November 21, 2025 • 41 mins
We explore how leadership goes far beyond titles, tracing Father Daniel’s mission work and his new book that measures Jesus against top secular models. Practical steps emerge for building aligned teams, treating people with dignity, and making daily prayer a leader’s edge.
• leadership as influence rooted in dignity and mission
• lessons from global missionary work and local impact
• Jesus measured against leading secular frameworks
• the power of small-team formation and delegation
• culture fit, onboarding, and retention through value
• transformation over performance and ego
• aligned diversity versus misaligned goals
• daily prayer as a practical tool for decisions
• simple frameworks for reflection and action
You can find Father Daniels book on Amazon.com and then look for Leader Like No Other. You can also find it with a slightly discounted price @ https://www.regnumchristi.com/en/leader-like-no-other-what-secular-leadership-models-reveal-about-jesus/
Learn more about Father Brandenburg @ https://www.frdanielbrandenburg.com/
BelemLeaders–Your organization's trusted partner for leader and team development. Visit our website to connect: belemleaders.org or book a discovery call today! belem.as.me/discovery
Until next time, keep doing great things!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
All right.
Well, welcome to Conversations,where today we are sitting down
with Father Daniel Brandenburg.
Did I say that correctly?
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
You got it right.
All right.
Excellent.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
So how are you today?
Because typically, and I'll I'lljust pause here.
Typically, I just I read a bio,I ask how you're doing.
But I would love for you to justsay to the audience, what's
important for them to know aboutyou?
Because you have got a lot ofeducation, you've held a lot of
(00:33):
different roles.
You have had what some peoplewould call a health scare in
their lifetime.
So I would just love for youmaybe just to give us a who are
you, father?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Gosh, I think most importantly, I am a follower of
Jesus Christ.
At the end of the day, that'sit.
You know, we all we will allstand before the judgment seat
of God.
And the most important thing isthat we love God and we did all
that we could with the you knowthe limited time and abilities
that God has given us.
And hopefully I've been a goodson of the Lord, a good son of
(01:08):
God.
And and, you know, and he calledme to be a Catholic priest, I'm
a missionary, and and I love uhthe mission that I have.
It's so beautiful to be able tobring people closer to God and
and touch the realities ofpeople, not only here in Atlanta
where I live, but also throughmy work with Catholic World
Mission.
I'm working with missionariesall around the world and helping
(01:31):
the church and developing partsof the world, which is so cool.
Gosh, so there's so there's somany ways I could develop here,
Dr.
Kelly.
I don't know if you want to pullon one of those strings, but
that's a simple introduction.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
You know what's interesting.
I mean, when as soon as you saidmission, I mean, we all have a
mission field that we actuallywork on.
And when you when you talk aboutmaybe the mission work that you
do, I'd like to think a littlebit more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Sure.
Yeah.
Well, I you know, from the timeI was a little boy, I have
always been drawn to missions.
And I think that's why uh, youknow, when I was thinking about
the priesthood as a kid, I I forsome reason I didn't feel drawn
to being a parish priest,staying in in one place, but I
felt like drawn to sharing thegospel, sharing the good news of
(02:17):
Christ everywhere around theworld.
And I remember reading verydistinctly, I remember reading a
book when I was in fifth gradeabout missionaries, about
Christian missionaries inSoutheast Asia, particularly in
Laos and among the Hamong peoplewho were being persecuted for
their faith.
And it just stuck with me.
And in fifth grade, I had to doa book report, and so I drew a
picture of myself wearing ablack cassock and serving as a
(02:42):
missionary priest in SoutheastAsia.
Now, I've never lived there, buta month and a half ago, I
actually went for the first timeto Vietnam and right up to the
border with Laos.
And I was doing missionary workwith a group of sisters there
that work among the Hmongpeople.
And I remembered that, you know,from that episode from fifth
(03:05):
grade and that work.
And it was just like aconfirmation like the Lord has
me on the right path, and I'mdoing his work.
So the Lord gives us littleconsolations like that now and
then.
And for the last eight years,I've been serving as the
chairman of the board ofdirectors for an international
aid organization called CatholicWorld Mission.
And we help the poor, the needyuh in over 35 different
(03:27):
countries around the world.
Many of those places were uhChristians are being persecuted.
And so to be able, and mostlywhat we do is we partner with
lay people, with sisters, withpriests who are on the ground
living with the people, workingwith them, who really know their
realities.
And so, in a certain sense, whatwe do is we help bring their
(03:48):
dreams to completion, helpfacilitate them to do more and
to do better for the people thatthey're serving in the local
area.
So that's you know, that justfills my heart with joy every
time that I'm able to carry outthat mission and continue this
work that we're doing withCatholic World Mission.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
And it's so interesting how you, you know,
you had that, you know, youryour book report, and you had
the history and the and thethought of, you know, how cool
it would be.
I could just see you as youknow, like a little child, you
know, and then the Lord bringsthat to fruition.
And I love when he does that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
It it is it's so remarkable.
And you know, our own human wayswould never arrive.
Because I mean, how was I gonnaarrive to be a missionary?
We I you know, my community, thelegionaries of Christ, we don't
have a community in in Vietnamor in Southeast Asia.
We have community in Manila andthe Philippines and all in
Korea, but not in SoutheastAsia.
And so it's just, you know,God's ways are just so amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yes, that's fun.
I do like that.
Well, I do know that uh I dohave your book here, Leader Like
No Other.
We're gonna get into this injust a minute, but I want, you
know, I was thinking about thismorning as I was kind of
preparing myself.
And my my Christian walk startedas a young child.
(05:06):
My mother had us in Christianschool, went to Catholic church.
And, you know, when I thinkabout as a young person and
thinking about a priest andthinking about leadership, like
there was a disconnection therefor me.
Like never really thinking apriest is a leader.
(05:26):
And so I'd love just to sitthere for a minute and and maybe
talk about what is that, andmaybe why is there a disconnect?
If there is, maybe you've neverheard that from anybody, but but
I feel like experienced it.
Okay, I'd love to go there then.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I I think that there's a critical distinction
that we have to make.
Sometimes we fall into thinkingthat leaders are those who have
a position, they've got a title.
But actually, when you startlooking at the leadership
literature, that's a secondarything that's interrelated with
leadership, but it's notleadership per se.
(06:06):
Leadership isn't about a title,it's not something you're born
as a leader.
You develop leadershipqualities, and you're not really
a leader unless people arefollowing you.
And so, yes, a position can helpwith that, but sometimes it's it
actually can get in the way too.
So, you know, as a priest, youtake on a position of authority
(06:28):
of Jesus Christ.
And some people are betterleaders as a priest, and other
people are worse leaders as apriest.
And unfortunately, over theyears, I've met some really bad,
you know, those who have beendesignated with the authority of
the priesthood.
Unfortunately, we even knowcases of priests who have
violated the trust of people inegregious ways.
But I've also had the grace ofmeeting really extraordinary
(06:50):
priests who are great leaders.
And I've even had the chance tomeet a couple of saints in my
life who are now declaredsaints, like Saint John Paul II.
You know, you think about likein the 20th century, is there
anyone who has been more of asignificant leader than John
Paul II?
Helped bring down the IronCurtain and the Berlin Wall, you
know, reconciled nations,traveled the world.
(07:13):
I mean, was seen by any othermore than any other person in
the 20th century.
I mean, remarkable guy, a trulyamazing leader.
And so we can find examples ofboth bad and good within the
priesthood.
And I think that's perhaps partof the disconnect, you know,
making this distinction betweena positional leader and an
(07:35):
actual leader, which is someonewho exercises influence and and
the right attitudes, behaviorsthat bring out the best in other
people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Yes.
And I think that goes acrossindustries, right?
You're gonna have good leaders,not so good leaders.
And so thank you for for justreminding that because I think
when people think of a priest,right?
Somebody, a pastor, it it's likethere is they should be a
leader, right?
(08:04):
Because they have a flock.
Right.
And hopefully that they'releading effectively and meeting
people where they're at, and allthose things that that leaders
have to do.
And I think just as thatreminder that regardless of if
you're a priest or if you are aCEO of a company or an executive
(08:26):
director or wherever you are inthat hierarchy, that it's
important to remember, yes, youhave a title, but it's more than
a title.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Exactly.
And I think that's why thestudies show, for example, that
an a CEO is effective within acompany for about 5.43 years
statistically.
And you can begin to rest onyour laurels and think that, oh,
because I've got the title, I'mI'm in charge, I'm a great
leader.
I'm sorry, but that's not thecase.
We know that from experience.
(08:57):
You know, people decline ineffectiveness as leaders when
they start wrestling on theirlaurels and they stop doing the
hard work of being a goodleader.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
That's right.
And so much does land on theirshoulders.
I mean, if you're not producing,you're gone.
You know, next person is comingin for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
And I think that sometimes, uh, Kelly, it leads
to the ineffective leadership ofsome priests because you get
ordained as a priest and we're,you know, a pastor in a
Protestant church, and thenwell, you just keep going on,
and you know, it's really hardto get fired as a Catholic
priest.
You know, you just kind of get,you know, we get a little bit
(09:39):
complacent at times, and that'snot good because Jesus warns us
of that.
The Old Testament in the book ofEzekiel, there's some
excoriating remarks about thebad shepherds.
And Saint Augustine has a wholeseries that he talks about the
bad shepherds as well, which areyou know a really stark reminder
to any pastor that you don'trest on your laurels.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
That's right.
That is right.
Well, let's get into your book alittle bit because I would love
to hear like what brought aboutthis book.
It's called Leader Like NoOther, what secular leadership
models reveal about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and there's kind of afascinating backstory, Kelly.
So it's uh I'll share a littlebit.
I was, you know, doing mydoctoral studies in leadership
uh through CreightonUniversity's interdisciplinary
leadership program.
And I loved it.
It was great.
You know, it started in 2019,finished up uh two and a half
years ago.
Yeah, two and a half years agoalmost.
(10:40):
And after finishing those fouryears of doctoral studies,
defending my thesis, going tograduation, I was sharing with a
few other priests what I hadexperienced, the insights and
takeaways from those four yearsof studies.
And it dawned on me that notonce in those four years had we
talked about Jesus Christ as amodel of leadership.
And I was like, Oh, how is thatpossible?
(11:03):
I mean, just looking at a verysuperficial level, there is no
leader in the history ofhumanity that has had as many
followers as Jesus.
No one has had the quality orcaliber of followers of Jesus.
I mean, men and women willing tolay down their lives for him in
martyrdom or to give up familyand go off as missionaries.
I mean, no one comes even close.
(11:26):
The power of his message, thebalance of his leadership, the
lasting weight of his message,which hasn't faded with time.
There's just so many differentfactors we can say there is
really truly no leader thatcompares to Jesus in the history
of humanity.
And we'd ignored him.
(11:46):
And frankly, I mean, put it backon my squarely on my own
shoulders.
I kind of forgot about theexample of Jesus and his
leadership during those years ofstudies.
And so it it introduced afollow-up question.
All right, what would happen ifwe took the top 10 leadership
models that have been developedin the secular world, which you
(12:08):
know show that that you know, ifyou practice these things, it
will lead to good outcomes fromyour organ for your
organization.
Well, what if we looked at thosetop 10 models and then see how
Jesus stacks up against them?
That's right.
That's the whole book.
And it was fascinating.
I mean, I've been followingJesus my whole life.
I, you know, I've grew up as acradle Catholic and entered the
(12:30):
seminary when I was 17.
And I can honestly say, yes,I've always loved Jesus and
followed Jesus, but thisresearch opened my eyes to
Christ in a whole new way and amuch deeper appreciation and
love for the Lord.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
That's good.
I had a chance to flip throughit a little bit, and I really
like how it says Jesus meets themodel, like in in the chapters,
and how that how you pull thattogether.
I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, he doesmeet the model.
SPEAKER_01 (13:05):
And surprisingly so.
I mean, I go through each ofthese top 10 models, and again,
these are the top 10 that Ichose.
You know, you could choose othermodels, right?
And in and you could, you know,look at Jesus from that
perspective.
But quick presentation of themodel to make sure we understand
it.
That's right.
And then look at the evidencefrom scripture, from uh history
to say, okay, does Jesus matchthis model?
(13:28):
Does he live up to it?
And uh, I found some really,really surprising things.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I'd like to ask, it's just a publishing question.
Your your book is not like astandard six by nine.
So I'd love to know I'd love toknow the size.
How did you choose the size?
And look at that.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Uh, there was a little bit ofback and forth with the
publisher because the publisheractually came back to me
initially and said, Hey, wethink that this might work
better in kind of a workbooksize format.
And initially I was skepticalbecause like it might look kind
of cheesy, you know, and peopleare expecting like a standard
size book.
And then the more I thoughtabout it, the more I said, you
(14:10):
know, that actually makes a lotof sense for two reasons.
Number one, because the book hasa lot of charts, it has diagrams
and figures.
And if you put those into asmaller format book, they get
shrunken and it's harder to readthem.
And so going with a largerformat allows for greater ease
in reading those illustrations.
(14:31):
And the second reason that Ithought it was interesting is
because I I intended this fromthe get-go as sort of a support
text for a college level or highschool level leadership course.
And a lot of your textbooks arein a bigger format, and it gives
a little more of that feel, likethe academic feel to it.
(14:52):
Now, I try to strike a balancehere of being a book that just
anyone could read that doesn'thave to be like caught up in the
academic side of things, or as abook that could function really
well as a course uh forleadership within a a Christian
or a Catholic high school oruniversity.
Hopefully I'd see that balance.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Yes, I think you did.
And I and I like how at the endof the chapters that there are
those reflection questions forpeople too.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Questions for reflection, which you can deepen
in the in the the ideas wereshared in the chapter, but then
also some exercises.
Uh and this is something Ihaven't done in any of my prior
books, putting in thereexercises to develop your own
leadership.
That because you know how it is,Kelly.
We read so many books, you know,you read through something, and
then it, you know, it's in oneear, out the other, and you
(15:40):
forget about it two monthslater.
But when you actually reflectmore as you're going through a
book and then do some exercisesaround it, you retain more.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Yeah.
I'm just gonna read an exampleof an exercise.
You've got to under personalexercises, ask one to three
persons.
I deeply trust in which quartilethey would place our
organization.
Ask them to provide you feedbackon how well you are applying the
baseline behaviors and thequartile specific behaviors.
So that's interesting becauseafter the reflection, after
(16:12):
they've read through thechapter, that all would make
sense and to deepen things.
Yes.
Very good.
Excellent.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
I think that's particularly important, Dr.
Gillian, in in our AI world.
Because, you know, we start toread a lot of these articles
about the what are the effectson the human person of the use
of artificial intelligence.
SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
And what it's doing is it's diminishing our capacity
to process things, tointeriorize them, to really
think.
So we've we assume that becausewe have lots of information or
AI has produced some quickquestions or or summary for us
that somehow we know that now,but we really don't.
And so, in order to truly learnthings, we we've got to mold
(16:57):
them over, you've got to thinkabout it, you've got to ask
yourself questions, you gottastruggle to uh apply it, and
that takes work.
Uh so there's a little bit ofwork built into uh each chapter
here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Yes, and on that AI, yes, it can spit out a whole lot
of information for a person, butit is so important to understand
that it is just a tool in thetoolbox that is not something
that you should rely on, andthat it does make mistakes, it
is not a human being.
God did not create AI, it it hecreated people who created AI,
(17:35):
right?
But it is not a human.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
That's exactly right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
Well, let's get into working in leader in team
development because we talk alot about team dynamics,
building a culture, and Jesus'steam, the apostles, well, they
weren't perfect in any way, notat all, right?
Maybe even dysfunctional, right?
We could say that in somerespects.
(18:04):
So, what can the modern leaderlearn from the way that Jesus
recruited, trained, and managedhis team, if you will?
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Well, I think the first and most important lesson
that we can learn is that uhJesus spoke to the masses, he
healed the multitude, but helived with his disciples.
Yeah, that is, he dedicated thebulk of his time.
And this is really illustrativebecause Jesus is God, he's the
second person of the blessedTrinity.
(18:34):
He came on earth for a shortperiod of time, 33 years.
He spent the bulk of that insilence, in prayer, and
simplicity of daily life in hishome with his mother, his father
until you know he passed.
And and then he only spent threeyears of his life doing active
ministry.
And of that, the bulk was spentin working with these 12 guys,
(18:56):
and one of them betrayed him.
So I think a lot of times ourour desire is to you know get
out there and influence theworld.
But Jesus stayed in Palestine ina very restricted geographic
area, and he worked with a smallgroup of people primarily, and
(19:16):
yet he's had the greatest impactin the history of the world.
So I think that should instructour own way of working with
people.
If you want to have a tremendousimpact, you've got to work very
deeply with those who can thenreplicate your impact.
And you know, along these lines,Kelly, I think oftentimes of
(19:38):
mothers of families.
You know, that there's an oldsaying that comes from Latin,
which is the hand that rocks thecradle rules the world.
You know, I I think of so manyhidden uh housewives, mothers
who are working and formingtheir children, raising their
children, what a tremendousimpact that they have on the
world.
(19:58):
And I think that as a society,we sometimes we've overlooked
that.
And you know, we've pushed youknow, people to go out into the
workplace or have a successfulcareer is the terms that we use.
And yet, is not doing one of themost important things and
raising the next generation ofchildren, one of the most
important things we can do in asociety.
(20:19):
I mean, the role of a mother isirreplaceable.
Uh, and I and I so I think thoseare a couple of lessons that we
can draw out from how Jesusformed his apostles and and and
allocated his limited time onearth.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
What would you say?
Because they they were justeveryday people.
What would you say to like HRdepartments when they are
looking at who to hire?
Like, is there any indicationthere or does anything bubble up
to you with a correlationbetween Jesus and how we do
things today?
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yes, I think there's some certainly some lessons we
could do.
That's a great question, though,and I'd have to reflect on it
more.
But just on a quick responselevel, I think one of the key
things that HR departmentsshould look for is always
cultural fit.
We know that that's one of thekey indicators for you know that
you'll be successful within anorganization or company.
(21:17):
And I think that was one of thekey things Jesus was looking for
as well.
And even he got it wrong.
So if an HR department fails,you make a bad hire.
I mean, Jesus had Judas.
And frankly, only John was thereat the foot of the cross, and uh
10 others, you know, abandonedhim as well.
So not a great track record foreven for the most perfect man
(21:39):
who ever lived.
So we shouldn't be discouragedwhen there are misses in in
hiring.
We we just need to you knowlearn from those mistakes and
move on.
I think also we have to rememberthat it's not just about the
hire, it's how we treat thepeople once we bring them in.
(22:00):
The onboarding process, thehelping them to understand the
culture, to help them feelvalued.
And we know that one of themajor reasons why people leave a
company, number one reason, badboss.
Number two reason is becausethey don't feel valued or they
don't feel like they have apathward forward in their own
development.
(22:21):
And so it's not just about thehire, it's about how do you
treat those people, how do youinvolve them in the mission, how
do you make them feel valued andlike they're doing something
important.
I mean, you look at the exampleof Jesus, you know, he didn't
just go about doing everythinghimself.
You know, like one came at onepoint in the formation of his
disciples where he sent them outtwo by two.
(22:44):
He wasn't with them, he sentthem out and and he said, you
know, go and preach the gospeland go and cast out demons and
heal people.
And they're like, What?
Me?
And and I I can't even imaginewhat what it must have been like
when those disciples startedcoming back and swapping their
stories of the amazing thingsthat had taken place, and they
(23:07):
felt like on top of the world.
And so Jesus involved them inhis mission in a very intimate
and powerful way.
And so I think, you know,looking at these two aspects of
the hiring, but then also of theengagement of people once you
brought them on, those are tworeally critical things we can
learn from the example of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
I agree there.
And you know, you you startedwith culture and how important
it is to invest in your people.
So they are part of thatculture.
They feel part of the culture ofthe organization.
And then take it a step furtheris I have heard more than one
time where people are justterminated because with no
(23:53):
training, no, this is, you know,you have three strikes in your
none of that.
And you're just terminated andyou're sitting there wondering,
what did I do?
Right.
No real exit interview.
And I think that organizationsneed to commit to their people,
not just when they're hiringthem, but all the way through to
(24:14):
the end.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
There's no doubt.
And that's part of the cultureof an organization.
Do you want to have a culture ofan organization which treats its
employees like you knowinterchangeable cogs?
Yeah or it treats them likehuman beings who have their
strengths and weaknesses, theyhave their good moments, their
bad moments, they have thecapacity to grow and develop.
(24:35):
Uh if we treat it as a zero-sumgame, like these are you know
non-changeable, they're justmachines, that is a disrespect
for the human person.
And I think this is why it's soimportant that for companies to
truly build a Christian culturethat is exemplifying the dignity
of the human person, that'sdrawing the best out of each
(24:55):
individual, that's respectingthem and helping them to grow.
You know, there's a beautiful uhletter that St.
John Paul II wrote on thedignity of human work back in
the 80s, and it still holds truetoday.
You know, work isn't just aboutproducing, it's not just about
making money.
It is has much more to do withwhat how each one of us
(25:18):
cooperates in the creative workof God, how we develop our
skills and and leverage thosefor the good of others.
And I think in if we were tohave that perspective within our
companies about the dignity ofthe human person, I think it
would revolutionize the workworld.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
Let's do it.
I would love to see that letter.
Where would I be able to findthat?
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Yes, it's easy to find.
It's called in the Latin titleis Laborum Exercens.
It's A L A B O R E M.
And then a space, and then thesecond word is exertions, E-X E
R C E N S.
So if you just do a search onthe Vatican's website for
laborum exertions, you'll findthat letter, encyclical letter
(26:08):
of uh John Paul II talking aboutthe dignity of human work.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
So good.
I'm looking forward to reviewingthat.
Thank you.
Yeah.
For adding that.
All right, let's see what elsewe have here.
Again, on developing people.
Okay, let's go here.
So Jesus's method of leadershipwas and is for transformation
versus just thinking aboutperformance.
(26:34):
So let's go there.
Let's talk about thattransformation versus just
performance.
So many people are alwaystalking about high performing
leader, high performing team.
There's more to that, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
There is so much more.
And it ties back into what wewere just saying about the
dignity of human work.
It's not just about productionor performance.
It's much more about theelevation of the dignity of the
human person, about servingothers.
It's about elevating our societyas a whole.
And when we have that vision ofhuman work, then we can we can
(27:10):
and which we we can find inJesus.
I mean, what did Jesus dothrough his work?
He he drew others into amission, elevated their dignity,
helped people to find the beautyof life and of eternal life.
And so there's a much broaderperspective than just producing
widgets.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Right.
And you have there's value,right?
Instead of always performance, Itry to help leaders and teams
understand what value are youadding to the team, to the
organization as a whole.
Because it can't be just aboutyou have to have high
performers.
There's more to it than that.
Because if you have all theseother things before that, you
(27:53):
will have high performers, highperformee, but they will be
adding value to whatever it isthat they're attacking at that
time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
And along those lines, Philip, I remember a
study that I read, uh, which wasreally fascinating.
They did a test, and it was atuh I don't remember if it was
MIT or University ofMassachusetts, where they they
actually made teams of graduatestudents, uh, but they they did
different types of teams.
So they did one team that wasall kind of low-performing
(28:23):
students and categorized assuch.
They did another team of allhigh-performing students, like
all the you know, the type A'sput together on a team.
And then it did another teamthat was mixed.
Guess which of the teamsperformed the best.
Boy, tell me.
The mixed team.
Yeah, I would think so.
(28:43):
It was so fascinating because itwasn't the high the high
performers, they all gottogether and their egos got in
the way and they couldn't, youknow, they couldn't organize
things well, and they were notas productive.
And I think it's reallyinteresting because when you
have a mix of different talentsand some people who are willing
to take a backseat, be in asubservient role, or take the
(29:04):
hidden roles that are importantfor an organization to succeed,
then you have the glue thatholds things together.
And I think it's reallyimportant for people maybe who
are a little more type A orflashier, to have the humility
to recognize that these peopleover here are the key to their
success.
Uh and and so I think that thatis really important that we
(29:25):
value each person for whatthey're contributing.
And you know, there's a lot oftalk to it's kind of a fad talk
about how diversity makes usbetter.
And when they we were talkingabout that in my doctoral
studies, I started looking intothe data, and it's actually not
true as a universal statement.
Do you tell?
(29:47):
So diversity it it it depends onwhat type of diversity we're
talking about.
Different types of people,different uh skill sets.
Yes, that can make a teamstronger and better, but But
it's conditioned on culturalalignment and alignment in the
goals.
So if you have a diversity ofend goals that you're aiming
(30:09):
for, diversity destroys teams.
If you have diversity ofcultural expectations, or of you
know, like expectations likewhat time you show up for work,
or if you can come late forthings, or if you can, you know,
how you treat other people.
If there's diversity in theculture in that regard, it can
also destroy a team.
(30:30):
So diversity understoodcorrectly, yes, strengthens
teams, uh, but understoodincorrectly is totally
destructive for teams.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
I love that you brought that up.
And that there has to beclarity.
Because when I think aboutdiversity, I like to think about
it in a team construct withjagged edges where, but they do
have a common goal, they havecommon values, right?
But they're coming together withtheir uniqueness and how God
(31:01):
created them and coming togetheras a jagged edge team.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
Yeah, it is precisely that you know, if
you've got different uh ways oflooking at things, different
mindset, different skills, allthat can be brought together if
you have that united purpose andyou can unite on the values
which bring you together.
But if you have one or twopeople that are not aligned with
that, that's where you haveserious problems within a team
(31:27):
or organization.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
Yes.
unknown (31:31):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
Let's see what else we have here.
How are we with time?
We've got a little bit of timehere.
Let's talk about how about whatwhat's important maybe that you
would like people to take awayfrom the book?
Like what's something there topurchase your book, leader like
(31:54):
no other, what secularleadership models reveal about
Jesus?
What really, what's your hopefor this?
SPEAKER_01 (32:02):
That's a great question, uh Kelly.
I I would hope for two things atleast, and then each person can
come away with their own aswell.
But first of all, I hope thatpeople would come away with
concrete and actionable thingsthat would help them to improve
their leadership, theirorganization, their team
function, their parenting, theirhome life.
(32:23):
Because looking at the life ofJesus and looking at these
leadership models, it refreshesthings that we kind of already
know, but then brings us backinto okay, how can I apply this
in my life?
And with anecdotally talkingwith people who have read the
book, this one seems to beworking pretty well.
People are coming with concrete,concrete takeaways that are
helping them to become betterleaders.
(32:45):
And my second hope with thisbook is that anyone who reads it
is going to come away with adeeper appreciation for the
singular leadership of JesusChrist and open up their hearts
and their minds to a greateracceptance of the singularity of
Jesus Christ.
(33:05):
I think looking at Christ inthis perspective, and most
people don't really think aboutJesus topically as a leader.
They think of him as a savior,they think of him as a great
religious leader, they think ofhim as a historical figure.
But looking at Jesus from theperspective of leadership, it's
kind of mind-blowing a bit.
(33:26):
And I hope that it will helppeople to appreciate Jesus
Christ at a whole nother level.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Looking at all the facets of Jesus.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Yes.
And I remember in in my doctoralstudies when I started thinking
of that and bringing that in, itwas required because it's a
Christian university, read therequirement of bringing, you
know, the biblical componentsinto what we were writing about
and things.
And it was just veryeye-opening.
(33:58):
And so this book, I think, willbe very helpful.
And as you said, it's it's notit's not just for a specific
just for students, right?
Just for wherever you are on thehigher, it's for anybody to pick
up.
It is for a parent, for them tobe able to see themselves in
(34:19):
here as well.
And and having the thereflection to dig deeper and
look and maybe have a mindsetshift about how you've always
thought about your ownleadership, you as a parent as
well.
Because I we know that yes,parents are leaders, and we
don't want to discount that.
(34:40):
And we had that conversationearlier, but really being able
to see ourselves as a leader,and then how are we aligning
with how Jesus was a leader andreally thinking about that
because that can be powerful,especially if we are made in the
image of God, right?
And then how are we showing upin our everyday life for this?
(35:03):
That's right.
Yeah, that's good stuff.
Good stuff.
All right.
I would love to give you thelast word, Father Daniel.
What do you say to our peoplehere who are tuning in today?
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
Uh very simply, lead like Christ.
If you do, you'll you'll seetremendous success.
You will see, you know,sometimes you'll be crucified
like our Lord was, but that endsin glory.
And I I think that when we lookcan lead like Christ, the people
around us will feel engaged,enriched, uh, respected.
(35:43):
We'll see greater achievement,but not just the building
widgets type of achievement.
The type of achievement, thetype of success in which our
world is a better place.
There's greater respect forothers, there's more peace,
there's more serenity, there'sless frenetic activity, there's
more focus on what's trulyimportant in light of eternity.
(36:07):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
That's right.
Nothing else is that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
And that's why, you know, one of the things I I work
with executives, businessowners.
A lot of my ministry isdedicated to working with them.
And there are a lot of thepeople who you know gave reviews
for the book and are reading thebook and give me feedback and on
how the book is helping them.
And it's one of the things thatI is really encourage these men
that I'm working with to do ishave daily time of prayer.
(36:39):
Because through this, a booklike this, I can you know
influence a little bit with thepeople when when they're reading
it.
I can meet with these guys oncea month and talk with them.
But if they're meeting withJesus Christ every day in
prayer, they're readingscripture, they're comparing
their actions, their attitudesto those of Christ daily in
prayer, and and they're incontact with the second person
(37:01):
of the Blessed Trinity who isall-powerful, God who can do all
things in them, it has a wholelot more impact than just me as
an isolated individual.
And that would be part of mymessage to all of your listeners
as well, Kelly, to take up thatthat challenge of a daily
commitment to prayer, tolistening to God, to speaking
with him, to to allowing him toshape and mold our thoughts and
(37:26):
our actions and our behaviors sothat we can become more and more
shepherds or leaders after theheart of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
One thing though, because I'm going to bring you
back here, is that I thinkpeople hear a lot, oh, you
should pray, spend time, youknow, with the Lord.
But it is what I have found.
The people who I work with, itcan be difficult if they're, you
know, of the Christian faith andwe're going there, you know,
(37:56):
within our sessions.
It can be difficult for them tonumber one, understand that it
is, you know, you're just you'recommunicating, you're just
talking.
It doesn't have to be the thethou and all this.
It's like, what is your heart?
But I think people have a hardtime with thinking that they
have to be in a box and pray acertain way.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Have you there's so many different ways of praying,
Kelly.
And that it all ways that leadto Christ, all the ways that
lead to God are legitimate.
Okay.
There are some forms of of uhprayer which probably don't lead
to God that are moreself-referential, you know,
simply doing breathing exercisesor something like that.
It's not truly prayer, butprayer is entering into God.
(38:44):
And there's so many differentways we can do that.
It can and it and God hasallowed for all those different
ways because we have differentpersonalities.
And at different stages of ourlife, different forms of prayer
will be more or less helpful.
I love the fourth part of thecatechism of the Catholic
Church.
That entire section is dedicatedto prayer, different forms of
(39:05):
prayer, different ways to enterinto prayer, into that
relationship with God.
And there's some really greatinsights there in that fourth
part of the catechism that Ithink each one of us can can
leverage to improve our prayer.
And it's it's really not hard topray.
I oftentimes use with people whoare just starting off the pray
(39:26):
acronym.
It stands for praise, repent,ask, and yield.
And you go through those foursteps, you enter into a very
natural conversation with God.
It doesn't have to be formulaicprayers, which can help at
different times, but it's moreof that heart-to-heart
conversation with God.
Then, of course, we have theliturgy, we have uh songs, music
(39:49):
that can reach the heart in aspecial way.
We have communal prayer, prayingtogether with other people, the
liturgy of the hours.
There's so many beautiful waysto pray, and it's not restricted
to one, you know, one type ofprayer.
There's many beautiful ways topray.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
That's right.
He wants to hear from you,right?
Wants to hear your heart.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
And and he wants to pour out his graces upon us,
give us his strength and hisblessings.
SPEAKER_00 (40:15):
And we leaders need that more than anything.
SPEAKER_01 (40:19):
Well, we do.
The the work of leadership ishard, Kelly.
Yes.
I mean, it it requires reallythinking critically about
things, studying andresearching, doing the hard
work, you know, resolvingconflict and addressing it, not
just running away from it.
There's leadership is reallyhard work.
And and that's why I say to busypeople who are leaders, you need
(40:42):
prayer even more than otherpeople do, because without God's
grace, we can do nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
That is right.
That's a good word there,Father.
And thank you for for coming ontoday and talking a little bit
about your book and all theseother things that we talked
about around leaders and teams.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
People can find your book where?
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
You can find it on Amazon.
Pretty easy.
Just do Amazon.com and then lookfor Leader Like No Other.
And my last name, Brandenburg,and it should show up right
away.
You can also find it with aslightly discounted price on the
Regnant Christie store atregnantchristie.com.
And it's available on thebookstore there as well.
SPEAKER_00 (41:27):
Perfect.
All right, folks, you've heardit here with Father Daniel
Brandenburg.
I appreciate you.
Until next time, you keep doinggreat things, and we'll see you
soon.
Bye bye.
Thank you, Kelly.
All right.
Well, welcome to Conversations,where today we are sitting down
with Father Daniel Brandenburg.
Did I say that correctly?
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
You got it right.
All right.
Excellent.
SPEAKER_00 (00:11):
So how are you today?
Because typically, and I'll I'lljust pause here.
Typically, I just I read a bio,I ask how you're doing.
But I would love for you to justsay to the audience, what's
important for them to know aboutyou?
Because you have got a lot ofeducation, you've held a lot of
(00:33):
different roles.
You have had what some peoplewould call a health scare in
their lifetime.
So I would just love for youmaybe just to give us a who are
you, father?
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Gosh, I think most importantly, I am a follower of
Jesus Christ.
At the end of the day, that'sit.
You know, we all we will allstand before the judgment seat
of God.
And the most important thing isthat we love God and we did all
that we could with the you knowthe limited time and abilities
that God has given us.
And hopefully I've been a goodson of the Lord, a good son of
(01:08):
God.
And and, you know, and he calledme to be a Catholic priest, I'm
a missionary, and and I love uhthe mission that I have.
It's so beautiful to be able tobring people closer to God and
and touch the realities ofpeople, not only here in Atlanta
where I live, but also throughmy work with Catholic World
Mission.
I'm working with missionariesall around the world and helping
(01:31):
the church and developing partsof the world, which is so cool.
Gosh, so there's so there's somany ways I could develop here,
Dr.
Kelly.
I don't know if you want to pullon one of those strings, but
that's a simple introduction.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
You know what's interesting.
I mean, when as soon as you saidmission, I mean, we all have a
mission field that we actuallywork on.
And when you when you talk aboutmaybe the mission work that you
do, I'd like to think a littlebit more about that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Sure.
Yeah.
Well, I you know, from the timeI was a little boy, I have
always been drawn to missions.
And I think that's why uh, youknow, when I was thinking about
the priesthood as a kid, I I forsome reason I didn't feel drawn
to being a parish priest,staying in in one place, but I
felt like drawn to sharing thegospel, sharing the good news of
(02:17):
Christ everywhere around theworld.
And I remember reading verydistinctly, I remember reading a
book when I was in fifth gradeabout missionaries, about
Christian missionaries inSoutheast Asia, particularly in
Laos and among the Hamong peoplewho were being persecuted for
their faith.
And it just stuck with me.
And in fifth grade, I had to doa book report, and so I drew a
picture of myself wearing ablack cassock and serving as a
(02:42):
missionary priest in SoutheastAsia.
Now, I've never lived there, buta month and a half ago, I
actually went for the first timeto Vietnam and right up to the
border with Laos.
And I was doing missionary workwith a group of sisters there
that work among the Hmongpeople.
And I remembered that, you know,from that episode from fifth
(03:05):
grade and that work.
And it was just like aconfirmation like the Lord has
me on the right path, and I'mdoing his work.
So the Lord gives us littleconsolations like that now and
then.
And for the last eight years,I've been serving as the
chairman of the board ofdirectors for an international
aid organization called CatholicWorld Mission.
And we help the poor, the needyuh in over 35 different
(03:27):
countries around the world.
Many of those places were uhChristians are being persecuted.
And so to be able, and mostlywhat we do is we partner with
lay people, with sisters, withpriests who are on the ground
living with the people, workingwith them, who really know their
realities.
And so, in a certain sense, whatwe do is we help bring their
(03:48):
dreams to completion, helpfacilitate them to do more and
to do better for the people thatthey're serving in the local
area.
So that's you know, that justfills my heart with joy every
time that I'm able to carry outthat mission and continue this
work that we're doing withCatholic World Mission.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
And it's so interesting how you, you know,
you had that, you know, youryour book report, and you had
the history and the and thethought of, you know, how cool
it would be.
I could just see you as youknow, like a little child, you
know, and then the Lord bringsthat to fruition.
And I love when he does that.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
It it is it's so remarkable.
And you know, our own human wayswould never arrive.
Because I mean, how was I gonnaarrive to be a missionary?
We I you know, my community, thelegionaries of Christ, we don't
have a community in in Vietnamor in Southeast Asia.
We have community in Manila andthe Philippines and all in
Korea, but not in SoutheastAsia.
And so it's just, you know,God's ways are just so amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yes, that's fun.
I do like that.
Well, I do know that uh I dohave your book here, Leader Like
No Other.
We're gonna get into this injust a minute, but I want, you
know, I was thinking about thismorning as I was kind of
preparing myself.
And my my Christian walk startedas a young child.
(05:06):
My mother had us in Christianschool, went to Catholic church.
And, you know, when I thinkabout as a young person and
thinking about a priest andthinking about leadership, like
there was a disconnection therefor me.
Like never really thinking apriest is a leader.
(05:26):
And so I'd love just to sitthere for a minute and and maybe
talk about what is that, andmaybe why is there a disconnect?
If there is, maybe you've neverheard that from anybody, but but
I feel like experienced it.
Okay, I'd love to go there then.
SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
I I think that there's a critical distinction
that we have to make.
Sometimes we fall into thinkingthat leaders are those who have
a position, they've got a title.
But actually, when you startlooking at the leadership
literature, that's a secondarything that's interrelated with
leadership, but it's notleadership per se.
(06:06):
Leadership isn't about a title,it's not something you're born
as a leader.
You develop leadershipqualities, and you're not really
a leader unless people arefollowing you.
And so, yes, a position can helpwith that, but sometimes it's it
actually can get in the way too.
So, you know, as a priest, youtake on a position of authority
(06:28):
of Jesus Christ.
And some people are betterleaders as a priest, and other
people are worse leaders as apriest.
And unfortunately, over theyears, I've met some really bad,
you know, those who have beendesignated with the authority of
the priesthood.
Unfortunately, we even knowcases of priests who have
violated the trust of people inegregious ways.
But I've also had the grace ofmeeting really extraordinary
(06:50):
priests who are great leaders.
And I've even had the chance tomeet a couple of saints in my
life who are now declaredsaints, like Saint John Paul II.
You know, you think about likein the 20th century, is there
anyone who has been more of asignificant leader than John
Paul II?
Helped bring down the IronCurtain and the Berlin Wall, you
know, reconciled nations,traveled the world.
(07:13):
I mean, was seen by any othermore than any other person in
the 20th century.
I mean, remarkable guy, a trulyamazing leader.
And so we can find examples ofboth bad and good within the
priesthood.
And I think that's perhaps partof the disconnect, you know,
making this distinction betweena positional leader and an
(07:35):
actual leader, which is someonewho exercises influence and and
the right attitudes, behaviorsthat bring out the best in other
people.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
Yes.
And I think that goes acrossindustries, right?
You're gonna have good leaders,not so good leaders.
And so thank you for for justreminding that because I think
when people think of a priest,right?
Somebody, a pastor, it it's likethere is they should be a
leader, right?
(08:04):
Because they have a flock.
Right.
And hopefully that they'releading effectively and meeting
people where they're at, and allthose things that that leaders
have to do.
And I think just as thatreminder that regardless of if
you're a priest or if you are aCEO of a company or an executive
(08:26):
director or wherever you are inthat hierarchy, that it's
important to remember, yes, youhave a title, but it's more than
a title.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Exactly.
And I think that's why thestudies show, for example, that
an a CEO is effective within acompany for about 5.43 years
statistically.
And you can begin to rest onyour laurels and think that, oh,
because I've got the title, I'mI'm in charge, I'm a great
leader.
I'm sorry, but that's not thecase.
We know that from experience.
(08:57):
You know, people decline ineffectiveness as leaders when
they start wrestling on theirlaurels and they stop doing the
hard work of being a goodleader.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
That's right.
And so much does land on theirshoulders.
I mean, if you're not producing,you're gone.
You know, next person is comingin for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
And I think that sometimes, uh, Kelly, it leads
to the ineffective leadership ofsome priests because you get
ordained as a priest and we're,you know, a pastor in a
Protestant church, and thenwell, you just keep going on,
and you know, it's really hardto get fired as a Catholic
priest.
You know, you just kind of get,you know, we get a little bit
(09:39):
complacent at times, and that'snot good because Jesus warns us
of that.
The Old Testament in the book ofEzekiel, there's some
excoriating remarks about thebad shepherds.
And Saint Augustine has a wholeseries that he talks about the
bad shepherds as well, which areyou know a really stark reminder
to any pastor that you don'trest on your laurels.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
That's right.
That is right.
Well, let's get into your book alittle bit because I would love
to hear like what brought aboutthis book.
It's called Leader Like NoOther, what secular leadership
models reveal about Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and there's kind of afascinating backstory, Kelly.
So it's uh I'll share a littlebit.
I was, you know, doing mydoctoral studies in leadership
uh through CreightonUniversity's interdisciplinary
leadership program.
And I loved it.
It was great.
You know, it started in 2019,finished up uh two and a half
years ago.
Yeah, two and a half years agoalmost.
(10:40):
And after finishing those fouryears of doctoral studies,
defending my thesis, going tograduation, I was sharing with a
few other priests what I hadexperienced, the insights and
takeaways from those four yearsof studies.
And it dawned on me that notonce in those four years had we
talked about Jesus Christ as amodel of leadership.
And I was like, Oh, how is thatpossible?
(11:03):
I mean, just looking at a verysuperficial level, there is no
leader in the history ofhumanity that has had as many
followers as Jesus.
No one has had the quality orcaliber of followers of Jesus.
I mean, men and women willing tolay down their lives for him in
martyrdom or to give up familyand go off as missionaries.
I mean, no one comes even close.
(11:26):
The power of his message, thebalance of his leadership, the
lasting weight of his message,which hasn't faded with time.
There's just so many differentfactors we can say there is
really truly no leader thatcompares to Jesus in the history
of humanity.
And we'd ignored him.
(11:46):
And frankly, I mean, put it backon my squarely on my own
shoulders.
I kind of forgot about theexample of Jesus and his
leadership during those years ofstudies.
And so it it introduced afollow-up question.
All right, what would happen ifwe took the top 10 leadership
models that have been developedin the secular world, which you
(12:08):
know show that that you know, ifyou practice these things, it
will lead to good outcomes fromyour organ for your
organization.
Well, what if we looked at thosetop 10 models and then see how
Jesus stacks up against them?
That's right.
That's the whole book.
And it was fascinating.
I mean, I've been followingJesus my whole life.
I, you know, I've grew up as acradle Catholic and entered the
(12:30):
seminary when I was 17.
And I can honestly say, yes,I've always loved Jesus and
followed Jesus, but thisresearch opened my eyes to
Christ in a whole new way and amuch deeper appreciation and
love for the Lord.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
That's good.
I had a chance to flip throughit a little bit, and I really
like how it says Jesus meets themodel, like in in the chapters,
and how that how you pull thattogether.
I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, he doesmeet the model.
SPEAKER_01 (13:05):
And surprisingly so.
I mean, I go through each ofthese top 10 models, and again,
these are the top 10 that Ichose.
You know, you could choose othermodels, right?
And in and you could, you know,look at Jesus from that
perspective.
But quick presentation of themodel to make sure we understand
it.
That's right.
And then look at the evidencefrom scripture, from uh history
to say, okay, does Jesus matchthis model?
(13:28):
Does he live up to it?
And uh, I found some really,really surprising things.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I'd like to ask, it's just a publishing question.
Your your book is not like astandard six by nine.
So I'd love to know I'd love toknow the size.
How did you choose the size?
And look at that.
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Uh, there was a little bit ofback and forth with the
publisher because the publisheractually came back to me
initially and said, Hey, wethink that this might work
better in kind of a workbooksize format.
And initially I was skepticalbecause like it might look kind
of cheesy, you know, and peopleare expecting like a standard
size book.
And then the more I thoughtabout it, the more I said, you
(14:10):
know, that actually makes a lotof sense for two reasons.
Number one, because the book hasa lot of charts, it has diagrams
and figures.
And if you put those into asmaller format book, they get
shrunken and it's harder to readthem.
And so going with a largerformat allows for greater ease
in reading those illustrations.
(14:31):
And the second reason that Ithought it was interesting is
because I I intended this fromthe get-go as sort of a support
text for a college level or highschool level leadership course.
And a lot of your textbooks arein a bigger format, and it gives
a little more of that feel, likethe academic feel to it.
(14:52):
Now, I try to strike a balancehere of being a book that just
anyone could read that doesn'thave to be like caught up in the
academic side of things, or as abook that could function really
well as a course uh forleadership within a a Christian
or a Catholic high school oruniversity.
Hopefully I'd see that balance.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Yes, I think you did.
And I and I like how at the endof the chapters that there are
those reflection questions forpeople too.
SPEAKER_01 (15:18):
Questions for reflection, which you can deepen
in the in the the ideas wereshared in the chapter, but then
also some exercises.
Uh and this is something Ihaven't done in any of my prior
books, putting in thereexercises to develop your own
leadership.
That because you know how it is,Kelly.
We read so many books, you know,you read through something, and
then it, you know, it's in oneear, out the other, and you
(15:40):
forget about it two monthslater.
But when you actually reflectmore as you're going through a
book and then do some exercisesaround it, you retain more.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Yeah.
I'm just gonna read an exampleof an exercise.
You've got to under personalexercises, ask one to three
persons.
I deeply trust in which quartilethey would place our
organization.
Ask them to provide you feedbackon how well you are applying the
baseline behaviors and thequartile specific behaviors.
So that's interesting becauseafter the reflection, after
(16:12):
they've read through thechapter, that all would make
sense and to deepen things.
Yes.
Very good.
Excellent.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
I think that's particularly important, Dr.
Gillian, in in our AI world.
Because, you know, we start toread a lot of these articles
about the what are the effectson the human person of the use
of artificial intelligence.
SPEAKER_02 (16:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
And what it's doing is it's diminishing our capacity
to process things, tointeriorize them, to really
think.
So we've we assume that becausewe have lots of information or
AI has produced some quickquestions or or summary for us
that somehow we know that now,but we really don't.
And so, in order to truly learnthings, we we've got to mold
(16:57):
them over, you've got to thinkabout it, you've got to ask
yourself questions, you gottastruggle to uh apply it, and
that takes work.
Uh so there's a little bit ofwork built into uh each chapter
here.
SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Yes, and on that AI, yes, it can spit out a whole lot
of information for a person, butit is so important to understand
that it is just a tool in thetoolbox that is not something
that you should rely on, andthat it does make mistakes, it
is not a human being.
God did not create AI, it it hecreated people who created AI,
(17:35):
right?
But it is not a human.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
That's exactly right.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (17:42):
Well, let's get into working in leader in team
development because we talk alot about team dynamics,
building a culture, and Jesus'steam, the apostles, well, they
weren't perfect in any way, notat all, right?
Maybe even dysfunctional, right?
We could say that in somerespects.
(18:04):
So, what can the modern leaderlearn from the way that Jesus
recruited, trained, and managedhis team, if you will?
SPEAKER_01 (18:12):
Well, I think the first and most important lesson
that we can learn is that uhJesus spoke to the masses, he
healed the multitude, but helived with his disciples.
Yeah, that is, he dedicated thebulk of his time.
And this is really illustrativebecause Jesus is God, he's the
second person of the blessedTrinity.
(18:34):
He came on earth for a shortperiod of time, 33 years.
He spent the bulk of that insilence, in prayer, and
simplicity of daily life in hishome with his mother, his father
until you know he passed.
And and then he only spent threeyears of his life doing active
ministry.
And of that, the bulk was spentin working with these 12 guys,
(18:56):
and one of them betrayed him.
So I think a lot of times ourour desire is to you know get
out there and influence theworld.
But Jesus stayed in Palestine ina very restricted geographic
area, and he worked with a smallgroup of people primarily, and
(19:16):
yet he's had the greatest impactin the history of the world.
So I think that should instructour own way of working with
people.
If you want to have a tremendousimpact, you've got to work very
deeply with those who can thenreplicate your impact.
And you know, along these lines,Kelly, I think oftentimes of
(19:38):
mothers of families.
You know, that there's an oldsaying that comes from Latin,
which is the hand that rocks thecradle rules the world.
You know, I I think of so manyhidden uh housewives, mothers
who are working and formingtheir children, raising their
children, what a tremendousimpact that they have on the
world.
(19:58):
And I think that as a society,we sometimes we've overlooked
that.
And you know, we've pushed youknow, people to go out into the
workplace or have a successfulcareer is the terms that we use.
And yet, is not doing one of themost important things and
raising the next generation ofchildren, one of the most
important things we can do in asociety.
(20:19):
I mean, the role of a mother isirreplaceable.
Uh, and I and I so I think thoseare a couple of lessons that we
can draw out from how Jesusformed his apostles and and and
allocated his limited time onearth.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
What would you say?
Because they they were justeveryday people.
What would you say to like HRdepartments when they are
looking at who to hire?
Like, is there any indicationthere or does anything bubble up
to you with a correlationbetween Jesus and how we do
things today?
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Yes, I think there's some certainly some lessons we
could do.
That's a great question, though,and I'd have to reflect on it
more.
But just on a quick responselevel, I think one of the key
things that HR departmentsshould look for is always
cultural fit.
We know that that's one of thekey indicators for you know that
you'll be successful within anorganization or company.
(21:17):
And I think that was one of thekey things Jesus was looking for
as well.
And even he got it wrong.
So if an HR department fails,you make a bad hire.
I mean, Jesus had Judas.
And frankly, only John was thereat the foot of the cross, and uh
10 others, you know, abandonedhim as well.
So not a great track record foreven for the most perfect man
(21:39):
who ever lived.
So we shouldn't be discouragedwhen there are misses in in
hiring.
We we just need to you knowlearn from those mistakes and
move on.
I think also we have to rememberthat it's not just about the
hire, it's how we treat thepeople once we bring them in.
(22:00):
The onboarding process, thehelping them to understand the
culture, to help them feelvalued.
And we know that one of themajor reasons why people leave a
company, number one reason, badboss.
Number two reason is becausethey don't feel valued or they
don't feel like they have apathward forward in their own
development.
(22:21):
And so it's not just about thehire, it's about how do you
treat those people, how do youinvolve them in the mission, how
do you make them feel valued andlike they're doing something
important.
I mean, you look at the exampleof Jesus, you know, he didn't
just go about doing everythinghimself.
You know, like one came at onepoint in the formation of his
disciples where he sent them outtwo by two.
(22:44):
He wasn't with them, he sentthem out and and he said, you
know, go and preach the gospeland go and cast out demons and
heal people.
And they're like, What?
Me?
And and I I can't even imaginewhat what it must have been like
when those disciples startedcoming back and swapping their
stories of the amazing thingsthat had taken place, and they
(23:07):
felt like on top of the world.
And so Jesus involved them inhis mission in a very intimate
and powerful way.
And so I think, you know,looking at these two aspects of
the hiring, but then also of theengagement of people once you
brought them on, those are tworeally critical things we can
learn from the example of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
I agree there.
And you know, you you startedwith culture and how important
it is to invest in your people.
So they are part of thatculture.
They feel part of the culture ofthe organization.
And then take it a step furtheris I have heard more than one
time where people are justterminated because with no
(23:53):
training, no, this is, you know,you have three strikes in your
none of that.
And you're just terminated andyou're sitting there wondering,
what did I do?
Right.
No real exit interview.
And I think that organizationsneed to commit to their people,
not just when they're hiringthem, but all the way through to
(24:14):
the end.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
There's no doubt.
And that's part of the cultureof an organization.
Do you want to have a culture ofan organization which treats its
employees like you knowinterchangeable cogs?
Yeah or it treats them likehuman beings who have their
strengths and weaknesses, theyhave their good moments, their
bad moments, they have thecapacity to grow and develop.
(24:35):
Uh if we treat it as a zero-sumgame, like these are you know
non-changeable, they're justmachines, that is a disrespect
for the human person.
And I think this is why it's soimportant that for companies to
truly build a Christian culturethat is exemplifying the dignity
of the human person, that'sdrawing the best out of each
(24:55):
individual, that's respectingthem and helping them to grow.
You know, there's a beautiful uhletter that St.
John Paul II wrote on thedignity of human work back in
the 80s, and it still holds truetoday.
You know, work isn't just aboutproducing, it's not just about
making money.
It is has much more to do withwhat how each one of us
(25:18):
cooperates in the creative workof God, how we develop our
skills and and leverage thosefor the good of others.
And I think in if we were tohave that perspective within our
companies about the dignity ofthe human person, I think it
would revolutionize the workworld.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
Let's do it.
I would love to see that letter.
Where would I be able to findthat?
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
Yes, it's easy to find.
It's called in the Latin titleis Laborum Exercens.
It's A L A B O R E M.
And then a space, and then thesecond word is exertions, E-X E
R C E N S.
So if you just do a search onthe Vatican's website for
laborum exertions, you'll findthat letter, encyclical letter
(26:08):
of uh John Paul II talking aboutthe dignity of human work.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
So good.
I'm looking forward to reviewingthat.
Thank you.
Yeah.
For adding that.
All right, let's see what elsewe have here.
Again, on developing people.
Okay, let's go here.
So Jesus's method of leadershipwas and is for transformation
versus just thinking aboutperformance.
(26:34):
So let's go there.
Let's talk about thattransformation versus just
performance.
So many people are alwaystalking about high performing
leader, high performing team.
There's more to that, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
There is so much more.
And it ties back into what wewere just saying about the
dignity of human work.
It's not just about productionor performance.
It's much more about theelevation of the dignity of the
human person, about servingothers.
It's about elevating our societyas a whole.
And when we have that vision ofhuman work, then we can we can
(27:10):
and which we we can find inJesus.
I mean, what did Jesus dothrough his work?
He he drew others into amission, elevated their dignity,
helped people to find the beautyof life and of eternal life.
And so there's a much broaderperspective than just producing
widgets.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Right.
And you have there's value,right?
Instead of always performance, Itry to help leaders and teams
understand what value are youadding to the team, to the
organization as a whole.
Because it can't be just aboutyou have to have high
performers.
There's more to it than that.
Because if you have all theseother things before that, you
(27:53):
will have high performers, highperformee, but they will be
adding value to whatever it isthat they're attacking at that
time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
And along those lines, Philip, I remember a
study that I read, uh, which wasreally fascinating.
They did a test, and it was atuh I don't remember if it was
MIT or University ofMassachusetts, where they they
actually made teams of graduatestudents, uh, but they they did
different types of teams.
So they did one team that wasall kind of low-performing
(28:23):
students and categorized assuch.
They did another team of allhigh-performing students, like
all the you know, the type A'sput together on a team.
And then it did another teamthat was mixed.
Guess which of the teamsperformed the best.
Boy, tell me.
The mixed team.
Yeah, I would think so.
(28:43):
It was so fascinating because itwasn't the high the high
performers, they all gottogether and their egos got in
the way and they couldn't, youknow, they couldn't organize
things well, and they were notas productive.
And I think it's reallyinteresting because when you
have a mix of different talentsand some people who are willing
to take a backseat, be in asubservient role, or take the
(29:04):
hidden roles that are importantfor an organization to succeed,
then you have the glue thatholds things together.
And I think it's reallyimportant for people maybe who
are a little more type A orflashier, to have the humility
to recognize that these peopleover here are the key to their
success.
Uh and and so I think that thatis really important that we
(29:25):
value each person for whatthey're contributing.
And you know, there's a lot oftalk to it's kind of a fad talk
about how diversity makes usbetter.
And when they we were talkingabout that in my doctoral
studies, I started looking intothe data, and it's actually not
true as a universal statement.
Do you tell?
(29:47):
So diversity it it it depends onwhat type of diversity we're
talking about.
Different types of people,different uh skill sets.
Yes, that can make a teamstronger and better, but But
it's conditioned on culturalalignment and alignment in the
goals.
So if you have a diversity ofend goals that you're aiming
(30:09):
for, diversity destroys teams.
If you have diversity ofcultural expectations, or of you
know, like expectations likewhat time you show up for work,
or if you can come late forthings, or if you can, you know,
how you treat other people.
If there's diversity in theculture in that regard, it can
also destroy a team.
(30:30):
So diversity understoodcorrectly, yes, strengthens
teams, uh, but understoodincorrectly is totally
destructive for teams.
SPEAKER_00 (30:41):
I love that you brought that up.
And that there has to beclarity.
Because when I think aboutdiversity, I like to think about
it in a team construct withjagged edges where, but they do
have a common goal, they havecommon values, right?
But they're coming together withtheir uniqueness and how God
(31:01):
created them and coming togetheras a jagged edge team.
SPEAKER_01 (31:06):
Yeah, it is precisely that you know, if
you've got different uh ways oflooking at things, different
mindset, different skills, allthat can be brought together if
you have that united purpose andyou can unite on the values
which bring you together.
But if you have one or twopeople that are not aligned with
that, that's where you haveserious problems within a team
(31:27):
or organization.
SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
Yes.
unknown (31:31):
Awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (31:31):
Let's see what else we have here.
How are we with time?
We've got a little bit of timehere.
Let's talk about how about whatwhat's important maybe that you
would like people to take awayfrom the book?
Like what's something there topurchase your book, leader like
(31:54):
no other, what secularleadership models reveal about
Jesus?
What really, what's your hopefor this?
SPEAKER_01 (32:02):
That's a great question, uh Kelly.
I I would hope for two things atleast, and then each person can
come away with their own aswell.
But first of all, I hope thatpeople would come away with
concrete and actionable thingsthat would help them to improve
their leadership, theirorganization, their team
function, their parenting, theirhome life.
(32:23):
Because looking at the life ofJesus and looking at these
leadership models, it refreshesthings that we kind of already
know, but then brings us backinto okay, how can I apply this
in my life?
And with anecdotally talkingwith people who have read the
book, this one seems to beworking pretty well.
People are coming with concrete,concrete takeaways that are
helping them to become betterleaders.
(32:45):
And my second hope with thisbook is that anyone who reads it
is going to come away with adeeper appreciation for the
singular leadership of JesusChrist and open up their hearts
and their minds to a greateracceptance of the singularity of
Jesus Christ.
(33:05):
I think looking at Christ inthis perspective, and most
people don't really think aboutJesus topically as a leader.
They think of him as a savior,they think of him as a great
religious leader, they think ofhim as a historical figure.
But looking at Jesus from theperspective of leadership, it's
kind of mind-blowing a bit.
(33:26):
And I hope that it will helppeople to appreciate Jesus
Christ at a whole nother level.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
Looking at all the facets of Jesus.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:36):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Yes.
And I remember in in my doctoralstudies when I started thinking
of that and bringing that in, itwas required because it's a
Christian university, read therequirement of bringing, you
know, the biblical componentsinto what we were writing about
and things.
And it was just veryeye-opening.
(33:58):
And so this book, I think, willbe very helpful.
And as you said, it's it's notit's not just for a specific
just for students, right?
Just for wherever you are on thehigher, it's for anybody to pick
up.
It is for a parent, for them tobe able to see themselves in
(34:19):
here as well.
And and having the thereflection to dig deeper and
look and maybe have a mindsetshift about how you've always
thought about your ownleadership, you as a parent as
well.
Because I we know that yes,parents are leaders, and we
don't want to discount that.
(34:40):
And we had that conversationearlier, but really being able
to see ourselves as a leader,and then how are we aligning
with how Jesus was a leader andreally thinking about that
because that can be powerful,especially if we are made in the
image of God, right?
And then how are we showing upin our everyday life for this?
(35:03):
That's right.
Yeah, that's good stuff.
Good stuff.
All right.
I would love to give you thelast word, Father Daniel.
What do you say to our peoplehere who are tuning in today?
SPEAKER_01 (35:20):
Uh very simply, lead like Christ.
If you do, you'll you'll seetremendous success.
You will see, you know,sometimes you'll be crucified
like our Lord was, but that endsin glory.
And I I think that when we lookcan lead like Christ, the people
around us will feel engaged,enriched, uh, respected.
(35:43):
We'll see greater achievement,but not just the building
widgets type of achievement.
The type of achievement, thetype of success in which our
world is a better place.
There's greater respect forothers, there's more peace,
there's more serenity, there'sless frenetic activity, there's
more focus on what's trulyimportant in light of eternity.
(36:07):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (36:09):
That's right.
Nothing else is that.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
And that's why, you know, one of the things I I work
with executives, businessowners.
A lot of my ministry isdedicated to working with them.
And there are a lot of thepeople who you know gave reviews
for the book and are reading thebook and give me feedback and on
how the book is helping them.
And it's one of the things thatI is really encourage these men
that I'm working with to do ishave daily time of prayer.
(36:39):
Because through this, a booklike this, I can you know
influence a little bit with thepeople when when they're reading
it.
I can meet with these guys oncea month and talk with them.
But if they're meeting withJesus Christ every day in
prayer, they're readingscripture, they're comparing
their actions, their attitudesto those of Christ daily in
prayer, and and they're incontact with the second person
(37:01):
of the Blessed Trinity who isall-powerful, God who can do all
things in them, it has a wholelot more impact than just me as
an isolated individual.
And that would be part of mymessage to all of your listeners
as well, Kelly, to take up thatthat challenge of a daily
commitment to prayer, tolistening to God, to speaking
with him, to to allowing him toshape and mold our thoughts and
(37:26):
our actions and our behaviors sothat we can become more and more
shepherds or leaders after theheart of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (37:36):
One thing though, because I'm going to bring you
back here, is that I thinkpeople hear a lot, oh, you
should pray, spend time, youknow, with the Lord.
But it is what I have found.
The people who I work with, itcan be difficult if they're, you
know, of the Christian faith andwe're going there, you know,
(37:56):
within our sessions.
It can be difficult for them tonumber one, understand that it
is, you know, you're just you'recommunicating, you're just
talking.
It doesn't have to be the thethou and all this.
It's like, what is your heart?
But I think people have a hardtime with thinking that they
have to be in a box and pray acertain way.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Have you there's so many different ways of praying,
Kelly.
And that it all ways that leadto Christ, all the ways that
lead to God are legitimate.
Okay.
There are some forms of of uhprayer which probably don't lead
to God that are moreself-referential, you know,
simply doing breathing exercisesor something like that.
It's not truly prayer, butprayer is entering into God.
(38:44):
And there's so many differentways we can do that.
It can and it and God hasallowed for all those different
ways because we have differentpersonalities.
And at different stages of ourlife, different forms of prayer
will be more or less helpful.
I love the fourth part of thecatechism of the Catholic
Church.
That entire section is dedicatedto prayer, different forms of
(39:05):
prayer, different ways to enterinto prayer, into that
relationship with God.
And there's some really greatinsights there in that fourth
part of the catechism that Ithink each one of us can can
leverage to improve our prayer.
And it's it's really not hard topray.
I oftentimes use with people whoare just starting off the pray
(39:26):
acronym.
It stands for praise, repent,ask, and yield.
And you go through those foursteps, you enter into a very
natural conversation with God.
It doesn't have to be formulaicprayers, which can help at
different times, but it's moreof that heart-to-heart
conversation with God.
Then, of course, we have theliturgy, we have uh songs, music
(39:49):
that can reach the heart in aspecial way.
We have communal prayer, prayingtogether with other people, the
liturgy of the hours.
There's so many beautiful waysto pray, and it's not restricted
to one, you know, one type ofprayer.
There's many beautiful ways topray.
SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
That's right.
He wants to hear from you,right?
Wants to hear your heart.
SPEAKER_01 (40:10):
And and he wants to pour out his graces upon us,
give us his strength and hisblessings.
SPEAKER_00 (40:15):
And we leaders need that more than anything.
SPEAKER_01 (40:19):
Well, we do.
The the work of leadership ishard, Kelly.
Yes.
I mean, it it requires reallythinking critically about
things, studying andresearching, doing the hard
work, you know, resolvingconflict and addressing it, not
just running away from it.
There's leadership is reallyhard work.
And and that's why I say to busypeople who are leaders, you need
(40:42):
prayer even more than otherpeople do, because without God's
grace, we can do nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
That is right.
That's a good word there,Father.
And thank you for for coming ontoday and talking a little bit
about your book and all theseother things that we talked
about around leaders and teams.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
People can find your book where?
SPEAKER_01 (41:08):
You can find it on Amazon.
Pretty easy.
Just do Amazon.com and then lookfor Leader Like No Other.
And my last name, Brandenburg,and it should show up right
away.
You can also find it with aslightly discounted price on the
Regnant Christie store atregnantchristie.com.
And it's available on thebookstore there as well.
SPEAKER_00 (41:27):
Perfect.
All right, folks, you've heardit here with Father Daniel
Brandenburg.
I appreciate you.
Until next time, you keep doinggreat things, and we'll see you
soon.
Bye bye.
Thank you, Kelly.
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