May 16, 2022 • 39 mins
What does consensual non-monogamy look like in the real world? We’ll hear about how a young marriage left behind a big what if. Plus an inside look at an open marriage with pro-skateboarder and podcast host Jason Ellis. And of course, we’re all hands on deck with our experts Dr. Justin Lehmiller, Dr. Ian Kerner, and Dr. Martha Kauppi to talk about what a relationship needs in order for non-monogamy to work.
Sarah Elise Abramson
https://www.instagram.com/slow_toast2
Jason Ellis
https://open.spotify.com/show/1GRwIeEnWJuoZIMq6HdGMB
https://www.instagram.com/wolfmate
Dr. Ian Kerner
https://www.iankerner.com/
Dr. Ian Kerner’s best-selling book, She Comes First
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060538260/
Dr. Justin Lehmiller
https://www.sexandpsychology.com
https://open.spotify.com/show/6DCIGjOUaenoKdY71N7NqI
Martha Kauppi
https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
Sarah Elise Abramson
https://www.instagram.com/slow_toast2
Jason Ellis
https://open.spotify.com/show/1GRwIeEnWJuoZIMq6HdGMB
https://www.instagram.com/wolfmate
Dr. Ian Kerner
https://www.iankerner.com/
Dr. Ian Kerner’s best-selling book, She Comes First
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0060538260/
Dr. Justin Lehmiller
https://www.sexandpsychology.com
https://open.spotify.com/show/6DCIGjOUaenoKdY71N7NqI
Martha Kauppi
https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media A Jay.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Women Together. If it's ten years.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Yeah, Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
In episode ten is our character's first attempt at truly
consensual non monogamy, because everything's out in the open.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
And that got us thinking, what does consensual non monogamy
look like in the real world?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Wait, Conversations with Friends isn't a docu series. We'll hear
about how a young marriage left behind a big what if.
Then we'll get an inside look at an open marriage
with pro skateboarder and podcast host Jason Ellis, And of
course we're all hands on deck with experts Just and
Ley Miller, Ian Kerner, and Martha Colpy to talk about
what a relationship needs in order for no monogamy to work.
(01:06):
It needs pet chickens that lay fresh eggs every morning,
not exactly, but that would be nice for now. Let's recap.
So this episode, episode ten, big episode, big episode, Melissa
wants to talk to Francis. Yeah, the dread in her
face when she sees that email. It's they externalize this
(01:28):
conversation in the series. So Francis actually goes over to
their house, which is terrifying. I could never do that,
no way. In some ways, it feels like the affair
is a sign of life for Nick, and Melissa sees
that Francis is having a positive effect on him. He's happier,
and so she's willing to try and make it work.
They all have dinner together with Bobby. It's awkward, but
(01:50):
there's a little humor. They're self aware, and Melissa shares
with Francis that she also has an alcoholic father, which
kind of signals to Francis that their relationship is no
longer just theirs.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, no longer hers a. Nick's that's a good point.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Speaking of France's alcoholic father, he's still not answering her
calls and she still has no money. Nick and Francis
start having conversations about children. They're saying I love yous
during sex. They go out on a fancy dinner and
Valerie wants to publish Francis's short story in a literary magazine,
but she gets a weird voicemail from her dad. It's
(02:27):
kind of scary. It turns out he's okay, kind of,
but he's also not really okay.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And meanwhile, Bobby is dealing with her own family drama.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, they have both, both of them have. Both Bobby
and Francis have family drama going on. At the same time.
They go out with some friends and they have a
great conversation about monogamy spontaneous consent, and then Bobby and
Frances kiss sweetly.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
This episode has their first attempt at truly consensual non
monogamy because everyone is finally on the same page, out
in the open, and so that got us thinking, what
does consensual non monogamy look like in the real world.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Consensual nominogamy and polyamory. Interest in them is on the rise.
We see this in Google searches popular media depictions. People
are increasingly interested in understanding what it might be like
to be able to be in a sexual and romantic
relationship with more than one person at a time.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
If we're going to talk about consensual nominogamy. We have
to bring back doctor Justin leih Miller.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Now, despite the fact that interest is growing, not that
many people have actually tried consensual nominogamy in real life.
The best available data we have suggested about one in
five North Americans have ever been in some type of
sexually open relationship and only about five percent are currently
practicing it in some form or another. So there's a
(03:50):
pretty big gap between people's fantasy about this, their interest
in it, and the actual reality of it.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So what is holding people back from exploring these alternatives
to monogamy. Well, for starters, there's not really a model
for how to do it.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
They've never seen anyone in their own life practicing this
style of relationship. And there's so much uncertainty with just
having one relationship as it is, so when you start
adding multiple relationships into the mix, the complexity of that
is something that a lot of people just I think
don't feel equipped to explore on their own. And that's
(04:26):
where I think we need more relationship education that exposes
people to different models of having relationships so that people
can choose the kind of relationship that is right for them.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And a lack of awareness about different kinds of relationships
can lead to some big what ifs. I was spending
time with a friend the other day while we were
working on the show. Her name is Sarah Abramson. She's
an amazing photographer and artist, and she was telling me
a story about when she was married.
Speaker 6 (04:51):
We got married when I was twenty okay, at a
mutual friend's house. And after we got married, my parents
bought us our first house.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
They were married for three years, but together for longer,
and there was a lot of love fare.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
And when I was married to him, I felt like
I had found my tribe with his family. Like his
parents are like punk royalty, Like his mom lived with
sitting Nancy in New York and his dad was in
the Screamers and his aunt was the bass player Black Flag,
and like these were my people and I loved having
(05:25):
them as a family.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I talked to his mom like once a month probably.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
So what happened all those years ago and how does
it relate to our story? Well, back in San Pedro,
where Sarah's from, there's a big music scene.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
And I started developing feelings for this girl named Jessica,
who was the lead singer of a couple bands there,
and she was like that person who's the center of
attention at every party, super loud, super fun, and she
was incredibly talented too. I thought she was the coolest
(06:02):
person I'd ever met. Like that's just how I felt
about her, And that was like the general consensus among
all our Pedro friends, like Jessica's really cool, Like she's
the person you go to when you want to have fun.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah, I can see how that would be massively alluring.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
And when I met Alex, I mean he wasn't that,
but he was like dirty and grungy and punk, and
like as we matured and he got like a real
job computer programming and would go to work in like
nice clothes and let you know, he changed a lot.
(06:41):
And I don't think that we changed in the same way.
Like when you're in a relationship, especially in marriage, I
think it's really hard to grow in unison with someone
like you have to make a conscious effort to do
so and like communicate a lot about it, which obviously
we weren't doing.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, because I think like people are going to grow,
but they're going to grow probably at different paces, so
like you're going to go through one gross Burt and
then they're going to go through another one, and you
guys are going to be constantly.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
So back then, Sarah was having these very intense feelings
not only for someone else, but for another girl, and.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
It was like tearing me apart, Like I felt so guilty,
and I thought that if I could have feelings for
not only another person but a girl, that must have
meant I didn't love him as much as I thought
(07:41):
I did. And I like worked up the courage to
have a talk with him, and like, Okay, to this day,
he is the best man I have ever known and
probably will ever know. He's so smart, stupid smart, but
(08:06):
never makes you feel stupid, very intuitive, like very zen.
He's done a fuck ton of yoga, but he just
like knew like and he sat down next to me
and he was like, you don't want to grow old
with me anymore, do you? And I just like broke
down crying and we talked, and then he moved out
(08:30):
the next day.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Not long after, she ended up dating Jessica, but it
wasn't really what she had imagined.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
My relationship with her was very toxic. My relationship with Alex,
my ex husband, was we literally never fought ever.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
But it sounds like Jessica was like a representation of
like the experimentation and exploration you still felt like you
needed to do because you were a really young person,
like twenty one twenty two at this point.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Right, Yeah, that's a very good insight. I would have
to agree to that. Yeah, she was like party animal crazy.
We literally got each other's names tattooed on each other
after being together for like two weeks.
Speaker 7 (09:11):
Smart decisions.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I mean it is like it's intense. It's like that
feeling of I don't know, uh hi, right totally. Yeah,
new new relationship energy. It's hard to compete with.
Speaker 7 (09:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
As Sarah's gotten older and wiser and see more possibilities
in relationship structures, she reflects on that experience from a
new perspective.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
If I had known about open marriages and things like that,
I think we would probably still be married because I'm
sure he would have agreed to anything that I wanted.
Speaker 7 (09:47):
To do, because that's.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
Just the kind of guy. He is a good one
and a loyal one. I broke this man's heart and
he was not ever mad at me or should the
animosity towards me a single time. He even told me
that I was brave for doing what I was doing,
which like is almost worse.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Now more than ten years later. He's living in Maui
with his girlfriend, and the last time he was in town,
Sarah saw him over coffee.
Speaker 6 (10:18):
And I basically was kind of asking, like, why why
we can't be friends, like it's been so long now,
like isn't your girlfriend over it or whatever? And he
basically said no, And he's like, do you really think
we could only be friends? And I was like no, yeah,
(10:39):
And then when we hugged good bye, half joking, half
completely serious, I was like, call me when you guys
break up. But like I even if they do break up, ever, like,
why would he ever give me a second chance?
Speaker 7 (10:57):
You know, well, that remains to be seen.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That's not a judgment that you can make, right.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
And I'm not, like I really try to live my life,
not like waiting for Alex to be single again.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
But there is a small part of me that is
doing that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
It's funny to have your ex husband as a what if?
Speaker 7 (11:17):
Yeah right.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Sarah takes really beautiful photos and publishes a very cool
art scene called slow Toast. We'll link her Instagram in
the show notes so you can check it.
Speaker 7 (11:26):
Out.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Even though there's a big what if in Sarah's story,
there's no knowing whether or not an open marriage would
have really worked for them. Right, we can't really go
back in time because consensual non monogamy just isn't the
right choice for everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Okay, patriarchy aside.
Speaker 7 (11:42):
I do think that's when people just prefer to be
with one person.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Great, so they're both.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Legitimate, Yeah, but monogamy has somehow become the default commitment
should be based on desire and choice and honesty.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Okay, but if we just put pier aside for a second,
I just don't think it's possible to love more than
one person.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
There are some who consider it to be a more
evolved relationship style, if you will, but I don't think
that it's the case that it's inherently better or superior
to monogamy. Monogamy consensual non monogamy can both be great.
They're just both right for different kinds of people. And
I think where we run into problems is when people
try to pursue a relationship style that is just not
(12:23):
right for them because they feel pressure to be in
a particular type of relationship.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Something that happens from time to time, Justin says, is
that one partner will be very interested in exploring new
things and the other goes along with the idea, even
though it's not really what they want.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And we would call this sort of coerced non monogamy.
And that's not a good reason to open up your
relationship and people shouldn't be pressured to do things that
they don't want to do. But we do know that
this sometimes happens because let's say you've been in a
relationship for many years and you have this valued, treasured
connection with this other and you don't want to give
(13:01):
up that relationship, but that person also wants to have
other relationships. So sometimes people are willing to agree to
open up the relationship despite the fact that that just
is not what they want at all. And in those situations,
it often doesn't turn out well because it just wasn't
a mutually agreed upon thing in terms of wanting to
(13:23):
go into it in the first place.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Ideally, doctor Lane Miller says, a couple decides to approach
opening up their relationship from a point of strength, So.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Opening up the relationship because you already have great communication
patterns and you're already on the same page. That's when
things tend to go well. But when it's not that mutual,
that's where problems arise.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Justin says in their work they make a very clear
distinction between non consensual non monogamy aka cheating, where someone
isn't being totally upfront about who they're being sexually romantically
involved with, and our favorite word, consensual non monogamy, wherever
ever is on the same page and in agreement.
Speaker 8 (14:03):
Says he loves you and I don't know. I don't
know if he still loves me, which is the things
are better between us now, things have been better.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
We make this pretty clear distinction between them, but those
things can overlap. For example, somebody who's in a polyamorous
relationship can cheat if they break their agreement that they
have with their partner, and somebody who is cheating can
morph into having a consensually nominogamous relationship by coming out
about what it is that they're doing and everybody gets
(14:45):
on the same page about it. Now, is that a
healthy model or a good model for how to enter
the world of consensual nominogamy? Probably not right, because it's
starting with this foundation of deceit where people didn't know
what was upfront. The hallmark of consensual non monography is
that everybody's on the same page and they want the
same things, and there's honesty and truth, and so I
(15:08):
wouldn't say that that's a necessarily common path to say
the world of polyamory or consensual non monogamy. It does
happen sometimes, but I think it would be a very
risky way to go.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
So how about we take a quick break and when
we come back, open a window into a real life
relationship that started from a point of honesty where both
partners agreed from day one that a monogamous relationship was
not what they wanted.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Welcome back today on the show, we're looking at what
consensual non monogamy looks like in real life. And to clarify,
there are a lot of different shapes a relationship that
is consensually non monogamous can take. Here's doctor Justin Lee Miller.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I use the term consensual nominogamy as sort of the
broad umbrella term for anybody who's in a relationship that
is sexually and romantically open where they can have more
than one partner at once.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Polyamory is one of those forms, and.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
In polyamory, you have multiple sexual and or romantic partners simultaneously,
and there's usually love bonds between multiple partners. But polyamory
can look incredibly diverse. I've done some research on polyamory.
We've actually surveyed over three thousand polyamorous people and ask
them about their relationships, and it's just fascinating to look
at the structures that these relationships take. But consensual nominogamy
(16:38):
can also include swinging, where people swap or exchange partners temporarily.
Can also include what we call cuckolding, where it's kind
of like a threesome where there's a couple and then
another person who comes in and one partner is watching
their partner have sex with another person but they're not
physically involved in it. Then there can also just be
the open relationships or monogamy relationships where there's a primary
(17:02):
relationship and there's some amount of freedom to pursue other
sexual connections. So the world of consensual nominogamy is incredibly broad,
and polyamory is just one of many types within it.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
So I want to talk about this for a second. Okay,
So one of those terms is polycule, and what is
a polycule? Polycule is any type of form of polyamory
of people that have some sort of relationship with each other.
It can be romantic and not sexual, or sexual and
not romantic.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Or just.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
A group of people that some of them are being
polyamorous with each other. And I don't understand why it's
called polycule and not polypocket.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, it seems like a really big missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It is, and I've been thinking about it a lot,
and I've been doing some research.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I found another person who calls it.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
A polypocket, and they are poly I am not. So
I feel that I can't fource rooms when it's something
they don't practice. I'm considering just so I can say pollypocket.
So I'm going to say pollypocket.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
In what situations are you going to say polypucket?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Probably any situation that I can.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Okay, good to know. Sometimes partners agree that non monogamy
is ideal, and they agree right up front.
Speaker 9 (18:27):
We both told each other that we thought that an
open relationship made sense and that somebody just sleeping with
one person for the rest of their lives didn't seem possible.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And I agree to that.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
This is Jason Ellis.
Speaker 9 (18:42):
I guess I'm a professional skateboarder who does radio and
now podcasting, and maybe I had a couple of pro
fights and stuff, but I'm really just a podcaster and
a skateboarder.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
He and his wife have an open marriage, and he
identifies as bisexual or pan sexual. The terminology with bisexuality
versus pan sexuality is pretty individualized, and we're not going
to get into the specifics here, but let's just say
Jason has sex with all sorts.
Speaker 9 (19:09):
At first, it was more of a team effort where
both of us would either meet a girl or a
guy and and.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Play around and it was always kind of fun, and.
Speaker 9 (19:19):
We used to drink when this first started, so that
made it easier because it's usually pretty messy. It would
either the girls not really into into her or or
vice versa, or the guy's not into me. Like it
was always it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Was never really a perfect fit.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
It was always that was okay, but I don't really
want to do that again with that person because of this,
this and this, and I'm like, after a couple of
years of just like what are we at? Like, it's
like a ten percent where you hook up and you go, yeah,
here's my number. We should do that again, it's ninety percent.
Oh my god, we made a mistake. But they were
(20:00):
fun stories. But I think it got, it got, you know,
it got I don't know. Sometimes it was you feel
there's like a resentment building because if somebody likes me
or they like her and they don't really like me,
then we're not gonna like kick them out, like it's
still gonna happen, and it's kind of like, wow, this
is this kind of hurts a little bit.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Over the years, things morphed and they moved into different
ways to explore the openness of their relationship.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
Like I also became a lot more gay since I
was in a relationship with my wife.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
She kind of showed me grinder and all that kind
of stuff, and it ended.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Up being a more common occurrence to go off individually
to have sexual experiences, though they weren't always happening with
the same frequency.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
The guys that she hooked up with, they were very rare,
and if it did happen, if they were too emotionally
connected to her, I got jealous, and then it was
okay for me to sleep with guys because we were
not emotionally connecting.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
You know, I wasn't looking for love.
Speaker 9 (21:06):
I was looking for sex obviously meta I'm trying to
get you off as well, but it's it's purely that.
And then through therapy, I started to realize that that's
not really a great way to do things, and that
I have a few childhood problems that are making me
okay with this scenario, and that I should probably evolve
(21:28):
or stop. And then it became like if I hook
up with a guy, I like him, he's my friend
and I trust him, and we sleep with each other
as well. And then and only recently, like right now,
we've actually had like problems with it because all I
(21:49):
do is get sucked off by gay guys and she
doesn't do anything, and it's not fair.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
But Jason sleeping with women was a point of jealousy too.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
Some girl was talking to me and my wife was like, yeah,
you can go sleep with her, and then she saw
text messages of me talking to her in a nice
way and an either and I feel like that was
the same thing that happened to me, and I didn't
want to take I wouldn't stand for her. I was
like that guy hot emojis no way, like fuck this guy.
(22:22):
There's no heart images you can clock my wife and
you can't emoji her. And then from this, you know,
because I knew that it's going to break, we're gonna
it was either I was gonna completely stop, or we're
going to break up, or it was just like I
hated it. I hated my life again because it was
I knew it was breaking my wife's heart.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So but they didn't break up. Instead, they did what
people in healthy relationships do. They made jokes. No, well maybe,
but that's not what I mean. I mean, they talked
about it.
Speaker 9 (22:55):
We've been talking a lot lately, and I'm really bad
at that. I'm reluctant to want to do that. I'm
a terrible communicator. Even with therapy, I'm still just like, no,
nothing's wrong. So she has to like squeeze it out
of me.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
And they agreed that requiring their sexual expiration be devoid
of intimacy or romance might not be realistic and they
needed to try and be okay with that.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
I was like, look, some of those guys that send
you hot emojis if you want to sleep with them,
and they like get old lovey dovey and they want
to take you to dinner and shit you should be
allowed to do that, Like I know, I know that
it's different, Like you're not going to meet in a
hotel room and just go and then when you're done,
you leave. And if he texts you like he's thinking
about you, I'm happy he's thinking about Like if you're
(23:40):
going to have sex with somebody and you know they
really like you and they try to give you everything
that they have, who am I.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
It's just it goes both ways.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
But it's a process.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
At the moment that we talked to Jason, they were
in one of those phases where they were still figuring
it out, feelings were getting hurt, and they were working
through it together.
Speaker 9 (24:01):
And I can tell you that, yes, that's what we're doing.
But I can also tell you honestly that it hurts,
like I'm not I've already had scenarios of how they're
going to talk to each other and how they're going
to have sex. That bums me out, like I'll do
it to myself. It hasn't even happened, and I've already
done it to myself.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So it sounds like you guys are constantly in a
process of like reevaluating and communicating.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Is that would you say that's right, because it changes.
Things have changed. We're not into the same things that
we were into.
Speaker 9 (24:34):
I feel like people we've kind of found different needs
that can be met. And I don't know, you know, Okay,
as insecure as I am and confident, it hurts, but
I think it's kind of healthy because yeah, I feel
bad about it, but I think it's good for me
because I'm doing it and if I and when I,
when she does it to me, it makes it more
(24:56):
obvious what I'm doing and how I better watch.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My fucking pas and cues when it comes to that stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Now, I think it goes without saying that Jason's story
is a great example of how a couple in a
consensually non monogamous relationship has to stay in constant communication
even when it's hard or uncomfortable, and having someone neutral
like a therapist onboard is really helpful.
Speaker 10 (25:20):
All kinds of complicated human situations actually do occur in
real life.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Here's doctor Martha Kelpy, and.
Speaker 10 (25:30):
You know, my job as a therapist is to help
people sort out what happened, why it happened, and what
they want for themselves moving forward. So that's to me,
the crucial question is what do you want for yourself
and are you willing to do what's required to get
from where you are right now to where whatever it
(25:53):
is that you actually want for yourself and of what
they want is a consensually open relationship, it's gonna involve
of becoming really good at knowing what they want from
sort of an internal sense of knowing, sharing that with
a partner or partners, even if it's hard for the
partners to hear.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Which is basically what we heard in Jason's.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
Story, and also being able to access curiosity instead of
getting reactive when somebody else wants to say something that's
important to them that maybe it's hard for you to hear.
So all of that requires quite a bit of getting grounded,
being kind of embodied in yourself, able to hold and
get in touch with your own reality, but also at
(26:37):
the same time holding somebody else's reality as important and valid,
even though there may be some disagreements, and then gradually
a process can unfold from that where people can decide
what's right for them.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Both awareness and communication are so important. So if monogamy
isn't working for you, I think it's important to remember
it's not the only way to have a loving and
meaningful really ship. Sometimes we enter into a relationship with
that understanding from the onset, and other times it's something
that comes up later, maybe because of differences in sexual
desires or personalities.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
You know. I think these days, I'm seeing couples who
are willing to acknowledge those discrepancies. They don't want to
cheat or do they want to give up on having
a sex life.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
This is doctor Ian Kerner.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
I've seen a lot of couples that may be signing
up for what they hope is going to be monogamy.
Maybe they think that they've found their person, or they
have found their person, but there's something about the sex
that isn't working. So I'm really finding that more and
more couples are willing to kind of, for lack of
lack of a better word, sort of outsource the sex
and really engage in some sort of consensual non monogamy,
(27:44):
and very often it can be very successful. So I
admire couples who, you know, are willing to really just
look at the issues head on and say, we don't
want to go underground with this, we don't want to cheat,
but there's really a problem here. But let's not throw
the baby out with the bathwater, and are really willing
to venture into non monogamy, and in fact, that often
(28:05):
brings couples much closer because that really does require communication
and intimacy and trust. So I have a lot of
respect for a lot of people who are on their
relationship journeys and are really opting for non monogamy instead
of a sexless relationship or instead of potentially cheating.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
I really like the phrase outsourcing the sex aspect.
Speaker 12 (28:30):
It's a little like supply chain management. I don't know
where I got that word exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
But jealousy does seem to come up a lot, and
it's really good at fighting against our desire to see
the person or people we love happy.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (28:50):
I mean I think things like non monogamy or PolyAm
or it can be very unpredictable, and I think we
want to have a lot of I guess the term
is called persian you know, when we have a true
desire for our partners to experience happiness, but things can
happen in you know, in surprising ways. Again, I was
working with a couple and they very consensually opened up
(29:13):
their relationship, but this was a heterosexual partner, and the
male partner found that he wasn't able to sexually perform
and that he was just like having a lot of
unpredictability with his sexual function. And he was the one
who was sort of leading the charge on this. And meanwhile,
his partner could have taken it or lead it, left
it and was going along for the ride. But she
(29:37):
was just having this like total sexual liberation, and he
was just filled with frustration and disappointment, and he did
get really jealous.
Speaker 11 (29:46):
He got really jealous that she was having kind of
all of these wild sexual experiences and he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Sounds a little familiar, right, Yeah, a little bet that
couple that he mentioned made the decision together to open
up their marriage, and it's a different path than Melissa
and Nick Tuk in conversations with friends.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Yeah, obviously that that other couple was in therapy together.
And I wonder how common sex and relationship therapy is
in Ireland. We didn't actually ask any of the Irish
folks we talked to about it.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I know from my obsession with Belfast that they're definitely
it's still very very churchy there, you know, very Catholic,
so I assume that people are not as open sexually
as they are in Los Angeles, for example. Yeah, I mean,
I don't think sex therapy is as popular anywhere in
(30:39):
the world as much as it is in Los Angeles
and New.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
York, you know, maybe Miami, maybe Miami.
Speaker 11 (30:45):
I see a lot of situations where couples have come
in and they're like in sexless relationships or one partners
not having as much fun as you know, they want
to be having, and.
Speaker 12 (30:57):
Rather than really wanting to, rather than being willing to
really you know, work on it, they'll.
Speaker 11 (31:04):
Often just go straight to let's you know, open up
the relationship. And non monogamy is something that's really in
the zeitgeist right now, so I feel like a lot
of people are sort of quickly going to that and
sometimes skipping the step of, hey, can we solve this
within our relationship where our agreement originally was really about monogamy.
(31:27):
So I really find that it works when couples can
share and communicate those values early on in a relationship
where there are opportunities, you know, sometimes a couple of
years later to update sort of you know, where are
we in the relationship and maybe you know, introduce the
(31:48):
idea there, but I think non monogamy really doesn't work
as much when you're trying to solve some kind of
problem that exists in the relationship and you're hoping that
if you go to non monogamy that's somehow that will
help with the relationship issue. Like I can't tell you
(32:08):
how many couples I work with where they're like, you know,
we're best friends, we love each other's friends and families,
we go on trips together, like we want to be
in each other's lives forever, but we just don't have sex,
and so we're going to try and you know, kind
of do some non monogamy to satisfy our sexual needs.
(32:29):
And you know, very often those are the situations that
can lead to jealousy, those are the situations that can
lead to dissatisfaction and distrust because for many of us,
it is really hard to split sort of the sex
from the intimacy side of things.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
When coming up with a non monogamy agreement, Ian says
he likes to start slowly and incrementally.
Speaker 11 (32:56):
Ideally, the couples who can do this well have rules
and as few limitations as possible. I mean, I was
once recently working with a couple in a non monogamy agreement,
and they asked, can we share some of our email
correspondents with you? And I was like sure, and I
printed it out and it was like one hundred page contract.
I swear there were just like so many contingencies for
(33:19):
every possible situation and they haven't even even started yet.
I was like, I don't think we're starting on the
right foot here, because ideally, like we just want as
much trust as possible and as few rules as possible,
and we want to like just know that we have
each other's backs and that we are you know, really
prioritizing our relationship and not doing things that we know
(33:42):
would really be you know, outside of our partners comfort zone.
So you know, a lot of couples aren't interested in
exploring non monogamy. I think it's very important for each
partner to be honest about why they want to do it.
And we'll often start like really slowly and do so
in a way that well maybe we could say, well
(34:04):
that didn't work, or let's try this, without feeling like
we've taken the relationship over like an existential cliff.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Well, were they lawyers by any chance.
Speaker 11 (34:17):
They should have been. They're actually struggling artists. They might
have been. They each have a career in law. But yeah,
I guess there was you know in that what is it?
Speaker 12 (34:30):
There's just there's a lot of fear, there's a lot
of anxiety, there's a lot of potential distrust that I
don't think couples that need pages and pages of rules
are necessarily.
Speaker 11 (34:41):
Going to succeed in non monogamy. You know, some of
the couples that I've seen do it best are just
the ones who are like, look, do your thing, I
don't need to know. Sometimes I'm with two partners and
one part they both agree on it, and one partner
is like, but I really want to share. I really
want to talk.
Speaker 12 (34:57):
Because it's really going to be bring us closer together
to all the other the experiences were having. The other
partner is sometimes like, hey, just to your thing, I
really don't need to know.
Speaker 11 (35:06):
It's great you're doing it.
Speaker 12 (35:08):
I love you, go do it, but I really just
don't really want to know. So that's another thing to
get on the same page about how you're going to
communicate about the experiences that you're going to have in
the extent to which you're going to communicate on how
deep you're going to go in that communication.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, especially when there's no guide book to it. Guess
what there actually is a kind of guide book. And
the person who noticed the lack of tools was none
other than doctor Martha Colpe.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So she wrote a.
Speaker 10 (35:40):
Book called Polyamory, a Clinical Toolkit for Therapists and their Clients,
which is directed at a dual audience.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
And her goal was to help train therapists to be
more competent and confident working with consentual non monogamy.
Speaker 10 (35:54):
And also to give couples or individuals or groups of
people who are engaged in open relationships of any kind
a little help if they aren't able to find a
good therapist or if they need some more resources to
support their personal growth. And a lot of people don't
have access to therapy for one reason or another. Either
(36:16):
they can't find a therapist it's polyamory friendly, or they
can't afford it or what have you.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So anyone anywhere can get a copy of the book
and find some guidance.
Speaker 10 (36:25):
So I have a unique viewpoint of a therapist and
also a human who knows a lot of people in
open relationships and I've seen people come through some very
tough situations, and I also debunk a whole lot of
myths that come up commonly, even in books that are
(36:46):
about polyamory and favorable about polyamory.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
For example, she talks about what happens when you have
a difference of opinion with your partner about opening up
your relationship.
Speaker 10 (36:55):
And how would you begin to think through that and
how would you work with it? What do you do
with all of those emotions that you're experiencing, how do
you handle new relationship energy? That kind of thing. And
in addition, the book has twenty five worksheets in it,
so those can be used by regular humans who would
be helped by the worksheets, or they can be used
(37:17):
by therapists in their practice to help support the work
that they're doing.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
There's definitely hope for the relationship between our characters and
conversations with friends, but they should probably get a therapist or.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Pick up a copy of Mafa's book.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
We well link it in the show notes, or both
read therapies.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Is that a word? I think?
Speaker 7 (37:39):
I I know.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
It's how to show.
Speaker 13 (38:01):
Don't know emmy all.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
This show is hosted and produced by me Maggie.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Bowles and me Noa'm Gadweiser.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
It's written and edited by me, with assistant editing by Noah.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the entire Straw Hut team.
Theme music is by Maggie Glass and Square Fish and
Big thanks to Aria Vishay, Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas, and
the Hulu team.
Speaker 13 (38:30):
Magery Smile, Little Child, A Little chow
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Oo
Straw Hut Media A Jay.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Women Together. If it's ten years.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Yeah, Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
In episode ten is our character's first attempt at truly
consensual non monogamy, because everything's out in the open.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
And that got us thinking, what does consensual non monogamy
look like in the real world?
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Wait, Conversations with Friends isn't a docu series. We'll hear
about how a young marriage left behind a big what if.
Then we'll get an inside look at an open marriage
with pro skateboarder and podcast host Jason Ellis, And of
course we're all hands on deck with experts Just and
Ley Miller, Ian Kerner, and Martha Colpy to talk about
what a relationship needs in order for no monogamy to work.
(01:06):
It needs pet chickens that lay fresh eggs every morning,
not exactly, but that would be nice for now. Let's recap.
So this episode, episode ten, big episode, big episode, Melissa
wants to talk to Francis. Yeah, the dread in her
face when she sees that email. It's they externalize this
(01:28):
conversation in the series. So Francis actually goes over to
their house, which is terrifying. I could never do that,
no way. In some ways, it feels like the affair
is a sign of life for Nick, and Melissa sees
that Francis is having a positive effect on him. He's happier,
and so she's willing to try and make it work.
They all have dinner together with Bobby. It's awkward, but
(01:50):
there's a little humor. They're self aware, and Melissa shares
with Francis that she also has an alcoholic father, which
kind of signals to Francis that their relationship is no
longer just theirs.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, no longer hers a. Nick's that's a good point.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Speaking of France's alcoholic father, he's still not answering her
calls and she still has no money. Nick and Francis
start having conversations about children. They're saying I love yous
during sex. They go out on a fancy dinner and
Valerie wants to publish Francis's short story in a literary magazine,
but she gets a weird voicemail from her dad. It's
(02:27):
kind of scary. It turns out he's okay, kind of,
but he's also not really okay.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And meanwhile, Bobby is dealing with her own family drama.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Yeah, they have both, both of them have. Both Bobby
and Francis have family drama going on. At the same time.
They go out with some friends and they have a
great conversation about monogamy spontaneous consent, and then Bobby and
Frances kiss sweetly.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
This episode has their first attempt at truly consensual non
monogamy because everyone is finally on the same page, out
in the open, and so that got us thinking, what
does consensual non monogamy look like in the real world.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Consensual nominogamy and polyamory. Interest in them is on the rise.
We see this in Google searches popular media depictions. People
are increasingly interested in understanding what it might be like
to be able to be in a sexual and romantic
relationship with more than one person at a time.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
If we're going to talk about consensual nominogamy. We have
to bring back doctor Justin leih Miller.
Speaker 5 (03:30):
Now, despite the fact that interest is growing, not that
many people have actually tried consensual nominogamy in real life.
The best available data we have suggested about one in
five North Americans have ever been in some type of
sexually open relationship and only about five percent are currently
practicing it in some form or another. So there's a
(03:50):
pretty big gap between people's fantasy about this, their interest
in it, and the actual reality of it.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So what is holding people back from exploring these alternatives
to monogamy. Well, for starters, there's not really a model
for how to do it.
Speaker 5 (04:05):
They've never seen anyone in their own life practicing this
style of relationship. And there's so much uncertainty with just
having one relationship as it is, so when you start
adding multiple relationships into the mix, the complexity of that
is something that a lot of people just I think
don't feel equipped to explore on their own. And that's
(04:26):
where I think we need more relationship education that exposes
people to different models of having relationships so that people
can choose the kind of relationship that is right for them.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
And a lack of awareness about different kinds of relationships
can lead to some big what ifs. I was spending
time with a friend the other day while we were
working on the show. Her name is Sarah Abramson. She's
an amazing photographer and artist, and she was telling me
a story about when she was married.
Speaker 6 (04:51):
We got married when I was twenty okay, at a
mutual friend's house. And after we got married, my parents
bought us our first house.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
They were married for three years, but together for longer,
and there was a lot of love fare.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
And when I was married to him, I felt like
I had found my tribe with his family. Like his
parents are like punk royalty, Like his mom lived with
sitting Nancy in New York and his dad was in
the Screamers and his aunt was the bass player Black Flag,
and like these were my people and I loved having
(05:25):
them as a family.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I talked to his mom like once a month probably.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
So what happened all those years ago and how does
it relate to our story? Well, back in San Pedro,
where Sarah's from, there's a big music scene.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
And I started developing feelings for this girl named Jessica,
who was the lead singer of a couple bands there,
and she was like that person who's the center of
attention at every party, super loud, super fun, and she
was incredibly talented too. I thought she was the coolest
(06:02):
person I'd ever met. Like that's just how I felt
about her, And that was like the general consensus among
all our Pedro friends, like Jessica's really cool, Like she's
the person you go to when you want to have fun.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah, I can see how that would be massively alluring.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
And when I met Alex, I mean he wasn't that,
but he was like dirty and grungy and punk, and
like as we matured and he got like a real
job computer programming and would go to work in like
nice clothes and let you know, he changed a lot.
(06:41):
And I don't think that we changed in the same way.
Like when you're in a relationship, especially in marriage, I
think it's really hard to grow in unison with someone
like you have to make a conscious effort to do
so and like communicate a lot about it, which obviously
we weren't doing.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, because I think like people are going to grow,
but they're going to grow probably at different paces, so
like you're going to go through one gross Burt and
then they're going to go through another one, and you
guys are going to be constantly.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
So back then, Sarah was having these very intense feelings
not only for someone else, but for another girl, and.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
It was like tearing me apart, Like I felt so guilty,
and I thought that if I could have feelings for
not only another person but a girl, that must have
meant I didn't love him as much as I thought
(07:41):
I did. And I like worked up the courage to
have a talk with him, and like, Okay, to this day,
he is the best man I have ever known and
probably will ever know. He's so smart, stupid smart, but
(08:06):
never makes you feel stupid, very intuitive, like very zen.
He's done a fuck ton of yoga, but he just
like knew like and he sat down next to me
and he was like, you don't want to grow old
with me anymore, do you? And I just like broke
down crying and we talked, and then he moved out
(08:30):
the next day.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Not long after, she ended up dating Jessica, but it
wasn't really what she had imagined.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
My relationship with her was very toxic. My relationship with Alex,
my ex husband, was we literally never fought ever.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
But it sounds like Jessica was like a representation of
like the experimentation and exploration you still felt like you
needed to do because you were a really young person,
like twenty one twenty two at this point.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Right, Yeah, that's a very good insight. I would have
to agree to that. Yeah, she was like party animal crazy.
We literally got each other's names tattooed on each other
after being together for like two weeks.
Speaker 7 (09:11):
Smart decisions.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I mean it is like it's intense. It's like that
feeling of I don't know, uh hi, right totally. Yeah,
new new relationship energy. It's hard to compete with.
Speaker 7 (09:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
As Sarah's gotten older and wiser and see more possibilities
in relationship structures, she reflects on that experience from a
new perspective.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
If I had known about open marriages and things like that,
I think we would probably still be married because I'm
sure he would have agreed to anything that I wanted.
Speaker 7 (09:47):
To do, because that's.
Speaker 6 (09:50):
Just the kind of guy. He is a good one
and a loyal one. I broke this man's heart and
he was not ever mad at me or should the
animosity towards me a single time. He even told me
that I was brave for doing what I was doing,
which like is almost worse.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Now more than ten years later. He's living in Maui
with his girlfriend, and the last time he was in town,
Sarah saw him over coffee.
Speaker 6 (10:18):
And I basically was kind of asking, like, why why
we can't be friends, like it's been so long now,
like isn't your girlfriend over it or whatever? And he
basically said no, And he's like, do you really think
we could only be friends? And I was like no, yeah,
(10:39):
And then when we hugged good bye, half joking, half
completely serious, I was like, call me when you guys
break up. But like I even if they do break up, ever, like,
why would he ever give me a second chance?
Speaker 7 (10:57):
You know, well, that remains to be seen.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That's not a judgment that you can make, right.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
And I'm not, like I really try to live my life,
not like waiting for Alex to be single again.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
But there is a small part of me that is
doing that.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
It's funny to have your ex husband as a what if?
Speaker 7 (11:17):
Yeah right.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Sarah takes really beautiful photos and publishes a very cool
art scene called slow Toast. We'll link her Instagram in
the show notes so you can check it.
Speaker 7 (11:26):
Out.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Even though there's a big what if in Sarah's story,
there's no knowing whether or not an open marriage would
have really worked for them. Right, we can't really go
back in time because consensual non monogamy just isn't the
right choice for everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Okay, patriarchy aside.
Speaker 7 (11:42):
I do think that's when people just prefer to be
with one person.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Great, so they're both.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Legitimate, Yeah, but monogamy has somehow become the default commitment
should be based on desire and choice and honesty.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Okay, but if we just put pier aside for a second,
I just don't think it's possible to love more than
one person.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
There are some who consider it to be a more
evolved relationship style, if you will, but I don't think
that it's the case that it's inherently better or superior
to monogamy. Monogamy consensual non monogamy can both be great.
They're just both right for different kinds of people. And
I think where we run into problems is when people
try to pursue a relationship style that is just not
(12:23):
right for them because they feel pressure to be in
a particular type of relationship.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Something that happens from time to time, Justin says, is
that one partner will be very interested in exploring new
things and the other goes along with the idea, even
though it's not really what they want.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And we would call this sort of coerced non monogamy.
And that's not a good reason to open up your
relationship and people shouldn't be pressured to do things that
they don't want to do. But we do know that
this sometimes happens because let's say you've been in a
relationship for many years and you have this valued, treasured
connection with this other and you don't want to give
(13:01):
up that relationship, but that person also wants to have
other relationships. So sometimes people are willing to agree to
open up the relationship despite the fact that that just
is not what they want at all. And in those situations,
it often doesn't turn out well because it just wasn't
a mutually agreed upon thing in terms of wanting to
(13:23):
go into it in the first place.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Ideally, doctor Lane Miller says, a couple decides to approach
opening up their relationship from a point of strength, So.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Opening up the relationship because you already have great communication
patterns and you're already on the same page. That's when
things tend to go well. But when it's not that mutual,
that's where problems arise.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Justin says in their work they make a very clear
distinction between non consensual non monogamy aka cheating, where someone
isn't being totally upfront about who they're being sexually romantically
involved with, and our favorite word, consensual non monogamy, wherever
ever is on the same page and in agreement.
Speaker 8 (14:03):
Says he loves you and I don't know. I don't
know if he still loves me, which is the things
are better between us now, things have been better.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
We make this pretty clear distinction between them, but those
things can overlap. For example, somebody who's in a polyamorous
relationship can cheat if they break their agreement that they
have with their partner, and somebody who is cheating can
morph into having a consensually nominogamous relationship by coming out
about what it is that they're doing and everybody gets
(14:45):
on the same page about it. Now, is that a
healthy model or a good model for how to enter
the world of consensual nominogamy? Probably not right, because it's
starting with this foundation of deceit where people didn't know
what was upfront. The hallmark of consensual non monography is
that everybody's on the same page and they want the
same things, and there's honesty and truth, and so I
(15:08):
wouldn't say that that's a necessarily common path to say
the world of polyamory or consensual non monogamy. It does
happen sometimes, but I think it would be a very
risky way to go.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
So how about we take a quick break and when
we come back, open a window into a real life
relationship that started from a point of honesty where both
partners agreed from day one that a monogamous relationship was
not what they wanted.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Welcome back today on the show, we're looking at what
consensual non monogamy looks like in real life. And to clarify,
there are a lot of different shapes a relationship that
is consensually non monogamous can take. Here's doctor Justin Lee Miller.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
I use the term consensual nominogamy as sort of the
broad umbrella term for anybody who's in a relationship that
is sexually and romantically open where they can have more
than one partner at once.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Polyamory is one of those forms, and.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
In polyamory, you have multiple sexual and or romantic partners simultaneously,
and there's usually love bonds between multiple partners. But polyamory
can look incredibly diverse. I've done some research on polyamory.
We've actually surveyed over three thousand polyamorous people and ask
them about their relationships, and it's just fascinating to look
at the structures that these relationships take. But consensual nominogamy
(16:38):
can also include swinging, where people swap or exchange partners temporarily.
Can also include what we call cuckolding, where it's kind
of like a threesome where there's a couple and then
another person who comes in and one partner is watching
their partner have sex with another person but they're not
physically involved in it. Then there can also just be
the open relationships or monogamy relationships where there's a primary
(17:02):
relationship and there's some amount of freedom to pursue other
sexual connections. So the world of consensual nominogamy is incredibly broad,
and polyamory is just one of many types within it.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
So I want to talk about this for a second. Okay,
So one of those terms is polycule, and what is
a polycule? Polycule is any type of form of polyamory
of people that have some sort of relationship with each other.
It can be romantic and not sexual, or sexual and
not romantic.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Or just.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
A group of people that some of them are being
polyamorous with each other. And I don't understand why it's
called polycule and not polypocket.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yeah, it seems like a really big missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It is, and I've been thinking about it a lot,
and I've been doing some research.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
I found another person who calls it.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
A polypocket, and they are poly I am not. So
I feel that I can't fource rooms when it's something
they don't practice. I'm considering just so I can say pollypocket.
So I'm going to say pollypocket.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
In what situations are you going to say polypucket?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Probably any situation that I can.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Okay, good to know. Sometimes partners agree that non monogamy
is ideal, and they agree right up front.
Speaker 9 (18:27):
We both told each other that we thought that an
open relationship made sense and that somebody just sleeping with
one person for the rest of their lives didn't seem possible.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And I agree to that.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
This is Jason Ellis.
Speaker 9 (18:42):
I guess I'm a professional skateboarder who does radio and
now podcasting, and maybe I had a couple of pro
fights and stuff, but I'm really just a podcaster and
a skateboarder.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
He and his wife have an open marriage, and he
identifies as bisexual or pan sexual. The terminology with bisexuality
versus pan sexuality is pretty individualized, and we're not going
to get into the specifics here, but let's just say
Jason has sex with all sorts.
Speaker 9 (19:09):
At first, it was more of a team effort where
both of us would either meet a girl or a
guy and and.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Play around and it was always kind of fun, and.
Speaker 9 (19:19):
We used to drink when this first started, so that
made it easier because it's usually pretty messy. It would
either the girls not really into into her or or
vice versa, or the guy's not into me. Like it
was always it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Was never really a perfect fit.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
It was always that was okay, but I don't really
want to do that again with that person because of this,
this and this, and I'm like, after a couple of
years of just like what are we at? Like, it's
like a ten percent where you hook up and you go, yeah,
here's my number. We should do that again, it's ninety percent.
Oh my god, we made a mistake. But they were
(20:00):
fun stories. But I think it got, it got, you know,
it got I don't know. Sometimes it was you feel
there's like a resentment building because if somebody likes me
or they like her and they don't really like me,
then we're not gonna like kick them out, like it's
still gonna happen, and it's kind of like, wow, this
is this kind of hurts a little bit.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Over the years, things morphed and they moved into different
ways to explore the openness of their relationship.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
Like I also became a lot more gay since I
was in a relationship with my wife.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
She kind of showed me grinder and all that kind
of stuff, and it ended.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Up being a more common occurrence to go off individually
to have sexual experiences, though they weren't always happening with
the same frequency.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
The guys that she hooked up with, they were very rare,
and if it did happen, if they were too emotionally
connected to her, I got jealous, and then it was
okay for me to sleep with guys because we were
not emotionally connecting.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
You know, I wasn't looking for love.
Speaker 9 (21:06):
I was looking for sex obviously meta I'm trying to
get you off as well, but it's it's purely that.
And then through therapy, I started to realize that that's
not really a great way to do things, and that
I have a few childhood problems that are making me
okay with this scenario, and that I should probably evolve
(21:28):
or stop. And then it became like if I hook
up with a guy, I like him, he's my friend
and I trust him, and we sleep with each other
as well. And then and only recently, like right now,
we've actually had like problems with it because all I
(21:49):
do is get sucked off by gay guys and she
doesn't do anything, and it's not fair.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
But Jason sleeping with women was a point of jealousy too.
Speaker 9 (21:58):
Some girl was talking to me and my wife was like, yeah,
you can go sleep with her, and then she saw
text messages of me talking to her in a nice
way and an either and I feel like that was
the same thing that happened to me, and I didn't
want to take I wouldn't stand for her. I was
like that guy hot emojis no way, like fuck this guy.
(22:22):
There's no heart images you can clock my wife and
you can't emoji her. And then from this, you know,
because I knew that it's going to break, we're gonna
it was either I was gonna completely stop, or we're
going to break up, or it was just like I
hated it. I hated my life again because it was
I knew it was breaking my wife's heart.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So but they didn't break up. Instead, they did what
people in healthy relationships do. They made jokes. No, well maybe,
but that's not what I mean. I mean, they talked
about it.
Speaker 9 (22:55):
We've been talking a lot lately, and I'm really bad
at that. I'm reluctant to want to do that. I'm
a terrible communicator. Even with therapy, I'm still just like, no,
nothing's wrong. So she has to like squeeze it out
of me.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
And they agreed that requiring their sexual expiration be devoid
of intimacy or romance might not be realistic and they
needed to try and be okay with that.
Speaker 9 (23:17):
I was like, look, some of those guys that send
you hot emojis if you want to sleep with them,
and they like get old lovey dovey and they want
to take you to dinner and shit you should be
allowed to do that, Like I know, I know that
it's different, Like you're not going to meet in a
hotel room and just go and then when you're done,
you leave. And if he texts you like he's thinking
about you, I'm happy he's thinking about Like if you're
(23:40):
going to have sex with somebody and you know they
really like you and they try to give you everything
that they have, who am I.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
It's just it goes both ways.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
But it's a process.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
At the moment that we talked to Jason, they were
in one of those phases where they were still figuring
it out, feelings were getting hurt, and they were working
through it together.
Speaker 9 (24:01):
And I can tell you that, yes, that's what we're doing.
But I can also tell you honestly that it hurts,
like I'm not I've already had scenarios of how they're
going to talk to each other and how they're going
to have sex. That bums me out, like I'll do
it to myself. It hasn't even happened, and I've already
done it to myself.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So it sounds like you guys are constantly in a
process of like reevaluating and communicating.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Is that would you say that's right, because it changes.
Things have changed. We're not into the same things that
we were into.
Speaker 9 (24:34):
I feel like people we've kind of found different needs
that can be met. And I don't know, you know, Okay,
as insecure as I am and confident, it hurts, but
I think it's kind of healthy because yeah, I feel
bad about it, but I think it's good for me
because I'm doing it and if I and when I,
when she does it to me, it makes it more
(24:56):
obvious what I'm doing and how I better watch.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
My fucking pas and cues when it comes to that stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Now, I think it goes without saying that Jason's story
is a great example of how a couple in a
consensually non monogamous relationship has to stay in constant communication
even when it's hard or uncomfortable, and having someone neutral
like a therapist onboard is really helpful.
Speaker 10 (25:20):
All kinds of complicated human situations actually do occur in
real life.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Here's doctor Martha Kelpy, and.
Speaker 10 (25:30):
You know, my job as a therapist is to help
people sort out what happened, why it happened, and what
they want for themselves moving forward. So that's to me,
the crucial question is what do you want for yourself
and are you willing to do what's required to get
from where you are right now to where whatever it
(25:53):
is that you actually want for yourself and of what
they want is a consensually open relationship, it's gonna involve
of becoming really good at knowing what they want from
sort of an internal sense of knowing, sharing that with
a partner or partners, even if it's hard for the
partners to hear.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Which is basically what we heard in Jason's.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
Story, and also being able to access curiosity instead of
getting reactive when somebody else wants to say something that's
important to them that maybe it's hard for you to hear.
So all of that requires quite a bit of getting grounded,
being kind of embodied in yourself, able to hold and
get in touch with your own reality, but also at
(26:37):
the same time holding somebody else's reality as important and valid,
even though there may be some disagreements, and then gradually
a process can unfold from that where people can decide
what's right for them.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Both awareness and communication are so important. So if monogamy
isn't working for you, I think it's important to remember
it's not the only way to have a loving and
meaningful really ship. Sometimes we enter into a relationship with
that understanding from the onset, and other times it's something
that comes up later, maybe because of differences in sexual
desires or personalities.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
You know. I think these days, I'm seeing couples who
are willing to acknowledge those discrepancies. They don't want to
cheat or do they want to give up on having
a sex life.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
This is doctor Ian Kerner.
Speaker 11 (27:21):
I've seen a lot of couples that may be signing
up for what they hope is going to be monogamy.
Maybe they think that they've found their person, or they
have found their person, but there's something about the sex
that isn't working. So I'm really finding that more and
more couples are willing to kind of, for lack of
lack of a better word, sort of outsource the sex
and really engage in some sort of consensual non monogamy,
(27:44):
and very often it can be very successful. So I
admire couples who, you know, are willing to really just
look at the issues head on and say, we don't
want to go underground with this, we don't want to cheat,
but there's really a problem here. But let's not throw
the baby out with the bathwater, and are really willing
to venture into non monogamy, and in fact, that often
(28:05):
brings couples much closer because that really does require communication
and intimacy and trust. So I have a lot of
respect for a lot of people who are on their
relationship journeys and are really opting for non monogamy instead
of a sexless relationship or instead of potentially cheating.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
I really like the phrase outsourcing the sex aspect.
Speaker 12 (28:30):
It's a little like supply chain management. I don't know
where I got that word exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
It's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
But jealousy does seem to come up a lot, and
it's really good at fighting against our desire to see
the person or people we love happy.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (28:50):
I mean I think things like non monogamy or PolyAm
or it can be very unpredictable, and I think we
want to have a lot of I guess the term
is called persian you know, when we have a true
desire for our partners to experience happiness, but things can
happen in you know, in surprising ways. Again, I was
working with a couple and they very consensually opened up
(29:13):
their relationship, but this was a heterosexual partner, and the
male partner found that he wasn't able to sexually perform
and that he was just like having a lot of
unpredictability with his sexual function. And he was the one
who was sort of leading the charge on this. And meanwhile,
his partner could have taken it or lead it, left
it and was going along for the ride. But she
(29:37):
was just having this like total sexual liberation, and he
was just filled with frustration and disappointment, and he did
get really jealous.
Speaker 11 (29:46):
He got really jealous that she was having kind of
all of these wild sexual experiences and he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Sounds a little familiar, right, Yeah, a little bet that
couple that he mentioned made the decision together to open
up their marriage, and it's a different path than Melissa
and Nick Tuk in conversations with friends.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Yeah, obviously that that other couple was in therapy together.
And I wonder how common sex and relationship therapy is
in Ireland. We didn't actually ask any of the Irish
folks we talked to about it.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I know from my obsession with Belfast that they're definitely
it's still very very churchy there, you know, very Catholic,
so I assume that people are not as open sexually
as they are in Los Angeles, for example. Yeah, I mean,
I don't think sex therapy is as popular anywhere in
(30:39):
the world as much as it is in Los Angeles
and New.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
York, you know, maybe Miami, maybe Miami.
Speaker 11 (30:45):
I see a lot of situations where couples have come
in and they're like in sexless relationships or one partners
not having as much fun as you know, they want
to be having, and.
Speaker 12 (30:57):
Rather than really wanting to, rather than being willing to
really you know, work on it, they'll.
Speaker 11 (31:04):
Often just go straight to let's you know, open up
the relationship. And non monogamy is something that's really in
the zeitgeist right now, so I feel like a lot
of people are sort of quickly going to that and
sometimes skipping the step of, hey, can we solve this
within our relationship where our agreement originally was really about monogamy.
(31:27):
So I really find that it works when couples can
share and communicate those values early on in a relationship
where there are opportunities, you know, sometimes a couple of
years later to update sort of you know, where are
we in the relationship and maybe you know, introduce the
(31:48):
idea there, but I think non monogamy really doesn't work
as much when you're trying to solve some kind of
problem that exists in the relationship and you're hoping that
if you go to non monogamy that's somehow that will
help with the relationship issue. Like I can't tell you
(32:08):
how many couples I work with where they're like, you know,
we're best friends, we love each other's friends and families,
we go on trips together, like we want to be
in each other's lives forever, but we just don't have sex,
and so we're going to try and you know, kind
of do some non monogamy to satisfy our sexual needs.
(32:29):
And you know, very often those are the situations that
can lead to jealousy, those are the situations that can
lead to dissatisfaction and distrust because for many of us,
it is really hard to split sort of the sex
from the intimacy side of things.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
When coming up with a non monogamy agreement, Ian says
he likes to start slowly and incrementally.
Speaker 11 (32:56):
Ideally, the couples who can do this well have rules
and as few limitations as possible. I mean, I was
once recently working with a couple in a non monogamy agreement,
and they asked, can we share some of our email
correspondents with you? And I was like sure, and I
printed it out and it was like one hundred page contract.
I swear there were just like so many contingencies for
(33:19):
every possible situation and they haven't even even started yet.
I was like, I don't think we're starting on the
right foot here, because ideally, like we just want as
much trust as possible and as few rules as possible,
and we want to like just know that we have
each other's backs and that we are you know, really
prioritizing our relationship and not doing things that we know
(33:42):
would really be you know, outside of our partners comfort zone.
So you know, a lot of couples aren't interested in
exploring non monogamy. I think it's very important for each
partner to be honest about why they want to do it.
And we'll often start like really slowly and do so
in a way that well maybe we could say, well
(34:04):
that didn't work, or let's try this, without feeling like
we've taken the relationship over like an existential cliff.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
Well, were they lawyers by any chance.
Speaker 11 (34:17):
They should have been. They're actually struggling artists. They might
have been. They each have a career in law. But yeah,
I guess there was you know in that what is it?
Speaker 12 (34:30):
There's just there's a lot of fear, there's a lot
of anxiety, there's a lot of potential distrust that I
don't think couples that need pages and pages of rules
are necessarily.
Speaker 11 (34:41):
Going to succeed in non monogamy. You know, some of
the couples that I've seen do it best are just
the ones who are like, look, do your thing, I
don't need to know. Sometimes I'm with two partners and
one part they both agree on it, and one partner
is like, but I really want to share. I really
want to talk.
Speaker 12 (34:57):
Because it's really going to be bring us closer together
to all the other the experiences were having. The other
partner is sometimes like, hey, just to your thing, I
really don't need to know.
Speaker 11 (35:06):
It's great you're doing it.
Speaker 12 (35:08):
I love you, go do it, but I really just
don't really want to know. So that's another thing to
get on the same page about how you're going to
communicate about the experiences that you're going to have in
the extent to which you're going to communicate on how
deep you're going to go in that communication.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Yeah, especially when there's no guide book to it. Guess
what there actually is a kind of guide book. And
the person who noticed the lack of tools was none
other than doctor Martha Colpe.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So she wrote a.
Speaker 10 (35:40):
Book called Polyamory, a Clinical Toolkit for Therapists and their Clients,
which is directed at a dual audience.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
And her goal was to help train therapists to be
more competent and confident working with consentual non monogamy.
Speaker 10 (35:54):
And also to give couples or individuals or groups of
people who are engaged in open relationships of any kind
a little help if they aren't able to find a
good therapist or if they need some more resources to
support their personal growth. And a lot of people don't
have access to therapy for one reason or another. Either
(36:16):
they can't find a therapist it's polyamory friendly, or they
can't afford it or what have you.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
So anyone anywhere can get a copy of the book
and find some guidance.
Speaker 10 (36:25):
So I have a unique viewpoint of a therapist and
also a human who knows a lot of people in
open relationships and I've seen people come through some very
tough situations, and I also debunk a whole lot of
myths that come up commonly, even in books that are
(36:46):
about polyamory and favorable about polyamory.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
For example, she talks about what happens when you have
a difference of opinion with your partner about opening up
your relationship.
Speaker 10 (36:55):
And how would you begin to think through that and
how would you work with it? What do you do
with all of those emotions that you're experiencing, how do
you handle new relationship energy? That kind of thing. And
in addition, the book has twenty five worksheets in it,
so those can be used by regular humans who would
be helped by the worksheets, or they can be used
(37:17):
by therapists in their practice to help support the work
that they're doing.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
There's definitely hope for the relationship between our characters and
conversations with friends, but they should probably get a therapist or.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Pick up a copy of Mafa's book.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
We well link it in the show notes, or both
read therapies.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Is that a word? I think?
Speaker 7 (37:39):
I I know.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
It's how to show.
Speaker 13 (38:01):
Don't know emmy all.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
This show is hosted and produced by me Maggie.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Bowles and me Noa'm Gadweiser.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
It's written and edited by me, with assistant editing by Noah.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the entire Straw Hut team.
Theme music is by Maggie Glass and Square Fish and
Big thanks to Aria Vishay, Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas, and
the Hulu team.
Speaker 13 (38:30):
Magery Smile, Little Child, A Little chow
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Oo
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