July 4, 2025 • 25 mins
Ivan, a former cop and current pastor, shares his journey from alcoholism to sobriety and how his relationship with Christ transformed his life. His story powerfully illustrates that addiction's root cause is universal across all struggles—whether substance abuse or other sins—and only Christ can provide true healing.
• Ivan describes himself succinctly as "a cop, a criminal, and now with Christ"
• He details how he manipulated AA meetings and testing requirements while still drinking
• The cycle of addiction involved thousands of empty promises to quit
• Ivan explains why hitting "rock bottom" doesn't lead to repentance—only God's goodness does
• The difference between secondhand Christianity and personal relationship with Christ
• How sanctification is a process rather than a single moment of transformation
• Ivan highlights 2 Corinthians 5:21 as the "exchange" that changed everything
• Six years sober, Ivan credits seeing himself as a new creation in Christ
• The importance of empathy for both cops and criminals in understanding struggle
• Finding freedom by following Jesus rather than relying on willpower
Let's connect!
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Youtube: @dalesutherlandundercoverpastor
Website: theundercoverpastor.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You're back for Cops, criminals and Christ podcast.
I'm here talking to Ivan Now.
Ivan now is a pastor, butbefore he had a bit of a
drinking problem and what I wantto know is how did he stop
drinking and how does it affectall of us with our addictions?
Is there anything we can learn?
Let's talk to Ivan.
We talked some before.
We'll give you, give me a twominute version of your life,
(00:59):
kind of overview where you were,where you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I think even the title of this podcast kind of
sums it up.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was a cop.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was a criminal, yeah, and now I'm with Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I started in law enforcement when I was young.
I got into legal problemsbecause of drinking, because of
alcohol, but then Christredeemed me and now you're doing
what I now I'm a pastor withboost others, uh, with the
church so, so okay.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So I gotta hear more about boost others.
I wanted to talk more about it.
You've mentioned some in thepast, but I want to hear more
about it and, as I'm uh on theboard as well, I just love what
you're doing and and really Ithink it's important for
everybody to know that there'suh, by god's grace, there's lots
of godly people out here wholove the poor and care for the
needy and certainly care for thekind of hurt.
(01:52):
But Ivan is what can't becaptured in a podcast is he's
got what you might say thespecial sauce that makes him 10
times better than the rest of us, just tremendously empathetic
and godly and genuinelyconcerned.
So you know it's funny becauseif I my podcast would sell more
(02:14):
if I had a famous celebrity inmy podcast, you know.
But in God's eyes you're thebig celebrity, believe me.
You know, the values of God'ssystem is just very different
than what the Lord's done withyour life.
It's just proof of yourcelebrity status and it's really
what the Lord has done, notwhat Ivan has done.
Right, which is so different,because I listen sometimes to
(02:35):
podcasts and I listen to things.
I'm so disgusted with themtelling us how great the person
is that they're going to talkabout, when the truth is we're
crediting the wrong person.
Why do you think you turned outthe way you did?
I mean, tell us.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I think what you said was right on.
It's not looking at what we did, because if I did that man I'd
be depressed, but it's lookingat what Jesus did for us.
It's looking at what God didfor us and realizing, like you
said, grace, like what Paul says.
By the grace of God I am what Iam.
(03:10):
You know, god forbid that wewere sum total of the decisions
that we've made and what we'vedone, and so I thank God that he
freed me from that, from thatway of thinking.
You know, my struggle wasalcohol, but the same with every
man, you know there's lust andso many things that come with
(03:35):
that whole lifestyle.
But I think you know I went toAA because I had to.
It was part of the courtprocess or whatever thing, so I
had to.
I scheduled it on nights wherebecause they would test you, you
know, every time you came in tosee if you'd been drinking.
But I knew that it took threedays to get that out of your
(03:59):
system, and so I would scheduleit on nights where it was long
enough that I could still drinkwhile I'm doing this process,
but I would drink enough waterto get it out of my system in
three days and then have mymeeting and I would test clean.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Now you think every addict really has a story like
that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, and I know what it's like because I've been
there, you know, and I know allthe ways to cheat the system and
to lie to your family and to doall these things, to to kind of
, uh, try to make a excuse foryourself or whatever.
Um cause, even when I was goingthrough all of that, I was
still drinking, you know, uh.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So it wasn't that stuff helped me, uh, you know it
was can I ask you how manytimes I want you to think back
and feel the moments?
How many times did you sayenough, and I'm never going to
drink again?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Oh man, thousands of times and I try to do it on my
own strength and I'll neverforget, even one time after
doing that and still drinking, Isaid how am I ever going to
stop?
I liked doing this, you know.
It's not even something that Idon't like, I don't want to do
it, but I just keep doing it andI enjoy it.
(05:10):
I like it, you know.
And just seeing it as a like abottomless pit, like just a
hopeless situation of what?
How can I ever climb out ofthis?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Do you think you ever mental health wise?
You know that's a big wordnowadays which guys like you
would never use.
You would never.
It would have been embarrassinggrowing up for you to say you
were going to seek help orwhatever.
Right, yeah.
So so now, looking back, I mean, do you think you struggled
some with depression during thattime period?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And it is a depressant so.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that all forms ofaddiction, to an extent, are to
try to cope with some of thosethings.
It's like you trying to figureout how can I help my situation
or whatever.
Not to put myself ineverybody's situation, because
everybody's different but Ithink that to an extent, to a
(06:01):
degree whether it be drugs,alcohol, sex, you know any
addiction, I think, is a waythat we try to fix our own
situation or try to help our owncircumstances and we try to
forget about it for a littlewhile or try to feel good for a
(06:23):
little bit, but in reality itjust makes the situation worse.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And your story of going on.
How long did it go on, from thetime you can remember the first
time you said enough to thetime you actually stopped.
Was it like a week, two weeks,six years, 10 years?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It was a couple of years.
It was a couple of years.
I remember just the firstcouple of times.
You know drinking to the pointof not remembering and you know
waking up with the hangover andeverybody goes through that
situation of like man, I'llnever do this again or whatever.
But it was just a couple hourslater I was doing it all over
(07:00):
again doing it all over again.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Isn't it funny that God has built our bodies so that
oftentimes, things that are badfor us have really bad side
effects too.
It's almost like some things inlife like overeating you know
you don't feel it right then,you know, but you do see it
eventually.
In the same way with drinking.
At the moment it's fine,everything's good, but it isn't
too long I mean hours beforeyou're feeling very unhappy.
(07:30):
Your body doesn't like it.
It's almost like God built usto reject certain things.
You think about sexuallytransmitted diseases and all the
other ramifications of drugs.
You know, when you see somebody, I remember crackheads with
their fingers burned from thething and they're now going from
normal weight to 10 pounds orwhatever.
But I mean there's all theselike physical things that go on.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Uh, what was the sickest you ever got.
If you run over.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Oh man, I remember being sick so many times.
But what's incredible about notonly me, but all those uh, you
know everybody who goes throughaddiction is none of that deters
you, none of that stops you,you would think man wake up.
Don't you see what this is doingto you, right?
But none of that is whatchanges somebody, and that's why
(08:19):
I just go back to what theBible says it's the goodness of
God that leads to repentance.
It's not hitting rock bottom,because I hit rock bottom and
then found another rock bottomto hit, and I know that a lot of
people can identify with thattoo.
But it's not the rock bottomthat leads you to repentance.
It's God and His goodness, hiskindness.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
So are we saying that all addicts in the world,
everywhere, if they read youknow the goodness of God that
they're going to stop theirsexual addiction, they're going
to stop drinking, they're goingto stop using drugs immediately
and it'll all be done?
All they got to do is see thatverse.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Not at all, because it wasn't even the case for me,
For you.
You know, I grew up in churchand so I had a lot of verses
memorized and I knew how to saydifferent things.
I knew the Romans wrote andeverything.
But I think it's when itbecomes real to you, when it
becomes more than just words ona piece of paper or words from a
(09:19):
sermon from a pastor orsomething.
And that's why, in the previouspodcast, I said I was a
secondhand Christian.
You know, I went through themotions, I did the steps, you
know, but it wasn't.
I give this example of you know,my sister-in-law really knows
my wife and I could ask mysister-in-law about my wife and
(09:42):
she could tell me everythingthat she knows about my wife.
But it's not the same thing asme knowing my wife as my wife,
you know.
So it's not only about you know.
The difference, for me, anyway,was not only just getting this
second hand, was not only justhearing what some preacher had
to say about who God was, andbut knowing him for myself and
(10:04):
having that one-on-one, intimaterelationship with him was, was
what made the difference.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So, when you're getting over this, I think it's
really critical, because Ireally believe that if I say
addiction, you know 2% of thepopulation perks up, or the
parents of someone addicted, soto speak.
Well, the problem is, a hundredpercent of us are addicted.
Right, we're addicted to sin,and it just comes out in
(10:33):
different ways.
Sin of your choice, right, somejust have worse ramifications,
right?
I mean, isn't that what you'velearned?
I mean, if you look at life lossjust killed you as much as
alcohol you know um, or kills asmany people as alcohol.
So does anger, anger rightrelationships and so on.
Would you agree with that that?
Overall, you've seen, even whenyour job now you're seeing the
(10:55):
ramifications of those thingsabsolutely.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, it plays out in in different ways.
Um, you know, for me it couldbe one thing, for somebody else
it could be one thing, forsomebody else it could be
another thing.
But I think the principle isstill the same.
It's still the fruit might bedifferent, but the root's the
same.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The fruit might be different, but the root's the
same.
That's great, yeah, that'sgreat when you think about this
in the sanctification process.
I think it's important Becauseall of us really like I say, we
have a root problem that'scausing us to do things we don't
want.
Whether it's just somebody whowants to eat better or go, you
know, they just keep doing thething they don't want to do, and
I think what you said iscritical, that is, I'm in the
(11:33):
middle of my peanut butter pielast night, thinking that I
shouldn't be eating this now.
I should be going to bed, andI'm in the middle of it.
And I'm in the middle of it,and I'm thinking the same as you
.
I really like it, though.
I really like it, though, andI've thought that at various
times, with different things,different sins I commit, and I
think that's critical to noticethat, because, number one, we've
got to acknowledge the truthand see why we're going back to
it.
And then, secondly, how do weget out, and it's not normally.
(11:55):
Almost never is it one verse ofScripture or one prayer.
I prayed, or one moment I had,you know?
Did you find that?
I mean, how many moments do youthink Jesus used to get you out
of alcohol?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Right, yeah, Lots.
And I think the realization ofthose moments you know that it
was man, he was here at thistime, he was here at this time,
he was here, here is is part ofthat, that of that goodness of
God that leads to repentance.
So it's not that I think thatword leads means like a process
(12:29):
of it.
You know, it's not just aone-time, you know deal.
I think that people cansometimes go through a process
of this realization of knowingwho they are, of knowing who God
is, Isn't that?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
wonderful and the closer it's like, the closer.
It's like focusing a camera wehave all these cameras Focusing
a camera and the closer you getin on God.
Now the problem we have inmarriage, the reason we have our
problems in marriage at all, isbecause the closer we get to
each other, the less we like,Because we're just not exactly
what we got, what we thought wewere getting.
But the closer you get to Jesus, the better, the better, the
(13:09):
better he gets, that's right.
He's closer to you now than hewas six years ago, right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, you know, and there's a verse in Ephesians
that says the love of Christsurpasses all knowledge.
It's like you know more thanwhat you think.
He loves you.
He loves you More than you knowthat you could imagine that he
does.
He does, and so the closer youget to him and I think getting
closer to him comes from knowingthat he loves you you know
(13:33):
you're not confident in going tosomebody that you think hates
you or that's upset with you,but knowing that he loves you
gives you that confidence to youknow.
okay, let me get a little bitcloser.
A little bit closer andrealizing that you know, even in
a time of trouble we canapproach the throne of grace.
And that's what we find.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, I think the cool thing is for everybody on
the planet criminal cop, whoeveryou are you know you've got one
message and that is that all ofthem can get a throne of grace.
Now the problem is that there'scoming a time Hebrews 9.20 says
it's one hundred men wants todie and then the judgment.
(14:14):
That will not be a throne ofgrace.
Then they'll face judgment.
It'll be like your moment incourt, except a thousand times
worse, because the worst thingyou had to look forward to was a
fine, maybe a day in jail,suspension of license, loss of
job.
That's all bad, but doesn'tcompare to the judgment that's
coming for those who refuse togo to the throne of grace.
Now, that's where it's grace,man, Go while the goodness of
(14:37):
God is leading you, becauseeventually it's going to be.
He's going to have to judgethis world, all of us, for
breaking his law, and be.
He's going to have to judgethis world, all of us, for
breaking his law.
And I think, whether you talkto Ivan or me or my wife, who's
lived a 10 times better lifethan any of us, but she still
would have this markers ofbreaking God's law, and so if
she didn't have Christ, shewould be facing this judgment.
And so, man, I want people toget the throne of grace, not the
(14:59):
throne of judgment.
It only happens now, so peoplecan stop right now.
I like what you were sayingabout dating and marriage.
You got married to your wife.
That was a moment, it was acommitment, you know, and it had
to happen, or else therelationship just didn't end.
For us as people, we can knowabout God, we can love this
podcast, love what Ivan does,love helping children, but we've
(15:22):
got to at some point getcommitted.
We got to look in front of you,know the world, and say I'm
committed to Jesus Christ.
He needs to take over my lifeand I need all my sins forgiven
and then you repent and give himyour life.
That can happen and that's whathappened with you, right.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I think of Paul in Romans 7 that you know, said
exactly the same thing.
I said it's like man the good Iwant to do, I don't do, and the
bad I don't want to do, I stilldo.
Who can save me from this?
And the answer that he gives atthe end of that chapter is
Jesus, you know.
So it's just putting all yourdependence on him.
Realizing at least you know,for me in my case, and I think
(16:04):
for so many is the more you trythe more you're going to fail
because you're trying it on yourown strength.
You know whether it be throughself-discipline or through you
know these step programs oranything like that and praise
God for them.
They've helped so many people.
But I think the real answer toto not only the, that fruit but
(16:25):
the root problem is is Jesus?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
It's interesting to get to the point you're at now
where you've been alcohol-freefor you said six years.
Yeah, okay, you listened to alot of sermons.
Is that fair?
Yeah, you heard a lot ofChristian songs.
Yeah, parents talk to you.
Yeah, friends talk to you.
Yeah, wife talks to you.
Yes, your bosses talk to you.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And so what you could say is all that was useless.
All that mattered was yourmoment.
Liquor store.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, that really isn't true, is it?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I mean really the sermons.
You heard the parents what theytold you, your wife telling you
.
The Lord used all of thosethings to get you to the point
of sanctification where you saidenough is enough.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
It wasn't really one moment.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It wasn't just one thing.
It's like the Lord was loadingyou.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Like right now you're quoting a scripture that you
learned while you're messing up.
Yeah, it wasn't like I knew allof this, you know at one time
and I'm still learning, you know, every single day.
There's a story in Luke 15 thatJesus gives about the lost coin
, the lost sheep and theprodigal son, and in all three
stories it's him going to search.
You know, even in the prodigalson story is when he came to
(17:33):
himself, when he realized who hewas, who his father was, the
father ran to him and he was theone who cleaned him.
He was the one who put a ringon his finger and shoes on his
feet and everything like that.
And so it's sometimes I think wethink, like man, I got to fix
myself up or I got to, you know,but like Paul says, it's
(17:55):
useless the good that you wantto do you're not going to be
able to do.
It's understanding that it's himwho does it for you and it's
kind of surrendering to allowhim to do that in your life and
realizing you know what he hasdone and it's a progressive
thing, you know, it doesn'talways all happen at once,
(18:16):
immediately, like that, but Ithink through the relationship
with him, through you know, likeyou mentioned hearing sermons,
or you know worship songs andstuff.
They mean so much different tome now.
You know, before it used to bejust a song that you sing and it
sounds pretty and you knowwhatever.
But even that song, theGoodness of God, it says you
(18:38):
know your goodness is runningafter me.
You know that comes from thePsalms.
It says surely goodness andmercy shall follow me all the
days of my life.
And I used to think it was.
Well, it's the days that I earnit or the days that I deserve
it, but it's not earned ordeserved.
It's realizing that it's everyday.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So let me ask you this six years ago you had your
last drink.
We've talked about that.
Six years ago, I assume, youstopped partying.
You gave up a lot right thenyeah one uh, question is um how
much do you think about it andwish you could be back there uh
that I wish I could be back andfix everything oh, go back you
(19:22):
know what?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
uh, I think at the beginning I would think about it
a lot, but honestly, now it'snot something that I really
think about too much anymore,and I think that that comes in
seeing yourself different,seeing that you're not the same
anymore.
The Bible says that we're a newcreature in Christ, and so the
(19:47):
old has passed.
Behold, all things are made newand all things are of God, and
so I think, seeing myself in adifferent way than just seeing
myself as the alcoholic, as theguy who can't control himself,
as you know, as how I used tosee myself, I think that that
(20:09):
has played a huge part in theway that I think also, yeah, I
think that's really important inhow you stay clear every day,
because for those of us, becauseyou're still struggling with
different addictions you knowall the problems of life.
The same nature yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And so, as you're doing that, where are you seeing
the victory?
Where do you?
What keeps you from, you know,going back to the bar tonight
Because the thing that youthought was fun back then, by
the way, let's just be honest,the pleasures in our pleasures
for recent, he says, theirpleasures- since they were fun,
it's fun.
Fun to do some of these badthings or some of these things
that hurt us, but you don't doit, and so the every day of it
(20:54):
do you find the Lord deliveringyou, little by little, to where
it's less and less somethingthat pulls you than it did maybe
five and a half years ago.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, absolutely you know.
And again, I think it all justcomes back to relationship with
him.
When you see that he has thatrelationship with you, there's a
couple of verses where Jesussays you know what you did to
the least of these.
You did it to me and you know.
When Saul has his road toDamascus experience, he says
(21:22):
Saul, why are you persecuting me?
You know he wasn't persecutingthe person, jesus, he was
persecuting the church.
But God just sees himself, soone with us you know, and that's
Jesus' prayer in John 17, thatthey may be one even as we are
one.
And there's a verse I forgetwhat it is, but it says that Eve
(21:42):
was deceived by not seeing thesimplicity that's in Christ, by
not seeing that union that shehad with him.
And so when we see ourselvestotally separate from him and
how I used to think, like God'sover there, he hates me and I'm
over here and I hate him andwe're just like two things that
don't mix.
It's like water and oil orsomething.
That's what led to all thebehavior and decisions that I
(22:06):
was making.
And then I tried to fix thatneed for him through substances,
through lust, through alcohol,through drugs, but realizing
that he's come to us.
And there's a verse in 2Corinthians that says he who
knew no sin was made to be sinso that we would be made the
(22:26):
righteousness of God in him.
I think it is so pivotal.
It's the gospel in one verse, Ithink, where everything that we
ever could do and have done andwill do was put on Jesus and
everything that he.
It's almost like a change in anexchange you know everything
(22:50):
that I was and everything that Icould ever do wrong and you
know was put on him and he was.
He gave me his righteousness.
You know he took my sin and hegave me his righteousness.
It's incredible to think aboutand it's something, I think,
that we slowly realize more andmore every day and stuff, and I
think that that realizationproduces itself in how we live.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think that's powerful.
I think if we thought aboutthis podcast a lot of times we
say what would you say to thecop about this, what would you
say to the cop about this, whatwould you say to the criminal
about it?
So I'd say one to the cop.
I'd say again I talk about thisa lot for cops.
But, uh, empathy is huge.
But, um, empathy for otherpeople and their struggles.
Acknowledge your own struggles,uh, but realize that the root
(23:37):
is the problem.
The root is the problem.
So, whether you're a cop, Idon't care.
I know you're not going to jail, I know you're not committing
crime, but you've broken God'slaw.
And so I would say deal with theroot, Deal with the root.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Go to.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Jesus, let him take away your sin.
You need forgiveness, likeeverybody else.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
To the criminal, to the guy who's been committing
crimes, I would say, after story, after story, after story in
the Bible of criminals that havebeen redeemed for Christ, story
after story, or guys that werecriminals even though they
weren't charged with it, that wesee the story and, wow, jesus
makes a point to say he savedthem.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So for the criminal.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
My gosh, you're in a great place to repent and get to
know Jesus now, because he'llredeem you right from where
you're at.
And for the Christian, I wouldsay the sanctification process
is long and I'm not going to sayjust hard, because it was
enjoyable.
It was enjoyable for you thefirst night you got a victory.
It was enjoyable for you whenyou heard your wife give you a
(24:40):
hug after the first week ofsobriety.
It was enjoyable for you whenyou heard your wife give you a
hug after the first week ofsobriety.
It was enjoyable when you feltclose to the Lord finally, where
you didn't feel.
But at the same time we canwalk with Jesus in this
relationship.
He said very simple how do youcome to Christ?
Follow me, and that's the idea.
Get behind Jesus, walk just inhis footsteps, stay right next
to him, do what Jesus would do,see him change your life.
(25:01):
This
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You're back for Cops, criminals and Christ podcast.
I'm here talking to Ivan Now.
Ivan now is a pastor, butbefore he had a bit of a
drinking problem and what I wantto know is how did he stop
drinking and how does it affectall of us with our addictions?
Is there anything we can learn?
Let's talk to Ivan.
We talked some before.
We'll give you, give me a twominute version of your life,
(00:59):
kind of overview where you were,where you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I think even the title of this podcast kind of
sums it up.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I was a cop.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
I was a criminal, yeah, and now I'm with Christ.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I started in law enforcement when I was young.
I got into legal problemsbecause of drinking, because of
alcohol, but then Christredeemed me and now you're doing
what I now I'm a pastor withboost others, uh, with the
church so, so okay.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So I gotta hear more about boost others.
I wanted to talk more about it.
You've mentioned some in thepast, but I want to hear more
about it and, as I'm uh on theboard as well, I just love what
you're doing and and really Ithink it's important for
everybody to know that there'suh, by god's grace, there's lots
of godly people out here wholove the poor and care for the
needy and certainly care for thekind of hurt.
(01:52):
But Ivan is what can't becaptured in a podcast is he's
got what you might say thespecial sauce that makes him 10
times better than the rest of us, just tremendously empathetic
and godly and genuinelyconcerned.
So you know it's funny becauseif I my podcast would sell more
(02:14):
if I had a famous celebrity inmy podcast, you know.
But in God's eyes you're thebig celebrity, believe me.
You know, the values of God'ssystem is just very different
than what the Lord's done withyour life.
It's just proof of yourcelebrity status and it's really
what the Lord has done, notwhat Ivan has done.
Right, which is so different,because I listen sometimes to
(02:35):
podcasts and I listen to things.
I'm so disgusted with themtelling us how great the person
is that they're going to talkabout, when the truth is we're
crediting the wrong person.
Why do you think you turned outthe way you did?
I mean, tell us.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
I think what you said was right on.
It's not looking at what we did, because if I did that man I'd
be depressed, but it's lookingat what Jesus did for us.
It's looking at what God didfor us and realizing, like you
said, grace, like what Paul says.
By the grace of God I am what Iam.
(03:10):
You know, god forbid that wewere sum total of the decisions
that we've made and what we'vedone, and so I thank God that he
freed me from that, from thatway of thinking.
You know, my struggle wasalcohol, but the same with every
man, you know there's lust andso many things that come with
(03:35):
that whole lifestyle.
But I think you know I went toAA because I had to.
It was part of the courtprocess or whatever thing, so I
had to.
I scheduled it on nights wherebecause they would test you, you
know, every time you came in tosee if you'd been drinking.
But I knew that it took threedays to get that out of your
(03:59):
system, and so I would scheduleit on nights where it was long
enough that I could still drinkwhile I'm doing this process,
but I would drink enough waterto get it out of my system in
three days and then have mymeeting and I would test clean.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Now you think every addict really has a story like
that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, and I know what it's like because I've been
there, you know, and I know allthe ways to cheat the system and
to lie to your family and to doall these things, to to kind of
, uh, try to make a excuse foryourself or whatever.
Um cause, even when I was goingthrough all of that, I was
still drinking, you know, uh.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So it wasn't that stuff helped me, uh, you know it
was can I ask you how manytimes I want you to think back
and feel the moments?
How many times did you sayenough, and I'm never going to
drink again?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Oh man, thousands of times and I try to do it on my
own strength and I'll neverforget, even one time after
doing that and still drinking, Isaid how am I ever going to
stop?
I liked doing this, you know.
It's not even something that Idon't like, I don't want to do
it, but I just keep doing it andI enjoy it.
(05:10):
I like it, you know.
And just seeing it as a like abottomless pit, like just a
hopeless situation of what?
How can I ever climb out ofthis?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Do you think you ever mental health wise?
You know that's a big wordnowadays which guys like you
would never use.
You would never.
It would have been embarrassinggrowing up for you to say you
were going to seek help orwhatever.
Right, yeah.
So so now, looking back, I mean, do you think you struggled
some with depression during thattime period?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And it is a depressant so.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that all forms ofaddiction, to an extent, are to
try to cope with some of thosethings.
It's like you trying to figureout how can I help my situation
or whatever.
Not to put myself ineverybody's situation, because
everybody's different but Ithink that to an extent, to a
(06:01):
degree whether it be drugs,alcohol, sex, you know any
addiction, I think, is a waythat we try to fix our own
situation or try to help our owncircumstances and we try to
forget about it for a littlewhile or try to feel good for a
(06:23):
little bit, but in reality itjust makes the situation worse.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And your story of going on.
How long did it go on, from thetime you can remember the first
time you said enough to thetime you actually stopped.
Was it like a week, two weeks,six years, 10 years?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It was a couple of years.
It was a couple of years.
I remember just the firstcouple of times.
You know drinking to the pointof not remembering and you know
waking up with the hangover andeverybody goes through that
situation of like man, I'llnever do this again or whatever.
But it was just a couple hourslater I was doing it all over
(07:00):
again doing it all over again.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Isn't it funny that God has built our bodies so that
oftentimes, things that are badfor us have really bad side
effects too.
It's almost like some things inlife like overeating you know
you don't feel it right then,you know, but you do see it
eventually.
In the same way with drinking.
At the moment it's fine,everything's good, but it isn't
too long I mean hours beforeyou're feeling very unhappy.
(07:30):
Your body doesn't like it.
It's almost like God built usto reject certain things.
You think about sexuallytransmitted diseases and all the
other ramifications of drugs.
You know, when you see somebody, I remember crackheads with
their fingers burned from thething and they're now going from
normal weight to 10 pounds orwhatever.
But I mean there's all theselike physical things that go on.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Uh, what was the sickest you ever got.
If you run over.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Oh man, I remember being sick so many times.
But what's incredible about notonly me, but all those uh, you
know everybody who goes throughaddiction is none of that deters
you, none of that stops you,you would think man wake up.
Don't you see what this is doingto you, right?
But none of that is whatchanges somebody, and that's why
(08:19):
I just go back to what theBible says it's the goodness of
God that leads to repentance.
It's not hitting rock bottom,because I hit rock bottom and
then found another rock bottomto hit, and I know that a lot of
people can identify with thattoo.
But it's not the rock bottomthat leads you to repentance.
It's God and His goodness, hiskindness.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
So are we saying that all addicts in the world,
everywhere, if they read youknow the goodness of God that
they're going to stop theirsexual addiction, they're going
to stop drinking, they're goingto stop using drugs immediately
and it'll all be done?
All they got to do is see thatverse.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Not at all, because it wasn't even the case for me,
For you.
You know, I grew up in churchand so I had a lot of verses
memorized and I knew how to saydifferent things.
I knew the Romans wrote andeverything.
But I think it's when itbecomes real to you, when it
becomes more than just words ona piece of paper or words from a
(09:19):
sermon from a pastor orsomething.
And that's why, in the previouspodcast, I said I was a
secondhand Christian.
You know, I went through themotions, I did the steps, you
know, but it wasn't.
I give this example of you know,my sister-in-law really knows
my wife and I could ask mysister-in-law about my wife and
(09:42):
she could tell me everythingthat she knows about my wife.
But it's not the same thing asme knowing my wife as my wife,
you know.
So it's not only about you know.
The difference, for me, anyway,was not only just getting this
second hand, was not only justhearing what some preacher had
to say about who God was, andbut knowing him for myself and
(10:04):
having that one-on-one, intimaterelationship with him was, was
what made the difference.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So, when you're getting over this, I think it's
really critical, because Ireally believe that if I say
addiction, you know 2% of thepopulation perks up, or the
parents of someone addicted, soto speak.
Well, the problem is, a hundredpercent of us are addicted.
Right, we're addicted to sin,and it just comes out in
(10:33):
different ways.
Sin of your choice, right, somejust have worse ramifications,
right?
I mean, isn't that what you'velearned?
I mean, if you look at life lossjust killed you as much as
alcohol you know um, or kills asmany people as alcohol.
So does anger, anger rightrelationships and so on.
Would you agree with that that?
Overall, you've seen, even whenyour job now you're seeing the
(10:55):
ramifications of those thingsabsolutely.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, it plays out in in different ways.
Um, you know, for me it couldbe one thing, for somebody else
it could be one thing, forsomebody else it could be
another thing.
But I think the principle isstill the same.
It's still the fruit might bedifferent, but the root's the
same.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The fruit might be different, but the root's the
same.
That's great, yeah, that'sgreat when you think about this
in the sanctification process.
I think it's important Becauseall of us really like I say, we
have a root problem that'scausing us to do things we don't
want.
Whether it's just somebody whowants to eat better or go, you
know, they just keep doing thething they don't want to do, and
I think what you said iscritical, that is, I'm in the
(11:33):
middle of my peanut butter pielast night, thinking that I
shouldn't be eating this now.
I should be going to bed, andI'm in the middle of it.
And I'm in the middle of it,and I'm thinking the same as you
.
I really like it, though.
I really like it, though, andI've thought that at various
times, with different things,different sins I commit, and I
think that's critical to noticethat, because, number one, we've
got to acknowledge the truthand see why we're going back to
it.
And then, secondly, how do weget out, and it's not normally.
(11:55):
Almost never is it one verse ofScripture or one prayer.
I prayed, or one moment I had,you know?
Did you find that?
I mean, how many moments do youthink Jesus used to get you out
of alcohol?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Right, yeah, Lots.
And I think the realization ofthose moments you know that it
was man, he was here at thistime, he was here at this time,
he was here, here is is part ofthat, that of that goodness of
God that leads to repentance.
So it's not that I think thatword leads means like a process
(12:29):
of it.
You know, it's not just aone-time, you know deal.
I think that people cansometimes go through a process
of this realization of knowingwho they are, of knowing who God
is, Isn't that?
Speaker 2 (12:46):
wonderful and the closer it's like, the closer.
It's like focusing a camera wehave all these cameras Focusing
a camera and the closer you getin on God.
Now the problem we have inmarriage, the reason we have our
problems in marriage at all, isbecause the closer we get to
each other, the less we like,Because we're just not exactly
what we got, what we thought wewere getting.
But the closer you get to Jesus, the better, the better, the
(13:09):
better he gets, that's right.
He's closer to you now than hewas six years ago, right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, you know, and there's a verse in Ephesians
that says the love of Christsurpasses all knowledge.
It's like you know more thanwhat you think.
He loves you.
He loves you More than you knowthat you could imagine that he
does.
He does, and so the closer youget to him and I think getting
closer to him comes from knowingthat he loves you you know
(13:33):
you're not confident in going tosomebody that you think hates
you or that's upset with you,but knowing that he loves you
gives you that confidence to youknow.
okay, let me get a little bitcloser.
A little bit closer andrealizing that you know, even in
a time of trouble we canapproach the throne of grace.
And that's what we find.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, I think the cool thing is for everybody on
the planet criminal cop, whoeveryou are you know you've got one
message and that is that all ofthem can get a throne of grace.
Now the problem is that there'scoming a time Hebrews 9.20 says
it's one hundred men wants todie and then the judgment.
(14:14):
That will not be a throne ofgrace.
Then they'll face judgment.
It'll be like your moment incourt, except a thousand times
worse, because the worst thingyou had to look forward to was a
fine, maybe a day in jail,suspension of license, loss of
job.
That's all bad, but doesn'tcompare to the judgment that's
coming for those who refuse togo to the throne of grace.
Now, that's where it's grace,man, Go while the goodness of
(14:37):
God is leading you, becauseeventually it's going to be.
He's going to have to judgethis world, all of us, for
breaking his law, and be.
He's going to have to judgethis world, all of us, for
breaking his law.
And I think, whether you talkto Ivan or me or my wife, who's
lived a 10 times better lifethan any of us, but she still
would have this markers ofbreaking God's law, and so if
she didn't have Christ, shewould be facing this judgment.
And so, man, I want people toget the throne of grace, not the
(14:59):
throne of judgment.
It only happens now, so peoplecan stop right now.
I like what you were sayingabout dating and marriage.
You got married to your wife.
That was a moment, it was acommitment, you know, and it had
to happen, or else therelationship just didn't end.
For us as people, we can knowabout God, we can love this
podcast, love what Ivan does,love helping children, but we've
(15:22):
got to at some point getcommitted.
We got to look in front of you,know the world, and say I'm
committed to Jesus Christ.
He needs to take over my lifeand I need all my sins forgiven
and then you repent and give himyour life.
That can happen and that's whathappened with you, right.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I think of Paul in Romans 7 that you know, said
exactly the same thing.
I said it's like man the good Iwant to do, I don't do, and the
bad I don't want to do, I stilldo.
Who can save me from this?
And the answer that he gives atthe end of that chapter is
Jesus, you know.
So it's just putting all yourdependence on him.
Realizing at least you know,for me in my case, and I think
(16:04):
for so many is the more you trythe more you're going to fail
because you're trying it on yourown strength.
You know whether it be throughself-discipline or through you
know these step programs oranything like that and praise
God for them.
They've helped so many people.
But I think the real answer toto not only the, that fruit but
(16:25):
the root problem is is Jesus?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
It's interesting to get to the point you're at now
where you've been alcohol-freefor you said six years.
Yeah, okay, you listened to alot of sermons.
Is that fair?
Yeah, you heard a lot ofChristian songs.
Yeah, parents talk to you.
Yeah, friends talk to you.
Yeah, wife talks to you.
Yes, your bosses talk to you.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And so what you could say is all that was useless.
All that mattered was yourmoment.
Liquor store.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, that really isn't true, is it?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I mean really the sermons.
You heard the parents what theytold you, your wife telling you
.
The Lord used all of thosethings to get you to the point
of sanctification where you saidenough is enough.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
It wasn't really one moment.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It wasn't just one thing.
It's like the Lord was loadingyou.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Like right now you're quoting a scripture that you
learned while you're messing up.
Yeah, it wasn't like I knew allof this, you know at one time
and I'm still learning, you know, every single day.
There's a story in Luke 15 thatJesus gives about the lost coin
, the lost sheep and theprodigal son, and in all three
stories it's him going to search.
You know, even in the prodigalson story is when he came to
(17:33):
himself, when he realized who hewas, who his father was, the
father ran to him and he was theone who cleaned him.
He was the one who put a ringon his finger and shoes on his
feet and everything like that.
And so it's sometimes I think wethink, like man, I got to fix
myself up or I got to, you know,but like Paul says, it's
(17:55):
useless the good that you wantto do you're not going to be
able to do.
It's understanding that it's himwho does it for you and it's
kind of surrendering to allowhim to do that in your life and
realizing you know what he hasdone and it's a progressive
thing, you know, it doesn'talways all happen at once,
(18:16):
immediately, like that, but Ithink through the relationship
with him, through you know, likeyou mentioned hearing sermons,
or you know worship songs andstuff.
They mean so much different tome now.
You know, before it used to bejust a song that you sing and it
sounds pretty and you knowwhatever.
But even that song, theGoodness of God, it says you
(18:38):
know your goodness is runningafter me.
You know that comes from thePsalms.
It says surely goodness andmercy shall follow me all the
days of my life.
And I used to think it was.
Well, it's the days that I earnit or the days that I deserve
it, but it's not earned ordeserved.
It's realizing that it's everyday.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
So let me ask you this six years ago you had your
last drink.
We've talked about that.
Six years ago, I assume, youstopped partying.
You gave up a lot right thenyeah one uh, question is um how
much do you think about it andwish you could be back there uh
that I wish I could be back andfix everything oh, go back you
(19:22):
know what?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
uh, I think at the beginning I would think about it
a lot, but honestly, now it'snot something that I really
think about too much anymore,and I think that that comes in
seeing yourself different,seeing that you're not the same
anymore.
The Bible says that we're a newcreature in Christ, and so the
(19:47):
old has passed.
Behold, all things are made newand all things are of God, and
so I think, seeing myself in adifferent way than just seeing
myself as the alcoholic, as theguy who can't control himself,
as you know, as how I used tosee myself, I think that that
(20:09):
has played a huge part in theway that I think also, yeah, I
think that's really important inhow you stay clear every day,
because for those of us, becauseyou're still struggling with
different addictions you knowall the problems of life.
The same nature yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And so, as you're doing that, where are you seeing
the victory?
Where do you?
What keeps you from, you know,going back to the bar tonight
Because the thing that youthought was fun back then, by
the way, let's just be honest,the pleasures in our pleasures
for recent, he says, theirpleasures- since they were fun,
it's fun.
Fun to do some of these badthings or some of these things
that hurt us, but you don't doit, and so the every day of it
(20:54):
do you find the Lord deliveringyou, little by little, to where
it's less and less somethingthat pulls you than it did maybe
five and a half years ago.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, absolutely you know.
And again, I think it all justcomes back to relationship with
him.
When you see that he has thatrelationship with you, there's a
couple of verses where Jesussays you know what you did to
the least of these.
You did it to me and you know.
When Saul has his road toDamascus experience, he says
(21:22):
Saul, why are you persecuting me?
You know he wasn't persecutingthe person, jesus, he was
persecuting the church.
But God just sees himself, soone with us you know, and that's
Jesus' prayer in John 17, thatthey may be one even as we are
one.
And there's a verse I forgetwhat it is, but it says that Eve
(21:42):
was deceived by not seeing thesimplicity that's in Christ, by
not seeing that union that shehad with him.
And so when we see ourselvestotally separate from him and
how I used to think, like God'sover there, he hates me and I'm
over here and I hate him andwe're just like two things that
don't mix.
It's like water and oil orsomething.
That's what led to all thebehavior and decisions that I
(22:06):
was making.
And then I tried to fix thatneed for him through substances,
through lust, through alcohol,through drugs, but realizing
that he's come to us.
And there's a verse in 2Corinthians that says he who
knew no sin was made to be sinso that we would be made the
(22:26):
righteousness of God in him.
I think it is so pivotal.
It's the gospel in one verse, Ithink, where everything that we
ever could do and have done andwill do was put on Jesus and
everything that he.
It's almost like a change in anexchange you know everything
(22:50):
that I was and everything that Icould ever do wrong and you
know was put on him and he was.
He gave me his righteousness.
You know he took my sin and hegave me his righteousness.
It's incredible to think aboutand it's something, I think,
that we slowly realize more andmore every day and stuff, and I
think that that realizationproduces itself in how we live.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I think that's powerful.
I think if we thought aboutthis podcast a lot of times we
say what would you say to thecop about this, what would you
say to the cop about this, whatwould you say to the criminal
about it?
So I'd say one to the cop.
I'd say again I talk about thisa lot for cops.
But, uh, empathy is huge.
But, um, empathy for otherpeople and their struggles.
Acknowledge your own struggles,uh, but realize that the root
(23:37):
is the problem.
The root is the problem.
So, whether you're a cop, Idon't care.
I know you're not going to jail, I know you're not committing
crime, but you've broken God'slaw.
And so I would say deal with theroot, Deal with the root.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Go to.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Jesus, let him take away your sin.
You need forgiveness, likeeverybody else.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
To the criminal, to the guy who's been committing
crimes, I would say, after story, after story, after story in
the Bible of criminals that havebeen redeemed for Christ, story
after story, or guys that werecriminals even though they
weren't charged with it, that wesee the story and, wow, jesus
makes a point to say he savedthem.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So for the criminal.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
My gosh, you're in a great place to repent and get to
know Jesus now, because he'llredeem you right from where
you're at.
And for the Christian, I wouldsay the sanctification process
is long and I'm not going to sayjust hard, because it was
enjoyable.
It was enjoyable for you thefirst night you got a victory.
It was enjoyable for you whenyou heard your wife give you a
(24:40):
hug after the first week ofsobriety.
It was enjoyable for you whenyou heard your wife give you a
hug after the first week ofsobriety.
It was enjoyable when you feltclose to the Lord finally, where
you didn't feel.
But at the same time we canwalk with Jesus in this
relationship.
He said very simple how do youcome to Christ?
Follow me, and that's the idea.
Get behind Jesus, walk just inhis footsteps, stay right next
to him, do what Jesus would do,see him change your life.
(25:01):
This
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