February 10, 2025 • 32 mins
In today's workplace, authentic leadership is the key to creating a culture of excellence. Kyle McDowell shares his transformative "10 We" principles aimed at guiding leaders to inspire their teams through trust, accountability, and empathy. Purchase Begin with We on Amazon or on Kyle's website: kylemcdowellinc.com
Join us as we talk about Kyle's best selling book and topics that include:
• Transforming from traditional management to authentic leadership
• Importance of principle-based leadership
• Building trust through open communication and transparency
• The ripple effect of ethical leadership on personal lives
• Navigating generational gaps with empathy
• Embracing challenges and learning from mistakes
• Nurturing a culture that values shared accountability
• The importance of doing the right thing always
• Inspiring a connection with team members for better outcomes
• The necessity for leaders to engage personally and authentically
Connect with Kyle @ https://www.instagram.com/kylemcdowellinc/ https://www.tiktok.com/@kylemcdowellinc https://www.youtube.com/@kylemcdowellinc https://www.facebook.com/KyleMcDowellInc https://twitter.com/KyleMcDowellInc www.linkedin.com/in/kylemcdowellinc
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (00:01):
All right.
Well, hey there, and welcome toConversations where today we
have Kyle McDowell, who is aformer Fortune 10 executive,
turned inspirational speaker,bestselling author and
leadership coach.
Kyle is on a quest to createcultures of excellence and
reignite leaders' passion andpurpose.
With nearly three decades ofexperience leading tens of
(00:24):
thousands of employees as someof America's biggest firms,
mcdowell's philosophy is rootedin his trademark principles the
10 Whees.
While today's workforce isplayed with uncertainty and
apathy, his strategy is simpleBegin with we Welcome, and how
are you today?
Kyle McDowell (00:43):
Hey, Dr Kelly man , I'm really great.
Thank you for having me.
Good to see you again.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (00:47):
Absolutely.
It's good to see you again too,and before we get into some of
those 10 wheeze, I'd like tomention that the cover of your
book has that you are a WallStreet Journal and USA
bestseller.
How does that happen?
Kyle McDowell (01:03):
I don't know, I mean I wish I had a better
answer.
So when I decided to write mybook, I remember vividly having
a conversation with my wife andI was.
I told her, if I sell athousand copies I'll be over the
moon.
And we have far eclipsed beyondwhat my wildest expectations
were.
I think we're just we'rehovering right around 30,000
(01:24):
copies at this point.
But the USA Today, wall StreetJournal bestseller badges those
came the first week of releasewhen there was a bit of a rush.
And you know I wrestle, dr Kelly, I wrestle with sometimes
sharing some sales numbersbecause it sounds arrogant or
like I'm self-promoting and I'mreally not.
What it's told me is thatthere's a need for these
(01:46):
principles, there is a need fora different way of leading,
there's a need for feeling lessapathetic about the work
environment in which you operate.
So that's what fuels me now isknowing that these principles
are landing, and they're landingin a way that is helping people
kind of transform theirposition as a boss into a
genuine leader.
People kind of transform theirposition as a boss into a
(02:08):
genuine leader, one that caresmore about those around them
than their own accolades.
And then, of course, when we dothat, naturally we benefit as
well.
So it just fuels me now thesales numbers.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (02:18):
Yeah, well, and I think you're absolutely
right.
I mean, those numbers show thatthere is a need and it is
principle-based leadership,right?
So which could look a littlebit different.
So, when you think about that,what does that mean to you,
principle-based leadership,compared to all the other
leaderships that are out there?
Kyle McDowell (02:37):
Yeah, I love that you asked that question,
because I do think there is abit of a difference between
someone who's led at scale asyou mentioned in the bio tens of
thousands of employees atreally massive organizations to
authors or frameworks that havenot done it.
I do think experience matters,and when we talk about
(02:58):
principle-based leadership,let's remember a principle, by
definition, is our fundamentalsystem of truths or our system
of beliefs.
That's, that's the definitionof a principle.
So what I?
What I learned and I stumbledon it because I led for 20 plus
years with no leadershipprinciples.
I just the old command andcontrol kind of banged my fist
on the desk style, you know,results at all costs was
(03:21):
essentially how I operated untilI operated, until I stumbled
upon principle-based leadership,and what I learned is when you
establish leadership principles,like the things that are
non-negotiable, what is myfoundation of beliefs as it
relates to being a leader?
When you align a group ofpeople, a team, around a series
(03:42):
of principles, they becomealmost like a code of conduct,
and they become a culturalcurrency.
What matters most though orit's all dead on arrival, has no
chance of sustaining is if theleader him or herself don't live
them.
They don't live the principles.
And that's where I think a lotof us, including me, have gotten
(04:04):
in trouble.
It and say, hey, here's who weare, here's how we're going to
operate, I want us to be knownfor these things.
And then I'm behaving in acontrary fashion.
You know, 30 minutes later in adifferent meeting.
It's hard for people to trustand follow that.
So when I established theseprinciples, I shared them with
my team at the time, the top 40or 50 leaders of about a 10,000,
(04:28):
no 15,000 person organization,and I kind of stepped back and I
didn't force them on anyone.
I just wanted them to know.
These are the rules that youcan expect from me, the behavior
you can and the expectationsyou should have of me, and I'm
going to hold you just asaccountable.
But I led first by saying Ineed to be held accountable to
these.
So now we have these principlesthat if you're on this team you
have subscribed to them.
You can't be on this teamwithout saying, yes, I support
(04:50):
the 10 wheeze, by the way,they're so simple, they're not
super controversial.
So if anybody were to say Idon't subscribe to any one of
those, you probably don't wantthem on your team anyway.
But I think, to kind of closeout, the answer here is most
organizations do, I think, apretty fine job of onboarding
employees to say here's how youdo your job, here are the
policies and procedures, thestandard operating procedures,
(05:11):
here is how you do the functionrelated to the role that you've
been assigned.
But where most organizationsfall short is establishing these
expectations for how we treatone another, our expectations
for making good on ourcommitments behind the curtain.
For one another.
How we treat one anothermatters a whole lot and our
(05:33):
clients can feel that.
So if we're high functioningbehind the curtains, take care
of each other, lift each otherup, challenge each other to be
the best we can be, ourcustomers naturally feel that
it's when we try to flip aswitch and say we're one thing
behind the curtains that we'renot externally.
Ultimately.
Ultimately, those twoidentities will collide and the
customer sees it.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (05:48):
Absolutely.
They see it.
Everybody around sees thatRight.
So let's hop into some of those.
Why don't you unpack some ofyour 10 wheeze there?
What comes to mind first andforemost?
Kyle McDowell (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to, but I must give this
caveat I always I must twofold.
First is, as I share a few ofthese, or all of these, your
audience is probably going tosay to themselves well, this is
so simple, or I already do thesethings, and indeed they are
simple, they're incrediblysimple.
Simple does not mean easy,that's right.
(06:19):
Like we know how to lose abunch of weight, we know how to
put on muscle, we know on muscle, we know how to do all these
things.
They're simple but they're noteasy.
They take commitment anddiscipline and so on.
So simple is not easy.
And then the other is as Ishare them, I think it's really
important.
This has been an unintendedbyproduct.
That's been so fulfilling andheartwarming to me is the impact
(06:43):
the principles are having onreaders' personal lives, me
included, actually, and I neverintended these principles to
transcend the workplace, but itturns out shocker that if you're
a good person and you take careof others behind the scenes,
take care of those kind of inyour charge in a work setting,
you could probably do the samein your personal life.
(07:04):
But we have to commit to notbeing two different people and I
think that's where a lot of usfall short is behave a certain
way inside the workplace than wedo outside.
And then there's this hypocrisy, at least in my brain, that
creeps in and says dude, you'renot being authentic, you can't
be trusted on either side.
So as I walk through them,remember these are for life.
They can be just as importantand impactful in our personal
(07:24):
lives, and probably none moreimportant than the very first we
, which is non-negotiable likethe rest of them, but it sets
the foundation.
We do the right thing always,and I never leave out that one
word, second sentence always,because in business and
certainly most aspects of ourlives, there's a lot of gray and
making the right decision ordoing the right thing is tough
(07:46):
and identifying what the rightthing is tough, and I walked the
reader through kind of somemodels to get there.
But if we can't align on that,then everything else is a house
of cards and it's going totumble.
So we're going to do the rightthing, regardless of who's
watching, who's not watching,regardless of who benefits or
doesn't benefit.
We're going to do the rightthing.
And then they kind of expandand grow upon one another and
(08:07):
I'll just run through themwithout a huge summary of each,
but they kind of stand on theirown once we realize where they
sit in all 10.
So we go from.
We do the right thing always,and for me, the number one,
primary way that I candemonstrate, as a leader, that
I'm committed to doing the rightthing is to lead by example.
The question is not.
Should I lead by example?
You already are.
You're leading by an example.
(08:28):
The question is do you wantthat example to be replicated?
Is it something you'd be proudof?
You want to see other peoplebehave in a similar way.
So you've got to set thatexample for others to say this
is the standard, this is how webehave.
And to demonstrate my commitmentto leading by example comes
with number three.
We say what we're going to doand then we do it.
It's that simple.
When we make a commitment to acustomer or someone outside of
(08:50):
the work, outside of our workteam, you know the, the
expectation and understanding iswe'll deliver on that.
Well, it should be no differentfor us behind the curtains.
Kelly, if I promise to get youan email by five o'clock, you're
going to have it, and if not,you're going to have it, and if
not, you're going to know wellin advance.
I've been I think we all havebeen so frustrated throughout
our careers where, you know, adifferent functional department
(09:13):
was responsible for giving mesomething that I needed to take
somewhere else, maybe to aclient or to the board or
someone more senior in theorganization.
When that domino doesn't fall,the rest don't fall, and then
we're all.
We all have egg in our face atthat point, so we've got to make
good on our commitments.
To do that leads us to wenumber four it's we take action.
Taking action and making amistake is completely fine, but
being idle and doing nothing isunacceptable.
(09:34):
So when you see things insidethe team, inside your
organization, that needattention, we don't just turn a
cheek to them.
We surface them.
We may not address them rightaway, but they're certainly
going to be a part of aninventory of things that we want
to get better at or approach.
The TSA says if you seesomething, say something In a
culture of excellence.
If you see something, we dosomething.
We don't just let it sit idle.
If you want people to takeaction, though and you know this
(09:58):
better than anybody is we'vegot to be prepared for mistakes,
and we need members of the teamto recognize mistakes truly are
an opportunity to get better.
They really are right, it's okay.
It's okay to make mistakes.
That's why this one's soimportant.
If you don't own the mistakesand that's we number five we own
our mistakes.
If we don't own our mistakes,we can't learn from them, we
can't get better, we can'tcreate new policies and
(10:20):
procedures to ensure it doesn'thappen again.
So we got to be open about ourmistakes.
I like to be tough on problems,not tough on the people that
discovered or created theproblem.
Even when we own our mistakes,we must follow that with we
number six, which is we pickeach other up.
I think it's every one of ourhuman obligations.
When someone's down strugglingmaybe they've got a sick kid or
(10:41):
an ailing parent or whatever'sgoing we all bring baggage to
work, right.
So when we bring that baggageto work, it's important for each
of us to remember that we allhave that baggage, Whatever it
is for each of us is different,but we're going to pick each
other up.
And I think it goes a stepfurther for those in a position
of authority or leadership role.
We've got to lift others to newheights.
(11:01):
So, members of the team thatwant to do more, even outside
your team, it's an obligation,as the leader of that team to
help position them and enablethem to be better than they were
yesterday, and even if thatmeans leaving your team, that's
the right thing to do.
We're biologically wired tohelp one another, but over time
the workplace has said no, no,it's more of a dog eat dog.
We're not going to help eachother, we're just going to be
(11:23):
the best we can individually andlet our accolades take care of
the rest.
But I don't see it that way.
I think we have to lift eachother up when they're down, and
then we also have to lift themup when it's time and they want
to go do something different onyour team or out of your team.
And then the last handful, lastfour, become a little more
difficult and direct.
(11:45):
And it starts with we numberseven it's we measure ourselves
by outcomes, not activity.
I don't care how many meetingsyou were in, I don't care if you
were double booked or triplebooked.
I like to set an expectationand get out of the way.
It's like Dr Kelly.
Here are the lists of thingsthat are that you're responsible
for in the role that you hold.
Do you understand all of them?
Yes, what do you need from me?
What barriers can I remove?
(12:07):
How do I enable you to be yourabsolute best?
What can I do as your leader?
And then after that, I'm onlygoing to judge you by the
outcomes.
If it takes you four or 40hours, it's irrelevant to me,
because we've established whatthe expectation is when you're
going to deliver, the quality ofthat expectation, of that
delivery.
So I like to say I'm reallyhappy that my Uber driver stops
(12:29):
to get gas before they pick meup, but I'm not paying for that.
I'm paying to get from A to B.
That's how the real worldoperates.
We pay for outcomes.
Matter of fact, if our clientsknew how much time we spend kind
of shuffling from meeting tomeeting, with really no
discernible outcomes, and howmuch, how many calories we burn
on things that don't add valueto what they've bought or what
they're going to buy, or theservice that they purchased from
(12:51):
us, They'd be they'd beprobably frustrated.
You know why are you spendingso much time on things that
don't add value to the productthat I care about, that I'm
buying?
My favorite of all theprinciples is we number eight.
We challenge each other.
I think the old model, theirweight.
We're going to do it Now.
(13:25):
It's got to be diplomatic andall challenges must be grounded
in either data or experience.
Otherwise it's your opinion andthere's probably no real way to
get to the bottom or what's theoptimal outcomes if we're just
casting opinions.
So we've got to use facts anddata.
If we're going to live withnumber eight, we must subscribe
to we number nine, and that's.
We embrace challenge, Whetherthose challenges come from
(13:46):
external forces, the boss's boss, management, whoever it is.
But we're going to embracechallenge, we're going to look
them in the eye and we're goingto be galvanized by them.
We're going to be realistic andsay this is really tough or
this might require some extrahours, it might require more
manpower, but we're not going toshy away from it.
We're going to galvanize andlock arms and we're going to
(14:08):
address it because we knowtogether we can overcome just
about anything, Individually notso much.
So we're going to embracechallenges.
It's incredibly important.
They're all learningopportunities and they fuel our
growth.
And then the last one is prettysimple, but it's purposeful.
I was purposeful to leave it asnumber 10 because I think any
earlier in the list it's goingto be a recipe for
disappointment.
We number 10 is we obsess overdetails.
(14:30):
Details are what makes orseparates good from great and
great from excellent andexcellent from world-class.
Those details, they reallymatter, and it's typically in
most spaces, most industries,the smallest of details is what
determines the path the consumertakes.
Do you want your productmanuals littered with typos and
(14:52):
bad grammar or do you want anApple experience where the
sticker telling you whichdirection to pull, that sticker
to open this box that is sosnugly put together?
You know they put engineers inrooms for months on end,
literally months on end, just todesign boxes, Because that
unboxing experience says, and itcommunicates the level of
detail and concern that we havefor the product you just
(15:14):
purchased and it instills trust.
So we're going to obsess overdetails, not perfection, but
we're going to obsess over thelittle things that others might
not.
That's going to make usexcellent and create our kind of
, create the distance between usand those with whom we compete.
That's the 10 weeks.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (15:29):
And I love every single one of them.
And you said at the beginninghow you know you're going to
find that they are simple, andthey are simple, like, when I
read those, it's like these areso simple.
But then I see, bringing iteven, you know cause my wheels
started turning about.
Okay, how would I use this, youknow, for a team, and it would
even be being able to do anexercise with them, you know,
(15:51):
pointing them and saying whereare we really strong, like which
we are, we are we really strongand where might we need to
spend some time and reallyunpack that?
Kyle McDowell (16:03):
And that's exactly so.
So we have a workbook that goeswith the book.
Yeah, really, it's really cool.
So it has this reflectionperiods and experience periods
and, you know, a lot ofinteraction, and so we we sell
that as kind of a standalone.
But also many times I've hadclients say hey, kyle, can you
come lead us and walk us throughthis?
And I do exactly what you justsaid.
(16:24):
Let's get them out on the table.
Everybody understand and becomeintimate with them and let's be
really open and vulnerableabout what we have an
opportunity to be better at,versus hey, we're pretty good at
this, let's keep this going.
And that dialogue, it creates anomenclature almost.
It creates a differentvernacular inside of a team.
It's like hey, dr Kelly, you'vebeen struggling with X, y or Z
(16:48):
and we challenge each other,right.
So I'm here, I'm gonna pick youup, but I need to understand
you know what's, what's behindthis challenge.
It creates, it allows kind ofopening sentences or premises to
be.
It makes it easier to haveawkward conversations.
When we're all subscribed, weall know what we have to get
better at, those that we're notso proficient at.
And it gives us these guiderails, which I think is so
(17:09):
lacking in so many organizations.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (17:12):
It's interesting that you mentioned
that about.
You know those, maybe those,some of those conversations that
could be difficult, because youI think it's in number six
where you talk about yourconversation with Robert and you
were a young director at thetime and so there was this
generational difference.
Right, I'd love to hear maybeyou know that is so practical,
(17:35):
you know, but I'd love maybe foryou to say a little bit more
about that and how you know weare with all the generations
that are in the workplace nowhow really to help a leader,
regardless of where you are, ifyou're a young director, like
you were, and you were talkingto somebody who wasn't so young,
why don't you say a little bitabout that?
Kyle McDowell (17:56):
Man, you've done your homework and I appreciate
that.
The story you're mentioninghappened when I was in the book
I was probably mid-20s at best.
I led a group of I don't knoweight, 10 people I don't
remember the exact number but amember on the team, a guy by the
name of Robert at the time, wasprobably late 60s Vietnam War
(18:19):
veteran.
We could not have been moredifferent.
Someone to whom I couldn'trelate but of course had an
enormous amount of respect forhim, and he wore the veteran
experience on his body.
He walked with a shuffle, hewas a little slower probably
than he was earlier in his life,like he had some scars and
(18:42):
typically was a pretty goodperformer just kind of a quiet
guy, stayed in his own lane,just banged out reports,
whatever it was that we askedhim to do Great guy actually.
But I noticed that hisperformance started to slide and
I knew I needed to have areally tough conversation.
And when you're 25 and you needto sit down with a guy in his
late 60s to tell him he's notcutting it, I think there are
two paths.
I think there are two paths.
(19:05):
The path that I took.
The first I took more oftenthan not, I should say is you
know, hey, your results are down, get them up.
Or else.
Or you just ask hey, what'sgoing on?
Man, you know, I've noticed youwere at, you've been performing
here and lately it's kind ofslid to here.
So that experience with Robert.
I pulled him into a smalllittle conference room he didn't
have an office at the time andjust kind of asked a lot of
(19:28):
questions before I pounced onthe poor performance.
Turned out he was dealing witha very, very sick spouse.
His wife was ailing.
So of course his performancewould suffer, of course his
engagement would suffer.
But the highlight of the wholestory and I'm really grateful
you gave me the chance to shareit is after, kind of.
I mean, I had to be vulnerable,I couldn't be the boss.
I had to just ask another humanbeing what was going on, why he
(19:50):
was struggling, and at the endof the whole he opened up more
than I expected.
At the end of the conversationwe stood up, he reached across
the table and shook my hand andhe said I respect you.
And I said that's great, robert.
Okay, cool, he goes.
You know why I respect you?
I said no, he said because youlooked me in the eye when you
shook my hand and it sounds kindof I don't know, trite or even
(20:17):
trivial at this point, some 20years later.
I'll never forget it, like Iremember it, like it was
yesterday.
But also there was a connectionbetween two humans that
transcended a work relationship,where someone wasn't cutting it
and someone had the authorityquote unquote to do something
about it.
There's two humans connectingon something much more important
, much bigger.
His results turned aroundalmost immediately because now
the team knew he was strugglingand knew he needed a bit of a
pick me up.
(20:37):
I didn't have the 10 weeks tolean on back in those days, but
it was a really beautifulexperience and I'm glad you
called it out.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (20:46):
Well, I and I and I love that because it is
that, that human component thatso many leaders I think that
it's turning.
The tides are turning a littlebit.
You know, like, like you saidbefore, it's not.
You know it used to be thecommand and in charge and
beating your hand on the on thedesk, but now it's more.
You know it used to be thecommand and in charge and
beating your hand on the desk,but now it's more.
(21:07):
You know, human to human.
And what is that?
And how can we bring our peoplein, you know, to conversations
and have them be authentic withus, and have us be authentic
with them and really get to theroot of what's going on.
That's the goal.
Kyle McDowell (21:21):
That is the goal to the root of what's going on.
That's the goal.
That is the goal and you hit it.
You hit the nail on the headand I'm sure your audience and
anyone that's kind of anyonewith a job knows that the
workforce has changed the um,the way to be an effective
leader has changed the workforceyou know, for for decades, if
not centuries, organizationswere able to say this is how it
(21:44):
is, this is who we are, like itor not, and you can work here or
not.
Over the last decade or so, thathas radically shifted.
With the proliferation of workat home, with the gig economy,
employees have way more optionsthan they ever have before and
they are flexing those optionsby the massive turnover we see
(22:07):
in in a lot of organizations.
In other words, I don't I don'tnecessarily have to put up with
you, boss, because I can have avery similar role, making very
similar money in a for anorganization across the country.
And, by the way, I can do it inmy pajamas all day, in front of
a desk or at home.
So it is a differentenvironment and to be an
(22:29):
effective leader, we all mustditch this old leadership
playbook and actually connectwith those that we lead and when
we connect, there's trust andthere's so many outcomes that
can be found well over and abovejust this boss-subordinate
relationship that we all kind ofgrew up with.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (22:46):
Now creating that space is imperative to
having those conversations.
That story really touched me.
And then the other piece whereI think is changing more is you
talk about understanding how thesausage is made, which I don't
think that people reallyunderstand the importance of
(23:07):
that.
Kyle McDowell (23:08):
And so that, yeah , so when I, when I found myself
in these rooms with these, youknow, influential, important
leaders, and they would ask me aquestion about hey, how's your
team going or how's this workingout, they would ask questions
that made it obvious to me theyhad no idea what I did, they had
no idea of the struggles thatmy team was dealing with, the
struggles that I was dealingwith, but they were being good
(23:28):
citizens of the company and were, you know, being good humans
asking questions.
And when I juxtapose that withthose that asked you know, you
know, senior folks or reallyanyone that would ask a question
, but you knew they knew enoughto ask a good question, they
understood, you know outcome,they understood the conflict
that comes with some functionalareas or departments, and I
(23:50):
always left more motivated,inspired, that this guy actually
knew what I was doing, this guyor this gal, this really senior
person in the organization,they asked a question that told
me they've done their homework,they've looked over our, looked
over our numbers, or theythey're, they have, they know
how we do what we do, how we getthe sausage out.
So I just found it and somewill disagree with this notion,
(24:14):
dr Kelly, is that, um, you know,I don't need to get in their
sandbox.
I just, you know, I just needto know enough to lead them and
answer questions.
And I think that there may betrue.
That may be true in someenvironments, but when the when
a team member senses, oroutright knows, that I am
connected enough with what theydo to ask good questions, and
that doesn't happen right out ofthe gate, right?
(24:34):
You?
Sometimes, if you're new to therole, you have to learn, but
learning what it is that yourteam does and the struggles that
they encounter, the hurdlesthat they deal with, the
roadblocks, the noise that's inthe way of them being excellent,
how can you ever get that outof the system and out of their
way, enabling them to be theirbest, if you don't know what
they are?
You must know the challengesthat they face.
(24:56):
You must know the struggles andthe roadblocks and hurdles.
I think we have two jobs.
As leaders of people, we havereally two fundamental jobs.
The first is to identify withthe team, identify and remove as
much noise, as many of thethings that stand in the way of
them being excellent as possible.
(25:16):
It could be better training, itcould be better technology, it
could be a different schedule,it could be a work at home type
thing, giving them moreflexibility.
You know, depending on the role.
That's job one.
Job two is to inspire andmotivate to deliver results in
spite of the things you couldn'tget out of the way, cause
you're never going to get up.
It's it's.
It's called work.
It's not going to be a walk inthe park every single day.
(25:39):
There are going to be thingsthat we struggle to, to, to
address and get out of thesystem.
So, in spite of those that'swhen the we embrace challenge
part comes in we're going tolock arms and say, in spite of
these things that I couldn't getout of the way, we're going to
be excellent.
And if not, we're going to tryreally hard to be excellent and
learn from whatever shortcomingmight come.
(25:59):
But you can't, you'll never getto that point unless you
understand what it is the teamdoes.
What do your people do?
You're not on some pedestalthat says I don't need to know
those details.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (26:08):
You do need to know those details you do need
to know, absolutely.
Kyle McDowell (26:11):
I love that question.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (26:14):
Well thanks.
Oh well, this has been anamazing conversation.
I know that we could probablygo on and on, you know, for
hours, because you have just somuch wisdom for what you bring.
I would like to just ask At thebeginning of your book, there's
(26:35):
two things that I noticed, andthe first one was about how
sweet it was that you wereinspired by your parents.
And so this is you now, butmaybe if you can just touch on
what was that Like, how did theyinspire you?
Your work ethic?
Kyle McDowell (26:55):
So my parents were both so we were.
I grew up middle-class at best,you know we weren't poor, but
we weren't by any means wealthyby any stretch of the
imagination, and both of myparents were lifelong career
driven people.
My dad was in sales, my mombegan her career in sales, and
(27:16):
both 100% commission-based roles.
So if they didn't sell, wedidn't eat.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (27:19):
Oh my gosh.
Kyle McDowell (27:21):
Right.
So you know, and I remember mymother.
I remember my mother's schedule.
You know she passed away adozen or more years ago, but I
remember every Sunday night theroutine she went through to get
ready for the week.
I remember when she got home,every single day I'd run to meet
her at the door and she wouldget out of that starched suit
and be more comfortable.
I remember her getting up earlyevery single day, at least
(27:44):
Monday through Friday, withenough time to sip coffee, get
the kids ready and get out thedoor.
But I never heard her complain.
So when I watched my parentsreally work hard I mean work as
hard as anybody I've ever seenmy mother had probably the best
work ethic of anyone I've everseen.
So with that experience andthen the way they raised me, so
(28:07):
my favorite example is I'm ashoe nerd, so every year a new
pair of Air Jordans would comeout.
I actually worked at afootlocker back in high school,
but usually before that,especially through junior high,
I couldn't afford $100 sneakersat the time.
So my parents were always likewe'll get you those Air Jordans,
but you're going to have towork for it.
(28:28):
Okay, what does that mean?
Well, I would find myself doingyard work for three, four weeks
in a row before those shoeswould come.
In other words, I began toassociate at a very early age
the connection between hard workand and material things Like if
you want this, you must, youmust put in the work If you want
to achieve that, or you want togo to this place or get these
shiny shoes, no one's going tohand it to you.
(28:50):
So watching them, but then alsothe way they taught me from an
early age to connect effort withoutcome, I think is is is
exactly why I am who I am, um on, at least on the work front for
sure.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (29:04):
Well, thank you for indulging me with that.
Kyle McDowell (29:07):
Yeah.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (29:07):
Yeah, I thought that was really sweet,
and we all come from somewhere.
It's it's not that you justwake up one day and it's it's
who you are.
You know there is, there iswork, and Choices.
Choices, absolutely Choices.
Hardships, that's right.
Are you going?
Kyle McDowell (29:25):
to let the hardships define you.
We've all had trauma.
We've all had really.
I've had some really uglythings in my life.
I really have, and sometimesthey have defined me for small
periods of time.
But I think, no, I think I knowthe challenge for each of us is
to make the choice to move onfrom it, get better from it,
learn from it, stay away from it, whatever the it is.
(29:46):
But that's a daily choice andwhat I found in the leadership
world is it's also a dailychoice.
It's almost a choice you haveto make in every interaction you
have every day, because it'shard to be.
A really good leader requiresmore effort, more work, more
calories burned, probably longerhours than a manager.
Yes, so if you make thatdecision, it's not a one time
(30:08):
decision.
I'm going to, I'm going to getpromoted into this role, make
more money.
That's my decision.
No, no, the decision comesevery single day, almost every
interaction.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:17):
And it's not the critic who counts.
Kyle McDowell (30:20):
Well played, well played, well played.
One of my favorites.
Yeah, yes, so I've got the manin the arena speech at the
entrance at the very beginningof the book and it just hits me
on so many levels, not just work, not just leadership Right.
Why do you like it so much?
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:42):
I love it.
It's in my book too.
Kyle McDowell (30:45):
Oh gosh, I feel terrible not knowing that.
Wow, I didn't know that.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:48):
That's okay.
No, I love it.
As soon as I saw I'm like, ohyes, yeah, it just like.
I even have goosebumps justthinking about it, because it
just it is so meaningful becauseas a leader, as a part as a
human being, we're getting upevery day and we are just, you
know, there's battles, you know,like you talked about, we all
(31:09):
have hardships and so,understanding that, you know you
do the best you can with whatyou know and what you have in
those moments.
Yep, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (31:19):
And when you do the wrong thing unknowingly but
you're aligned with your team onembracing challenges, they know
you've got their back and theyhave your back, those missteps
become so much more bearable andwe get to the bottom lot.
We get to better outcomes somuch faster as well.
But not acknowledging thosehardships, the baggage, the
(31:42):
trauma that each of us notacknowledging it is unrelatable.
And if you have a leader oryou're reporting to someone who
doesn't acknowledge some of thethings that you've experienced
and what make you you, how canyou trust that person?
I don't want to be led bysomeone that doesn't know who I
am.
They just look at me as anumber.
I don't want to be led by thatperson.
I certainly don't want to bequote unquote managed by that
(32:04):
person.
I don't trust them.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:06):
That's right.
Trust is essential.
Kyle McDowell (32:10):
It's everything.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:11):
All right, mr Kyle McDowell, it has been a
pleasure to have you onConversations for Leaders and
Teams.
I appreciate you, I appreciatethe work that you're doing and
keep doing great things, andwe'll see you soon.
Kyle McDowell (32:24):
Well, likewise, Dr Kelly.
Thank you for the opportunity.
You're doing really importantwork, but my to-do now is to
pick up your book.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:31):
So thank you for having me.
It's got to be updated.
Kyle McDowell (32:36):
It's all right, though.
It gives me something to chewon, so I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:41):
You're welcome .
All right.
Well, hey there, and welcome toConversations where today we
have Kyle McDowell, who is aformer Fortune 10 executive,
turned inspirational speaker,bestselling author and
leadership coach.
Kyle is on a quest to createcultures of excellence and
reignite leaders' passion andpurpose.
With nearly three decades ofexperience leading tens of
(00:24):
thousands of employees as someof America's biggest firms,
mcdowell's philosophy is rootedin his trademark principles the
10 Whees.
While today's workforce isplayed with uncertainty and
apathy, his strategy is simpleBegin with we Welcome, and how
are you today?
Kyle McDowell (00:43):
Hey, Dr Kelly man , I'm really great.
Thank you for having me.
Good to see you again.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (00:47):
Absolutely.
It's good to see you again too,and before we get into some of
those 10 wheeze, I'd like tomention that the cover of your
book has that you are a WallStreet Journal and USA
bestseller.
How does that happen?
Kyle McDowell (01:03):
I don't know, I mean I wish I had a better
answer.
So when I decided to write mybook, I remember vividly having
a conversation with my wife andI was.
I told her, if I sell athousand copies I'll be over the
moon.
And we have far eclipsed beyondwhat my wildest expectations
were.
I think we're just we'rehovering right around 30,000
(01:24):
copies at this point.
But the USA Today, wall StreetJournal bestseller badges those
came the first week of releasewhen there was a bit of a rush.
And you know I wrestle, dr Kelly, I wrestle with sometimes
sharing some sales numbersbecause it sounds arrogant or
like I'm self-promoting and I'mreally not.
What it's told me is thatthere's a need for these
(01:46):
principles, there is a need fora different way of leading,
there's a need for feeling lessapathetic about the work
environment in which you operate.
So that's what fuels me now isknowing that these principles
are landing, and they're landingin a way that is helping people
kind of transform theirposition as a boss into a
genuine leader.
People kind of transform theirposition as a boss into a
(02:08):
genuine leader, one that caresmore about those around them
than their own accolades.
And then, of course, when we dothat, naturally we benefit as
well.
So it just fuels me now thesales numbers.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (02:18):
Yeah, well, and I think you're absolutely
right.
I mean, those numbers show thatthere is a need and it is
principle-based leadership,right?
So which could look a littlebit different.
So, when you think about that,what does that mean to you,
principle-based leadership,compared to all the other
leaderships that are out there?
Kyle McDowell (02:37):
Yeah, I love that you asked that question,
because I do think there is abit of a difference between
someone who's led at scale asyou mentioned in the bio tens of
thousands of employees atreally massive organizations to
authors or frameworks that havenot done it.
I do think experience matters,and when we talk about
(02:58):
principle-based leadership,let's remember a principle, by
definition, is our fundamentalsystem of truths or our system
of beliefs.
That's, that's the definitionof a principle.
So what I?
What I learned and I stumbledon it because I led for 20 plus
years with no leadershipprinciples.
I just the old command andcontrol kind of banged my fist
on the desk style, you know,results at all costs was
(03:21):
essentially how I operated untilI operated, until I stumbled
upon principle-based leadership,and what I learned is when you
establish leadership principles,like the things that are
non-negotiable, what is myfoundation of beliefs as it
relates to being a leader?
When you align a group ofpeople, a team, around a series
(03:42):
of principles, they becomealmost like a code of conduct,
and they become a culturalcurrency.
What matters most though orit's all dead on arrival, has no
chance of sustaining is if theleader him or herself don't live
them.
They don't live the principles.
And that's where I think a lotof us, including me, have gotten
(04:04):
in trouble.
It and say, hey, here's who weare, here's how we're going to
operate, I want us to be knownfor these things.
And then I'm behaving in acontrary fashion.
You know, 30 minutes later in adifferent meeting.
It's hard for people to trustand follow that.
So when I established theseprinciples, I shared them with
my team at the time, the top 40or 50 leaders of about a 10,000,
(04:28):
no 15,000 person organization,and I kind of stepped back and I
didn't force them on anyone.
I just wanted them to know.
These are the rules that youcan expect from me, the behavior
you can and the expectationsyou should have of me, and I'm
going to hold you just asaccountable.
But I led first by saying Ineed to be held accountable to
these.
So now we have these principlesthat if you're on this team you
have subscribed to them.
You can't be on this teamwithout saying, yes, I support
(04:50):
the 10 wheeze, by the way,they're so simple, they're not
super controversial.
So if anybody were to say Idon't subscribe to any one of
those, you probably don't wantthem on your team anyway.
But I think, to kind of closeout, the answer here is most
organizations do, I think, apretty fine job of onboarding
employees to say here's how youdo your job, here are the
policies and procedures, thestandard operating procedures,
(05:11):
here is how you do the functionrelated to the role that you've
been assigned.
But where most organizationsfall short is establishing these
expectations for how we treatone another, our expectations
for making good on ourcommitments behind the curtain.
For one another.
How we treat one anothermatters a whole lot and our
(05:33):
clients can feel that.
So if we're high functioningbehind the curtains, take care
of each other, lift each otherup, challenge each other to be
the best we can be, ourcustomers naturally feel that
it's when we try to flip aswitch and say we're one thing
behind the curtains that we'renot externally.
Ultimately.
Ultimately, those twoidentities will collide and the
customer sees it.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (05:48):
Absolutely.
They see it.
Everybody around sees thatRight.
So let's hop into some of those.
Why don't you unpack some ofyour 10 wheeze there?
What comes to mind first andforemost?
Kyle McDowell (05:59):
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to, but I must give this
caveat I always I must twofold.
First is, as I share a few ofthese, or all of these, your
audience is probably going tosay to themselves well, this is
so simple, or I already do thesethings, and indeed they are
simple, they're incrediblysimple.
Simple does not mean easy,that's right.
(06:19):
Like we know how to lose abunch of weight, we know how to
put on muscle, we know on muscle, we know how to do all these
things.
They're simple but they're noteasy.
They take commitment anddiscipline and so on.
So simple is not easy.
And then the other is as Ishare them, I think it's really
important.
This has been an unintendedbyproduct.
That's been so fulfilling andheartwarming to me is the impact
(06:43):
the principles are having onreaders' personal lives, me
included, actually, and I neverintended these principles to
transcend the workplace, but itturns out shocker that if you're
a good person and you take careof others behind the scenes,
take care of those kind of inyour charge in a work setting,
you could probably do the samein your personal life.
(07:04):
But we have to commit to notbeing two different people and I
think that's where a lot of usfall short is behave a certain
way inside the workplace than wedo outside.
And then there's this hypocrisy, at least in my brain, that
creeps in and says dude, you'renot being authentic, you can't
be trusted on either side.
So as I walk through them,remember these are for life.
They can be just as importantand impactful in our personal
(07:24):
lives, and probably none moreimportant than the very first we
, which is non-negotiable likethe rest of them, but it sets
the foundation.
We do the right thing always,and I never leave out that one
word, second sentence always,because in business and
certainly most aspects of ourlives, there's a lot of gray and
making the right decision ordoing the right thing is tough
(07:46):
and identifying what the rightthing is tough, and I walked the
reader through kind of somemodels to get there.
But if we can't align on that,then everything else is a house
of cards and it's going totumble.
So we're going to do the rightthing, regardless of who's
watching, who's not watching,regardless of who benefits or
doesn't benefit.
We're going to do the rightthing.
And then they kind of expandand grow upon one another and
(08:07):
I'll just run through themwithout a huge summary of each,
but they kind of stand on theirown once we realize where they
sit in all 10.
So we go from.
We do the right thing always,and for me, the number one,
primary way that I candemonstrate, as a leader, that
I'm committed to doing the rightthing is to lead by example.
The question is not.
Should I lead by example?
You already are.
You're leading by an example.
(08:28):
The question is do you wantthat example to be replicated?
Is it something you'd be proudof?
You want to see other peoplebehave in a similar way.
So you've got to set thatexample for others to say this
is the standard, this is how webehave.
And to demonstrate my commitmentto leading by example comes
with number three.
We say what we're going to doand then we do it.
It's that simple.
When we make a commitment to acustomer or someone outside of
(08:50):
the work, outside of our workteam, you know the, the
expectation and understanding iswe'll deliver on that.
Well, it should be no differentfor us behind the curtains.
Kelly, if I promise to get youan email by five o'clock, you're
going to have it, and if not,you're going to have it, and if
not, you're going to know wellin advance.
I've been I think we all havebeen so frustrated throughout
our careers where, you know, adifferent functional department
(09:13):
was responsible for giving mesomething that I needed to take
somewhere else, maybe to aclient or to the board or
someone more senior in theorganization.
When that domino doesn't fall,the rest don't fall, and then
we're all.
We all have egg in our face atthat point, so we've got to make
good on our commitments.
To do that leads us to wenumber four it's we take action.
Taking action and making amistake is completely fine, but
being idle and doing nothing isunacceptable.
(09:34):
So when you see things insidethe team, inside your
organization, that needattention, we don't just turn a
cheek to them.
We surface them.
We may not address them rightaway, but they're certainly
going to be a part of aninventory of things that we want
to get better at or approach.
The TSA says if you seesomething, say something In a
culture of excellence.
If you see something, we dosomething.
We don't just let it sit idle.
If you want people to takeaction, though and you know this
(09:58):
better than anybody is we'vegot to be prepared for mistakes,
and we need members of the teamto recognize mistakes truly are
an opportunity to get better.
They really are right, it's okay.
It's okay to make mistakes.
That's why this one's soimportant.
If you don't own the mistakesand that's we number five we own
our mistakes.
If we don't own our mistakes,we can't learn from them, we
can't get better, we can'tcreate new policies and
(10:20):
procedures to ensure it doesn'thappen again.
So we got to be open about ourmistakes.
I like to be tough on problems,not tough on the people that
discovered or created theproblem.
Even when we own our mistakes,we must follow that with we
number six, which is we pickeach other up.
I think it's every one of ourhuman obligations.
When someone's down strugglingmaybe they've got a sick kid or
(10:41):
an ailing parent or whatever'sgoing we all bring baggage to
work, right.
So when we bring that baggageto work, it's important for each
of us to remember that we allhave that baggage, Whatever it
is for each of us is different,but we're going to pick each
other up.
And I think it goes a stepfurther for those in a position
of authority or leadership role.
We've got to lift others to newheights.
(11:01):
So, members of the team thatwant to do more, even outside
your team, it's an obligation,as the leader of that team to
help position them and enablethem to be better than they were
yesterday, and even if thatmeans leaving your team, that's
the right thing to do.
We're biologically wired tohelp one another, but over time
the workplace has said no, no,it's more of a dog eat dog.
We're not going to help eachother, we're just going to be
(11:23):
the best we can individually andlet our accolades take care of
the rest.
But I don't see it that way.
I think we have to lift eachother up when they're down, and
then we also have to lift themup when it's time and they want
to go do something different onyour team or out of your team.
And then the last handful, lastfour, become a little more
difficult and direct.
(11:45):
And it starts with we numberseven it's we measure ourselves
by outcomes, not activity.
I don't care how many meetingsyou were in, I don't care if you
were double booked or triplebooked.
I like to set an expectationand get out of the way.
It's like Dr Kelly.
Here are the lists of thingsthat are that you're responsible
for in the role that you hold.
Do you understand all of them?
Yes, what do you need from me?
What barriers can I remove?
(12:07):
How do I enable you to be yourabsolute best?
What can I do as your leader?
And then after that, I'm onlygoing to judge you by the
outcomes.
If it takes you four or 40hours, it's irrelevant to me,
because we've established whatthe expectation is when you're
going to deliver, the quality ofthat expectation, of that
delivery.
So I like to say I'm reallyhappy that my Uber driver stops
(12:29):
to get gas before they pick meup, but I'm not paying for that.
I'm paying to get from A to B.
That's how the real worldoperates.
We pay for outcomes.
Matter of fact, if our clientsknew how much time we spend kind
of shuffling from meeting tomeeting, with really no
discernible outcomes, and howmuch, how many calories we burn
on things that don't add valueto what they've bought or what
they're going to buy, or theservice that they purchased from
(12:51):
us, They'd be they'd beprobably frustrated.
You know why are you spendingso much time on things that
don't add value to the productthat I care about, that I'm
buying?
My favorite of all theprinciples is we number eight.
We challenge each other.
I think the old model, theirweight.
We're going to do it Now.
(13:25):
It's got to be diplomatic andall challenges must be grounded
in either data or experience.
Otherwise it's your opinion andthere's probably no real way to
get to the bottom or what's theoptimal outcomes if we're just
casting opinions.
So we've got to use facts anddata.
If we're going to live withnumber eight, we must subscribe
to we number nine, and that's.
We embrace challenge, Whetherthose challenges come from
(13:46):
external forces, the boss's boss, management, whoever it is.
But we're going to embracechallenge, we're going to look
them in the eye and we're goingto be galvanized by them.
We're going to be realistic andsay this is really tough or
this might require some extrahours, it might require more
manpower, but we're not going toshy away from it.
We're going to galvanize andlock arms and we're going to
(14:08):
address it because we knowtogether we can overcome just
about anything, Individually notso much.
So we're going to embracechallenges.
It's incredibly important.
They're all learningopportunities and they fuel our
growth.
And then the last one is prettysimple, but it's purposeful.
I was purposeful to leave it asnumber 10 because I think any
earlier in the list it's goingto be a recipe for
disappointment.
We number 10 is we obsess overdetails.
(14:30):
Details are what makes orseparates good from great and
great from excellent andexcellent from world-class.
Those details, they reallymatter, and it's typically in
most spaces, most industries,the smallest of details is what
determines the path the consumertakes.
Do you want your productmanuals littered with typos and
(14:52):
bad grammar or do you want anApple experience where the
sticker telling you whichdirection to pull, that sticker
to open this box that is sosnugly put together?
You know they put engineers inrooms for months on end,
literally months on end, just todesign boxes, Because that
unboxing experience says, and itcommunicates the level of
detail and concern that we havefor the product you just
(15:14):
purchased and it instills trust.
So we're going to obsess overdetails, not perfection, but
we're going to obsess over thelittle things that others might
not.
That's going to make usexcellent and create our kind of
, create the distance between usand those with whom we compete.
That's the 10 weeks.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (15:29):
And I love every single one of them.
And you said at the beginninghow you know you're going to
find that they are simple, andthey are simple, like, when I
read those, it's like these areso simple.
But then I see, bringing iteven, you know cause my wheels
started turning about.
Okay, how would I use this, youknow, for a team, and it would
even be being able to do anexercise with them, you know,
(15:51):
pointing them and saying whereare we really strong, like which
we are, we are we really strongand where might we need to
spend some time and reallyunpack that?
Kyle McDowell (16:03):
And that's exactly so.
So we have a workbook that goeswith the book.
Yeah, really, it's really cool.
So it has this reflectionperiods and experience periods
and, you know, a lot ofinteraction, and so we we sell
that as kind of a standalone.
But also many times I've hadclients say hey, kyle, can you
come lead us and walk us throughthis?
And I do exactly what you justsaid.
(16:24):
Let's get them out on the table.
Everybody understand and becomeintimate with them and let's be
really open and vulnerableabout what we have an
opportunity to be better at,versus hey, we're pretty good at
this, let's keep this going.
And that dialogue, it creates anomenclature almost.
It creates a differentvernacular inside of a team.
It's like hey, dr Kelly, you'vebeen struggling with X, y or Z
(16:48):
and we challenge each other,right.
So I'm here, I'm gonna pick youup, but I need to understand
you know what's, what's behindthis challenge.
It creates, it allows kind ofopening sentences or premises to
be.
It makes it easier to haveawkward conversations.
When we're all subscribed, weall know what we have to get
better at, those that we're notso proficient at.
And it gives us these guiderails, which I think is so
(17:09):
lacking in so many organizations.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (17:12):
It's interesting that you mentioned
that about.
You know those, maybe those,some of those conversations that
could be difficult, because youI think it's in number six
where you talk about yourconversation with Robert and you
were a young director at thetime and so there was this
generational difference.
Right, I'd love to hear maybeyou know that is so practical,
(17:35):
you know, but I'd love maybe foryou to say a little bit more
about that and how you know weare with all the generations
that are in the workplace nowhow really to help a leader,
regardless of where you are, ifyou're a young director, like
you were, and you were talkingto somebody who wasn't so young,
why don't you say a little bitabout that?
Kyle McDowell (17:56):
Man, you've done your homework and I appreciate
that.
The story you're mentioninghappened when I was in the book
I was probably mid-20s at best.
I led a group of I don't knoweight, 10 people I don't
remember the exact number but amember on the team, a guy by the
name of Robert at the time, wasprobably late 60s Vietnam War
(18:19):
veteran.
We could not have been moredifferent.
Someone to whom I couldn'trelate but of course had an
enormous amount of respect forhim, and he wore the veteran
experience on his body.
He walked with a shuffle, hewas a little slower probably
than he was earlier in his life,like he had some scars and
(18:42):
typically was a pretty goodperformer just kind of a quiet
guy, stayed in his own lane,just banged out reports,
whatever it was that we askedhim to do Great guy actually.
But I noticed that hisperformance started to slide and
I knew I needed to have areally tough conversation.
And when you're 25 and you needto sit down with a guy in his
late 60s to tell him he's notcutting it, I think there are
two paths.
I think there are two paths.
(19:05):
The path that I took.
The first I took more oftenthan not, I should say is you
know, hey, your results are down, get them up.
Or else.
Or you just ask hey, what'sgoing on?
Man, you know, I've noticed youwere at, you've been performing
here and lately it's kind ofslid to here.
So that experience with Robert.
I pulled him into a smalllittle conference room he didn't
have an office at the time andjust kind of asked a lot of
(19:28):
questions before I pounced onthe poor performance.
Turned out he was dealing witha very, very sick spouse.
His wife was ailing.
So of course his performancewould suffer, of course his
engagement would suffer.
But the highlight of the wholestory and I'm really grateful
you gave me the chance to shareit is after, kind of.
I mean, I had to be vulnerable,I couldn't be the boss.
I had to just ask another humanbeing what was going on, why he
(19:50):
was struggling, and at the endof the whole he opened up more
than I expected.
At the end of the conversationwe stood up, he reached across
the table and shook my hand andhe said I respect you.
And I said that's great, robert.
Okay, cool, he goes.
You know why I respect you?
I said no, he said because youlooked me in the eye when you
shook my hand and it sounds kindof I don't know, trite or even
(20:17):
trivial at this point, some 20years later.
I'll never forget it, like Iremember it, like it was
yesterday.
But also there was a connectionbetween two humans that
transcended a work relationship,where someone wasn't cutting it
and someone had the authorityquote unquote to do something
about it.
There's two humans connectingon something much more important
, much bigger.
His results turned aroundalmost immediately because now
the team knew he was strugglingand knew he needed a bit of a
pick me up.
(20:37):
I didn't have the 10 weeks tolean on back in those days, but
it was a really beautifulexperience and I'm glad you
called it out.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (20:46):
Well, I and I and I love that because it is
that, that human component thatso many leaders I think that
it's turning.
The tides are turning a littlebit.
You know, like, like you saidbefore, it's not.
You know it used to be thecommand and in charge and
beating your hand on the on thedesk, but now it's more.
You know it used to be thecommand and in charge and
beating your hand on the desk,but now it's more.
(21:07):
You know, human to human.
And what is that?
And how can we bring our peoplein, you know, to conversations
and have them be authentic withus, and have us be authentic
with them and really get to theroot of what's going on.
That's the goal.
Kyle McDowell (21:21):
That is the goal to the root of what's going on.
That's the goal.
That is the goal and you hit it.
You hit the nail on the headand I'm sure your audience and
anyone that's kind of anyonewith a job knows that the
workforce has changed the um,the way to be an effective
leader has changed the workforceyou know, for for decades, if
not centuries, organizationswere able to say this is how it
(21:44):
is, this is who we are, like itor not, and you can work here or
not.
Over the last decade or so, thathas radically shifted.
With the proliferation of workat home, with the gig economy,
employees have way more optionsthan they ever have before and
they are flexing those optionsby the massive turnover we see
(22:07):
in in a lot of organizations.
In other words, I don't I don'tnecessarily have to put up with
you, boss, because I can have avery similar role, making very
similar money in a for anorganization across the country.
And, by the way, I can do it inmy pajamas all day, in front of
a desk or at home.
So it is a differentenvironment and to be an
(22:29):
effective leader, we all mustditch this old leadership
playbook and actually connectwith those that we lead and when
we connect, there's trust andthere's so many outcomes that
can be found well over and abovejust this boss-subordinate
relationship that we all kind ofgrew up with.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (22:46):
Now creating that space is imperative to
having those conversations.
That story really touched me.
And then the other piece whereI think is changing more is you
talk about understanding how thesausage is made, which I don't
think that people reallyunderstand the importance of
(23:07):
that.
Kyle McDowell (23:08):
And so that, yeah , so when I, when I found myself
in these rooms with these, youknow, influential, important
leaders, and they would ask me aquestion about hey, how's your
team going or how's this workingout, they would ask questions
that made it obvious to me theyhad no idea what I did, they had
no idea of the struggles thatmy team was dealing with, the
struggles that I was dealingwith, but they were being good
(23:28):
citizens of the company and were, you know, being good humans
asking questions.
And when I juxtapose that withthose that asked you know, you
know, senior folks or reallyanyone that would ask a question
, but you knew they knew enoughto ask a good question, they
understood, you know outcome,they understood the conflict
that comes with some functionalareas or departments, and I
(23:50):
always left more motivated,inspired, that this guy actually
knew what I was doing, this guyor this gal, this really senior
person in the organization,they asked a question that told
me they've done their homework,they've looked over our, looked
over our numbers, or theythey're, they have, they know
how we do what we do, how we getthe sausage out.
So I just found it and somewill disagree with this notion,
(24:14):
dr Kelly, is that, um, you know,I don't need to get in their
sandbox.
I just, you know, I just needto know enough to lead them and
answer questions.
And I think that there may betrue.
That may be true in someenvironments, but when the when
a team member senses, oroutright knows, that I am
connected enough with what theydo to ask good questions, and
that doesn't happen right out ofthe gate, right?
(24:34):
You?
Sometimes, if you're new to therole, you have to learn, but
learning what it is that yourteam does and the struggles that
they encounter, the hurdlesthat they deal with, the
roadblocks, the noise that's inthe way of them being excellent,
how can you ever get that outof the system and out of their
way, enabling them to be theirbest, if you don't know what
they are?
You must know the challengesthat they face.
(24:56):
You must know the struggles andthe roadblocks and hurdles.
I think we have two jobs.
As leaders of people, we havereally two fundamental jobs.
The first is to identify withthe team, identify and remove as
much noise, as many of thethings that stand in the way of
them being excellent as possible.
(25:16):
It could be better training, itcould be better technology, it
could be a different schedule,it could be a work at home type
thing, giving them moreflexibility.
You know, depending on the role.
That's job one.
Job two is to inspire andmotivate to deliver results in
spite of the things you couldn'tget out of the way, cause
you're never going to get up.
It's it's.
It's called work.
It's not going to be a walk inthe park every single day.
(25:39):
There are going to be thingsthat we struggle to, to, to
address and get out of thesystem.
So, in spite of those that'swhen the we embrace challenge
part comes in we're going tolock arms and say, in spite of
these things that I couldn't getout of the way, we're going to
be excellent.
And if not, we're going to tryreally hard to be excellent and
learn from whatever shortcomingmight come.
(25:59):
But you can't, you'll never getto that point unless you
understand what it is the teamdoes.
What do your people do?
You're not on some pedestalthat says I don't need to know
those details.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (26:08):
You do need to know those details you do need
to know, absolutely.
Kyle McDowell (26:11):
I love that question.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (26:14):
Well thanks.
Oh well, this has been anamazing conversation.
I know that we could probablygo on and on, you know, for
hours, because you have just somuch wisdom for what you bring.
I would like to just ask At thebeginning of your book, there's
(26:35):
two things that I noticed, andthe first one was about how
sweet it was that you wereinspired by your parents.
And so this is you now, butmaybe if you can just touch on
what was that Like, how did theyinspire you?
Your work ethic?
Kyle McDowell (26:55):
So my parents were both so we were.
I grew up middle-class at best,you know we weren't poor, but
we weren't by any means wealthyby any stretch of the
imagination, and both of myparents were lifelong career
driven people.
My dad was in sales, my mombegan her career in sales, and
(27:16):
both 100% commission-based roles.
So if they didn't sell, wedidn't eat.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (27:19):
Oh my gosh.
Kyle McDowell (27:21):
Right.
So you know, and I remember mymother.
I remember my mother's schedule.
You know she passed away adozen or more years ago, but I
remember every Sunday night theroutine she went through to get
ready for the week.
I remember when she got home,every single day I'd run to meet
her at the door and she wouldget out of that starched suit
and be more comfortable.
I remember her getting up earlyevery single day, at least
(27:44):
Monday through Friday, withenough time to sip coffee, get
the kids ready and get out thedoor.
But I never heard her complain.
So when I watched my parentsreally work hard I mean work as
hard as anybody I've ever seenmy mother had probably the best
work ethic of anyone I've everseen.
So with that experience andthen the way they raised me, so
(28:07):
my favorite example is I'm ashoe nerd, so every year a new
pair of Air Jordans would comeout.
I actually worked at afootlocker back in high school,
but usually before that,especially through junior high,
I couldn't afford $100 sneakersat the time.
So my parents were always likewe'll get you those Air Jordans,
but you're going to have towork for it.
(28:28):
Okay, what does that mean?
Well, I would find myself doingyard work for three, four weeks
in a row before those shoeswould come.
In other words, I began toassociate at a very early age
the connection between hard workand and material things Like if
you want this, you must, youmust put in the work If you want
to achieve that, or you want togo to this place or get these
shiny shoes, no one's going tohand it to you.
(28:50):
So watching them, but then alsothe way they taught me from an
early age to connect effort withoutcome, I think is is is
exactly why I am who I am, um on, at least on the work front for
sure.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (29:04):
Well, thank you for indulging me with that.
Kyle McDowell (29:07):
Yeah.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (29:07):
Yeah, I thought that was really sweet,
and we all come from somewhere.
It's it's not that you justwake up one day and it's it's
who you are.
You know there is, there iswork, and Choices.
Choices, absolutely Choices.
Hardships, that's right.
Are you going?
Kyle McDowell (29:25):
to let the hardships define you.
We've all had trauma.
We've all had really.
I've had some really uglythings in my life.
I really have, and sometimesthey have defined me for small
periods of time.
But I think, no, I think I knowthe challenge for each of us is
to make the choice to move onfrom it, get better from it,
learn from it, stay away from it, whatever the it is.
(29:46):
But that's a daily choice andwhat I found in the leadership
world is it's also a dailychoice.
It's almost a choice you haveto make in every interaction you
have every day, because it'shard to be.
A really good leader requiresmore effort, more work, more
calories burned, probably longerhours than a manager.
Yes, so if you make thatdecision, it's not a one time
(30:08):
decision.
I'm going to, I'm going to getpromoted into this role, make
more money.
That's my decision.
No, no, the decision comesevery single day, almost every
interaction.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:17):
And it's not the critic who counts.
Kyle McDowell (30:20):
Well played, well played, well played.
One of my favorites.
Yeah, yes, so I've got the manin the arena speech at the
entrance at the very beginningof the book and it just hits me
on so many levels, not just work, not just leadership Right.
Why do you like it so much?
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:42):
I love it.
It's in my book too.
Kyle McDowell (30:45):
Oh gosh, I feel terrible not knowing that.
Wow, I didn't know that.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (30:48):
That's okay.
No, I love it.
As soon as I saw I'm like, ohyes, yeah, it just like.
I even have goosebumps justthinking about it, because it
just it is so meaningful becauseas a leader, as a part as a
human being, we're getting upevery day and we are just, you
know, there's battles, you know,like you talked about, we all
(31:09):
have hardships and so,understanding that, you know you
do the best you can with whatyou know and what you have in
those moments.
Yep, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (31:19):
And when you do the wrong thing unknowingly but
you're aligned with your team onembracing challenges, they know
you've got their back and theyhave your back, those missteps
become so much more bearable andwe get to the bottom lot.
We get to better outcomes somuch faster as well.
But not acknowledging thosehardships, the baggage, the
(31:42):
trauma that each of us notacknowledging it is unrelatable.
And if you have a leader oryou're reporting to someone who
doesn't acknowledge some of thethings that you've experienced
and what make you you, how canyou trust that person?
I don't want to be led bysomeone that doesn't know who I
am.
They just look at me as anumber.
I don't want to be led by thatperson.
I certainly don't want to bequote unquote managed by that
(32:04):
person.
I don't trust them.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:06):
That's right.
Trust is essential.
Kyle McDowell (32:10):
It's everything.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:11):
All right, mr Kyle McDowell, it has been a
pleasure to have you onConversations for Leaders and
Teams.
I appreciate you, I appreciatethe work that you're doing and
keep doing great things, andwe'll see you soon.
Kyle McDowell (32:24):
Well, likewise, Dr Kelly.
Thank you for the opportunity.
You're doing really importantwork, but my to-do now is to
pick up your book.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:31):
So thank you for having me.
It's got to be updated.
Kyle McDowell (32:36):
It's all right, though.
It gives me something to chewon, so I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Dr. Kelly Whelan (32:41):
You're welcome .
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