May 16, 2022 • 37 mins
We can’t believe it’s over. We’re gonna miss our friends and our strangers. We talk with producer Jeanie Igoe about the differences between Melissa on the page and Melissa on the screen. We learn some conflict resolution techniques from certified nonviolent communication facilitator Ranjitha Jeurkar. Maggie tells us about a time she waited 7 years to apologize. We talk about our feelings about the series overall (obviously). And we ask producer Jeanie Igoe if there could ever be a season two of Conversations With Friends.
Ranjitha Jeurkar
https://www.instagram.com/connextcoaching
Michael Amico
https://instagram.com/michaelamicophoto
Michael Amico's The Evening Nudes
https://www.instagram.com/the_evening_nudes
Martha Kauppi
https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
Ranjitha Jeurkar
https://www.instagram.com/connextcoaching
Michael Amico
https://instagram.com/michaelamicophoto
Michael Amico's The Evening Nudes
https://www.instagram.com/the_evening_nudes
Martha Kauppi
https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media. So you kind of don't want it
to end, or maybe you do want it to end,
but you don't want to be alone after it ends.
Is this normal what I'm feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Yeah, We're like, oh, yes, you've felt up too, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You so personally we talked yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome
to Conversations with Friends and Strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends. We'll
meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
(00:44):
It's our final episode. I know I feel conflicted, I
feel sad. I'm gonna miss my friends, I'm gonna miss
my strangers. But today we get a lot of great stuff,
and you want to know, can you really call someone
out for hurt full behavior and communicate through a conflict.
We talked to Genie Igo about the differences between Melissa
on the page and Melissa on the screen. We learned
(01:05):
some conflict resolution techniques and Maggie tells us about the
time she waited seven years to apologize. We talk about
the series overall and our feelings and our feelings about
the series overall, and we ask some questions about a
possible season two. But first our last reekap Frances is
looking very alone. Yeah, she's kind of in a depression
(01:29):
hibernation mode, and a copy of her story arrives in
the mail, so she calls Melissa and asks why she
showed Bobby the story. Ulsa drops some major wisdom, honor,
the way you have.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Behaved has had real consequences.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Francis writes an apology email to Bobby. It's a very
good email. They reconcile, they have sex, and they start
their lives together as lovers. Time passes, she seems to
be having her life together, and then around Christmas time,
she gets an accidental phone call from Nick that ends
with Frances saying come get me. In the novel, Melissa
comes off pretty badly, and it's not hard to join
(02:02):
in with Francis and villainizing her.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
You know, she was that much a little bit harder
and not meaner, but maybe just slightly.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
This is producer Genie I go. I'm starting to kind
of think of her as our conversations with friends Shaman.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
That coldness of Melissa, I don't think really works in
the adaptation as much for on screen, because you're not
so in Frances's head and experiencing what she's experiencing. And
you see it through France's reaction that that is what
she feels and how she sees Melissa. But you know,
Melissa is a very complex person and has her own life,
(02:39):
and this is her husband, and you know it has
so many layers to it.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Your actions have impact, your writing has impact. The way
you have behaved has had real consequences. You made my
depressed husband happy for a while, and then you gave
up when things got complicated and you weren't the center
of the fucking everything. And now he's struggling again, and
(03:12):
you call me as though you're the fucking victim. Please
please leave us alone.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
I'm sorry, Melissa.
Speaker 6 (03:28):
I'm sorry for this aggressive phone call.
Speaker 7 (03:31):
It was stupid.
Speaker 6 (03:32):
I am I don't really know what I'm doing at
the moment. I'm having a hard time.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Maybe I'm sorry you're having a hard time.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Are you okay for answers?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
First of all, I think Jemima just like brings more
of a like, she brings a relatability maybe to it
that uh makes Melissa's character so much more sympathetic, you
know then in the book and also just like you know,
some of the ways that these conversations went, like for
(04:22):
the one that really stood out to me was the
one where Francis calls Melissa on the phone to ask
her why she showed Bobby her story and in the book.
I reread the conversation in the book recently because I
was like, you know, this is such a powerful moment
in the series where Melissa is able to like, you know,
Jemima as Melissa is able to give her some like
(04:44):
wisdom and you know, be a little bit harsh, well yeah,
pretty harsh, but also almost constructive, and it feels like
a catalyst. It feels like something that really changes Francis's
like perspective, whereas in the book Melissa, what Melissa says
to her doesn't necessarily seem to have that big of
(05:07):
an effect, and you know, you could make the argument
that it's all how Francis sees it, you know, versus
how it actually took place, But it really changed the
way that I felt about Melissa based on seeing it
on screen. Yeah, that's definitely what it felt to me.
It's hard because I'm a purist, but in the end,
it's like, yeah, that's a much better way to do it.
(05:27):
We get it, and it kind of shows us where
we stand and it kind of puts Francis, it humbles
her and straightens her at the same time, and she
understands kind of her perspective forair relyship with Bobby totally.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I mean, like, think of your headspace, those like a
tunny one year twenty two year old Like it's so
you're so self involved, you know, you're so everything is
about you, Like everything is happening to you, and that moment,
it's not cool. Melissa just takes her out of it
and just gives her just like a quick reality slap
(06:04):
of like, hey, he's my husband. You have come into
my life and you have changed things and it is
not all about you, like like kind of, I don't know.
It's such a powerful conversation and it is. I think
you're right. It's such a catalyst.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
To how.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Francis kind of brings herself out of it and realizes
how selfish she's being, and like it kind of happens
so suddenly, because that is how I think as a
twenty in your early twenties, you don't really realize that
the effect you have on people as well. And it's
something I still think I'm still learning now, like with
(06:45):
friendships and relationships, and I look back and I think
I've had this experience with someone and they think it's
been totally different, and like we're it's crazy what you
do to your what you tell yourself, Like how you
tell yourself you're good friend, so you tell yourself you're
doing the right thing, but actually we all make mistakes
and all are very selfish people.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Also I think it shows it shows how mature Francis
is becoming and how big she is as a person
to kind of own own it. She does wake up,
which makes us love her more because she's a difficult
character in the book too. Every time I read this book,
I'm like, you're me and I hate you.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yeah, but like it's so true, but you like you
get so frustrated at her, but you like she's doing
the best she can as well, and like it is
a really hard time as well. It's like, you know,
you're not in college, you are grown up. Now you
were in the world, and I think Francis is realizing that,
and she, you know, with the help of Melissa and
(07:52):
with the help of like Bobby holding her accountable too.
I think that's a really important part of it as well.
But I think in order for her to go back
to Bobby as a better version, she needed that kind
of outside perspective and kind of someone who wasn't going
to sugarcoat it for her, and someone wasn't speaking out.
Even though Melissa is going through pain, you don't feel
(08:13):
like she's speaking to Francis from only a place of pain.
It's kind of a place of wisdom as well.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
Are you okay, Francis, I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Can sound fine.
Speaker 6 (08:30):
I just haven't been the person that I should have been,
so I don't know what I'm saying now.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
I wish I had been more thoughtful.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I guess I want to apologize for that.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm going to hang up brutal but very true things.
And while it's important that she held Francis accountable, there
really wasn't any attempt at resolution. Melissa, on the other hand,
so harsh managed to stay empathetic and all that's had
us thinking about the best ways to try and resolve conflict,
because for most of us, our initial instinct is like Bobby's,
(09:13):
it's aggression.
Speaker 8 (09:14):
And it sort of will end up driving us apart.
And if we know how to hold this conversation, if
we have certain things in mind.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
This is Ranjeita Jakar. She practices and teaches nonviolent communication
skills and she talked to us all the way from Bangalore.
Speaker 8 (09:30):
So when we're talking about interactions that can potentially be
uncomfortable or that are uncomfortable and we approaching, there's a
couple of things for me that make the difference between
such a conversation leading to more connection or leading to disconnection.
I think the tendency often is to either express ourselves
unfiltered and to say here's my honesty ticket, and then
(09:54):
that becomes sort of an equivalent of dumping.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And the other, which is very common, is waiting until
things get super intense before even trying to have a conversation.
Speaker 8 (10:03):
And then with intensity, with so much I don't actually
have a lot of space to listen to either me
or you.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
If you want to have a conversation about conflict and
your goal is resolution, here are some things you can
do before entering that space.
Speaker 8 (10:15):
The first is I want to get super clear for
myself about why does this matter to me? And this
is really central to the practice of non violent communication itself,
which is that everything we do, we're doing to need
to need. Any emotion that's stimulated in us is telling
us about some need or the other that we have.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If you're not clear about what you're feeling and why,
it'll be that much harder to try and explain it
to the other person and that much less likely you'll understand.
Speaker 8 (10:44):
So prep for sure helps with hard conversations, just a
little bit of reflection before about what happened, Why does
this matter to me? Why you know I'm feeling sad?
What is the sadness telling me about? The other part
for me is instead of saying something like you're such
a loves you friend, can I actually express my internal
experience because saying you're a lousy friend is more like
(11:08):
a judgment on the other person, and my internal experience
is more like, Hey, you said you'd show up to
help me with the work that I had on my
plate last week and I didn't see you. What happened?
I'm disappointed and I was really hoping to have your support.
With that, it becomes easier for people to hear us
will we're not blaming them, because when we blame people,
(11:28):
their defenses go up. They have a choice to either
defend themselves or to attack us back. But when I'm
actually talking about me and how your actions have impacted me,
it's a lot easier for you to hear and guessing
because it's not so much about a judgment of you,
but it's more like, this is how I'm experiencing this situation.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
When it comes to resolving conflict that feels like a pattern,
say your friend consistently hides important information from you. Francheta says,
the key is to be specific first.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
I'd suggest taking one at a time, or maybe alluding
to it, alluding to, hey, I remember this happening a
couple maybe two times in the past, or something like that,
because the more specific I can be, the less it's
likely the other person is going to hear it as
this is exactly the person you are and I know it.
And I think it's also about clarifying it enough for
(12:21):
me to get clear about my own experience enough that
I can say, at this moment, what I want to
talk about is this and this, and to really identify
what are those two or three things that I want
to talk about in this moment rather than talking about
the entirety of our experience, because that's huge, and how
(12:43):
you know, the more specific, the more granular I can be,
it's the easier it is to actually initiate a conversation
and start connecting with the other person.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Non violent communication has a four step framework. It's very
cool and very helpful. We'll link more info about Rejeta
and non violent communication practice in the show notes. And
who knows, maybe you'll win your next fight. Thank you
may have missed the point. Perhaps we're going to take
a quick break and when you come back. Maggie seven
year late Apology, Magic Mushrooms and doctor marthac Elbe shares
(13:14):
their secret ingredient in lasting relationships. Welcome back today for
our final episode, we're looking at conflict and resolution. Is
it possible to call someone out for the way they've
(13:34):
hurt you in a constructive way? What if you're the
asshole and no one calls you out on it? Remember
that story I told you in episode one about playing
in a band with my ex. The part of that
story that I left out is about the guy who
played drums at us during the time Anthony was gone.
He was not as good as Anthony. Anthony is a
musical genius.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Was not a musical genius.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
But enthusiastic in his yah, in his blase way. It
was two thousand and nine and I was nineteen going
on twenty. I was living in Long Beach and going
to school but still managing to drive down to LA
to party at least once a week. And I struck
up a friendship with Max. He was like, oh, I
play drums. I could play drums, and I was. I
think I was talking to him at a bar or something,
and I was like great. And he lived in LA.
(14:19):
He was older, he was in his thirties. He seemed
very cool to me at the time, and he started
playing drums with us instead. How long was it before
he slept with him. I can't remember exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But not long. It is twice a pattern.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I have a really hard time separating my creative feelings
from my romantic feelings, so I think I do have
a connection to music. And that's also where I'm in
love with Michael, and he's he'll never love me back
the way that I want.
Speaker 7 (14:46):
That's because I have a very strict rule about creative
partner romances.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, it's the only the only reason.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
No strict rules about vaginas at all.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Very pro Famously,
I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Say Max and I were ever in a relationship, but
we were fond of one another, and there were a
few instances where we crossed that line into more than.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Friends and romance of convenience.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Maybe very convenient to have a twenty one year old around,
you know.
Speaker 7 (15:12):
Yeah, well, and I think there's also the factor of, like,
we're spending a lot of time together, and we're drinking
a lot together, playing at these shows, and like that.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It just kind of happened.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
Had there been some Scaye dude in the band, I
probably would have been boning him too, So you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Would have been just definitely wasn't. So that is the
true tragedy of the story. After about seven or eight
months of playing shows with Max, Anthony said he was
thinking about rejoining the band. And this was big because
we'd really been feeling Anthony's absence in the music.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
So it wasn't just he wasn't as good as Anthony.
It's that he wasn't that good generally.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
No, And also we should also say that we weren't
that good either.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
No, Anthony was doing a lot of the heavy lifting
when it came to music and the way that we played,
And I don't think we realized how much work he
did as a drummer until we got a different drummer
who was more you know, I wasn't a fantastic guitar
player at that time. You were probably a lot better
at bass than I was at guitar, and probably at
guitar actually at that point, and we.
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Don't want to remember about really like the biggest contribution
from our time playing with Max.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Is that the sound really evolved.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
That was the first time we were playing with a
full drum kit and not using a cahone anymore, and
things gone a lot louder and a lot fuller, and
we really like went from being like a coffee shop
folk kind of thing to like a rock band.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
The way I remember it, we got an opportunity for
a show that felt like a big deal.
Speaker 7 (16:41):
I don't remember what the show was, but I can
certainly imagine us at the time saying like, this is
going to be a big show. So this is our
reason to booke Anthony instead of Max and using that
as some kind of excuse to be like, well, it's important,
so we have to make this choice.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Changing drummers doesn't have to be band switch lineups all
the time. It was the way we did it that
still just mortifies me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It was like we ghosted our own drummer.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Rather than talking to Max about it, we just booked
the show with Anthony. It was so shitty. And I
remember it was like the day before or the day
of the show, he texted me and he said do
we have a show tonight or do we have a show?
Speaker 7 (17:26):
Oh god, I remember that moment where he texted you
and he's like he's asking right now if we have
a show.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's like, oh god, what did we tell him?
Speaker 7 (17:35):
And I also very specifically remember telling people about it
afterwards and they asked like who's like, what happened to
your ol drummer? And we would tell them the story
and we would always say, like he texted us asking
if we have a show, and we said, well, we
have a show, you don't have a show. It hurts
something horrible like that. I don't even remember if those
(17:58):
are the words that we use to him. I kind
of don't think that we would have been that cruel,
but I just remember that is the language that the
retelling took on when people asked us about what happened
to our old drummer.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Is that's how we told the story.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
So we were aware that we had done something shitty.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And that was the end of Max. No one reached
out to him to explain or to apologize, and no
one called us out for being so shitty.
Speaker 7 (18:23):
It was just like one day we were a band
and then all of a sudden, we weren't. And we
never spoke again until I mean, like I think literally
years later, because we couldn't overcome our own shame.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, we really like he would have understood. You know,
we could have said, we're going to go back to
this other drummer that we've played with and we still
want to be friends, and we really enjoyed this time together.
But we were children and we were afraid of that confrontation,
and so instead we just were shitthits about it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
When I moved to La Proper in twenty sixteen, I
passed him in the parking lot at Trader Joe's. I
waved to him, and the look he gave me was
just pure ice, and I suddenly noticed the void where
my apology should have been. So I wrote them a
message on Facebook seven years late. Hey, Max, this may
seem to come out of nowhere, but I am writing
to apologize for the shitty way I left things with
(19:17):
you and Squarefish all those years ago. Honestly, I did
a lot of shitty things when I was younger. Sometimes
I blame it on my underdeveloped frontal lobe, sometimes my
self centeredness, sometimes my starr eyed naivete translated into narcissism.
Either way, you are my friend and my collaborator, and
I just cut you out with no explanation or consideration.
(19:39):
And regardless of how mediocre my band was, that wasn't okay.
I'm sure the whole thing is Slash was just a
blip on your radar and that has completely left your mind.
But for my own peace of mind, I want you
to know that I am truly sorry. I hope your
life is happy and productive and full of beauty.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Old friend.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
PS, No, I'm not a twelve step program. Geez, can't
a girl just apologize? He read the message, but he
never responded until just a few weeks ago. It's why
the story is on my mind. All he said was
that he was thinking about me and that he hoped
I was, well, I'm glad you apologize after seven years,
and I'm glad he accepted your apology five years after that.
(20:17):
I mean that's almost twelve years. Your conflict is almost
odd enough to have its own from its Well, can
we hear a story where people solve their conflict in
a healthier and maybe faster way? Okay, how about faster
and super fresh like just happened. Remember my friend Dicemell
from episode six I mentioned he lives in a house
with a bunch of people. It's three couples, family going on.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
There's like two long standing friends business partners, like in
a band with like one of the other people. We
each have our partners and.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
This was very like interrelated.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Recently things had gotten tense.
Speaker 9 (21:02):
It all started to inspiral down into like, oh what
is this like unit is potentially like fracturing between all
of these different couples because this shit is complicated, like
living with a lot of people's fucking heart, especially when
you're in a romantic relationship, it really is difficult to
navigate all these things and it takes a lot of
(21:23):
like understanding and awareness.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
So it all hit me like.
Speaker 9 (21:28):
Just like a hammer to the face, like all of
this was going on, but yet it hadn't really been addressed.
So I felt called to kind of organize a like
bit of a circle around the situation of like, can
we create a space where like everybody kind of shares
(21:49):
how they feel so we can all understand each other,
and then maybe we can create we can figure out
like our needs and set some boundaries.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One person in the house been feeling judged by some
of the other people in the house, and this person
was so uncomfortable they wanted to move out, which is.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Kind of kind of nuts.
Speaker 9 (22:07):
It's kind of crazy too because when the person originally
addressed us, like she kind of had to break up
with like six people. This is very intense like moment
that shattered the bullshit around and now we're we're now
we're a bit of a different dimension where things are
a bit more real, deeper and like complicated.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So Dicemel decided to consciously create a space where they could.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
All talk, and I was sort of going to.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
Set some protocols so you could like have an open
discussion about that, and it's just like the complex the
situation got very like complex. It is like different emotions,
great and sadnesss and like.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
All these things that people have been feeling for a
long time but they've never addressed. It was just like
really intense cathartic experience between a group of friends. It
was like kind of lay it all out and you
kind of like air all these things that are just
inside of you. And some of it is like.
Speaker 9 (23:13):
It's you know, it's harsh for other people to understand
or take in, but yeah, it was a lot. The
next day, I had actually set up for myself, just
been thinking about it for months, like an intentional like
mushroom journey. So like after this catharchist the next day,
(23:34):
I kind of did this whole like, you know, I
did the therapeutic playlist I'm asked psychedelic journey, which like
for me was just like super healing, supportive, like like
oh man, like and I feel like I'm accessing this
with other people. It feels like I've stepped into this
(23:57):
new party myself that I didn't really know is them,
and like it feels good to be honest with people
but be able to like express your emotions but also
like intentionally, I don't know, just be able to like
communicate yourself, stand up for yourself, but also be like
respectful to others and acknowledge that. And it's it was
(24:21):
like you just have to like not have to respond
and kind of engage in these difficult parts because they're
necessary for.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
People that need a lot of processing time.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Hi me.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Also, Francis, writing is an effective way to do that,
and no one ever has to see it. You could
pull a Rachel Bell and dump it all into a
private Twitter, or you could pull Francis and write a
pretty solid email.
Speaker 10 (24:49):
I think about you constantly. I want to sleep with
you again, if you'd ever want to do that. I've
always thought that maybe I wasn't capable of love, that
(25:10):
I was too selfish, or.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Thought there was something wrong with me. Somehow that isn't true.
I know that I've hurt you, Bobby Boss. I love you,
and I always have.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There's something that all these stories today have in common,
both with each other and with conversations with friends, and
that's that they all deal with realizing that we each
have an inner life that's rich and complex and worthy
of being respected, it's on us to give that respect
to ourselves and to the people in our lives. And sure,
we have a lot of things in common with one another,
and it's always exciting to find those moments of symmetry,
(25:54):
but it's actually the way we contrast each other that
we need to remember to celebrate.
Speaker 11 (25:59):
One of the things about being in a relationship that
stands the test of time a little bit is a
growing awareness and appreciation for differences.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Here's doctor Martha Kelpy.
Speaker 11 (26:10):
So this is just a normal stage of a relationship
for me, the stage where you wake up and realize,
oh my gosh, I really didn't know you, or I
thought some things about you that turn out not to
be true, or who the heck are you anyway? And
then there are opportunities at that point to either grow
into appreciating differences and continuing to stay connected, or to
(26:32):
let the relationship go. And relationships that last people make
the decision Okay, I'm going to stick with it for
one reason or another. And I think in order to
get through that sort of really difficult stage to a solid, excellent,
long term relationship requires strategically and intentionally developing an appreciation
(26:56):
of differences. It's not exciting or likely that any of
us are going to have a relationship with somebody who's
just like us. And if I did have a relationship
with somebody who was just like me, I'd just be like, well,
where's the novelty in that I'm never surprised ever, you know,
And there wouldn't be anything to counterbalance my challenges. There
(27:16):
wouldn't be anything that I needed to do differently. There you,
life would be very, very boring. I think that this
speaks something to the need to appreciate diversity generally, but
also in our own homes, in our own relationships. Diversity
should be seen as a strength. So the ways that
we're different help us be stronger. If we can tolerate
(27:40):
the heat, right, if we can tolerate some conflict, we
can tolerate some hard conversations, and we can remain in
a relational stance, we can seek the connection rather than
the right, perfect answer or the one worldview.
Speaker 12 (28:00):
So I think it's super complicated, but I would take
that question globally. It's a Differences are an important topic
and one that we don't talk about enough in relationships.
We think that a successful relationship is between people who
don't have any differences. But that is absolutely not the case.
A successful relationship is between people who have come to
(28:23):
terms with their differences and figured out how to leverage
them for the greater good of all.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
I just discovered a huge difference between us, Maggie, and
I feel very weird about this right now. Okay, we
might have to break up. You write in books, you hooligan.
I write in books. Yeah, of course I write in books.
I just found a note in conversation with friends. Sorry, Sally,
Maggie wrote in your book about Janna Newsom underline what song,
(28:51):
question mark, question mark, question mark, and a bunch of hahas.
I mean, I don't get it. I mean it's quite simple. Actually,
whenever I pick up the book again, I can flip
it open, and as soon as I see some of
my writing, I've taken instantly to one of my favorite
parts of the book. I'm going to get you post
its because a book is sacred, and you should not.
I don't believe in a lot of things, but I
(29:14):
do believe that books are sacred, and especially when it's
my favorite book, I feel very strongly that you wrote
in it. I agree that books are sacred. And that
is exactly why I write in them. We celebrate them
in different ways. But I want my copy of Beautiful World.
Where are you back? I would never write in your copy.
I've never writen someone else's copy.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Aggie.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I think I think we've got a break up. I
think we can resolve this now that we've seen the
whole series, now that we've kind of grown really deep.
What are your thoughts. It's an interesting question because for
me conversations with friends, the book was a slice of
time still is it's a slice of time and a
lot of me talking to the different versions of the
(29:54):
different Nams that are walking the planet in at all
at one time, because because just like reliving those moments
with big moments in my life that ended up being
big when I didn't know they were big in complicated relationships.
But then watching the series, it's contemporary, so it's not
(30:15):
you know, twenty thirteen, twenty fifteen, when I had a
lot of those experiences, and where I have been imagining
the book. I mean, as you notice that I've been
mentioning in twine all the time I have had different boyfriends.
But when I read this book for the first time,
it's just the way that Nick talks the lack of communication,
the frustration, but also that love and attraction that existed,
(30:40):
that that power just for me, it was and Twine
talking to me. That's why it keeps coming back. And
also the fact, I mean he was in a relationship
when for half of the time that we were in
a relationship with someone that he had been with for
nine years, and he did decide to end things with
her and try and build something with me. At that point,
he was so broken and I was so broken because
(31:01):
we already we were in so much pain at that
point that it was sweet that we tried and he
had some beautiful moments, but it didn't work out. So
in the series, with Bobby and Francis being Bobby and
Francis and not being just versions of Nolam's everywhere out
of my head, it's a different experience that I really appreciate.
(31:23):
I think they did a very good job and it's
really art more than a lot of television shows these days. Yeah,
I agree. Overall, I would say, really great experience. I'm
glad that they adapted the novel the way that they did.
I saw all these choices that they made and for
(31:44):
the most part, I think I was on board with
their choices. There were a couple of sort of thematic
elements that were in the novel that didn't make it
in the series that I kind of missed. I something
that's great with Sally Rooney is ther reoccurring themes that
remind me of more common in a way. They're so different,
(32:04):
but she kind of reuses her same subject matter and
she kind of flirts with religion in a way that
I like, but instead of criticizing it in just a
normal way, she shows it also as a coping mechanism
and kind of and interesting. She has a very interesting
dialogue with religion with Frances in conversations with friends, and
(32:26):
one of her endometriosis episodes when she is in a
lot of pain in the haze and the feverish hallucination
that she goes through, she wanders into a church and
she sits there and has a conversation with herself and
in the end she passes out in that church. And
I just find that so symbolic. There's just so much symbolism,
(32:47):
and that is a part that would have been hard
to adapt. Yeah, I get why they left that out,
because I don't think it would have worked visually. I
think it would have been overly dramatic, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I also I'm just remembering that that was one of
the reasons that I really identified with Francis because I
went through a similar phase where when I was really
depressed once, I was like, maybe, like Jesus is a
solution here, ive, I know it wasn't. It turned out
it wasn't, but I did explore it.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
You know.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
For me.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
One of the things that's kind of missing from the series,
at least in the magnitude that it is in the novel,
is the concept of self harm. You know, we see
one moment in the series where Francis cuts herself, and
she kind of alludes to it in the short story,
but it's kind of a big part of the novel,
(33:38):
it is, and it isn't in how she deals with
Nick being around her. She hurts herself just pain helps
her deal with a lot of the situations. Yeah, and
also the way the series ends and the way the
book ends are technically the same, but I think I
have more hope for them in the series than I
did in the book. I disagree, interesting, Yeah, No, I
(34:02):
think in the series I really felt that and here
we go again. Oh that's the exact feeling I got
from the novel. Well, in a good I got it
in a good way, and you get it in a
bad way. I got it in a Oh got it again.
And then in the series I was like, okay again,
maybe we can do it right this time. So I
got that from the book. But it's just yeah, it's like,
(34:24):
here we go again, and she does. In the book,
she does how she does it. It's a bird eye
view of Francis and Nick kind of moving towards her
in time, and I'm with them. I'm with them on
that journey. I was really hoping too, that maybe there's
going to be a second book, but that's not how
Sally rolls. Yeah, I was hoping they do like a
(34:44):
Handmaid's Tale kind of thing, where you know, you start
with the novel and then you go to what happens next,
you know. But well, we asked Genie about it and
she kind of brought us back down to earth.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
We go off and imagine what it would be like.
Those are my favorite types movies, my favorite type of books.
I kind of leave it a little open ended so
you're not disappointed by the I mean, some people might
be disappointed with come and get me and that she's
stepping back into this situation, but I think it's kind
(35:16):
of a nice way of just like, Okay, she is
aware of the situation now, and she is going into
it with a new perspective and a bit more of
an educated perspective. So I think that that says. But
I don't think. I don't think I want to go
back and see. I think I want to let them
(35:37):
go off and experience it and then whether it fails
or works, you know, kind of just want I don't
want to know. I like give it over to the
MU diverse, you know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, A bit of
everything everywhere, all like.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I know, sat a show I don't know, emmy all.
This show is hosted and produced by Me, Maggie Bowles
and me Noa'm Gadweiser. It's written and edited by me,
with assistant editing by Noah. Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson,
(36:28):
with help from Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey, and
the entire straw Hut team. The music is by Maggie
Glass and Square Fish and Big Thanks to Aria Vishay,
Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas, and the Hulu team.
Speaker 9 (36:41):
No mag Smiles, Little.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Shild A, little show
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Bas
Straw Hut Media. So you kind of don't want it
to end, or maybe you do want it to end,
but you don't want to be alone after it ends.
Is this normal what I'm feeling right now?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Yeah, We're like, oh, yes, you've felt up too, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You so personally we talked yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Welcome
to Conversations with Friends and Strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm Nolam.
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends. We'll
meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
(00:44):
It's our final episode. I know I feel conflicted, I
feel sad. I'm gonna miss my friends, I'm gonna miss
my strangers. But today we get a lot of great stuff,
and you want to know, can you really call someone
out for hurt full behavior and communicate through a conflict.
We talked to Genie Igo about the differences between Melissa
on the page and Melissa on the screen. We learned
(01:05):
some conflict resolution techniques and Maggie tells us about the
time she waited seven years to apologize. We talk about
the series overall and our feelings and our feelings about
the series overall, and we ask some questions about a
possible season two. But first our last reekap Frances is
looking very alone. Yeah, she's kind of in a depression
(01:29):
hibernation mode, and a copy of her story arrives in
the mail, so she calls Melissa and asks why she
showed Bobby the story. Ulsa drops some major wisdom, honor,
the way you have.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Behaved has had real consequences.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Francis writes an apology email to Bobby. It's a very
good email. They reconcile, they have sex, and they start
their lives together as lovers. Time passes, she seems to
be having her life together, and then around Christmas time,
she gets an accidental phone call from Nick that ends
with Frances saying come get me. In the novel, Melissa
comes off pretty badly, and it's not hard to join
(02:02):
in with Francis and villainizing her.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
You know, she was that much a little bit harder
and not meaner, but maybe just slightly.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
This is producer Genie I go. I'm starting to kind
of think of her as our conversations with friends Shaman.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
That coldness of Melissa, I don't think really works in
the adaptation as much for on screen, because you're not
so in Frances's head and experiencing what she's experiencing. And
you see it through France's reaction that that is what
she feels and how she sees Melissa. But you know,
Melissa is a very complex person and has her own life,
(02:39):
and this is her husband, and you know it has
so many layers to it.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Your actions have impact, your writing has impact. The way
you have behaved has had real consequences. You made my
depressed husband happy for a while, and then you gave
up when things got complicated and you weren't the center
of the fucking everything. And now he's struggling again, and
(03:12):
you call me as though you're the fucking victim. Please
please leave us alone.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
I'm sorry, Melissa.
Speaker 6 (03:28):
I'm sorry for this aggressive phone call.
Speaker 7 (03:31):
It was stupid.
Speaker 6 (03:32):
I am I don't really know what I'm doing at
the moment. I'm having a hard time.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Maybe I'm sorry you're having a hard time.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Are you okay for answers?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
First of all, I think Jemima just like brings more
of a like, she brings a relatability maybe to it
that uh makes Melissa's character so much more sympathetic, you
know then in the book and also just like you know,
some of the ways that these conversations went, like for
(04:22):
the one that really stood out to me was the
one where Francis calls Melissa on the phone to ask
her why she showed Bobby her story and in the book.
I reread the conversation in the book recently because I
was like, you know, this is such a powerful moment
in the series where Melissa is able to like, you know,
Jemima as Melissa is able to give her some like
(04:44):
wisdom and you know, be a little bit harsh, well yeah,
pretty harsh, but also almost constructive, and it feels like
a catalyst. It feels like something that really changes Francis's
like perspective, whereas in the book Melissa, what Melissa says
to her doesn't necessarily seem to have that big of
(05:07):
an effect, and you know, you could make the argument
that it's all how Francis sees it, you know, versus
how it actually took place, But it really changed the
way that I felt about Melissa based on seeing it
on screen. Yeah, that's definitely what it felt to me.
It's hard because I'm a purist, but in the end,
it's like, yeah, that's a much better way to do it.
(05:27):
We get it, and it kind of shows us where
we stand and it kind of puts Francis, it humbles
her and straightens her at the same time, and she
understands kind of her perspective forair relyship with Bobby totally.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
I mean, like, think of your headspace, those like a
tunny one year twenty two year old Like it's so
you're so self involved, you know, you're so everything is
about you, Like everything is happening to you, and that moment,
it's not cool. Melissa just takes her out of it
and just gives her just like a quick reality slap
(06:04):
of like, hey, he's my husband. You have come into
my life and you have changed things and it is
not all about you, like like kind of, I don't know.
It's such a powerful conversation and it is. I think
you're right. It's such a catalyst.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
To how.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Francis kind of brings herself out of it and realizes
how selfish she's being, and like it kind of happens
so suddenly, because that is how I think as a
twenty in your early twenties, you don't really realize that
the effect you have on people as well. And it's
something I still think I'm still learning now, like with
(06:45):
friendships and relationships, and I look back and I think
I've had this experience with someone and they think it's
been totally different, and like we're it's crazy what you
do to your what you tell yourself, Like how you
tell yourself you're good friend, so you tell yourself you're
doing the right thing, but actually we all make mistakes
and all are very selfish people.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Also I think it shows it shows how mature Francis
is becoming and how big she is as a person
to kind of own own it. She does wake up,
which makes us love her more because she's a difficult
character in the book too. Every time I read this book,
I'm like, you're me and I hate you.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yeah, but like it's so true, but you like you
get so frustrated at her, but you like she's doing
the best she can as well, and like it is
a really hard time as well. It's like, you know,
you're not in college, you are grown up. Now you
were in the world, and I think Francis is realizing that,
and she, you know, with the help of Melissa and
(07:52):
with the help of like Bobby holding her accountable too.
I think that's a really important part of it as well.
But I think in order for her to go back
to Bobby as a better version, she needed that kind
of outside perspective and kind of someone who wasn't going
to sugarcoat it for her, and someone wasn't speaking out.
Even though Melissa is going through pain, you don't feel
(08:13):
like she's speaking to Francis from only a place of pain.
It's kind of a place of wisdom as well.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
Are you okay, Francis, I'm fine.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Can sound fine.
Speaker 6 (08:30):
I just haven't been the person that I should have been,
so I don't know what I'm saying now.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
I wish I had been more thoughtful.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I guess I want to apologize for that.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm going to hang up brutal but very true things.
And while it's important that she held Francis accountable, there
really wasn't any attempt at resolution. Melissa, on the other hand,
so harsh managed to stay empathetic and all that's had
us thinking about the best ways to try and resolve conflict,
because for most of us, our initial instinct is like Bobby's,
(09:13):
it's aggression.
Speaker 8 (09:14):
And it sort of will end up driving us apart.
And if we know how to hold this conversation, if
we have certain things in mind.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
This is Ranjeita Jakar. She practices and teaches nonviolent communication
skills and she talked to us all the way from Bangalore.
Speaker 8 (09:30):
So when we're talking about interactions that can potentially be
uncomfortable or that are uncomfortable and we approaching, there's a
couple of things for me that make the difference between
such a conversation leading to more connection or leading to disconnection.
I think the tendency often is to either express ourselves
unfiltered and to say here's my honesty ticket, and then
(09:54):
that becomes sort of an equivalent of dumping.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And the other, which is very common, is waiting until
things get super intense before even trying to have a conversation.
Speaker 8 (10:03):
And then with intensity, with so much I don't actually
have a lot of space to listen to either me
or you.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
If you want to have a conversation about conflict and
your goal is resolution, here are some things you can
do before entering that space.
Speaker 8 (10:15):
The first is I want to get super clear for
myself about why does this matter to me? And this
is really central to the practice of non violent communication itself,
which is that everything we do, we're doing to need
to need. Any emotion that's stimulated in us is telling
us about some need or the other that we have.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
If you're not clear about what you're feeling and why,
it'll be that much harder to try and explain it
to the other person and that much less likely you'll understand.
Speaker 8 (10:44):
So prep for sure helps with hard conversations, just a
little bit of reflection before about what happened, Why does
this matter to me? Why you know I'm feeling sad?
What is the sadness telling me about? The other part
for me is instead of saying something like you're such
a loves you friend, can I actually express my internal
experience because saying you're a lousy friend is more like
(11:08):
a judgment on the other person, and my internal experience
is more like, Hey, you said you'd show up to
help me with the work that I had on my
plate last week and I didn't see you. What happened?
I'm disappointed and I was really hoping to have your support.
With that, it becomes easier for people to hear us
will we're not blaming them, because when we blame people,
(11:28):
their defenses go up. They have a choice to either
defend themselves or to attack us back. But when I'm
actually talking about me and how your actions have impacted me,
it's a lot easier for you to hear and guessing
because it's not so much about a judgment of you,
but it's more like, this is how I'm experiencing this situation.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
When it comes to resolving conflict that feels like a pattern,
say your friend consistently hides important information from you. Francheta says,
the key is to be specific first.
Speaker 8 (11:58):
I'd suggest taking one at a time, or maybe alluding
to it, alluding to, hey, I remember this happening a
couple maybe two times in the past, or something like that,
because the more specific I can be, the less it's
likely the other person is going to hear it as
this is exactly the person you are and I know it.
And I think it's also about clarifying it enough for
(12:21):
me to get clear about my own experience enough that
I can say, at this moment, what I want to
talk about is this and this, and to really identify
what are those two or three things that I want
to talk about in this moment rather than talking about
the entirety of our experience, because that's huge, and how
(12:43):
you know, the more specific, the more granular I can be,
it's the easier it is to actually initiate a conversation
and start connecting with the other person.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Non violent communication has a four step framework. It's very
cool and very helpful. We'll link more info about Rejeta
and non violent communication practice in the show notes. And
who knows, maybe you'll win your next fight. Thank you
may have missed the point. Perhaps we're going to take
a quick break and when you come back. Maggie seven
year late Apology, Magic Mushrooms and doctor marthac Elbe shares
(13:14):
their secret ingredient in lasting relationships. Welcome back today for
our final episode, we're looking at conflict and resolution. Is
it possible to call someone out for the way they've
(13:34):
hurt you in a constructive way? What if you're the
asshole and no one calls you out on it? Remember
that story I told you in episode one about playing
in a band with my ex. The part of that
story that I left out is about the guy who
played drums at us during the time Anthony was gone.
He was not as good as Anthony. Anthony is a
musical genius.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Was not a musical genius.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
But enthusiastic in his yah, in his blase way. It
was two thousand and nine and I was nineteen going
on twenty. I was living in Long Beach and going
to school but still managing to drive down to LA
to party at least once a week. And I struck
up a friendship with Max. He was like, oh, I
play drums. I could play drums, and I was. I
think I was talking to him at a bar or something,
and I was like great. And he lived in LA.
(14:19):
He was older, he was in his thirties. He seemed
very cool to me at the time, and he started
playing drums with us instead. How long was it before
he slept with him. I can't remember exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
But not long. It is twice a pattern.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I have a really hard time separating my creative feelings
from my romantic feelings, so I think I do have
a connection to music. And that's also where I'm in
love with Michael, and he's he'll never love me back
the way that I want.
Speaker 7 (14:46):
That's because I have a very strict rule about creative
partner romances.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, it's the only the only reason.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
No strict rules about vaginas at all.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Very pro Famously,
I wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Say Max and I were ever in a relationship, but
we were fond of one another, and there were a
few instances where we crossed that line into more than.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Friends and romance of convenience.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Maybe very convenient to have a twenty one year old around,
you know.
Speaker 7 (15:12):
Yeah, well, and I think there's also the factor of, like,
we're spending a lot of time together, and we're drinking
a lot together, playing at these shows, and like that.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It just kind of happened.
Speaker 7 (15:24):
Had there been some Scaye dude in the band, I
probably would have been boning him too, So you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Would have been just definitely wasn't. So that is the
true tragedy of the story. After about seven or eight
months of playing shows with Max, Anthony said he was
thinking about rejoining the band. And this was big because
we'd really been feeling Anthony's absence in the music.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
So it wasn't just he wasn't as good as Anthony.
It's that he wasn't that good generally.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
No, And also we should also say that we weren't
that good either.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
No, Anthony was doing a lot of the heavy lifting
when it came to music and the way that we played,
And I don't think we realized how much work he
did as a drummer until we got a different drummer
who was more you know, I wasn't a fantastic guitar
player at that time. You were probably a lot better
at bass than I was at guitar, and probably at
guitar actually at that point, and we.
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Don't want to remember about really like the biggest contribution
from our time playing with Max.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Is that the sound really evolved.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
That was the first time we were playing with a
full drum kit and not using a cahone anymore, and
things gone a lot louder and a lot fuller, and
we really like went from being like a coffee shop
folk kind of thing to like a rock band.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
The way I remember it, we got an opportunity for
a show that felt like a big deal.
Speaker 7 (16:41):
I don't remember what the show was, but I can
certainly imagine us at the time saying like, this is
going to be a big show. So this is our
reason to booke Anthony instead of Max and using that
as some kind of excuse to be like, well, it's important,
so we have to make this choice.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Changing drummers doesn't have to be band switch lineups all
the time. It was the way we did it that
still just mortifies me.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It was like we ghosted our own drummer.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Rather than talking to Max about it, we just booked
the show with Anthony. It was so shitty. And I
remember it was like the day before or the day
of the show, he texted me and he said do
we have a show tonight or do we have a show?
Speaker 7 (17:26):
Oh god, I remember that moment where he texted you
and he's like he's asking right now if we have
a show.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's like, oh god, what did we tell him?
Speaker 7 (17:35):
And I also very specifically remember telling people about it
afterwards and they asked like who's like, what happened to
your ol drummer? And we would tell them the story
and we would always say, like he texted us asking
if we have a show, and we said, well, we
have a show, you don't have a show. It hurts
something horrible like that. I don't even remember if those
(17:58):
are the words that we use to him. I kind
of don't think that we would have been that cruel,
but I just remember that is the language that the
retelling took on when people asked us about what happened
to our old drummer.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Is that's how we told the story.
Speaker 7 (18:12):
So we were aware that we had done something shitty.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And that was the end of Max. No one reached
out to him to explain or to apologize, and no
one called us out for being so shitty.
Speaker 7 (18:23):
It was just like one day we were a band
and then all of a sudden, we weren't. And we
never spoke again until I mean, like I think literally
years later, because we couldn't overcome our own shame.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, we really like he would have understood. You know,
we could have said, we're going to go back to
this other drummer that we've played with and we still
want to be friends, and we really enjoyed this time together.
But we were children and we were afraid of that confrontation,
and so instead we just were shitthits about it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
When I moved to La Proper in twenty sixteen, I
passed him in the parking lot at Trader Joe's. I
waved to him, and the look he gave me was
just pure ice, and I suddenly noticed the void where
my apology should have been. So I wrote them a
message on Facebook seven years late. Hey, Max, this may
seem to come out of nowhere, but I am writing
to apologize for the shitty way I left things with
(19:17):
you and Squarefish all those years ago. Honestly, I did
a lot of shitty things when I was younger. Sometimes
I blame it on my underdeveloped frontal lobe, sometimes my
self centeredness, sometimes my starr eyed naivete translated into narcissism.
Either way, you are my friend and my collaborator, and
I just cut you out with no explanation or consideration.
(19:39):
And regardless of how mediocre my band was, that wasn't okay.
I'm sure the whole thing is Slash was just a
blip on your radar and that has completely left your mind.
But for my own peace of mind, I want you
to know that I am truly sorry. I hope your
life is happy and productive and full of beauty.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Old friend.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
PS, No, I'm not a twelve step program. Geez, can't
a girl just apologize? He read the message, but he
never responded until just a few weeks ago. It's why
the story is on my mind. All he said was
that he was thinking about me and that he hoped
I was, well, I'm glad you apologize after seven years,
and I'm glad he accepted your apology five years after that.
(20:17):
I mean that's almost twelve years. Your conflict is almost
odd enough to have its own from its Well, can
we hear a story where people solve their conflict in
a healthier and maybe faster way? Okay, how about faster
and super fresh like just happened. Remember my friend Dicemell
from episode six I mentioned he lives in a house
with a bunch of people. It's three couples, family going on.
Speaker 9 (20:41):
There's like two long standing friends business partners, like in
a band with like one of the other people. We
each have our partners and.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
This was very like interrelated.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Recently things had gotten tense.
Speaker 9 (21:02):
It all started to inspiral down into like, oh what
is this like unit is potentially like fracturing between all
of these different couples because this shit is complicated, like
living with a lot of people's fucking heart, especially when
you're in a romantic relationship, it really is difficult to
navigate all these things and it takes a lot of
(21:23):
like understanding and awareness.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
So it all hit me like.
Speaker 9 (21:28):
Just like a hammer to the face, like all of
this was going on, but yet it hadn't really been addressed.
So I felt called to kind of organize a like
bit of a circle around the situation of like, can
we create a space where like everybody kind of shares
(21:49):
how they feel so we can all understand each other,
and then maybe we can create we can figure out
like our needs and set some boundaries.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
One person in the house been feeling judged by some
of the other people in the house, and this person
was so uncomfortable they wanted to move out, which is.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Kind of kind of nuts.
Speaker 9 (22:07):
It's kind of crazy too because when the person originally
addressed us, like she kind of had to break up
with like six people. This is very intense like moment
that shattered the bullshit around and now we're we're now
we're a bit of a different dimension where things are
a bit more real, deeper and like complicated.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So Dicemel decided to consciously create a space where they could.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
All talk, and I was sort of going to.
Speaker 9 (22:37):
Set some protocols so you could like have an open
discussion about that, and it's just like the complex the
situation got very like complex. It is like different emotions,
great and sadnesss and like.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
All these things that people have been feeling for a
long time but they've never addressed. It was just like
really intense cathartic experience between a group of friends. It
was like kind of lay it all out and you
kind of like air all these things that are just
inside of you. And some of it is like.
Speaker 9 (23:13):
It's you know, it's harsh for other people to understand
or take in, but yeah, it was a lot. The
next day, I had actually set up for myself, just
been thinking about it for months, like an intentional like
mushroom journey. So like after this catharchist the next day,
(23:34):
I kind of did this whole like, you know, I
did the therapeutic playlist I'm asked psychedelic journey, which like
for me was just like super healing, supportive, like like
oh man, like and I feel like I'm accessing this
with other people. It feels like I've stepped into this
(23:57):
new party myself that I didn't really know is them,
and like it feels good to be honest with people
but be able to like express your emotions but also
like intentionally, I don't know, just be able to like
communicate yourself, stand up for yourself, but also be like
respectful to others and acknowledge that. And it's it was
(24:21):
like you just have to like not have to respond
and kind of engage in these difficult parts because they're
necessary for.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
People that need a lot of processing time.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Hi me.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Also, Francis, writing is an effective way to do that,
and no one ever has to see it. You could
pull a Rachel Bell and dump it all into a
private Twitter, or you could pull Francis and write a
pretty solid email.
Speaker 10 (24:49):
I think about you constantly. I want to sleep with
you again, if you'd ever want to do that. I've
always thought that maybe I wasn't capable of love, that
(25:10):
I was too selfish, or.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Thought there was something wrong with me. Somehow that isn't true.
I know that I've hurt you, Bobby Boss. I love you,
and I always have.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
There's something that all these stories today have in common,
both with each other and with conversations with friends, and
that's that they all deal with realizing that we each
have an inner life that's rich and complex and worthy
of being respected, it's on us to give that respect
to ourselves and to the people in our lives. And sure,
we have a lot of things in common with one another,
and it's always exciting to find those moments of symmetry,
(25:54):
but it's actually the way we contrast each other that
we need to remember to celebrate.
Speaker 11 (25:59):
One of the things about being in a relationship that
stands the test of time a little bit is a
growing awareness and appreciation for differences.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Here's doctor Martha Kelpy.
Speaker 11 (26:10):
So this is just a normal stage of a relationship
for me, the stage where you wake up and realize,
oh my gosh, I really didn't know you, or I
thought some things about you that turn out not to
be true, or who the heck are you anyway? And
then there are opportunities at that point to either grow
into appreciating differences and continuing to stay connected, or to
(26:32):
let the relationship go. And relationships that last people make
the decision Okay, I'm going to stick with it for
one reason or another. And I think in order to
get through that sort of really difficult stage to a solid, excellent,
long term relationship requires strategically and intentionally developing an appreciation
(26:56):
of differences. It's not exciting or likely that any of
us are going to have a relationship with somebody who's
just like us. And if I did have a relationship
with somebody who was just like me, I'd just be like, well,
where's the novelty in that I'm never surprised ever, you know,
And there wouldn't be anything to counterbalance my challenges. There
(27:16):
wouldn't be anything that I needed to do differently. There you,
life would be very, very boring. I think that this
speaks something to the need to appreciate diversity generally, but
also in our own homes, in our own relationships. Diversity
should be seen as a strength. So the ways that
we're different help us be stronger. If we can tolerate
(27:40):
the heat, right, if we can tolerate some conflict, we
can tolerate some hard conversations, and we can remain in
a relational stance, we can seek the connection rather than
the right, perfect answer or the one worldview.
Speaker 12 (28:00):
So I think it's super complicated, but I would take
that question globally. It's a Differences are an important topic
and one that we don't talk about enough in relationships.
We think that a successful relationship is between people who
don't have any differences. But that is absolutely not the case.
A successful relationship is between people who have come to
(28:23):
terms with their differences and figured out how to leverage
them for the greater good of all.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
I just discovered a huge difference between us, Maggie, and
I feel very weird about this right now. Okay, we
might have to break up. You write in books, you hooligan.
I write in books. Yeah, of course I write in books.
I just found a note in conversation with friends. Sorry, Sally,
Maggie wrote in your book about Janna Newsom underline what song,
(28:51):
question mark, question mark, question mark, and a bunch of hahas.
I mean, I don't get it. I mean it's quite simple. Actually,
whenever I pick up the book again, I can flip
it open, and as soon as I see some of
my writing, I've taken instantly to one of my favorite
parts of the book. I'm going to get you post
its because a book is sacred, and you should not.
I don't believe in a lot of things, but I
(29:14):
do believe that books are sacred, and especially when it's
my favorite book, I feel very strongly that you wrote
in it. I agree that books are sacred. And that
is exactly why I write in them. We celebrate them
in different ways. But I want my copy of Beautiful World.
Where are you back? I would never write in your copy.
I've never writen someone else's copy.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Aggie.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I think I think we've got a break up. I
think we can resolve this now that we've seen the
whole series, now that we've kind of grown really deep.
What are your thoughts. It's an interesting question because for
me conversations with friends, the book was a slice of
time still is it's a slice of time and a
lot of me talking to the different versions of the
(29:54):
different Nams that are walking the planet in at all
at one time, because because just like reliving those moments
with big moments in my life that ended up being
big when I didn't know they were big in complicated relationships.
But then watching the series, it's contemporary, so it's not
(30:15):
you know, twenty thirteen, twenty fifteen, when I had a
lot of those experiences, and where I have been imagining
the book. I mean, as you notice that I've been
mentioning in twine all the time I have had different boyfriends.
But when I read this book for the first time,
it's just the way that Nick talks the lack of communication,
the frustration, but also that love and attraction that existed,
(30:40):
that that power just for me, it was and Twine
talking to me. That's why it keeps coming back. And
also the fact, I mean he was in a relationship
when for half of the time that we were in
a relationship with someone that he had been with for
nine years, and he did decide to end things with
her and try and build something with me. At that point,
he was so broken and I was so broken because
(31:01):
we already we were in so much pain at that
point that it was sweet that we tried and he
had some beautiful moments, but it didn't work out. So
in the series, with Bobby and Francis being Bobby and
Francis and not being just versions of Nolam's everywhere out
of my head, it's a different experience that I really appreciate.
(31:23):
I think they did a very good job and it's
really art more than a lot of television shows these days. Yeah,
I agree. Overall, I would say, really great experience. I'm
glad that they adapted the novel the way that they did.
I saw all these choices that they made and for
(31:44):
the most part, I think I was on board with
their choices. There were a couple of sort of thematic
elements that were in the novel that didn't make it
in the series that I kind of missed. I something
that's great with Sally Rooney is ther reoccurring themes that
remind me of more common in a way. They're so different,
(32:04):
but she kind of reuses her same subject matter and
she kind of flirts with religion in a way that
I like, but instead of criticizing it in just a
normal way, she shows it also as a coping mechanism
and kind of and interesting. She has a very interesting
dialogue with religion with Frances in conversations with friends, and
(32:26):
one of her endometriosis episodes when she is in a
lot of pain in the haze and the feverish hallucination
that she goes through, she wanders into a church and
she sits there and has a conversation with herself and
in the end she passes out in that church. And
I just find that so symbolic. There's just so much symbolism,
(32:47):
and that is a part that would have been hard
to adapt. Yeah, I get why they left that out,
because I don't think it would have worked visually. I
think it would have been overly dramatic, exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
I also I'm just remembering that that was one of
the reasons that I really identified with Francis because I
went through a similar phase where when I was really
depressed once, I was like, maybe, like Jesus is a
solution here, ive, I know it wasn't. It turned out
it wasn't, but I did explore it.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
You know.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
For me.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
One of the things that's kind of missing from the series,
at least in the magnitude that it is in the novel,
is the concept of self harm. You know, we see
one moment in the series where Francis cuts herself, and
she kind of alludes to it in the short story,
but it's kind of a big part of the novel,
(33:38):
it is, and it isn't in how she deals with
Nick being around her. She hurts herself just pain helps
her deal with a lot of the situations. Yeah, and
also the way the series ends and the way the
book ends are technically the same, but I think I
have more hope for them in the series than I
did in the book. I disagree, interesting, Yeah, No, I
(34:02):
think in the series I really felt that and here
we go again. Oh that's the exact feeling I got
from the novel. Well, in a good I got it
in a good way, and you get it in a
bad way. I got it in a Oh got it again.
And then in the series I was like, okay again,
maybe we can do it right this time. So I
got that from the book. But it's just yeah, it's like,
(34:24):
here we go again, and she does. In the book,
she does how she does it. It's a bird eye
view of Francis and Nick kind of moving towards her
in time, and I'm with them. I'm with them on
that journey. I was really hoping too, that maybe there's
going to be a second book, but that's not how
Sally rolls. Yeah, I was hoping they do like a
(34:44):
Handmaid's Tale kind of thing, where you know, you start
with the novel and then you go to what happens next,
you know. But well, we asked Genie about it and
she kind of brought us back down to earth.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
We go off and imagine what it would be like.
Those are my favorite types movies, my favorite type of books.
I kind of leave it a little open ended so
you're not disappointed by the I mean, some people might
be disappointed with come and get me and that she's
stepping back into this situation, but I think it's kind
(35:16):
of a nice way of just like, Okay, she is
aware of the situation now, and she is going into
it with a new perspective and a bit more of
an educated perspective. So I think that that says. But
I don't think. I don't think I want to go
back and see. I think I want to let them
(35:37):
go off and experience it and then whether it fails
or works, you know, kind of just want I don't
want to know. I like give it over to the
MU diverse, you know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, A bit of
everything everywhere, all like.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I know, sat a show I don't know, emmy all.
This show is hosted and produced by Me, Maggie Bowles
and me Noa'm Gadweiser. It's written and edited by me,
with assistant editing by Noah. Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson,
(36:28):
with help from Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey, and
the entire straw Hut team. The music is by Maggie
Glass and Square Fish and Big Thanks to Aria Vishay,
Lauren Thorpe, Exavior Salas, and the Hulu team.
Speaker 9 (36:41):
No mag Smiles, Little.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Shild A, little show
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Bas
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