May 16, 2022 • 27 mins
What happens when a crush becomes more than just a crush? Producer Jeanie Igoe tells us all about filming in Croatia and the sublime experience that is Sallay Garnett’s voice. Actor Tadgh Murphy describes the wisdom that comes with age and encourages everyone to have an affair.
And science writer Sheril Kirshenbaum comes back to teach us about nature’s ultimate litmus test, the kiss, and helps us figure out what happens to our bodies when we kiss someone we like.
Sheril Kirshenbaum’s book, The Science of Kissing
https://www.grandcentralpublishing.com/titles/sheril-kirshenbaum/the-science-of-kissing/9780446575133/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
And science writer Sheril Kirshenbaum comes back to teach us about nature’s ultimate litmus test, the kiss, and helps us figure out what happens to our bodies when we kiss someone we like.
Sheril Kirshenbaum’s book, The Science of Kissing
https://www.grandcentralpublishing.com/titles/sheril-kirshenbaum/the-science-of-kissing/9780446575133/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/conversations-with-friends-strangers--5711089/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Well, friends, now we're no longer strangers none mus stay.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm Nolahm.
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Today, we want to talk about what happens when a
crush becomes more than just a crush. We'll talk to
producer Genie Igo about filming in Croatia and the sublime
experience that is Sally Garnett's voice that Tim Buckley cover
gave me goosebumps. Actor Tag Murphy describes the wisdom that
comes with age and encourages everyone to have an affair.
(00:50):
You think I'm joking, No, this is the most serious
I've ever seen you. Then, science writer Cheryl Kirshenbaum is
back to teach us all about nature's ultimate litmus test
kiss and help us figure out what happens to our
bodies when we kiss him. Whe we like, besides goosebumps,
I only get goosebumps for saleh Oh, you're a monogamoust
are you?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I might be.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
But first, here's a recap of what happened on the show.
Francis and Bobby arrive in Croatia. It's bonkers beautiful. Nick
is quite friendly, but he hasn't been well. There's another
couple there, Evelyn and Derek. They're Nick and Melissa's friends
will Bobby's whimming. Nick and Francis talk and he apologizes,
and later on they see each other in the kitchen
(01:31):
while everyone else is sleeping, and she learns that Nick
and Melissa are staying in separate rooms. Feelings are definitely
developing there. Francis gets a call from her dad. He
sounds weird.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Things are clearly not good with him, and she opens
up to Nick a little bit about it.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Bobby wants to go on a hike with Francis, just
the two of them. Francis says yes at first, but
then she ends up bailing and in case he didn't
get enough sex. In episode three, Nick and Francis are
back at it again. So in this novel, the trip
they take is to northern France. Yeah, yeah, but in
the show they go to Croatia instead, so we were
curious why they changed the location and we asked Jeanie
(02:07):
Igo about it.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We kind of wanted something very very different aesthetic than
what they had shot in normal people, you know, not
that asially in France, that similar, but just kind of
that kind of out of town country home. We looked
at Greece and Croatia. We looked at some parts of
Spain as well, kind of like on the coast, but
(02:29):
we automatically knew we wanted something that would be kind
of striking me different, and Croatia we kind of all
fell in love with it. We picked like a tiny
island have our made a very unproduction friendly, picked beaches,
very hard to get to, but it was so worthwhile.
It was so beautiful. Our line producer Katrina kept having
(02:50):
to tell us to stop calling me at the holiday
because we were like, oh, when we're on holiday in Croatia,
and she was like, no, no, we have four weeks
of work to do. So everyone moned to go on
that trip, everyone monitored to be part of it. We
wanted everyone there and then we got to meet a
whole new group of people. The Croatian crew who are
just amazing and so welcoming and also such a high
(03:13):
standard of a crew, Like we were really lucky and
just these amazing locations and swimming every day the sea,
and yeah, it was it was dreamy. It was really hard,
Like there was some tough nights and we were trying
to get a little done and really against the clock,
and anything that could go wrong was going wrong. At
the last week, with lightning storms every night, we had
(03:36):
to like shut down every night to go underneath the
Stonewall House and then sit quietly in a room together.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Will always made it for lightning to pass.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Long float, shipless sotion. I did all my best small.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Till you're singing thing, do me loving to that?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right there is the inimitable voice of Sale Garnett aka Lowe,
who plays Evelyn in the series, and she's singing a
Tim Buckley song called Song to the Siren.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
Apparently people cried on set when they heard her sing.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's music supervisor Juliette Martin.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
There was like crew members who were crying. Yeah, because
I suppose she's just the most gorgeous person to start with.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But we picked that song.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
We had something kind of that much happier, and then
I sort of, I think Nathan or Lenny said, moment,
let's maybe try something a bit darker. So I sent
him a number of tracks and we had that one
and a Gillian Welsh one. I think that he kind
of narrowed it down to and then Sally just did
some amazing demos on her and yeah, like I think
(05:02):
Lenny was just drawn to that one.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
You know, that could have felt quite performative, but it
didn't because just how easy and subtle and beautiful that
moment was. How it was about those dynamics, you know,
but we were kind of reaching this kind of climax
between Nick and Francis on the holiday, you know, and
then just having that beautiful song along kind of play
(05:28):
in the background there.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
It's just it was great.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And the actor who plays Derek Evelyn's partner, he's the
one drumming softly along on the guitar, that is Tig Murphy.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Tig is like the funniest You would think you would
get tired of Tig and how funny he is, but
because he's like so many jokes, you never get tired
of it. He is the best person ever, well.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Friendly and we like welcoming people, you know, So are
you Maggie, I'm Maggie, Yes Maggie, and no, no I
am I'm not saying that perfect thank you and.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Your tave Tag.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So if you think of Tiger and then take out
the earth man, I was like so.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Proud myself for seeing the d h and being like
that's a v sound.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
But no, you got that wrong. My name is Tiger
Murphy and I'm an actor.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Tag talk to us from Dublin after dinner time. Well,
his two year old son Rhiann take a bath in
the other room.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Like, I've had all those those experiences, and they're different
to when you're older, obviously, you know, but when they're happening,
when they're occurring for the first time, if you're lucky
enough to have those experiences, you know, they're all like,
oh my god, so in talents and dramatic yeah, and
they feel very like a really big deal and they
are at the time, but you know later in life
(06:51):
that ship just slides like it's not do it be
comes less of drama, you know, because relationships are complicated
full stop. And I guess you, if you're lucky, you
can sit easier in the mud when you're older, when
you're younger, that that murky place can be a little
(07:12):
bit just orientazing, you know. So when I read the book,
I think that's the experience. It was nostalgic for me.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, I felt nostalgic. And I'm thirty two, so and
I felt very nostalgic for it because it is a
very like twenty one year old experience, you know, before
you understand how time goes on, you know, how life
goes on, and if things feel like literally the world
is going to end.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And it was something about the It was it was
quite raw, quite sort of naive in parts, and it
wasn't restrained that in that way. So it was sort
of a fun read. And it's nice for someone to
sort of hold your hands and take you back to
your past and go and you and you can next
(08:00):
to you. Then obviously you go, oh yeah, fuck, everyone
has these experiences, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Do you remember back in our first episode when we
heard from Tag the first time, just briefly, he told
us about a Tom Stoppard phrase, the quickening.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
The quickening is when you you're in a relationship, but
you walk into a room and you spot someone else
and they spot you and you have an understanding that
you are one another's possibility.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Nick and Francis choose to explore that possibility.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Because quite simply, they see one another and they're not
being seen by other people. As of course they go together,
and I think all human beings should do that if
they're not being seen by their If you're with a
partner and for whatever reason they're not seeing you anymore,
they may be working way for a couple of months,
might be really hard, Like why you fu can waste
(08:52):
your time being so miserable all the time be with
someone else for a bit, Yeah, figure it out, get
into the mud, you know, and enjoy it. And it's
like being a relationship is hard, but also, you know,
being in multiple relationships is very hard. I would imagine,
you know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It sounds like you're not you're not a strict monogamous then,
at least in theory.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
In my past, I certainly haven't been at all. I
don't think I was ever faithful in any relationship ever.
Maybe in my teens, like you know, but I wasn't.
I you know, I enjoyed people too much, so it
wasn't I got hurt as well. Obviously it was you know,
but in my current relationship I have. I know that
(09:38):
I have the freedom if I wanted to investigate a
relationship with someone else, but I have no ambition to
do that because I feel i'm at at present I'm
much more interested in nurturing the relationship that I'm in.
And of course a new dad and you know, we
have a beautiful two year old and we've been together
(10:01):
for four years, five years, five years, four years, four
or five who cares. But it's really it's a really
it's the most expansive experience I've ever had with another
human beings. So I don't know why I would. I
can't imagine how. I just don't have that curiosity. I
(10:22):
feel like it's sort of I've sort of exercised that
in my history, and I'm just saying.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
That this is it.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Like I'm I I'm not interested in getting married or
anything like that, and neither not just my partner, we
don't believe in that.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, it sounds like you kind of got it out
of your system for now.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, it's that, I guess that's the thing. See, that's
I always recommend that people have affairs because so my
relationship that I'm in now actually began as an affair,
and it was I mean, thank God, and it was
you know, it's it was accidental. I was someone that
I really cared about. But then this other human being
(11:04):
came in. The quickening happened and I felt I tried
to not pursue it, actually, but it was unstoppable. It
was an unstoppable force. In fact, the night that I
met her, she swapped clothes and nothing happened this point.
We just swapped clothes and I was wearing her dress,
(11:26):
she was wearing my clothes, and she did it an impersonation.
She known me for an hour. She did an impersonation
of me to my friends with my friend's party, and
she did an impersonation of me, and it was so
accurate and mean. I couldn't believe that she couldn't believe
how well she got me down. She had me absolutely nailed.
So how can you not pursue that?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So she saw you, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That is exactly what I'm saying. And I believe that
I reciprocated that site And as is the case with
most profound relations, we had an extraordinary moment and I
believe that we felt we couldn't pretend that that wasn't
that that didn't exist. So it was a long couple
(12:10):
of months. What the fucking affair? Oh my god, like
so much fun because it's all it.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Sounds wrong and hurting people and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, it's exciting, it's forbidden.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Of course it is, and everybody should do it. Everybody
should do it, and it was. You know, it's one
of those things where you go, may or may not
work out, but you should have that experience because you
don't want to be you don't want to be struck
down with an illness, lying in the bed having had
these opportunities and not be able to ruminate on them
when you're fucking on the way out. You know, I
(12:44):
think it's really important to experience the edges.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Experience the edges. Okay, we're going to take a quick
break and when we come back, we'll have Sheryl Chirstianbaum
to talk more about kissing and try and understand what
is happening to our bodies when we kiss someone we like.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Welcome Back, episode four gives us croatia, and when Frances
and Nick reconnect physically at the end of the episode,
that kiss feels different.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
That fear of loss just makes it so much more powerful.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
The camera swirls around them and it's like you can
feel that energy, that tension and then the release of
that tension, and it feels so good.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It so does.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So let's talk more about kissing. Nom have you ever
kissed someone and you were like, ooh, nope, not for me,
this is not right. Yes, yes, yes I have. Thank
you for reminding me.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
There's lots of reasons why a first kiss, especially might
not feel so good. I like to say it's nature's
ultimate litmus test.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Here's science writer Cheryl Kershenbaum.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
So a kiss can either bring us closer together, signifying
you know, maybe this is a great match chemically, maybe
this is a great match from mother Nature's perspective that
you know this parish you would go off and have
really healthy kids, or maybe things don't feel so good.
And there's probably a lot of reasons stress and kissing
don't mix obviously, so like if it's the wrong situation,
(14:26):
the wrong environment, even a really great match might not
feel so good. But there are other things that we're
not consciously thinking about that are pushing us or pulling
us towards something or someone there's a segment in our DNA,
in our genetic code called the major histo compatibility complex,
and it's a set of genes that codes for our
immune systems. So research is actually demonstrated that people with
(14:48):
very distinct, so very different sets of this code for
our immunity, they tend to be attracted to this sense
of the other person women in particular, So women like
the sense of men with a different genetic code for
their immune systems. In short, it's also worth pointing out
that women on the birth control of PELL seem to
(15:09):
have the opposite preference, So that might suggest that we're
tricking our bodies hormonally in ways that we may or
may not realize. It's just some really interesting stuff in
the fields of you know, how our noses work and
how our genes work, and why all of these different
clues tell us whether or not someone might be well
suited for a longer relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
How does a kiss plain in all of that, Because
sometimes we kiss someone and unexpectedly it's a great kiss
and we didn't expect.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It to be so great.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
So when we're right up close kissing someone, we're absolutely
in their personal space and they're in our personal space,
and we're closer than we would normally be in any
kind of casual encounter. So what that is is that's
a really reliable chance to get their stent and to
take signals from that in our bodies and brains, and
you know how we feel consciously and how our bodies
(15:59):
are responding to them with whether or not we want
to stick around and be with them. And as I
said earlier, you know these are cues that are really
important to women. So women are the ones who put
a lot more emphasis on how a person smells, what
taste is like, you know, whether or not they're enjoying
the kiss to go forward, what the kiss means in
terms of like long term relationship potential. And this probably
(16:21):
has to do with from a reproductive standpoint, women have
far fewer opportunities to pair off and find someone to
reproduce with. And I know that sounds like super biological
and not romantic at all, but that is driving a
lot of our decisions. So as women, we have a
limited number of years, a few days a month where
we might get pregnant, and we've got to figure out
(16:42):
who the best person to get half that genetic material
that's going to be part of our offspring from is
and a kiss is one of the best opportunities to
do so.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And so with that like kind of heteronormative biological that's
a good point point of view about I'm curious about
like where the research and that goes into the non
heterosexual relationships, intimacy, that sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
I am so glad you asked that question, and I
should have prefaced the other part by saying, yeah. So, Unfortunately,
much of the research to date has been on heteronormative relationships,
so male women pairs. However, I think that that's starting
to change. When I was working on the book, I
actually got to get involved with a neuroscientist at New
York University and we wanted to see how the brain
(17:32):
changed when kissing was involved.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
The machine they were using for that study is called
a magneto encygilography machine Magneto and Cephalography Magneto and psycho MEG,
and it measures the magnetic fields produced by your brain's
electrical currents. And it's built for one person.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
We couldn't put like two heads into it brain scanning
machine and tell them to make out and see if
that would work, because two people weren't going to fit.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But they also know that we humans have this thing
in our brains where we can watch things happen to
someone else and feel them in our own bodies mirror neurons,
probable mirror neurons.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
I mean, it might be one of the reasons pornography
is so popular, but it is definitely one of the
reasons why we see sometimes we see people kissing films
and we just feel like, oh, it's so sweet, it's
so romantic, Like it's these probable mirror neurons firing in
our brains making us feel something similar. So long story short,
we set up an experiment where we put men and
women in this machine and we show them different kinds
(18:26):
of images of kissing, and we wanted to see what
their brains would do. And it was really important to
me and the other people involved in the study to
include to include homosexual, heterosexual, non binary folks in the experiment.
And we did see some differences in people's reactions to kissing.
But then we reposed with this really big problem with
how do we talk about different brain responses to kissing
(18:49):
and sexuality in a way that won't be sensationalized by
the media To somehow say that gain straight kissing is
different because we had same sex pairs, we had sex pairs,
be a parent, in child pairs, grandpar we had all
different things.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And what they found was there was a stronger brain
change when they showed the people in the machines images
of same sex kissing.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
And what we think is going on is that there's
a novelty effect to how our brains respond. And in
popular culture, we're a lot more use to on screen
in our literature, on billboards seeing male female pairs making out.
We think it was that kind of novelty phenomenon that
accounted for this difference we saw. But then I thought,
oh my goodness, someone is going to take this completely
(19:32):
out of context and draw this absolutely bogus conclusion that
these are somehow different. I'm sharing this story just to say,
you know, there's so much we still don't know about kissing,
and there's so many people that haven't been traditionally included
in scientific research. Broadly, much of the research in so
many areas of behavior has primarily been done on like
(19:52):
white heterosexual men, and so I think that that's starting
to change, especially in the last ten fifteen years. But
there's a lot we still have to learn so.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Much to learn and beyond this biological aspect of kissing
and what it does to our bodies, there's a lot
to take into account culturally.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
What's familiar and normal to us that we grow up
with in our own families very much plays a role
into what kind of neural pathways or laid down early
on to make us feel associated, appropriateness of you know,
kissing a partner, what that looks like. So even in
different parts of the country, you know, what's okay somewhere
kind of is looked at as taboo somewhere else, And
(20:28):
of course that plays a role into things like, oh,
we should be kissing right, or if we're going to
have an affair outside of our own relationship, how we
might feel about that. Is that exciting? Does that cause
us guilt? So all of these different kind of feelings
can get involved, and what that experience.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Is if you're really excited about an affair, just like
you'd be in a brand new relationship, can't stop thinking
about them, rebeading decks, obsessing, stocking their Instagram, building a
shrine with their belly button, lnd disgusting.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
That is that serotonin often you know associated with obsessive
compulsive disorder, but it's also involved in those exciting feelings
of kissing. And I think if it's an affair, if
it's a brand new relationship, if it's like sexually exciting,
that's going to be very involved in the experience the
dopamine as well. But then, of course, if you've grown
up with this taboo of any kind of intimacy outside
(21:17):
of formal marriage, which we see in certain parts of
the world more than others, but even in parts of
the US as well, there's going to be a potential
stigma associated with it. It might never feel that great
because the sensations are tied to all of these other
complex emotions that you've grown up with, or the religious
people in your life might have informed you you know,
isn't right. So the thing about kissing is, while it
(21:39):
is this I think a universal language in our lives,
like it's a way to really show someone how you feel,
and our earliest associations with love and intimacy and security,
often as newborns, involves lips stimulation. The lips are so
packed with sensitive nerve endings. They are just our most
exposed orrogenist zone in many ways, and you know, the
(22:01):
brain's response to lip stimulation is huge compared to like
the small amount of our body that it involves, so's
it's quite extraordinary, and we're engaging all our senses when
we do it. But ultimately the experience is really unique
to each of us based on the environment where we
grew up, and that based on the person that we're with.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
You know what this makes me think of? What remember?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Back in episode two, Laff told us about his first
kiss with his lover at the time, Aria in the
Porte Coche when the sixty limbo, when they just they
bought their faces really close together and just looked at
each other for a really really long time. I mean,
it's not even a kiss, but it's just so romantic
and it's Yeah, I think that's the most kiss like
(22:49):
non kiss I've ever heard of.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
And it's funny. It's kind of like the exact opposite
of that is kissing in old Hollywood movies where the
guy and the girl get together and they just smush
their faces together. It's not even like I don't even
know if their mouths are touching, they're just.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Mouth they're definitely touching. It's kind of like when kids.
You know, when you do like the kissing symbol with
your finger and it's called.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It looks exactly it looks exactly like that, and it's
it's so weird, and I can't imagine it being romantic
at all, even though it kind of is romantic in
some movies, I meaning Casa Blanket is. But it's the music,
it's the mood, it's the atmosphere. That's the exact movie
that was playing in my mind as I was saying
it too. I don't understand how we got from portraying
(23:35):
kisses like this to just feeling so romantic to staring
at each other in real life. Like, what does Cheryl
have to say about the history of kissing? Okay, well,
she goes back even farther than Casablanca. She says that
the first written evidence of kissing dates back about thirty
five hundred years to something called the Vedic Sanskrit scriptures.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And there's no word for kissing, but there are things
like nibbling at each other's lips or licking at each
other's lips, or and there's something about touching the navel
of the world, which you know, transcribers think this has
to do with some kind of earlier kiss. And you
also have to keep in mind it wasn't until recently
that human beings were brushing our teeth and using mouthflash
quite as often, so the kissing experience probably would have
(24:19):
been a little different.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And kissing like behavior is present in the animal kingdom too,
even though we can't really make any value judgments on
an animal's motivation.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
It's called anthropomorphizing, so you're like seeing what you think
in animal feels. But if you look at a whole
bunch of other species bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, many of them
are connecting in similar ways, and not just because they
are intimate with another partner.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And another interesting mouth connection is pre chewing food like
a mama bird. I've done it before, have you for
a baby or for a lover? A little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's weird.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
I know that doesn't sound romantic, But before we had
baby food, humans were also feeding each other, feeding their newborns,
feeding the elderly, the sick by preaching food and passing
it to them. So these very early experiences as newborns
are built into how we experience things later on. So
when we started our lives and we connected with surging
(25:14):
oxytocin and changing dopamine and all of these things associated
with those warm, secure, comfortable feelings. When we want to
express that we really care about someone ten twenty thirty
years later, we think, oh, I use my mouth, I kissed,
and that bolsters the same the same neuro transmitters and
hormones in our bodies that those very early experiences did.
(25:35):
So I think it's probably been occurring in some form
for as long as people have been around.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
In our next episode, we ask the question whether or
not it is possible to be in love with more
than one person at the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Great question.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
It's sat a show, I don't know, emmy all. This
show is hosted and produced by me, Maggie Bowles, and
me Noah Gadweiser. It's written and edited by me, with
assistant editing by Noah. Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson,
with help from Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and
(26:37):
the entire Straw Hut team. Theme music is by Maggie
Glass and Square Fish and Big thanks to Ariyabashi, Lauren Thorpe,
Exavior Salas, and the Hulu team. Mag smiles.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Shi, a child
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Well, friends, now we're no longer strangers none mus stay.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Conversations with Friends and Strangers. I'm Maggie, I'm Nolahm.
In the show, we take a closer look at the
complicated relationships in the Hulu series Conversations with Friends.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
We'll meet some of the cast and crew, chat with experts,
and share our own kind of sexy, kind of uncomfortable,
but relatable stories about the messy relationships we find ourselves in.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Today, we want to talk about what happens when a
crush becomes more than just a crush. We'll talk to
producer Genie Igo about filming in Croatia and the sublime
experience that is Sally Garnett's voice that Tim Buckley cover
gave me goosebumps. Actor Tag Murphy describes the wisdom that
comes with age and encourages everyone to have an affair.
(00:50):
You think I'm joking, No, this is the most serious
I've ever seen you. Then, science writer Cheryl Kirshenbaum is
back to teach us all about nature's ultimate litmus test
kiss and help us figure out what happens to our
bodies when we kiss him. Whe we like, besides goosebumps,
I only get goosebumps for saleh Oh, you're a monogamoust
are you?
Speaker 4 (01:10):
I might be.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
But first, here's a recap of what happened on the show.
Francis and Bobby arrive in Croatia. It's bonkers beautiful. Nick
is quite friendly, but he hasn't been well. There's another
couple there, Evelyn and Derek. They're Nick and Melissa's friends
will Bobby's whimming. Nick and Francis talk and he apologizes,
and later on they see each other in the kitchen
(01:31):
while everyone else is sleeping, and she learns that Nick
and Melissa are staying in separate rooms. Feelings are definitely
developing there. Francis gets a call from her dad. He
sounds weird.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Things are clearly not good with him, and she opens
up to Nick a little bit about it.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Bobby wants to go on a hike with Francis, just
the two of them. Francis says yes at first, but
then she ends up bailing and in case he didn't
get enough sex. In episode three, Nick and Francis are
back at it again. So in this novel, the trip
they take is to northern France. Yeah, yeah, but in
the show they go to Croatia instead, so we were
curious why they changed the location and we asked Jeanie
(02:07):
Igo about it.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We kind of wanted something very very different aesthetic than
what they had shot in normal people, you know, not
that asially in France, that similar, but just kind of
that kind of out of town country home. We looked
at Greece and Croatia. We looked at some parts of
Spain as well, kind of like on the coast, but
(02:29):
we automatically knew we wanted something that would be kind
of striking me different, and Croatia we kind of all
fell in love with it. We picked like a tiny
island have our made a very unproduction friendly, picked beaches,
very hard to get to, but it was so worthwhile.
It was so beautiful. Our line producer Katrina kept having
(02:50):
to tell us to stop calling me at the holiday
because we were like, oh, when we're on holiday in Croatia,
and she was like, no, no, we have four weeks
of work to do. So everyone moned to go on
that trip, everyone monitored to be part of it. We
wanted everyone there and then we got to meet a
whole new group of people. The Croatian crew who are
just amazing and so welcoming and also such a high
(03:13):
standard of a crew, Like we were really lucky and
just these amazing locations and swimming every day the sea,
and yeah, it was it was dreamy. It was really hard,
Like there was some tough nights and we were trying
to get a little done and really against the clock,
and anything that could go wrong was going wrong. At
the last week, with lightning storms every night, we had
(03:36):
to like shut down every night to go underneath the
Stonewall House and then sit quietly in a room together.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Will always made it for lightning to pass.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Long float, shipless sotion. I did all my best small.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Till you're singing thing, do me loving to that?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Right there is the inimitable voice of Sale Garnett aka Lowe,
who plays Evelyn in the series, and she's singing a
Tim Buckley song called Song to the Siren.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
Apparently people cried on set when they heard her sing.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's music supervisor Juliette Martin.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
There was like crew members who were crying. Yeah, because
I suppose she's just the most gorgeous person to start with.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But we picked that song.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
We had something kind of that much happier, and then
I sort of, I think Nathan or Lenny said, moment,
let's maybe try something a bit darker. So I sent
him a number of tracks and we had that one
and a Gillian Welsh one. I think that he kind
of narrowed it down to and then Sally just did
some amazing demos on her and yeah, like I think
(05:02):
Lenny was just drawn to that one.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
You know, that could have felt quite performative, but it
didn't because just how easy and subtle and beautiful that
moment was. How it was about those dynamics, you know,
but we were kind of reaching this kind of climax
between Nick and Francis on the holiday, you know, and
then just having that beautiful song along kind of play
(05:28):
in the background there.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
It's just it was great.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And the actor who plays Derek Evelyn's partner, he's the
one drumming softly along on the guitar, that is Tig Murphy.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Tig is like the funniest You would think you would
get tired of Tig and how funny he is, but
because he's like so many jokes, you never get tired
of it. He is the best person ever, well.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Friendly and we like welcoming people, you know, So are
you Maggie, I'm Maggie, Yes Maggie, and no, no I
am I'm not saying that perfect thank you and.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Your tave Tag.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So if you think of Tiger and then take out
the earth man, I was like so.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Proud myself for seeing the d h and being like
that's a v sound.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
But no, you got that wrong. My name is Tiger
Murphy and I'm an actor.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Tag talk to us from Dublin after dinner time. Well,
his two year old son Rhiann take a bath in
the other room.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Like, I've had all those those experiences, and they're different
to when you're older, obviously, you know, but when they're happening,
when they're occurring for the first time, if you're lucky
enough to have those experiences, you know, they're all like,
oh my god, so in talents and dramatic yeah, and
they feel very like a really big deal and they
are at the time, but you know later in life
(06:51):
that ship just slides like it's not do it be
comes less of drama, you know, because relationships are complicated
full stop. And I guess you, if you're lucky, you
can sit easier in the mud when you're older, when
you're younger, that that murky place can be a little
(07:12):
bit just orientazing, you know. So when I read the book,
I think that's the experience. It was nostalgic for me.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, I felt nostalgic. And I'm thirty two, so and
I felt very nostalgic for it because it is a
very like twenty one year old experience, you know, before
you understand how time goes on, you know, how life
goes on, and if things feel like literally the world
is going to end.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And it was something about the It was it was
quite raw, quite sort of naive in parts, and it
wasn't restrained that in that way. So it was sort
of a fun read. And it's nice for someone to
sort of hold your hands and take you back to
your past and go and you and you can next
(08:00):
to you. Then obviously you go, oh yeah, fuck, everyone
has these experiences, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Do you remember back in our first episode when we
heard from Tag the first time, just briefly, he told
us about a Tom Stoppard phrase, the quickening.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
The quickening is when you you're in a relationship, but
you walk into a room and you spot someone else
and they spot you and you have an understanding that
you are one another's possibility.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Nick and Francis choose to explore that possibility.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Because quite simply, they see one another and they're not
being seen by other people. As of course they go together,
and I think all human beings should do that if
they're not being seen by their If you're with a
partner and for whatever reason they're not seeing you anymore,
they may be working way for a couple of months,
might be really hard, Like why you fu can waste
(08:52):
your time being so miserable all the time be with
someone else for a bit, Yeah, figure it out, get
into the mud, you know, and enjoy it. And it's
like being a relationship is hard, but also, you know,
being in multiple relationships is very hard. I would imagine,
you know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It sounds like you're not you're not a strict monogamous then,
at least in theory.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
In my past, I certainly haven't been at all. I
don't think I was ever faithful in any relationship ever.
Maybe in my teens, like you know, but I wasn't.
I you know, I enjoyed people too much, so it
wasn't I got hurt as well. Obviously it was you know,
but in my current relationship I have. I know that
(09:38):
I have the freedom if I wanted to investigate a
relationship with someone else, but I have no ambition to
do that because I feel i'm at at present I'm
much more interested in nurturing the relationship that I'm in.
And of course a new dad and you know, we
have a beautiful two year old and we've been together
(10:01):
for four years, five years, five years, four years, four
or five who cares. But it's really it's a really
it's the most expansive experience I've ever had with another
human beings. So I don't know why I would. I
can't imagine how. I just don't have that curiosity. I
(10:22):
feel like it's sort of I've sort of exercised that
in my history, and I'm just saying.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
That this is it.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Like I'm I I'm not interested in getting married or
anything like that, and neither not just my partner, we
don't believe in that.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, it sounds like you kind of got it out
of your system for now.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, it's that, I guess that's the thing. See, that's
I always recommend that people have affairs because so my
relationship that I'm in now actually began as an affair,
and it was I mean, thank God, and it was
you know, it's it was accidental. I was someone that
I really cared about. But then this other human being
(11:04):
came in. The quickening happened and I felt I tried
to not pursue it, actually, but it was unstoppable. It
was an unstoppable force. In fact, the night that I
met her, she swapped clothes and nothing happened this point.
We just swapped clothes and I was wearing her dress,
(11:26):
she was wearing my clothes, and she did it an impersonation.
She known me for an hour. She did an impersonation
of me to my friends with my friend's party, and
she did an impersonation of me, and it was so
accurate and mean. I couldn't believe that she couldn't believe
how well she got me down. She had me absolutely nailed.
So how can you not pursue that?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So she saw you, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That is exactly what I'm saying. And I believe that
I reciprocated that site And as is the case with
most profound relations, we had an extraordinary moment and I
believe that we felt we couldn't pretend that that wasn't
that that didn't exist. So it was a long couple
(12:10):
of months. What the fucking affair? Oh my god, like
so much fun because it's all it.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Sounds wrong and hurting people and you shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, it's exciting, it's forbidden.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Of course it is, and everybody should do it. Everybody
should do it, and it was. You know, it's one
of those things where you go, may or may not
work out, but you should have that experience because you
don't want to be you don't want to be struck
down with an illness, lying in the bed having had
these opportunities and not be able to ruminate on them
when you're fucking on the way out. You know, I
(12:44):
think it's really important to experience the edges.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Experience the edges. Okay, we're going to take a quick
break and when we come back, we'll have Sheryl Chirstianbaum
to talk more about kissing and try and understand what
is happening to our bodies when we kiss someone we like.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Welcome Back, episode four gives us croatia, and when Frances
and Nick reconnect physically at the end of the episode,
that kiss feels different.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
That fear of loss just makes it so much more powerful.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
The camera swirls around them and it's like you can
feel that energy, that tension and then the release of
that tension, and it feels so good.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
It so does.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So let's talk more about kissing. Nom have you ever
kissed someone and you were like, ooh, nope, not for me,
this is not right. Yes, yes, yes I have. Thank
you for reminding me.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
There's lots of reasons why a first kiss, especially might
not feel so good. I like to say it's nature's
ultimate litmus test.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Here's science writer Cheryl Kershenbaum.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
So a kiss can either bring us closer together, signifying
you know, maybe this is a great match chemically, maybe
this is a great match from mother Nature's perspective that
you know this parish you would go off and have
really healthy kids, or maybe things don't feel so good.
And there's probably a lot of reasons stress and kissing
don't mix obviously, so like if it's the wrong situation,
(14:26):
the wrong environment, even a really great match might not
feel so good. But there are other things that we're
not consciously thinking about that are pushing us or pulling
us towards something or someone there's a segment in our DNA,
in our genetic code called the major histo compatibility complex,
and it's a set of genes that codes for our
immune systems. So research is actually demonstrated that people with
(14:48):
very distinct, so very different sets of this code for
our immunity, they tend to be attracted to this sense
of the other person women in particular, So women like
the sense of men with a different genetic code for
their immune systems. In short, it's also worth pointing out
that women on the birth control of PELL seem to
(15:09):
have the opposite preference, So that might suggest that we're
tricking our bodies hormonally in ways that we may or
may not realize. It's just some really interesting stuff in
the fields of you know, how our noses work and
how our genes work, and why all of these different
clues tell us whether or not someone might be well
suited for a longer relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
How does a kiss plain in all of that, Because
sometimes we kiss someone and unexpectedly it's a great kiss
and we didn't expect.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
It to be so great.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
So when we're right up close kissing someone, we're absolutely
in their personal space and they're in our personal space,
and we're closer than we would normally be in any
kind of casual encounter. So what that is is that's
a really reliable chance to get their stent and to
take signals from that in our bodies and brains, and
you know how we feel consciously and how our bodies
(15:59):
are responding to them with whether or not we want
to stick around and be with them. And as I
said earlier, you know these are cues that are really
important to women. So women are the ones who put
a lot more emphasis on how a person smells, what
taste is like, you know, whether or not they're enjoying
the kiss to go forward, what the kiss means in
terms of like long term relationship potential. And this probably
(16:21):
has to do with from a reproductive standpoint, women have
far fewer opportunities to pair off and find someone to
reproduce with. And I know that sounds like super biological
and not romantic at all, but that is driving a
lot of our decisions. So as women, we have a
limited number of years, a few days a month where
we might get pregnant, and we've got to figure out
(16:42):
who the best person to get half that genetic material
that's going to be part of our offspring from is
and a kiss is one of the best opportunities to
do so.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
And so with that like kind of heteronormative biological that's
a good point point of view about I'm curious about
like where the research and that goes into the non
heterosexual relationships, intimacy, that sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
I am so glad you asked that question, and I
should have prefaced the other part by saying, yeah. So, Unfortunately,
much of the research to date has been on heteronormative relationships,
so male women pairs. However, I think that that's starting
to change. When I was working on the book, I
actually got to get involved with a neuroscientist at New
York University and we wanted to see how the brain
(17:32):
changed when kissing was involved.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
The machine they were using for that study is called
a magneto encygilography machine Magneto and Cephalography Magneto and psycho MEG,
and it measures the magnetic fields produced by your brain's
electrical currents. And it's built for one person.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
We couldn't put like two heads into it brain scanning
machine and tell them to make out and see if
that would work, because two people weren't going to fit.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But they also know that we humans have this thing
in our brains where we can watch things happen to
someone else and feel them in our own bodies mirror neurons,
probable mirror neurons.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
I mean, it might be one of the reasons pornography
is so popular, but it is definitely one of the
reasons why we see sometimes we see people kissing films
and we just feel like, oh, it's so sweet, it's
so romantic, Like it's these probable mirror neurons firing in
our brains making us feel something similar. So long story short,
we set up an experiment where we put men and
women in this machine and we show them different kinds
(18:26):
of images of kissing, and we wanted to see what
their brains would do. And it was really important to
me and the other people involved in the study to
include to include homosexual, heterosexual, non binary folks in the experiment.
And we did see some differences in people's reactions to kissing.
But then we reposed with this really big problem with
how do we talk about different brain responses to kissing
(18:49):
and sexuality in a way that won't be sensationalized by
the media To somehow say that gain straight kissing is
different because we had same sex pairs, we had sex pairs,
be a parent, in child pairs, grandpar we had all
different things.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
And what they found was there was a stronger brain
change when they showed the people in the machines images
of same sex kissing.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
And what we think is going on is that there's
a novelty effect to how our brains respond. And in
popular culture, we're a lot more use to on screen
in our literature, on billboards seeing male female pairs making out.
We think it was that kind of novelty phenomenon that
accounted for this difference we saw. But then I thought,
oh my goodness, someone is going to take this completely
(19:32):
out of context and draw this absolutely bogus conclusion that
these are somehow different. I'm sharing this story just to say,
you know, there's so much we still don't know about kissing,
and there's so many people that haven't been traditionally included
in scientific research. Broadly, much of the research in so
many areas of behavior has primarily been done on like
(19:52):
white heterosexual men, and so I think that that's starting
to change, especially in the last ten fifteen years. But
there's a lot we still have to learn so.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Much to learn and beyond this biological aspect of kissing
and what it does to our bodies, there's a lot
to take into account culturally.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
What's familiar and normal to us that we grow up
with in our own families very much plays a role
into what kind of neural pathways or laid down early
on to make us feel associated, appropriateness of you know,
kissing a partner, what that looks like. So even in
different parts of the country, you know, what's okay somewhere
kind of is looked at as taboo somewhere else, And
(20:28):
of course that plays a role into things like, oh,
we should be kissing right, or if we're going to
have an affair outside of our own relationship, how we
might feel about that. Is that exciting? Does that cause
us guilt? So all of these different kind of feelings
can get involved, and what that experience.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Is if you're really excited about an affair, just like
you'd be in a brand new relationship, can't stop thinking
about them, rebeading decks, obsessing, stocking their Instagram, building a
shrine with their belly button, lnd disgusting.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
That is that serotonin often you know associated with obsessive
compulsive disorder, but it's also involved in those exciting feelings
of kissing. And I think if it's an affair, if
it's a brand new relationship, if it's like sexually exciting,
that's going to be very involved in the experience the
dopamine as well. But then, of course, if you've grown
up with this taboo of any kind of intimacy outside
(21:17):
of formal marriage, which we see in certain parts of
the world more than others, but even in parts of
the US as well, there's going to be a potential
stigma associated with it. It might never feel that great
because the sensations are tied to all of these other
complex emotions that you've grown up with, or the religious
people in your life might have informed you you know,
isn't right. So the thing about kissing is, while it
(21:39):
is this I think a universal language in our lives,
like it's a way to really show someone how you feel,
and our earliest associations with love and intimacy and security,
often as newborns, involves lips stimulation. The lips are so
packed with sensitive nerve endings. They are just our most
exposed orrogenist zone in many ways, and you know, the
(22:01):
brain's response to lip stimulation is huge compared to like
the small amount of our body that it involves, so's
it's quite extraordinary, and we're engaging all our senses when
we do it. But ultimately the experience is really unique
to each of us based on the environment where we
grew up, and that based on the person that we're with.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
You know what this makes me think of? What remember?
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Back in episode two, Laff told us about his first
kiss with his lover at the time, Aria in the
Porte Coche when the sixty limbo, when they just they
bought their faces really close together and just looked at
each other for a really really long time. I mean,
it's not even a kiss, but it's just so romantic
and it's Yeah, I think that's the most kiss like
(22:49):
non kiss I've ever heard of.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
And it's funny. It's kind of like the exact opposite
of that is kissing in old Hollywood movies where the
guy and the girl get together and they just smush
their faces together. It's not even like I don't even
know if their mouths are touching, they're just.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Mouth they're definitely touching. It's kind of like when kids.
You know, when you do like the kissing symbol with
your finger and it's called.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
It looks exactly it looks exactly like that, and it's
it's so weird, and I can't imagine it being romantic
at all, even though it kind of is romantic in
some movies, I meaning Casa Blanket is. But it's the music,
it's the mood, it's the atmosphere. That's the exact movie
that was playing in my mind as I was saying
it too. I don't understand how we got from portraying
(23:35):
kisses like this to just feeling so romantic to staring
at each other in real life. Like, what does Cheryl
have to say about the history of kissing? Okay, well,
she goes back even farther than Casablanca. She says that
the first written evidence of kissing dates back about thirty
five hundred years to something called the Vedic Sanskrit scriptures.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And there's no word for kissing, but there are things
like nibbling at each other's lips or licking at each
other's lips, or and there's something about touching the navel
of the world, which you know, transcribers think this has
to do with some kind of earlier kiss. And you
also have to keep in mind it wasn't until recently
that human beings were brushing our teeth and using mouthflash
quite as often, so the kissing experience probably would have
(24:19):
been a little different.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And kissing like behavior is present in the animal kingdom too,
even though we can't really make any value judgments on
an animal's motivation.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
It's called anthropomorphizing, so you're like seeing what you think
in animal feels. But if you look at a whole
bunch of other species bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, many of them
are connecting in similar ways, and not just because they
are intimate with another partner.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And another interesting mouth connection is pre chewing food like
a mama bird. I've done it before, have you for
a baby or for a lover? A little bit of both.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's weird.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
I know that doesn't sound romantic, But before we had
baby food, humans were also feeding each other, feeding their newborns,
feeding the elderly, the sick by preaching food and passing
it to them. So these very early experiences as newborns
are built into how we experience things later on. So
when we started our lives and we connected with surging
(25:14):
oxytocin and changing dopamine and all of these things associated
with those warm, secure, comfortable feelings. When we want to
express that we really care about someone ten twenty thirty
years later, we think, oh, I use my mouth, I kissed,
and that bolsters the same the same neuro transmitters and
hormones in our bodies that those very early experiences did.
(25:35):
So I think it's probably been occurring in some form
for as long as people have been around.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
In our next episode, we ask the question whether or
not it is possible to be in love with more
than one person at the same time.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Great question.
Speaker 4 (26:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
It's sat a show, I don't know, emmy all. This
show is hosted and produced by me, Maggie Bowles, and
me Noah Gadweiser. It's written and edited by me, with
assistant editing by Noah. Our supervising producer is Ryan Tillotson,
with help from Tyler Nielsen, Frank Driscoll, Nick Bailey and
(26:37):
the entire Straw Hut team. Theme music is by Maggie
Glass and Square Fish and Big thanks to Ariyabashi, Lauren Thorpe,
Exavior Salas, and the Hulu team. Mag smiles.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Shi, a child
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com