July 15, 2025 • 36 mins
Julie Jenkins and Dr. Thomas Anderson II explore how leaders can navigate complex change by embracing curiosity as a way of being rather than seeking stability or rushing to solutions.
• Complex change differs from linear change—there's no step-by-step process, only sense-making and educated guesses
• Leaders create the "weather" for their teams—their approach to uncertainty directly affects how others respond
• Moving from a controlling leadership style to a curious one requires sitting with the discomfort of not knowing
• Breaking out of leadership defaults requires self-awareness and intentionally designing new responses
• Creating spaciousness, asking one more question, and mapping out knowns versus unknowns are practical leadership tools
• Resistance and readiness are two sides of the same coin—resistance signals important information
• Embracing paradox ("two things can be true") helps teams move forward despite uncertainty
• Approaching change as experiments allows for learning without judgment about right or wrong
• Being vulnerable with your team builds trust that sustains through uncertainty
Remember that leadership during complex change doesn't require having all the answers. Be kind to yourself, extend compassion to others, and trust the process of learning as you go.
Connect with our experts on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-jenkins/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomasandersonii/
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, welcome to Conversations where today we are
going to be talking aboutcomplex change and how leaders
can hold that complexity throughthe lens of curiosity as a way
of being.
Today we welcome in JulieJenkins and returning guest Dr
Thomas Anderson II.
Both are experts in their fieldof organizational development
and change.
(00:20):
It's good to see you both,welcome.
Welcome, how are you both todayand where are you coming from?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So I'll get us started.
Good morning In my part of theworld.
I am coming in from Calgary,Alberta, Canada.
It's so wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, I am coming from Germantown, Maryland, and thank
you for having me as well.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
We're going to be talking aboutcomplex change and the leader's
role and the work that you'redoing.
I would first love for you totell our listeners how you met.
Who'd like to?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
tackle that.
Well, since it was since Iinitiated it, I will tackle that
.
I reached out to Julie afterhaving read her master's thesis
on coaching cultures and it wassuch a great read.
It was so full of insights thatyou know I reached out, as I do
(01:23):
, dr Whelan, as you well know.
I put the cold emails in.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know I reached out, as I do, dr Whalen, as you
well know with the cold emailsand you know, julie responded
and rest is history and I lovehow it's okay to do that.
When you and I think morepeople need to do that Like if
you're reading something onLinkedIn or wherever you, you
know, see something that you'relike, wow, that is exciting and
(01:47):
I'm really interested in aboutthat People, most people would
find that that's kind of fun.
Was it fun for you?
Was it interesting, julie?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
It was really flattering, honestly, I thought,
because going into a master'sthesis, I was told nobody's
going to read this and you'regoing to find maybe one or two
people who find this at allinteresting for their scope of
work.
And then so to get an emailfrom Thomas to be like, hey, I
saw this and I actually read it,and can we meet, I was like, oh
my goodness, I was so flattered, I thought that was amazing and
(02:18):
it's been such a wonderfulconnection.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, I'm looking forward to the work that I know
that the two of you are going tobe bringing forward, and I'd
love to.
We're going to be talking aboutcomplex change in the leader's
role, but I would first like isthere a difference between we
hear about, you know, withinorganizations?
There listeners identify whatcomplex change may be and how
(02:48):
it's different than just aregular change effort.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I often think about change onsort of a spectrum between
transactional, transformationaland that's how I really thought
about it sort of my whole career.
You know the transactionalbeing very straightforward
there's a stepwise process tofollow things, transformational
sort of being on that side as wedon't really know where we're
going.
Sometimes, but we know where weare right now isn't where we
(03:15):
need to be or where we want tobe, and so then how do we move
in something that feels morealigned to our vision, our
strategy, our outcomes, ourclients, our partners?
Complex change in my mind sortof takes that a little bit
further, in the sense thatcomplexity means that there's so
many things happening all atthe same time that there's no
way to sort of sense make, andso all the time we're trying to
(03:37):
figure out what's the bestdecision, where do we go next,
and really only in retrospectcan we see if the decisions that
we made in real time got us tothe outcomes that we were
looking for.
And so often that I find that,at least in the spaces that I
sit I work in education, highered that there's this real need
(03:57):
to start to think of things inthe change space is quite linear
.
You know what's step one, steptwo, step three, Complex change
sort of turns that on its headbecause there is no steps.
There know what's step one,step two, step three, Complex
change sort of turns that on itshead because there is no steps.
There is no right way, there'sno.
This is the next thing that wedo.
There's only like can we makesense of what's happening in the
environment and make a bestguess or an estimate, and then
really spend some time learning.
(04:17):
And it's through thatcomplexity that we have to sense
, make, go out into ourenvironment and then come back
and make it as best and educatedguess as we can as to around
what is our next step.
But we're never going to knowuntil we sort of sit and look in
the rearview mirror and say, ohyeah, you know that that was
the thing that really helpedmove us forward.
Or oh gosh, that was a lot oflearning.
That didn't feel really good,but here's what we can do
(04:40):
because of that moving forward.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Thank you for that, Dr Anderson.
Do you want to add anything tothat?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
No, I think that was a very articulate response, I
think the only.
Well then, yes, the only thingthat I would add and it's not an
addition, it's moreunderscoring the fact that
answers, a lot of answers, arenot available in complex change.
You can't always understand orarticulate why when you go into
it, but maybe it's a gut feeling.
But, yes, all of that, all ofwhat Julie said.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Excellent and how important for leaders to look
back, or the team to look back,the organization to look back
and see what was important forus to learn from that complex
change, I think is crucial andmany times it's a misstep, for
(05:37):
leaders to sit in that, yes.
Well, julie, you wrote a poston LinkedIn pondering what is
the role of leadership wheneveryone is holding their breath
waiting for the next wave ofchange.
I'd love to hear what promptedthis for you.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yes, so.
So I work in organizationaldevelopment, like I said, in
higher education and within theCanadian post-secondary higher
ed space.
The federal government camedown last summer and made some
pretty big, sweeping changes tointernational students and their
ability to study in Canada, andthese changes have had
(06:18):
far-reaching implications acrossall provinces of the country.
And so, working in this space,what I have continually seen
since last summer is like justeverybody waiting right.
It's like we're going to waitfor the next set of updates from
the government, we're going towait for the next set of
decisions by our senior leaders,we're going to wait for what
(06:39):
you know the province decides todo, you know similar to states
in the United States, like whatis our province going to do in
response to what the federalgovernment has done?
And so every conversation thatI was going into, it just felt
like well, when things getstable, when the next wave of
change comes, when we get somemore information, and it felt
like that we were justconstantly waiting for this next
something, whatever thatsomething was, to feel like we
(07:00):
could move forward.
And yet I just observed thateverybody was holding their
breath and it was like we'rejust we're just holding, waiting
, and in change.
That doesn't really happen alltoo well, you know, because we,
I don't think stability is athing anymore.
I think that there's a realshift that we're going to have
(07:21):
to start contemplating aroundinstead of trying to figure out
how do we get to that nextstable place, what can we do in
the here and now, and what arethose skills or those ways that
leaders can show up?
That provides a sense ofstability in this moment, but
doesn't necessarily mean thatwe're waiting for the next thing
.
And so what prompted this postwas just me observing in my
(07:44):
environment the conversations Iwas having with leaders around,
everybody just be like white,knuckling it, like we're almost
there, and then the next emailwould land or the next news
update would come, andeverybody's like, oh God, like.
And so it was just like theperpetual, like riding these,
like very tumultuous waves, andit's, you know, it begs the
question, at least in my mindwhat else can we do if we sort
(08:07):
of accept that this is not goingto change and that that
stability is not maybe somethingthat is going to come in the
same ways that we've seen thatprior?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, and Thomas, when I think about leaders, many
times instinctively they'refixers or problem solvers.
Many times, instinctivelythey're fixers or problem
solvers.
So maybe when you think aboutthat, how important is it Like
what, what, what Julie wassaying with the communication
with your people when you'regoing through complex change?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, and when Julie brought up waiting, I thought
and I made a little note hereabout active waiting and
inactive wait.
And holding our breath is moreof a type of inactive waiting,
and I think the role of theleader would be to, number one,
detect that, if not just withtheir people and this is central
(08:59):
to our work with themselves,with that self-awareness piece,
to realize that people areholding their breath.
Am I holding mine too, you know, am I anxious?
What is going on for me?
But then with the, so that'sthe you know inactivity.
You know I don't know what'sgoing to happen, things are
uncertain, but then once youbreathe out what happens, and
(09:22):
for a leader, I think it can bepowerful.
You know what?
The words of Warner Burke.
He said a leader's role is toelicit the foresight that is in
the organization, is within theteam, and so you can, you know,
a leader can move from theinactive waiting and even move
their people from the inactivewaiting to that activity of.
(09:43):
Okay, let me shift my role alittle bit.
Maybe I don't have control, butmaybe I don't have control of
what's going on on the outside.
What do I have control overthat's going on on the inside?
And then the extension to myteam.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And it sounds like a wonderful coaching opportunity
for both individuals and teams.
What say you?
Yes, absolutely.
Helping, helping the individualleader, like you said.
You know, actually question andhave that self-awareness and
(10:19):
for them to then get curiousabout if I'm feeling this way
and if I'm exhibiting this, thenwhat is my team feeling and
exhibiting?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, yeah, I recently heard the expression
that leaders create the weatherand I loved this idea of you
know how we're showing up, whatwe're doing, what we're not
doing.
You know, are we waiting andhow are we waiting?
Is it active waiting?
(10:51):
Is it not Like that isprojected onto our teams in some
ways?
And so, you know, recognizingthat in ourselves, I think
really is the first step ingetting curious about that.
Like, oh gosh, like I feel thatI feel that tension in my chest
, I feel like my stomach noddingout, like oh, I got to go into
this next meeting and I don'tknow how I feel about.
(11:11):
Like that curiosity and thatplace of starting to sort of
make sense of that is a reallybeautiful place to start before
we even get into our teams,because our teams are going to
pick up on that.
You know what's said, what's notsaid, how we show up.
You know, are we hurried?
Are we avoiding questions?
Like, are we leaning in?
(11:32):
Are we inviting dissent, likeall of those things I think
really set the tone for how wecan show up as leaders in these
complex spaces and it reallylike I so appreciate what you
said, thomas too around it.
It starts with us, it comesback to us and sort of starting
with our own sense of what'sgoing on here.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
before then I go out there yes, yeah, and so maybe to
continue on that, the leader'sstyle, like, how is the leader's
style?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
going to impact, maybe not necessarily the it.
Within the bounds of theframework that we have emerging
here, we have a controllingstyle and we have a curious
style, just to simplify it alittle bit and so the
controlling style is dictating,it's telling people what to do.
(12:47):
A curious style is sitting withthe discomfort of not knowing,
the discomfort of not knowing.
The curious style is also,maybe, journaling about some
things that could cause anxiety,some things that are, you know,
making knots in their stomach,or you know, a lot of times
(13:11):
these things happen at twoo'clock in the morning and the
leader's up, and at two o'clockin the morning and the leader's
up.
So that's the best time tofigure out what has me awake
when the rest of my neighborhoodis sleeping and for my
neighborhood, I can look around.
Sometimes, you know, at twoo'clock in the morning maybe
there are one or two lights on.
That's just the entrepreneuriallife or the life of a leader,
(13:35):
you know.
But in the quiet moments,what's going on with me?
And you know, so that allimpacts the style.
You know I was on a call with aconsultant from New Zealand the
other day and he was telling meabout you know, I'm getting his
(13:55):
ideas about this coaching toolthat I've come up with and I've
been using it for 20 years, andyou know, I'm just getting out
there.
He said.
I asked him, I said, well, whowould this not work well for?
And he told me, well, probablythe higher-up lawyer, the person
who has it all together, theperson who has all their steps.
So for me, you know, and not to, you know, put a type on it,
(14:16):
but just the person, you know, Ithink of a type, A person who's
driven, who always has theanswers, who always is expected
to have the answers.
You know, that person is goingto show up differently and it
may be harder for them to adopta different style altogether,
style altogether.
But there are some things thatcan be done, like, you know,
just open questioning, you know,just asking people questions
(14:42):
that don't have a yes or noanswer.
That can bridge the gap betweenthat controlling style and that
curious style.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, and I'd add to that too, that we all sort of
have these default spaces thathave served us in some ways.
We've, you know, we come intoleadership positions and we
bring with us sort of our liferight, like there's life behind
us.
You know, even if I think aboutmy own leadership journey, you
(15:10):
know, there have been thoseexperiences where I, you know, I
still think about them todayand they happened 20 years ago
and I say, under nocircumstances am I going to do
that thing again.
And so then I flip to the otherside and then there's things
where I'm like, oh gosh, thatwas so good.
I, I'm going to do that againbecause I liked it.
But at some point, whether it'sgood or bad or it adds or
(15:33):
detracts it, there's also sortof this idea of default.
So we're coming in into thesedefault spaces and we might not
even know that we're defaultingin some ways.
And so for me, I also thinkabout you know, how do we move
from that controlling into that?
Curious is also to really spendsome time thinking about what
(15:53):
are the defaults that I'mbringing into this right?
I think that's why reflectionis so important is because we
can sort of surface, you know,oh, that was that thing, or
there's that pattern again of usdoing that thing again or
that's sort of how I show up, oh, that's interesting.
And to use it not necessarily asa tool to sort of shame or
berate or, you know, put usthrough our own, you know be our
(16:15):
own worst enemies in many ways,but to use that as a way to say
, huh, that's interesting, do Ilike that, does that serve me?
And you know when we can move, Ilike to call it, you know, when
we move from default to design,when we understand what that
default is, then we can moveinto choice, around what we want
to design, and that in ofitself, in my mind, is also a
(16:39):
curious act.
So how do we get curious aroundthose things so that we can
sort of identify how we might beshowing up?
What is the cost of that?
Is that serving us?
Many of the things that we haveserve us because they've gotten
us to where we are today andthat's not bad.
Is it going to serve us movingforward, and I think, in change?
That's the conversation we needto have with ourselves
sometimes as we think about howdo we lead in these very complex
(17:01):
change times that you know areconstantly changing.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, so maybe what are some more leadership
attributes or what leadersreally need to be looking at if
they're going to be leadingthrough complex change?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
to be looking at if they're going to be leading
through complex change.
So I'm happy to start.
There's a few that come to mind.
Megan Reese, out of the UK.
She talks about this idea ofspaciousness and how do we
create opportunities forspaciousness, and I think that
can be uncomfortable, especiallyif we're so used to defaulting
to this fix, command, control,take the reins, take charge.
I think that's a reallybeautiful one.
(17:41):
I think another sort of skill orI'm not sure if it's a trait,
but a skill that we can leaninto is and this I heard this
for the first time out ofMichael Bungay-Stainer's work
around how do we ask one morequestion?
So, instead of us feeling likewe need to jump in, right, we've
got the answer, I've got theadvice, you know, I've got this
(18:02):
how do we just, you know, maybepause and ask one more open
question and then you know, Ithink, not to put too fine a
point on the piece of curiosity,I think there is that you know
that space when we feelsomething, and not to dismiss it
or to override it, but to tojust sit with that maybe a few
seconds longer and get curiousas to what is that, as we head
(18:25):
into to these conversations,into these decisions, which you
know are hard.
They're very hard sometimes.
How about you, thomas?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah, I um.
Thanks, julieie.
I'm just sitting here bursting,uh, thinking about different
things, um, and I don't I don'twant to go back too far but to
keep it on point, I'm justthinking about, like something
very practical, that somebodywho's just stuck in those wear
patterns of life or those cycles, just to break the cycle, take
(18:56):
a different way home.
I live in the DC area andWashington DC's traffic I live
right outside of Washington DC.
Our traffic is horrendous, it'swell known.
But sometimes I will get off ofthe highway and I'll ride
through the countryside, whichis only.
(19:17):
It only takes maybe five moreminutes to get home, but the
amount of energy I have when Iget there and the type of energy
I have when I get there istotally different.
You're not clutching thesteering wheel, yeah, exactly,
and I'm able to move intocreative spaces, or you know
just, you know that spaciousness, I like that and I actually
(19:38):
wrote it down, yeah, so yeah,that would be one major thing.
Another thing is just mappingthings out.
I've found that it helps me, ithelps my clients.
Just to, you may not knoweverything, but it may help to
see what you don't know.
But if you don't get it out insome kind of way if you don't
express it and some people aremore talkers, other people are
(20:00):
more introspective and like towrite, but if you don't get it
out, it's hard to know what youdo know versus what you don't
know, what you have control overversus what you don't have
control over.
It helps to just map thosefactors and see where you are.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, so we've heard a lot about the things that that
leaders can be doing to helpwith complex change.
If I have a leader who's tuninginto this and they're not
recognizing, maybe, the harmfulside, what might some of that?
Harmful behaviors or, um, youknow how they're?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I can start.
This is one scenario.
That leader may look like theleader who's rushing in and
telling people what to do, butit could also look like a leader
who's convincing and persuadingpeople that this is the right
thing to do and not picking upon the resistance.
(21:05):
I always say, when it comes tochange, that resistance and
readiness are two sides of thesame coin.
And it really goes.
You know, it goes back to theperson that you're talking to,
or the group, or thestakeholders, you know.
Just looking at that and beinghonest about what's happening.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Julie, do you have anything to add there?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, I really appreciate that question because
I think it sort of flips it onits head.
You know all the things that wecan do, but maybe some of the
things that we're doing that wemight not even be paying
attention to, or the ways thatwe're showing up that are
creating more harm.
I think one of the things thatI think about, too in this space
(21:49):
is and we'll give you anexample of this, because I see
this a lot and it's somethingthat sort of irks me but then I
also appreciate why Like I canunderstand why people do this.
So I heard a story recentlyabout a senior leader who had
gotten some intel from anengagement survey that indicated
that there was a realdiscrepancy between how people
(22:11):
felt like they were beingsupported, included the level of
transparency and some prettybig changes.
And they decided that the bestsolution for this was going to
be that everybody, every leaderin the organization, was going
to need to meet with their teamfor 60 minutes a week and this
(22:32):
was going to be the solution foreverybody.
And I was sort of taken abackbecause I think what tends to
happen and I use this examplebecause it's so salient for me
right now but I think there'sthis real tendency sometimes to
try and find simple solutionsfor complex situations, and my
(22:54):
caution would be that if, as aleader, you're saying we're just
going to do this and it becomessort of like the blanket
statement that everybody needsto follow, that too can lead to
some pretty adverse outcomes,you know, at least from my lens
and my backgrounds inorganizational psychology.
It sort of erodes everythingthat takes so long to create
trust, engagement,organizational citizenship,
(23:16):
behaviors, you know the goingabove and beyond the community
building, and so my, I guesswhat I would love to just sort
of communicate is that if youfind yourself being like, well,
this is the answer, and notgoing and getting some
additional intel, or going outand finding people to sort of
either provide you know intelthat this works or that this
(23:37):
makes sense, or, you know, maybewe need to think about some
other things.
No-transcript, we sort ofexpand that out to think a
(24:19):
little bit more broadly so thatwe can.
Yes, it might take a little bitmore time on the upfront, but
how do we go slow to go fast sothat we can?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
yes, it might take a little bit more time on the
upfront, but how do we go slowto go fast, so that we can
create that commitment long termand to see the things that we
ultimately want fororganizations or people and
ourselves as leaders, and evenyou know, I find it interesting
because, sure, we can meet withour team for an hour a week and
(24:46):
I'm all four teams gettingtogether, you know, but what is
happening within that hour andis the leader able to coach the
team?
So there's so many things thatare within that.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
So, like you said, you know being compliant, okay,
well, I'm going to meet with myteam, because I've been told
this is what we're doing, butthen it has to go beyond that,
(25:27):
yeah, yeah.
And if I could add this, Ithink the 60 minutes, or you
know a period of time, in theright circumstances could be
helpful.
But when change is upon you,when it's knocking down your
door, I don't know that that'shelpful.
And so it brings me to my point.
It helps to start earlier.
When it comes to change, changeForesight is best elicited, is
(25:52):
best drawn out early.
Those early warning signals outon the horizon that are a year
off, two years off, evensometimes three months off, can
make a big difference.
But if we're talking about weneed to change yesterday, then
that means foresight is notdoing its job.
And if it's the leader's job toelicit the foresight, I'll
leave it up to your imaginationwhat's happening and what's not
(26:14):
happening.
As far as the leader's role isconcerned and I'm not blaming
the leader, I'm saying that thisis imperative in this
environment that leaders addthat you know just drawing the
foresight out of the team,because it's impossible for one
person to know everything and tosee everything that's going on.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And looking at what are those external factors?
Right, it's not just aboutwhat's internal, like you said.
Looking out at the horizon forsure.
Yeah, what else, before weclose, would be important for
you to to communicate?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
When it comes to sense-making, julie, you, you
mentioned sense-making earlierand I want to bring it full
circle, because it is at theearly stages of change.
It's almost impossible to helppeople make sense of something
you don't yet understand.
But when leaders go through,you know, do the work to, you
(27:12):
know, just pick up on what'sgoing on, the people, they, and
you'd be surprised, you know, ifyou're a first-time leader.
I tell first-time leaders thishow much people are just
scanning the horizon picking upon what's going on reading the
not newspaper?
Well, what's going on readingthe newspaper?
Well, some people do still readthe newspaper.
More people are reading what'sgoing on online.
But you know all thisinformation, we're intaking
(27:33):
information every day and so theanswers are in the room.
The leader, the leader's job isreally to pick up on that
collective wisdom.
The wisdom is there.
It's just a matter of pullingit out and figuring out what to
do with it.
And then you know that adds thegranularity to the picture.
You know the change vision isout in front.
(27:54):
That adds the granularity andthen a leader can more easily
help people to make sense ofwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And I would add to that too is, you know, once you
have spent time gathering thatwisdom in the room, it's giving
yourself and others the grace tosay we're going to try, and
it's not going to be perfect,and you know, this commitment
that we're going to make, we'regoing to come back in three
months and we're going to seedid that get us where we wanted
to be?
I often find that leaders havereally good intentions and then
(28:27):
it's like we're going to do thisand then it falls off when it
comes to the impact.
And there's it's.
I think it's a function of alot of things, but you know, at
least in my world, it's justlike the next thing, the next
thing we got to keep moving and,and so there's never really any
time to sort of spendunderstanding what was the
impact.
(28:47):
The intention is usually prettygood, right, we want to keep
our businesses moving, we wantto keep our people good, we want
to be okay, Like we.
Like there's good intention,and then the impact is where it
falls off.
And so I think, in that sort ofsense, making at the beginning
it's to give you know, yourselfand everybody else, the
permission to say we're going totry this, and there are going
(29:07):
to be things that are great,that we love.
There are going to be thingsthat don't work.
It's not a reflection onwhether it was the right or the
wrong, or the good or the bad,it's more what are we learning?
Okay, that didn't work, Cool.
Now what else can we try?
Because our intention is to doX Right?
(29:34):
I'll give you an example.
Last summer, as part of anopportunity to really connect
the OD work that we do into ourlarger HR function, I sent out
an email every Monday and I waslike here's what's happening in
organizational development,here's the upcoming courses,
here's the upcoming things thatyou can participate in.
We said, you know, we gaveterrible jokes and sent terrible
memes just as a way to sort ofhave some fun.
(29:54):
And so we did that all summer.
We started in June and we endedin August and we went out in
September because we had heardnothing all summer.
There was not a single reply,not a single mention of this.
There was nothing.
It was just radio silence.
So we went out in September andasked some people what did you
think about it?
Did you like it?
And predominantly, people cameback and said it was nice, but
(30:17):
that was all the feedback we got, and at that point I decided OK
, what did we learn?
Well, we learned that it'sreally important to be
communicating out what we'redoing in this space.
So people are aware you knowit's really important.
You know, I learned a reallyvaluable lesson about
consistency, even when there isno feedback, because that's, you
know, a good practice for us tobe building.
Was it the right way to beconnecting with our broader HR
(30:39):
team?
No, everybody's busy.
It was another email.
People were feeling like, if Iget to it, that's great.
There were some people who wereeven feeling guilty that they
didn't get to it.
They were filing it away.
But that's okay, we learned.
So we stopped that and we'vemoved on to other ways of
experimenting around.
What can we do to communicateand create a bigger and more
cohesive HR team?
(30:59):
That's all learning, and so Iguess what I would offer in this
space is then make and then tryand come at it with just sort
of this I think Adam Grant talksabout it as sort of like the
mindset of a scientist Like whatcan we learn?
What's our hypothesis, what canwe take away from this, what
can we move into our nextexperiment?
(31:20):
And I think that's so valuablein this space of complex change,
because there is no one rightway, there's no step A, phase
two.
You know there's nothing that'slinear about this.
So how do we create experiments, create opportunities to
reflect and learn and thenintegrate what works and to move
on and beyond what is holdingus back or costing us too much
(31:41):
in that moment?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
us too much in that moment.
So when I hear you talkingabout these wonderful ways that
a leader can show up and be fortheir people, for me it's like
the anxiety goes down.
You know, I could just, I couldjust feel.
You know, if this was you andyou're talking to your team, if
they had anxiety, it would becoming down.
You know all those emotionsthat they have because this has
changed.
I feel that they would be putto rest more and then people are
(32:12):
able to be thinking clearerabout what the next step is or,
like you said, what the learningis and things like that.
But that takes a leader who iscurious and who is intent on
learning about not just thechange effort but their people
(32:33):
and establishing thoserelationships.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, one of the things that I hear myself saying
often right now is two thingscan be true we can still feel
anxious about change and we canfind a way forward.
Yes, we still might know whatthe we don't know what's coming
tomorrow, and we can still makea plan.
And you know, in the space ofparadox which really that is the
only way to move through aparadox is acceptance, and so
(32:58):
when we can hold two things ormore, there's often more things
that are true at the same time.
I think it does create anopportunity for people to feel
like they don't need to be happyabout it or sad about it, or
they can, they can just be, andthen we can figure out a way
forward.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Okay, you two, I'd love to give you the last word.
That's been a terrificconversation on complex change
and what that looks like, andhow leaders can show up and, as
you said, just be.
So what say you, thomas?
We'll start with you and thenwe'll go to Julie for the last
word as well.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Thank you, dr Whalen.
One thing that is popping upfor me to tell leaders is to be
kind to yourself, and that isadvice I've received from you,
dr Whelan, and it has not onlychanged my life, my business,
but it's also changed my family,and I tell my daughters you
know what, in being hard onyourself, also be kind to
(33:55):
yourself.
So that comes back to theparadox.
You know, two things can betrue.
Thank you, julie.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yes, yes, yeah, and I think that's such a beautiful
(34:32):
segue to you know, it can bereally frustrating sometimes.
I think, to try and hold thatspace for ourselves as leaders
and me in this change, and thento also hold that space for me
leading a team in this space,and so be kind to yourself, give
yourself the opportunity tolearn and not to get it right
and to try on vulnerability alittle bit more.
(34:55):
I really think and believe, andhave seen in my own leadership
practice, that the more youinvite people in to what's going
on within limits I understandthat there's some things that
are confidential but the morethat you can bring people in to
what's happening with you andwhat you're thinking about and
what you're, you know, wantingto experiment with, what you
need some more information on, Ithink the more people are going
(35:15):
to rally to try and make ithappen, and the research that
I've come across at least showsthat the more that a leader is
in tune with their team and thegreater trust that there is in
those relationship spaces, themore willing a team member is
going to follow a leader, evenif they don't have all the
information.
And so you know, at the end ofthe day.
We're all humans trying to havea human experience in very
(35:36):
human and complex ways.
So be kind to yourself, extendsome compassion to yourself and
others.
Remember that this is hard andthat there are no right answers.
And you're doing great.
You're doing great.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
And you're doing great.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you so much for joining me on Conversations,
julie and Dr Thomas Anderson II.
Go ahead and we can make surethat people have your LinkedIn.
I think we have that.
We'll put that in the shownotes if people want to connect
with you there.
I'm looking forward to seeingwhat you two do in the future
around this and until next time,you two keep doing great things
(36:15):
and we'll see you soon, thankyou Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Thank you.
Well, welcome to Conversations where today we are
going to be talking aboutcomplex change and how leaders
can hold that complexity throughthe lens of curiosity as a way
of being.
Today we welcome in JulieJenkins and returning guest Dr
Thomas Anderson II.
Both are experts in their fieldof organizational development
and change.
(00:20):
It's good to see you both,welcome.
Welcome, how are you both todayand where are you coming from?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So I'll get us started.
Good morning In my part of theworld.
I am coming in from Calgary,Alberta, Canada.
It's so wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yes, I am coming from Germantown, Maryland, and thank
you for having me as well.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Absolutely, absolutely Well.
We're going to be talking aboutcomplex change and the leader's
role and the work that you'redoing.
I would first love for you totell our listeners how you met.
Who'd like to?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
tackle that.
Well, since it was since Iinitiated it, I will tackle that
.
I reached out to Julie afterhaving read her master's thesis
on coaching cultures and it wassuch a great read.
It was so full of insights thatyou know I reached out, as I do
(01:23):
, dr Whelan, as you well know.
I put the cold emails in.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know I reached out, as I do, dr Whalen, as you
well know with the cold emailsand you know, julie responded
and rest is history and I lovehow it's okay to do that.
When you and I think morepeople need to do that Like if
you're reading something onLinkedIn or wherever you, you
know, see something that you'relike, wow, that is exciting and
(01:47):
I'm really interested in aboutthat People, most people would
find that that's kind of fun.
Was it fun for you?
Was it interesting, julie?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
It was really flattering, honestly, I thought,
because going into a master'sthesis, I was told nobody's
going to read this and you'regoing to find maybe one or two
people who find this at allinteresting for their scope of
work.
And then so to get an emailfrom Thomas to be like, hey, I
saw this and I actually read it,and can we meet, I was like, oh
my goodness, I was so flattered, I thought that was amazing and
(02:18):
it's been such a wonderfulconnection.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, I'm looking forward to the work that I know
that the two of you are going tobe bringing forward, and I'd
love to.
We're going to be talking aboutcomplex change in the leader's
role, but I would first like isthere a difference between we
hear about, you know, withinorganizations?
There listeners identify whatcomplex change may be and how
(02:48):
it's different than just aregular change effort.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I often think about change onsort of a spectrum between
transactional, transformationaland that's how I really thought
about it sort of my whole career.
You know the transactionalbeing very straightforward
there's a stepwise process tofollow things, transformational
sort of being on that side as wedon't really know where we're
going.
Sometimes, but we know where weare right now isn't where we
(03:15):
need to be or where we want tobe, and so then how do we move
in something that feels morealigned to our vision, our
strategy, our outcomes, ourclients, our partners?
Complex change in my mind sortof takes that a little bit
further, in the sense thatcomplexity means that there's so
many things happening all atthe same time that there's no
way to sort of sense make, andso all the time we're trying to
(03:37):
figure out what's the bestdecision, where do we go next,
and really only in retrospectcan we see if the decisions that
we made in real time got us tothe outcomes that we were
looking for.
And so often that I find that,at least in the spaces that I
sit I work in education, highered that there's this real need
(03:57):
to start to think of things inthe change space is quite linear
.
You know what's step one, steptwo, step three, Complex change
sort of turns that on its headbecause there is no steps.
There know what's step one,step two, step three, Complex
change sort of turns that on itshead because there is no steps.
There is no right way, there'sno.
This is the next thing that wedo.
There's only like can we makesense of what's happening in the
environment and make a bestguess or an estimate, and then
really spend some time learning.
(04:17):
And it's through thatcomplexity that we have to sense
, make, go out into ourenvironment and then come back
and make it as best and educatedguess as we can as to around
what is our next step.
But we're never going to knowuntil we sort of sit and look in
the rearview mirror and say, ohyeah, you know that that was
the thing that really helpedmove us forward.
Or oh gosh, that was a lot oflearning.
That didn't feel really good,but here's what we can do
(04:40):
because of that moving forward.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Thank you for that, Dr Anderson.
Do you want to add anything tothat?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
No, I think that was a very articulate response, I
think the only.
Well then, yes, the only thingthat I would add and it's not an
addition, it's moreunderscoring the fact that
answers, a lot of answers, arenot available in complex change.
You can't always understand orarticulate why when you go into
it, but maybe it's a gut feeling.
But, yes, all of that, all ofwhat Julie said.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Excellent and how important for leaders to look
back, or the team to look back,the organization to look back
and see what was important forus to learn from that complex
change, I think is crucial andmany times it's a misstep, for
(05:37):
leaders to sit in that, yes.
Well, julie, you wrote a poston LinkedIn pondering what is
the role of leadership wheneveryone is holding their breath
waiting for the next wave ofchange.
I'd love to hear what promptedthis for you.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yes, so.
So I work in organizationaldevelopment, like I said, in
higher education and within theCanadian post-secondary higher
ed space.
The federal government camedown last summer and made some
pretty big, sweeping changes tointernational students and their
ability to study in Canada, andthese changes have had
(06:18):
far-reaching implications acrossall provinces of the country.
And so, working in this space,what I have continually seen
since last summer is like justeverybody waiting right.
It's like we're going to waitfor the next set of updates from
the government, we're going towait for the next set of
decisions by our senior leaders,we're going to wait for what
(06:39):
you know the province decides todo, you know similar to states
in the United States, like whatis our province going to do in
response to what the federalgovernment has done?
And so every conversation thatI was going into, it just felt
like well, when things getstable, when the next wave of
change comes, when we get somemore information, and it felt
like that we were justconstantly waiting for this next
something, whatever thatsomething was, to feel like we
(07:00):
could move forward.
And yet I just observed thateverybody was holding their
breath and it was like we'rejust we're just holding, waiting
, and in change.
That doesn't really happen alltoo well, you know, because we,
I don't think stability is athing anymore.
I think that there's a realshift that we're going to have
(07:21):
to start contemplating aroundinstead of trying to figure out
how do we get to that nextstable place, what can we do in
the here and now, and what arethose skills or those ways that
leaders can show up?
That provides a sense ofstability in this moment, but
doesn't necessarily mean thatwe're waiting for the next thing
.
And so what prompted this postwas just me observing in my
(07:44):
environment the conversations Iwas having with leaders around,
everybody just be like white,knuckling it, like we're almost
there, and then the next emailwould land or the next news
update would come, andeverybody's like, oh God, like.
And so it was just like theperpetual, like riding these,
like very tumultuous waves, andit's, you know, it begs the
question, at least in my mindwhat else can we do if we sort
(08:07):
of accept that this is not goingto change and that that
stability is not maybe somethingthat is going to come in the
same ways that we've seen thatprior?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, and Thomas, when I think about leaders, many
times instinctively they'refixers or problem solvers.
Many times, instinctivelythey're fixers or problem
solvers.
So maybe when you think aboutthat, how important is it Like
what, what, what Julie wassaying with the communication
with your people when you'regoing through complex change?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, and when Julie brought up waiting, I thought
and I made a little note hereabout active waiting and
inactive wait.
And holding our breath is moreof a type of inactive waiting,
and I think the role of theleader would be to, number one,
detect that, if not just withtheir people and this is central
(08:59):
to our work with themselves,with that self-awareness piece,
to realize that people areholding their breath.
Am I holding mine too, you know, am I anxious?
What is going on for me?
But then with the, so that'sthe you know inactivity.
You know I don't know what'sgoing to happen, things are
uncertain, but then once youbreathe out what happens, and
(09:22):
for a leader, I think it can bepowerful.
You know what?
The words of Warner Burke.
He said a leader's role is toelicit the foresight that is in
the organization, is within theteam, and so you can, you know,
a leader can move from theinactive waiting and even move
their people from the inactivewaiting to that activity of.
(09:43):
Okay, let me shift my role alittle bit.
Maybe I don't have control, butmaybe I don't have control of
what's going on on the outside.
What do I have control overthat's going on on the inside?
And then the extension to myteam.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And it sounds like a wonderful coaching opportunity
for both individuals and teams.
What say you?
Yes, absolutely.
Helping, helping the individualleader, like you said.
You know, actually question andhave that self-awareness and
(10:19):
for them to then get curiousabout if I'm feeling this way
and if I'm exhibiting this, thenwhat is my team feeling and
exhibiting?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, yeah, I recently heard the expression
that leaders create the weatherand I loved this idea of you
know how we're showing up, whatwe're doing, what we're not
doing.
You know, are we waiting andhow are we waiting?
Is it active waiting?
(10:51):
Is it not Like that isprojected onto our teams in some
ways?
And so, you know, recognizingthat in ourselves, I think
really is the first step ingetting curious about that.
Like, oh gosh, like I feel thatI feel that tension in my chest
, I feel like my stomach noddingout, like oh, I got to go into
this next meeting and I don'tknow how I feel about.
(11:11):
Like that curiosity and thatplace of starting to sort of
make sense of that is a reallybeautiful place to start before
we even get into our teams,because our teams are going to
pick up on that.
You know what's said, what's notsaid, how we show up.
You know, are we hurried?
Are we avoiding questions?
Like, are we leaning in?
(11:32):
Are we inviting dissent, likeall of those things I think
really set the tone for how wecan show up as leaders in these
complex spaces and it reallylike I so appreciate what you
said, thomas too around it.
It starts with us, it comesback to us and sort of starting
with our own sense of what'sgoing on here.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
before then I go out there yes, yeah, and so maybe to
continue on that, the leader'sstyle, like, how is the leader's
style?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
going to impact, maybe not necessarily the it.
Within the bounds of theframework that we have emerging
here, we have a controllingstyle and we have a curious
style, just to simplify it alittle bit and so the
controlling style is dictating,it's telling people what to do.
(12:47):
A curious style is sitting withthe discomfort of not knowing,
the discomfort of not knowing.
The curious style is also,maybe, journaling about some
things that could cause anxiety,some things that are, you know,
making knots in their stomach,or you know, a lot of times
(13:11):
these things happen at twoo'clock in the morning and the
leader's up, and at two o'clockin the morning and the leader's
up.
So that's the best time tofigure out what has me awake
when the rest of my neighborhoodis sleeping and for my
neighborhood, I can look around.
Sometimes, you know, at twoo'clock in the morning maybe
there are one or two lights on.
That's just the entrepreneuriallife or the life of a leader,
(13:35):
you know.
But in the quiet moments,what's going on with me?
And you know, so that allimpacts the style.
You know I was on a call with aconsultant from New Zealand the
other day and he was telling meabout you know, I'm getting his
(13:55):
ideas about this coaching toolthat I've come up with and I've
been using it for 20 years, andyou know, I'm just getting out
there.
He said.
I asked him, I said, well, whowould this not work well for?
And he told me, well, probablythe higher-up lawyer, the person
who has it all together, theperson who has all their steps.
So for me, you know, and not to, you know, put a type on it,
(14:16):
but just the person, you know, Ithink of a type, A person who's
driven, who always has theanswers, who always is expected
to have the answers.
You know, that person is goingto show up differently and it
may be harder for them to adopta different style altogether,
style altogether.
But there are some things thatcan be done, like, you know,
just open questioning, you know,just asking people questions
(14:42):
that don't have a yes or noanswer.
That can bridge the gap betweenthat controlling style and that
curious style.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, and I'd add to that too, that we all sort of
have these default spaces thathave served us in some ways.
We've, you know, we come intoleadership positions and we
bring with us sort of our liferight, like there's life behind
us.
You know, even if I think aboutmy own leadership journey, you
(15:10):
know, there have been thoseexperiences where I, you know, I
still think about them todayand they happened 20 years ago
and I say, under nocircumstances am I going to do
that thing again.
And so then I flip to the otherside and then there's things
where I'm like, oh gosh, thatwas so good.
I, I'm going to do that againbecause I liked it.
But at some point, whether it'sgood or bad or it adds or
(15:33):
detracts it, there's also sortof this idea of default.
So we're coming in into thesedefault spaces and we might not
even know that we're defaultingin some ways.
And so for me, I also thinkabout you know, how do we move
from that controlling into that?
Curious is also to really spendsome time thinking about what
(15:53):
are the defaults that I'mbringing into this right?
I think that's why reflectionis so important is because we
can sort of surface, you know,oh, that was that thing, or
there's that pattern again of usdoing that thing again or
that's sort of how I show up, oh, that's interesting.
And to use it not necessarily asa tool to sort of shame or
berate or, you know, put usthrough our own, you know be our
(16:15):
own worst enemies in many ways,but to use that as a way to say
, huh, that's interesting, do Ilike that, does that serve me?
And you know when we can move, Ilike to call it, you know, when
we move from default to design,when we understand what that
default is, then we can moveinto choice, around what we want
to design, and that in ofitself, in my mind, is also a
(16:39):
curious act.
So how do we get curious aroundthose things so that we can
sort of identify how we might beshowing up?
What is the cost of that?
Is that serving us?
Many of the things that we haveserve us because they've gotten
us to where we are today andthat's not bad.
Is it going to serve us movingforward, and I think, in change?
That's the conversation we needto have with ourselves
sometimes as we think about howdo we lead in these very complex
(17:01):
change times that you know areconstantly changing.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, so maybe what are some more leadership
attributes or what leadersreally need to be looking at if
they're going to be leadingthrough complex change?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
to be looking at if they're going to be leading
through complex change.
So I'm happy to start.
There's a few that come to mind.
Megan Reese, out of the UK.
She talks about this idea ofspaciousness and how do we
create opportunities forspaciousness, and I think that
can be uncomfortable, especiallyif we're so used to defaulting
to this fix, command, control,take the reins, take charge.
I think that's a reallybeautiful one.
(17:41):
I think another sort of skill orI'm not sure if it's a trait,
but a skill that we can leaninto is and this I heard this
for the first time out ofMichael Bungay-Stainer's work
around how do we ask one morequestion?
So, instead of us feeling likewe need to jump in, right, we've
got the answer, I've got theadvice, you know, I've got this
(18:02):
how do we just, you know, maybepause and ask one more open
question and then you know, Ithink, not to put too fine a
point on the piece of curiosity,I think there is that you know
that space when we feelsomething, and not to dismiss it
or to override it, but to tojust sit with that maybe a few
seconds longer and get curiousas to what is that, as we head
(18:25):
into to these conversations,into these decisions, which you
know are hard.
They're very hard sometimes.
How about you, thomas?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah, I um.
Thanks, julieie.
I'm just sitting here bursting,uh, thinking about different
things, um, and I don't I don'twant to go back too far but to
keep it on point, I'm justthinking about, like something
very practical, that somebodywho's just stuck in those wear
patterns of life or those cycles, just to break the cycle, take
(18:56):
a different way home.
I live in the DC area andWashington DC's traffic I live
right outside of Washington DC.
Our traffic is horrendous, it'swell known.
But sometimes I will get off ofthe highway and I'll ride
through the countryside, whichis only.
(19:17):
It only takes maybe five moreminutes to get home, but the
amount of energy I have when Iget there and the type of energy
I have when I get there istotally different.
You're not clutching thesteering wheel, yeah, exactly,
and I'm able to move intocreative spaces, or you know
just, you know that spaciousness, I like that and I actually
(19:38):
wrote it down, yeah, so yeah,that would be one major thing.
Another thing is just mappingthings out.
I've found that it helps me, ithelps my clients.
Just to, you may not knoweverything, but it may help to
see what you don't know.
But if you don't get it out insome kind of way if you don't
express it and some people aremore talkers, other people are
(20:00):
more introspective and like towrite, but if you don't get it
out, it's hard to know what youdo know versus what you don't
know, what you have control overversus what you don't have
control over.
It helps to just map thosefactors and see where you are.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yeah, so we've heard a lot about the things that that
leaders can be doing to helpwith complex change.
If I have a leader who's tuninginto this and they're not
recognizing, maybe, the harmfulside, what might some of that?
Harmful behaviors or, um, youknow how they're?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I can start.
This is one scenario.
That leader may look like theleader who's rushing in and
telling people what to do, butit could also look like a leader
who's convincing and persuadingpeople that this is the right
thing to do and not picking upon the resistance.
(21:05):
I always say, when it comes tochange, that resistance and
readiness are two sides of thesame coin.
And it really goes.
You know, it goes back to theperson that you're talking to,
or the group, or thestakeholders, you know.
Just looking at that and beinghonest about what's happening.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Julie, do you have anything to add there?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, I really appreciate that question because
I think it sort of flips it onits head.
You know all the things that wecan do, but maybe some of the
things that we're doing that wemight not even be paying
attention to, or the ways thatwe're showing up that are
creating more harm.
I think one of the things thatI think about, too in this space
(21:49):
is and we'll give you anexample of this, because I see
this a lot and it's somethingthat sort of irks me but then I
also appreciate why Like I canunderstand why people do this.
So I heard a story recentlyabout a senior leader who had
gotten some intel from anengagement survey that indicated
that there was a realdiscrepancy between how people
(22:11):
felt like they were beingsupported, included the level of
transparency and some prettybig changes.
And they decided that the bestsolution for this was going to
be that everybody, every leaderin the organization, was going
to need to meet with their teamfor 60 minutes a week and this
(22:32):
was going to be the solution foreverybody.
And I was sort of taken abackbecause I think what tends to
happen and I use this examplebecause it's so salient for me
right now but I think there'sthis real tendency sometimes to
try and find simple solutionsfor complex situations, and my
(22:54):
caution would be that if, as aleader, you're saying we're just
going to do this and it becomessort of like the blanket
statement that everybody needsto follow, that too can lead to
some pretty adverse outcomes,you know, at least from my lens
and my backgrounds inorganizational psychology.
It sort of erodes everythingthat takes so long to create
trust, engagement,organizational citizenship,
(23:16):
behaviors, you know the goingabove and beyond the community
building, and so my, I guesswhat I would love to just sort
of communicate is that if youfind yourself being like, well,
this is the answer, and notgoing and getting some
additional intel, or going outand finding people to sort of
either provide you know intelthat this works or that this
(23:37):
makes sense, or, you know, maybewe need to think about some
other things.
No-transcript, we sort ofexpand that out to think a
(24:19):
little bit more broadly so thatwe can.
Yes, it might take a little bitmore time on the upfront, but
how do we go slow to go fast sothat we can?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
yes, it might take a little bit more time on the
upfront, but how do we go slowto go fast, so that we can
create that commitment long termand to see the things that we
ultimately want fororganizations or people and
ourselves as leaders, and evenyou know, I find it interesting
because, sure, we can meet withour team for an hour a week and
(24:46):
I'm all four teams gettingtogether, you know, but what is
happening within that hour andis the leader able to coach the
team?
So there's so many things thatare within that.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
So, like you said, you know being compliant, okay,
well, I'm going to meet with myteam, because I've been told
this is what we're doing, butthen it has to go beyond that,
(25:27):
yeah, yeah.
And if I could add this, Ithink the 60 minutes, or you
know a period of time, in theright circumstances could be
helpful.
But when change is upon you,when it's knocking down your
door, I don't know that that'shelpful.
And so it brings me to my point.
It helps to start earlier.
When it comes to change, changeForesight is best elicited, is
(25:52):
best drawn out early.
Those early warning signals outon the horizon that are a year
off, two years off, evensometimes three months off, can
make a big difference.
But if we're talking about weneed to change yesterday, then
that means foresight is notdoing its job.
And if it's the leader's job toelicit the foresight, I'll
leave it up to your imaginationwhat's happening and what's not
(26:14):
happening.
As far as the leader's role isconcerned and I'm not blaming
the leader, I'm saying that thisis imperative in this
environment that leaders addthat you know just drawing the
foresight out of the team,because it's impossible for one
person to know everything and tosee everything that's going on.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
And looking at what are those external factors?
Right, it's not just aboutwhat's internal, like you said.
Looking out at the horizon forsure.
Yeah, what else, before weclose, would be important for
you to to communicate?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
When it comes to sense-making, julie, you, you
mentioned sense-making earlierand I want to bring it full
circle, because it is at theearly stages of change.
It's almost impossible to helppeople make sense of something
you don't yet understand.
But when leaders go through,you know, do the work to, you
(27:12):
know, just pick up on what'sgoing on, the people, they, and
you'd be surprised, you know, ifyou're a first-time leader.
I tell first-time leaders thishow much people are just
scanning the horizon picking upon what's going on reading the
not newspaper?
Well, what's going on readingthe newspaper?
Well, some people do still readthe newspaper.
More people are reading what'sgoing on online.
But you know all thisinformation, we're intaking
(27:33):
information every day and so theanswers are in the room.
The leader, the leader's job isreally to pick up on that
collective wisdom.
The wisdom is there.
It's just a matter of pullingit out and figuring out what to
do with it.
And then you know that adds thegranularity to the picture.
You know the change vision isout in front.
(27:54):
That adds the granularity andthen a leader can more easily
help people to make sense ofwhat's going on.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
And I would add to that too is, you know, once you
have spent time gathering thatwisdom in the room, it's giving
yourself and others the grace tosay we're going to try, and
it's not going to be perfect,and you know, this commitment
that we're going to make, we'regoing to come back in three
months and we're going to seedid that get us where we wanted
to be?
I often find that leaders havereally good intentions and then
(28:27):
it's like we're going to do thisand then it falls off when it
comes to the impact.
And there's it's.
I think it's a function of alot of things, but you know, at
least in my world, it's justlike the next thing, the next
thing we got to keep moving and,and so there's never really any
time to sort of spendunderstanding what was the
impact.
(28:47):
The intention is usually prettygood, right, we want to keep
our businesses moving, we wantto keep our people good, we want
to be okay, Like we.
Like there's good intention,and then the impact is where it
falls off.
And so I think, in that sort ofsense, making at the beginning
it's to give you know, yourselfand everybody else, the
permission to say we're going totry this, and there are going
(29:07):
to be things that are great,that we love.
There are going to be thingsthat don't work.
It's not a reflection onwhether it was the right or the
wrong, or the good or the bad,it's more what are we learning?
Okay, that didn't work, Cool.
Now what else can we try?
Because our intention is to doX Right?
(29:34):
I'll give you an example.
Last summer, as part of anopportunity to really connect
the OD work that we do into ourlarger HR function, I sent out
an email every Monday and I waslike here's what's happening in
organizational development,here's the upcoming courses,
here's the upcoming things thatyou can participate in.
We said, you know, we gaveterrible jokes and sent terrible
memes just as a way to sort ofhave some fun.
(29:54):
And so we did that all summer.
We started in June and we endedin August and we went out in
September because we had heardnothing all summer.
There was not a single reply,not a single mention of this.
There was nothing.
It was just radio silence.
So we went out in September andasked some people what did you
think about it?
Did you like it?
And predominantly, people cameback and said it was nice, but
(30:17):
that was all the feedback we got, and at that point I decided OK
, what did we learn?
Well, we learned that it'sreally important to be
communicating out what we'redoing in this space.
So people are aware you knowit's really important.
You know, I learned a reallyvaluable lesson about
consistency, even when there isno feedback, because that's, you
know, a good practice for us tobe building.
Was it the right way to beconnecting with our broader HR
(30:39):
team?
No, everybody's busy.
It was another email.
People were feeling like, if Iget to it, that's great.
There were some people who wereeven feeling guilty that they
didn't get to it.
They were filing it away.
But that's okay, we learned.
So we stopped that and we'vemoved on to other ways of
experimenting around.
What can we do to communicateand create a bigger and more
cohesive HR team?
(30:59):
That's all learning, and so Iguess what I would offer in this
space is then make and then tryand come at it with just sort
of this I think Adam Grant talksabout it as sort of like the
mindset of a scientist Like whatcan we learn?
What's our hypothesis, what canwe take away from this, what
can we move into our nextexperiment?
(31:20):
And I think that's so valuablein this space of complex change,
because there is no one rightway, there's no step A, phase
two.
You know there's nothing that'slinear about this.
So how do we create experiments, create opportunities to
reflect and learn and thenintegrate what works and to move
on and beyond what is holdingus back or costing us too much
(31:41):
in that moment?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
us too much in that moment.
So when I hear you talkingabout these wonderful ways that
a leader can show up and be fortheir people, for me it's like
the anxiety goes down.
You know, I could just, I couldjust feel.
You know, if this was you andyou're talking to your team, if
they had anxiety, it would becoming down.
You know all those emotionsthat they have because this has
changed.
I feel that they would be putto rest more and then people are
(32:12):
able to be thinking clearerabout what the next step is or,
like you said, what the learningis and things like that.
But that takes a leader who iscurious and who is intent on
learning about not just thechange effort but their people
(32:33):
and establishing thoserelationships.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yeah, one of the things that I hear myself saying
often right now is two thingscan be true we can still feel
anxious about change and we canfind a way forward.
Yes, we still might know whatthe we don't know what's coming
tomorrow, and we can still makea plan.
And you know, in the space ofparadox which really that is the
only way to move through aparadox is acceptance, and so
(32:58):
when we can hold two things ormore, there's often more things
that are true at the same time.
I think it does create anopportunity for people to feel
like they don't need to be happyabout it or sad about it, or
they can, they can just be, andthen we can figure out a way
forward.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Okay, you two, I'd love to give you the last word.
That's been a terrificconversation on complex change
and what that looks like, andhow leaders can show up and, as
you said, just be.
So what say you, thomas?
We'll start with you and thenwe'll go to Julie for the last
word as well.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Thank you, dr Whalen.
One thing that is popping upfor me to tell leaders is to be
kind to yourself, and that isadvice I've received from you,
dr Whelan, and it has not onlychanged my life, my business,
but it's also changed my family,and I tell my daughters you
know what, in being hard onyourself, also be kind to
(33:55):
yourself.
So that comes back to theparadox.
You know, two things can betrue.
Thank you, julie.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yes, yes, yeah, and I think that's such a beautiful
(34:32):
segue to you know, it can bereally frustrating sometimes.
I think, to try and hold thatspace for ourselves as leaders
and me in this change, and thento also hold that space for me
leading a team in this space,and so be kind to yourself, give
yourself the opportunity tolearn and not to get it right
and to try on vulnerability alittle bit more.
(34:55):
I really think and believe, andhave seen in my own leadership
practice, that the more youinvite people in to what's going
on within limits I understandthat there's some things that
are confidential but the morethat you can bring people in to
what's happening with you andwhat you're thinking about and
what you're, you know, wantingto experiment with, what you
need some more information on, Ithink the more people are going
(35:15):
to rally to try and make ithappen, and the research that
I've come across at least showsthat the more that a leader is
in tune with their team and thegreater trust that there is in
those relationship spaces, themore willing a team member is
going to follow a leader, evenif they don't have all the
information.
And so you know, at the end ofthe day.
We're all humans trying to havea human experience in very
(35:36):
human and complex ways.
So be kind to yourself, extendsome compassion to yourself and
others.
Remember that this is hard andthat there are no right answers.
And you're doing great.
You're doing great.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
And you're doing great.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you so much for joining me on Conversations,
julie and Dr Thomas Anderson II.
Go ahead and we can make surethat people have your LinkedIn.
I think we have that.
We'll put that in the shownotes if people want to connect
with you there.
I'm looking forward to seeingwhat you two do in the future
around this and until next time,you two keep doing great things
(36:15):
and we'll see you soon, thankyou Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Thank you.
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