May 16, 2022 • 27 mins
Why are we so self destructive and how do we grow past it? Dr. C. Sue Carter gives us a scientific explanation for our urge to fail at natural selection. Writer Christine Wiedenbach somehow makes the image of a burning bridge inspirational. OBGYN Peter Weiss dispels some myths about endometriosis. And Rachel Bell teaches us that Twitter is a pretty handy tool for getting over a breakup.
Dr. C. Sue Carter
https://kinseyinstitute.org/about/profiles/cscarter.php
Dr. Peter Weiss
https://www.rdwhc.com/provider/dr-peter-weiss
Rachel Bell
http://rachelbell.info/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
Dr. C. Sue Carter
https://kinseyinstitute.org/about/profiles/cscarter.php
Dr. Peter Weiss
https://www.rdwhc.com/provider/dr-peter-weiss
Rachel Bell
http://rachelbell.info/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw hot Media.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You pay the wine price like here is a bottle troubles.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers.
Speaker 4 (00:12):
I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Today. We want to know why are we so self
destructive and how do we grow past it?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Doctor c Sue Carter gives us a scientific explanation for
our urge to fail at natural selection.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Seems counterintuitive, right then? Writer Christine Wiedenbach somehow makes the
image of a burning bridge inspirational.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Obeg An Peter Weiss dispels some myths about animitiosis.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Those pesky and dometriosis misconceptions.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
And we learned that Twitter is a pretty powerful tool
for getting over a breakup. Who knew first? Let's recap.
Frances asks Nick about his depression. He tells her he
was hospitalized for six weeks. They talk about children. He
meets her mom.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Francis is diagnosed with endometriosis and she hides it from everybody.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Nick tells Frances he and Melissa started sleeping together again.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Francis ends up going to Nick's birthday party. She does
not handle herself well. She storms out, crying. Actually, Melissa
should bobby.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Frances's short story. There's a confrontation and Francis freezes.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
So why couldn't you show it to me?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Then?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And then Frances and Nick meet up at a park
and they break up.
Speaker 6 (01:36):
I don't figure, and oh why do we do stupid things?
Speaker 7 (01:46):
Why?
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Why? Why not just be happy all the time?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
This is neurobiologist doctor c Sue Carter. Because self destructive
tendencies seem so antithetical to survival and evolution, we figured
there must be biological explanation.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Most of us have sufficient food, we have shelter. So
what pushes us back into these primitive states? Whether they
be then self destructive behaviors a kind of behavior that
is associated with so called borderline symptoms where person will
(02:23):
cut themselves or use drugs or alcohol in a self
destructive way, or even suicide, which makes not much biological sense,
but which from an emotional point of view, may seem
at the moment like the only solution my thinking is,
(02:46):
and unfortunately we can't fix this with hormones, but my
thinking is that the old system pushes its way through
under conditions of acute stress.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Benefit of love when it's working well is a sense
of safety, not only consciously but also in our bodies.
And the minute the relationship starts to shift out of safety,
maybe one partner isn't happy and wants to leave.
Speaker 6 (03:10):
These things somehow create a kind of vacuum in our
nervous system, and it's very common for people to try
to fill that chemically with drugs, with substances, with excitement,
anything they can do to get out of that sense
(03:33):
of loneliness, which has now been very well established to
be one of the worst things that can happen to people.
Feeling alone is a kind of ultimate sense of threat
and danger.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And that puts our bodies into a different physiological state,
one where we feel vulnerable.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
A physiological state in which we don't know, oh, sometimes
just don't know what to do. Our cognitive functions seem
to get a little out of whack, and that's a
huge problem.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It's especially a problem for people who experience lack of
safety in early life.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
That safety seems to lay down the foundation, and that
foundation is based, in my thinking, on the receptors for
oxytocinin based presson and you start to see that system calibrated.
So then when something happens later, those individuals with what
(04:36):
we might call abandonment or trauma histories are very disruptive.
They have a hard time being by themselves. Sometimes you'll
see what's called borderline personality up here. I don't think
that's a disease. I think that's a state. But for
(04:57):
some people, if you're in that, if you're in that
state all the time, it's very hard to get anything
done because your body's kind in a constant state of uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Can you tell us a little bit about your experience
with self destructive behavior?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh my goodness, Well, you know, get into the right place.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
This is writer Christine Wheedenbach. She actually got her mfan
creative writing at the same place as my mom did.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Part of me thinks it's boredom or like I know
I have like I've been diagnosed with BPD. As a
creative person, you know, you, kind of destruction is kind
of a form of creation. So you know, it makes
me feel it one with one with my element too,
you know, So how do you see it come up
in relationships? So people will get ever so close to
(05:49):
me and that at some point, like I maybe rely
on them too much or maybe there's like some sort
of like individualistic thing going on there. But I could
only get so close to people before I just like,
let's let's burn this bridge. How could we burn this bridge?
(06:10):
Obviously I assume some kind of like protection method, but uh,
but obviously you know your sacrifice a bit in that protection,
there's a reason that you end up doing that, and
it's like you have to kind of deal with the
reason before you can deal with your arson.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It's good advice and it's a very visual phrase too.
I'm imagining a poster, you know, one of those inspirational
ones that hang up in a guidance counselor's office. There's
a picture of a bridge engulfed in flames, and then
maybe like block letters or even nice cursive that says,
you have to deal with your reason before you can
deal with your arson, and.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
How do you burn those bridges? Particularly if I may.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Ask basically becoming obsessive or jealous or that because that
could look like a number of different things with a
number different people, right, kind of like letting the relationships
sour as a means of preserving yourself. But like, I
know I've done like that. You know, way too many texts,
(07:16):
just like total irrational fighting for no reason. I liked
that a lot when I was young.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So where are you at now, like in terms of
like your own like reflections on you know, the way
that things have gone in the past, and then how
you want to move things forward in the future.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I'm the happiest I've ever been. I was able to,
I was fortunate enough to lay down some roots. I'm
doing a career that works for me. I'm like achieving
my goals, and I kind of like a bit of
a solitary life. I like, I like people in my life,
(08:03):
but I like them only so much because I'm you know,
I just like being alone and I like that time
is kind of sacred to me. I like my life
right now. Yeah, That's where I'm at right now. That's
amazing to hear. I don't think that, Like, I don't
think that I would have recognized myself if I was Like,
(08:24):
what if I went back and like my twenty year
old self saw me today. I don't think she'd recognize me,
but I think that in the end, I'm glad I
was her, you know, like it all worked out in
the end, but dang, I bumped along the wood.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah. And also like things continue to work out right,
like you know, things you know at thirty, Like I'm
thirty two, for example, and I know that, like things
are going to continue to change weirdly enough, like you know,
(09:05):
I'm I feel much better about where I am now
in my life as a thirty two year old than
I did as a twenty five year old. I was
a lot more like fucking totally falling apart, not that
I'm not falling apart every day now, but.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Much less, uh dire way. And I also stylized now
very you know what you're doing about Actually I think
it was more stylized back then. I think it was
a lot harder. Everything was like hotter. Back I don't know,
just remember everything was hotter. I don't thinking about it. It
was like I was really doing something exactly. But at
(09:43):
least now it's a little bit you know, this water
is a little shallower, maybe, you know.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And like moving forward, I'm like, Okay, so I haven't
necessarily figured.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It out, but I know that like things are going
to change.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
Life is so adaptive it just keeps recreating other ways
to make things work. But I think what most of
us are interested in is some kind of optimal life,
some kind of world in which we are not anxious
all the time, in which we feel some degree of safety,
(10:34):
ideally inside of ourselves. Okay, so that we can then
interact in a healthy way with other humans. And that's
a tall order. That's a hard thing to do, because
we are so well designed to be on the alert
(10:54):
for danger.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Our minds and our bodies are very strange. Let's take
a quick break, and when we come back, a crash
course in endometriosis with doctor Peter Weiss and a very
creative and not destructive way to cope with heartbreak.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Welcome back today. We're talking about self destructive behavior and
how to grow past it. And in this episode of
Conversations with Friends, Francis gets a diagnosis that kind of
turns our world upside down.
Speaker 8 (11:27):
I tell patients that endimitriosis is like real estate. It's
all about location, location, location, So some people it's debilitating,
others there's no problem at all.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
This is doctor Peter Weiss.
Speaker 8 (11:39):
I'm Board certified obgyn. I graduated the University of Michigan,
a School of Medicine, the co founder of the Rodeo
Drive Women's Health Center.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Also, he may or may not be my uncle.
Speaker 8 (11:51):
Dmitriosis is a fairly common disorder. It's found in about
ten percent of reproductive age women. It's ninety nine point
plus percent non malignant, and it can cause what we
call this minerhea or very painful periods, heavy periods, pain
with sex, you have chronic pain. Really what it is,
(12:14):
it's a little bit harder to explain, but the lining
of the uterus is called the endometrium. It's only a
few cell layers thick, and that's where those cells are
supposed to live. But when those cells sort of move
out and go to different parts of the body, that's
what we call endometriosis. And really what endometriosis is, it's
(12:36):
an inflammatory response, So it causes inflammation in those areas
and those cells live, they take the blood supply of
nutrition for whatever part of the organs they sort of
invade into it.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And I've heard that enometriosis is really hard to diagnose.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Why is that so?
Speaker 8 (12:53):
First of all, you're talking about microscopic cells, so it's
hard to diagnose things with microscopic cells. There's no blood test.
In the old days, we used to diagnose endometriosis doing
what's called a laparoscopy.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
We stick a.
Speaker 8 (13:05):
Tube into a woman's belly and we look. But it's
progressed so far that we no longer do that. That
we can diagnosis by symptoms, and it's somewhat of a
diagnosis by exclusion, even though we do include certain things.
And then we would treat it because the treatments are
relatively mild unless you get towards surgery, so we don't
(13:25):
need to do surgery just to diagnose what we think
is there.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
And how do you treat it.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
It's a wide range and it's very simple, and sometimes
it's just taking nonsteroidals such as i'd beprofen. Another simple
way of doing it is birth control pills. Estrogen and
progesterone pills also work with simple things like acupuncture because
that's pain control. You could do progesterone only pills no estrogen.
There are injections, something called GnRH agen is something like lupron,
(13:53):
which sort of puts you in a pseudo menopauset there
are other people which will have more patience than me,
and diet can control if you eat foods high in
Omega three fatty acids, they tend to be anti inflammatory,
reducing red meat, increasing fruits and vegetables. And then here
comes the hardest part, is limiting caffeine and alcohol. So
(14:13):
those do help some benefits, but doesn't work with everyone.
So that's the wide range. And then the last one
is surgery. That's the one that we usually send to
a special surgeon that meticulously go through the laptisk of
those tubes and they peel off the endometriosis wherever you can.
Now remember that's not curing it. That's just reducing the
(14:33):
amount of endometrosis and hopefully reducing the pain.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
So it sounds like all of the treatment is really
just pain management. Is that accurate exactly?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
That's the sad part.
Speaker 8 (14:46):
But most endometriosis will resolve when you go into menopause.
It doesn't always go away, but it's much much better.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Does endometriosis resolve on its own without menopause or is
it more of a life long experience?
Speaker 8 (15:01):
I tend to tell people it's a chronic illness. There'll
be ups and downs like anything. Anywhere from thirty to
fifty percent of women with endemitiosis can have fertility issues.
But it's I'm not trying to imply that if you
have indemetriosis you will have a problem. Again, it's about
the location. So some endimitriosis could be mild and you
have real significant problem getting pregnant. You could have significant
(15:24):
endemytoss and have no problem. And if you think about
endimitosis being estrogen dependent, you have more estrogen over those
greater number of years because if you have multiple berths,
you have less chance of enemy shoss. But remember you're
not having your cycle, You're not having that estrogen push
for those times while you're pregnant in nursing, so things
(15:45):
like that.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
So pregnancy can ease andrometriosis basically in some places.
Speaker 8 (15:52):
Because it's similar to if I put you on a
pill to turn off your periods completely, that's what a
pregnancy would do. You're not getting your periods. I'm not
telling you guys, get pregnant now.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
My uncle definitely told us to get pregnant. You are
a thirty I am, but what I really want to
talk about is what the doctor tells Francis.
Speaker 9 (16:13):
Have you heard of endometriosis, Francis. It's a condition where
cells from inside the uteris grow elsewhere in the body.
These cells are benign as in their non cancerous, but
endometriosis is complicated. It's difficult to diagnose, and there's no
cure as such.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
It's not uncommon. One in ten women suffer from it.
Speaker 9 (16:33):
There are surgical interventions, but they're only really necessary in
particularly severe cases. So our focus right now is pain
management and preventing it from becoming debilitating. There's one other thing, right, Unfortunately,
this can lead to fertility issues for some.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Women, right, but there's much more we can do about that.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Now.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
This really doesn't mean what it used to. Can I
ask if you're trying to conceive or planning to in
the near future.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No, I mean that's not something I'm currently Yeah, So
you and I reacted to this differently, quite differently.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I think that this doctor was not very fair to Francis.
To be fair, in the book, it's even worse when
you're in a doctor's office and you're alone and then
you hear words like uncurable and pain management and high
risk pregnancies or whatever. I would be spiraling too.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, I think that's interesting that you took from that
interaction with the doctor the exact same thing that Francis did,
Whereas when I watched it, I guess maybe because I'm
more familiar with endometriosis. I was like, it's okay, it's
not the end of the world. You don't know anything yet.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
What I saw is I my Jewish mother's side kind
of came to fight and was like, no, Frances, it's okay.
She's not telling you everything. I feel like there's so
many things that she could have told her that she
didn't that I want to tell Francis that. I think
we should let doctor Weiss tell Francis.
Speaker 8 (18:25):
So a true physician is where you show compassion and
caring and not try to scare the shit out of somebody. So, yes,
you are at a higher risk of having fertility issues,
but it absolutely does not mean you cannot get pregnant
or will not get pregnant. Every patient comes to me,
out of ten patients, one person will have an easier
(18:46):
chance of getting pregnant than another, and some will have
a harder chance. I don't know who those are and
just because you have endimitus's doesn't mean you will have
a problem.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Do you have any tips for people talking to doctors
about the subjects.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
What I always tell patients and I teach the residence
the patient has to have all her concerns answer. Whenever
I leave a room after I see a patient, I
always ask have I answered all your questions? The sad
thing is most people will say yes, yes, even if
I haven't. So I'll tell patient. Look, if I gave
(19:23):
you a lot of information. Let's say you're the first
time Maggie, you came in. I told you, sadly you
have endemetriosis and you have a lot of questions and concerns.
I would tell you to do some research. So you
go to a respected healthcare site that will give you
honest information, not false information about endometriosis, and you can
know the very basic ones like from the Mayo Clinic,
(19:43):
Cleveland Clinic, Hopkins. You pick your academic institution of choice
that will help you sort of guide you along the way.
Be careful of a lot of the sites out there,
because I'm sure you can find it. A site which
will claim that endometriosis will cause you to grow a
third leg.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Do you still want children?
Speaker 7 (20:05):
Yeah, but that's off the table.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
You don't know, you're still young.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
What.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I think you'd be a great dad.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You have a kind nature.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
And you're very loving.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The endometriosis news hits Francis especially hard, I think because
she's attached a lot of her self worth in her
relationship with Nick to her ability and her willingness to
have kids. And so this is her one kind of
bargaining chip of like, but I will have your babies.
It's what she has to make her argument for her
(20:59):
role in Nick.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
I see what you're saying. I just don't think that
she's plans ahead that much. I think it's a genuine
love thing with Francis.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I don't mean it to say that she's calculating. I
just mean it to say that that she's attached some
self worth in it. I think it has to do
with her own lack of self confidence and self esteem. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So, Yeah, it hits her very hard than the news
about the end of meciosis because of everything that he hears,
that the doctor says, what she takes from it, Yeah,
And then when by the end of the episode, when
Bobby comes along and the conflict between them happens.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's just it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
It's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
And I also, you know, I wonder if it would
have been an opportunity for Francis to be a little
bit vulnerable with Bobby, if Bobby hadn't found out about
her short story at this exact moment, you know, would
she have come home and would Francs have been like,
I just got this crazy news and I'm feeling kind
of freaked out about it. Because she sometimes shares with Bobby,
(22:06):
you know, not always, but sometimes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
There are tender moments in which she opens up to Bobby.
Bobby can definitely open her up more than anyone else.
But she has a bad track record with sharing news
and a timely matter. She just doesn't fucking share anything.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
She just doesn't share, that's true.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Especially when she's feeling attacked, she just freezes.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And she definitely gets attacked in this fight.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Oh yeah, And you know what, I think she kind
of deserves it.
Speaker 10 (22:35):
She does men with contempt and whatever she wants she
can have.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
It's fiction, So why couldn't you show it to me?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Then?
Speaker 5 (22:45):
What is wrong with you?
Speaker 7 (22:48):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I don't think you think anyone else is real.
Speaker 10 (22:52):
Francis standing in front of all those people at that party,
all fucking wounded, kissing me and then writing this shit
instead of communicating anything.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Even now, you can't.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Your self.
Speaker 10 (23:11):
Obsession is exhausting and it's hurtful and it's fucking boring.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Bobby is so brutal with Francis in this scene, but
she's not wrong.
Speaker 7 (23:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
It comes from a very raw place and it hits
hard because it's just fucking true, and Francis knows it.
She apologizes multiple times.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
But not not really.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I mean, she says like sorry, but says I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, trying to make the situation stop.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I don't know what I will do that in that situation.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, yeah, I know, I definitely wouldn't think of anything
intelligent to say. But there's that thing about when you're
in a relationship, in a breakup or in a fight,
and after they leave, after the confrontation, you have all
these things that you want to say to them.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I think I know what I talk about. I get
very defensive, and then after I get defensive and send
an email or say a lot of things. I have
all night long, or maybe for weeks or for years centuries,
have all of the things that I should have said
and how I should have said them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I think at this time I was like twenty four
twenty five, this is Rachel Bell. But like a small
press put out a scene that I did called Loss,
and it was I had another breakup and it was
a serious relationship. And after we broke up, it was like, Okay,
we're not going to talk. And I had so much
that I wanted to say to him, and so I
(24:48):
made a private Twitter account called Things I Want to Text.
It's called him Joe, and no one could follow it.
But anytime I wanted to text him, instead of sending
the text, I typed it into a tweet and just
like sent it to no one. It was nice to
have a repository like it was. It was basically just
a coping skill, and so the book is entirely those
(25:10):
in chronological order, so you can kind of just like
watch me go through the stages of grief and then
eventually feel okay. And then I didn't start it with
the idea of you know, productizing it or publishing it ever,
but I was like, damn, this is so real. And
I was talking to somebody recently about like what being
(25:31):
a successful artist means, and to me, it's like, obviously
it's great to receive renown or acclaim, but if somebody
who's like lived a totally different life then me can
read some work I made and like feel something or
empathize with it, that's success to me. And that was
one of the ones that, like, it wasn't very widespread,
(25:52):
but when people reach out to me about it, it
was like, hey, this like really helped me go through
a breakup, and that is just like one of the
best feelings I can think. So.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Rachel's work is available on her website Rachel bell dot
Info will also link it in the show notes.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
I Know.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Sat a show, Emmy All. This show is hosted and
produced by me, Maggie Bowles, and me NOAHM.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Gadweiser.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It's written and edited by me, with assistant editing by Noam.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the entire straw Hut team.
Theme music is by Maggie Glass and Square Fish and
Big Thanks to Ariabashi, Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas and the
Hulu team.
Speaker 7 (26:56):
No mag Smile, Show a Little Child. M h.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
M hmmm.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Best Trio SIS Misconceptions, Trio SIS Misconceptions, Conceptions and three
John and No trous Misconceptions and U s psky
Straw hot Media.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
You pay the wine price like here is a bottle troubles.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers.
Speaker 4 (00:12):
I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 4 (00:19):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Today. We want to know why are we so self
destructive and how do we grow past it?
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Doctor c Sue Carter gives us a scientific explanation for
our urge to fail at natural selection.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Seems counterintuitive, right then? Writer Christine Wiedenbach somehow makes the
image of a burning bridge inspirational.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Obeg An Peter Weiss dispels some myths about animitiosis.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Those pesky and dometriosis misconceptions.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
And we learned that Twitter is a pretty powerful tool
for getting over a breakup. Who knew first? Let's recap.
Frances asks Nick about his depression. He tells her he
was hospitalized for six weeks. They talk about children. He
meets her mom.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Francis is diagnosed with endometriosis and she hides it from everybody.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Nick tells Frances he and Melissa started sleeping together again.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Francis ends up going to Nick's birthday party. She does
not handle herself well. She storms out, crying. Actually, Melissa
should bobby.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Frances's short story. There's a confrontation and Francis freezes.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
So why couldn't you show it to me?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Then?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And then Frances and Nick meet up at a park
and they break up.
Speaker 6 (01:36):
I don't figure, and oh why do we do stupid things?
Speaker 7 (01:46):
Why?
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Why? Why not just be happy all the time?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
This is neurobiologist doctor c Sue Carter. Because self destructive
tendencies seem so antithetical to survival and evolution, we figured
there must be biological explanation.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Most of us have sufficient food, we have shelter. So
what pushes us back into these primitive states? Whether they
be then self destructive behaviors a kind of behavior that
is associated with so called borderline symptoms where person will
(02:23):
cut themselves or use drugs or alcohol in a self
destructive way, or even suicide, which makes not much biological sense,
but which from an emotional point of view, may seem
at the moment like the only solution my thinking is,
(02:46):
and unfortunately we can't fix this with hormones, but my
thinking is that the old system pushes its way through
under conditions of acute stress.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Benefit of love when it's working well is a sense
of safety, not only consciously but also in our bodies.
And the minute the relationship starts to shift out of safety,
maybe one partner isn't happy and wants to leave.
Speaker 6 (03:10):
These things somehow create a kind of vacuum in our
nervous system, and it's very common for people to try
to fill that chemically with drugs, with substances, with excitement,
anything they can do to get out of that sense
(03:33):
of loneliness, which has now been very well established to
be one of the worst things that can happen to people.
Feeling alone is a kind of ultimate sense of threat
and danger.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And that puts our bodies into a different physiological state,
one where we feel vulnerable.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
A physiological state in which we don't know, oh, sometimes
just don't know what to do. Our cognitive functions seem
to get a little out of whack, and that's a
huge problem.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It's especially a problem for people who experience lack of
safety in early life.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
That safety seems to lay down the foundation, and that
foundation is based, in my thinking, on the receptors for
oxytocinin based presson and you start to see that system calibrated.
So then when something happens later, those individuals with what
(04:36):
we might call abandonment or trauma histories are very disruptive.
They have a hard time being by themselves. Sometimes you'll
see what's called borderline personality up here. I don't think
that's a disease. I think that's a state. But for
(04:57):
some people, if you're in that, if you're in that
state all the time, it's very hard to get anything
done because your body's kind in a constant state of uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Can you tell us a little bit about your experience
with self destructive behavior?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Oh my goodness, Well, you know, get into the right place.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
This is writer Christine Wheedenbach. She actually got her mfan
creative writing at the same place as my mom did.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Part of me thinks it's boredom or like I know
I have like I've been diagnosed with BPD. As a
creative person, you know, you, kind of destruction is kind
of a form of creation. So you know, it makes
me feel it one with one with my element too,
you know, So how do you see it come up
in relationships? So people will get ever so close to
(05:49):
me and that at some point, like I maybe rely
on them too much or maybe there's like some sort
of like individualistic thing going on there. But I could
only get so close to people before I just like,
let's let's burn this bridge. How could we burn this bridge?
(06:10):
Obviously I assume some kind of like protection method, but uh,
but obviously you know your sacrifice a bit in that protection,
there's a reason that you end up doing that, and
it's like you have to kind of deal with the
reason before you can deal with your arson.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
It's good advice and it's a very visual phrase too.
I'm imagining a poster, you know, one of those inspirational
ones that hang up in a guidance counselor's office. There's
a picture of a bridge engulfed in flames, and then
maybe like block letters or even nice cursive that says,
you have to deal with your reason before you can
deal with your arson, and.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
How do you burn those bridges? Particularly if I may.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Ask basically becoming obsessive or jealous or that because that
could look like a number of different things with a
number different people, right, kind of like letting the relationships
sour as a means of preserving yourself. But like, I
know I've done like that. You know, way too many texts,
(07:16):
just like total irrational fighting for no reason. I liked
that a lot when I was young.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So where are you at now, like in terms of
like your own like reflections on you know, the way
that things have gone in the past, and then how
you want to move things forward in the future.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I'm the happiest I've ever been. I was able to,
I was fortunate enough to lay down some roots. I'm
doing a career that works for me. I'm like achieving
my goals, and I kind of like a bit of
a solitary life. I like, I like people in my life,
(08:03):
but I like them only so much because I'm you know,
I just like being alone and I like that time
is kind of sacred to me. I like my life
right now. Yeah, That's where I'm at right now. That's
amazing to hear. I don't think that, Like, I don't
think that I would have recognized myself if I was Like,
(08:24):
what if I went back and like my twenty year
old self saw me today. I don't think she'd recognize me,
but I think that in the end, I'm glad I
was her, you know, like it all worked out in
the end, but dang, I bumped along the wood.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Yeah. And also like things continue to work out right,
like you know, things you know at thirty, Like I'm
thirty two, for example, and I know that, like things
are going to continue to change weirdly enough, like you know,
(09:05):
I'm I feel much better about where I am now
in my life as a thirty two year old than
I did as a twenty five year old. I was
a lot more like fucking totally falling apart, not that
I'm not falling apart every day now, but.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Much less, uh dire way. And I also stylized now
very you know what you're doing about Actually I think
it was more stylized back then. I think it was
a lot harder. Everything was like hotter. Back I don't know,
just remember everything was hotter. I don't thinking about it. It
was like I was really doing something exactly. But at
(09:43):
least now it's a little bit you know, this water
is a little shallower, maybe, you know.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
And like moving forward, I'm like, Okay, so I haven't
necessarily figured.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It out, but I know that like things are going
to change.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
Life is so adaptive it just keeps recreating other ways
to make things work. But I think what most of
us are interested in is some kind of optimal life,
some kind of world in which we are not anxious
all the time, in which we feel some degree of safety,
(10:34):
ideally inside of ourselves. Okay, so that we can then
interact in a healthy way with other humans. And that's
a tall order. That's a hard thing to do, because
we are so well designed to be on the alert
(10:54):
for danger.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Our minds and our bodies are very strange. Let's take
a quick break, and when we come back, a crash
course in endometriosis with doctor Peter Weiss and a very
creative and not destructive way to cope with heartbreak.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Welcome back today. We're talking about self destructive behavior and
how to grow past it. And in this episode of
Conversations with Friends, Francis gets a diagnosis that kind of
turns our world upside down.
Speaker 8 (11:27):
I tell patients that endimitriosis is like real estate. It's
all about location, location, location, So some people it's debilitating,
others there's no problem at all.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
This is doctor Peter Weiss.
Speaker 8 (11:39):
I'm Board certified obgyn. I graduated the University of Michigan,
a School of Medicine, the co founder of the Rodeo
Drive Women's Health Center.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Also, he may or may not be my uncle.
Speaker 8 (11:51):
Dmitriosis is a fairly common disorder. It's found in about
ten percent of reproductive age women. It's ninety nine point
plus percent non malignant, and it can cause what we
call this minerhea or very painful periods, heavy periods, pain
with sex, you have chronic pain. Really what it is,
(12:14):
it's a little bit harder to explain, but the lining
of the uterus is called the endometrium. It's only a
few cell layers thick, and that's where those cells are
supposed to live. But when those cells sort of move
out and go to different parts of the body, that's
what we call endometriosis. And really what endometriosis is, it's
(12:36):
an inflammatory response, So it causes inflammation in those areas
and those cells live, they take the blood supply of
nutrition for whatever part of the organs they sort of
invade into it.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And I've heard that enometriosis is really hard to diagnose.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Why is that so?
Speaker 8 (12:53):
First of all, you're talking about microscopic cells, so it's
hard to diagnose things with microscopic cells. There's no blood test.
In the old days, we used to diagnose endometriosis doing
what's called a laparoscopy.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
We stick a.
Speaker 8 (13:05):
Tube into a woman's belly and we look. But it's
progressed so far that we no longer do that. That
we can diagnosis by symptoms, and it's somewhat of a
diagnosis by exclusion, even though we do include certain things.
And then we would treat it because the treatments are
relatively mild unless you get towards surgery, so we don't
(13:25):
need to do surgery just to diagnose what we think
is there.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
And how do you treat it.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
It's a wide range and it's very simple, and sometimes
it's just taking nonsteroidals such as i'd beprofen. Another simple
way of doing it is birth control pills. Estrogen and
progesterone pills also work with simple things like acupuncture because
that's pain control. You could do progesterone only pills no estrogen.
There are injections, something called GnRH agen is something like lupron,
(13:53):
which sort of puts you in a pseudo menopauset there
are other people which will have more patience than me,
and diet can control if you eat foods high in
Omega three fatty acids, they tend to be anti inflammatory,
reducing red meat, increasing fruits and vegetables. And then here
comes the hardest part, is limiting caffeine and alcohol. So
(14:13):
those do help some benefits, but doesn't work with everyone.
So that's the wide range. And then the last one
is surgery. That's the one that we usually send to
a special surgeon that meticulously go through the laptisk of
those tubes and they peel off the endometriosis wherever you can.
Now remember that's not curing it. That's just reducing the
(14:33):
amount of endometrosis and hopefully reducing the pain.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
So it sounds like all of the treatment is really
just pain management. Is that accurate exactly?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
That's the sad part.
Speaker 8 (14:46):
But most endometriosis will resolve when you go into menopause.
It doesn't always go away, but it's much much better.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Does endometriosis resolve on its own without menopause or is
it more of a life long experience?
Speaker 8 (15:01):
I tend to tell people it's a chronic illness. There'll
be ups and downs like anything. Anywhere from thirty to
fifty percent of women with endemitiosis can have fertility issues.
But it's I'm not trying to imply that if you
have indemetriosis you will have a problem. Again, it's about
the location. So some endimitriosis could be mild and you
have real significant problem getting pregnant. You could have significant
(15:24):
endemytoss and have no problem. And if you think about
endimitosis being estrogen dependent, you have more estrogen over those
greater number of years because if you have multiple berths,
you have less chance of enemy shoss. But remember you're
not having your cycle, You're not having that estrogen push
for those times while you're pregnant in nursing, so things
(15:45):
like that.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
So pregnancy can ease andrometriosis basically in some places.
Speaker 8 (15:52):
Because it's similar to if I put you on a
pill to turn off your periods completely, that's what a
pregnancy would do. You're not getting your periods. I'm not
telling you guys, get pregnant now.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
My uncle definitely told us to get pregnant. You are
a thirty I am, but what I really want to
talk about is what the doctor tells Francis.
Speaker 9 (16:13):
Have you heard of endometriosis, Francis. It's a condition where
cells from inside the uteris grow elsewhere in the body.
These cells are benign as in their non cancerous, but
endometriosis is complicated. It's difficult to diagnose, and there's no
cure as such.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
It's not uncommon. One in ten women suffer from it.
Speaker 9 (16:33):
There are surgical interventions, but they're only really necessary in
particularly severe cases. So our focus right now is pain
management and preventing it from becoming debilitating. There's one other thing, right, Unfortunately,
this can lead to fertility issues for some.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
Women, right, but there's much more we can do about that.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Now.
Speaker 9 (17:00):
This really doesn't mean what it used to. Can I
ask if you're trying to conceive or planning to in
the near future.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
No, I mean that's not something I'm currently Yeah, So
you and I reacted to this differently, quite differently.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
I think that this doctor was not very fair to Francis.
To be fair, in the book, it's even worse when
you're in a doctor's office and you're alone and then
you hear words like uncurable and pain management and high
risk pregnancies or whatever. I would be spiraling too.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, I think that's interesting that you took from that
interaction with the doctor the exact same thing that Francis did,
Whereas when I watched it, I guess maybe because I'm
more familiar with endometriosis. I was like, it's okay, it's
not the end of the world. You don't know anything yet.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
What I saw is I my Jewish mother's side kind
of came to fight and was like, no, Frances, it's okay.
She's not telling you everything. I feel like there's so
many things that she could have told her that she
didn't that I want to tell Francis that. I think
we should let doctor Weiss tell Francis.
Speaker 8 (18:25):
So a true physician is where you show compassion and
caring and not try to scare the shit out of somebody. So, yes,
you are at a higher risk of having fertility issues,
but it absolutely does not mean you cannot get pregnant
or will not get pregnant. Every patient comes to me,
out of ten patients, one person will have an easier
(18:46):
chance of getting pregnant than another, and some will have
a harder chance. I don't know who those are and
just because you have endimitus's doesn't mean you will have
a problem.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Do you have any tips for people talking to doctors
about the subjects.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
What I always tell patients and I teach the residence
the patient has to have all her concerns answer. Whenever
I leave a room after I see a patient, I
always ask have I answered all your questions? The sad
thing is most people will say yes, yes, even if
I haven't. So I'll tell patient. Look, if I gave
(19:23):
you a lot of information. Let's say you're the first
time Maggie, you came in. I told you, sadly you
have endemetriosis and you have a lot of questions and concerns.
I would tell you to do some research. So you
go to a respected healthcare site that will give you
honest information, not false information about endometriosis, and you can
know the very basic ones like from the Mayo Clinic,
(19:43):
Cleveland Clinic, Hopkins. You pick your academic institution of choice
that will help you sort of guide you along the way.
Be careful of a lot of the sites out there,
because I'm sure you can find it. A site which
will claim that endometriosis will cause you to grow a
third leg.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Do you still want children?
Speaker 7 (20:05):
Yeah, but that's off the table.
Speaker 6 (20:17):
You don't know, you're still young.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
What.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
I think you'd be a great dad.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
You have a kind nature.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
And you're very loving.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
The endometriosis news hits Francis especially hard, I think because
she's attached a lot of her self worth in her
relationship with Nick to her ability and her willingness to
have kids. And so this is her one kind of
bargaining chip of like, but I will have your babies.
It's what she has to make her argument for her
(20:59):
role in Nick.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
I see what you're saying. I just don't think that
she's plans ahead that much. I think it's a genuine
love thing with Francis.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I don't mean it to say that she's calculating. I
just mean it to say that that she's attached some
self worth in it. I think it has to do
with her own lack of self confidence and self esteem. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So, Yeah, it hits her very hard than the news
about the end of meciosis because of everything that he hears,
that the doctor says, what she takes from it, Yeah,
And then when by the end of the episode, when
Bobby comes along and the conflict between them happens.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
It's just it's a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
It's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
It's a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
And I also, you know, I wonder if it would
have been an opportunity for Francis to be a little
bit vulnerable with Bobby, if Bobby hadn't found out about
her short story at this exact moment, you know, would
she have come home and would Francs have been like,
I just got this crazy news and I'm feeling kind
of freaked out about it. Because she sometimes shares with Bobby,
(22:06):
you know, not always, but sometimes, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
There are tender moments in which she opens up to Bobby.
Bobby can definitely open her up more than anyone else.
But she has a bad track record with sharing news
and a timely matter. She just doesn't fucking share anything.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
She just doesn't share, that's true.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Especially when she's feeling attacked, she just freezes.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
And she definitely gets attacked in this fight.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Oh yeah, And you know what, I think she kind
of deserves it.
Speaker 10 (22:35):
She does men with contempt and whatever she wants she
can have.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
It's fiction, So why couldn't you show it to me?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Then?
Speaker 5 (22:45):
What is wrong with you?
Speaker 7 (22:48):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
I don't think you think anyone else is real.
Speaker 10 (22:52):
Francis standing in front of all those people at that party,
all fucking wounded, kissing me and then writing this shit
instead of communicating anything.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
Even now, you can't.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
Your self.
Speaker 10 (23:11):
Obsession is exhausting and it's hurtful and it's fucking boring.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Bobby is so brutal with Francis in this scene, but
she's not wrong.
Speaker 7 (23:27):
You know.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
It comes from a very raw place and it hits
hard because it's just fucking true, and Francis knows it.
She apologizes multiple times.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
But not not really.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
I mean, she says like sorry, but says I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, trying to make the situation stop.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I don't know what I will do that in that situation.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, yeah, I know, I definitely wouldn't think of anything
intelligent to say. But there's that thing about when you're
in a relationship, in a breakup or in a fight,
and after they leave, after the confrontation, you have all
these things that you want to say to them.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
I think I know what I talk about. I get
very defensive, and then after I get defensive and send
an email or say a lot of things. I have
all night long, or maybe for weeks or for years centuries,
have all of the things that I should have said
and how I should have said them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
I think at this time I was like twenty four
twenty five, this is Rachel Bell. But like a small
press put out a scene that I did called Loss,
and it was I had another breakup and it was
a serious relationship. And after we broke up, it was like, Okay,
we're not going to talk. And I had so much
that I wanted to say to him, and so I
(24:48):
made a private Twitter account called Things I Want to Text.
It's called him Joe, and no one could follow it.
But anytime I wanted to text him, instead of sending
the text, I typed it into a tweet and just
like sent it to no one. It was nice to
have a repository like it was. It was basically just
a coping skill, and so the book is entirely those
(25:10):
in chronological order, so you can kind of just like
watch me go through the stages of grief and then
eventually feel okay. And then I didn't start it with
the idea of you know, productizing it or publishing it ever,
but I was like, damn, this is so real. And
I was talking to somebody recently about like what being
(25:31):
a successful artist means, and to me, it's like, obviously
it's great to receive renown or acclaim, but if somebody
who's like lived a totally different life then me can
read some work I made and like feel something or
empathize with it, that's success to me. And that was
one of the ones that, like, it wasn't very widespread,
(25:52):
but when people reach out to me about it, it
was like, hey, this like really helped me go through
a breakup, and that is just like one of the
best feelings I can think. So.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
Rachel's work is available on her website Rachel bell dot
Info will also link it in the show notes.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
I Know.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Sat a show, Emmy All. This show is hosted and
produced by me, Maggie Bowles, and me NOAHM.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Gadweiser.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It's written and edited by me, with assistant editing by Noam.
Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson, with help from Tyler Nielsen,
Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and the entire straw Hut team.
Theme music is by Maggie Glass and Square Fish and
Big Thanks to Ariabashi, Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas and the
Hulu team.
Speaker 7 (26:56):
No mag Smile, Show a Little Child. M h.
Speaker 10 (27:20):
M hmmm.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Best Trio SIS Misconceptions, Trio SIS Misconceptions, Conceptions and three
John and No trous Misconceptions and U s psky
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!