have to balance that.
Um, you know, reason.
Um, is it reasonable to expectthat God will bless me a, an
affluent middle class personliving in a Western world, you
know, the top 5% of, um,affluent people in the world to
(18:19):
to give me even more, you know,um, tradition, you know, has
God, well, I mean, I guess insome senses you could make that
argument because we are alreadyblessed.
But when you take a deeper lookat things like economics and how
they work, well, it's easy forthe affluent to keep, keep
getting money and keep becomingmore affluent and you know,
experience.
You know, what, what has Goddone for me in the past?
(18:42):
Now I can see why people mightuse this framework and land in
the wrong place.
It's possible.
Um, the problem with today is Ican look up, I can just Google
write Bible verses aboutrichness, right?
And some very helpful, very kindperson has gone and categorize
them all for me.
And I can do that with a Googlesearch.
But the problem is that you canbuild a theology of anything out
(19:05):
of that and all you're doing ispoof texting.
You're not doing what theancients would have done, which
is reading the whole verse, youknow, the whole captive,
probably the whole book of theBible in one sitting, the Bible
is big enough to come to anyconclusion that you would like.
Well, yeah, that's fine.
That's a really, that's a reallyhelpful aphorism to have.
You know, you can, you can makeit argue anything.
You could argue for aliens forgoodness sakes, right?
(19:26):
If you want it out of the Bible.
Um, but that's, that's whathappens when you pick bits and
pieces out of the Bible.
Whereas if you take the Bibleholistically and come to it book
by book, you know, um, clap bychapter even.
Uh, although argue book by bookis more helpful.
You get a, a Buddhist sense of,you know, what we call the grand
(19:46):
master narrative, right?
This idea that there is a storythat there is a border idea that
underpins the Bible that leavesus in a particular direction.
So I think that's something thatwe all have to take in mind as
well.
There's this idea of what hasGod been doing?
What is his plan for humanitybroadly speaking, and where is
it going?
And then, you know, look at whatwe do and go, does it actually
(20:07):
fit in with that?
So does it fit in for me to havetwo Lexuses while Alexa, while
while people, well, people stopin, in another country?
Well, I personally, I wouldn'tbe able to do that, but you
know, that that's me.
You know, someone else mightcome to a different conclusion.
Hmm.
How do you feel like there's aextremely successful, uh,
preachers who own a lot ofthings, you know, planes,
(20:33):
humongous houses.
Yeah.
How do you think they come tokind of justify that?
I don't know, because I'm notrich and I never plan on being
rich.
I never want to be rich.
Well, Lord, if you'd like totest me, yeah, that's fine.
Well, I mean, look, there'snothing wrong with being rich.
I don't think God is going tosort of have this tele when you
get to heaven, right?
Of of, you know, how much moneydid you have?
(20:56):
I think what God is interestedin is how you use what's given
to you.
So again, you know that, that'swhere we have to kind of find
different frameworks to weigh itup and ask the question, you
know, do, are they genuinelydoing what's right and what's
good in the eyes of the Lord?
And the trouble with being aChristian or being a religious
person in general is thatthere's a point where you have
(21:18):
to take a leap of faith fightand you don't know.
You have to just say at the endof the day, I don't know.
Only God can judge, which isvery, very frustrating obviously
for a lot of us.
Um, but what, what I would sayis, look, you know, I think
broadly speaking, we do see alot of, a lot of, um, teaching
on wealth and money throughout,especially in the gospels and,
(21:41):
and what you do with it.
If you look at sort of the, theHebrew Bible, the old Testament
as a, as a continuum, there isvery, very clearly a vision for
every person, which is to beable to have, um, essentially
have a field of their own, um,in which they can have risen
livestock and grow some crops.
(22:03):
And I think what we see through,if you read the Hebrew Bible,
the old Testament carefully, isthat is I guess the kind of
holistic postural kind of visionfor all people that every
person, every homestead, I guessis able to support themselves
off off the land.
And that's all that God everreally wants for his people in
(22:25):
some senses, you know, to behappy, to be able to, to prosper
in the sense that they are notwanting anything for anything,
um, and that they're able tofeed themselves.
Now gradually, as the newTestament is written, we shift
to a slightly more urban vision.
Right?
Um, and in that sense, we have,I think, a bit more of an
extreme demarcation between richand poor.
(22:49):
And, and so that's where wereally see a bit more of this
idea of social justice.
And I mean, it's clearly therein the Hebrew Bible as well, but
I think we see a bit more of astronger emphasis on it in the
new Testament because that's, itmatters a lot more.
It's a lot more crucial, a lotmore relevant.
So you have, you know, earlyChristians selling all they have
and living in community and, youknow, picking up orphans off the
(23:10):
street and, and, and, you know,helping the poor and so on and
so forth.
And at the end in revelation,what we get is this great vision
of a city where everyone livesin the city and all their needs
are provided for.
Um, stay tuned for the nextpodcast of revelation where we
can truly discuss thesequestions.
Um, but you know, um, yeah, atthe end of the day, I think a
(23:32):
lot of what life looks like forGod's people is essentially
self-sufficiency as a community.
It's really as simple as that.
And one story that all thelecturers, teachers, whatever,
come to is the story of[inaudible] vineyard, right?
It's, it's kind of like thearchetypal story of what a bad
(23:54):
King does in, um, in Hebrewthought.
Um, that's in first Kings kept a21.
So if you're interested in goingand have a read of it, I'll,
I'll sum it up very quickly.
In essence, you've got kingaehas and his wife Isabelle,
right?
And everyone knows the name ofdecibel because you know, she
ends up doing some pretty poorthings.
So this is one of those things,right?
(24:14):
Um, Ahab wants to get thisvineyard for himself, um, from
neighbor.
A neighbor refuses to sell it tohim because it says, um,
ancestral property.
Okay, yeah, fine, no worries.
Um, and that should have beenthe end of it, but they have
really wants it.
And Jessebelle says to them, Oh,well, you know, you're the King
sorted out essentially.
(24:34):
Um, and so he gets a couple ofpeople to, um, basically falsely
accused and a boss of particularthings and then they both is
killed as a result.
And so Ahab comes in and hetakes the land.
Now the prophet Elisha hearsabout this and, um, you know,
basically curses I have, andit's a very, very clear
indicator that you should neveruse your wealth or your power to
(24:58):
abuse others in order to gainmore wealth and power and mean,
you know, have a read of it andhave a read of what Elisha says.
It's a very clear, verycondemnatory.
And, and you know, I had been,Isabelle don't exactly have a
stellar reputation as a result.
Um, so yeah, I think there'svery clear injunctions against
(25:18):
particular things in that sensein, in the Bible as well.
What I found interestingrecently, and this is a very new
development I guess, is thatpeople have started tech to take
this quite seriously and startedtaking people to, trying to hold
people accountable in somesenses.
Like, you know, um, if you'vebeen around Instagram for a
little while and you're aChristian, you'll know about
preachers and sneakers, right?
(25:39):
And preachers, the sneakers isthis hilarious Instagram patient
.
All they do or he does.
I think it's a key.
It's so easy.
It's so straightforward.
It's so simple.
He just takes, um, he, he findsphotos of what celebrity
preachers are wearing atconferences and just list the
person next to them.
And I think that's fantasticidea.
Like, you know, I don't like thene, the public shaming part of
(26:02):
it, but it's caused, I think, alot of people to start
rethinking what it means to be apastor or you know, to, to
publicly flaunt their wealth orwhatever.
I definitely follow them.
Well.
Yeah.
And it's such a simple, I woulddare almost dare say Jesus, like
way of, you know, sort of justsaying, Hey, let's think about
(26:24):
what you're doing a little bit,you know, like, you know, Jesus
would never, it's not, it's nota judgemental thing necessarily.
It's not a humiliation thing.
It's just a simple calling toaccount and just saying, by the
way, your shoes cost a lot ofmoney.
Hey, maybe we should think aboutthis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What kind of message are wesending to people who, yeah,
(26:45):
especially when you've got poorpeople in your churches.
No, definitely.
Okay.
So if I am a lowly Christian,right, and I want to read the
Bible and actually understandits context and, and hopefully
try to read it as accurately asI possibly can.
What is a one Oh one.
(27:05):
Okay.
I mean, um, like I said, let's,let's never discount the
importance and value of readingfor yourself by yourself anyway.
Like, you know, um, there is agreat deal of value in just
reading the Bible for yourself.
I mean, people have, that's howa lot of people have come to
Christ.
Um, but if you do want to learnhow, how to read, I guess
contextually it might be a goodway of saying it or, or with
(27:27):
that first century hermeneutic,which we should all have in some
to some extent.
Um, there's a lot you can do.
Um, but like I said, it, itkinda takes a lifetime of
learning and immersion.
One helpful place to start is toread a little bit.
Um, and by read a little bit, Imean read books outside the
Bible that tell you how to doit.
(27:47):
So, um, you know, how to readthe Bible for all it's worth.
I think almost everyone hasheard about that book.
Um, and I think there's actuallya couple of other books in that
series that go into a bit moredetail that I think there's like
how to read the new Testament orhow to read, you know, the old
Testament full.
It's with, I'll leave a, I'llleave links to these in the show
notes.
Um, please do.
Um, those are probably for theaverage Christian who is, you
(28:09):
know, just interested inlearning a bit more.
That is one of the most helpfulresources I think you can get
because what that does is itgives you an idea about John HRA
, which is really, reallyimportant.
Um, and then, yeah, a few sortof, you know, key key notes or
whatever to um, to inform you abit about the background of
what's going on.
(28:29):
Um, there's a whole a wholebunch of other things you can
do.
Like, I mean, um, when w one ofthe interesting things about
being in a bubble college issome colleges teach hermeneutics
and some don't.
I found it's easier to not teachhermeneutics in that sense.
It's actually easier to teach itthrough the lens of a particular
book.
It means that you're not dealingwith vast time periods and you
(28:51):
know, huge cultural things.
So like let's say I'm teaching,um, Matthew, okay.
Or whatever, I can take the timeto more carefully talk about
culture, history, you know,geography and whatever.
Then I would be, if I was tryingto cover the whole new Testament
or the whole of the intro where,you know, hold the Bible.
(29:12):
Um, so commentaries generallywill be, will be, we'll do that.
They'll give you a bit of anidea of, um, context and so on.
Um, one thing that's helpful ifyou're looking for a particular
book is to go onto, um, yourlocal Bible colleges website and
see what they use as a textbook.
So let's say you want to studyIsaiah.
(29:33):
Okay.
Isaiah is a deeply complex book.
Go and yeah, go, go to yourlocal Bible college.
You'll have a look at a few,right?
And see what recommend as atextbook.
Part of the other problem Iguess or, or interesting
challenge that comes withteaching hermeneutics is that a
lot of it is verydenominationally based or
ideologically best in a sense.
(29:53):
So, you know, as Pentecostals,we want to have a Pentecostal
hermeneutic of a Bible, whichmeans, um, you know, the Holy
spirit has a bit more prominenceand then perhaps other things
that other places might teach,you know, other places might be
much more deeply archeologicallyhistorically contextually
rooted.
Other places might be, you know,um, complimentarian or whatever,
(30:13):
you know, there's all kinds ofways of approaching it.
So think that through as well.
So like, you know, if you, ifyou want a Pentecostal
perspective, go and look at acouple of Pentecostal Bible
colleges, have a look at whatthey recommend for a particular
book.
Um, and I guess like one otherthing is, um, to think about and
consider is TV and movies.
Um, I don't, you know, don't buythis.
(30:36):
I don't mean go rush out andwatch, you know, any movie you
can find on, you know, Jesus orthe apostles or whatever.
I actually mean think a littlebit laterally.
So what I encourage my studentsto do, so just to be clear,
you're not recommending we watchthe left behind series.
No, no, definitely not.
No.
But like, so, so here's mylittle lateral move that I tell
students, right?
If you're studying the newTestament, um, a great deal of
(30:59):
it is, you know, deals withGreek and Roman ideas, right?
So going and watching TV showsset in Greece and Rome in, you
know, in that roughly, that timeperiod, you know, that there was
that movie Pompei came out alittle while ago.
Terrible movie, but they got alot of things right.
Historically, you know,gladiator with Russell Crowe are
you not entertained?
Right.
That has some interestinghistorical inaccuracies in it,
(31:21):
but it's got some very goodexamples of how Roman is
thinking, acting and do things.
And at the moment in this 21stcentury, we are in like the
golden age of TV and people arereally able to capture that
culture in that time in manyways.
So that's helpful as well.
Like, you know, just have a lookat what do a bit of watching it
and have a think about what itmight be like to set, you know,
(31:44):
the story of Jesus in, in thistime period.
And what, what you'd notice, youknow, things like, how do Roman
Securian's Roman soldiers actwhen faced with normal people,
you know, that informs the waythat Peter's little conversation
with the Centurion in acts goes.
Yeah.
Just little things like that andI think make a big difference as
(32:04):
well.
Well, I know this is highlyirregular, but actually I'd like
to make a recommendation, Ireckon, uh, if people would like
overviews of, of books of theBible and also themes of the
Bible, I would recommend theBible project.
Oh yes.
Actually, yes.
They do an extraordinarily goodjob.
And they're the guys on YouTube.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they also have a podcast.
Okay.
Yeah.
I didn't know about the podcast,but um, yeah, they're, they're
(32:26):
YouTube videos.
Uh, extraordinarily good.
Don't listen to their podcastsover this podcast.
Listen to both.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
They put a lot of time andeffort into their, into their
videos and their very carefullyput together
James (32:42):
[inaudible] and I, I, they do a fantastic job,
especially on their YouTubechannel.
The, they put, they put a lot ofeffort into the creative side as
well.
So their information is veryaccurate.
But, but the animations areactually really, really nice to
look at and it's a, it's, it'svery well done.
So I would recommend that.
Yeah.
I mean, what a time to be alive,just to have finger tips.
(33:02):
Absolutely everything.
And
U-Wen (33:05):
you know, for all the pastors who are listening to
this, um, what I would encourageyou to do as well is, you know,
when, when it comes topreaching, just take another day
of prep, right?
And go and read a few of thesecommentaries.
Like I know some of them are dryand boring or whatever, but you
will, you will find somethingalmost always that will just
give you that little bit ofenlightenment and a little bit
(33:25):
of illumination andcongregations love it.
Like, you know, it's reallyhelpful for our congregations to
be able to learn one thing newabout the context every time you
get up on stage for example,because they all have it, all of
it contributes to their greaterknowledge as well.
And you know, we're not justcalled to give, you know,
encouraging words every week and, but also to teach.
(33:46):
And I think for me, you know, assomeone who teaches a Bible
college, that's my way of justupskilling everyone a little bit
at a time.
You know, I find it reallyhelpful.
James (33:55):
Well, I guess what we've learned today is the, the
anti-venom to texting iscontext, context and context.
U-Wen (34:02):
And, and reading.
It's almost like, you know,you've got slow TV now.
It is.
Yes.
You know, people go and watch atrain journey of 12 hours.
It's a little bit like that withthe Bible instead of taking
soundbites out, read the wholething.
You know, that that's theperfect way to combat proof
texting.
James (34:18):
Well, thank you so much for being with us today, and I
know I sent this last time, butI swear the next time we will be
about revelation, we'll getthere.
I'm so sorry.
Listen out for the trumpets.
Yeah, exactly.
All right, well thank you somuch for coming in today and, uh
, we'll see you soon.
Fantastic.
For more information andresources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
(34:43):
[inaudible].
We've done ourselves a little bit of a disservice in
that you can do a Google searchfor stuff that suits what you
want and you can build, you canbuild a theology first and then
come to the Bible second wherehistorically it's always been
the other way around
James (00:14):
from the city life church.
I'm James Wright.
This is contrast theory.
Today we're here again with youand lo, uh, the PhD, the man,
the myth, the legend.
And today we're going to talkabout hermeneutics,
hermeneutics, everyone'sfavourite big word.
(00:36):
Let's just start with thebasics.
For those who may not know, whatis hermeneutics?
Okay.
U-Wen (00:41):
Really good question.
And it's, it's actually a prettyinteresting one.
Um, part of the problem is that,you know, yeah, everyone sort of
throws this word around anddoesn't really know what it
means.
If we really hone it down to itsessential, I mean, you'd exceeds
interpretation, right?
How we, how we approached theBible.
But the problem is it's actuallya little bit more than that.
(01:01):
I think it, nowadays it's sortof become, when we talk about
it, it's more of a, a framework.
I guess a methodology of readingthe Bible.
So for example, I could say thatyou, you approach the Bible with
a hermeneutic of suspicion,which means that you don't take
it, you know, all of its truthclaims seriously and that you
(01:22):
are suspicious about what'sgoing on.
Um, some scholars talk abouthaving a home and unique a
faith, which means that you cometo the Bible with an inherent
assumption that God is real Holyspirit, et cetera, et cetera.
So, you know, it's a bit morethan just how you read the
Bible.
There's different, I guess,layers and elements to it as
well.
Nowadays we have things like,um, you know, in one of the big
(01:44):
areas that I work in at themoment is Asian hermeneutics,
which is how people in Asia whoread the Bible and interpret
different stories according to,you know, Asian cultural
traditions, um,responsibilities, et cetera, and
what elements they draw out ofthe story a little bit
differently.
So comparative and culturalhermeneutics is quite a thing at
(02:05):
the moment.
So, yeah, long story short formost of us, how many it is, it's
just the way we approached thetext and read it.
Um, you know, and the, thelenses that we bring to it, the
frameworks we have around it,but there's a whole lot of, um,
a whole lot going on behind thatas well.
James (02:21):
Do you think there could be problems with a cultural
hermeneutics like in terms ofmisinterpreting maybe exactly
what the original meaning was?
U-Wen (02:29):
It's a fascinating sort of discussion we're having in
the Academy at the momentbecause cultural hermeneutics
are important, right?
We're, we're in a postmodernworld where everyone's opinion
matters and everyone'sperspective matters.
And what we've actually found isthat cultural hermeneutics in a
lot of the sensors don't, theydon't apply the same critical
(02:50):
lenses that most scholars wouldoff the Bible.
So like, you know, we're notasking much about the context,
we're not asking much abouthistory and so on.
What we're doing with culturalhermeneutics is we're just
bringing, reading the story juststraight up, here's the
narrative, read it.
What does that mean for you inyour culture or your context?
(03:10):
And what we found is that itactually brings out, for those
of us who've grown up in, youknow, a Western civilization now
, whatever that means nowadays,but like say you've grown up in
Australia your whole life, um,you know, middle-class, you hear
someone from Latin America,right?
Talk about poverty and how theytherefore, um, read and
(03:30):
understand certain stories inthe Bible.
And what I think it does is itactually enriches our
understanding of the Bible.
They, there's no, there's noreal idea of, I guess some
objective truth being applied to, um, cultural hermeneutics.
It's just this is my perspectiveon the text and, you know, this
(03:51):
is what I get out of it.
And to be honest, we all do itanyway.
You know, we have a Pentecostalhome in Munich for a lot of
Pentecostals.
Um, there's definitely aprosperity hermeneutic, which
we, you know, which we know wellabout and everyone has their own
thing that they apply to it.
So I guess the argument is w,you know, is anyone reading the
Bible correctly in that sense?
(04:11):
You know, you kinda, you kind ofhave to flip the question on its
head.
Well, I both to answer thatquestion, do you think anyone is
reading the Bible correctly?
Uh, and that's a really, reallyloaded question, isn't it?
Like how can you read the Biblecorrectly?
Um, you know, it was writtensuch a long time ago for people
in a different place to where weare.
(04:31):
Um, different culturalassumptions, different
everything.
Um, I think what we can do is doour best to try and understand
and give it a fair reading.
I guess this is perhaps the bestway to put it.
So, you know, and most peopledon't.
And that's because it takes alifetime of training.
Like, you know, I like I'm, youknow, I grew up in, well mostly
(04:54):
in Australia.
Um, I grew up, I spent 10 yearsof my life in Asia.
So I think a little bit like anAustralian and a little bit like
an Asian person, but I'm notgoing into Africa, you know, and
learning how to think like anAfrican person or I'm not going
into Europe and learning how tothink like a European it unless
I stay there and spend alifetime there.
So, you know, unless you'reimmersed in the texts for a
(05:17):
lifetime or you know, a goodamount of time, you can't really
think like that, if that makessense.
So yeah, it's very frustratingbecause as Christians we want to
have something concrete,something objective that we can
all say, well this is truth,right?
But the fact of the matter is,truth is sometimes a little bit
(05:40):
subjective and it really dependson where you sit sometimes, not
always.
Could you give an example ofmaybe what truth may be
subjective and maybe which onesaren't?
Or now you're testing, I meanlike even just the way we put,
we have pushed and read the texttries to bring it back to human
use.
So, um, let's say tattoos.
(06:01):
Okay.
You know, for, for many years alot of conservative evangelical
Christians, Pentecostalsincluded, were really against
the idea of having tattoos.
Now let's take a step back.
Let's go to a con, uh, a culturethat has accepted tattoos and in
fact, you know, has informed animportant part of their cultural
identity.
(06:21):
Uh, like say the Maori people, Idon't know much about them, so I
don't want to speak too much tothem, but just using them as an
example, you know, and they go,okay, well, you know, does the
Bible say tattoos a bed?
Well, some texts too, but whenyou look at them in context,
they'd talk a bit more aboutthings like slavery and, and,
you know, indentured sort oflabor to a particular God being
(06:43):
dedicated to a God.
On the other hand, if you lookin revelation, revelation
chapter 19, when there's a rideron the white horse who most
commentators believe is Jesus,he comes with a sharp sword out
of his mouth.
He actually has his nametattooed on his, on his thigh.
So the, and there's a V that's avery clear, I think sign about
identity as well.
(07:04):
So you can really, you know, inthat sense, you know, you might
come from a tradition wheretattoos are bad and tattoos
being slavery.
Like, you know, I can understandlike if you, um, if you're sort
of post-Holocaust and you know,in one of the X men movies, I
think Magneto is like, I'venever, you know, I have the only
tattoo I have it.
(07:24):
And he got his sort of Ashnumber and I can understand why
tattoos might be bad coming outof that culture.
But on the other hand you've gotanother culture which says it's
okay and you can kind of readthe Bible either way.
So there really isn't anobjective truth in that sense.
I guess that they are obviouslyobjective tubes.
And that comes down to, I guessthings like morality and you
(07:45):
know, um, our frameworks ofjustice and law and order and
stuff like that.
But even then, there's alwaysvariation between cultures.
James (07:54):
Hmm.
Well, I mean, I guess you couldinclude in the other Orthodox
Christian beliefs, the divinityof Jesus, the a theology of the
Trinity, stuff like that.
So as someone who teaches andworks in a Bible college, why do
you think it is important tounderstand hermeneutics and, and
not just read the Bible?
U-Wen (08:14):
Yeah.
Um, look, reading the Bible isimportant.
Like let, let's not kidourselves that people can and do
get revelation from the Biblejust by reading it.
And that's, you know, that'sbeen I think legitimate for as
long as the Bible has beenaround.
You don't have the new Testamentwriters do it as well.
They reread the old Testamentscript kids and they draw new
(08:36):
understandings about it, thatpoint to Jesus.
So you know, in some cases youkind of, if you point the finger
at anyone, you've got to pointthe finger at them as well.
Having said that, part of thefact is like, like we've just
kind of discussed, you know,it's a, the new Testament and
the old Testament are bothcultural documents.
They're the historical artifactsI guess in a sense.
(08:58):
Like they've got a whole micromacro cause and where a whole
ecosystem of, um, I guesscultural understandings and
assumptions, language, all ofthese things attached to them
and their background and youknow, their, their product of a
particular place in a particulartime.
And if you don't understand thatplace in that time, you might
(09:22):
not understand, um, the nuancesor what the text is really
saying because, you know, thingsmight mean something completely
different today.
Um, you know, um, you know,people say, uh, literally right
and literally means, well, thisis exactly what happened.
But people also use literally tomean figuratively, like, Oh my
(09:42):
gosh, that was literally, youknow, the most amazing thing
I've ever seen.
Right?
But language is weird because itworks that way.
And you know, now dictionariesare starting to recognize that
you literally can meanfiguratively, which is a bit
nonsensical when you think aboutit, right?
But that's kind of the point.
So what happens when you've gotwords like that in the Bible or
(10:06):
situations like that in theBible where these things happen,
you know, or how do you explainparticular things like, um, you
know, nowadays we got, Oh,slavery's bad.
Everyone knows that slavery wasbad, but in those times it was
just natural light.
It was a way of life.
It was okay, yeah, I'm a slave,but it could be worse, it could
be dead.
So, you know, everything isvery, very contextual in that
(10:28):
sense.
So it's important for us tobring at least some
understanding of that context,which helps us to understand
particular passages a little bitbetter.
So after learning about, youknow, weed, we should be looking
into context, historical,cultural context, what is proof?
Texting?
Okay.
Really good question.
And proof.
Texting is something that occursquite a lot.
(10:50):
We all do it and it's, it's abad habit.
And basically proof texting iswhen you take a text out of
context in order to prove aparticular point that you're
trying to make.
A classic one might be.
Um, we, we say, okay, um, theBible is divinely inspired.
Okay.
Yeah, absolutely.
No one's got any problems withthat.
(11:10):
Um, I, that in first Timothy[inaudible] and people will take
the verse out of first Timothyand that verse says, come on
with the rest of it.
It says exactly, but it's, it'sgotta be useful for teaching,
rebuking, et cetera, et cetera.
Right?
And people go, Oh, well,clearly, therefore the whole
Bible, um, these criteriaapplied to the whole Bible.
Well, that's a proof textbecause what that does is it
(11:31):
doesn't recognize the fact thatthe new Testament hadn't been
compiled when that was written.
You know, Paul's not, I mean,can you imagine how arrogant you
have to be to sit there andthink, I'm writing scripture,
you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, everything I writeis God breathe.
That's right.
You know, and Paul's definitelynot that kind of person.
You know, if you read his stuff,he's, he definitely does.
It doesn't think of himself inthat way.
(11:51):
So that's a very clear, veryobvious example of a proof text.
Um, you know, we, we, we see itall the time in, uh, and you
know, coming back to the likesomething like prosperity
theology.
Um, people use proof texts allthe time and they'll say things
like, um, you know, they'll drawthe do to anomic framework of
blessings and curses, butthey'll leave out all the
(12:12):
curses, right?
There'll be like, Oh, blessedare you when this, this is this
and God will reward you athousand fold and blah, blah
blah button.
They forget on the back theother half of that incident,
everything.
Jeremiah 29 11, I know the plansI have for you says the Lord
plans to prosper you and not toharm you.
Well, you can't just take thatand drop that into your life and
go, well this is for me causeit's written for a group of
(12:33):
people who are in exile.
Cool.
Wondering like, you know, whatdo we do now?
We're, we've literally beentaken into a foreign country in
captivity with no hope for thefuture.
Do we, do we start, I guess,living our lives in this foreign
country?
Or do we patiently wait for Godto bring us back out?
And this Jeremiah example is atext of written to give them
(12:54):
hope and to let them know,actually it's okay for you to
have a life outside of yourgrief and your trauma.
Um, but we kind of take that andgo, Hey, look, everything's
going to work.
You know, everything's coming upMillhouse bluff.
I've seen people, uh, you know,want a new Lexus or something
like that and then go, ah, butthe Lord says for, I knew the
plans I have for you.
(13:15):
And you know, they use a as ifGod's plans are for you to just
prosper financially andmaterially and well, that's
fine.
And, and you know, when you,it's very different comparing
prosperity for someone who hasbeen taken into exile with all
this, all this stuff kind of,you know, but, and being taken
into a foreign country andthey're not sure if it's African
(13:36):
owned.
Well that site, they're not sureif they ever going to get back
to where they belong orwhatever, you know, um, versus
someone who, um, yeah.
Has, has, you know, already gottwo cars and, and wants a third
one.
Well, actually I'd just like to,I'd like to list a car, a couple
of my favorites people take outof context and you give me your
feedback.
Uh, Philippians four verse 13, Ican do all things through Christ
(13:59):
who strengthens me.
Now, um, I haven't looked tooclosely into that one recently,
but from memory, you know,that's, well that means you can
run a marathon with nopreparation, doesn't it?
You know, I can, I can get upand preach with no preparation.
I can lift 12 buses with onefinger.
That's right.
You know, leap tall buildingswith a single bed.
Um, I mean, and, and what isPaul writing about here?
(14:21):
And you know, again, I haven'tlooked at the, the, the verse
too closely in, in, in a littlewhile, but from memory, Paul's
just talking about the trialshe's been through and these
horrible sufferings that he'sgone through in service of the
gospel.
And he's saying, you know what,I don't care what the world
throws at me.
I'm still going to faithfullyserve God.
That's the context of the firstway I can do all things through
(14:43):
Christ who strengthens me.
And it's a, it's a verydifferent take on it, I guess in
that sense, isn't it?
When you look at it from thatperspective.
Yeah, totally.
Now I've got one written
James (14:52):
down, but I'd like to just make sure I get right there
.
We'll always use the King Jamesversion, right?
Oh, some reason they always usethe King James version.
So Proverbs 23 verse seven, foras he thinketh in his heart, so
is he, and it's always referringto there was Adonai, they're
always referring to, if youdon't think about you being rich
and God giving you blessings,obviously they're not going to
(15:14):
manifest, you know, cause theythink a third in your heart.
So easy you,
U-Wen (15:19):
it's amazing how much, um, you know, some of this
prosperity theology is like thesecret, isn't it?
James (15:23):
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
So universal granted to youtoday.
Well, and that's exactly right.
And I think as you said in theprevious podcast, shout out to
those who thought this episodewas going to be about
revelation.
That'll be the next one.
I swear we'll get there.
Um, you, you mentioned about how, um, you know, every, every,
there's nothing new under thesun.
Everything is pretty much just arepackage of something else.
(15:45):
Now if you read this verse incontext, in a modern
translation, like for example,the NIV, the entire thing from
the six to seven says, do noteat food.
Have a blue grudging host.
Do not crave his delicacies for,he's the kind of person who was
always thinking about the cost,eat and drink.
He says to you, but his heart isnot with you.
U-Wen (16:05):
That's a classic proof text, isn't it?
Really?
I mean, you know, you, it's veryeasy to, and this is where I
think in, in the age of thecomputer and the internet, we've
done ourselves a little bit of adisservice in that you can
Google do a Google search forstuff that suits what you want
and you can build, you can builda theology first and then come
(16:29):
to the Bible second wherehistorically it's always been
the other way around.
Right.
You know, Martin Luther, um, youknow, the reformers, all of
these guys, you know, they, theyread the Bible first, realized
something's wrong, and then theygo, ah, Hmm.
Like, you know, there'ssomething wrong with this
theology that we're, we're,we're in at the moment.
How do we rectify it?
James (16:47):
Yeah.
W what'd you call that?
Like a solar script aura.
Like, you know, the Bible alone.
U-Wen (16:51):
I mean, yeah, that, that's one of the obviously sort
of the, the, the, the rallyingcries of, of the reformers,
isn't it?
You know, that everything theydo is based on scripture.
I think.
I think we have to be a bit more, um, complex than that because
the world is a bit more complexthan that.
Um, I, I like to use the, um,Wesleyan quadrilateral as a good
way of informing, you know, kindof ideas.
So, um, would you like toquickly explain what that is?
(17:14):
Um, yes.
So the Wesleyan quadrilateral isessentially a, a four, four
framework, a four pronged, aframework that allows you to
examine things, right?
And the four prongs are, um,scripture reason, experience and
tradition and what that, whenyou look at things with that
framework, it doesn't solveanything, but it gives you a
(17:36):
good way of thinking aboutproblems.
And so you have to, I think it'shelpful to weigh up all four of
these elements when we, when wethink about things.
And the same for theology, like,you know,[inaudible] let's take
on prosperity theology once.
Okay.
Um, scripture, what does he say?
Well, yes, there is a theologyof prosperity in the Bible.
There's also theology ofsuffering.
(17:57):
There's also a theology ofcurses, um, of, of, you know,
giving all you have to the poorand, and you know, social
justice.
So you have to balance that.
Um, you know, reason.
Um, is it reasonable to expectthat God will bless me a, an
affluent middle class personliving in a Western world, you
know, the top 5% of, um,affluent people in the world to
(18:19):
to give me even more, you know,um, tradition, you know, has
God, well, I mean, I guess insome senses you could make that
argument because we are alreadyblessed.
But when you take a deeper lookat things like economics and how
they work, well, it's easy forthe affluent to keep, keep
getting money and keep becomingmore affluent and you know,
experience.
You know, what, what has Goddone for me in the past?
(18:42):
Now I can see why people mightuse this framework and land in
the wrong place.
It's possible.
Um, the problem with today is Ican look up, I can just Google
write Bible verses aboutrichness, right?
And some very helpful, very kindperson has gone and categorize
them all for me.
And I can do that with a Googlesearch.
But the problem is that you canbuild a theology of anything out
(19:05):
of that and all you're doing ispoof texting.
You're not doing what theancients would have done, which
is reading the whole verse, youknow, the whole captive,
probably the whole book of theBible in one sitting, the Bible
is big enough to come to anyconclusion that you would like.
Well, yeah, that's fine.
That's a really, that's a reallyhelpful aphorism to have.
You know, you can, you can makeit argue anything.
You could argue for aliens forgoodness sakes, right?
(19:26):
If you want it out of the Bible.
Um, but that's, that's whathappens when you pick bits and
pieces out of the Bible.
Whereas if you take the Bibleholistically and come to it book
by book, you know, um, clap bychapter even.
Uh, although argue book by bookis more helpful.
You get a, a Buddhist sense of,you know, what we call the grand
(19:46):
master narrative, right?
This idea that there is a storythat there is a border idea that
underpins the Bible that leavesus in a particular direction.
So I think that's something thatwe all have to take in mind as
well.
There's this idea of what hasGod been doing?
What is his plan for humanitybroadly speaking, and where is
it going?
And then, you know, look at whatwe do and go, does it actually
(20:07):
fit in with that?
So does it fit in for me to havetwo Lexuses while Alexa, while
while people, well, people stopin, in another country?
Well, I personally, I wouldn'tbe able to do that, but you
know, that that's me.
You know, someone else mightcome to a different conclusion.
Hmm.
How do you feel like there's aextremely successful, uh,
preachers who own a lot ofthings, you know, planes,
(20:33):
humongous houses.
Yeah.
How do you think they come tokind of justify that?
I don't know, because I'm notrich and I never plan on being
rich.
I never want to be rich.
Well, Lord, if you'd like totest me, yeah, that's fine.
Well, I mean, look, there'snothing wrong with being rich.
I don't think God is going tosort of have this tele when you
get to heaven, right?
Of of, you know, how much moneydid you have?
(20:56):
I think what God is interestedin is how you use what's given
to you.
So again, you know that, that'swhere we have to kind of find
different frameworks to weigh itup and ask the question, you
know, do, are they genuinelydoing what's right and what's
good in the eyes of the Lord?
And the trouble with being aChristian or being a religious
person in general is thatthere's a point where you have
(21:18):
to take a leap of faith fightand you don't know.
You have to just say at the endof the day, I don't know.
Only God can judge, which isvery, very frustrating obviously
for a lot of us.
Um, but what, what I would sayis, look, you know, I think
broadly speaking, we do see alot of, a lot of, um, teaching
on wealth and money throughout,especially in the gospels and,
(21:41):
and what you do with it.
If you look at sort of the, theHebrew Bible, the old Testament
as a, as a continuum, there isvery, very clearly a vision for
every person, which is to beable to have, um, essentially
have a field of their own, um,in which they can have risen
livestock and grow some crops.
(22:03):
And I think what we see through,if you read the Hebrew Bible,
the old Testament carefully, isthat is I guess the kind of
holistic postural kind of visionfor all people that every
person, every homestead, I guessis able to support themselves
off off the land.
And that's all that God everreally wants for his people in
(22:25):
some senses, you know, to behappy, to be able to, to prosper
in the sense that they are notwanting anything for anything,
um, and that they're able tofeed themselves.
Now gradually, as the newTestament is written, we shift
to a slightly more urban vision.
Right?
Um, and in that sense, we have,I think, a bit more of an
extreme demarcation between richand poor.
(22:49):
And, and so that's where wereally see a bit more of this
idea of social justice.
And I mean, it's clearly therein the Hebrew Bible as well, but
I think we see a bit more of astronger emphasis on it in the
new Testament because that's, itmatters a lot more.
It's a lot more crucial, a lotmore relevant.
So you have, you know, earlyChristians selling all they have
and living in community and, youknow, picking up orphans off the
(23:10):
street and, and, and, you know,helping the poor and so on and
so forth.
And at the end in revelation,what we get is this great vision
of a city where everyone livesin the city and all their needs
are provided for.
Um, stay tuned for the nextpodcast of revelation where we
can truly discuss thesequestions.
Um, but you know, um, yeah, atthe end of the day, I think a
(23:32):
lot of what life looks like forGod's people is essentially
self-sufficiency as a community.
It's really as simple as that.
And one story that all thelecturers, teachers, whatever,
come to is the story of[inaudible] vineyard, right?
It's, it's kind of like thearchetypal story of what a bad
(23:54):
King does in, um, in Hebrewthought.
Um, that's in first Kings kept a21.
So if you're interested in goingand have a read of it, I'll,
I'll sum it up very quickly.
In essence, you've got kingaehas and his wife Isabelle,
right?
And everyone knows the name ofdecibel because you know, she
ends up doing some pretty poorthings.
So this is one of those things,right?
(24:14):
Um, Ahab wants to get thisvineyard for himself, um, from
neighbor.
A neighbor refuses to sell it tohim because it says, um,
ancestral property.
Okay, yeah, fine, no worries.
Um, and that should have beenthe end of it, but they have
really wants it.
And Jessebelle says to them, Oh,well, you know, you're the King
sorted out essentially.
(24:34):
Um, and so he gets a couple ofpeople to, um, basically falsely
accused and a boss of particularthings and then they both is
killed as a result.
And so Ahab comes in and hetakes the land.
Now the prophet Elisha hearsabout this and, um, you know,
basically curses I have, andit's a very, very clear
indicator that you should neveruse your wealth or your power to
(24:58):
abuse others in order to gainmore wealth and power and mean,
you know, have a read of it andhave a read of what Elisha says.
It's a very clear, verycondemnatory.
And, and you know, I had been,Isabelle don't exactly have a
stellar reputation as a result.
Um, so yeah, I think there'svery clear injunctions against
(25:18):
particular things in that sensein, in the Bible as well.
What I found interestingrecently, and this is a very new
development I guess, is thatpeople have started tech to take
this quite seriously and startedtaking people to, trying to hold
people accountable in somesenses.
Like, you know, um, if you'vebeen around Instagram for a
little while and you're aChristian, you'll know about
preachers and sneakers, right?
(25:39):
And preachers, the sneakers isthis hilarious Instagram patient
.
All they do or he does.
I think it's a key.
It's so easy.
It's so straightforward.
It's so simple.
He just takes, um, he, he findsphotos of what celebrity
preachers are wearing atconferences and just list the
person next to them.
And I think that's fantasticidea.
Like, you know, I don't like thene, the public shaming part of
(26:02):
it, but it's caused, I think, alot of people to start
rethinking what it means to be apastor or you know, to, to
publicly flaunt their wealth orwhatever.
I definitely follow them.
Well.
Yeah.
And it's such a simple, I woulddare almost dare say Jesus, like
way of, you know, sort of justsaying, Hey, let's think about
(26:24):
what you're doing a little bit,you know, like, you know, Jesus
would never, it's not, it's nota judgemental thing necessarily.
It's not a humiliation thing.
It's just a simple calling toaccount and just saying, by the
way, your shoes cost a lot ofmoney.
Hey, maybe we should think aboutthis.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What kind of message are wesending to people who, yeah,
(26:45):
especially when you've got poorpeople in your churches.
No, definitely.
Okay.
So if I am a lowly Christian,right, and I want to read the
Bible and actually understandits context and, and hopefully
try to read it as accurately asI possibly can.
What is a one Oh one.
(27:05):
Okay.
I mean, um, like I said, let's,let's never discount the
importance and value of readingfor yourself by yourself anyway.
Like, you know, um, there is agreat deal of value in just
reading the Bible for yourself.
I mean, people have, that's howa lot of people have come to
Christ.
Um, but if you do want to learnhow, how to read, I guess
contextually it might be a goodway of saying it or, or with
(27:27):
that first century hermeneutic,which we should all have in some
to some extent.
Um, there's a lot you can do.
Um, but like I said, it, itkinda takes a lifetime of
learning and immersion.
One helpful place to start is toread a little bit.
Um, and by read a little bit, Imean read books outside the
Bible that tell you how to doit.
(27:47):
So, um, you know, how to readthe Bible for all it's worth.
I think almost everyone hasheard about that book.
Um, and I think there's actuallya couple of other books in that
series that go into a bit moredetail that I think there's like
how to read the new Testament orhow to read, you know, the old
Testament full.
It's with, I'll leave a, I'llleave links to these in the show
notes.
Um, please do.
Um, those are probably for theaverage Christian who is, you
(28:09):
know, just interested inlearning a bit more.
That is one of the most helpfulresources I think you can get
because what that does is itgives you an idea about John HRA
, which is really, reallyimportant.
Um, and then, yeah, a few sortof, you know, key key notes or
whatever to um, to inform you abit about the background of
what's going on.
(28:29):
Um, there's a whole a wholebunch of other things you can
do.
Like, I mean, um, when w one ofthe interesting things about
being in a bubble college issome colleges teach hermeneutics
and some don't.
I found it's easier to not teachhermeneutics in that sense.
It's actually easier to teach itthrough the lens of a particular
book.
It means that you're not dealingwith vast time periods and you
(28:51):
know, huge cultural things.
So like let's say I'm teaching,um, Matthew, okay.
Or whatever, I can take the timeto more carefully talk about
culture, history, you know,geography and whatever.
Then I would be, if I was tryingto cover the whole new Testament
or the whole of the intro where,you know, hold the Bible.
(29:12):
Um, so commentaries generallywill be, will be, we'll do that.
They'll give you a bit of anidea of, um, context and so on.
Um, one thing that's helpful ifyou're looking for a particular
book is to go onto, um, yourlocal Bible colleges website and
see what they use as a textbook.
So let's say you want to studyIsaiah.
(29:33):
Okay.
Isaiah is a deeply complex book.
Go and yeah, go, go to yourlocal Bible college.
You'll have a look at a few,right?
And see what recommend as atextbook.
Part of the other problem Iguess or, or interesting
challenge that comes withteaching hermeneutics is that a
lot of it is verydenominationally based or
ideologically best in a sense.
(29:53):
So, you know, as Pentecostals,we want to have a Pentecostal
hermeneutic of a Bible, whichmeans, um, you know, the Holy
spirit has a bit more prominenceand then perhaps other things
that other places might teach,you know, other places might be
much more deeply archeologicallyhistorically contextually
rooted.
Other places might be, you know,um, complimentarian or whatever,
(30:13):
you know, there's all kinds ofways of approaching it.
So think that through as well.
So like, you know, if you, ifyou want a Pentecostal
perspective, go and look at acouple of Pentecostal Bible
colleges, have a look at whatthey recommend for a particular
book.
Um, and I guess like one otherthing is, um, to think about and
consider is TV and movies.
Um, I don't, you know, don't buythis.
(30:36):
I don't mean go rush out andwatch, you know, any movie you
can find on, you know, Jesus orthe apostles or whatever.
I actually mean think a littlebit laterally.
So what I encourage my studentsto do, so just to be clear,
you're not recommending we watchthe left behind series.
No, no, definitely not.
No.
But like, so, so here's mylittle lateral move that I tell
students, right?
If you're studying the newTestament, um, a great deal of
(30:59):
it is, you know, deals withGreek and Roman ideas, right?
So going and watching TV showsset in Greece and Rome in, you
know, in that roughly, that timeperiod, you know, that there was
that movie Pompei came out alittle while ago.
Terrible movie, but they got alot of things right.
Historically, you know,gladiator with Russell Crowe are
you not entertained?
Right.
That has some interestinghistorical inaccuracies in it,
(31:21):
but it's got some very goodexamples of how Roman is
thinking, acting and do things.
And at the moment in this 21stcentury, we are in like the
golden age of TV and people arereally able to capture that
culture in that time in manyways.
So that's helpful as well.
Like, you know, just have a lookat what do a bit of watching it
and have a think about what itmight be like to set, you know,
(31:44):
the story of Jesus in, in thistime period.
And what, what you'd notice, youknow, things like, how do Roman
Securian's Roman soldiers actwhen faced with normal people,
you know, that informs the waythat Peter's little conversation
with the Centurion in acts goes.
Yeah.
Just little things like that andI think make a big difference as
(32:04):
well.
Well, I know this is highlyirregular, but actually I'd like
to make a recommendation, Ireckon, uh, if people would like
overviews of, of books of theBible and also themes of the
Bible, I would recommend theBible project.
Oh yes.
Actually, yes.
They do an extraordinarily goodjob.
And they're the guys on YouTube.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they also have a podcast.
Okay.
Yeah.
I didn't know about the podcast,but um, yeah, they're, they're
(32:26):
YouTube videos.
Uh, extraordinarily good.
Don't listen to their podcastsover this podcast.
Listen to both.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
They put a lot of time andeffort into their, into their
videos and their very carefullyput together
James (32:42):
[inaudible] and I, I, they do a fantastic job,
especially on their YouTubechannel.
The, they put, they put a lot ofeffort into the creative side as
well.
So their information is veryaccurate.
But, but the animations areactually really, really nice to
look at and it's a, it's, it'svery well done.
So I would recommend that.
Yeah.
I mean, what a time to be alive,just to have finger tips.
(33:02):
Absolutely everything.
And
U-Wen (33:05):
you know, for all the pastors who are listening to
this, um, what I would encourageyou to do as well is, you know,
when, when it comes topreaching, just take another day
of prep, right?
And go and read a few of thesecommentaries.
Like I know some of them are dryand boring or whatever, but you
will, you will find somethingalmost always that will just
give you that little bit ofenlightenment and a little bit
(33:25):
of illumination andcongregations love it.
Like, you know, it's reallyhelpful for our congregations to
be able to learn one thing newabout the context every time you
get up on stage for example,because they all have it, all of
it contributes to their greaterknowledge as well.
And you know, we're not justcalled to give, you know,
encouraging words every week and, but also to teach.
(33:46):
And I think for me, you know, assomeone who teaches a Bible
college, that's my way of justupskilling everyone a little bit
at a time.
You know, I find it reallyhelpful.
James (33:55):
Well, I guess what we've learned today is the, the
anti-venom to texting iscontext, context and context.
U-Wen (34:02):
And, and reading.
It's almost like, you know,you've got slow TV now.
It is.
Yes.
You know, people go and watch atrain journey of 12 hours.
It's a little bit like that withthe Bible instead of taking
soundbites out, read the wholething.
You know, that that's theperfect way to combat proof
texting.
James (34:18):
Well, thank you so much for being with us today, and I
know I sent this last time, butI swear the next time we will be
about revelation, we'll getthere.
I'm so sorry.
Listen out for the trumpets.
Yeah, exactly.
All right, well thank you somuch for coming in today and, uh
, we'll see you soon.
Fantastic.
For more information andresources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
(34:43):
[inaudible].
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