October 14, 2019 • 19 mins
Jo Saxton is an author, speaker, podcast host, and leadership coach. Today, Jo joins me to talk about discipleship, the church, and women in ministry.
Links:
Jo Saxton's Website
The Dream of You Book by Jo Saxton
Jo Saxton’s Book List
Lead Stories Podcast
Harvard Business Review
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jo Saxton (00:00):
I think there's something phenomenal about the
fact that 2000 years across thedenominations there haven't, the
church has been, has buckledunder pressure.
It's ha, it's been corrupted atvarious times, but still there
are still people who will get upand proclaim the name of Jesus
tomorrow.
James (00:16):
From CityLife Church, I'm James Wright.
This is Contrast Theory.
Well today I've got Jo Saxtonhere with me.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Jo Saxton (00:28):
Thank you for having me.
James (00:29):
Now for those who don't know you, you are a lead.
Let me just, I have a list.
You are a leadership trainer, aninternational speaker, author of
three books.
Well obviously internationalspeaker, we're here.
Author of three books, chair ofthe board at 3d movements,
co-host a podcast called leadstories, founder of the Erza
collective.
(00:50):
I'm not, or I'm not sure.
How do you have any time in yourlife?
Jo Saxton (00:54):
Well, I don't do all of those things all at all, all
the time.
So, um, so yeah, I stepped downfrom the board maybe a year just
about.
Last summer, I don't know whatday it is.
I don't know the day and I don'tknow the season, so I can't even
say when it happened, but it didhappen, I promise.
Yes.
(01:15):
Um, well you know, like withmost things, I think most people
wear a lot of hats really.
I just don't do them all at onceand I don't do them all for a
sustained period of time.
James (01:22):
Yeah, right.
Well that's fair enough.
Well for those who don't know,you just arrived this morning.
Jo Saxton (01:26):
Yes, yes I did.
And the plane was delayed so wemissed it.
I don't know.
We're meant to get hereyesterday.
We got here today and hopefullysome of our bags will arrive
later today.
James (01:38):
I think you missed a day as well.
Jo Saxton (01:39):
Yeah, we missed the day anyway, so we missed the
day.
We're delayed today andeverything.
James (01:43):
It's all over the place.
It's all over the place.
Yeah, it's hard to keep track.
Jo Saxton (01:47):
What country am I in?
James (01:48):
Austria.
I think you read the planeticket wrong.
Jo Saxton (01:49):
That'd be so weird.
James (01:56):
You're originally from the UK?
Jo Saxton (01:58):
I am, yes.
James (01:58):
When did you move to the States?
(02:00):
I moved about 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Initially to Phoenix.
That was warm.
Yes.
We um, w e moved to work.
It was al most a bit like achurch swap.
Um, e xcept I don't know thatthey se nd p eople an yway,
there ar e a number of teamswent to work with this church.
They were looking at how theycould transition the model of
their church to incorporatediscipleship more and being more
(02:23):
intentional about mission.
Th e v ery hard, it was veryhard.
I think there wa s s o much, Ithink it took me five years to
realize, Oh no, I knew I didn'tknow stuff about America, but I
didn't quite know the de pth.
And then 10 years to think, Ohnow I know what I don't know.
I th ink i t took quite a whilenow, 15 years and I'm just like,
wow man.
James (02:42):
Are you still figuring stuff out?
Jo Saxton (02:44):
Cause I think, I don't know whether, you know
like Australia is huge.
Yeah.
So I'm imagining that Perth as aculture and everything can be
actually quite different toplaces.
Would that be fair?
I felt like the U S is likeseven countries, seven countries
and, and what you can do in oneplace is the very opposite of
what you can do in another.
And um, yeah, I mean it's just ajourney of discovery.
James (03:08):
Now you, you are well qualified to talk on many, many
topics.
And uh, over my research I'veseen you talk at vast amount in
varying, you know, churches anddenominations.
And one of the topics I've I'veseen you passionately speak
about is a discipleship.
Jo Saxton (03:23):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
James (03:24):
Why, why do you think discipleship is so important?
Jo Saxton (03:26):
Well, um, in the context of faith, Jesus told us
to, and um, and I think they'rehis marching orders.
You know, that his last wordsare like your marching orders.
And that's all he invited peopleinto.
He said he would make disciples.
He invited people to be hisdisciples.
And I think, I mean, we havethis luxury in this chapter of
history to think of all thedifferent things we're called to
(03:48):
do and all the different placesthat we could be and where we'd
go because of technology and,and transport.
And all that kind of stuff.
But wherever we are, we'realways called to make disciples
and, and that, that it's a wordfor all of us.
So to that end, I'm like, Ireally want to know how to do
that.
Right.
You know, I may speak sometimes,I may not others I'm like, yeah,
like the list of things, thosethings will change with every
(04:09):
chapter in season of my life.
But the discipleship one is onefor every chapter.
And I think it, I think we, whenwe understand what discipleship
is, we, um, we live more fullyas Christians.
James (04:23):
Hmm.
Well, one of my favorite partsin, uh, this book,'The Dream of
You'
Jo Saxton (04:27):
thank you for the shameless plug there.
Thank you very much.
I receive it.
James (04:33):
Now obviously I could tell this book wasn't written
directly to me.
As, you know, it's constantlytalking about women, but that's
fine.
There so many things thathonestly everyone can learn from
the book.
One of my favorite parts is, iswhere you talk about how you can
make disciples in whateversituation you're in.
Uh, you can turn the tide in, inyour family and your community
in your workplace.
Uh, how do, how do you see thattransforming people in your
(04:55):
everyday life?
Jo Saxton (04:56):
Yeah, well, I'm mindful of like, I like do an
audit if who's in my life fromtime to time just to sit, not
because I'm getting rid of it.
I guess I'm asking myself thequestion, what does it mean to
be Jesus to these people?
You know?
Um, if, if I am the onlyrepresentative that they know of
(05:18):
faith, am I, am I a good one oram I doing damage?
You know, um, and like thosewere the people in my life
permanently.
But also the people I pass bywith like when I'm in Starbucks
or Target, God bless the place,or wherever I am, I have an
opportunity to be a walking,talking overflow of the kingdom
of heaven.
And so making disciples that thewhole thing about discipleship
(05:39):
means a student, an apprentice.
And so I, I want to be sure inmy language, in my relationships
that I am, I'm trying to walkthe way of Jesus and, and
illustrating what that lookslike.
We're trying to be livingexamples of what it means to
follow Jesus.
And that's my hope when Mike, Ihave a tweenager and a teenager,
(05:59):
which means that they havefriends who come over and kind
of graze in our kitchen and justleaving, do you know, like
termites and just sweep through.
I looked and thought you'renever leaving children are you?
Ever.
Any of them.
Um, but I, I just thought, youknow, I want it to be a safe
place for these kids.
And that doesn't mean like everytime I sit down and say, tell me
your issues, that will happen,but I want it.
(06:22):
I want it to be a home wherethey can always think like, OK.
um, when they think ofChristians, they think, Oh, they
don't think of bigotry or um,self-centeredness or many other
things, which sadly are allrealities.
They think of welcome and theythink of love and they think of
grace and they think, you knowwhat I mean, those sorts of
(06:43):
things.
And, and we don't, that doesn'tcome from just what we say.
Those things are caught as wellas taught.
And, and Jesus, like heembodied, he, he embodied good
news with his words, with hisactions, with everything.
He, what does it say in TheMessage version of John 1:14,
the word became flesh and movedinto the neighborhood.
And I, and I feel like asChristians we move into the
(07:04):
neighborhoods we're already in,we're sent to the lines we
already have.
And then I'm going, then I'masking what do we do with that?
James (07:11):
Can you think of one thing or maybe a couple of
things that the church iscurrently doing poorly about
discipleship?
Jo Saxton (07:17):
I think there are many things that we could say,
and it's hard because differentparts of the world have
different journeys.
But I would say for the West,one of the things I would
encourage us to think of is thedegree to that we've made
discipleship purely aboutinstruction and we've made it a
didactic process.
And it's not that, that's notpart of it because we see that
(07:40):
with Jesus.
But there are, there's a wholeload of other things that aren't
just the instruction on thecourse and the program and the
class.
And I think what we can, I thinkwe can set ourselves up for
heartbreak as leaders, as, aschurches when we're like, you
know, I taught them all thisstuff, how come they're not
living it?
And it's like, well, becausethat's a slice of discipleship.
(08:01):
It's not the whole ofdiscipleship.
So if you don't put all theingredients in the cake, you
don't get the cake that youplanned.
So it's not a chocolate cake ifyou didn't put any chocolate in
it, you know, all the, it'sstill a cake still cake.
And I.
James (08:13):
Just a disappointing cake.
Jo Saxton (08:14):
It's just, well ironically this is where the
thing falls apart cause I don'tlike chocolate bar.
I like to offer that as anillustration because most people
do.
But I guess I would say if weare only doing one aspect of one
dimensional form ofdiscipleship, then we will get a
one dimensional form ofdisciple.
We can't help but, and that's no, that's no shade to the people
involved.
It's not that we don't do itwell, it's just, it's
(08:36):
incomplete.
James (08:37):
So what do you think the church has been doing well?
Jo Saxton (08:39):
I mean, I do think we have to respect the fact that
the church is still here.
The church is still here, Ithink.
And on one level we could sayit's not that I don't think
worship is wonderful, all ofthose things are wonderful, but
I, I, I think there's somethingphenomenal about the fact that
2000 years cross thedenominations there haven't, the
(09:00):
church has been, has, hasbuckled under pressure, it's
been corrupted at various times,but still there are still people
who will get up and proclaim thename of Jesus tomorrow and all
around the world.
I think there are in parts ofthe world where it's popular,
and parts of the world whereit's unpopular.
I think that is incredible.
I think that that the church,even in its weakness is trying
(09:20):
to point to Jesus.
That's incredible.
And um, and I think whenever thechurch and it may not be the
most glamorous way and it maynot be the most known way, but
whenever the church is reachingout to the lost, the last, the
least and the lonely, I thinkwe've got it.
I think we have to honour that.
I think it's a wonderful thingbecause it's, it's, people are
doing the best they can, youknow, with what they know.
(09:42):
I think that's good.
James (09:43):
That's fair enough.
Now my other favorite thing thatyou speak on a lot is women in
leadership.
Jo Saxton (09:48):
I thought you were gonna say target.
James (09:49):
Oh, Target.
Well, actually, you know, beforewe get to this, I would like to
make a note to anyone who'slistening.
Target in Australia issignificantly disappointing if
you compare it to the Americantarget.
Jo Saxton (10:00):
Real talk.
James (10:00):
When I went to the States for the first time I went to, I
went to target in the States andit blew my mind, the fact that I
could do grocery shopping andget clothes...
Pretty much anything that themind can imagine.
Jo Saxton (10:17):
A village under one roof.
James (10:19):
It is incredible.
You can eat there, there's food,they have hot food.
Yeah, you can get pizza.
What?
Anyway, I'm getting toodistracted and it's really, it's
so high up on my list.
Every time I go back to theStates and I'm visiting my
family in Canada and I'm like,Oh, I might make a pit stop at
the States so I can go toTarget.
Um, no, one of my favouritetopics is that you speak about
(10:40):
is women in ministry.
And you are very passionateabout seeing women rise up in
the church.
Why are you so passionate aboutthat?
Jo Saxton (10:49):
Um, I think some of it is a discipleship thing.
It's, and I, I'm aware thatthere is a framework of theory.
There's a range of theologicalconvictions.
And I'd say the same toeverybody.
Invest in your women because youare not going to see, I mean,
we, we're all played too.
We're all called to play ourpart in His great commission.
If you don't invest in people,they're not able to do it.
(11:10):
Um, obviously from the frameworkof, of where I'm at, when I see
the Deborah's and the Lydia'sand the Phoebe's and the
Priscilla's and the Junia's andothers in the Bible.
And I'm like, yeah.
And, and I, and we have womenwho are made in the image of God
with gifts and talents.
And, and I mean, I put, I don't,some would say it's a justice
(11:31):
issue.
I don't know.
I just think it's a theologicalone.
I think we see it in the Bible.
Let's do it.
Even if it's just to the degreethat we see women in the Bible
do what they do, let's do that.
It's just, you know, couldDeborah do what she could Miriam
do, um, today in our spaces?
I mean, we'd get loads of them.
And so I think some of it is, Isee women with gifts and talents
(11:51):
and call.
Um, and I think we can have anumber of responses.
We can shut it down.
Um, we could give lip service toit, but no actual investment.
And I think that's a painfulreality to say.
Yeah.
Not gonna do anything about itthough.
That doesn't help anybody.
Um, but I think of what is nothappening because we have lived
off half an army.
(12:12):
And what burden has that put onguys to do it all and be it all
and what's not happening?
What businesses aren't beinglaunched, what creative ventures
aren't happening, what churchesaren't being planted, who is
buckling under the pressure,stress and burnout because we
are, um, we're not all involved.
I mean, I, it just doesn't makesense.
James (12:32):
Yeah.
What do you think are the otherkey things that churches should
be doing to encourage theirwomen?
Jo Saxton (12:39):
Um, I think there are lots of things.
I think there are, there's aphrase by a woman called Marian
Wright Edelman, and she said,you can't be what you can't see.
And I think for women, if theydon't hear their stories, if
they don't hear themselves orsee themselves, it's very hard
to think of what's normal.
(13:00):
And it's hard when y ou'renormal has been, you see
yourself all the time and youknow, when you're, and you hear
you, you hear characters, whichsound like you or whatever.
Now I g et, I get loads out of every, i t's the Bible.
Of course I get loads out ofeverybody.
I'm just aware that we don'tpreach on Deborah very much or,
o r Priscilla o r P hoebe andall that kind of stuff, tell
their stories.
A nd u m, and it's not thatyou'd be amazed a t t he
(13:22):
relevance, not just for them.
I mean, not obviously they'refor men as well, but I think
that that's one thing what wecelebrate publicly, whether we
like it or not, is an accidentalendorsement.
So what do you want tocelebrate?
Um, are we giving peopleopportunities to grow, to fail?
Um, I think the challenge, andthis isn't easy for anybody, I
think there are many voicestelling all of us, men and women
(13:44):
what to do, but there is a lotculturally which says to women
that to have a voice is aproblematic thing to be strong
can be a problematic thing.
And, and it even varies fromethnicity to ethnicity as well
in terms of the culturalstereotypes.
And as a church we havesomething to say to that.
We are, we have the model of howJesus related to women.
Do we model that in the way wefunction and do we encourage,
(14:05):
you know, like Jesus had Joanna,Susanna and Mary travelling with
him and I and and as after they,they are transformed by him and
then they become part of theteam.
Are we living i nto that?
I think, I think we have massiveopportunities but if we don't
have, if women don't haveaccess, if they don't have
encouragement, access andopportunities to fail, then not
(14:27):
much will happen.
O h, and fail and succeed aswell.
James (14:29):
It is interesting.
It's sometimes a harsh realitywhen you think about churches,
sometimes they're notrepresenting the or giving women
the trust and leadership valuesthat they did even in the Bible.
I mean, who is, who wasentrusted with the information
that Jesus had risen the firstpeople who found out were women.
I love the fact that you arespeaking to that and I want you
(14:52):
to speak to women right now.
Jo Saxton (14:53):
Yes.
Hello!
James (14:55):
Hello women.
Now, what, what do you want tosay to them right now?
What would you like them to do?
Jo Saxton (15:00):
I would first of all say to you that, um, that God
sees you and he knows you andthat he made you with gifts and
talents and abilities thatyou're made in his image and
you're not an accident.
You're not accidentally gifted,you're not accidentally strong,
you're not accidentally ablethat they're wonderful things
(15:20):
and as such, um, to invest inthem, like to unwrap the gifts
which you've kept, kept hiddenfor a long time.
I would say surround yourselfwith people who see what you've
got to offer.
Um, and I would say go for it.
Um, it's not going to be easy,but not many of the best things
are.
Um, I would say to surroundyourself, whether it's digitally
(15:43):
or through books or resourcesthat can invest in those
qualities and those and thegifts you have, whether your
ministry is in the context ofthe church, whether your
ministries in the workplace.
Cause again, I mean, we've madethat separation not the Bible as
such, you know, most of, most ofthe, our biblical heroes that
jobs.
They had jobs and that's wherethey were living it.
Um, and I would just say you arehere for such a time as this,
(16:04):
and it's, you're not on, it'snot accidental and you're not
too strong and you're not toomuch.
I would encourage you to look upthe word, helper in the Hebrew.
Um, because it, and I'm notsaying this by some manipulation
of the text or anything likethat, and it's just, it's just
the word itself.
Um, to recognize it means somuch more than what we've
limited it to it as.
And, and to those of you whosay, you know what, I feel
(16:26):
really called to my husband andmy kids absolutely do it.
Do you know this isn't a kindof, Hey, right you are, raise up
from the chains of doing thosethings...
No, that's weird.
We don't need to be weird.
No n eed t o be w eird.
U m, I'm just encouraging us totake hold of what God has
designed us for and live itfully in his name.
And if that means God gives youa promotion whereby you are able
(16:47):
to create an ethical workplace,do it rather than say, should I
be there because I'm a woman?
Y eah, you should.
You're a representative of thekingdom of God.
And if God has called you topreach, and if God h as called
you to write songs, h e's calledyou to raise your kids or raise
your kids kids as a g randma,whatever it is, just give it
all.
You know?
W e, I think often with women,what I found is that, u m,
(17:10):
skills are r arely the issue.
It's confidence and the, thebattle that women have to f ight
in their minds before they evensay they're called because they,
I mean, t here a re magazineswhich are digitally structured
to make us feel inadequate sothat we s pend o ur money on
stuff and that's there.
There are kids h aven't d onegoing on diets at age eight.
And so there is a lot pumped inour mindsets from, from a very
(17:34):
early age of what we're meant tobe, to be worthy and what we
have to offer.
And it's never about our minds.
You know what I mean?
It's n ot a bout, Oh, y ou'vegot a way with science.
N o, that's n ot t heir thing.
U m, but God has a bigger wordfor you and, u m, and a
wonderful purpose for you.
And he sees all those things inyour mind, but have the courage
(17:54):
to begin to step out.
James (17:57):
God's word and vision is not superficial.
Jo Saxton (17:58):
No, not at all.
It's, it's, I mean, it's, it'sintense, man.
James (18:03):
So women, that's, uh, that's your call.
That is definitely your call.
Now, can you recommend anyresources besides your three
wonderful books.
Are there any other resourcesthat you'd recommend?
Jo Saxton (18:16):
Um, I tend to, I tend to, where do I go?
Podcasts, the great.
Oh yeah.
Thank you.
Lead Stories.
Um, me and a friend called Stephdo that, but I would, I would
probably, I mean for me in termsof leadership stuff, I actually
look at a lot of business thingsas well.
So like Harvard Business Reviewand stuff like that have been
real helpful.
(18:36):
Um, I would look at theChristian leaders they admire
and see what resources are outthere and just go, but go on the
internet, see the podcasts andthe blog posts and things like
that.
Um, the kind of women who aredoing things that you, you're
interested in doing, startthere.
James (18:50):
That's great.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forcoming in.
Jo Saxton (18:52):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
James (18:53):
Enjoy the rest of your time here and, uh, buy the book.
And uh, hopefully we'll speaksoon.
Jo Saxton (19:00):
Thank you.
James (19:01):
For more information and resources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
I think there's something phenomenal about the
fact that 2000 years across thedenominations there haven't, the
church has been, has buckledunder pressure.
It's ha, it's been corrupted atvarious times, but still there
are still people who will get upand proclaim the name of Jesus
tomorrow.
James (00:16):
From CityLife Church, I'm James Wright.
This is Contrast Theory.
Well today I've got Jo Saxtonhere with me.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Jo Saxton (00:28):
Thank you for having me.
James (00:29):
Now for those who don't know you, you are a lead.
Let me just, I have a list.
You are a leadership trainer, aninternational speaker, author of
three books.
Well obviously internationalspeaker, we're here.
Author of three books, chair ofthe board at 3d movements,
co-host a podcast called leadstories, founder of the Erza
collective.
(00:50):
I'm not, or I'm not sure.
How do you have any time in yourlife?
Jo Saxton (00:54):
Well, I don't do all of those things all at all, all
the time.
So, um, so yeah, I stepped downfrom the board maybe a year just
about.
Last summer, I don't know whatday it is.
I don't know the day and I don'tknow the season, so I can't even
say when it happened, but it didhappen, I promise.
Yes.
(01:15):
Um, well you know, like withmost things, I think most people
wear a lot of hats really.
I just don't do them all at onceand I don't do them all for a
sustained period of time.
James (01:22):
Yeah, right.
Well that's fair enough.
Well for those who don't know,you just arrived this morning.
Jo Saxton (01:26):
Yes, yes I did.
And the plane was delayed so wemissed it.
I don't know.
We're meant to get hereyesterday.
We got here today and hopefullysome of our bags will arrive
later today.
James (01:38):
I think you missed a day as well.
Jo Saxton (01:39):
Yeah, we missed the day anyway, so we missed the
day.
We're delayed today andeverything.
James (01:43):
It's all over the place.
It's all over the place.
Yeah, it's hard to keep track.
Jo Saxton (01:47):
What country am I in?
James (01:48):
Austria.
I think you read the planeticket wrong.
Jo Saxton (01:49):
That'd be so weird.
James (01:56):
You're originally from the UK?
Jo Saxton (01:58):
I am, yes.
James (01:58):
When did you move to the States?
(02:00):
I moved about 15 years ago.
Yeah.
Initially to Phoenix.
That was warm.
Yes.
We um, w e moved to work.
It was al most a bit like achurch swap.
Um, e xcept I don't know thatthey se nd p eople an yway,
there ar e a number of teamswent to work with this church.
They were looking at how theycould transition the model of
their church to incorporatediscipleship more and being more
(02:23):
intentional about mission.
Th e v ery hard, it was veryhard.
I think there wa s s o much, Ithink it took me five years to
realize, Oh no, I knew I didn'tknow stuff about America, but I
didn't quite know the de pth.
And then 10 years to think, Ohnow I know what I don't know.
I th ink i t took quite a whilenow, 15 years and I'm just like,
wow man.
James (02:42):
Are you still figuring stuff out?
Jo Saxton (02:44):
Cause I think, I don't know whether, you know
like Australia is huge.
Yeah.
So I'm imagining that Perth as aculture and everything can be
actually quite different toplaces.
Would that be fair?
I felt like the U S is likeseven countries, seven countries
and, and what you can do in oneplace is the very opposite of
what you can do in another.
And um, yeah, I mean it's just ajourney of discovery.
James (03:08):
Now you, you are well qualified to talk on many, many
topics.
And uh, over my research I'veseen you talk at vast amount in
varying, you know, churches anddenominations.
And one of the topics I've I'veseen you passionately speak
about is a discipleship.
Jo Saxton (03:23):
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
James (03:24):
Why, why do you think discipleship is so important?
Jo Saxton (03:26):
Well, um, in the context of faith, Jesus told us
to, and um, and I think they'rehis marching orders.
You know, that his last wordsare like your marching orders.
And that's all he invited peopleinto.
He said he would make disciples.
He invited people to be hisdisciples.
And I think, I mean, we havethis luxury in this chapter of
history to think of all thedifferent things we're called to
(03:48):
do and all the different placesthat we could be and where we'd
go because of technology and,and transport.
And all that kind of stuff.
But wherever we are, we'realways called to make disciples
and, and that, that it's a wordfor all of us.
So to that end, I'm like, Ireally want to know how to do
that.
Right.
You know, I may speak sometimes,I may not others I'm like, yeah,
like the list of things, thosethings will change with every
(04:09):
chapter in season of my life.
But the discipleship one is onefor every chapter.
And I think it, I think we, whenwe understand what discipleship
is, we, um, we live more fullyas Christians.
James (04:23):
Hmm.
Well, one of my favorite partsin, uh, this book,'The Dream of
You'
Jo Saxton (04:27):
thank you for the shameless plug there.
Thank you very much.
I receive it.
James (04:33):
Now obviously I could tell this book wasn't written
directly to me.
As, you know, it's constantlytalking about women, but that's
fine.
There so many things thathonestly everyone can learn from
the book.
One of my favorite parts is, iswhere you talk about how you can
make disciples in whateversituation you're in.
Uh, you can turn the tide in, inyour family and your community
in your workplace.
Uh, how do, how do you see thattransforming people in your
(04:55):
everyday life?
Jo Saxton (04:56):
Yeah, well, I'm mindful of like, I like do an
audit if who's in my life fromtime to time just to sit, not
because I'm getting rid of it.
I guess I'm asking myself thequestion, what does it mean to
be Jesus to these people?
You know?
Um, if, if I am the onlyrepresentative that they know of
(05:18):
faith, am I, am I a good one oram I doing damage?
You know, um, and like thosewere the people in my life
permanently.
But also the people I pass bywith like when I'm in Starbucks
or Target, God bless the place,or wherever I am, I have an
opportunity to be a walking,talking overflow of the kingdom
of heaven.
And so making disciples that thewhole thing about discipleship
(05:39):
means a student, an apprentice.
And so I, I want to be sure inmy language, in my relationships
that I am, I'm trying to walkthe way of Jesus and, and
illustrating what that lookslike.
We're trying to be livingexamples of what it means to
follow Jesus.
And that's my hope when Mike, Ihave a tweenager and a teenager,
(05:59):
which means that they havefriends who come over and kind
of graze in our kitchen and justleaving, do you know, like
termites and just sweep through.
I looked and thought you'renever leaving children are you?
Ever.
Any of them.
Um, but I, I just thought, youknow, I want it to be a safe
place for these kids.
And that doesn't mean like everytime I sit down and say, tell me
your issues, that will happen,but I want it.
(06:22):
I want it to be a home wherethey can always think like, OK.
um, when they think ofChristians, they think, Oh, they
don't think of bigotry or um,self-centeredness or many other
things, which sadly are allrealities.
They think of welcome and theythink of love and they think of
grace and they think, you knowwhat I mean, those sorts of
(06:43):
things.
And, and we don't, that doesn'tcome from just what we say.
Those things are caught as wellas taught.
And, and Jesus, like heembodied, he, he embodied good
news with his words, with hisactions, with everything.
He, what does it say in TheMessage version of John 1:14,
the word became flesh and movedinto the neighborhood.
And I, and I feel like asChristians we move into the
(07:04):
neighborhoods we're already in,we're sent to the lines we
already have.
And then I'm going, then I'masking what do we do with that?
James (07:11):
Can you think of one thing or maybe a couple of
things that the church iscurrently doing poorly about
discipleship?
Jo Saxton (07:17):
I think there are many things that we could say,
and it's hard because differentparts of the world have
different journeys.
But I would say for the West,one of the things I would
encourage us to think of is thedegree to that we've made
discipleship purely aboutinstruction and we've made it a
didactic process.
And it's not that, that's notpart of it because we see that
(07:40):
with Jesus.
But there are, there's a wholeload of other things that aren't
just the instruction on thecourse and the program and the
class.
And I think what we can, I thinkwe can set ourselves up for
heartbreak as leaders, as, aschurches when we're like, you
know, I taught them all thisstuff, how come they're not
living it?
And it's like, well, becausethat's a slice of discipleship.
(08:01):
It's not the whole ofdiscipleship.
So if you don't put all theingredients in the cake, you
don't get the cake that youplanned.
So it's not a chocolate cake ifyou didn't put any chocolate in
it, you know, all the, it'sstill a cake still cake.
And I.
James (08:13):
Just a disappointing cake.
Jo Saxton (08:14):
It's just, well ironically this is where the
thing falls apart cause I don'tlike chocolate bar.
I like to offer that as anillustration because most people
do.
But I guess I would say if weare only doing one aspect of one
dimensional form ofdiscipleship, then we will get a
one dimensional form ofdisciple.
We can't help but, and that's no, that's no shade to the people
involved.
It's not that we don't do itwell, it's just, it's
(08:36):
incomplete.
James (08:37):
So what do you think the church has been doing well?
Jo Saxton (08:39):
I mean, I do think we have to respect the fact that
the church is still here.
The church is still here, Ithink.
And on one level we could sayit's not that I don't think
worship is wonderful, all ofthose things are wonderful, but
I, I, I think there's somethingphenomenal about the fact that
2000 years cross thedenominations there haven't, the
(09:00):
church has been, has, hasbuckled under pressure, it's
been corrupted at various times,but still there are still people
who will get up and proclaim thename of Jesus tomorrow and all
around the world.
I think there are in parts ofthe world where it's popular,
and parts of the world whereit's unpopular.
I think that is incredible.
I think that that the church,even in its weakness is trying
(09:20):
to point to Jesus.
That's incredible.
And um, and I think whenever thechurch and it may not be the
most glamorous way and it maynot be the most known way, but
whenever the church is reachingout to the lost, the last, the
least and the lonely, I thinkwe've got it.
I think we have to honour that.
I think it's a wonderful thingbecause it's, it's, people are
doing the best they can, youknow, with what they know.
(09:42):
I think that's good.
James (09:43):
That's fair enough.
Now my other favorite thing thatyou speak on a lot is women in
leadership.
Jo Saxton (09:48):
I thought you were gonna say target.
James (09:49):
Oh, Target.
Well, actually, you know, beforewe get to this, I would like to
make a note to anyone who'slistening.
Target in Australia issignificantly disappointing if
you compare it to the Americantarget.
Jo Saxton (10:00):
Real talk.
James (10:00):
When I went to the States for the first time I went to, I
went to target in the States andit blew my mind, the fact that I
could do grocery shopping andget clothes...
Pretty much anything that themind can imagine.
Jo Saxton (10:17):
A village under one roof.
James (10:19):
It is incredible.
You can eat there, there's food,they have hot food.
Yeah, you can get pizza.
What?
Anyway, I'm getting toodistracted and it's really, it's
so high up on my list.
Every time I go back to theStates and I'm visiting my
family in Canada and I'm like,Oh, I might make a pit stop at
the States so I can go toTarget.
Um, no, one of my favouritetopics is that you speak about
(10:40):
is women in ministry.
And you are very passionateabout seeing women rise up in
the church.
Why are you so passionate aboutthat?
Jo Saxton (10:49):
Um, I think some of it is a discipleship thing.
It's, and I, I'm aware thatthere is a framework of theory.
There's a range of theologicalconvictions.
And I'd say the same toeverybody.
Invest in your women because youare not going to see, I mean,
we, we're all played too.
We're all called to play ourpart in His great commission.
If you don't invest in people,they're not able to do it.
(11:10):
Um, obviously from the frameworkof, of where I'm at, when I see
the Deborah's and the Lydia'sand the Phoebe's and the
Priscilla's and the Junia's andothers in the Bible.
And I'm like, yeah.
And, and I, and we have womenwho are made in the image of God
with gifts and talents.
And, and I mean, I put, I don't,some would say it's a justice
(11:31):
issue.
I don't know.
I just think it's a theologicalone.
I think we see it in the Bible.
Let's do it.
Even if it's just to the degreethat we see women in the Bible
do what they do, let's do that.
It's just, you know, couldDeborah do what she could Miriam
do, um, today in our spaces?
I mean, we'd get loads of them.
And so I think some of it is, Isee women with gifts and talents
(11:51):
and call.
Um, and I think we can have anumber of responses.
We can shut it down.
Um, we could give lip service toit, but no actual investment.
And I think that's a painfulreality to say.
Yeah.
Not gonna do anything about itthough.
That doesn't help anybody.
Um, but I think of what is nothappening because we have lived
off half an army.
(12:12):
And what burden has that put onguys to do it all and be it all
and what's not happening?
What businesses aren't beinglaunched, what creative ventures
aren't happening, what churchesaren't being planted, who is
buckling under the pressure,stress and burnout because we
are, um, we're not all involved.
I mean, I, it just doesn't makesense.
James (12:32):
Yeah.
What do you think are the otherkey things that churches should
be doing to encourage theirwomen?
Jo Saxton (12:39):
Um, I think there are lots of things.
I think there are, there's aphrase by a woman called Marian
Wright Edelman, and she said,you can't be what you can't see.
And I think for women, if theydon't hear their stories, if
they don't hear themselves orsee themselves, it's very hard
to think of what's normal.
(13:00):
And it's hard when y ou'renormal has been, you see
yourself all the time and youknow, when you're, and you hear
you, you hear characters, whichsound like you or whatever.
Now I g et, I get loads out of every, i t's the Bible.
Of course I get loads out ofeverybody.
I'm just aware that we don'tpreach on Deborah very much or,
o r Priscilla o r P hoebe andall that kind of stuff, tell
their stories.
A nd u m, and it's not thatyou'd be amazed a t t he
(13:22):
relevance, not just for them.
I mean, not obviously they'refor men as well, but I think
that that's one thing what wecelebrate publicly, whether we
like it or not, is an accidentalendorsement.
So what do you want tocelebrate?
Um, are we giving peopleopportunities to grow, to fail?
Um, I think the challenge, andthis isn't easy for anybody, I
think there are many voicestelling all of us, men and women
(13:44):
what to do, but there is a lotculturally which says to women
that to have a voice is aproblematic thing to be strong
can be a problematic thing.
And, and it even varies fromethnicity to ethnicity as well
in terms of the culturalstereotypes.
And as a church we havesomething to say to that.
We are, we have the model of howJesus related to women.
Do we model that in the way wefunction and do we encourage,
(14:05):
you know, like Jesus had Joanna,Susanna and Mary travelling with
him and I and and as after they,they are transformed by him and
then they become part of theteam.
Are we living i nto that?
I think, I think we have massiveopportunities but if we don't
have, if women don't haveaccess, if they don't have
encouragement, access andopportunities to fail, then not
(14:27):
much will happen.
O h, and fail and succeed aswell.
James (14:29):
It is interesting.
It's sometimes a harsh realitywhen you think about churches,
sometimes they're notrepresenting the or giving women
the trust and leadership valuesthat they did even in the Bible.
I mean, who is, who wasentrusted with the information
that Jesus had risen the firstpeople who found out were women.
I love the fact that you arespeaking to that and I want you
(14:52):
to speak to women right now.
Jo Saxton (14:53):
Yes.
Hello!
James (14:55):
Hello women.
Now, what, what do you want tosay to them right now?
What would you like them to do?
Jo Saxton (15:00):
I would first of all say to you that, um, that God
sees you and he knows you andthat he made you with gifts and
talents and abilities thatyou're made in his image and
you're not an accident.
You're not accidentally gifted,you're not accidentally strong,
you're not accidentally ablethat they're wonderful things
(15:20):
and as such, um, to invest inthem, like to unwrap the gifts
which you've kept, kept hiddenfor a long time.
I would say surround yourselfwith people who see what you've
got to offer.
Um, and I would say go for it.
Um, it's not going to be easy,but not many of the best things
are.
Um, I would say to surroundyourself, whether it's digitally
(15:43):
or through books or resourcesthat can invest in those
qualities and those and thegifts you have, whether your
ministry is in the context ofthe church, whether your
ministries in the workplace.
Cause again, I mean, we've madethat separation not the Bible as
such, you know, most of, most ofthe, our biblical heroes that
jobs.
They had jobs and that's wherethey were living it.
Um, and I would just say you arehere for such a time as this,
(16:04):
and it's, you're not on, it'snot accidental and you're not
too strong and you're not toomuch.
I would encourage you to look upthe word, helper in the Hebrew.
Um, because it, and I'm notsaying this by some manipulation
of the text or anything likethat, and it's just, it's just
the word itself.
Um, to recognize it means somuch more than what we've
limited it to it as.
And, and to those of you whosay, you know what, I feel
(16:26):
really called to my husband andmy kids absolutely do it.
Do you know this isn't a kindof, Hey, right you are, raise up
from the chains of doing thosethings...
No, that's weird.
We don't need to be weird.
No n eed t o be w eird.
U m, I'm just encouraging us totake hold of what God has
designed us for and live itfully in his name.
And if that means God gives youa promotion whereby you are able
(16:47):
to create an ethical workplace,do it rather than say, should I
be there because I'm a woman?
Y eah, you should.
You're a representative of thekingdom of God.
And if God has called you topreach, and if God h as called
you to write songs, h e's calledyou to raise your kids or raise
your kids kids as a g randma,whatever it is, just give it
all.
You know?
W e, I think often with women,what I found is that, u m,
(17:10):
skills are r arely the issue.
It's confidence and the, thebattle that women have to f ight
in their minds before they evensay they're called because they,
I mean, t here a re magazineswhich are digitally structured
to make us feel inadequate sothat we s pend o ur money on
stuff and that's there.
There are kids h aven't d onegoing on diets at age eight.
And so there is a lot pumped inour mindsets from, from a very
(17:34):
early age of what we're meant tobe, to be worthy and what we
have to offer.
And it's never about our minds.
You know what I mean?
It's n ot a bout, Oh, y ou'vegot a way with science.
N o, that's n ot t heir thing.
U m, but God has a bigger wordfor you and, u m, and a
wonderful purpose for you.
And he sees all those things inyour mind, but have the courage
(17:54):
to begin to step out.
James (17:57):
God's word and vision is not superficial.
Jo Saxton (17:58):
No, not at all.
It's, it's, I mean, it's, it'sintense, man.
James (18:03):
So women, that's, uh, that's your call.
That is definitely your call.
Now, can you recommend anyresources besides your three
wonderful books.
Are there any other resourcesthat you'd recommend?
Jo Saxton (18:16):
Um, I tend to, I tend to, where do I go?
Podcasts, the great.
Oh yeah.
Thank you.
Lead Stories.
Um, me and a friend called Stephdo that, but I would, I would
probably, I mean for me in termsof leadership stuff, I actually
look at a lot of business thingsas well.
So like Harvard Business Reviewand stuff like that have been
real helpful.
(18:36):
Um, I would look at theChristian leaders they admire
and see what resources are outthere and just go, but go on the
internet, see the podcasts andthe blog posts and things like
that.
Um, the kind of women who aredoing things that you, you're
interested in doing, startthere.
James (18:50):
That's great.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forcoming in.
Jo Saxton (18:52):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
James (18:53):
Enjoy the rest of your time here and, uh, buy the book.
And uh, hopefully we'll speaksoon.
Jo Saxton (19:00):
Thank you.
James (19:01):
For more information and resources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
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