February 21, 2025 • 25 mins
Abbie and Adrian discuss the backlash against Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB) programs amidst changing federal policies and ongoing cultural debates. They explore the tension between maintaining an inclusive workplace and the pushback against such initiatives, emphasizing the importance of open dialogue, factual evidence, and continuous learning.
The conversation touches on "merit," the value of diverse voices, and the responsibility of businesses to foster inclusive environments and equitable practices. This episode offers a nuanced exploration of the challenges and opportunities in working together to create a better world.
Read the transcript and notes for this episode on our website.
Key Takeaways
- Diversity is a fact of nature and should be mirrored within workplace environments to promote inclusivity and equity.
- Policy shifts have impacted the traditional DEI landscape, raising questions about meritocracy and representation.
- Systemic biases are pervasive, and acknowledging personal biases is essential for fostering more inclusive spaces.
- Real progress requires open, honest, and sometimes tough conversations about race, equity, and inclusion in society.
- Leaders of companies and non-profit organizations should authentically communicate their stance on DEI issues, reflecting these values in their operations and cultures.
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Credits
Copper State of Mind, hosted by Abbie Fink and Dr. Adrian McIntyre, is a project of HMA Public Relations, a full-service public relations and marketing communications firm in Phoenix.
The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a B2B communications firm, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Diversity, equity, inclusion,belonging. We all know that these
are. Oh, wait, are we, Are weallowed to say those words anymore?
I'm not sure we're allowed touse these words. Are these dirty
words? Abbie, what's on your mind?
Well, in my mind, they are notdirty words. The concept of diversity,
equity, inclusion, belonging,finding value in our differences
(00:28):
is, in my view, an extremelyimportant part of building a culture
within your organization thatis supportive of everyone. And it
is, you know, DEI --diversity, equity, inclusion -- has
certainly been top of mindrecently and the impact of the changing
(00:53):
policies around it. I'mbothered by it. I'm challenged by
it because I think thisconcept has been around for a long
time. It has evolved over timeas we've gotten smarter, maybe more
accepting of differences orwhat the differences mean and really
(01:13):
should be recognizing thebenefits to our organization when
we, you know, when we embracethe concept of what I believe DEI
really means in the larger context.
So to back up here, we're allclear that in the present moment,
programs to support diversity,equity, inclusion, belonging, whatever
(01:35):
they've been called, are beingpulled back voluntarily. That's been
going on for a few months. Thefederal government has issued new
guidance essentiallyeliminating positions and even the
use of these words. TheNational Science Foundation is now
prevented from reviewinggrants that contain a list of banned
(01:57):
words, including words like"cultural" and "women." It's something
that a few years ago we mighthave said, "oh, it's a slippery slope..."
Last year, the Society forHuman Resource Management (SHRM)
officially stated -- the CEO,anyway, stated -- that they were
going to remove the E fromDEI. It was no longer tobeaboutequity.There'ssomedeep,deepproblems
(02:20):
with that.But with that. Butwe have ended up in a really strange
place. We're communicators.Words have meanings, ideas have ourvocabularyisnotsomething
thatshouldbetakenlightly. isnot something that should be taken
lightly. Abbie, you adviseclients all the time. Th
(02:43):
Yeah.
What are you hearing ingeneral, whether from your clients
or the broader landscape aboutthese changes?
Well, you know, in one of ourfirst episodes back on Copper State
of Mind, I talked about thecommunication I had internally with
our team about, you know, whatwe needed to be prepared for. There
were going to be things thatwere going to be coming down the
pike, which we didn't know atthe time what those might be, but
(03:06):
the impact that they mighthave on our business, certainly on,
you know, in our own personalbeliefs, the beliefs of our clients,
and how we would come to aplace where we would figure out how
to evolve from this. Well,this is certainly one of those topics
that a couple months ago Ididn't know what the nswerwas,nowhereitis.So
is. owhatwe're,we. you know,we regularly bring up the conversations
(03:32):
around what is happening on amighthavehereinourlocalcommunities,regardlessofwhatthetopicis.Right.Wetalkabout,youknow, howdoyou
topic is. We talk about, youknow, how do you make your voice
heard in a topic that's largerthan yourself? And so this is, "Okay,
(03:55):
what are we doing about theidea of DEI?" And again, our agency
in our history has longsupported the concepts of diversity,
equity, inclusion. In our workin the disability community and our
work with tribal affairs, weand others, we have talked about
(04:19):
equal access and inclusion andsuch as just a common practice and
the importance of, you know,being open and available to all.
And I, you know, our clientswho are across a variety of different
industries. Some are basedhere in the local market, some are
(04:46):
national, some have parentcompanies. This is a topic now, and
a lot is going into, you know,where do we stand on our internal
beliefs about inclusiveworkplaces? How does that impact
theourorganizationsandultimatelythe,youknow,thecustomersorthe,you customers
or the, you know, the clientsthat take advantage of the work that
(05:13):
we're providing. And to behonest with you, we don't have straightforward
answers right now. Like, we'renot, you there'snocrystal ballthatwecanlook
intoandsay,here'sthemagicthatwe needinordertoanswerthisquestion.Butwhatwe
(05:42):
know intuitivelyand whatwe'vebeenableto,you know,lookbackhistoricallyisthisconcept
of,youknow,aninclusiveworkplaceandaplacewhere yourteam
members,yourstaff,yourcolleaguesfeelheardandseen,haveaplaceto beproductive.Andthattheircontributionsarevaluedextendsto
(06:10):
the,youknow,thetrustintheorganizationthattheyworkwiththat theyare
genuineintheirrelationships.Andthisisthekindof placewhereIwanttogivemy110%everyday.Andwhetherornotwechangethenamesthatwe'recallingthesethingsorpoliciesarebeing,you
(06:40):
know,handeddown.It'shardtoargue thattheimportanceofhavinganinclusiveworkplace
isn'tworthfightingforthatoption.AndIthinkthat,youknow,thisismaybeAbbymorepersonallythanAbby,as,youknow,anadvisorandacounselorit'simportanttohavethediscussion.i eie,,w?
W
(07:06):
I think we -- I, anyway needto address the fundamental hypocrisy
of the way this issue is beingdebated. And let me just say I believe
all issues are debatable, thatthere multiplepointsofviewon prettymuchanything,
andthatinahealthy,functioningsocietyyoucanhavethose toughconversations
wherepeoplecanexpresstheirpointsofviewandbe heard.SoasmuchasIdon'tpersonallyagree
(07:30):
withthe decision,Ithinkwehavetostartatleast.Andthisis.I mean,
we have to start at least ...I Thecorepremiseofthatisthis ideathatyoutrytounderstand
thingsnotonyourterms,but onthetermsofthepeopleyou're engagingwith.This
isbeingpresentedassomehowbeingaboutmerit. TheideaintheantiDEIstatements
(07:53):
This is bengpresentedas assomehow being about merit. The idea
in the anti-DEI statements isthat whoaregettingpreferentialtreatment
overotherqualifiedcandidates.Thesubtexthere,let'sbeclear,isthatthequalifiedcandidateswhoarenotgettingachancearewhiteandthatthepeoplewhoarebeingappointedpreferentiallybasedsolelyonsomeotherformofidentityarenonwhite.That'swhatthisisallabout.Ifwe'renot talkingaboutthat,we'replaying
(08:30):
who are being appointed"preferentially" based solely on
some other form of identityare non-white. That's what this is
all about.fwe'renottalkingaboutthat, we're
playingintooneside ofapolemical argument, argument, okay?
And the polemical argument is,"well, look, these policies are unfair
(08:50):
because they pass overqualified people in favor of unqu"alifiedpeople.Let'sfor
set aside for a second thefact that the inherent belief that
someone is unqualified becausethey awomanorwhatever,isthe a woman,
or wearetryingtooverturnwiththese policiesandprocedures.
(09:12):
ButI digress.Ifthiswerereallyaconversationaboutmerit, firstthingisprivatecompanieswouldbeabletoresolvethisontheir
ownbecausethefederalgovernmentshouldnotbetellingaprivate entityhowtheyshouldorshouldnothire
people.Right? Right.ThegovernmenthasestablishedpoliciesthroughtheEqualOpportunityactand The
(09:38):
government has establishedpolicies through the Equal Opportunity
Actfromgettingequalopportunities.So theperverse
a history of systemic racismthat has prevented people from getting
equal opport","
Well, as, as most things thatcome, you know, that are politically
(10:01):
directed, they have a lot ofnuance around them. And, you know,
that's conversation for adifferent time. But, you know, ourpointis
is well made in that that the... We all want the opportunity to
(10:22):
have our voice under, berespected, you know, understood that
we are bringing value to theworkplace. That my experiences, my
knowledge, my expertise isvalued because I have it, not because
I represent a particular boxon a list that you want to check
(10:46):
off. And I think regardless ofwhere we're coming in that discussion,
anyone representing, to justbe generalized and say "a marginalized
group," anyone that wouldidentify within a marginalized group,
I believe, would say, "don'thire me experiencesthatIbringtothetable.I
(11:09):
me because this is what Ibring to the table. The knowledge,
the expertise, the experiencesthat I bring to the table. I have
additional points of view anda nuance to what I bring to the table
(11:33):
because I also happen to bethis, this, and this. But my qualifications
are my education, my workexperienc"e,whatever that might be."
I was following a conversationmedianottoolong ago,and itwas,youknow,sheisina,youknow,isinagroupofI.Shewouldidentifyinacertainway.Shethoughtitwasimportantthatthatbevisible.Andpeopleweresaying,oh,no,don'tdothat.Youwon'tgetajobifyoudothat.Andthenotherpeoplewerebeing,beproudofwhoyouare.Dothat.Youknow,
(12:16):
was, you know, she is in agroup of ... she would identify in
a certain way. She thought itwas important that that be visible.
And people were saying, oh,no, don't do eventalkingaboutthatatall?Butbecauseit,it,sheisextremelyqualifiedtodowhateverpositionit
(12:39):
who you are. Do that. Youknow, of course do that. And then
the whole idea was, well, agood employer is going to find her
on LinkedIn or, you know,anything and recognize some of those
kinds of things. And I steppedback from that for a moment. I'm
(13:01):
like, whyevenatalkingaboutthatatall?But at
all? Because she is extremelyqualified to do isshechoosestoapplyfor.
And thoseother apply for. Andthose other elements are what she
brings from an experienceperspective and again, the nuance
(13:24):
of her own lived experiences,which should be valued. But you know,
it, it, there's just over theyears there's been, you know, we
look about it all the time. Imean, I'll look at a resume and see
(13:46):
someone who's got 30 or 35years experience. And although I
like to think I'm open minded,I'm like, you know, do I want an
older person in my workplace?Well, they bring maturity, they bring
(14:06):
experience. But they also canexpect other things. So there's so
much about this idea thatwe've put issues on top of things
that may not needed to haveissues put upon them. And as you
(14:27):
said, there are federalmandates and guidance about equal
opportunity and the th..a, t
I really appreciate what yousaid there a minute ago, acknowledging
that your own bias creeps intomoments like this. This is the conversation
I think we're not having. Thisis a country, probably a world, probably
(14:48):
a species -- let's justinclude all humans, why not? We're
not very good at telling thetruth to ourselves about ourselves.
And certainly, let's bring itback to the United States. This is
a country that has shownitself to be unwilling to have hard
conversations at a nationalscale about the very history of this
(15:11):
country, of this imperfectunion. People have been resisting
for decades ... by the way,this is not something that started,
in the last 10 years. The socalled culture wars, even earlier,
there have been fierce debatesabout the degree to which we were
willing to be honest about thehistorical events, processes that
(15:34):
led us to the point we aretoday. hisisacountrythat that was
founded on racism and whitesupremacy. It was literally built
through chattel slavery.Pretending something otherwise because
it benefits you is theultimate "snowflake" point of honestaboutwhere
we'reat.Andlet'snotdeny50years ofsocialscience And let's not
(15:56):
deny 50 years of socialscience research on these topics
either. I mean,outathousandresumes. fact at this
point. Harvard researchersends out a thousand resumes. I'm
paraphrasing the study. Halfof them, the person's name is Doug.
The other half is namedDeShawn. How many times does the
(16:16):
phone ring? 65, 70% for theDoug, 0% for DeShawn, right? And
those aren't the names, andthat wasn't the actual statistics.
But that's the idea. This hasbeen studied inside and out. Our
prejudices are real. We allhave them. We're human, okay? So
nobody's pointing a finger andsaying, ""oh,you're a bad, icky racist."
(16:40):
Unless are,inwhich which casewe should be doing that. But all
inherentbiases,sowhywouldwehavepolicies would we have policies
in place to try toeversethat?Becausewewant abetterworld,
that's that's why. Becausediversity -- let me just add to my
(17:05):
little rant here. Diversity isa fact, okay? Diversity is a fact
in nature. Diversity is a factin humanity. So let's just start
there, right? There is alreadydiversity. It exists. It is the nature
of our being human. We comefrom different places, we think different
(17:25):
ways, we have differentgenetic expressions, you know, all
the things. Okay, fine.onowwhatdowedo in do in the workplace?
Well, if diversity is athebuilding, maybeweshould createan
environmentwhere theinsideofthebuildingreflects the outsideofthebuilding.
(17:46):
Inother words, it's.Andthisisthe words, it's ... ndthisis is
the same thing withuniversities. I have spent years
in academia, and the issue waselite universities were struggling
with the fact that the studentbody did not represent the broader
(18:10):
community in which theuniversity was located. It was largely
white, largely middle or uppermiddle class. So there was a real
effort to try to provideaccess to universities. And not just
access, but let'snotjustgetLet's not just get, quote unquote
(18:31):
non-traditional students,meaning normal folks, everyone, let's
not just get them into auniversity degree program. Let's
provide them resources theyneed to succeed and actually graduate.
So access and retentionmaketheargumentthatitwas.Andagain,asIsay,weshouldhaveall thosedebates,butweneed
(18:56):
Is that somehow biased againstthe historically dominant classes?
Well, some people wanted tomake the argument that it was. And
again, as I say, we shouldhave all those debates, but we need
to have them with facts andwith evidence, not just with feelings.
(19:18):
So anyway, that's diversity.It's a fact. Inclusion, what's a,wd
.B.T it.It ,--
And in that discussion, wehave to allow ourselves to understand
that our views and opinionsevolve over time. And what we knew
and what we thought and whatwe believed at one point in our lives
(19:41):
has evolved. And maybe it'sevolved in a more forward thinking
way. And it may be that it'sevolved and it's gone in a, in a
less forward thinking way. Butbaked into this idea is also that
fact, right? That what we knownow, what we believe to be right
now, and how we approachthings is very different than what
(20:01):
we might have done five yearsago, 10 years ago, 100 years ago.
And the fact that we have beenopen to the idea that change is okay,
that we can acknowledge thatwe might not have been, this perfect
process is partly what makeswhat we do that much more important.
(20:23):
The, the, you know, we'vebeen, we've been having conversations
on, you know, on this podcastand we, you know, we had it during
COVID and we talked about alot of these things then, right? About
access to information and whatwas coming out and how we were doing
it and the workplace changesand all the, all sorts of things
that were happening. And myviewpoints, you know, from then to
(20:45):
now, have even changed aboutwhat inclusivity means and how do
we do that and how do wemanage, you know, an equitable workplace,
all of it. And that is just,to me, the nature of these Discussions.
And this topic is the ideathat we have to be open and flexible
and understanding andacknowledge where we are doing well
(21:09):
and where we need to improveand quite honestly, where we really
might have screwed it up. Andin that discussion, we learn and
we get better and we moveforward. And you know, it's. The
difficult thing for me in allof this is that the, you know, the,
the, the responsibility needsto be on all of us and whatever definition
(21:34):
we put on our own individualbackgrounds and the, the bias, conscious
or unconscious that we bringinto the discussion, we are responsible
for, for the things that we doand the things that we say and the
way that we respond and theway that we act on particular conversations.
And they're not easy and we'renot always going to have an agreement.
(21:57):
And that in itself is also theimportance of diversity, is that
we don't have to agree, but wecan agree that the conversation is
important to have. And wherewe go with this, I'm not sure. I
don't know what's going to bethe fallout from it. I don't know
how we implement and makechanges. I don't know what ultimately
(22:18):
it means for an individualthat is identified in one of these
marginalized groups for what,their future employment opportunities.
But I gotta tell you that mypersonal belief and what I hope is
something that we can standfirmly in front of and alongside
(22:42):
of with our team and withthose that we work with and the colleagues
that we support, is that wehave to keep having the conversation.
We have to keep recognizingthat whatever words we use to describe
it, it needs to be anauthentic approach to creating a
equal and diverse workplace.And that the, you know, the clients
(23:08):
and our audiences and ourtarget markets and. Pick a word.
But the people that we want toknow about us, the people that we
are, you know, putting ourgoods and services in front of, are
a diverse population and, anddemand that the people they do business
with, you know, support thatconcept and the concepts that are
important to them. And as a,as a business owner, as a business
(23:32):
leader, it will be up to youto determine, you know, how that's
going to play out. And, youknow, as we discussed in our topic
a couple weeks ago on the, theconcept of trust and what that means
and, and, you know, grievanceswith our institutions, you're going
to have to be bold in yourattempts to decide if this is something
(23:57):
that is worth it for yourorganization and whatever that looks
like on the other side. Beconfident in your decisions and communicate
that appropriately and, youknow, internally and externally and
that authentic voice, bothwhat you as an organization stand
for and your acceptance ofthose voices within your organization,
(24:17):
to me, regardless of what wecall it, is what creates an inclusive
and equitable diverse workplace.
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Diversity, equity, inclusion,belonging. We all know that these
are. Oh, wait, are we, Are weallowed to say those words anymore?
I'm not sure we're allowed touse these words. Are these dirty
words? Abbie, what's on your mind?
Well, in my mind, they are notdirty words. The concept of diversity,
equity, inclusion, belonging,finding value in our differences
(00:28):
is, in my view, an extremelyimportant part of building a culture
within your organization thatis supportive of everyone. And it
is, you know, DEI --diversity, equity, inclusion -- has
certainly been top of mindrecently and the impact of the changing
(00:53):
policies around it. I'mbothered by it. I'm challenged by
it because I think thisconcept has been around for a long
time. It has evolved over timeas we've gotten smarter, maybe more
accepting of differences orwhat the differences mean and really
(01:13):
should be recognizing thebenefits to our organization when
we, you know, when we embracethe concept of what I believe DEI
really means in the larger context.
So to back up here, we're allclear that in the present moment,
programs to support diversity,equity, inclusion, belonging, whatever
(01:35):
they've been called, are beingpulled back voluntarily. That's been
going on for a few months. Thefederal government has issued new
guidance essentiallyeliminating positions and even the
use of these words. TheNational Science Foundation is now
prevented from reviewinggrants that contain a list of banned
(01:57):
words, including words like"cultural" and "women." It's something
that a few years ago we mighthave said, "oh, it's a slippery slope..."
Last year, the Society forHuman Resource Management (SHRM)
officially stated -- the CEO,anyway, stated -- that they were
going to remove the E fromDEI. It was no longer tobeaboutequity.There'ssomedeep,deepproblems
(02:20):
with that.But with that. Butwe have ended up in a really strange
place. We're communicators.Words have meanings, ideas have ourvocabularyisnotsomething
thatshouldbetakenlightly. isnot something that should be taken
lightly. Abbie, you adviseclients all the time. Th
(02:43):
Yeah.
What are you hearing ingeneral, whether from your clients
or the broader landscape aboutthese changes?
Well, you know, in one of ourfirst episodes back on Copper State
of Mind, I talked about thecommunication I had internally with
our team about, you know, whatwe needed to be prepared for. There
were going to be things thatwere going to be coming down the
pike, which we didn't know atthe time what those might be, but
(03:06):
the impact that they mighthave on our business, certainly on,
you know, in our own personalbeliefs, the beliefs of our clients,
and how we would come to aplace where we would figure out how
to evolve from this. Well,this is certainly one of those topics
that a couple months ago Ididn't know what the nswerwas,nowhereitis.So
is. owhatwe're,we. you know,we regularly bring up the conversations
(03:32):
around what is happening on amighthavehereinourlocalcommunities,regardlessofwhatthetopicis.Right.Wetalkabout,youknow, howdoyou
topic is. We talk about, youknow, how do you make your voice
heard in a topic that's largerthan yourself? And so this is, "Okay,
(03:55):
what are we doing about theidea of DEI?" And again, our agency
in our history has longsupported the concepts of diversity,
equity, inclusion. In our workin the disability community and our
work with tribal affairs, weand others, we have talked about
(04:19):
equal access and inclusion andsuch as just a common practice and
the importance of, you know,being open and available to all.
And I, you know, our clientswho are across a variety of different
industries. Some are basedhere in the local market, some are
(04:46):
national, some have parentcompanies. This is a topic now, and
a lot is going into, you know,where do we stand on our internal
beliefs about inclusiveworkplaces? How does that impact
theourorganizationsandultimatelythe,youknow,thecustomersorthe,you customers
or the, you know, the clientsthat take advantage of the work that
(05:13):
we're providing. And to behonest with you, we don't have straightforward
answers right now. Like, we'renot, you there'snocrystal ballthatwecanlook
intoandsay,here'sthemagicthatwe needinordertoanswerthisquestion.Butwhatwe
(05:42):
know intuitivelyand whatwe'vebeenableto,you know,lookbackhistoricallyisthisconcept
of,youknow,aninclusiveworkplaceandaplacewhere yourteam
members,yourstaff,yourcolleaguesfeelheardandseen,haveaplaceto beproductive.Andthattheircontributionsarevaluedextendsto
(06:10):
the,youknow,thetrustintheorganizationthattheyworkwiththat theyare
genuineintheirrelationships.Andthisisthekindof placewhereIwanttogivemy110%everyday.Andwhetherornotwechangethenamesthatwe'recallingthesethingsorpoliciesarebeing,you
(06:40):
know,handeddown.It'shardtoargue thattheimportanceofhavinganinclusiveworkplace
isn'tworthfightingforthatoption.AndIthinkthat,youknow,thisismaybeAbbymorepersonallythanAbby,as,youknow,anadvisorandacounselorit'simportanttohavethediscussion.i eie,,w?
W
(07:06):
I think we -- I, anyway needto address the fundamental hypocrisy
of the way this issue is beingdebated. And let me just say I believe
all issues are debatable, thatthere multiplepointsofviewon prettymuchanything,
andthatinahealthy,functioningsocietyyoucanhavethose toughconversations
wherepeoplecanexpresstheirpointsofviewandbe heard.SoasmuchasIdon'tpersonallyagree
(07:30):
withthe decision,Ithinkwehavetostartatleast.Andthisis.I mean,
we have to start at least ...I Thecorepremiseofthatisthis ideathatyoutrytounderstand
thingsnotonyourterms,but onthetermsofthepeopleyou're engagingwith.This
isbeingpresentedassomehowbeingaboutmerit. TheideaintheantiDEIstatements
(07:53):
This is bengpresentedas assomehow being about merit. The idea
in the anti-DEI statements isthat whoaregettingpreferentialtreatment
overotherqualifiedcandidates.Thesubtexthere,let'sbeclear,isthatthequalifiedcandidateswhoarenotgettingachancearewhiteandthatthepeoplewhoarebeingappointedpreferentiallybasedsolelyonsomeotherformofidentityarenonwhite.That'swhatthisisallabout.Ifwe'renot talkingaboutthat,we'replaying
(08:30):
who are being appointed"preferentially" based solely on
some other form of identityare non-white. That's what this is
all about.fwe'renottalkingaboutthat, we're
playingintooneside ofapolemical argument, argument, okay?
And the polemical argument is,"well, look, these policies are unfair
(08:50):
because they pass overqualified people in favor of unqu"alifiedpeople.Let'sfor
set aside for a second thefact that the inherent belief that
someone is unqualified becausethey awomanorwhatever,isthe a woman,
or wearetryingtooverturnwiththese policiesandprocedures.
(09:12):
ButI digress.Ifthiswerereallyaconversationaboutmerit, firstthingisprivatecompanieswouldbeabletoresolvethisontheir
ownbecausethefederalgovernmentshouldnotbetellingaprivate entityhowtheyshouldorshouldnothire
people.Right? Right.ThegovernmenthasestablishedpoliciesthroughtheEqualOpportunityactand The
(09:38):
government has establishedpolicies through the Equal Opportunity
Actfromgettingequalopportunities.So theperverse
a history of systemic racismthat has prevented people from getting
equal opport","
Well, as, as most things thatcome, you know, that are politically
(10:01):
directed, they have a lot ofnuance around them. And, you know,
that's conversation for adifferent time. But, you know, ourpointis
is well made in that that the... We all want the opportunity to
(10:22):
have our voice under, berespected, you know, understood that
we are bringing value to theworkplace. That my experiences, my
knowledge, my expertise isvalued because I have it, not because
I represent a particular boxon a list that you want to check
(10:46):
off. And I think regardless ofwhere we're coming in that discussion,
anyone representing, to justbe generalized and say "a marginalized
group," anyone that wouldidentify within a marginalized group,
I believe, would say, "don'thire me experiencesthatIbringtothetable.I
(11:09):
me because this is what Ibring to the table. The knowledge,
the expertise, the experiencesthat I bring to the table. I have
additional points of view anda nuance to what I bring to the table
(11:33):
because I also happen to bethis, this, and this. But my qualifications
are my education, my workexperienc"e,whatever that might be."
I was following a conversationmedianottoolong ago,and itwas,youknow,sheisina,youknow,isinagroupofI.Shewouldidentifyinacertainway.Shethoughtitwasimportantthatthatbevisible.Andpeopleweresaying,oh,no,don'tdothat.Youwon'tgetajobifyoudothat.Andthenotherpeoplewerebeing,beproudofwhoyouare.Dothat.Youknow,
(12:16):
was, you know, she is in agroup of ... she would identify in
a certain way. She thought itwas important that that be visible.
And people were saying, oh,no, don't do eventalkingaboutthatatall?Butbecauseit,it,sheisextremelyqualifiedtodowhateverpositionit
(12:39):
who you are. Do that. Youknow, of course do that. And then
the whole idea was, well, agood employer is going to find her
on LinkedIn or, you know,anything and recognize some of those
kinds of things. And I steppedback from that for a moment. I'm
(13:01):
like, whyevenatalkingaboutthatatall?But at
all? Because she is extremelyqualified to do isshechoosestoapplyfor.
And thoseother apply for. Andthose other elements are what she
brings from an experienceperspective and again, the nuance
(13:24):
of her own lived experiences,which should be valued. But you know,
it, it, there's just over theyears there's been, you know, we
look about it all the time. Imean, I'll look at a resume and see
(13:46):
someone who's got 30 or 35years experience. And although I
like to think I'm open minded,I'm like, you know, do I want an
older person in my workplace?Well, they bring maturity, they bring
(14:06):
experience. But they also canexpect other things. So there's so
much about this idea thatwe've put issues on top of things
that may not needed to haveissues put upon them. And as you
(14:27):
said, there are federalmandates and guidance about equal
opportunity and the th..a, t
I really appreciate what yousaid there a minute ago, acknowledging
that your own bias creeps intomoments like this. This is the conversation
I think we're not having. Thisis a country, probably a world, probably
(14:48):
a species -- let's justinclude all humans, why not? We're
not very good at telling thetruth to ourselves about ourselves.
And certainly, let's bring itback to the United States. This is
a country that has shownitself to be unwilling to have hard
conversations at a nationalscale about the very history of this
(15:11):
country, of this imperfectunion. People have been resisting
for decades ... by the way,this is not something that started,
in the last 10 years. The socalled culture wars, even earlier,
there have been fierce debatesabout the degree to which we were
willing to be honest about thehistorical events, processes that
(15:34):
led us to the point we aretoday. hisisacountrythat that was
founded on racism and whitesupremacy. It was literally built
through chattel slavery.Pretending something otherwise because
it benefits you is theultimate "snowflake" point of honestaboutwhere
we'reat.Andlet'snotdeny50years ofsocialscience And let's not
(15:56):
deny 50 years of socialscience research on these topics
either. I mean,outathousandresumes. fact at this
point. Harvard researchersends out a thousand resumes. I'm
paraphrasing the study. Halfof them, the person's name is Doug.
The other half is namedDeShawn. How many times does the
(16:16):
phone ring? 65, 70% for theDoug, 0% for DeShawn, right? And
those aren't the names, andthat wasn't the actual statistics.
But that's the idea. This hasbeen studied inside and out. Our
prejudices are real. We allhave them. We're human, okay? So
nobody's pointing a finger andsaying, ""oh,you're a bad, icky racist."
(16:40):
Unless are,inwhich which casewe should be doing that. But all
inherentbiases,sowhywouldwehavepolicies would we have policies
in place to try toeversethat?Becausewewant abetterworld,
that's that's why. Becausediversity -- let me just add to my
(17:05):
little rant here. Diversity isa fact, okay? Diversity is a fact
in nature. Diversity is a factin humanity. So let's just start
there, right? There is alreadydiversity. It exists. It is the nature
of our being human. We comefrom different places, we think different
(17:25):
ways, we have differentgenetic expressions, you know, all
the things. Okay, fine.onowwhatdowedo in do in the workplace?
Well, if diversity is athebuilding, maybeweshould createan
environmentwhere theinsideofthebuildingreflects the outsideofthebuilding.
(17:46):
Inother words, it's.Andthisisthe words, it's ... ndthisis is
the same thing withuniversities. I have spent years
in academia, and the issue waselite universities were struggling
with the fact that the studentbody did not represent the broader
(18:10):
community in which theuniversity was located. It was largely
white, largely middle or uppermiddle class. So there was a real
effort to try to provideaccess to universities. And not just
access, but let'snotjustgetLet's not just get, quote unquote
(18:31):
non-traditional students,meaning normal folks, everyone, let's
not just get them into auniversity degree program. Let's
provide them resources theyneed to succeed and actually graduate.
So access and retentionmaketheargumentthatitwas.Andagain,asIsay,weshouldhaveall thosedebates,butweneed
(18:56):
Is that somehow biased againstthe historically dominant classes?
Well, some people wanted tomake the argument that it was. And
again, as I say, we shouldhave all those debates, but we need
to have them with facts andwith evidence, not just with feelings.
(19:18):
So anyway, that's diversity.It's a fact. Inclusion, what's a,wd
.B.T it.It ,--
And in that discussion, wehave to allow ourselves to understand
that our views and opinionsevolve over time. And what we knew
and what we thought and whatwe believed at one point in our lives
(19:41):
has evolved. And maybe it'sevolved in a more forward thinking
way. And it may be that it'sevolved and it's gone in a, in a
less forward thinking way. Butbaked into this idea is also that
fact, right? That what we knownow, what we believe to be right
now, and how we approachthings is very different than what
(20:01):
we might have done five yearsago, 10 years ago, 100 years ago.
And the fact that we have beenopen to the idea that change is okay,
that we can acknowledge thatwe might not have been, this perfect
process is partly what makeswhat we do that much more important.
(20:23):
The, the, you know, we'vebeen, we've been having conversations
on, you know, on this podcastand we, you know, we had it during
COVID and we talked about alot of these things then, right? About
access to information and whatwas coming out and how we were doing
it and the workplace changesand all the, all sorts of things
that were happening. And myviewpoints, you know, from then to
(20:45):
now, have even changed aboutwhat inclusivity means and how do
we do that and how do wemanage, you know, an equitable workplace,
all of it. And that is just,to me, the nature of these Discussions.
And this topic is the ideathat we have to be open and flexible
and understanding andacknowledge where we are doing well
(21:09):
and where we need to improveand quite honestly, where we really
might have screwed it up. Andin that discussion, we learn and
we get better and we moveforward. And you know, it's. The
difficult thing for me in allof this is that the, you know, the,
the, the responsibility needsto be on all of us and whatever definition
(21:34):
we put on our own individualbackgrounds and the, the bias, conscious
or unconscious that we bringinto the discussion, we are responsible
for, for the things that we doand the things that we say and the
way that we respond and theway that we act on particular conversations.
And they're not easy and we'renot always going to have an agreement.
(21:57):
And that in itself is also theimportance of diversity, is that
we don't have to agree, but wecan agree that the conversation is
important to have. And wherewe go with this, I'm not sure. I
don't know what's going to bethe fallout from it. I don't know
how we implement and makechanges. I don't know what ultimately
(22:18):
it means for an individualthat is identified in one of these
marginalized groups for what,their future employment opportunities.
But I gotta tell you that mypersonal belief and what I hope is
something that we can standfirmly in front of and alongside
(22:42):
of with our team and withthose that we work with and the colleagues
that we support, is that wehave to keep having the conversation.
We have to keep recognizingthat whatever words we use to describe
it, it needs to be anauthentic approach to creating a
equal and diverse workplace.And that the, you know, the clients
(23:08):
and our audiences and ourtarget markets and. Pick a word.
But the people that we want toknow about us, the people that we
are, you know, putting ourgoods and services in front of, are
a diverse population and, anddemand that the people they do business
with, you know, support thatconcept and the concepts that are
important to them. And as a,as a business owner, as a business
(23:32):
leader, it will be up to youto determine, you know, how that's
going to play out. And, youknow, as we discussed in our topic
a couple weeks ago on the, theconcept of trust and what that means
and, and, you know, grievanceswith our institutions, you're going
to have to be bold in yourattempts to decide if this is something
(23:57):
that is worth it for yourorganization and whatever that looks
like on the other side. Beconfident in your decisions and communicate
that appropriately and, youknow, internally and externally and
that authentic voice, bothwhat you as an organization stand
for and your acceptance ofthose voices within your organization,
(24:17):
to me, regardless of what wecall it, is what creates an inclusive
and equitable diverse workplace.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of Copper State of Mind.
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