March 5, 2025 • 41 mins
Sam Isaacson challenges us to rethink leadership through three powerful lenses—as ancestors, humans, and change makers. This framework reveals how truly effective leadership transcends quarterly targets and focuses instead on lasting impact, full humanity, and meaningful transformation.
• Leaders should be change makers who catalyze transformation, not just maintain status quo
• Thinking of yourself as a "leader as ancestor" means considering what legacy you'll leave for future generations
• Embracing "leader as human" means recognizing our bodies, emotions, and values as assets, not liabilities
• Four universal leadership traits—wisdom, integrity, bravery, and kindness—have been valued across all cultures and time periods
• Systemic kindness creates ripple effects throughout organizations when leaders prioritize human impact
• Technology evolution shapes leadership styles, from the industrial revolution to today's AI revolution
• Tomorrow's leaders must understand technology while maintaining human-centered approaches
• Governance of creativity will become an essential leadership skill as AI capabilities expand
Learn more about Sam on LinkedIn.
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And welcome to Conversations for Leaders and
Teams.
Today we are talking with SamIsaacson, who is a coaching
consultant and thought leaderwith particular expertise in the
strategic use of coaching andorganizations, and coaching with
technology.
He is the founder of the CoachTech Collective, a global
(00:20):
community of professionalcoaches curious about technology
, and co-founder of AI CoachChat, a technology platform
making non-directiveconversations accessible to
those who can't afford a humancoach.
He was chair of the UKgovernment group that developed
the coaching professionalapprenticeship, england's
(00:41):
biggest coaching qualification.
He is also an author with booksincluding Next Generation
Leadership, how to Thrive as aCoach in a Digital World, and
the Digital and AI CoachesHandbook.
Welcome to the show, sam.
How are you today and where areyou coming to us from?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, Hi Kelly, I'm pretty good today.
Actually, I'm dialing in fromLondon and London.
If anyone knows anything aboutLondon, it's that we have a lot
of cloud here and the overcastskies.
The last couple of days seem tohave cleared and so beautiful
blue skies.
It's a sunny day.
(01:21):
It's cold, but it's lovely andsunny.
So, yeah, looking forward togetting out.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Sun is good.
Sun is good.
I'm in sunny Florida, but todayit's not too sunny.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Okay, we've got it all.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I have the cloud cover, you have the sun, yeah
lovely.
Oh well, I appreciate you beinghere.
I do have a couple of yourbooks.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh yeah, I appreciate you being here.
I do have a couple of yourbooks.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh yeah, I recognize those, a couple of those, and
we're going to be talking alittle bit about kind of both of
them and just kind of see wherethe conversation goes.
But I'm going to start right inwith some questions and we'll
go from there.
So I heard you describe leadersas ancestors, humans and change
makers.
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yes, well, they kind of don't really fit together.
And that's kind of the point,that these are three lenses
through which to look atleadership, and I think it's
actually important to recognizethat each sits as its own sort
of autonomous, abstract conceptwhich leadership can sit within,
and that when we combine thethree of them together, that's
(02:32):
where, that's where we havetruly effective leaders that do
things in the right sort of way.
So I'll briefly explain each ofthem and hopefully we'll see
that where the venn diagram sits.
So, um, I'll start with changemaker, because I think that's
probably the simplest of thethree, which is'll see that
where the Venn diagram sits.
So I'll start with change maker, because I think that's
probably the simplest of thethree, which is to say that if
you are a leader, there ought tobe some sense of you acting as
(02:53):
a catalyst for change.
And it's simple enough,actually, when we think about
the role of leadership in a lotof organizations, that the role
of leader is something that is.
Role of leader is somethingthat is sort of given to people
as they just progress through acareer ladder until you take on
a role in which you're notexpected to change things,
(03:13):
you're expected to maintainthings, and for me, that isn't
leadership, that's some sort ofcurator role.
But we're talking leadershiphere.
We're meant to be introducingchange and leading people
through a response to change,and if there's anything that is
true about the world we'reliving in at the moment is that
we're surrounded by change, andso we need to be those who are
(03:35):
provoking change ourselves, inourselves and in our people.
That's an important aspect ofleadership, so leaders should be
change makers.
I think the leader as ancestorpiece.
That's really where the title ofmy book, next Generation
Leadership, came from this ideathat actually, when we think
about ourselves as leaders,there's a lot of characteristics
(03:57):
that we're presented with asthese good leadership
characteristics.
And, in truth, when we lookback on ourselves in the future
and we think, what are theleadership traits that I've
demonstrated, it's not going tobe so important that we acted
decisively, but it is going tobe important that we left a
legacy that we're really proudof and are really able to say,
(04:18):
yeah, I did the right thingduring that time when things
were really tough, I made theright decisions.
You know, I did things in a waythat I'm really proud of.
And so, thinking about the roleof leader in terms of the
impacts that it has at asystemic level, just in the
teams that we're working with,and then the external
stakeholders that areinteracting with, those, which
(04:39):
includes the non-work world, youknow, the families and
neighborhoods, the natural world, and particularly thinking
about, what does this mean formy children, my grandchildren?
Are they going to look back atthe role I've played as a leader
and think I'm so happy thatthis person was a leader at that
time?
Or are they going to have someof the difficult conversations
(05:00):
that we're having to have at themoment?
Thinking about is the way thatwe acted as a race, you know, 50
, 100, 1000 years ago, you know,is it appropriate that we acted
in that way?
Then?
You know, do we want to kind ofmake excuses for our ancestors?
I don't want to feel like mydescendants need to make excuses
(05:21):
for me, and so that's animportant aspect there.
And then the third of thosethree lenses, which is, you know
, leader as human.
This really is, then, the waythat those two concepts are then
applied in reality, which isthat we are all humans and we
are often treated in the workcontext as if we are effectively
(05:46):
brains that happen to be housedin, you know, in flesh robots.
That's kind of the way that weare treated.
You know a piece in a machineand actually we have got human
bodies and our bodies give usinformation and we can lead
using the information our bodygives us.
We have got emotions and ouremotions are real and valid and
(06:07):
they give us important data todraw from.
It doesn't mean out of anger,but it means you know, recognize
I am feeling frightened at themoment.
I don't need to ignore it, Ijust need to recognize this is
something that is real for me.
Maybe others are also feelingthat.
You know, let's bring that intothe conversation and let's
(06:29):
recognize things like I've gotpersonal values and you know,
with my upbringing I am a wholehuman.
I am not just CFO or head of IT, service delivery or something,
as if it's you know thissomebody writing a textbook and
we've sort of created this roleinside it where we haven't got
the human there.
So hopefully that's enough.
(06:51):
I'll let you fill in some ofthe gaps there.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, thank you for that.
And, as you were, as you weretalking, you were talking about
legacy.
I'm wondering if, in yourresearch, if that you know how I
want to lead my legacy, do youbelieve that it's different
based on the generations?
Have you thought about that?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Could you explain what you mean by the question?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, I'm thinking about what's important for me in
this day and age in leaving alegacy.
Do you believe that it's thesame over time or that it
changes based on what we'reexperiencing within our
generation and what we want toleave?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Well, that is an extraordinarily difficult topic
to wrestle with.
In some ways, I think theanswer is actually much simpler
than we want to make it.
So.
There are certain humancharacteristics that have always
been valued universally, acrosscultures, across times.
I summarise these as basicallythese four characteristics, or
(07:58):
four leadership traits, if youlike, of wisdom, integrity,
bravery and kindness.
You like of wisdom, integrity,bravery and kindness, where
there is no society at any pointin history that has said we
want people to not haveintegrity, or we want people to
be cowards or we want people tobe unkind.
You know, these are they.
They they're leadership traitsthat we have always valued and
(08:21):
it's probably a little bit toosimple to just get caught up in
some sort of societal pressurethat we end up kind of defining
it based on trying to think ofwhat is a good example that
isn't going to get anybody intotrouble.
There probably isn't.
One is there.
You know that we can end upsaying, well, at this moment
this thing is true or appears tobe true and therefore I need to
(08:45):
sort of stand behind thisparticular narrative.
I don't think that it's thatimportant.
The narrative itself isn't soimportant, but just exhibiting
integrity, exhibiting bravery,exhibiting kindness and wisdom,
and wisdom really is admittingthat you don't know and it's
okay wisdom and wisdom really isadmitting that you don't know,
(09:05):
and it's okay.
Yeah, it's a good leadershiptrait.
When we look back at the greatphilosophers that have shaped
Western thinking, when you lookat what they were writing, they
didn't seem to write hey, I amthe cleverest person around it's
.
I've looked as far as I canpossibly get and I've discovered
that I know much less than Ithought I did.
That's something that's good,that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Now I love that answer because you know I never
thought about it until you weretalking and then I was trying to
focus on you but that poppedinto my mind and then around the
emotions, that is something Ijust had a conversation
yesterday with a leader, likeit's okay, and too many times
(09:47):
you know we're thinking aboutthat.
You know authoritativeleadership style that used to be
and that you were not able tobring emotions into the
workplace.
You weren't able to bring yourfull self and we want people now
to be their full selves and tobring those emotions.
(10:08):
And, like you said, it's notlike we're going to be having
fistfights or anything withinthe office, but we definitely
want people to exhibit theiremotions and, like you said,
that leads into what a person isfeeling and experiencing in
(10:28):
those moments.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And I think it's important also to acknowledge
that there are these littlefashionable throwaway statements
that get thrown out as if it's,uh, a universal truth to say I
mean, you haven't said it inthere, but there, a way that it
(10:56):
would be phrased by certainpeople is this idea of like,
bring your whole self to work,and in certain circumstances,
that would be utterly ridiculous.
It's totally inappropriate.
You shouldn't be bringing yourwhole self to work, but you
should be aware of your wholeself in order to bring an
appropriate, right version ofyourself into the workplace.
Um, and that's, I think it'ssomething that it's easy to to
(11:22):
your question around.
You know, how do you leave alegacy?
Within the current context, itcan feel like there are two.
There are only two routes totake.
If you're going through adivorce and it's really tough
and you're high in emotions allthe time, you should either
(11:42):
fully present yourself in yourstressed-out state and everyone
should just accept you exactlyas you are and never correct it,
or you should compartmentaliseand act as if this is a separate
world that is not at allrelevant to the way that you're
turning up to work, whenactually the truth is.
In some ways, both are true andneither are true.
It is a truth and also thereare appropriate ways to act and
(12:07):
it's not sensible to drag otherpeople into this little world
that you've got going on.
It's probably better to simplyincrease in self-awareness.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Absolutely, absolutely.
In your book, next GenerationLeadership, you write I believe
that good leadership is criticalin allowing the best possible
world of tomorrow to be born,and you talk about the systemic
kindness.
(12:36):
So I'd love to hear maybe alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, this idea of systemic kindness was something
that really came out of my firstexperiences of being a coach.
So I first trained as a coachtoo long ago, a long time ago.
But my experiences in havingdelivered coaching, I think
particularly one-to-one maybetrue in teams as well, but not
particularly thought about thatparticularly in one-to-one.
(13:01):
You know, a coaching sessionlasts, let's say, one hour.
I haven't yet had a time whenI've come to the end of an
hour-long session with somebodyand they've concluded that they
want to be less kind than theywere when they started.
Throughout that process let'ssay somebody's wrestling with
the idea of a restructure, whichis a classic thing for leaders
(13:24):
to really feel this tension of Iwant to do the right thing for
the business and I need to dothe right thing by people I want
to feel like I'm beingresponsible, and responsible not
just for the numbers butresponsible for the impact I'm
going to be having on people'slives as we make this decision
together.
Through slowing down in thatcoaching conversation and just
(13:45):
having the opportunity toproperly think and breathe and
feel you can get to the end ofthat session.
I have not yet had theexperience where they go.
Do you know what You're right.
I don't need to care abouteveryone.
I should be being harsher withthe numbers.
There's a lot more that peoplethink about.
(14:05):
Okay, how could I be creativeabout this to impact fewer
people or reduce the impact onindividuals?
Or, you know, find up some waysto make this more appropriate
for people.
The way I'd like to be treatedas if it's a new idea.
You know this been around forthousands of years, um, and so
the thought that I had, thereason why I ended up becoming a
(14:26):
coach, really was that if,through that experience, you're
able to increase the amount ofkindness exhibited by that one
leader, that becomes part of thesystem in a way that processes
do.
That, you know, in a formalizedway.
(14:47):
You know you introduce aprocess and it introduces a
systemic something.
Whatever is appropriate, changethe character of a leader and
it has this ripple effect on thehundreds thousands of people
that are impacted directly bythat leader and the systems that
they then interact with.
And so the solution to makingsystems that are kind is through
(15:09):
individuals.
It has to be through leaders.
You're not going to getprocesses to achieve that.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
What's interesting is that anytime I hear the word
kindness, it gives me pause,because it's not a word that we
typically talk about.
It's not in the day-to-day, forat least for me, but when you
say it I I have a friend and inher email signature line I think
(15:38):
it says um, in kindness.
It always allows me just to,like I said, to pause and just
to to reflect a little bit onthat word well, I think there's
something which is dangerouslyfridge magnet-like of you know
saying just always be kind.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
You know that's a nice thing, a bumper sticker or
you know, one of those littlepictures that you have by the
side of your desk or somethingon your dressing table.
It's a nice idea, but itdoesn't really mean anything.
Of course, be kind, you don'thave something to hurt people,
but be kind like this nice, nice, universal idea that means
nothing.
Basically, you stick it aroundthe place and then pretend like
(16:20):
we actually are.
I'm much more aggressive withit than that, I think maybe
could I could I say uh, it's.
It's.
A good trait of positivemasculinity is to be extremely
ambitious in how kind you'regoing to be to people.
(16:40):
I'm going to radicallytransform people's lives through
kindness.
I just love that thought.
I get much more excited aboutthat than I do about, you know,
incrementally shifting somebodyto be able to get a promotion
from manager to senior managerand I just it's so such a small
ambition to set ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So yeah.
So, there's an intentionalityabout that.
That sounds like like when youare, you know, coaching around
kindness or bringing that intoyour conversations with clients.
What does that look like?
As far as that intentionality,are there steps that leaders
(17:23):
take to be intentionally kind,or am I reading into it too much
?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
to it too much.
Well, I think that that thoselittle you know the four traits
that I mentioned that wisdom,integrity, bravery, kindness
that's basically it that I canposition something in front of
people, and it's not like everysingle coaching conversation I'm
saying how can you do that morekindly?
I think it just comes out.
But I think that people aregenuinely desirous of acting in
(17:56):
a kind way, but they don'treally know how because it's not
codified into the way that theyhave been told how to be a
leader.
Even some of the bravery isn'tparticularly Bravery is
something that you have todemonstrate in order to take on
leadership positions.
As a general rule, that'ssomething that comes up a lot in
coaching.
I think, like kindness issomething which is like this
(18:19):
optional extra where it'spossible to be individually
successful and not be very kind.
There are some examples of thatwhere I've come across them and
just feel like, oh, I don'tlike it and so I certainly don't
want to support it.
(18:39):
But I think you can directlychallenge people and most
leaders.
I think they do want to be kind, but in a lot of ways they
don't know how to as a leader.
So sales, I think, is a goodexample where sales leaders have
kind of been conditionedthrough what that career
(19:00):
progression looks like.
But you absolutely have totreat people as if they are
wallets to take money out of.
I'm not saying this isuniversally true, but I think
there's a good, accurate usecase where it's like you do not
think about the actual personalimpact of something that you're
having.
If you're increasing yournumbers, you are being a good
(19:23):
salesperson and it thereforetakes a brave salesperson who
says, oh, actually, this persondoesn't really need what I'm
selling them, so it's going tohurt my numbers, but it is the
kind thing to do and brave.
You know it's a brave thing todo, to do this right thing.
(19:44):
But it is the sort of thingthat in 10 years' time you look
back on and go.
Yeah, I'm glad that I did that.
You don't look back in pride onhaving hit sales numbers as a
general rule, but you do lookback in pride on going.
I really stuck up my principlesthere.
So that's what it all comesback to, really, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, and then there's the perception when you
think of sales, the perceptionof somebody who says, oh, you're
in sales and then automaticallythey're thinking the negative
piece of that.
I've had that happen instead ofyou know, as you're speaking
about it, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's such an easy thing to bash, isn't it?
When the reality is, you know,we operate in an environment, in
an economic environment, inwhich sales is an extremely
valuable role in the rightcontext.
But you can do it right, youcan do it well or poorly, and I
run a business.
I need to sell in order for thebusiness to remain commercially
(20:52):
sustainable.
I pay the bills, my house bills.
I've got a family of six livingin London.
I need to be able to earn money, so sales is a really important
process.
But there are ways of doingthat, where I had somebody who
contacted me recently and theywere feeling very cross because
(21:13):
they had bought something on mywebsite and then they hadn't
taken advantage of it becausethey had forgotten, and and they
were cross that they had spentthis.
And so they sent me a veryangry email explaining why they
wish that they had never boughtit and that they hope that my
business fails.
And so I sent them an emailapologizing that they hadn't
taken advantage of it and thatthey hope that my business fails
.
And so I sent them an emailapologizing that they hadn't
(21:34):
taken advantage of it andoffering them a full refund.
And they they're my best friendnow because you know they were
expecting me to be this uh, youknow this demon who's only out.
You know the only purpose of mywebsite is to make money.
Right out of some sort ofselfish ambition of saying that
I've done it, I say, oh, if youdon't have your money back, I
(21:57):
don't.
I don't want to make money forthe sake of making people cross?
No, that's the exact opposite,and so I think.
But but you know, I think a lotof organizations are
potentially set up where that'sthe case and I certainly I've
had experiences of calling uporganizations and saying you've
taken this extra payment.
I didn't even know that wascoming out when I had my money
(22:19):
back and then just saying no,too late.
It's written in paragraph 74CII in terms and conditions that
we're going to do this.
But you've got to be reasonable.
Surely you know, isn't this anice?
Isn't this the right thing todo this?
We think, but you've got to bereasonable.
Surely you know?
Isn't this a nice?
Isn't this the right thing todo?
That's right they're not.
It isn't important to the peoplewho've created that setup to do
the right thing.
It's only important to makemoney some.
(22:42):
I just don't get it.
So no, I want, uh, I wantleaders to sort of catch on to
that vision, because thenthey're the ones who are able to
have the impact.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Absolutely Indeed.
Well, we're going to turn ourtalk to technology.
We're going to talk a littlebit about that because the pace
of technology is impacting therole of leadership.
So what does good leadershiplook like in 2025, when we're
(23:12):
thinking about technology andall that's within organizations,
or whether they are 100% onboard with a lot that's coming
down the pike, or whether theyare just kind of tiptoeing in?
What does it look like forleadership, leadership?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
well, I think it's really interesting.
When you look at thedevelopment of technology and
the evolution of leadership overthe last couple of hundred
years, particularly thinkingabout the industrial revolution,
and you know where we've goneto now with the emergence of
generative ai, you can track thesort of leadership traits that
(23:50):
are seen as desirable alongsidethe technology.
So this piece of technologycomes in and therefore we
respond by adopting a leadershipstyle that is more suitable,
based on that tech.
So the easy example to point tois you look back into the
middle ages.
What does a business look like?
It basically looks like this ismy family, my house.
(24:12):
You know, my business isoperating in my house.
That's basically what it is,and so everybody in your
organization are the people thatyou're living with.
Oh, industrial revolution comesalong.
We start to use machines and westart to then see organizations
as machines as well and thehumans are just cogs to fit in
and out of the machines.
If someone gets hurt in thecotton mill and can't work, you
(24:34):
just find somebody else to pluginto that spot to keep the
machine.
The machine's got to keep onworking, sort of thing.
There are changes in the waythat the leaders think.
Over the 20th century, we'veseen, of course, computing
emerge and artificialintelligence coming out of that.
Generative artificialintelligence is the most recent
iteration of that.
You can see the impact onleadership with the second half
(24:57):
of the 20th century, with theway that computing has gone,
where concepts like data-drivendecision-making is because
machines run on data andtherefore leaders sort of adopt
this as well.
If the data says that this istrue, therefore this is the
right decision to make and sothere's a move away from, as you
(25:18):
were saying before, theexperience of me as a human.
This is just feeling like thewrong thing, whereas I look back
to my idea of what a blacksmithlooks like in the Middle Ages
and think, if the lord of themanor comes around and says, how
much is it going to cost me tofor you to do a really nice
sword for me or whatever?
There's parts for you thatfeels like well, the fact that I
(25:40):
have been asked to do such anhonorable task, let's just.
Let's just make it work, shallwe?
You know, something that worksfor you works for me.
I'm going to be proud to havesaid that I've done that work.
But you know, plug that into abig insurance system now and
it's just, this is the rate andthat's it's right, as a leader,
to sort of do that sort of thing.
The emergence of most recentsort of technology, the
(26:01):
impactful sort that we've seenin the last couple of years
through large language models inparticular not limited to that,
but particularly that makes methink that the role of
leadership in the near-termfuture is predominantly going to
be around governance ofcreativity, where over recent
(26:22):
years, creativity has kind ofbeen something that you almost
you don't outsource it.
Insource it, you know there's ateam and you're the creative
people, and then we've got theaccountants and lawyers who are
going to be sort of keeping uswithin guardrails.
Well, actually, a lot of thatsort of role you can use ai to
(26:42):
accelerate, increase the scaleof, increase the impact of.
So, as a leader, that abilityneeds to sort of form part of
your portfolio and just, yeah,it's not good enough just to be
able to make a clear decisionand communicate it.
It's it's around freeing upresource to be able to make
(27:03):
creative, innovative decisions.
That's what I think is going tobe the leadership that shapes
at least the near term.
But there's a lot moretechnology coming that is going
to be the leadership that shapesat least the near term.
But there's a lot moretechnology coming that is going
to absolutely undo all of thatand we're going to have to
reframe it again.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
You know, exciting time to be alive most definitely
an exciting time to be alive,and my, my thinking is so how
you know leaders coming in to,whether they have been
longstanding leaders and now,all of a sudden and maybe it's
not so all of a sudden becausethey've been using different
(27:38):
types of technology and whatnotbut what might leaders need to
learn in order to be in theseroles?
Now, when I think aboutleadership has changed so much,
and will we be just having thesame leaders coming in, or will
(27:59):
organizations be looking forleaders with different things on
their resume now that alignmore with technology?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I think it would be very difficult to operate a
genuinely sustainableorganization and not understand
the concept of generative AI,because somebody who does
understand it is going to comealong and just disrupt you.
It is possible now.
This morning uh, it's afternoonin london, where I am now um,
this morning I went into a localschool and talked to about 13
14 year olds about you know whatdoes the future look like?
(28:42):
Just a quick point of reference.
They didn't know what a popstar was.
I, I used the phrase pop starand the first question I was
asked was what do you mean?
Is the pop star?
they call it my age.
Um, sorry, completely derailedmyself there, um, but as I go,
these are people who are growingup where generative ai is just
(29:06):
a thing by the time that theyhit the workplace.
To not be able to usegenerative AI is going to be
ludicrous.
It's like not knowing how toswitch on a PC.
It's just part of theexperience.
So one of those people quitepossibly could just come up with
an idea in their bedroom andquickly spin up a server online,
(29:28):
chuck some AI model into thereand get the business operating.
I don't know how to do such andsuch, no worries, I'll just
create a consultant, an AIconsultant, who will tell me how
to do that, and then I can getsome advice and I can just make
this happen, and so you couldcreate an organization that
could disrupt any sort ofindustry.
Ai is one particular example ofthat and, and of course, it's
(29:51):
got lots of capabilities and sosomething like that could
disrupt any organization.
So if you're there running, youknow a car manufacturer and you
think, oh, ai, that's not forus, you know, that's for a
different sort of environment,well, you know, you might as
well.
Just it's a ticking time bomb,he's just all it is a question
of you know when is this goingto get disrupted?
(30:12):
Not if, um, so yeah, I supposein.
In short answer to yourquestion, I think leaders do
need to know about technology.
However, I, my desire is that itis more than that that you know
that you're a human at the sametime, that it isn't a pure
pursuit of building a businessjust for the sake of it.
(30:35):
I think that's what there's arisk that we end up with these
blinkers on and you hear peoplesaying at conferences my passion
is this really tight nichewhere you think, no, it isn't,
that's not, it's not at all.
You know your passion is notseeing organisations increase
the bottom line by 10%.
That is not your passion.
Stop saying that it is.
(30:56):
I don't know who you're tryingto kid.
Your passion is much morelikely watching football.
That's what really gets youexcited.
If you do one thing, that'sprobably much more likely.
You might be intellectuallystimulated by some things and
you might have got goodexperience in a certain area.
But let's not, let's not kindof kid ourselves that we've got
(31:16):
these blinkered view like yes,widen our view to be able to
discover that the world is somuch bigger than we realize that
it is, and technology is animportant part of that because
it is changing so rapidly.
I've got a good few years leftin me and by the time that I
retire, the technology that I'musing now, that I think is
(31:40):
really cool, is going to be sofar out of date.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So we kind of need to just keep up with the times, be
open-minded and curious.
Yeah, leaders need to be thatand not to be so staunch.
Especially, I think of you knowI'm the tail end of the baby
boomers and so you know a lot of.
You know my friends andcolleagues in the same
generation.
It's like you know we're stillworking, you know we're still
(32:14):
working.
But I think that there's alsosome people who are baby boomers
who are exiting the workforceand they're glad.
They don't want to learnanything more.
Now I'm different.
I want to learn and because Ithink it's fun, I'm a learner.
But I do think that there aresome people who will just say I
just don't want to keep up.
Technology is just moving toofast and that's okay.
(32:34):
But I love the youngergenerations, how they are really
gravitating and when I think ofmy grandchildren, that's all
they know.
All they know is technology.
I mean, from my little one anda half year, almost two year old
, with know, with FaceTime, withgrandma, you know that that's
what he knows.
He knows to pick up that phone,he knows how to disconnect it's
(32:58):
.
It's just amazing to me.
And so to think about you knowthe, that generation, my
grandchildren, and what they'regoing to be doing.
When they're my age it's likeit blows my mind the could-bes
and what our world is going tolook like.
But it all goes back to whatyou're saying around the
(33:19):
humanness that will never goaway.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, well, I think about it.
I'm a coach and so I operate inthe coaching profession a lot
and I think about what's theimpact of this particular
technology on coaching and AI isa massive one, because you can
automate a coaching conversationand you know AI can do a pretty
(33:43):
good job of it actuallyprobably does a better job than
a lot of.
And welcome to Conversations for Leaders and
Teams.
Today we are talking with SamIsaacson, who is a coaching
consultant and thought leaderwith particular expertise in the
strategic use of coaching andorganizations, and coaching with
technology.
He is the founder of the CoachTech Collective, a global
(00:20):
community of professionalcoaches curious about technology
, and co-founder of AI CoachChat, a technology platform
making non-directiveconversations accessible to
those who can't afford a humancoach.
He was chair of the UKgovernment group that developed
the coaching professionalapprenticeship, england's
(00:41):
biggest coaching qualification.
He is also an author with booksincluding Next Generation
Leadership, how to Thrive as aCoach in a Digital World, and
the Digital and AI CoachesHandbook.
Welcome to the show, sam.
How are you today and where areyou coming to us from?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, Hi Kelly, I'm pretty good today.
Actually, I'm dialing in fromLondon and London.
If anyone knows anything aboutLondon, it's that we have a lot
of cloud here and the overcastskies.
The last couple of days seem tohave cleared and so beautiful
blue skies.
It's a sunny day.
(01:21):
It's cold, but it's lovely andsunny.
So, yeah, looking forward togetting out.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Sun is good.
Sun is good.
I'm in sunny Florida, but todayit's not too sunny.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Okay, we've got it all.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I have the cloud cover, you have the sun, yeah
lovely.
Oh well, I appreciate you beinghere.
I do have a couple of yourbooks.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh yeah, I appreciate you being here.
I do have a couple of yourbooks.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh yeah, I recognize those, a couple of those, and
we're going to be talking alittle bit about kind of both of
them and just kind of see wherethe conversation goes.
But I'm going to start right inwith some questions and we'll
go from there.
So I heard you describe leadersas ancestors, humans and change
makers.
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yes, well, they kind of don't really fit together.
And that's kind of the point,that these are three lenses
through which to look atleadership, and I think it's
actually important to recognizethat each sits as its own sort
of autonomous, abstract conceptwhich leadership can sit within,
and that when we combine thethree of them together, that's
(02:32):
where, that's where we havetruly effective leaders that do
things in the right sort of way.
So I'll briefly explain each ofthem and hopefully we'll see
that where the venn diagram sits.
So, um, I'll start with changemaker, because I think that's
probably the simplest of thethree, which is'll see that
where the Venn diagram sits.
So I'll start with change maker, because I think that's
probably the simplest of thethree, which is to say that if
you are a leader, there ought tobe some sense of you acting as
(02:53):
a catalyst for change.
And it's simple enough,actually, when we think about
the role of leadership in a lotof organizations, that the role
of leader is something that is.
Role of leader is somethingthat is sort of given to people
as they just progress through acareer ladder until you take on
a role in which you're notexpected to change things,
(03:13):
you're expected to maintainthings, and for me, that isn't
leadership, that's some sort ofcurator role.
But we're talking leadershiphere.
We're meant to be introducingchange and leading people
through a response to change,and if there's anything that is
true about the world we'reliving in at the moment is that
we're surrounded by change, andso we need to be those who are
(03:35):
provoking change ourselves, inourselves and in our people.
That's an important aspect ofleadership, so leaders should be
change makers.
I think the leader as ancestorpiece.
That's really where the title ofmy book, next Generation
Leadership, came from this ideathat actually, when we think
about ourselves as leaders,there's a lot of characteristics
(03:57):
that we're presented with asthese good leadership
characteristics.
And, in truth, when we lookback on ourselves in the future
and we think, what are theleadership traits that I've
demonstrated, it's not going tobe so important that we acted
decisively, but it is going tobe important that we left a
legacy that we're really proudof and are really able to say,
(04:18):
yeah, I did the right thingduring that time when things
were really tough, I made theright decisions.
You know, I did things in a waythat I'm really proud of.
And so, thinking about the roleof leader in terms of the
impacts that it has at asystemic level, just in the
teams that we're working with,and then the external
stakeholders that areinteracting with, those, which
(04:39):
includes the non-work world, youknow, the families and
neighborhoods, the natural world, and particularly thinking
about, what does this mean formy children, my grandchildren?
Are they going to look back atthe role I've played as a leader
and think I'm so happy thatthis person was a leader at that
time?
Or are they going to have someof the difficult conversations
(05:00):
that we're having to have at themoment?
Thinking about is the way thatwe acted as a race, you know, 50
, 100, 1000 years ago, you know,is it appropriate that we acted
in that way?
Then?
You know, do we want to kind ofmake excuses for our ancestors?
I don't want to feel like mydescendants need to make excuses
(05:21):
for me, and so that's animportant aspect there.
And then the third of thosethree lenses, which is, you know
, leader as human.
This really is, then, the waythat those two concepts are then
applied in reality, which isthat we are all humans and we
are often treated in the workcontext as if we are effectively
(05:46):
brains that happen to be housedin, you know, in flesh robots.
That's kind of the way that weare treated.
You know a piece in a machineand actually we have got human
bodies and our bodies give usinformation and we can lead
using the information our bodygives us.
We have got emotions and ouremotions are real and valid and
(06:07):
they give us important data todraw from.
It doesn't mean out of anger,but it means you know, recognize
I am feeling frightened at themoment.
I don't need to ignore it, Ijust need to recognize this is
something that is real for me.
Maybe others are also feelingthat.
You know, let's bring that intothe conversation and let's
(06:29):
recognize things like I've gotpersonal values and you know,
with my upbringing I am a wholehuman.
I am not just CFO or head of IT, service delivery or something,
as if it's you know thissomebody writing a textbook and
we've sort of created this roleinside it where we haven't got
the human there.
So hopefully that's enough.
(06:51):
I'll let you fill in some ofthe gaps there.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, thank you for that.
And, as you were, as you weretalking, you were talking about
legacy.
I'm wondering if, in yourresearch, if that you know how I
want to lead my legacy, do youbelieve that it's different
based on the generations?
Have you thought about that?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Could you explain what you mean by the question?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Well, I'm thinking about what's important for me in
this day and age in leaving alegacy.
Do you believe that it's thesame over time or that it
changes based on what we'reexperiencing within our
generation and what we want toleave?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Well, that is an extraordinarily difficult topic
to wrestle with.
In some ways, I think theanswer is actually much simpler
than we want to make it.
So.
There are certain humancharacteristics that have always
been valued universally, acrosscultures, across times.
I summarise these as basicallythese four characteristics, or
(07:58):
four leadership traits, if youlike, of wisdom, integrity,
bravery and kindness.
You like of wisdom, integrity,bravery and kindness, where
there is no society at any pointin history that has said we
want people to not haveintegrity, or we want people to
be cowards or we want people tobe unkind.
You know, these are they.
They they're leadership traitsthat we have always valued and
(08:21):
it's probably a little bit toosimple to just get caught up in
some sort of societal pressurethat we end up kind of defining
it based on trying to think ofwhat is a good example that
isn't going to get anybody intotrouble.
There probably isn't.
One is there.
You know that we can end upsaying, well, at this moment
this thing is true or appears tobe true and therefore I need to
(08:45):
sort of stand behind thisparticular narrative.
I don't think that it's thatimportant.
The narrative itself isn't soimportant, but just exhibiting
integrity, exhibiting bravery,exhibiting kindness and wisdom,
and wisdom really is admittingthat you don't know and it's
okay wisdom and wisdom really isadmitting that you don't know,
(09:05):
and it's okay.
Yeah, it's a good leadershiptrait.
When we look back at the greatphilosophers that have shaped
Western thinking, when you lookat what they were writing, they
didn't seem to write hey, I amthe cleverest person around it's
.
I've looked as far as I canpossibly get and I've discovered
that I know much less than Ithought I did.
That's something that's good,that's right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Now I love that answer because you know I never
thought about it until you weretalking and then I was trying to
focus on you but that poppedinto my mind and then around the
emotions, that is something Ijust had a conversation
yesterday with a leader, likeit's okay, and too many times
(09:47):
you know we're thinking aboutthat.
You know authoritativeleadership style that used to be
and that you were not able tobring emotions into the
workplace.
You weren't able to bring yourfull self and we want people now
to be their full selves and tobring those emotions.
(10:08):
And, like you said, it's notlike we're going to be having
fistfights or anything withinthe office, but we definitely
want people to exhibit theiremotions and, like you said,
that leads into what a person isfeeling and experiencing in
(10:28):
those moments.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And I think it's important also to acknowledge
that there are these littlefashionable throwaway statements
that get thrown out as if it's,uh, a universal truth to say I
mean, you haven't said it inthere, but there, a way that it
(10:56):
would be phrased by certainpeople is this idea of like,
bring your whole self to work,and in certain circumstances,
that would be utterly ridiculous.
It's totally inappropriate.
You shouldn't be bringing yourwhole self to work, but you
should be aware of your wholeself in order to bring an
appropriate, right version ofyourself into the workplace.
Um, and that's, I think it'ssomething that it's easy to to
(11:22):
your question around.
You know, how do you leave alegacy?
Within the current context, itcan feel like there are two.
There are only two routes totake.
If you're going through adivorce and it's really tough
and you're high in emotions allthe time, you should either
(11:42):
fully present yourself in yourstressed-out state and everyone
should just accept you exactlyas you are and never correct it,
or you should compartmentaliseand act as if this is a separate
world that is not at allrelevant to the way that you're
turning up to work, whenactually the truth is.
In some ways, both are true andneither are true.
It is a truth and also thereare appropriate ways to act and
(12:07):
it's not sensible to drag otherpeople into this little world
that you've got going on.
It's probably better to simplyincrease in self-awareness.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Absolutely, absolutely.
In your book, next GenerationLeadership, you write I believe
that good leadership is criticalin allowing the best possible
world of tomorrow to be born,and you talk about the systemic
kindness.
(12:36):
So I'd love to hear maybe alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, this idea of systemic kindness was something
that really came out of my firstexperiences of being a coach.
So I first trained as a coachtoo long ago, a long time ago.
But my experiences in havingdelivered coaching, I think
particularly one-to-one maybetrue in teams as well, but not
particularly thought about thatparticularly in one-to-one.
(13:01):
You know, a coaching sessionlasts, let's say, one hour.
I haven't yet had a time whenI've come to the end of an
hour-long session with somebodyand they've concluded that they
want to be less kind than theywere when they started.
Throughout that process let'ssay somebody's wrestling with
the idea of a restructure, whichis a classic thing for leaders
(13:24):
to really feel this tension of Iwant to do the right thing for
the business and I need to dothe right thing by people I want
to feel like I'm beingresponsible, and responsible not
just for the numbers butresponsible for the impact I'm
going to be having on people'slives as we make this decision
together.
Through slowing down in thatcoaching conversation and just
(13:45):
having the opportunity toproperly think and breathe and
feel you can get to the end ofthat session.
I have not yet had theexperience where they go.
Do you know what You're right.
I don't need to care abouteveryone.
I should be being harsher withthe numbers.
There's a lot more that peoplethink about.
(14:05):
Okay, how could I be creativeabout this to impact fewer
people or reduce the impact onindividuals?
Or, you know, find up some waysto make this more appropriate
for people.
The way I'd like to be treatedas if it's a new idea.
You know this been around forthousands of years, um, and so
the thought that I had, thereason why I ended up becoming a
(14:26):
coach, really was that if,through that experience, you're
able to increase the amount ofkindness exhibited by that one
leader, that becomes part of thesystem in a way that processes
do.
That, you know, in a formalizedway.
(14:47):
You know you introduce aprocess and it introduces a
systemic something.
Whatever is appropriate, changethe character of a leader and
it has this ripple effect on thehundreds thousands of people
that are impacted directly bythat leader and the systems that
they then interact with.
And so the solution to makingsystems that are kind is through
(15:09):
individuals.
It has to be through leaders.
You're not going to getprocesses to achieve that.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
What's interesting is that anytime I hear the word
kindness, it gives me pause,because it's not a word that we
typically talk about.
It's not in the day-to-day, forat least for me, but when you
say it I I have a friend and inher email signature line I think
(15:38):
it says um, in kindness.
It always allows me just to,like I said, to pause and just
to to reflect a little bit onthat word well, I think there's
something which is dangerouslyfridge magnet-like of you know
saying just always be kind.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
You know that's a nice thing, a bumper sticker or
you know, one of those littlepictures that you have by the
side of your desk or somethingon your dressing table.
It's a nice idea, but itdoesn't really mean anything.
Of course, be kind, you don'thave something to hurt people,
but be kind like this nice, nice, universal idea that means
nothing.
Basically, you stick it aroundthe place and then pretend like
(16:20):
we actually are.
I'm much more aggressive withit than that, I think maybe
could I could I say uh, it's.
It's.
A good trait of positivemasculinity is to be extremely
ambitious in how kind you'regoing to be to people.
(16:40):
I'm going to radicallytransform people's lives through
kindness.
I just love that thought.
I get much more excited aboutthat than I do about, you know,
incrementally shifting somebodyto be able to get a promotion
from manager to senior managerand I just it's so such a small
ambition to set ourselves.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
So yeah.
So, there's an intentionalityabout that.
That sounds like like when youare, you know, coaching around
kindness or bringing that intoyour conversations with clients.
What does that look like?
As far as that intentionality,are there steps that leaders
(17:23):
take to be intentionally kind,or am I reading into it too much
?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
to it too much.
Well, I think that that thoselittle you know the four traits
that I mentioned that wisdom,integrity, bravery, kindness
that's basically it that I canposition something in front of
people, and it's not like everysingle coaching conversation I'm
saying how can you do that morekindly?
I think it just comes out.
But I think that people aregenuinely desirous of acting in
(17:56):
a kind way, but they don'treally know how because it's not
codified into the way that theyhave been told how to be a
leader.
Even some of the bravery isn'tparticularly Bravery is
something that you have todemonstrate in order to take on
leadership positions.
As a general rule, that'ssomething that comes up a lot in
coaching.
I think, like kindness issomething which is like this
(18:19):
optional extra where it'spossible to be individually
successful and not be very kind.
There are some examples of thatwhere I've come across them and
just feel like, oh, I don'tlike it and so I certainly don't
want to support it.
(18:39):
But I think you can directlychallenge people and most
leaders.
I think they do want to be kind, but in a lot of ways they
don't know how to as a leader.
So sales, I think, is a goodexample where sales leaders have
kind of been conditionedthrough what that career
(19:00):
progression looks like.
But you absolutely have totreat people as if they are
wallets to take money out of.
I'm not saying this isuniversally true, but I think
there's a good, accurate usecase where it's like you do not
think about the actual personalimpact of something that you're
having.
If you're increasing yournumbers, you are being a good
(19:23):
salesperson and it thereforetakes a brave salesperson who
says, oh, actually, this persondoesn't really need what I'm
selling them, so it's going tohurt my numbers, but it is the
kind thing to do and brave.
You know it's a brave thing todo, to do this right thing.
(19:44):
But it is the sort of thingthat in 10 years' time you look
back on and go.
Yeah, I'm glad that I did that.
You don't look back in pride onhaving hit sales numbers as a
general rule, but you do lookback in pride on going.
I really stuck up my principlesthere.
So that's what it all comesback to, really, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yeah, and then there's the perception when you
think of sales, the perceptionof somebody who says, oh, you're
in sales and then automaticallythey're thinking the negative
piece of that.
I've had that happen instead ofyou know, as you're speaking
about it, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's such an easy thing to bash, isn't it?
When the reality is, you know,we operate in an environment, in
an economic environment, inwhich sales is an extremely
valuable role in the rightcontext.
But you can do it right, youcan do it well or poorly, and I
run a business.
I need to sell in order for thebusiness to remain commercially
(20:52):
sustainable.
I pay the bills, my house bills.
I've got a family of six livingin London.
I need to be able to earn money, so sales is a really important
process.
But there are ways of doingthat, where I had somebody who
contacted me recently and theywere feeling very cross because
(21:13):
they had bought something on mywebsite and then they hadn't
taken advantage of it becausethey had forgotten, and and they
were cross that they had spentthis.
And so they sent me a veryangry email explaining why they
wish that they had never boughtit and that they hope that my
business fails.
And so I sent them an emailapologizing that they hadn't
taken advantage of it and thatthey hope that my business fails
.
And so I sent them an emailapologizing that they hadn't
(21:34):
taken advantage of it andoffering them a full refund.
And they they're my best friendnow because you know they were
expecting me to be this uh, youknow this demon who's only out.
You know the only purpose of mywebsite is to make money.
Right out of some sort ofselfish ambition of saying that
I've done it, I say, oh, if youdon't have your money back, I
(21:57):
don't.
I don't want to make money forthe sake of making people cross?
No, that's the exact opposite,and so I think.
But but you know, I think a lotof organizations are
potentially set up where that'sthe case and I certainly I've
had experiences of calling uporganizations and saying you've
taken this extra payment.
I didn't even know that wascoming out when I had my money
(22:19):
back and then just saying no,too late.
It's written in paragraph 74CII in terms and conditions that
we're going to do this.
But you've got to be reasonable.
Surely you know, isn't this anice?
Isn't this the right thing todo this?
We think, but you've got to bereasonable.
Surely you know?
Isn't this a nice?
Isn't this the right thing todo?
That's right they're not.
It isn't important to the peoplewho've created that setup to do
the right thing.
It's only important to makemoney some.
(22:42):
I just don't get it.
So no, I want, uh, I wantleaders to sort of catch on to
that vision, because thenthey're the ones who are able to
have the impact.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Absolutely Indeed.
Well, we're going to turn ourtalk to technology.
We're going to talk a littlebit about that because the pace
of technology is impacting therole of leadership.
So what does good leadershiplook like in 2025, when we're
(23:12):
thinking about technology andall that's within organizations,
or whether they are 100% onboard with a lot that's coming
down the pike, or whether theyare just kind of tiptoeing in?
What does it look like forleadership, leadership?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
well, I think it's really interesting.
When you look at thedevelopment of technology and
the evolution of leadership overthe last couple of hundred
years, particularly thinkingabout the industrial revolution,
and you know where we've goneto now with the emergence of
generative ai, you can track thesort of leadership traits that
(23:50):
are seen as desirable alongsidethe technology.
So this piece of technologycomes in and therefore we
respond by adopting a leadershipstyle that is more suitable,
based on that tech.
So the easy example to point tois you look back into the
middle ages.
What does a business look like?
It basically looks like this ismy family, my house.
(24:12):
You know, my business isoperating in my house.
That's basically what it is,and so everybody in your
organization are the people thatyou're living with.
Oh, industrial revolution comesalong.
We start to use machines and westart to then see organizations
as machines as well and thehumans are just cogs to fit in
and out of the machines.
If someone gets hurt in thecotton mill and can't work, you
(24:34):
just find somebody else to pluginto that spot to keep the
machine.
The machine's got to keep onworking, sort of thing.
There are changes in the waythat the leaders think.
Over the 20th century, we'veseen, of course, computing
emerge and artificialintelligence coming out of that.
Generative artificialintelligence is the most recent
iteration of that.
You can see the impact onleadership with the second half
(24:57):
of the 20th century, with theway that computing has gone,
where concepts like data-drivendecision-making is because
machines run on data andtherefore leaders sort of adopt
this as well.
If the data says that this istrue, therefore this is the
right decision to make and sothere's a move away from, as you
(25:18):
were saying before, theexperience of me as a human.
This is just feeling like thewrong thing, whereas I look back
to my idea of what a blacksmithlooks like in the Middle Ages
and think, if the lord of themanor comes around and says, how
much is it going to cost me tofor you to do a really nice
sword for me or whatever?
There's parts for you thatfeels like well, the fact that I
(25:40):
have been asked to do such anhonorable task, let's just.
Let's just make it work, shallwe?
You know, something that worksfor you works for me.
I'm going to be proud to havesaid that I've done that work.
But you know, plug that into abig insurance system now and
it's just, this is the rate andthat's it's right, as a leader,
to sort of do that sort of thing.
The emergence of most recentsort of technology, the
(26:01):
impactful sort that we've seenin the last couple of years
through large language models inparticular not limited to that,
but particularly that makes methink that the role of
leadership in the near-termfuture is predominantly going to
be around governance ofcreativity, where over recent
(26:22):
years, creativity has kind ofbeen something that you almost
you don't outsource it.
Insource it, you know there's ateam and you're the creative
people, and then we've got theaccountants and lawyers who are
going to be sort of keeping uswithin guardrails.
Well, actually, a lot of thatsort of role you can use ai to
(26:42):
accelerate, increase the scaleof, increase the impact of.
So, as a leader, that abilityneeds to sort of form part of
your portfolio and just, yeah,it's not good enough just to be
able to make a clear decisionand communicate it.
It's it's around freeing upresource to be able to make
(27:03):
creative, innovative decisions.
That's what I think is going tobe the leadership that shapes
at least the near term.
But there's a lot moretechnology coming that is going
to be the leadership that shapesat least the near term.
But there's a lot moretechnology coming that is going
to absolutely undo all of thatand we're going to have to
reframe it again.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
You know, exciting time to be alive most definitely
an exciting time to be alive,and my, my thinking is so how
you know leaders coming in to,whether they have been
longstanding leaders and now,all of a sudden and maybe it's
not so all of a sudden becausethey've been using different
(27:38):
types of technology and whatnotbut what might leaders need to
learn in order to be in theseroles?
Now, when I think aboutleadership has changed so much,
and will we be just having thesame leaders coming in, or will
(27:59):
organizations be looking forleaders with different things on
their resume now that alignmore with technology?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I think it would be very difficult to operate a
genuinely sustainableorganization and not understand
the concept of generative AI,because somebody who does
understand it is going to comealong and just disrupt you.
It is possible now.
This morning uh, it's afternoonin london, where I am now um,
this morning I went into a localschool and talked to about 13
14 year olds about you know whatdoes the future look like?
(28:42):
Just a quick point of reference.
They didn't know what a popstar was.
I, I used the phrase pop starand the first question I was
asked was what do you mean?
Is the pop star?
they call it my age.
Um, sorry, completely derailedmyself there, um, but as I go,
these are people who are growingup where generative ai is just
(29:06):
a thing by the time that theyhit the workplace.
To not be able to usegenerative AI is going to be
ludicrous.
It's like not knowing how toswitch on a PC.
It's just part of theexperience.
So one of those people quitepossibly could just come up with
an idea in their bedroom andquickly spin up a server online,
(29:28):
chuck some AI model into thereand get the business operating.
I don't know how to do such andsuch, no worries, I'll just
create a consultant, an AIconsultant, who will tell me how
to do that, and then I can getsome advice and I can just make
this happen, and so you couldcreate an organization that
could disrupt any sort ofindustry.
Ai is one particular example ofthat and, and of course, it's
(29:51):
got lots of capabilities and sosomething like that could
disrupt any organization.
So if you're there running, youknow a car manufacturer and you
think, oh, ai, that's not forus, you know, that's for a
different sort of environment,well, you know, you might as
well.
Just it's a ticking time bomb,he's just all it is a question
of you know when is this goingto get disrupted?
(30:12):
Not if, um, so yeah, I supposein.
In short answer to yourquestion, I think leaders do
need to know about technology.
However, I, my desire is that itis more than that that you know
that you're a human at the sametime, that it isn't a pure
pursuit of building a businessjust for the sake of it.
(30:35):
I think that's what there's arisk that we end up with these
blinkers on and you hear peoplesaying at conferences my passion
is this really tight nichewhere you think, no, it isn't,
that's not, it's not at all.
You know your passion is notseeing organisations increase
the bottom line by 10%.
That is not your passion.
Stop saying that it is.
(30:56):
I don't know who you're tryingto kid.
Your passion is much morelikely watching football.
That's what really gets youexcited.
If you do one thing, that'sprobably much more likely.
You might be intellectuallystimulated by some things and
you might have got goodexperience in a certain area.
But let's not, let's not kindof kid ourselves that we've got
(31:16):
these blinkered view like yes,widen our view to be able to
discover that the world is somuch bigger than we realize that
it is, and technology is animportant part of that because
it is changing so rapidly.
I've got a good few years leftin me and by the time that I
retire, the technology that I'musing now, that I think is
(31:40):
really cool, is going to be sofar out of date.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
So we kind of need to just keep up with the times, be
open-minded and curious.
Yeah, leaders need to be thatand not to be so staunch.
Especially, I think of you knowI'm the tail end of the baby
boomers and so you know a lot of.
You know my friends andcolleagues in the same
generation.
It's like you know we're stillworking, you know we're still
(32:14):
working.
But I think that there's alsosome people who are baby boomers
who are exiting the workforceand they're glad.
They don't want to learnanything more.
Now I'm different.
I want to learn and because Ithink it's fun, I'm a learner.
But I do think that there aresome people who will just say I
just don't want to keep up.
Technology is just moving toofast and that's okay.
(32:34):
But I love the youngergenerations, how they are really
gravitating and when I think ofmy grandchildren, that's all
they know.
All they know is technology.
I mean, from my little one anda half year, almost two year old
, with know, with FaceTime, withgrandma, you know that that's
what he knows.
He knows to pick up that phone,he knows how to disconnect it's
(32:58):
.
It's just amazing to me.
And so to think about you knowthe, that generation, my
grandchildren, and what they'regoing to be doing.
When they're my age it's likeit blows my mind the could-bes
and what our world is going tolook like.
But it all goes back to whatyou're saying around the
(33:19):
humanness that will never goaway.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, well, I think about it.
I'm a coach and so I operate inthe coaching profession a lot
and I think about what's theimpact of this particular
technology on coaching and AI isa massive one, because you can
automate a coaching conversationand you know AI can do a pretty
(33:43):
good job of it actuallyprobably does a better job than
a lot of.
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