February 7, 2024 • 47 mins
Unlock the mysteries of ethical decision-making in coaching with the guidance of Yannick Jacob, coach and author, who brings his expertise to our table for a deep exploration of moral complexity. Let Yannick lead you through the philosophical terrain where rules are not just rules, but a series of vital, reflective questions that shape our integrity and effectiveness as coaches. Discover how a commitment to supervision and principled practice can profoundly elevate the space we hold for our clients, and why these ethical inquiries aren't just academic—they're the bedrock of trust in our professional relationships.
Yannick introduces us to the innovative coaching lab, a space for trainee coaches to observe and learn from the lived experiences of seasoned practitioners, blending theory with nuanced practice. Experience firsthand the adaptability required in coaching methods and how the seismic shift to online platforms during the pandemic has impacted the intimacy and dynamics of coaching sessions.
As we wrap up, we wade through the existential waters of the human condition, contemplating life's profound questions and the angst they stir within us. Join us for a rich dialogue that promises to not only enlighten your coaching practice but also challenge you to communicate complex concepts with clarity and grace.
Websites:
www.existential.coach
www.GoCoachingLab.com
www.RocketSupervision.com
Podcasts:
Yannick is the host of Animas Centre for Coaching's popular podcast Coaching Uncaged, as well as his own podcasts Talking about Coaching and Talking about Coaching and Psychedelics.
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hey there and welcome to Conversations where
today we have Yannick Jacob, whois a coach, trainer and
supervisor with a master'sdegree in existential coaching
and applied positive psychology.
He is part of the teachingfaculties at Cambridge
University, the InternationalCenter for Coaching Supervision,
(00:20):
and he's the course director ofthe School of Positive
Transformations, accreditedCertificate in Integrative
Coaching.
Yannick presents at conferencesinternationally and his book,
an Introduction to ExistentialCoaching, was published by
Rutledge, committed to helpingother coaches be the best
(00:42):
coaches they can be.
Yannick founded and hostsYannick's Coaching Lab, which
we're going to talk about, whichgives novice and seasoned
coaches an opportunity towitness experienced coaches live
in action.
He's a podcast host, whichwe're going to add those
definitely to the show notes sopeople can connect that way with
(01:02):
you.
And for all you strengths,enthusiasts, yannick leads with
adaptability, strategic relator,communication, responsibility
and woo.
Yannick, welcome to the showand where in the world are you
today?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Oh, kelly, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm in Berlin at the moment.
I'm based here now.
I'm always elsewhere.
Home is where you are, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That sure is.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I love Berlin, great vibe, great city.
If anybody hasn't been, Ireally invite to soak it in.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I would love to visit , I really would.
My mother's been there and Iwould love to visit someday, so
I will look you up and we canconnect.
Well, I reached out to you.
I saw you on LinkedIn and itwas something around ethics and
(02:08):
that really piqued my interest,especially as a coach, and I
know that there can be timeswhere it's a sticky place when
we think about ethics.
So I'd love for you maybe justto share a little bit about what
ethics means to you in coachingand why that's important for
coaches.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, there's a quote I really like about ethics
which is by Michael Carroll, whowrote a lot about ethics, and
it goes much is revealed about aperson's I would say a coach's
character by what appears ordoesn't appear as an ethical
decision.
And to me that has been so true.
(02:53):
What's an ethical decision?
Well, essentially we're talkingabout what's right, what's
wrong if we have it in thatpolarity.
But everybody who's beenthinking for five minutes about
what's right and what's wrongprobably realized it's a bit
more complex than that.
Very often as a huge amount ofgray, or it just depends on the
context.
(03:13):
It can be very challenging tonavigate.
And then also, by whatstandards do you decide right
and wrong?
The law, is it morals, culture?
Then culture isn't necessarilythe area where you live in or
the country you live in the partof the world.
But the house down the road hasa different culture.
(03:35):
The team next door has adifferent culture.
The classroom on the other sideof the hallway has a different
culture.
This friend group has adifferent culture to that friend
group.
This coaching relationship hasa different culture to that
coaching relationship.
So it's really very tricky tonavigate what's right and what's
wrong, what's the right thingto do here and I think one of
(03:58):
the things I want to saystraight from the bat that I
think is really helpful and alsomakes things more complex so
sorry, and you're welcome isthat ethics isn't a set of rules
to follow like the ICF's Codeof Ethics or AC MCC.
Every professional buddysubscribes to a code of conduct
that gives you some guidance onwhat's right and what's wrong,
(04:21):
what you should or shouldn't doin coaching.
But I think it's only helpfulas far it can offer some
guidance.
That gives you a bit of an idea, it draws a bit of a landscape,
but once we're in the messinessof everyday coaching scenarios
it can get tricky.
So I think thinking of ethicsas a set of questions you need
(04:45):
to ask yourself rather than aset of rules to follow, is super
helpful because that makescoaching a continuous inquiry
and that's why I've been flyingthe flag for supervision and I'm
enjoying the coaching lab somuch, because you get to dive
into these situations andreflect and explore why certain
(05:08):
decisions were made, and I loveasking questions.
That invites a coach toconsider why they have made
certain decisions.
When, back to the Carol quote,maybe they hadn't even thought
about that was a decision.
Maybe they hadn't recognizedthat they were making choices
here.
They're just kind of into itfrom one moment to the next, as
(05:30):
we often do as coaches.
So slowing down, maybe rollingthe tape back a little bit and
thinking about what have I donethere, what am I left with, what
choices do I make?
Where did these choices comefrom?
The more we do that, the morewe create a foundation of ethics
(05:51):
as a coach, maybe even work ona set of ethical principles that
we follow and that makes us somuch stronger and so much more
confident as coaches and thequality of the space that we
hold when we are grounded inthat kind of framework and that
kind of principled set, it'sjust very powerful and there's
(06:13):
an ease and the groundedness andthe quality of space that is
just lovely to be in thepresence of.
So I think it serves ourclients and all this.
They call this in coachingAbsolutely.
Go get me going right.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I think it's terrific and those are definitely words
of wisdom, and before I move onto what was sparked, I do want
to say that, if coaches have notbeen ever in supervision, it is
such an amazing place to be andto find out more about yourself
and to have people who arealigned with you, whether it's
(06:52):
one to one supervision or in agroup supervision really
important for coaches to be ableto step into that, and that's
something that I had never eventhought about until I started
with teams but individualcoaches, co-coaches, team
coaches definitely.
So I'm just making a plug forsupervision because it's yes, we
(07:16):
need many more plugs forsupervision.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
That's also one of those things where I'm like,
well, how can this not be on theradar of every single coach?
But you know different culturesand also that's why I've been
so, so happy to see the work andI think this is how we
connected right Through thecoaching ethics forum, because
the work that Wendy and Smith,for example, david Klauterbach,
(07:40):
a number of others have done alot in this space and Wendy's
been telling me it's beenexploding in popularity right,
they put on the conference andthey had like hundreds of people
running their door in wherebefore, you know, just a couple
of years back, would have beenlike 60, 70, 80, you know.
And now there's a whole globalcommunity that engages not just
(08:01):
each other but also a much widercommunity of coaches in ethical
reflection.
So a couple of new books on themarket, you know there's
communities out there, there'sreflective spaces, lots more
supervision, drop-in sessions.
So there's plenty ofopportunities to really hone in
on your ethical framework and Ihope that a lot more coaches
(08:25):
follow that call.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
What are you finding in supervision or just in your
day-to-day?
Even you as a coach Are somemaybe things that people aren't
thinking about that are ethicaldecisions, or things that maybe
can position a coach into abetter ethical position with
their coaching practice.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, so there's a lot.
So some things.
The first thing that came to mymind was, it's true, things
that we often don't think about.
For example, I've heard somecoaches talk about writing a
recommendation, or I've had aninteresting situation the other
(09:15):
day where a coach had asked mewhether I could.
They applied for an award andthey wanted me to confirm that
I'm their supervisor, and then Igot a whole forum that
basically asked me to write arecommendation for them, you
(09:35):
know, or a little statement ofwhy I think they deserve the
award, which it's not what I hadsigned up for.
And it was a bit tricky and Ithink many coaches may not think
about that twice and just like,of course, I'm going to
recommend them because I valuethem as a coach and I do value
them as a coach, but I thoughtit was a potentially a tricky
situation because now I'm inanother role and I'm kind of
(10:00):
leaving my role as a supervisorand I'm tuning in through a
different lens and if I do itfor this person, would I not
have to do it with all otherpeople?
You know?
A recommendation on LinkedIn, arequest for a recommendation on
LinkedIn, you know?
Or a testimonial of some sortasking for an introduction with
(10:20):
someone, and now plenty ofcoaches.
I don't think twice.
About course I'm going tointroduce it to everybody.
But like that can also betricky.
You know, there's so much moreat play here.
The dynamics might slightlychange.
You run a supervision group ora coaching group and one member
of the coaching group reachesout to you outside of the group
(10:41):
and starts a somewhat differentrelationship.
Now a coaching client wants toget you involved in some work
they're doing.
Is that a?
Of course, yeah, sure, and I'measy to navigate and handle.
I'm not really having anyconcerns.
But you know, have you thoughtabout the implications of
(11:01):
leaving, you know, the agreedcoaching space, at which point
you need to re-contract, atwhich point to super simple
clients asking for some adviceand you happen to have some good
advice, but the agreement wasfor a more facilitative coaching
style where you hold space.
So if you just were to justgive the advice, then you change
(11:24):
something in the dynamics.
Now Right, and if that advicedoesn't work out, then it's on
you, or at least you bear someresponsibility.
And if the advice does work out, they don't fully own the
results.
So is that something you thinkabout?
Many coaches will Some coacheswant.
So there's all of these kind ofsituations that they have many,
(11:48):
many layers and I found that ifyou start tuning into the
layers of the decisions that youmake, you always go deeper on
what your ethical principles are, what your ethical code is.
You know it doesn't mean thatsomething is unethical, that you
know you acted wrongly if thereare some concerns that you
hadn't thought about.
(12:08):
But I think it's helpful.
Some might say now, well, you dotoo much.
You know, do we need to thinkabout everything at that level
of depth?
And I guess some of it is afair concern because we want to.
We want to remain able to beagile in the moment and move and
(12:30):
follow our intuition.
So it can also be a bit in theway of a fluid conversation, but
that's why I guess we havespaces like supervision or
reflective spaces for anindividual coach.
Afterwards I had a colleague whosaid I asked him where that
intervention came from.
He talked to me about havingmade an intervention and it
(12:52):
seemed unorthodox and I saidwell, where did that come from?
Like what was operating in thebackground, like I often do in
the lab as well.
Right, and he said I often haveno clue where my interventions
come from.
You know that's what thesupervision is for.
I'd like try to make sense ofit afterwards, like where was
(13:13):
that grounded?
Where did that question comefrom?
Or, you know, was that right?
Did I not think about something?
So I mean, he was drawing on 20years of practice and it's a
bit easier to just follow yourintuition.
But I know a lot of people whofollow their intuition quite
blindly and never really taketime to question their intuition
(13:35):
because they trust it so muchand I think some of it can be
potentially harmful.
But I believe that whenever wereflect on why we do the things
we do and why we have done thethings we've done, we become
more grounded practitioners.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Absolutely yes, yes and yes.
All right, I feel like I'mthrowing, so much stuff at you.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I think maybe I need to get a couple of gears down
and take some breaths.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
No, it's good because it's important information and
this gives the listener time totake a pause and really reflect,
if you will, on the words thatyou're saying and aligning that.
Okay, is it aligned with what Ido?
And really asking themselvesthe question, as they're
listening and that's what thisis about.
(14:25):
So it's important and no,you're great.
Yeah, but I would love toswitch gears and go into this
coaching lab.
Tell us about this coaching labthat you have founded.
Come on, bring it on.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Well, yes, yes.
So where do I start?
Well, I think to just make thisas valuable as possible, right,
I think what was missing was toreally connect theory to
practice.
I love theory, but I have heardcoach after coach after coach
say, when I asked him, hey, whatwas the most valuable part of
(15:04):
whatever practice trainingyou've just experienced?
And the overwhelming majoritytends to say, well, it was
actually seeing somebody who'sexperienced in this do it Right.
There's this desire of well, Iwant to know how it's done and I
think most coaches in trainingthey get to see a lot of their
peers coach and they get tocoach a lot of their peers, but
(15:26):
they are everybody's juststarting out and then there's
maybe a short demo by anexperienced trainer, but it's a
very artificial kind of settingand everybody's a coach and you
know it's often quite kind ofsoftball coaching sessions and
everybody just looks at what'sthe positive and everybody's new
to this.
So it's difficult to becritical from a position of not
(15:48):
knowing anything about what'sgoing on there.
So what do you do?
I went to YouTube and otherplaces to just see what's out
there and it was.
You know, most of it is kind ofdisappointing.
Often you learn a lot from acoaching session that isn't done
well, you know, or where itjust doesn't really work.
(16:10):
And sometimes we have that inthe coaching lab too.
It's a lab for a reason, right,but I think it's that
reflective space afterwards andI kind of ties it back in with
supervision and reflectivepractice and ethics, you know.
So I wanted to have somebodycoach for a whole session.
45 minutes would argue thatlonger would probably be useful,
but also the event is alreadythree hours long.
(16:32):
So full session, let's call itthat 45 minutes and then have
another 45 minutes to reallytake it apart.
You know, to be critical, I likebeing critical.
Maybe it's my German roots, youknow, but like I, I I like to
believe, I'm gentle but alsoinquisitive.
You know, I think the mostelegant way to challenge someone
is curiosity, and I'm reallycurious about where the hell did
(16:55):
that question come from?
What theoretical model, if any,was operating in the background
?
What was going on during thatsilence?
It's like, how did youexperience that silence, client?
You know now, like I had, I gotthe feeling that you got a bit
annoyed at this moment with thecoach or with the question.
I don't know what it was Likedo you remember that moment?
(17:16):
What was going on for you?
You know, so would you shareyour notes?
What did you write down?
You know this is so you reallyget an inside look under the
hood of what experienced coachesdo, and I think that's so rare.
Right, we then go practice,play out a new technique, try
(17:36):
something out, even as a veryexperienced coach.
Like when do you get to trysomething out and experiment?
Like, maybe not with a paidclient, you know, especially if
you had a level where you getpaid, quite well, maybe you
don't want to try out thestrength model that you've just
learned about in a CPD, maybethat feels inappropriate to try
(17:57):
it with a new client, you're notquite confident with it, or you
know everybody has that with anew model, new approach, it
feels clunky at the beginning,then you internalize it, but it
takes some time to try some newthings out.
So I tell all the coaches thatcome to like CPD is even very
experienced one where I just geta practice client.
But I have a feeling that very,very few actually get a
practice client for free or fora very low cost, with the
(18:21):
understanding that I'm going totry something out, and I haven't
tried before.
I think people don't really dothat, and so having a space
where you can just try somethingout, see how it lands, and if
the whole thing explodes or doesnothing, then sometimes we
learn the most.
You know, that's where thescience, lab come, character
comes from.
Now, sometimes in theexperiment we make sense of why
(18:43):
nothing happened and that's howwe learn Right.
So never quite know what'sgoing to happen in the lab, but
we're going to see someone do athing.
I even moved away from do yourthing because it implies that
coaches have a thing Now and Ithink some coaches do.
They have a niche to have anapproach or methodology, but
most coaches are find,especially at experience levels.
(19:04):
They adapt to what the clientneeds in that moment, you know.
Then, yes, I get asked to demoexistential coaching, but then
sometimes I start talking to aclient and we have a
conversation and there's anexistential lens I'm bringing,
but it's not really existentialcoaching because it's not what
they need right now.
So we had a somatic coachingsession and the client said they
(19:27):
wanted to go into their bodyand work with it, but in
practice they just didn't dothat.
Every time the coach gentlyinvited them to pay attention to
what's going on in their body,they went straight to a
cognitive level and so theydidn't really push them into the
body because that feltunethical to the coach.
(19:47):
So after a couple of gentleinvitations, they just went with
the client and that was turnedout not to be a somatic coaching
session and just making senseof what just happened, what the
hell just happened.
It was really eye opening andyou learned so much about the
coach's ethical stance, how theymade decisions when to push,
(20:09):
when not to push.
You know what kind oftechniques they had considered
that weren't even spoken orinvited.
So you can tell right, I lovegetting to see people coach,
that I talk about coaching verymuch, but I don't actually have
a clue about what it actuallylooked like when somebody who
(20:29):
wrote this beautiful book isactually in a room doing the
thing.
And that's what I wanted to givepeople a platform, because it's
rare, it's really intimate.
You know, it's such a privilege, mainly for me.
I think I'm probably the mostexcited about this because
there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You need to be passionate about what you're
bringing into the world and thatthat radiates to others, and so
I think it's fantastic when didyou start this?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Oh, we started.
Well, the vision was to be in asmall London theater.
I was living in London for atthe time, and the vision was
that we're going to be in asmall theater.
There's lots of them and manyof them have capacity, and then
at some point, the stage lightswould go off and the audience
lights would come on and wewould have a conversation about
(21:18):
what just happened, and so wewanted to start that January
2020.
And then we moved the launchout to March 2020.
And, as people will remember atthis point or anyone in the
future, that was high pandemictime.
Everything closed down.
So we've been, we've beenonline ever since and I like it
to be honest, I'm kind of gladthat it happened like that.
(21:40):
I still want to do in personevents, but you know, on Zoom
you can just have the audiencedisappear and after a few
seconds or minutes, usually thecoaching client completely
forget that it's there, and soyou know you really get to an as
real as possible given theaudience setting coaching
(22:01):
session.
You know where it feels liketwo people on Zoom, they're
having a conversation and ifit's in the theater, it's always
going to feel a little staged.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Staged in the theater .
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I get that Indeed.
Yeah right, it kind of comeswith the territory.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It does.
Yeah, there's some risk that'sinvolved in stepping into that,
I imagine Just thinking aboutthat, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I thought it was going to be a lot more
uncomfortable.
For example, we weren'trecording the first couple of
sessions because I felt like nowwe have a huge vault like a
modern resource.
I was like no way, because Iwant people to feel as
comfortable as possible so thatwe get to see as real coaching
(22:49):
as possible.
So I'm like let's not record.
And then at some point westarted.
We found some ways in which wecan give coaching clients an
opportunity to just veto therecording going out, which
occasionally happens.
But I thought people would be alot more hesitant to step into
such a vulnerable space andreally open up and there would
(23:12):
be a lot more protected.
And so that's why I didn'tconsider recording, because I
didn't want them to be protected, I didn't want them to feel
protected obviously.
They're protected by thecontracting that we have in
place and the confidentialityagreement with the group.
It's still contained, but assoon as the audience disappears,
(23:33):
people really get into it andI'm amazed and really grateful
for the kind of openness thatpeople come into the lab with
and that they allow othercoaches to learn from the
encounter that they're havingwith a coach.
It's obviously also a fantasticopportunity to work with
somebody who might sometimeshave decades of experience for a
(23:57):
free session that otherwisemight have cost thousands of
dollars.
So I think there's also valuein there for the client.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And some relief of the energy of the group.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
They're like oh, this is exciting and maybe there's a
voyeuristic element to be seenin this world where everybody
seems to be seen but it stillcan feel very anonymous to so
many people.
So I think there's widersocietal aspects of this that
could be interesting to achieveand into.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
No, that's exciting work you're doing, for sure.
And how does that take place?
And we'll be sure to put thatin the show notes.
People can connect with you andyou'll give us that information
at the end and we can pop it inthe show notes.
But just to be clear, is it amembership that people?
Is that what you call that?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
We started with individual tickets.
We did establish a membershipmodel and so members have access
to the recordings, which Ithink is a huge part of the
value and also that allows us wehave very small operation right
.
It's me and a couple offreelancers that work with me
that helped me withadministration and logistics.
You can imagine it's a lotright, so this is not a
(25:11):
moneymaker.
Hopefully we get it to a stagewhere we can run several labs a
week.
Perhaps I could do them everyday.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
How often are they?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
At the moment I once a month, every first Tuesday,
and I'd love to get to a pointwhere we can run specialized
labs.
At the moment you get to seesuch a broad range of what
coaching can be and it reallyexpands the idea of what
coaching is right, becausecoaches work so differently.
I mean, some just really leaninto the mentoring or consulting
(25:42):
element or psychoeducation, andso we have some coaches who
really just move into a teachingmode and just own that, because
really there's no rules aboutwhat you can and cannot do in
coaching.
So ethics come back here.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right, yeah, and the whole contracting, as you said
earlier, or recontracting, andthat can happen on the spot.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Oh yeah, some contract a lot in the beginning
and others just dive straight in.
So it's always fascinating tome to what extent people do or
do not contract at all, and ifyou have somebody very
experienced some of them, Iasked them questions and they
hadn't considered it.
But usually they know whatthey're doing, they're doing it
(26:25):
intentionally, so it's reallyinteresting.
So sometimes we had a sessionsthat I'm like well, this is,
that was a therapy session,wasn't it?
So what made this coaching?
And to see the differentperspectives on the line between
coaching and therapy, orcoaching and mentoring, or
(26:47):
consulting, or teaching, or justbeing a friend or just guiding
someone through a meditation.
So we've seen all of the styles, which is great, so I always
want to keep that going.
But I'd love to have anexistential coaching lab.
Just 12 existential coachesover a year really hone in on
the craft.
Live psychology coaching,leadership coaching, performance
(27:09):
coaching, nutrition coachinglike that has a million
different kinds of coaching andso you can really get the
community together off thatparticular community of practice
right as a word I gotintroduced to a little while ago
and I love that as a frameworkfor it A community of coaches
that comes together who arecommitted to working at the top
(27:33):
of the game, who are committedto growing and expanding their
practice, the idea of how it'spracticed, and I think if we
bring niche coaches together, itsays a special energy.
At the moment we bring coachestogether that just love to
expand their idea of coaching.
You always pick up a newtechnique or something from any
coach that you watch live.
(27:54):
But yes, that's where I see itgoing and for that membership
system just really works becausethen we're not so busy
marketing every event.
You know people commit to beinga part of that community of
practice.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That is fantastic.
Well, we're going to shiftagain, because you've used the
word and I know that youreducation is around
existentialism, and so I'd lovefor you maybe to just unpack
what that is, because I knowthat some of the listeners they
may say, yes, maybe they'veheard it, maybe they haven't.
So what is existentialism andwhat is that?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
when we look at that through the coaching ones, I
always have to smile a littlebit when I think existentialism
in a nutshell, because it's,it's yeah, it's complex, I think
I'd like to believe over theyears I kind of got okay at
narrowing it down to theessential of what it is.
So, essentially, existentialismas an, as a branch of
(28:56):
philosophy, it's a philosophy ofhuman lived existence, of the
experience of existing, theexperience of being human, right
being human as well.
What do we know about beinghuman when we strip all of the
all of the kind of labels away?
Right, when you just thinkabout being there.
That's what we are.
(29:17):
Hi, daga Sartre, albert Camus,this Kazun, kierkegaard, fritich
Nietzsche, you know there's alot of these philosophers that
started thinking about what doesit mean to just be there, you
know, not be a coach, not beGerman or American, not be right
wing, left wing, republican,democrat if you strip all of
(29:39):
that away man, woman, likeparents, what's left when we are
just there?
That's the human condition.
The human condition ischaracterized by anxiety, not
the kind of anxiety that you getmaybe ahead of a presentation
or public speaking gig, but theexistential anxiety, the anxiety
(30:01):
that you get as a result ofjust being human in the world,
with other humans.
It's characterized by certaintensions, by certain conflicts
that nobody can escape unlessthey stop existing or they
continuously keep themselvesbusy and distract themselves
from the human experience.
(30:22):
We have that people after 20years of work they're like who
am I now?
Where did all of this time go?
Just keep busy.
When we become still, sometimeswe notice it bubbling up and
then often we distract ourselveswith something.
So, for example, we like to notthink about endings, endings,
(30:48):
temporality, death as perhapsthe ultimate ending, at least as
far as we can know.
Things with what you believe isabout what comes after death or
not.
I know I'm talking to someonewith a particular perspective on
this, but it doesn't matter somuch what you believe comes
after.
What we know is that it's asignificant ending, perhaps the
(31:09):
most significant endings ofendings of all.
Maybe it's just black, or maybethere's some sort of paradise,
maybe there's some sort ofafterlife, but it is a
significant change in humanexperience and endings are
everywhere.
It's not just death, buteverything is temporal.
We always move into differentphases.
Every change process requiresan ending and a new beginning.
(31:33):
So endings are part of thefabric of human existence and we
need them because deadlineshelp us to get you done.
So many people rely on them.
But also they cause someanxiety.
We don't really want to focuson things ending, especially
when they're nice, but it offersmeaning and purpose to our life
(31:57):
.
It does something.
So we have this paradoxicalrelationship with endings.
Same thing with relating toother people.
Barbara wrote that hell isother people.
We naturally compare ourselvesto others, but we're social
animals.
We need the group.
We couldn't survive without thegroup.
So we love the group, we hatethe group.
We need the group and it'scausing us so much pain and
(32:19):
suffering.
So it's both and it'sparadoxical.
It's tension, but we feed offthat tension.
Absurdity, meaninglessness it'sa third existential given.
If there is a meaning of lifewe couldn't know, we can have
faith, but we can't know it.
(32:41):
We can create meaning in ourlife.
We can choose things to bemeaningful, we can create
meaning and suffering, but anoverarching meaning to our
existence.
The best we can do is believein it.
So existentialists have arguedthat well, there's absurdity in
(33:01):
life.
That is just one of the givens.
Because meaninglessness wecannot make sense of certain
things, at least not withcertainty.
So that's part of the humanexistence.
We have meaning-making machines, always make meaning, we always
make sense of things, quitenaturally, but we cannot ever be
sure whether that's correctmeaning.
So many different meaningstructures.
(33:25):
What I believe is right,somebody else thinks is
despicable.
What saved the children fromcancer?
Are you crazy?
Have you thought aboutoverpopulation?
Okay, some people say we needwar and destruction because that
is a natural way of balancingout the production.
So it's important that we'refighting.
(33:46):
I'm not sure I'll think aboutthat, but I could see the
argument.
And then freedom.
Freedom is often hailed as thisuber-positive thing that
everybody should be striving for.
But you give someone way toomuch freedom and they're going
to experience what Zeran Kukugo,one of the first people, wrote
(34:07):
about existentialism, danishphilosopher talks about as the
dizziness of freedom.
Very simple experiment that wasdone.
Once You're in the supermarket,you offer people a free
mommelade, free jam.
You offer them three, peopleleave happy.
You offer them 23, and theyleave many leaves.
The majority leaves with oh,there could have been a better
(34:29):
choice.
Oh, I have chosen correctly.
I have made the most out ofthis opportunity.
Oh, they can't.
I mean, I've been to asupermarket once wanting to buy
cereal and left without buying acereal because I didn't want to
go through the choice.
I think most of us have beenthere despairing over what to
(34:51):
pick from the lunch menu,because you can never ever go
back.
You can never go back and make adifferent choice at that moment
in time.
So every choice excludes allthe other opportunities, all the
other choices.
You can only choose one out ofthe gazillion choices that you
have and think about choosing aromantic partner or a job or a
(35:11):
career where to study.
So huge choices, small choices.
There's always existentialanxiety if you pay attention to
it, because you've got to own it.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
You've got to own your choice.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yes, and you need to come to terms with never finding
out whether a different choicewould have been better or worse
or just different.
You will never, ever know,because you can never go back
and make the other choice.
Absurdity, freedom, death,isolation that's kind of been
(35:47):
framed as the existential givens, what characterizes the human
condition.
Existential coaches learn tolisten to their client's
relationship with these givens.
I think in that when we listento that, when we pick it up and
it can be very subtle, what canbe very much in your face.
(36:07):
I've learned in my coachingpractice that whatever a client
brings into the coaching roomthe presenting issue, if you
will it's always connected toone or more of these existential
themes, of these biggerquestions in life.
Why am I here?
For?
What am I doing with my time?
Is there a God?
(36:28):
What does he, she it, want meto do?
What's my purpose?
How can I live a meaningfulexistence, how can I be happy?
There's big questions in lifethat don't have one answer.
They have many answers,possibly, but people need to
find their answer.
There's no certainty whetherthat's the right answer.
(36:48):
These bigger questions, they'realways there underneath the
surface.
Sometimes they're very much inyour face.
As an existential coach.
I like to make thoseconnections because it opens up
different conversations than ifI were to just jump on what the
presenting issue is and let'screate a goal and action plan
(37:08):
out of that.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Very interesting, so that it seems to me that that
would be a very rich coachingconversation as you process
through those things, for sure.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, it can be.
Now I'm quite branded as anexistential coach.
I talk about it quite a lot.
I think that heightens thetendency that somebody comes to
me with a big question to startoff with and we have sometimes a
philosophical discussion aboutwhat does it mean to be
authentic?
(37:46):
as a leader or as a parent or asa friend, have a conversation
about dilemma and paradox andtension, conflict.
But I've done quite a lot ofwork with an agency, for example
, in New York, working with alot of tech startups at the East
Coast, at the West Coast, andthere's a lot of people coming
(38:08):
in.
They're not interested in aphilosophical debate, they're
not interested in anyphilosophical concepts and we
never mention anythingexistential.
But these are human issues.
They're always in the room.
Questions around belonging, forexample.
It's almost always in the roomin some way or another and
(38:28):
sometimes it's the client'sdominant conflict and it
influences all of these thingsthat they bring into the
coaching room, even if they havenever mentioned the term
belonging.
I'm quite big picture, so I pickup on some of these broader
themes and with an existentiallens and a big picture lens, I
can invite a conversation abouta bigger theme.
(38:48):
But that's not necessarilynecessary.
We can also.
I can also just notice them andif it keeps coming back, I'll
put it on the table and probablyinvite a conversation about it.
But I'm not making everyconversation existential because
it's not needed.
Like I mentioned earlier,sometimes you do an existential
(39:09):
coaching demo and you set out tohave an existential
conversation and it just doesn'tgo that way.
And because how much time doyou have and what do you want to
achieve?
If it's something that is quitetangible and the client wants
to have that conversation, well,there's probably other clients
that I might be a bit moreexcited about.
And if we're together and, asthe existentialists invite us,
(39:32):
just commit to the thing thatyou're doing now.
If something's boring, as longas soon as you commit to it, it
just stops being boring.
So not every existential coachhas philosophical conversations.
It just means that it's a lensthat offers more possibility to
have different kinds ofconversations.
(39:54):
And not every systemic coachwill talk openly about the
influences of the system, but wealso will always notice them,
right, right, and that just addsmore.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Right For Christian coaches.
Now, if I'm with a client whois Christian and they're open to
exploring that avenue, that'sfine.
But I'll still use the sameprinciples of Christianity with
a corporate client.
It's the same thing, I'm justI'm not verbalizing with a
Christian lens, so I get that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, and one thing that's probably worth mentioning
to maybe predominantlyChristian audience is that
existentialism sometimes gets areputation of being full of
atheists, and there's probably atrend towards when you hear
nothingness and absurdity at thecenter of the human experience,
(40:47):
I'm sure it would wrap a lot ofChristians the wrong way.
Yeah, but really and actuallythere's been quite a lot of
existentialists who come fromtheism who had a very strong
personal relationship with God.
You know, I think allexistentialists, they're
critical towards dogma, right.
(41:09):
So they would encourage peopleto question where your beliefs
are coming from, right, andevaluating stories that you have
just been handed down and buildyour own relationship with them
.
But that doesn't necessarilymean you're going to stop
believing in God.
It just means that, oh, maybeyou're going to break with
organized religion.
So that's what SirinKierkegaard, for example, that
(41:31):
happened.
He broke with the church, buthe was a devout Christian.
So as a whole book, christianexistentialism, it's a very good
book for anybody who'slistening to this that has that
kind of lens, and I like thephilosophy, because everybody
who's human seems to really getit, because it's about the human
(41:54):
experience.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
But it doesn't tell you this is a right or wrong way
to live.
It just means it just invitesus and encourages us to question
, to doubt, to be critical, tocreate your own thing, even if
you are critical and you'redoubting and you're questioning,
and then you arrive exactlywhere you left off, at least.
(42:18):
Now it's sunken in and you'vechallenged it and you decided
that this is something I can own.
And the experience of havinggone through a process like that
doesn't necessarily mean you'remaking a lot of changes in your
life, but it means now theexperience is one where you
really own your life and yourdecisions and you take
(42:40):
responsibility for the choicesthat you make, rather than life
happening to you.
You're now there in this,you're the captain and some
things there.
We call it facticity.
You can't choose which languageyou're going to grow up with.
You can't choose some of yourphysical features.
I mean you can choose a lot ofphysical features nowadays.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Nowadays yes.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Modern surgery.
But there are certain thingsyou just can't change, and
coming to terms with that isreally helpful.
So what can I change, what canI not change?
And then owning responsibilityfor our choices what have I
chosen?
What have I chosen?
Not to choose?
Where have I chosen to not takeany action?
(43:24):
Where have I chosen to sit backand see how things play out?
That's a choice.
So, ah, so you chose not tochoose, you know.
And just that frame is reallyhelpful.
And to me it helped to take allof these coaching tools,
interventions, questions, linesof inquiry, models and integrate
(43:47):
them into an existentialgrounding, because
existentialism offers a way ofunderstanding my relationship
with myself and with the worldand with others.
And within that it's quitefertile ground to draw in my
positive psychology background,for example, or draw in
(44:08):
something from psychodynamic, ordraw in something from TA or,
you know, a systemic wementioned.
There are so many coachingapproaches out there.
It's compatible with quite alot of them and in conflict with
some others, but I just I lovethat as a foundation because I
feel at home there and it allowsme.
(44:29):
It's solid enough to work as afoundation and it's flexible
enough to allow me to evolve.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Wow, well, thank you for that.
Thank you for just unpackingthat at the level you did.
So it's understandable forpeople to not just hear the word
, but to have a betterunderstanding about what it is
and how they can connect withthat.
So thank you for that.
Well, yannick, I would love tobe able to point people to you.
(45:00):
How can people connect with you?
Maybe they've heard somethingtoday, maybe they've heard about
that coaching lab and they wantto check that out or just learn
more about you and the servicesthat you provide.
How can we point them in yourdirection?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Sure, so coaches can ideally go to
rocketsupervisioncom.
I could go into rocket metaphor.
I love that as well.
Rocket supervisioncom, as youwould spell it, is my hub for
coaches, with all the resources.
There's also a link to thecoaching lab, or you can go to
gocoachinglabcom directly, andmy other work I do with
(45:39):
non-coaches, so to speak, is atexistentialcoach, so
wwwexistentialcoach, and find meon YouTube, linkedin.
I'm out there if you Google me.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay, and then where can people find your book?
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Oh, an introduction to existential coaching.
I think it's an all majorbookstore.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Srouled.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Litch is a pretty spot on publisher, so you have
no problem finding that.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Okay, good, very good , we'll make sure that those go
in the show notes.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us on Conversations
Today.
It's been a rich conversation.
I learned some things and Iappreciate that, and I love that
we kind of went around theblock with quite a bit of
information during the session.
So thank you for that Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Kelly, thank you so much for the platform, really
appreciated being here and Ifeel there's so many questions
that I could ask you.
So I think we might need tohave another one of these,
because I feel there's a lotmore that you could offer in
response or in dialogue.
You know, and coaches lovedialogue, so sometimes I fall
into this interview mode whenyou give me the right question
(46:52):
and I mean you just witnessed it.
I just kind of go for a while,especially when it's a complex
concept.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it is a complex concept, but you were able to
break it down and I appreciatethat.
It's important, especially forthis platform.
For people not to you know,things can be pretty lofty, and
so it's important the work thatI do.
I'm a very simple person.
I don't use big words.
I like things broken down so Ican understand them and then I
(47:18):
can explain them better to otherpeople.
So I appreciate you and untilnext time, you keep doing great
things and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
You're welcome.
Well, hey there and welcome to Conversations where
today we have Yannick Jacob, whois a coach, trainer and
supervisor with a master'sdegree in existential coaching
and applied positive psychology.
He is part of the teachingfaculties at Cambridge
University, the InternationalCenter for Coaching Supervision,
(00:20):
and he's the course director ofthe School of Positive
Transformations, accreditedCertificate in Integrative
Coaching.
Yannick presents at conferencesinternationally and his book,
an Introduction to ExistentialCoaching, was published by
Rutledge, committed to helpingother coaches be the best
(00:42):
coaches they can be.
Yannick founded and hostsYannick's Coaching Lab, which
we're going to talk about, whichgives novice and seasoned
coaches an opportunity towitness experienced coaches live
in action.
He's a podcast host, whichwe're going to add those
definitely to the show notes sopeople can connect that way with
(01:02):
you.
And for all you strengths,enthusiasts, yannick leads with
adaptability, strategic relator,communication, responsibility
and woo.
Yannick, welcome to the showand where in the world are you
today?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Oh, kelly, thank you so much.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm in Berlin at the moment.
I'm based here now.
I'm always elsewhere.
Home is where you are, I guess.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That sure is.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I love Berlin, great vibe, great city.
If anybody hasn't been, Ireally invite to soak it in.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I would love to visit , I really would.
My mother's been there and Iwould love to visit someday, so
I will look you up and we canconnect.
Well, I reached out to you.
I saw you on LinkedIn and itwas something around ethics and
(02:08):
that really piqued my interest,especially as a coach, and I
know that there can be timeswhere it's a sticky place when
we think about ethics.
So I'd love for you maybe justto share a little bit about what
ethics means to you in coachingand why that's important for
coaches.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, there's a quote I really like about ethics
which is by Michael Carroll, whowrote a lot about ethics, and
it goes much is revealed about aperson's I would say a coach's
character by what appears ordoesn't appear as an ethical
decision.
And to me that has been so true.
(02:53):
What's an ethical decision?
Well, essentially we're talkingabout what's right, what's
wrong if we have it in thatpolarity.
But everybody who's beenthinking for five minutes about
what's right and what's wrongprobably realized it's a bit
more complex than that.
Very often as a huge amount ofgray, or it just depends on the
context.
(03:13):
It can be very challenging tonavigate.
And then also, by whatstandards do you decide right
and wrong?
The law, is it morals, culture?
Then culture isn't necessarilythe area where you live in or
the country you live in the partof the world.
But the house down the road hasa different culture.
(03:35):
The team next door has adifferent culture.
The classroom on the other sideof the hallway has a different
culture.
This friend group has adifferent culture to that friend
group.
This coaching relationship hasa different culture to that
coaching relationship.
So it's really very tricky tonavigate what's right and what's
wrong, what's the right thingto do here and I think one of
(03:58):
the things I want to saystraight from the bat that I
think is really helpful and alsomakes things more complex so
sorry, and you're welcome isthat ethics isn't a set of rules
to follow like the ICF's Codeof Ethics or AC MCC.
Every professional buddysubscribes to a code of conduct
that gives you some guidance onwhat's right and what's wrong,
(04:21):
what you should or shouldn't doin coaching.
But I think it's only helpfulas far it can offer some
guidance.
That gives you a bit of an idea, it draws a bit of a landscape,
but once we're in the messinessof everyday coaching scenarios
it can get tricky.
So I think thinking of ethicsas a set of questions you need
(04:45):
to ask yourself rather than aset of rules to follow, is super
helpful because that makescoaching a continuous inquiry
and that's why I've been flyingthe flag for supervision and I'm
enjoying the coaching lab somuch, because you get to dive
into these situations andreflect and explore why certain
(05:08):
decisions were made, and I loveasking questions.
That invites a coach toconsider why they have made
certain decisions.
When, back to the Carol quote,maybe they hadn't even thought
about that was a decision.
Maybe they hadn't recognizedthat they were making choices
here.
They're just kind of into itfrom one moment to the next, as
(05:30):
we often do as coaches.
So slowing down, maybe rollingthe tape back a little bit and
thinking about what have I donethere, what am I left with, what
choices do I make?
Where did these choices comefrom?
The more we do that, the morewe create a foundation of ethics
(05:51):
as a coach, maybe even work ona set of ethical principles that
we follow and that makes us somuch stronger and so much more
confident as coaches and thequality of the space that we
hold when we are grounded inthat kind of framework and that
kind of principled set, it'sjust very powerful and there's
(06:13):
an ease and the groundedness andthe quality of space that is
just lovely to be in thepresence of.
So I think it serves ourclients and all this.
They call this in coachingAbsolutely.
Go get me going right.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I think it's terrific and those are definitely words
of wisdom, and before I move onto what was sparked, I do want
to say that, if coaches have notbeen ever in supervision, it is
such an amazing place to be andto find out more about yourself
and to have people who arealigned with you, whether it's
(06:52):
one to one supervision or in agroup supervision really
important for coaches to be ableto step into that, and that's
something that I had never eventhought about until I started
with teams but individualcoaches, co-coaches, team
coaches definitely.
So I'm just making a plug forsupervision because it's yes, we
(07:16):
need many more plugs forsupervision.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
That's also one of those things where I'm like,
well, how can this not be on theradar of every single coach?
But you know different culturesand also that's why I've been
so, so happy to see the work andI think this is how we
connected right Through thecoaching ethics forum, because
the work that Wendy and Smith,for example, david Klauterbach,
(07:40):
a number of others have done alot in this space and Wendy's
been telling me it's beenexploding in popularity right,
they put on the conference andthey had like hundreds of people
running their door in wherebefore, you know, just a couple
of years back, would have beenlike 60, 70, 80, you know.
And now there's a whole globalcommunity that engages not just
(08:01):
each other but also a much widercommunity of coaches in ethical
reflection.
So a couple of new books on themarket, you know there's
communities out there, there'sreflective spaces, lots more
supervision, drop-in sessions.
So there's plenty ofopportunities to really hone in
on your ethical framework and Ihope that a lot more coaches
(08:25):
follow that call.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
What are you finding in supervision or just in your
day-to-day?
Even you as a coach Are somemaybe things that people aren't
thinking about that are ethicaldecisions, or things that maybe
can position a coach into abetter ethical position with
their coaching practice.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, so there's a lot.
So some things.
The first thing that came to mymind was, it's true, things
that we often don't think about.
For example, I've heard somecoaches talk about writing a
recommendation, or I've had aninteresting situation the other
(09:15):
day where a coach had asked mewhether I could.
They applied for an award andthey wanted me to confirm that
I'm their supervisor, and then Igot a whole forum that
basically asked me to write arecommendation for them, you
(09:35):
know, or a little statement ofwhy I think they deserve the
award, which it's not what I hadsigned up for.
And it was a bit tricky and Ithink many coaches may not think
about that twice and just like,of course, I'm going to
recommend them because I valuethem as a coach and I do value
them as a coach, but I thoughtit was a potentially a tricky
situation because now I'm inanother role and I'm kind of
(10:00):
leaving my role as a supervisorand I'm tuning in through a
different lens and if I do itfor this person, would I not
have to do it with all otherpeople?
You know?
A recommendation on LinkedIn, arequest for a recommendation on
LinkedIn, you know?
Or a testimonial of some sortasking for an introduction with
(10:20):
someone, and now plenty ofcoaches.
I don't think twice.
About course I'm going tointroduce it to everybody.
But like that can also betricky.
You know, there's so much moreat play here.
The dynamics might slightlychange.
You run a supervision group ora coaching group and one member
of the coaching group reachesout to you outside of the group
(10:41):
and starts a somewhat differentrelationship.
Now a coaching client wants toget you involved in some work
they're doing.
Is that a?
Of course, yeah, sure, and I'measy to navigate and handle.
I'm not really having anyconcerns.
But you know, have you thoughtabout the implications of
(11:01):
leaving, you know, the agreedcoaching space, at which point
you need to re-contract, atwhich point to super simple
clients asking for some adviceand you happen to have some good
advice, but the agreement wasfor a more facilitative coaching
style where you hold space.
So if you just were to justgive the advice, then you change
(11:24):
something in the dynamics.
Now Right, and if that advicedoesn't work out, then it's on
you, or at least you bear someresponsibility.
And if the advice does work out, they don't fully own the
results.
So is that something you thinkabout?
Many coaches will Some coacheswant.
So there's all of these kind ofsituations that they have many,
(11:48):
many layers and I found that ifyou start tuning into the
layers of the decisions that youmake, you always go deeper on
what your ethical principles are, what your ethical code is.
You know it doesn't mean thatsomething is unethical, that you
know you acted wrongly if thereare some concerns that you
hadn't thought about.
(12:08):
But I think it's helpful.
Some might say now, well, you dotoo much.
You know, do we need to thinkabout everything at that level
of depth?
And I guess some of it is afair concern because we want to.
We want to remain able to beagile in the moment and move and
(12:30):
follow our intuition.
So it can also be a bit in theway of a fluid conversation, but
that's why I guess we havespaces like supervision or
reflective spaces for anindividual coach.
Afterwards I had a colleague whosaid I asked him where that
intervention came from.
He talked to me about havingmade an intervention and it
(12:52):
seemed unorthodox and I saidwell, where did that come from?
Like what was operating in thebackground, like I often do in
the lab as well.
Right, and he said I often haveno clue where my interventions
come from.
You know that's what thesupervision is for.
I'd like try to make sense ofit afterwards, like where was
(13:13):
that grounded?
Where did that question comefrom?
Or, you know, was that right?
Did I not think about something?
So I mean, he was drawing on 20years of practice and it's a
bit easier to just follow yourintuition.
But I know a lot of people whofollow their intuition quite
blindly and never really taketime to question their intuition
(13:35):
because they trust it so muchand I think some of it can be
potentially harmful.
But I believe that whenever wereflect on why we do the things
we do and why we have done thethings we've done, we become
more grounded practitioners.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Absolutely yes, yes and yes.
All right, I feel like I'mthrowing, so much stuff at you.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I think maybe I need to get a couple of gears down
and take some breaths.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
No, it's good because it's important information and
this gives the listener time totake a pause and really reflect,
if you will, on the words thatyou're saying and aligning that.
Okay, is it aligned with what Ido?
And really asking themselvesthe question, as they're
listening and that's what thisis about.
(14:25):
So it's important and no,you're great.
Yeah, but I would love toswitch gears and go into this
coaching lab.
Tell us about this coaching labthat you have founded.
Come on, bring it on.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Well, yes, yes.
So where do I start?
Well, I think to just make thisas valuable as possible, right,
I think what was missing was toreally connect theory to
practice.
I love theory, but I have heardcoach after coach after coach
say, when I asked him, hey, whatwas the most valuable part of
(15:04):
whatever practice trainingyou've just experienced?
And the overwhelming majoritytends to say, well, it was
actually seeing somebody who'sexperienced in this do it Right.
There's this desire of well, Iwant to know how it's done and I
think most coaches in trainingthey get to see a lot of their
peers coach and they get tocoach a lot of their peers, but
(15:26):
they are everybody's juststarting out and then there's
maybe a short demo by anexperienced trainer, but it's a
very artificial kind of settingand everybody's a coach and you
know it's often quite kind ofsoftball coaching sessions and
everybody just looks at what'sthe positive and everybody's new
to this.
So it's difficult to becritical from a position of not
(15:48):
knowing anything about what'sgoing on there.
So what do you do?
I went to YouTube and otherplaces to just see what's out
there and it was.
You know, most of it is kind ofdisappointing.
Often you learn a lot from acoaching session that isn't done
well, you know, or where itjust doesn't really work.
(16:10):
And sometimes we have that inthe coaching lab too.
It's a lab for a reason, right,but I think it's that
reflective space afterwards andI kind of ties it back in with
supervision and reflectivepractice and ethics, you know.
So I wanted to have somebodycoach for a whole session.
45 minutes would argue thatlonger would probably be useful,
but also the event is alreadythree hours long.
(16:32):
So full session, let's call itthat 45 minutes and then have
another 45 minutes to reallytake it apart.
You know, to be critical, I likebeing critical.
Maybe it's my German roots, youknow, but like I, I I like to
believe, I'm gentle but alsoinquisitive.
You know, I think the mostelegant way to challenge someone
is curiosity, and I'm reallycurious about where the hell did
(16:55):
that question come from?
What theoretical model, if any,was operating in the background
?
What was going on during thatsilence?
It's like, how did youexperience that silence, client?
You know now, like I had, I gotthe feeling that you got a bit
annoyed at this moment with thecoach or with the question.
I don't know what it was Likedo you remember that moment?
(17:16):
What was going on for you?
You know, so would you shareyour notes?
What did you write down?
You know this is so you reallyget an inside look under the
hood of what experienced coachesdo, and I think that's so rare.
Right, we then go practice,play out a new technique, try
(17:36):
something out, even as a veryexperienced coach.
Like when do you get to trysomething out and experiment?
Like, maybe not with a paidclient, you know, especially if
you had a level where you getpaid, quite well, maybe you
don't want to try out thestrength model that you've just
learned about in a CPD, maybethat feels inappropriate to try
(17:57):
it with a new client, you're notquite confident with it, or you
know everybody has that with anew model, new approach, it
feels clunky at the beginning,then you internalize it, but it
takes some time to try some newthings out.
So I tell all the coaches thatcome to like CPD is even very
experienced one where I just geta practice client.
But I have a feeling that very,very few actually get a
practice client for free or fora very low cost, with the
(18:21):
understanding that I'm going totry something out, and I haven't
tried before.
I think people don't really dothat, and so having a space
where you can just try somethingout, see how it lands, and if
the whole thing explodes or doesnothing, then sometimes we
learn the most.
You know, that's where thescience, lab come, character
comes from.
Now, sometimes in theexperiment we make sense of why
(18:43):
nothing happened and that's howwe learn Right.
So never quite know what'sgoing to happen in the lab, but
we're going to see someone do athing.
I even moved away from do yourthing because it implies that
coaches have a thing Now and Ithink some coaches do.
They have a niche to have anapproach or methodology, but
most coaches are find,especially at experience levels.
(19:04):
They adapt to what the clientneeds in that moment, you know.
Then, yes, I get asked to demoexistential coaching, but then
sometimes I start talking to aclient and we have a
conversation and there's anexistential lens I'm bringing,
but it's not really existentialcoaching because it's not what
they need right now.
So we had a somatic coachingsession and the client said they
(19:27):
wanted to go into their bodyand work with it, but in
practice they just didn't dothat.
Every time the coach gentlyinvited them to pay attention to
what's going on in their body,they went straight to a
cognitive level and so theydidn't really push them into the
body because that feltunethical to the coach.
(19:47):
So after a couple of gentleinvitations, they just went with
the client and that was turnedout not to be a somatic coaching
session and just making senseof what just happened, what the
hell just happened.
It was really eye opening andyou learned so much about the
coach's ethical stance, how theymade decisions when to push,
(20:09):
when not to push.
You know what kind oftechniques they had considered
that weren't even spoken orinvited.
So you can tell right, I lovegetting to see people coach,
that I talk about coaching verymuch, but I don't actually have
a clue about what it actuallylooked like when somebody who
(20:29):
wrote this beautiful book isactually in a room doing the
thing.
And that's what I wanted to givepeople a platform, because it's
rare, it's really intimate.
You know, it's such a privilege, mainly for me.
I think I'm probably the mostexcited about this because
there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You need to be passionate about what you're
bringing into the world and thatthat radiates to others, and so
I think it's fantastic when didyou start this?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Oh, we started.
Well, the vision was to be in asmall London theater.
I was living in London for atthe time, and the vision was
that we're going to be in asmall theater.
There's lots of them and manyof them have capacity, and then
at some point, the stage lightswould go off and the audience
lights would come on and wewould have a conversation about
(21:18):
what just happened, and so wewanted to start that January
2020.
And then we moved the launchout to March 2020.
And, as people will remember atthis point or anyone in the
future, that was high pandemictime.
Everything closed down.
So we've been, we've beenonline ever since and I like it
to be honest, I'm kind of gladthat it happened like that.
(21:40):
I still want to do in personevents, but you know, on Zoom
you can just have the audiencedisappear and after a few
seconds or minutes, usually thecoaching client completely
forget that it's there, and soyou know you really get to an as
real as possible given theaudience setting coaching
(22:01):
session.
You know where it feels liketwo people on Zoom, they're
having a conversation and ifit's in the theater, it's always
going to feel a little staged.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Staged in the theater .
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I get that Indeed.
Yeah right, it kind of comeswith the territory.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
It does.
Yeah, there's some risk that'sinvolved in stepping into that,
I imagine Just thinking aboutthat, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I thought it was going to be a lot more
uncomfortable.
For example, we weren'trecording the first couple of
sessions because I felt like nowwe have a huge vault like a
modern resource.
I was like no way, because Iwant people to feel as
comfortable as possible so thatwe get to see as real coaching
(22:49):
as possible.
So I'm like let's not record.
And then at some point westarted.
We found some ways in which wecan give coaching clients an
opportunity to just veto therecording going out, which
occasionally happens.
But I thought people would be alot more hesitant to step into
such a vulnerable space andreally open up and there would
(23:12):
be a lot more protected.
And so that's why I didn'tconsider recording, because I
didn't want them to be protected, I didn't want them to feel
protected obviously.
They're protected by thecontracting that we have in
place and the confidentialityagreement with the group.
It's still contained, but assoon as the audience disappears,
(23:33):
people really get into it andI'm amazed and really grateful
for the kind of openness thatpeople come into the lab with
and that they allow othercoaches to learn from the
encounter that they're havingwith a coach.
It's obviously also a fantasticopportunity to work with
somebody who might sometimeshave decades of experience for a
(23:57):
free session that otherwisemight have cost thousands of
dollars.
So I think there's also valuein there for the client.
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And some relief of the energy of the group.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
They're like oh, this is exciting and maybe there's a
voyeuristic element to be seenin this world where everybody
seems to be seen but it stillcan feel very anonymous to so
many people.
So I think there's widersocietal aspects of this that
could be interesting to achieveand into.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
No, that's exciting work you're doing, for sure.
And how does that take place?
And we'll be sure to put thatin the show notes.
People can connect with you andyou'll give us that information
at the end and we can pop it inthe show notes.
But just to be clear, is it amembership that people?
Is that what you call that?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
We started with individual tickets.
We did establish a membershipmodel and so members have access
to the recordings, which Ithink is a huge part of the
value and also that allows us wehave very small operation right
.
It's me and a couple offreelancers that work with me
that helped me withadministration and logistics.
You can imagine it's a lotright, so this is not a
(25:11):
moneymaker.
Hopefully we get it to a stagewhere we can run several labs a
week.
Perhaps I could do them everyday.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
How often are they?
Speaker 2 (25:22):
At the moment I once a month, every first Tuesday,
and I'd love to get to a pointwhere we can run specialized
labs.
At the moment you get to seesuch a broad range of what
coaching can be and it reallyexpands the idea of what
coaching is right, becausecoaches work so differently.
I mean, some just really leaninto the mentoring or consulting
(25:42):
element or psychoeducation, andso we have some coaches who
really just move into a teachingmode and just own that, because
really there's no rules aboutwhat you can and cannot do in
coaching.
So ethics come back here.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right, yeah, and the whole contracting, as you said
earlier, or recontracting, andthat can happen on the spot.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Oh yeah, some contract a lot in the beginning
and others just dive straight in.
So it's always fascinating tome to what extent people do or
do not contract at all, and ifyou have somebody very
experienced some of them, Iasked them questions and they
hadn't considered it.
But usually they know whatthey're doing, they're doing it
(26:25):
intentionally, so it's reallyinteresting.
So sometimes we had a sessionsthat I'm like well, this is,
that was a therapy session,wasn't it?
So what made this coaching?
And to see the differentperspectives on the line between
coaching and therapy, orcoaching and mentoring, or
(26:47):
consulting, or teaching, or justbeing a friend or just guiding
someone through a meditation.
So we've seen all of the styles, which is great, so I always
want to keep that going.
But I'd love to have anexistential coaching lab.
Just 12 existential coachesover a year really hone in on
the craft.
Live psychology coaching,leadership coaching, performance
(27:09):
coaching, nutrition coachinglike that has a million
different kinds of coaching andso you can really get the
community together off thatparticular community of practice
right as a word I gotintroduced to a little while ago
and I love that as a frameworkfor it A community of coaches
that comes together who arecommitted to working at the top
(27:33):
of the game, who are committedto growing and expanding their
practice, the idea of how it'spracticed, and I think if we
bring niche coaches together, itsays a special energy.
At the moment we bring coachestogether that just love to
expand their idea of coaching.
You always pick up a newtechnique or something from any
coach that you watch live.
(27:54):
But yes, that's where I see itgoing and for that membership
system just really works becausethen we're not so busy
marketing every event.
You know people commit to beinga part of that community of
practice.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That is fantastic.
Well, we're going to shiftagain, because you've used the
word and I know that youreducation is around
existentialism, and so I'd lovefor you maybe to just unpack
what that is, because I knowthat some of the listeners they
may say, yes, maybe they'veheard it, maybe they haven't.
So what is existentialism andwhat is that?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
when we look at that through the coaching ones, I
always have to smile a littlebit when I think existentialism
in a nutshell, because it's,it's yeah, it's complex, I think
I'd like to believe over theyears I kind of got okay at
narrowing it down to theessential of what it is.
So, essentially, existentialismas an, as a branch of
(28:56):
philosophy, it's a philosophy ofhuman lived existence, of the
experience of existing, theexperience of being human, right
being human as well.
What do we know about beinghuman when we strip all of the
all of the kind of labels away?
Right, when you just thinkabout being there.
That's what we are.
(29:17):
Hi, daga Sartre, albert Camus,this Kazun, kierkegaard, fritich
Nietzsche, you know there's alot of these philosophers that
started thinking about what doesit mean to just be there, you
know, not be a coach, not beGerman or American, not be right
wing, left wing, republican,democrat if you strip all of
(29:39):
that away man, woman, likeparents, what's left when we are
just there?
That's the human condition.
The human condition ischaracterized by anxiety, not
the kind of anxiety that you getmaybe ahead of a presentation
or public speaking gig, but theexistential anxiety, the anxiety
(30:01):
that you get as a result ofjust being human in the world,
with other humans.
It's characterized by certaintensions, by certain conflicts
that nobody can escape unlessthey stop existing or they
continuously keep themselvesbusy and distract themselves
from the human experience.
(30:22):
We have that people after 20years of work they're like who
am I now?
Where did all of this time go?
Just keep busy.
When we become still, sometimeswe notice it bubbling up and
then often we distract ourselveswith something.
So, for example, we like to notthink about endings, endings,
(30:48):
temporality, death as perhapsthe ultimate ending, at least as
far as we can know.
Things with what you believe isabout what comes after death or
not.
I know I'm talking to someonewith a particular perspective on
this, but it doesn't matter somuch what you believe comes
after.
What we know is that it's asignificant ending, perhaps the
(31:09):
most significant endings ofendings of all.
Maybe it's just black, or maybethere's some sort of paradise,
maybe there's some sort ofafterlife, but it is a
significant change in humanexperience and endings are
everywhere.
It's not just death, buteverything is temporal.
We always move into differentphases.
Every change process requiresan ending and a new beginning.
(31:33):
So endings are part of thefabric of human existence and we
need them because deadlineshelp us to get you done.
So many people rely on them.
But also they cause someanxiety.
We don't really want to focuson things ending, especially
when they're nice, but it offersmeaning and purpose to our life
(31:57):
.
It does something.
So we have this paradoxicalrelationship with endings.
Same thing with relating toother people.
Barbara wrote that hell isother people.
We naturally compare ourselvesto others, but we're social
animals.
We need the group.
We couldn't survive without thegroup.
So we love the group, we hatethe group.
We need the group and it'scausing us so much pain and
(32:19):
suffering.
So it's both and it'sparadoxical.
It's tension, but we feed offthat tension.
Absurdity, meaninglessness it'sa third existential given.
If there is a meaning of lifewe couldn't know, we can have
faith, but we can't know it.
(32:41):
We can create meaning in ourlife.
We can choose things to bemeaningful, we can create
meaning and suffering, but anoverarching meaning to our
existence.
The best we can do is believein it.
So existentialists have arguedthat well, there's absurdity in
(33:01):
life.
That is just one of the givens.
Because meaninglessness wecannot make sense of certain
things, at least not withcertainty.
So that's part of the humanexistence.
We have meaning-making machines, always make meaning, we always
make sense of things, quitenaturally, but we cannot ever be
sure whether that's correctmeaning.
So many different meaningstructures.
(33:25):
What I believe is right,somebody else thinks is
despicable.
What saved the children fromcancer?
Are you crazy?
Have you thought aboutoverpopulation?
Okay, some people say we needwar and destruction because that
is a natural way of balancingout the production.
So it's important that we'refighting.
(33:46):
I'm not sure I'll think aboutthat, but I could see the
argument.
And then freedom.
Freedom is often hailed as thisuber-positive thing that
everybody should be striving for.
But you give someone way toomuch freedom and they're going
to experience what Zeran Kukugo,one of the first people, wrote
(34:07):
about existentialism, danishphilosopher talks about as the
dizziness of freedom.
Very simple experiment that wasdone.
Once You're in the supermarket,you offer people a free
mommelade, free jam.
You offer them three, peopleleave happy.
You offer them 23, and theyleave many leaves.
The majority leaves with oh,there could have been a better
(34:29):
choice.
Oh, I have chosen correctly.
I have made the most out ofthis opportunity.
Oh, they can't.
I mean, I've been to asupermarket once wanting to buy
cereal and left without buying acereal because I didn't want to
go through the choice.
I think most of us have beenthere despairing over what to
(34:51):
pick from the lunch menu,because you can never ever go
back.
You can never go back and make adifferent choice at that moment
in time.
So every choice excludes allthe other opportunities, all the
other choices.
You can only choose one out ofthe gazillion choices that you
have and think about choosing aromantic partner or a job or a
(35:11):
career where to study.
So huge choices, small choices.
There's always existentialanxiety if you pay attention to
it, because you've got to own it.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
You've got to own your choice.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yes, and you need to come to terms with never finding
out whether a different choicewould have been better or worse
or just different.
You will never, ever know,because you can never go back
and make the other choice.
Absurdity, freedom, death,isolation that's kind of been
(35:47):
framed as the existential givens, what characterizes the human
condition.
Existential coaches learn tolisten to their client's
relationship with these givens.
I think in that when we listento that, when we pick it up and
it can be very subtle, what canbe very much in your face.
(36:07):
I've learned in my coachingpractice that whatever a client
brings into the coaching roomthe presenting issue, if you
will it's always connected toone or more of these existential
themes, of these biggerquestions in life.
Why am I here?
For?
What am I doing with my time?
Is there a God?
(36:28):
What does he, she it, want meto do?
What's my purpose?
How can I live a meaningfulexistence, how can I be happy?
There's big questions in lifethat don't have one answer.
They have many answers,possibly, but people need to
find their answer.
There's no certainty whetherthat's the right answer.
(36:48):
These bigger questions, they'realways there underneath the
surface.
Sometimes they're very much inyour face.
As an existential coach.
I like to make thoseconnections because it opens up
different conversations than ifI were to just jump on what the
presenting issue is and let'screate a goal and action plan
(37:08):
out of that.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Very interesting, so that it seems to me that that
would be a very rich coachingconversation as you process
through those things, for sure.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Yeah, it can be.
Now I'm quite branded as anexistential coach.
I talk about it quite a lot.
I think that heightens thetendency that somebody comes to
me with a big question to startoff with and we have sometimes a
philosophical discussion aboutwhat does it mean to be
authentic?
(37:46):
as a leader or as a parent or asa friend, have a conversation
about dilemma and paradox andtension, conflict.
But I've done quite a lot ofwork with an agency, for example
, in New York, working with alot of tech startups at the East
Coast, at the West Coast, andthere's a lot of people coming
(38:08):
in.
They're not interested in aphilosophical debate, they're
not interested in anyphilosophical concepts and we
never mention anythingexistential.
But these are human issues.
They're always in the room.
Questions around belonging, forexample.
It's almost always in the roomin some way or another and
(38:28):
sometimes it's the client'sdominant conflict and it
influences all of these thingsthat they bring into the
coaching room, even if they havenever mentioned the term
belonging.
I'm quite big picture, so I pickup on some of these broader
themes and with an existentiallens and a big picture lens, I
can invite a conversation abouta bigger theme.
(38:48):
But that's not necessarilynecessary.
We can also.
I can also just notice them andif it keeps coming back, I'll
put it on the table and probablyinvite a conversation about it.
But I'm not making everyconversation existential because
it's not needed.
Like I mentioned earlier,sometimes you do an existential
(39:09):
coaching demo and you set out tohave an existential
conversation and it just doesn'tgo that way.
And because how much time doyou have and what do you want to
achieve?
If it's something that is quitetangible and the client wants
to have that conversation, well,there's probably other clients
that I might be a bit moreexcited about.
And if we're together and, asthe existentialists invite us,
(39:32):
just commit to the thing thatyou're doing now.
If something's boring, as longas soon as you commit to it, it
just stops being boring.
So not every existential coachhas philosophical conversations.
It just means that it's a lensthat offers more possibility to
have different kinds ofconversations.
(39:54):
And not every systemic coachwill talk openly about the
influences of the system, but wealso will always notice them,
right, right, and that just addsmore.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Right For Christian coaches.
Now, if I'm with a client whois Christian and they're open to
exploring that avenue, that'sfine.
But I'll still use the sameprinciples of Christianity with
a corporate client.
It's the same thing, I'm justI'm not verbalizing with a
Christian lens, so I get that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, and one thing that's probably worth mentioning
to maybe predominantlyChristian audience is that
existentialism sometimes gets areputation of being full of
atheists, and there's probably atrend towards when you hear
nothingness and absurdity at thecenter of the human experience,
(40:47):
I'm sure it would wrap a lot ofChristians the wrong way.
Yeah, but really and actuallythere's been quite a lot of
existentialists who come fromtheism who had a very strong
personal relationship with God.
You know, I think allexistentialists, they're
critical towards dogma, right.
(41:09):
So they would encourage peopleto question where your beliefs
are coming from, right, andevaluating stories that you have
just been handed down and buildyour own relationship with them
.
But that doesn't necessarilymean you're going to stop
believing in God.
It just means that, oh, maybeyou're going to break with
organized religion.
So that's what SirinKierkegaard, for example, that
(41:31):
happened.
He broke with the church, buthe was a devout Christian.
So as a whole book, christianexistentialism, it's a very good
book for anybody who'slistening to this that has that
kind of lens, and I like thephilosophy, because everybody
who's human seems to really getit, because it's about the human
(41:54):
experience.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
But it doesn't tell you this is a right or wrong way
to live.
It just means it just invitesus and encourages us to question
, to doubt, to be critical, tocreate your own thing, even if
you are critical and you'redoubting and you're questioning,
and then you arrive exactlywhere you left off, at least.
(42:18):
Now it's sunken in and you'vechallenged it and you decided
that this is something I can own.
And the experience of havinggone through a process like that
doesn't necessarily mean you'remaking a lot of changes in your
life, but it means now theexperience is one where you
really own your life and yourdecisions and you take
(42:40):
responsibility for the choicesthat you make, rather than life
happening to you.
You're now there in this,you're the captain and some
things there.
We call it facticity.
You can't choose which languageyou're going to grow up with.
You can't choose some of yourphysical features.
I mean you can choose a lot ofphysical features nowadays.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Nowadays yes.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Modern surgery.
But there are certain thingsyou just can't change, and
coming to terms with that isreally helpful.
So what can I change, what canI not change?
And then owning responsibilityfor our choices what have I
chosen?
What have I chosen?
Not to choose?
Where have I chosen to not takeany action?
(43:24):
Where have I chosen to sit backand see how things play out?
That's a choice.
So, ah, so you chose not tochoose, you know.
And just that frame is reallyhelpful.
And to me it helped to take allof these coaching tools,
interventions, questions, linesof inquiry, models and integrate
(43:47):
them into an existentialgrounding, because
existentialism offers a way ofunderstanding my relationship
with myself and with the worldand with others.
And within that it's quitefertile ground to draw in my
positive psychology background,for example, or draw in
(44:08):
something from psychodynamic, ordraw in something from TA or,
you know, a systemic wementioned.
There are so many coachingapproaches out there.
It's compatible with quite alot of them and in conflict with
some others, but I just I lovethat as a foundation because I
feel at home there and it allowsme.
(44:29):
It's solid enough to work as afoundation and it's flexible
enough to allow me to evolve.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Wow, well, thank you for that.
Thank you for just unpackingthat at the level you did.
So it's understandable forpeople to not just hear the word
, but to have a betterunderstanding about what it is
and how they can connect withthat.
So thank you for that.
Well, yannick, I would love tobe able to point people to you.
(45:00):
How can people connect with you?
Maybe they've heard somethingtoday, maybe they've heard about
that coaching lab and they wantto check that out or just learn
more about you and the servicesthat you provide.
How can we point them in yourdirection?
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Sure, so coaches can ideally go to
rocketsupervisioncom.
I could go into rocket metaphor.
I love that as well.
Rocket supervisioncom, as youwould spell it, is my hub for
coaches, with all the resources.
There's also a link to thecoaching lab, or you can go to
gocoachinglabcom directly, andmy other work I do with
(45:39):
non-coaches, so to speak, is atexistentialcoach, so
wwwexistentialcoach, and find meon YouTube, linkedin.
I'm out there if you Google me.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay, and then where can people find your book?
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Oh, an introduction to existential coaching.
I think it's an all majorbookstore.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Srouled.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Litch is a pretty spot on publisher, so you have
no problem finding that.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Okay, good, very good , we'll make sure that those go
in the show notes.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us on Conversations
Today.
It's been a rich conversation.
I learned some things and Iappreciate that, and I love that
we kind of went around theblock with quite a bit of
information during the session.
So thank you for that Brilliant.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Kelly, thank you so much for the platform, really
appreciated being here and Ifeel there's so many questions
that I could ask you.
So I think we might need tohave another one of these,
because I feel there's a lotmore that you could offer in
response or in dialogue.
You know, and coaches lovedialogue, so sometimes I fall
into this interview mode whenyou give me the right question
(46:52):
and I mean you just witnessed it.
I just kind of go for a while,especially when it's a complex
concept.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it is a complex concept, but you were able to
break it down and I appreciatethat.
It's important, especially forthis platform.
For people not to you know,things can be pretty lofty, and
so it's important the work thatI do.
I'm a very simple person.
I don't use big words.
I like things broken down so Ican understand them and then I
(47:18):
can explain them better to otherpeople.
So I appreciate you and untilnext time, you keep doing great
things and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
You're welcome.
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com