November 30, 2019 • 21 mins
Peter Chandra is a volunteer consultant at New Life Fellowship in Cambodia. Peter has been involved with missions work for many years across multiple countries. Having seen mixed results after missions groups and churches had completed their work, Peter felt challenged to rethink how we approach missions work and how the church can provide true help.
Links:
We Are Not The Hero
When Helping Hurts
Toxic Charity: How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help And How to Reverse It
Cambodia Outreach
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter (00:00):
Cambodia is just wide open.
I mean that's the exciting thingabout being in Cambodia.
You can't just go somewhere,pitch up at a, put a microphone
up and preach the gospel andyou're okay.
You're allowed
James (00:12):
From CityLife church.
I'm James Wright.
This is contrast theory.
Okay.
Well my guest today is PeterChandra.
He is a volunteer consultant atnew life fellowship in Cambodia.
Uh, for, for those who may notknow you, do you want to tell a
bit about yourself?
Peter (00:32):
Yeah, so a, I originally come from Singapore.
Um, then I studied in the UK,got married there, I lived there
for 25 years, then came toAustralia in 2000 and that's
where I got involved with citylife.
And uh, in 2004 I got to knownew life fellowship, which is
one of the, the key, um, to thelife will impact partners there.
And I've been sending and havingteams going to Cambodia for, for
(00:57):
14 years now.
But two and a half years ago mywife and I, uh, decided to move
to Cambodia to really be on theground.
You know, we've been doing shortterm teams, uh, but really, uh,
new life is such an excitingchurch and, uh, we were called a
new season to be involved withthem.
What was that move like?
(01:17):
Um, I guess, you know, there area lot of changes, um, but even
at a young age I've always beencalled to help the poor.
So since since I was a teenager,I guess the question that has
always been on my mind is as aChristian, how do I help the
poor?
Um, so I've always in one sensebeen involved with missions.
(01:38):
So, so my first mission trip wasto Haiti in, in university.
Uh, since then I've been toUganda, Mozambique, India,
Malaysia, um, various sort ofteams as well.
So really coming to Cambodia was, um, just a natural progression
of helping encourage planningbut also, uh, in a developing
(01:58):
country.
James (01:59):
How did, how did those early missions trips kind of
shape your view of a missionstrips?
Cause they're all around theworld,
Peter (02:06):
I guess a quite substantial area, which is why I
guess we go to mission, we sendteams in short term teams.
You know, just to get, uh, anexposure.
But I, but I distinctly remembermy first mission team was, uh,
like I said, my first year atuniversity and, um, this was in
England, but we were involvedwith cheer, fun until fun, was
(02:26):
asking for a team, uh, to cometo, um, Haiti.
So, um, uh, and it was veryinteresting because I'm not good
with my hands.
So, you know, all of the missionteams at that time was about
construction work, buildingdormitories and so on.
So the first time we saw itbeing advertised was a, a team
that was not doing construction.
So we all signed up.
So all of us in the team, youknow, uh, we're not keen about
(02:49):
construction.
Uh, we had an orientation inEngland and we arrived in Haiti
and, uh, the missionary met uson the ground and said, ah, my
construction team.
So for two months we werebuilding a dormitory, but he was
a very good, um, coach.
Yeah.
Um, and I guess the first lessonI learned about missions is
(03:09):
that, you know, don't thinkyou'd be doing what you think
you're doing or you, you've beenasked to do because things
change so fast.
Uh, so I said lesson was to beflexible and adaptable.
Um, the second thing that reallyimpacted me was during those
three buttons.
You know, I stayed with, uh, uh,a missionary, American family, I
in American food pizza about ajam, you know, uh, I was
(03:32):
involved in American missioncompound and I asked the
question, you know, how, how arewe being effective with regards
to the, the local people on theground.
Now having said that, it's nocriticism because again, um, you
know, they were involved withthe mission hospital, uh, but it
was a very much an Americanlifestyle in such a poor
environment.
(03:53):
Um, so that really, uh, startedmore questions than answers.
And it was a, it was, I think itwas very critical in me asking
what is true help.
James (04:04):
Have you found that kind of attitude is, uh, kind of
across Christian churches aroundthe world or, or do you, did you
feel it was more just thatspecific community?
Peter (04:14):
I think it, uh, I think people come over, but we're not
aware that they're doing it.
You know, I don't think he wasany sinister intent and so on.
It's just that, you know, bydefinition we are who we are and
so we become to another country,you know, we are who we guide.
So, you know, whatever theirculture is, we bring it along.
(04:35):
But I guess what is importantthough is that if you're in a,
in a, in a cross culturalsetting, uh, we've got to ask
the questions, you know, what isrelevant, what is not relevant?
You know, what is cultural, whatis biblical?
I mean those are all very hardquestions.
There's no right and wrong.
Uh, particularly when you thinkabout biblical, uh, lifestyle
versus Western lifestyle versusan Eastern lifestyle.
(04:57):
And unless we are able todifferentiate it and be clear
about it, people on the groundget confused, you know, so it'd
be she's why we have such aprevalent view that, you know,
Christianity's is the Western.
Uh, because I guess what we'vedone unconsciously is we've,
we've, um, projected Christianculture has Western culture.
James (05:19):
What do you think are some of the fundamentals that
Christians may get wrong aboutmissions work?
Peter (05:24):
What we fail to recognize is that even in developing
countries, progress has takenplace at an incredible pace.
And what was the classical viewof missionary work?
A historic S change and needs tochange?
Uh, so what was valued, youknow, a hundred years ago, 40
years ago, um, whereby, youknow, early missionaries are
(05:45):
brought in in education, but, uh, you know, legal systems and so
on, which was a really good andimportant, um, things have
developed further.
You know, now we're in a globalage, we're in the internet age
and so on.
And so even what is Easternculture, because even
intrepreneur campaign, you know,all of them are looking at
Western clothes cause in musicand songs as well.
So, so we need to recognize thatthings are changing
(06:08):
tremendously.
Um, so I guess, um, I liked thefirst lesson we have to be
flexible and really ask God andhis spirit to guide us and
leaders in an inappropriate way.
James (06:21):
Can you think of any specific activities or programs
that may be more harmful than,than do good?
Peter (06:27):
Yeah, I, you know, I, um, I think one of the tendencies is
, uh, and, and again, you know,it comes out a good heart.
You know, from the West, we dohave more resources.
We do have more finances.
And in the East, when we look atthese places prefer, you know,
especially in, in poor places,uh, there is in the finance.
(06:47):
So, so one of the instinctivethings that we want to do first
is just give money.
Um, however, you know, thequestion is not whether we give
or not give money.
The question is how do we giveit wisely?
Uh, so, uh, and in some ways thetendency as well as there were
in and out.
So we usually just give money,say, you know, bless you.
And then off we go.
(07:07):
But if we don't do it in theproper way, we don't think about
ownership, we don't think aboutsustainability, we don't think
about responsibility,accountability.
Uh, then that's where the dangeris.
So the question is, you know,how, how do we go about giving
them money?
Uh, and, uh, just as an exampleof how, uh, it can be
detrimental, um, is that, youknow, we always talk about, Oh,
(07:30):
let's go and you know, in, inCambodia, let's go and visit the
slum kids.
Okay.
So we see them, you know, the[inaudible] India, um, you know,
collecting recyclables and Soniain order to earn a living.
So our heart goes to them and,you know, we, we give them money
and, you know, of course theyvery grateful and we feel very
great.
You know, we feel very blessedbecause we've been able to, to
(07:51):
help them.
Um, however, what is, uh, happenin most cases is that they now
become dependent on short termteams coming over with hiring
and giving them.
And when we try to introduceprograms that says, look, let me
help you to develop a skill sothat you don't have to depend on
handouts.
Um, you know, but you have goodaccount for some classes.
(08:13):
You got to do some learning.
And he a responsible, uh, wehave cute when he come back and
he says, Oh, why should we dothat?
All right, we'll just go, youknow, another NGO will come and
give us money.
So, so you didn't say, well,okay, so whose fault is it?
Yeah.
James (08:28):
Ah, it reminds me of a, I took a trip to Cambodia and we
went to the, Oh, what was it?
The Tuol Sleng prison.
And, but there, there were somepeople on the outside who, uh,
would, I can't remember,deformed in some sort of way.
And when we were there, when wewere walking past them, they
were very, uh, very, you know,needy and begging for money.
(08:49):
And we were told by the peoplethat were taking us to just
ignore them, keep walking.
And when I turned around afterwe'd, they stood up, they were
just kind of chatting with theirfriends.
They were laughing
Peter (08:56):
unfortunately though, you know, there is the minority.
So, so if you went through theexperience, the natural, uh, uh,
repercussion is, you know, yeah,I shouldn't be giving any money,
but again, there's a lot ofother people there are really
[inaudible].
So that's why my suggestion is,you know, really do the homework
(09:16):
to find out which organizationsI involved in.
The long run is on the groundthere.
Then the long run, they havethought through those questions
of ownership, accountability,sustainability.
Uh, so, so I guess my, my, myum, my comment is give money,
but give it wisely, do thehomework, do the research.
(09:37):
Um, find out which organizationshave got track record and has
got ways.
And to me, a very important withfor me now is sustainability.
Um, so let me give you anexample.
Uh, you know, water is veryprecious.
So, you know, the whole area ofdigging Wells, providing fresh
water, clean water is crucialbecause clean water really, you
(09:58):
know, wipes out wanted the, the,the, the, the problems.
Medical problems.
Okay.
So, so clean freshwater isimportant.
Um, a few months ago we went andvisited the village.
There was a well that, uh, thatthe church had dug, um, but it
wasn't working right.
So we talked to the pastor andsay, look, why, why is it not
working?
Oh, you know, uh, one of theparts that broken down, all
(10:20):
right, so we say, why don't youget it fixed?
He said, yeah, I got it fixed.
And then the kids were playingand then it broke again.
So we then say, why don't youput a fence around so that the
kids don't play with it?
Um, so that doesn't get verydone.
Oh, it's just too hot, you know?
Uh, so I just didn't bother.
So we asked the question, well,so what happened to those people
that needed the water or they'vegot to buy the water somewhere
(10:42):
else?
Okay.
So, so what struck me was this,we gave him the, well, we gave
him the money, we dig the well,he had nothing invested in that
well.
So when he broke down, he willlook to the end and said, fix
it.
Alright, and whose fault is it?
Is our fault.
Yeah.
(11:02):
So, so now we're saying if we'regoing to help you with the,
well, you got to put in yourpart of the, the player as well.
All right.
So the whole issue about jointresponsibility working together
in partnership so that theybuild, they feel they've put in
sweat and tears into it.
They are also invested in it, inthe whole area of, of ownership.
(11:25):
That's that one.
Now we're looking at how do wethen provide a, a reason
incentive for him to make sureit's working well and providing
water and so on.
So now we're embarking onproject that says, not only will
we helped you with the well andso on, but we wanna teach you
how to sell the water becausepeople do buy water and people
will pay for water, right?
(11:47):
So we will teach you how to sellthe water.
So now you have an incomestream, right?
They will provide you withincome as well.
Um, so that there's asustainability plan and guess
what, if it breaks down, you'renot having any income so you
will fix it.
So yeah.
So I was thinking, I hope he hasprogressed and we're now looking
at all of our projects to have asustainability income generation
(12:10):
component.
James (12:12):
I've heard you speak before about uh, empowering
local people.
How do you feel that model kindof coincides with Western
churches wanting to help?
Peter (12:22):
The best we can help, I believe now from the Western
viewpoint is really buildingcapacity, training the trainers
and not doing it ourselves.
So there is a, a quite anacceptable, a methodology that's
already being used in Africa, inAsians on call, um, uh,
community health development orin other places is call church
(12:45):
and community mobilization andtier[inaudible] emoji.
So we'll vision to yourcompassion all working towards
this methodology, whichfundamentally means don't assume
you know the answers when you goto a village.
Work with the village chief,work with the village community.
I if there isn't one afacilitate the forming of a
(13:06):
village committee but get thepastor involved as well.
So the past is seen as part andparcel of wanting to help the
village and let the villagecommittee tell us what they need
as opposed to us, uh, tellingthem what they need.
Right.
Uh, and then from there they,they see ownership and then work
(13:27):
away.
Whereby in partnership, uh, weprovide some funds, they provide
the manpower or whatever.
So that is a joint program.
But let the village decide onwhat's important.
Let me give you one specificexample that I heard in the
past.
Um, there's a, uh, an NGO comesto this village, you know,
notices, um, the issue ofsanitation and so on.
(13:51):
And they say, look, you know,we'll help you build toilets and
so on, which is reallyimportant, but the really
community says, no, actually wewant to road see what, you know,
I kind of, okay, but theprinciple is we let the religion
decide.
So they help the village build aroad.
When they build the road, theydiscover that this road is so
(14:11):
simple.
The track was instrumental inthis village being able to do
trade with the other villages.
And as a result of that, theywere able to sell their
vegetables, their goods.
And so they had income with thatincome.
They then built the toilets inthe schools since also the
villages know they need toiletsinside, but they knew what was
(14:32):
the critical critical path.
Right.
So we have to learn how to trustthe village community, come up
with what they need.
Is there anything specific that,uh, your church, new life
fellowship is doing?
Uh, or any programs that they'restarting that you are
particularly proud of?
Well, I think I'm, uh, I'm justproud of what new life
(14:54):
fellowship is doing in terms ofchurch planting.
So, so all of our communitydevelopment is all in the
context of church plantingbecause in the end, uh, the
gospel, the church is Jesus.
Um, answer in is our answer tothe world.
So whatever we do, even incommunity development is in the
context of church planting.
I've seen it as two, two sidesof a coin.
(15:17):
Um, so new life is justincredible in, uh, commitment
and excitement in, in plantingchurches.
So they've got a goal of 500churches by end of next year.
They're already coming to 300.
Um, what they've also made is adecision that all of the village
pastors have to bebi-vocational.
Cause you really, you know, youcan pay$50 every month for 500
people and you know, that's abig bill.
(15:38):
So the challenges as well is thehelping the pastor or the
congregation to have some smallbusinesses as well so that they
can have an income.
So, so in your life has got thefoundation and the livelihoods
is trying to help the pastors,you know, whether it's selling
water where there's chickens andso on, to be able to do more and
more of that and the trainingassociated with it.
(16:00):
Um, the other key thing that Ithink is very exciting about new
life is they have what we callcomplimentary education out in
the villages where we call newtransform lives.
Um, whereby each location hasgot 40 children.
We provide, uh, a nutritiousmeal for them and, uh, three
hours of complementary, uh,classes, whether it's[inaudible]
it English or you know, whateveris needed.
(16:22):
Uh, but has really been powerfulbecause education really is a
real key for the future of any,any country.
Um, so that is being, um, rolledout.
In one sense, they are the, themore uh, uh, funds we have, um,
we are able to do morelocations.
But again, with thesustainability a principle, we
have said that we will fund onlyfor three years and in the
(16:45):
fourth year they have to besustainable.
So we're giving them three yearsto start charging fees, even if
it's 10 cents, 50 cents.
So they're in the fourth year,their quality will be high
enough that they will be able toget enough revenue to sustain
them.
So we have said to the pastors,we will pull the plug in in year
four in terms of financesbecause again, we want you to be
(17:05):
sustainable.
But we know it works.
There's a another church wherethe pastor has got that mindset
and within two years we've hadenough money to pay for the
teachers to pay for the mealsand so on.
And uh, and the, the family isbenefiting the, the, the, the
families value the educationcause they're paying for it as
well.
Uh, so I, I think it is on theright track.
James (17:27):
I know sometimes when, when people go into other
countries and try to do somesort of missions where they can
come into some, some culturalchallenges where they are
unaware of maybe a, a certainhistory, um, that may be, you
know, at that may affectsomething that they want to do
or, or maybe, yeah, maybethere's an underlying cultural
difference in terms of, uh,something looked down upon.
(17:51):
Have you found in your currentjourney in Cambodia, uh,
anything like that?
So maybe it's scars from theKhmer Rouge era or just the
constant development of tryingto catch up with Western
civilization?
Peter (18:05):
Yeah, I think, you know, particularly with Cambodia, we
do recognize that the KhmerRouge and what has happened in,
so one quarter of the populationbeing killed and the critical
population in terms of theacademics, the business people
has really meant that thecountry has got a long way more
to go in terms of chasing upwith the rest of Southeast Asia.
Um, but also, you know, the newgeneration, I don't know, but
(18:30):
the common route actually it'squite interesting, you know, but
they are now, you know, veryhopeful for the future.
So yes, for us coming in, we doneed to appreciate, uh, the
background, which is where andwhy.
Um, there's still a lot more forthem to cover, but the, the
situation is awful.
You know, there are, you know,Cambodia is growing 6.5% GDP
(18:53):
projected for the next threeyears.
There's three times faster thanAustralia.
So there's, you know, there'slots of progress happening.
Um, but we need to, to work inpartnership with them.
And you know, I always use theword partnership, which is a win
win for both sides.
James (19:08):
How have you found the, uh, Christian persecution in
Southeast Asia?
Is as, is it a substantial inany of the countries that you've
been in or has it been okay,
Peter (19:18):
one of the, uh, and, and most people don't appreciate
that in Cambodia.
You can go anywhere in Cambodiaand preach the gospel and that's
amazing.
You can do that in Vietnambecause the community's country
you can do in Laos, Thailand,you know,[inaudible] is a really
strong call in sort of Buddhism.
A MyEmma because of the heritageis very difficult to, to get
(19:39):
there.
So out of Southeast Asia,Cambodia is just wide open.
I mean, that's the excitingthing about being in Cambodia.
You can't just go somewherepizza, but, uh, put a microphone
up and preach the gospel andyou're okay, you are allowed.
Right?
Um, so we really have a windowof opportunity in Cambodia.
You can go and preach anywhereas long as you don't talk
(20:00):
politics, you know, we have tobe sensitive to that, but God
has opened that door.
Uh, but we don't know how longthat had been.
There will be open.
So my view is there, let's thisreally go as much as we can in
God's favor.
Whilst the opportunities open.
James (20:14):
What sort of resources would you recommend to people
who are interested in thesesorts of areas?
Peter (20:19):
Well, I, I myself, I've, you know, I'm reading a book
called, um, we are not the hero,but Jean Johnston and she
herself had spent 16 years inCambodia and now back in the
States, really grappling withthe issue of how do we help, um,
uh, and have a true partnership.
So I would say that's anincredible book to look at where
there is, uh, we are not theheroes.
(20:40):
The other two books is calledwhen helping hurts, um, that
does a, a more theological, um,the first half is a theological
view about poverty.
Um, and also how then we candifferentiate between relief,
development and partnership.
And then the third one calledtoxic charity is war stories of
(21:00):
how, uh, you know, out of aright attitude though we've
caused a lot of damage and, andhow do we reverse that?
So those are the three booksthat has really impacted me and
I would recommend people to havea look.
James (21:12):
Well, Peter, it's been amazing having you here.
Thank you so much for coming totalk to me.
Is there any, is there anywebsite that you would like to
plug right now?
Peter (21:20):
Yup.
Um, the new life fellowship, awebsite is called Cambodia
outreach.org and that will giveyou all the various activities
that Newlife does, but also, uh,the, the, the various projects
and initiatives that we'reinvolved with.
So that's the English version ofthe website.
That sounds great.
All right, well, thank you somuch and I hope you enjoy the
(21:41):
rest of your time here.
Yep.
Thank you very much.
James (21:45):
For more information and resources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
[inaudible].
Cambodia is just wide open.
I mean that's the exciting thingabout being in Cambodia.
You can't just go somewhere,pitch up at a, put a microphone
up and preach the gospel andyou're okay.
You're allowed
James (00:12):
From CityLife church.
I'm James Wright.
This is contrast theory.
Okay.
Well my guest today is PeterChandra.
He is a volunteer consultant atnew life fellowship in Cambodia.
Uh, for, for those who may notknow you, do you want to tell a
bit about yourself?
Peter (00:32):
Yeah, so a, I originally come from Singapore.
Um, then I studied in the UK,got married there, I lived there
for 25 years, then came toAustralia in 2000 and that's
where I got involved with citylife.
And uh, in 2004 I got to knownew life fellowship, which is
one of the, the key, um, to thelife will impact partners there.
And I've been sending and havingteams going to Cambodia for, for
(00:57):
14 years now.
But two and a half years ago mywife and I, uh, decided to move
to Cambodia to really be on theground.
You know, we've been doing shortterm teams, uh, but really, uh,
new life is such an excitingchurch and, uh, we were called a
new season to be involved withthem.
What was that move like?
(01:17):
Um, I guess, you know, there area lot of changes, um, but even
at a young age I've always beencalled to help the poor.
So since since I was a teenager,I guess the question that has
always been on my mind is as aChristian, how do I help the
poor?
Um, so I've always in one sensebeen involved with missions.
(01:38):
So, so my first mission trip wasto Haiti in, in university.
Uh, since then I've been toUganda, Mozambique, India,
Malaysia, um, various sort ofteams as well.
So really coming to Cambodia was, um, just a natural progression
of helping encourage planningbut also, uh, in a developing
(01:58):
country.
James (01:59):
How did, how did those early missions trips kind of
shape your view of a missionstrips?
Cause they're all around theworld,
Peter (02:06):
I guess a quite substantial area, which is why I
guess we go to mission, we sendteams in short term teams.
You know, just to get, uh, anexposure.
But I, but I distinctly remembermy first mission team was, uh,
like I said, my first year atuniversity and, um, this was in
England, but we were involvedwith cheer, fun until fun, was
(02:26):
asking for a team, uh, to cometo, um, Haiti.
So, um, uh, and it was veryinteresting because I'm not good
with my hands.
So, you know, all of the missionteams at that time was about
construction work, buildingdormitories and so on.
So the first time we saw itbeing advertised was a, a team
that was not doing construction.
So we all signed up.
So all of us in the team, youknow, uh, we're not keen about
(02:49):
construction.
Uh, we had an orientation inEngland and we arrived in Haiti
and, uh, the missionary met uson the ground and said, ah, my
construction team.
So for two months we werebuilding a dormitory, but he was
a very good, um, coach.
Yeah.
Um, and I guess the first lessonI learned about missions is
(03:09):
that, you know, don't thinkyou'd be doing what you think
you're doing or you, you've beenasked to do because things
change so fast.
Uh, so I said lesson was to beflexible and adaptable.
Um, the second thing that reallyimpacted me was during those
three buttons.
You know, I stayed with, uh, uh,a missionary, American family, I
in American food pizza about ajam, you know, uh, I was
(03:32):
involved in American missioncompound and I asked the
question, you know, how, how arewe being effective with regards
to the, the local people on theground.
Now having said that, it's nocriticism because again, um, you
know, they were involved withthe mission hospital, uh, but it
was a very much an Americanlifestyle in such a poor
environment.
(03:53):
Um, so that really, uh, startedmore questions than answers.
And it was a, it was, I think itwas very critical in me asking
what is true help.
James (04:04):
Have you found that kind of attitude is, uh, kind of
across Christian churches aroundthe world or, or do you, did you
feel it was more just thatspecific community?
Peter (04:14):
I think it, uh, I think people come over, but we're not
aware that they're doing it.
You know, I don't think he wasany sinister intent and so on.
It's just that, you know, bydefinition we are who we are and
so we become to another country,you know, we are who we guide.
So, you know, whatever theirculture is, we bring it along.
(04:35):
But I guess what is importantthough is that if you're in a,
in a, in a cross culturalsetting, uh, we've got to ask
the questions, you know, what isrelevant, what is not relevant?
You know, what is cultural, whatis biblical?
I mean those are all very hardquestions.
There's no right and wrong.
Uh, particularly when you thinkabout biblical, uh, lifestyle
versus Western lifestyle versusan Eastern lifestyle.
(04:57):
And unless we are able todifferentiate it and be clear
about it, people on the groundget confused, you know, so it'd
be she's why we have such aprevalent view that, you know,
Christianity's is the Western.
Uh, because I guess what we'vedone unconsciously is we've,
we've, um, projected Christianculture has Western culture.
James (05:19):
What do you think are some of the fundamentals that
Christians may get wrong aboutmissions work?
Peter (05:24):
What we fail to recognize is that even in developing
countries, progress has takenplace at an incredible pace.
And what was the classical viewof missionary work?
A historic S change and needs tochange?
Uh, so what was valued, youknow, a hundred years ago, 40
years ago, um, whereby, youknow, early missionaries are
(05:45):
brought in in education, but, uh, you know, legal systems and so
on, which was a really good andimportant, um, things have
developed further.
You know, now we're in a globalage, we're in the internet age
and so on.
And so even what is Easternculture, because even
intrepreneur campaign, you know,all of them are looking at
Western clothes cause in musicand songs as well.
So, so we need to recognize thatthings are changing
(06:08):
tremendously.
Um, so I guess, um, I liked thefirst lesson we have to be
flexible and really ask God andhis spirit to guide us and
leaders in an inappropriate way.
James (06:21):
Can you think of any specific activities or programs
that may be more harmful than,than do good?
Peter (06:27):
Yeah, I, you know, I, um, I think one of the tendencies is
, uh, and, and again, you know,it comes out a good heart.
You know, from the West, we dohave more resources.
We do have more finances.
And in the East, when we look atthese places prefer, you know,
especially in, in poor places,uh, there is in the finance.
(06:47):
So, so one of the instinctivethings that we want to do first
is just give money.
Um, however, you know, thequestion is not whether we give
or not give money.
The question is how do we giveit wisely?
Uh, so, uh, and in some ways thetendency as well as there were
in and out.
So we usually just give money,say, you know, bless you.
And then off we go.
(07:07):
But if we don't do it in theproper way, we don't think about
ownership, we don't think aboutsustainability, we don't think
about responsibility,accountability.
Uh, then that's where the dangeris.
So the question is, you know,how, how do we go about giving
them money?
Uh, and, uh, just as an exampleof how, uh, it can be
detrimental, um, is that, youknow, we always talk about, Oh,
(07:30):
let's go and you know, in, inCambodia, let's go and visit the
slum kids.
Okay.
So we see them, you know, the[inaudible] India, um, you know,
collecting recyclables and Soniain order to earn a living.
So our heart goes to them and,you know, we, we give them money
and, you know, of course theyvery grateful and we feel very
great.
You know, we feel very blessedbecause we've been able to, to
(07:51):
help them.
Um, however, what is, uh, happenin most cases is that they now
become dependent on short termteams coming over with hiring
and giving them.
And when we try to introduceprograms that says, look, let me
help you to develop a skill sothat you don't have to depend on
handouts.
Um, you know, but you have goodaccount for some classes.
(08:13):
You got to do some learning.
And he a responsible, uh, wehave cute when he come back and
he says, Oh, why should we dothat?
All right, we'll just go, youknow, another NGO will come and
give us money.
So, so you didn't say, well,okay, so whose fault is it?
Yeah.
James (08:28):
Ah, it reminds me of a, I took a trip to Cambodia and we
went to the, Oh, what was it?
The Tuol Sleng prison.
And, but there, there were somepeople on the outside who, uh,
would, I can't remember,deformed in some sort of way.
And when we were there, when wewere walking past them, they
were very, uh, very, you know,needy and begging for money.
(08:49):
And we were told by the peoplethat were taking us to just
ignore them, keep walking.
And when I turned around afterwe'd, they stood up, they were
just kind of chatting with theirfriends.
They were laughing
Peter (08:56):
unfortunately though, you know, there is the minority.
So, so if you went through theexperience, the natural, uh, uh,
repercussion is, you know, yeah,I shouldn't be giving any money,
but again, there's a lot ofother people there are really
[inaudible].
So that's why my suggestion is,you know, really do the homework
(09:16):
to find out which organizationsI involved in.
The long run is on the groundthere.
Then the long run, they havethought through those questions
of ownership, accountability,sustainability.
Uh, so, so I guess my, my, myum, my comment is give money,
but give it wisely, do thehomework, do the research.
(09:37):
Um, find out which organizationshave got track record and has
got ways.
And to me, a very important withfor me now is sustainability.
Um, so let me give you anexample.
Uh, you know, water is veryprecious.
So, you know, the whole area ofdigging Wells, providing fresh
water, clean water is crucialbecause clean water really, you
(09:58):
know, wipes out wanted the, the,the, the, the problems.
Medical problems.
Okay.
So, so clean freshwater isimportant.
Um, a few months ago we went andvisited the village.
There was a well that, uh, thatthe church had dug, um, but it
wasn't working right.
So we talked to the pastor andsay, look, why, why is it not
working?
Oh, you know, uh, one of theparts that broken down, all
(10:20):
right, so we say, why don't youget it fixed?
He said, yeah, I got it fixed.
And then the kids were playingand then it broke again.
So we then say, why don't youput a fence around so that the
kids don't play with it?
Um, so that doesn't get verydone.
Oh, it's just too hot, you know?
Uh, so I just didn't bother.
So we asked the question, well,so what happened to those people
that needed the water or they'vegot to buy the water somewhere
(10:42):
else?
Okay.
So, so what struck me was this,we gave him the, well, we gave
him the money, we dig the well,he had nothing invested in that
well.
So when he broke down, he willlook to the end and said, fix
it.
Alright, and whose fault is it?
Is our fault.
Yeah.
(11:02):
So, so now we're saying if we'regoing to help you with the,
well, you got to put in yourpart of the, the player as well.
All right.
So the whole issue about jointresponsibility working together
in partnership so that theybuild, they feel they've put in
sweat and tears into it.
They are also invested in it, inthe whole area of, of ownership.
(11:25):
That's that one.
Now we're looking at how do wethen provide a, a reason
incentive for him to make sureit's working well and providing
water and so on.
So now we're embarking onproject that says, not only will
we helped you with the well andso on, but we wanna teach you
how to sell the water becausepeople do buy water and people
will pay for water, right?
(11:47):
So we will teach you how to sellthe water.
So now you have an incomestream, right?
They will provide you withincome as well.
Um, so that there's asustainability plan and guess
what, if it breaks down, you'renot having any income so you
will fix it.
So yeah.
So I was thinking, I hope he hasprogressed and we're now looking
at all of our projects to have asustainability income generation
(12:10):
component.
James (12:12):
I've heard you speak before about uh, empowering
local people.
How do you feel that model kindof coincides with Western
churches wanting to help?
Peter (12:22):
The best we can help, I believe now from the Western
viewpoint is really buildingcapacity, training the trainers
and not doing it ourselves.
So there is a, a quite anacceptable, a methodology that's
already being used in Africa, inAsians on call, um, uh,
community health development orin other places is call church
(12:45):
and community mobilization andtier[inaudible] emoji.
So we'll vision to yourcompassion all working towards
this methodology, whichfundamentally means don't assume
you know the answers when you goto a village.
Work with the village chief,work with the village community.
I if there isn't one afacilitate the forming of a
(13:06):
village committee but get thepastor involved as well.
So the past is seen as part andparcel of wanting to help the
village and let the villagecommittee tell us what they need
as opposed to us, uh, tellingthem what they need.
Right.
Uh, and then from there they,they see ownership and then work
(13:27):
away.
Whereby in partnership, uh, weprovide some funds, they provide
the manpower or whatever.
So that is a joint program.
But let the village decide onwhat's important.
Let me give you one specificexample that I heard in the
past.
Um, there's a, uh, an NGO comesto this village, you know,
notices, um, the issue ofsanitation and so on.
(13:51):
And they say, look, you know,we'll help you build toilets and
so on, which is reallyimportant, but the really
community says, no, actually wewant to road see what, you know,
I kind of, okay, but theprinciple is we let the religion
decide.
So they help the village build aroad.
When they build the road, theydiscover that this road is so
(14:11):
simple.
The track was instrumental inthis village being able to do
trade with the other villages.
And as a result of that, theywere able to sell their
vegetables, their goods.
And so they had income with thatincome.
They then built the toilets inthe schools since also the
villages know they need toiletsinside, but they knew what was
(14:32):
the critical critical path.
Right.
So we have to learn how to trustthe village community, come up
with what they need.
Is there anything specific that,uh, your church, new life
fellowship is doing?
Uh, or any programs that they'restarting that you are
particularly proud of?
Well, I think I'm, uh, I'm justproud of what new life
(14:54):
fellowship is doing in terms ofchurch planting.
So, so all of our communitydevelopment is all in the
context of church plantingbecause in the end, uh, the
gospel, the church is Jesus.
Um, answer in is our answer tothe world.
So whatever we do, even incommunity development is in the
context of church planting.
I've seen it as two, two sidesof a coin.
(15:17):
Um, so new life is justincredible in, uh, commitment
and excitement in, in plantingchurches.
So they've got a goal of 500churches by end of next year.
They're already coming to 300.
Um, what they've also made is adecision that all of the village
pastors have to bebi-vocational.
Cause you really, you know, youcan pay$50 every month for 500
people and you know, that's abig bill.
(15:38):
So the challenges as well is thehelping the pastor or the
congregation to have some smallbusinesses as well so that they
can have an income.
So, so in your life has got thefoundation and the livelihoods
is trying to help the pastors,you know, whether it's selling
water where there's chickens andso on, to be able to do more and
more of that and the trainingassociated with it.
(16:00):
Um, the other key thing that Ithink is very exciting about new
life is they have what we callcomplimentary education out in
the villages where we call newtransform lives.
Um, whereby each location hasgot 40 children.
We provide, uh, a nutritiousmeal for them and, uh, three
hours of complementary, uh,classes, whether it's[inaudible]
it English or you know, whateveris needed.
(16:22):
Uh, but has really been powerfulbecause education really is a
real key for the future of any,any country.
Um, so that is being, um, rolledout.
In one sense, they are the, themore uh, uh, funds we have, um,
we are able to do morelocations.
But again, with thesustainability a principle, we
have said that we will fund onlyfor three years and in the
(16:45):
fourth year they have to besustainable.
So we're giving them three yearsto start charging fees, even if
it's 10 cents, 50 cents.
So they're in the fourth year,their quality will be high
enough that they will be able toget enough revenue to sustain
them.
So we have said to the pastors,we will pull the plug in in year
four in terms of financesbecause again, we want you to be
(17:05):
sustainable.
But we know it works.
There's a another church wherethe pastor has got that mindset
and within two years we've hadenough money to pay for the
teachers to pay for the mealsand so on.
And uh, and the, the family isbenefiting the, the, the, the
families value the educationcause they're paying for it as
well.
Uh, so I, I think it is on theright track.
James (17:27):
I know sometimes when, when people go into other
countries and try to do somesort of missions where they can
come into some, some culturalchallenges where they are
unaware of maybe a, a certainhistory, um, that may be, you
know, at that may affectsomething that they want to do
or, or maybe, yeah, maybethere's an underlying cultural
difference in terms of, uh,something looked down upon.
(17:51):
Have you found in your currentjourney in Cambodia, uh,
anything like that?
So maybe it's scars from theKhmer Rouge era or just the
constant development of tryingto catch up with Western
civilization?
Peter (18:05):
Yeah, I think, you know, particularly with Cambodia, we
do recognize that the KhmerRouge and what has happened in,
so one quarter of the populationbeing killed and the critical
population in terms of theacademics, the business people
has really meant that thecountry has got a long way more
to go in terms of chasing upwith the rest of Southeast Asia.
Um, but also, you know, the newgeneration, I don't know, but
(18:30):
the common route actually it'squite interesting, you know, but
they are now, you know, veryhopeful for the future.
So yes, for us coming in, we doneed to appreciate, uh, the
background, which is where andwhy.
Um, there's still a lot more forthem to cover, but the, the
situation is awful.
You know, there are, you know,Cambodia is growing 6.5% GDP
(18:53):
projected for the next threeyears.
There's three times faster thanAustralia.
So there's, you know, there'slots of progress happening.
Um, but we need to, to work inpartnership with them.
And you know, I always use theword partnership, which is a win
win for both sides.
James (19:08):
How have you found the, uh, Christian persecution in
Southeast Asia?
Is as, is it a substantial inany of the countries that you've
been in or has it been okay,
Peter (19:18):
one of the, uh, and, and most people don't appreciate
that in Cambodia.
You can go anywhere in Cambodiaand preach the gospel and that's
amazing.
You can do that in Vietnambecause the community's country
you can do in Laos, Thailand,you know,[inaudible] is a really
strong call in sort of Buddhism.
A MyEmma because of the heritageis very difficult to, to get
(19:39):
there.
So out of Southeast Asia,Cambodia is just wide open.
I mean, that's the excitingthing about being in Cambodia.
You can't just go somewherepizza, but, uh, put a microphone
up and preach the gospel andyou're okay, you are allowed.
Right?
Um, so we really have a windowof opportunity in Cambodia.
You can go and preach anywhereas long as you don't talk
(20:00):
politics, you know, we have tobe sensitive to that, but God
has opened that door.
Uh, but we don't know how longthat had been.
There will be open.
So my view is there, let's thisreally go as much as we can in
God's favor.
Whilst the opportunities open.
James (20:14):
What sort of resources would you recommend to people
who are interested in thesesorts of areas?
Peter (20:19):
Well, I, I myself, I've, you know, I'm reading a book
called, um, we are not the hero,but Jean Johnston and she
herself had spent 16 years inCambodia and now back in the
States, really grappling withthe issue of how do we help, um,
uh, and have a true partnership.
So I would say that's anincredible book to look at where
there is, uh, we are not theheroes.
(20:40):
The other two books is calledwhen helping hurts, um, that
does a, a more theological, um,the first half is a theological
view about poverty.
Um, and also how then we candifferentiate between relief,
development and partnership.
And then the third one calledtoxic charity is war stories of
(21:00):
how, uh, you know, out of aright attitude though we've
caused a lot of damage and, andhow do we reverse that?
So those are the three booksthat has really impacted me and
I would recommend people to havea look.
James (21:12):
Well, Peter, it's been amazing having you here.
Thank you so much for coming totalk to me.
Is there any, is there anywebsite that you would like to
plug right now?
Peter (21:20):
Yup.
Um, the new life fellowship, awebsite is called Cambodia
outreach.org and that will giveyou all the various activities
that Newlife does, but also, uh,the, the, the various projects
and initiatives that we'reinvolved with.
So that's the English version ofthe website.
That sounds great.
All right, well, thank you somuch and I hope you enjoy the
(21:41):
rest of your time here.
Yep.
Thank you very much.
James (21:45):
For more information and resources, check out the show
notes for today's episode.
[inaudible].
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