What happens when the person meant to uphold the law finds themselves on the wrong side of it? In this raw and powerful episode, we meet a former police officer whose dream career spiraled into alcoholism, culminating in his own arrest for DUI.
The journey begins with his childhood dream of becoming a police officer—a dream he achieved at age 20. But beneath the badge lurked a growing addiction that would eventually cost him everything. Despite interventions from colleagues and supervisors, his drinking escalated to dangerous levels. Even after his arrest and the humiliation of being handcuffed by fellow officers, he continued drinking, seemingly unable to break free from alcohol's grip.
The turning point wasn't what you might expect. It wasn't jail time or losing his job that finally broke through—it was a profound realization about identity. Standing in a liquor store with bottle in hand, he experienced what he describes as a spiritual awakening: he wasn't just trying to be a "good Christian," he was a son of God. This shift from performance-based religion to relationship fundamentally changed his perspective, though recovery would still take time.
Perhaps the most powerful moment came when, once again unconscious in his car, he was discovered not by police but by family members. Their difficult but genuine forgiveness provided a tangible experience of grace that proved transformative. Six years sober now, he serves in ministry to families experiencing trauma—from childhood cancer to abuse situations—bringing the same compassion and understanding that saved him.
Whether you're struggling with addiction, know someone who is, or simply appreciate stories of profound transformation, this episode offers hope that no matter how far you've fallen, redemption remains possible. Listen now to discover how rock bottom became the foundation for a completely transformed life.
Let's connect!
Instagram: @theundercoverpastor
Facebook: @theundercoverpastor
Tik Tok: @theundercoverpastor
Youtube: @dalesutherlandundercoverpastor
Website: theundercoverpastor.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So listen.
Today we've got on the podcasta guy who grew up as a Christian
ended up a drunk, ended upgetting arrested and yet he was
a policeman and Christ totallychanged life.
Now he's a minister.
Can you believe it?
You got to come and hear thisstory today.
What was your lowest pointwhere you knew things couldn't
(00:55):
continue the way they were?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
When I woke up in my car didn't know where I was and
I hear a knock on the window andit was a surprise to see who it
was.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That was the end of a long road.
Yeah, so tell me, tell us yougrew up.
How, where'd you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I grew up here in Northern Virginia.
I was actually born at FairfaxHospital, which is oh, really, I
didn't know that yeah.
It's so cool that I get toserve there now.
Yeah Hospital which is, ohreally, I didn't know that.
Yeah, it's so cool that I getto serve there now.
Yeah, but I grew up here inthis area.
I grew up in church.
My family was Christian, so Iwas Christian.
I'd like to say that I was asecondhand Christian, yeah, yeah
(01:37):
.
Yeah, it's because I went tochurch, because my family went
to church, sure, but I neverkind of really developed that
one-on-one relationship with him.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You'd been around church, around Christians, your
whole life.
And when you got out, what didyou want to do with your life?
What did you think you wantedto do when you got out of high
school or whatever?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
My dream was to be in law enforcement, was to be, a
police officer and when I was 20, I got hired.
I had to wait a little bit togo through the academy to turn
21.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
What police department?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
With Prince William, prince William County Police.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, that's a county that's a few, maybe a half hour
from DC and it's a real mix.
You enjoyed it.
You liked being in the police.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I loved it.
It was my dream come true.
It was something that I wantedto do, since I was a kid, um,
and you were a policeman.
How long?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
uh, for about a little over three years a little
over three years, so you'regoing along your police career.
Grew up in a christian home.
What are we doing a podcastabout?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I mean, there's this sounds like a nice little life.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
What's what's the deal?
What ended your police career?
Why'd you stop If you loved itso much?
What?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
happened Myself.
Yeah, yeah, I thought I hadbuilt a pretty good life for
myself, but I realized that itwasn't.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Why?
What happened that you had toleave the police department?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I guess backtracking a little bit just to give a
little bit of the back story.
I grew up in church, right, butwhen I was like 16, 17,
something happened with thepastor and my family and stuff
and it kind of pushed me awayfrom that For my mistake.
I was looking at man, I wasn'tlooking at God, and I thought
(03:23):
that the pastor was like theclosest thing to God.
I thought he was our kind ofrepresent representative of of
who God was.
And when I kind of saw how heuh had been acting towards my
family and I during a really,really difficult time in our
lives, I was like, if this ishow God is, this is not what I
want to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And uh.
So when I was 20 years old,like I said, I applied, got
hired, was in police work, but Istarted ever since I was 18, I
moved out and kind of living onmy own terms.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Can you say that like social drinking, partying, that
kind of stuff?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah it started out that way anyway, but then it
really became uh an addiction.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It became a problem for me even before you joined
the police department or moreafter uh well, once I turned 21
was when I could drink uhlegally whatever I would drink
before that you know that Icould access it at all times.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
But once I was 21, which was right when I was
becoming a police officer, Istarted to drink more often,
more often.
It became more than just asocial thing, or on the weekends
or whatever, and it became adaily thing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You were drinking daily while being the police.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And were you drinking on duty?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Uh, not on duty, no, but there were, when I was a
policeman in DC there's lots ofdrinking on duty as well as off
duty Not me, but the other guysI worked with wasn't unusual.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So the so for you.
You had the uh, you starteddrinking and it increased more
and more.
So and it increased more andmore.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So what was?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
your favorite drink.
What did you drink?
The?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
most Anything, really .
I mean I stayed away from beerbut liquor rum, vodka, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
And so you're drinking like this.
You're going out, you'regetting farther from God too, or
are you still interestedspiritually?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I had zero interest spiritually.
I thought God wanted nothing todo with me and god wanted
nothing to do with me and Iwanted nothing to do with him.
And that was our you knowrelationship, if you want to
call it that yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So you kept drinking and you ended up.
Did you ever get in trouble atthe police department?
Did you ever get?
Did anybody ever find out?
Did the two you know mess upeach other?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
yes, um, so, prior to any legal trouble happening, um
, a couple people that I workedwith uh, talked to the
higher-ups like they saw the theproblem that I had and they
tried to do like counseling andwhatever for me and stuff, but I
just couldn't care so they sentyou some guys, snitched on you
(06:02):
yeah, yeah, yeah and.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And then you got in trouble with the bosses and they
got you some counseling andsaid hey, man, you got to stop
drinking.
Yeah, did you stop drinking?
Did you listen to the bosses?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Not at all, not at all.
I remember we actually went ona trip to a IACP conference in.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Philly, it's International Association of
Chiefs of Police.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And they took me with them and stuff.
And you know we went partyingand stuff like that too.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So it was like you know, I don't know the bosses
were there and they weredrinking like you were drinking
exactly, yeah, so it wasn't socompelling of a message, right
yeah and I'll never forget oneuh captain, who, who me?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
he was like you.
Got a badge in your pocket, sowho's going to stop you?
Just keep going.
That was kind of the mentalityor the mindset or whatever,
until I did get stopped, until Idid get in trouble.
I was a police officer and Igot arrested for DUI.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Wait a second now, just police-wise, we don't do
that kind of thing.
We try not to arrest uh otherpolice officers yeah and uh,
certainly for major offenses,yes, but for drinking and
driving or other things likethat, I don't think you'll find
a policeman that would normallyarrest, unless, uh, they get
back in their car.
(07:23):
Generally we try to get themout of the car and send them
home, take them home, evenwhatever.
How did this happen?
Why did you end up gettinglocked up?
Did you take a swing at theofficer or something, or what
did you do?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I was asleep in my car, oh okay, and I was in a
parking lot and I hear a knockon my window and I wake up.
I see who it is and he asked meto step out of the car like
normal and I I thought the samething.
I was like he's not gonna doanything or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
you know call me a taxi, state police or or county
local.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, did you know the guy I didn't know him, you
know, um, it was outside of myjurisdiction.
Yeah, so he's putting methrough the test and I'm
starting to realize, like, is hereally trying to do this to me,
or whatever?
At that point, you know, theyasked you to blow and I refused,
so he arrested me.
That was it.
Yeah, yep, so in Virginia, infairness.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
You have this what do you call it.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
The BAC.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Breathless.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
BAC yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So you, you breathe into it.
You just had to blow there, butyou were going to blow the
station at the whole.
Okay, so if you refuse, youlose your lights for six months
and you have to get arrested,correct?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Um, so that was your scenario.
You figured because the rule isa lot of guys say it's better
to not do that because you getum, otherwise it gets.
The number of the blood alcoholcontent is the concern.
If it's too high, right, that'sthe idea.
Okay, so that's what you meanwhen you say didn't blow right,
so you did.
You didn't do that and you knew, boom, that's it.
He had no option at that point.
He's got to lock you up, orright um, so okay, so he locked
(08:58):
you up so can you tell himyou're the police?
Yeah, yeah and what did he say?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
you remember that, give me the scolding of like you
know.
Yeah, you should know better,exactly, and he's right, he
should know better.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
We don't want policemen out drinking and
driving.
That's right.
That's a bad idea.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So you get arrested and you end up going to the
station.
What jurisdiction you getarrested in?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
In Alexandria, in Alexandria, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So what does it feel like when you're in handcuffs
now and you're over at thepolice station?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, it was surreal being on the other side of it.
You know I'd been in handcuffsa thousand times in the academy
for practice and everything likethat, but this time it was real
, you know, and I remember themtaking my picture and going into
the to the cell or whatever andthinking like man, how did I
(09:47):
get here?
But you know, not even that wasmy rock bottom.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, that had to be your lowest point to a great
degree, at least to that pointin your life.
I mean, you're there locked upand you guys have to picture
this in the where he would havegone into would have been a
bunch of different criminalssitting there, a bunch of guys
locked up.
One could be locked up formurder, one could be locked up
for spitting on the sidewalk,but everybody's locked up there.
Was it a night, I mean late atnight, so you got drunks and
(10:13):
people hollering and all that,and you're used to controlling
that crowd right now you're oneof the crowd now I'm one of the
crowd exactly yeah, and thenputting a cell too, yeah and
then did you get anypreferential treatment.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
When you got there, anybody say hey, come on man,
he's a police.
Let's, let's take him not no,vip, no no I was just yeah and
uh guy okay, I had to wait tillmorning and they called my
supervisor.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Wow, my supervisor came in.
They made you wait till morningtoo.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
My supervisor came and picked me up and that was a
ride I'll never forget.
Yeah, a lot of silence, but alot of— when I was a sergeant,
I've gone to a few policestations to pick up officers.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's unpleasant, yeah it's unpleasant
.
Yeah, unpleasant for them.
So that feels like you're nowon your way back.
You're riding with the sergeantin the car.
Does it hit you that this showmight be over, that you might
lose your job?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, that was my mindset at that time.
But just to be honest with you,later that night I was out
doing the same thing again.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
The same night, yep, after getting locked up and
being out of jail, and how muchyou drinking in a day?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Ivan, what are you drinking Too much?
Yeah, it was.
Every day was a just to drinkto get blacked out?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I mean, it wasn't like Really All the way to
blacked out.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, you weren't happy, that was just a everyday
thing for me.
Jeez, yeah, that's a lot.
So anyway, I went and picked upmy car from the, from the tow
lot, and went and bought abottle and went out and doing it
again.
I just I was that lost, Ididn't care.
Were you worried about losingyour job?
I was to an extent, but I justI can't explain it to you I just
didn't care didn't think yeah,okay, so now you're that lasts
(12:03):
how long?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
six months or something, before they actually
fire you, or how long?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
yeah, uh, they kept me on for a little while.
Uh, like you know, they took uhmy badge and everything like
that.
So I was just working doingpaperwork and stuff like that,
but uh, embarrassing yeah, yeah,very embarrassing very
embarrassing, um, but you know,even throughout all that time,
uh, like I said, I just keptdoing it.
(12:29):
You know, I I got one dui, butI really should have got a
thousand of them really yeah,because you kept driving too
yeah, oh no really
Speaker 2 (12:37):
yeah yeah, even knowing that second and third
you, you actually go to jail.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And that didn't stop you.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It didn't stop me, so jail didn't stop you.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
All your parents' disappointment didn't stop you
Losing your job, didn't stop you.
What's going on?
Why are you sitting heredifferent today?
Why did you stop drinking?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
The real answer to that?
The only answer, is God.
During that time, I hadobviously ruined a lot of
relationships in my life.
I was even engaged at that timeto get married and that ended.
I ruined a lot of relationshipswith my family, my parents, my
brothers, sister.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
It was not a good time.
Everybody was trying to helpyou.
Everybody was trying to get youto stop.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
But I just rejected the help.
I didn't want the help.
Like I said from the beginning,that's what I thought my
relationship with God was like.
Was that you know, you hate me,I hate you, and that's about it
.
Until one day I can't reallyexplain it.
I just felt it.
(13:39):
I guess, if you want to call itthat, that he loved me, that I
was his son, and that started tochange so much of the way that
I saw him and I saw myself.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So, no wait, did you?
What changed your life?
Had you gotten married at thispoint?
Were you starting a new job, orwas this right after the police
department?
Or how long after you left?
And you, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Just a little while after the conviction, which took
a couple months to go throughcourt, and even that was a
process, going to court and evenseeing people that I knew and
just being on that side of thefence and everything like that.
But a little bit after was whenthings started to change.
I wish I could tell you that itwas like an immediate one and
(14:26):
done thing, but it was just agradual process of me realizing
God's love.
For me it was two yearsafterwards was when I got
married.
You know it started out greatand stuff.
But then you know, here andthere I'd have, I'd mess up, I'd
(14:50):
start drinking again.
You know I had stopped it forthe most part and I'll never
forget that when you're drinking, you're living the crazy life
with it.
You're in the bars.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You're not just sitting in a corner drinking out
of a paper bag.
You're out, partying and livingthe life.
Right, but you're married andyou shouldn't be living.
You should be home with yourwife, not out in the bars and
all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Right, yeah, and there was one day I'll never
forget I was at the ABC storeand I had the bottle in my hand
waiting in line to pay and Ijust got that.
I don't know what you want tocall it, but that feeling that
you're a son and it really itkind of like changed my mindset
(15:31):
of like.
Is this how a son acts?
Is this what a son does?
Are these the decisions that ason makes?
You know, my whole life I hadtried to be a or, growing up
anyway, tried to be like a goodChristian and I thought that,
you know, it was almost like ahigh score game.
Like the better that you do, thehigher you are up on this totem
(15:52):
pole and at the top is thepastor and God hears him.
But to the rest of us it's likeyou know.
But then I realized what I hadalready known is that I don't
get to God.
As God came to me.
You know he sent Jesus to us toknow that it was more than just
I'm, more than just a Christian.
(16:13):
I'm a son, and I don't know ifthat makes any sense to anybody,
son, and I don't know if thatmakes any sense to anybody, but
to me it just.
It makes things clear orclearer in my head of I'm not a
good or bad Christian, I'm a son, and the more that I can accept
who my father is and who I am,it'll just kind of like take
care of itself type of thing.
(16:34):
It's not so much of me strivingto get to Him, it's realizing
that he came to me and theimplications of what that means.
So that he came to me.
You know, one of our versesthat we use all the time is
Romans 5.8, is that even whilewe were yet still sinners, god
demonstrated His love for us.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So Jesus came to you while you had a messed up life
messed up career, messed upfamily life in terms of what
you're doing, messed up socialcircle.
You'd lost all your policefriends.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I know pretty fast, right, yeah, immediately.
They're like you're not one ofus anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, that's right, it's like flipping a switch man,
it is Like, immediately it is.
You might keep one you mightkeep, one that will take your
calls.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
The rest of them.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
They're ready to roll right, yep, so you've got all
that, and the thing that hitsyou is while buying a bottle of
liquor is it's like you hear theLord say you're my son.
You're a son of God.
Is what you're really sayingright.
And that's the thing thatbreaks the cycle or starts to
break the cycle.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
It definitely started to break the cycle.
Yeah, now let's be clear.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Did it happen?
That moment, the thing youdropped the bottle walked out of
there.
Never again.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I did put the bottle back and I walked out and I'd
like to say that I never took adrink again, but that's not the
case.
But it was definitely theturning point, the uh, what
started to to change my mind.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
you know it's a confusion a lot of people have
about stopping stuff in ourlives is that it's going to stop
.
You know, we'll hear thosestories where a guy says, yeah,
this happened, I'm done right.
But if you look at it, most ofthe things in life we repeat I
mean we all are angry, we gossip, we think the wrong thoughts,
so on.
Those are some of the things,and so what you're doing is is
what I think the lord is doingwith you, which was, uh, slowly,
(18:24):
uh lowering it and theneventually eradicating it right,
yeah, right, that's exactlyright.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
So how much longer do ?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
you think you were messing around drinking and and
I'd say about another year or so, Another year where you'd have
on and off.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Right, right.
And another time this happenedto me, where I started drinking
again and it just got out ofcontrol and I found myself in
the same situation in my car,didn't know where I was, and I
hear a knock on my window andimmediately you know, I think,
(19:00):
man, this is the police againI'm.
You know this is all going tohappen all over again, but it
wasn't the police.
I almost wish it was.
Yeah, because who it was was myfamily.
I expected, obviously, you know, know, the worst kind of
response, the worst type of uh,rejection and yeah, everything
(19:24):
like that you figured they weredone yeah your wife was done
with you.
You figure at that moment, youknow, and I'm not going to say
there wasn't any hard timesafter that or uh, rightfully so
anger and and whatnot but uh, uh, but there was forgiveness and
it was kind of at that momentwhere I realized, man, I don't
(19:45):
deserve this, I deserve theabsolute worst.
My actions, my decisionstotally qualify me for not
having any of this, but sheforgave me.
But she forgave me and it waskind of at that moment where I
started to see reallyunderstanding God's forgiveness
(20:08):
for us when it's somethingtotally not deserved, it's not
something that you earn.
You know, john 3.16 doesn't sayfor the world so earned and
deserved Jesus that God had tosend him.
It was that God so loved theworld that he gave.
And when I could kind of see,like that tangible experience of
(20:34):
this is what forgiveness is.
It's something that I don'tabsolutely deserve at all, but
something that she decided togive to me or whatever, and
accepting that was life-changing, it really was and
life-changing.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So your marriage gets restored slowly, yeah.
Your drinking goes away slowly,yeah.
Now, how long has it been nowsince you had a drink?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh wow, a couple years, six years something like
that yeah, and you've beenmarried.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
How long?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
now Eight years.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And you have a little girl.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, how old she's?
Four, four Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
All these things come together Drink, it's gone.
What?
And now you're doing what.
What are you doing for a job?
What do you?
What do you do?
How are you spending your time?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
So I uh with you, yeah with uh the church, with
boost others.
Um, it's an amazing ministryreaching people at their lowest
points and, uh, sharing the loveof god with them, uh, being a
light in that dark time.
Uh, we, we serve families thatare going through kids with
cancer, kids who have beenphysically and sexually abused,
and even parents that have ahistory of that and then finding
(21:49):
out that happened now to theirkids and stuff.
So there's kind of generationaltrauma going on that we get to
be a light in that dark time tothem.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Tell us story, give us one story.
Somebody that you uh desperatesituation, tell us what
situation was.
And in this job you get.
It's almost like the policedepartment.
You get different calls everyday yeah you get a crisis four
crisis a day or two crisis a dayor six crisis, whatever it is
and you get those in becausesocial workers at the hospitals
and I'll send them to you, okay,so you get those.
(22:23):
Then when get those, you'll gojust like when you're a
policeman you get a call and yourespond to the call, right,
right.
So when you get there, what'sthe toughest one you've been on?
What do you think has been thetoughest call?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Wow, there's been several.
You know, I think the worstthing that could ever happen to
you something happening to yourkid um, I know, when my daughter
was born, it's like people tellyou but you don't really
understand, uh, that love thatyou can have for a child, yeah,
um, and and I relate that somuch to how our father loves us
(22:56):
as his kids.
But you know, not too long agowe had a 13 month old and I was
with the parents through thatwhole thing, through that whole
process.
Just yesterday I was with a momwho had been prostituted by her
parents and then she just foundout now that her 11-year-old
had been abused sexually by afamily member too and then
(23:23):
became suicidal and everything Alittle 11-year-old.
Yeah, you know, there's so manysad stories moms that find out
that one child was abusinganother child.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
In these cases, you're getting, you're getting
from the social workers andyou're filling a physical need.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
But you're also able in most cases not always, but in
most cases to also fillspiritual need yeah and and
what's the message?
What's similarity between you?
At your lowest point, you knowthat car, when the knock on the
door, knock on the window, orthis mom that just found out
this horrible thing, that'shorrible truth.
What's, what's the similaritythere?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
you know, there's a verse in there's a couple verses
that god is close to thebrokenhearted, and one in Romans
that says it's the goodness ofGod that leads to repentance.
In my case it was that it wasseeing the goodness of God
through my family and throughhim that really changed my way
(24:22):
of thinking, that really changedme.
The Bible says a man thinks inhis heart.
So is he so?
Once I started changing the wayI thought it started to show in
the way that I was.
But with these families it's alittle bit different.
It's something that happened tothem, it's a sickness, it's an
abuse or something like that.
But I think the truth stillremains that a lot of times you
(24:46):
know you want to blame God forthese things, or God, why did
you do this to my family?
Or why did you?
You know?
But Jesus said in John 10, 10,that the enemy came to steal,
kill and destroy, but I camethat you may have life and have
it more abundantly.
And even in these situations,in the Psalms it says that even
(25:06):
in the valley of the shadow ofdeath he's with us and starting
to see little by little, even inthose dark times, just some of
the light of God's goodness.
Even in those situations, evenin the storms, he's still with
us and that there's nothing thatcould ever separate us from His
love, that he promises to bethere with us throughout those
(25:28):
situations.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And you still feel confident about that.
After all this torture peoplego through and all the stuff
you've had happen in your ownlife, you still feel sure about
that, that God's love is real.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah, and the one verse that really, really,
really changed my life and thatgives me that surety is in John
17.
It's Jesus' prayer right beforehe gets arrested to be
crucified.
It's not the prayer inGethsemane, but it's right prior
to that.
And in verse 20, he's prayingfor his disciples.
(25:58):
But then, in verse 20, he saysI pray not for these alone,
talking about those 12.
I pray also for those who willbelieve in me through their
words.
So he's praying for believers,he's praying for people that
will believe in him.
And in verse 23,.
Again, this is his prayer forus, because we believe in him.
And I think it's so amazingthat Jesus prayed for us, for me
(26:22):
, for you, and he continues todo so.
But even while he was here onearth, even in that time, that's
what he was thinking about.
It's just incredible to me.
But, in verse 23,.
He says I in them and you in me.
So he's talking to God, theFather, saying he's in Him and
he's in us, that they may bemade perfect in one, that the
(26:45):
world may know that you havesent me and have loved them as
you have loved me.
And that verse forever changedmy life.
To know that I grew up inchurch and I've never heard that
verse ever, to know that Jesushimself said that God loves us
as he loves him, was too good tobe true.
(27:05):
I didn't accept it at first.
You know there's no way.
I'm here and I got to workmyself up to get to, you know.
But whether I feel it or not,whether I, you know, whether
circumstances or life tells mesomething different, I can be
sure in what Jesus said.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And you share that with the families now, that same
idea that Christ really lovedthem.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think your conviction, your commitment that
the Lord has given you by yougoing through all this trouble,
has gotten you to a place thathe could prepare you to be used
more than ever.
So you're a blessing.
You're a blessing.
It's a story of redemption.
It's a story of what God can dowith anyone.
Absolutely, and how he canreach us, no matter where we are
.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, I'm definitely not.
I didn't qualify myself to doany of this man join a crowd.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
God qualified you through hislove and his mercy, absolutely.
Welcome to the Cops, criminals and Christ podcast,
where we will hear interestingstories and unique perspectives
about the work of cops, theworld of criminals and how faith
plays a role in the lives ofboth.
Dale Sutherland was anundercover cop and a pastor for
many years and will shareinteresting stories and
perspectives and interviewguests.
(00:22):
I'm your host, his daughterKristen Kru.
Come join us to learn moreabout these powerful forces and
how they shape the lives ofpeople just like you.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So listen.
Today we've got on the podcasta guy who grew up as a Christian
ended up a drunk, ended upgetting arrested and yet he was
a policeman and Christ totallychanged life.
Now he's a minister.
Can you believe it?
You got to come and hear thisstory today.
What was your lowest pointwhere you knew things couldn't
(00:55):
continue the way they were?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
When I woke up in my car didn't know where I was and
I hear a knock on the window andit was a surprise to see who it
was.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That was the end of a long road.
Yeah, so tell me, tell us yougrew up.
How, where'd you grow up?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I grew up here in Northern Virginia.
I was actually born at FairfaxHospital, which is oh, really, I
didn't know that yeah.
It's so cool that I get toserve there now.
Yeah Hospital which is, ohreally, I didn't know that.
Yeah, it's so cool that I getto serve there now.
Yeah, but I grew up here inthis area.
I grew up in church.
My family was Christian, so Iwas Christian.
I'd like to say that I was asecondhand Christian, yeah, yeah
(01:37):
.
Yeah, it's because I went tochurch, because my family went
to church, sure, but I neverkind of really developed that
one-on-one relationship with him.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You'd been around church, around Christians, your
whole life.
And when you got out, what didyou want to do with your life?
What did you think you wantedto do when you got out of high
school or whatever?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
My dream was to be in law enforcement, was to be, a
police officer and when I was 20, I got hired.
I had to wait a little bit togo through the academy to turn
21.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
What police department?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
With Prince William, prince William County Police.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, that's a county that's a few, maybe a half hour
from DC and it's a real mix.
You enjoyed it.
You liked being in the police.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I loved it.
It was my dream come true.
It was something that I wantedto do, since I was a kid, um,
and you were a policeman.
How long?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
uh, for about a little over three years a little
over three years, so you'regoing along your police career.
Grew up in a christian home.
What are we doing a podcastabout?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
I mean, there's this sounds like a nice little life.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
What's what's the deal?
What ended your police career?
Why'd you stop If you loved itso much?
What?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
happened Myself.
Yeah, yeah, I thought I hadbuilt a pretty good life for
myself, but I realized that itwasn't.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Why?
What happened that you had toleave the police department?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I guess backtracking a little bit just to give a
little bit of the back story.
I grew up in church, right, butwhen I was like 16, 17,
something happened with thepastor and my family and stuff
and it kind of pushed me awayfrom that For my mistake.
I was looking at man, I wasn'tlooking at God, and I thought
(03:23):
that the pastor was like theclosest thing to God.
I thought he was our kind ofrepresent representative of of
who God was.
And when I kind of saw how heuh had been acting towards my
family and I during a really,really difficult time in our
lives, I was like, if this ishow God is, this is not what I
want to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
And uh.
So when I was 20 years old,like I said, I applied, got
hired, was in police work, but Istarted ever since I was 18, I
moved out and kind of living onmy own terms.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Can you say that like social drinking, partying, that
kind of stuff?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah it started out that way anyway, but then it
really became uh an addiction.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
It became a problem for me even before you joined
the police department or moreafter uh well, once I turned 21
was when I could drink uhlegally whatever I would drink
before that you know that Icould access it at all times.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
But once I was 21, which was right when I was
becoming a police officer, Istarted to drink more often,
more often.
It became more than just asocial thing, or on the weekends
or whatever, and it became adaily thing.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
You were drinking daily while being the police.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And were you drinking on duty?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Uh, not on duty, no, but there were, when I was a
policeman in DC there's lots ofdrinking on duty as well as off
duty Not me, but the other guysI worked with wasn't unusual.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So the so for you.
You had the uh, you starteddrinking and it increased more
and more.
So and it increased more andmore.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So what was?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
your favorite drink.
What did you drink?
The?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
most Anything, really .
I mean I stayed away from beerbut liquor rum, vodka, yeah,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
And so you're drinking like this.
You're going out, you'regetting farther from God too, or
are you still interestedspiritually?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I had zero interest spiritually.
I thought God wanted nothing todo with me and god wanted
nothing to do with me and Iwanted nothing to do with him.
And that was our you knowrelationship, if you want to
call it that yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
So you kept drinking and you ended up.
Did you ever get in trouble atthe police department?
Did you ever get?
Did anybody ever find out?
Did the two you know mess upeach other?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
yes, um, so, prior to any legal trouble happening, um
, a couple people that I workedwith uh, talked to the
higher-ups like they saw the theproblem that I had and they
tried to do like counseling andwhatever for me and stuff, but I
just couldn't care so they sentyou some guys, snitched on you
(06:02):
yeah, yeah, yeah and.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And then you got in trouble with the bosses and they
got you some counseling andsaid hey, man, you got to stop
drinking.
Yeah, did you stop drinking?
Did you listen to the bosses?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Not at all, not at all.
I remember we actually went ona trip to a IACP conference in.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Philly, it's International Association of
Chiefs of Police.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
And they took me with them and stuff.
And you know we went partyingand stuff like that too.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
So it was like you know, I don't know the bosses
were there and they weredrinking like you were drinking
exactly, yeah, so it wasn't socompelling of a message, right
yeah and I'll never forget oneuh captain, who, who me?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
he was like you.
Got a badge in your pocket, sowho's going to stop you?
Just keep going.
That was kind of the mentalityor the mindset or whatever,
until I did get stopped, until Idid get in trouble.
I was a police officer and Igot arrested for DUI.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Wait a second now, just police-wise, we don't do
that kind of thing.
We try not to arrest uh otherpolice officers yeah and uh,
certainly for major offenses,yes, but for drinking and
driving or other things likethat, I don't think you'll find
a policeman that would normallyarrest, unless, uh, they get
back in their car.
(07:23):
Generally we try to get themout of the car and send them
home, take them home, evenwhatever.
How did this happen?
Why did you end up gettinglocked up?
Did you take a swing at theofficer or something, or what
did you do?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I was asleep in my car, oh okay, and I was in a
parking lot and I hear a knockon my window and I wake up.
I see who it is and he asked meto step out of the car like
normal and I I thought the samething.
I was like he's not gonna doanything or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
you know call me a taxi, state police or or county
local.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Yeah, did you know the guy I didn't know him, you
know, um, it was outside of myjurisdiction.
Yeah, so he's putting methrough the test and I'm
starting to realize, like, is hereally trying to do this to me,
or whatever?
At that point, you know, theyasked you to blow and I refused,
so he arrested me.
That was it.
Yeah, yep, so in Virginia, infairness.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
You have this what do you call it.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
The BAC.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Breathless.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
BAC yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So you, you breathe into it.
You just had to blow there, butyou were going to blow the
station at the whole.
Okay, so if you refuse, youlose your lights for six months
and you have to get arrested,correct?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Um, so that was your scenario.
You figured because the rule isa lot of guys say it's better
to not do that because you getum, otherwise it gets.
The number of the blood alcoholcontent is the concern.
If it's too high, right, that'sthe idea.
Okay, so that's what you meanwhen you say didn't blow right,
so you did.
You didn't do that and you knew, boom, that's it.
He had no option at that point.
He's got to lock you up, orright um, so okay, so he locked
(08:58):
you up so can you tell himyou're the police?
Yeah, yeah and what did he say?
Speaker 3 (09:03):
you remember that, give me the scolding of like you
know.
Yeah, you should know better,exactly, and he's right, he
should know better.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
We don't want policemen out drinking and
driving.
That's right.
That's a bad idea.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
So you get arrested and you end up going to the
station.
What jurisdiction you getarrested in?
Speaker 3 (09:21):
In Alexandria, in Alexandria, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So what does it feel like when you're in handcuffs
now and you're over at thepolice station?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, it was surreal being on the other side of it.
You know I'd been in handcuffsa thousand times in the academy
for practice and everything likethat, but this time it was real
, you know, and I remember themtaking my picture and going into
the to the cell or whatever andthinking like man, how did I
(09:47):
get here?
But you know, not even that wasmy rock bottom.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, that had to be your lowest point to a great
degree, at least to that pointin your life.
I mean, you're there locked upand you guys have to picture
this in the where he would havegone into would have been a
bunch of different criminalssitting there, a bunch of guys
locked up.
One could be locked up formurder, one could be locked up
for spitting on the sidewalk,but everybody's locked up there.
Was it a night, I mean late atnight, so you got drunks and
(10:13):
people hollering and all that,and you're used to controlling
that crowd right now you're oneof the crowd now I'm one of the
crowd exactly yeah, and thenputting a cell too, yeah and
then did you get anypreferential treatment.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
When you got there, anybody say hey, come on man,
he's a police.
Let's, let's take him not no,vip, no no I was just yeah and
uh guy okay, I had to wait tillmorning and they called my
supervisor.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Wow, my supervisor came in.
They made you wait till morningtoo.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
My supervisor came and picked me up and that was a
ride I'll never forget.
Yeah, a lot of silence, but alot of— when I was a sergeant,
I've gone to a few policestations to pick up officers.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's unpleasant, yeah it's unpleasant
.
Yeah, unpleasant for them.
So that feels like you're nowon your way back.
You're riding with the sergeantin the car.
Does it hit you that this showmight be over, that you might
lose your job?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Yeah, that was my mindset at that time.
But just to be honest with you,later that night I was out
doing the same thing again.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
No.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
The same night, yep, after getting locked up and
being out of jail, and how muchyou drinking in a day?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Ivan, what are you drinking Too much?
Yeah, it was.
Every day was a just to drinkto get blacked out?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I mean, it wasn't like Really All the way to
blacked out.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, you weren't happy, that was just a everyday
thing for me.
Jeez, yeah, that's a lot.
So anyway, I went and picked upmy car from the, from the tow
lot, and went and bought abottle and went out and doing it
again.
I just I was that lost, Ididn't care.
Were you worried about losingyour job?
I was to an extent, but I justI can't explain it to you I just
didn't care didn't think yeah,okay, so now you're that lasts
(12:03):
how long?
Speaker 2 (12:03):
six months or something, before they actually
fire you, or how long?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
yeah, uh, they kept me on for a little while.
Uh, like you know, they took uhmy badge and everything like
that.
So I was just working doingpaperwork and stuff like that,
but uh, embarrassing yeah, yeah,very embarrassing very
embarrassing, um, but you know,even throughout all that time,
uh, like I said, I just keptdoing it.
(12:29):
You know, I I got one dui, butI really should have got a
thousand of them really yeah,because you kept driving too
yeah, oh no really
Speaker 2 (12:37):
yeah yeah, even knowing that second and third
you, you actually go to jail.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And that didn't stop you.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It didn't stop me, so jail didn't stop you.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
All your parents' disappointment didn't stop you
Losing your job, didn't stop you.
What's going on?
Why are you sitting heredifferent today?
Why did you stop drinking?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
The real answer to that?
The only answer, is God.
During that time, I hadobviously ruined a lot of
relationships in my life.
I was even engaged at that timeto get married and that ended.
I ruined a lot of relationshipswith my family, my parents, my
brothers, sister.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
It was not a good time.
Everybody was trying to helpyou.
Everybody was trying to get youto stop.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
But I just rejected the help.
I didn't want the help.
Like I said from the beginning,that's what I thought my
relationship with God was like.
Was that you know, you hate me,I hate you, and that's about it
.
Until one day I can't reallyexplain it.
I just felt it.
(13:39):
I guess, if you want to call itthat, that he loved me, that I
was his son, and that started tochange so much of the way that
I saw him and I saw myself.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So, no wait, did you?
What changed your life?
Had you gotten married at thispoint?
Were you starting a new job, orwas this right after the police
department?
Or how long after you left?
And you, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Just a little while after the conviction, which took
a couple months to go throughcourt, and even that was a
process, going to court and evenseeing people that I knew and
just being on that side of thefence and everything like that.
But a little bit after was whenthings started to change.
I wish I could tell you that itwas like an immediate one and
(14:26):
done thing, but it was just agradual process of me realizing
God's love.
For me it was two yearsafterwards was when I got
married.
You know it started out greatand stuff.
But then you know, here andthere I'd have, I'd mess up, I'd
(14:50):
start drinking again.
You know I had stopped it forthe most part and I'll never
forget that when you're drinking, you're living the crazy life
with it.
You're in the bars.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
You're not just sitting in a corner drinking out
of a paper bag.
You're out, partying and livingthe life.
Right, but you're married andyou shouldn't be living.
You should be home with yourwife, not out in the bars and
all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Right, yeah, and there was one day I'll never
forget I was at the ABC storeand I had the bottle in my hand
waiting in line to pay and Ijust got that.
I don't know what you want tocall it, but that feeling that
you're a son and it really itkind of like changed my mindset
(15:31):
of like.
Is this how a son acts?
Is this what a son does?
Are these the decisions that ason makes?
You know, my whole life I hadtried to be a or, growing up
anyway, tried to be like a goodChristian and I thought that,
you know, it was almost like ahigh score game.
Like the better that you do, thehigher you are up on this totem
(15:52):
pole and at the top is thepastor and God hears him.
But to the rest of us it's likeyou know.
But then I realized what I hadalready known is that I don't
get to God.
As God came to me.
You know he sent Jesus to us toknow that it was more than just
I'm, more than just a Christian.
(16:13):
I'm a son, and I don't know ifthat makes any sense to anybody,
son, and I don't know if thatmakes any sense to anybody, but
to me it just.
It makes things clear orclearer in my head of I'm not a
good or bad Christian, I'm a son, and the more that I can accept
who my father is and who I am,it'll just kind of like take
care of itself type of thing.
(16:34):
It's not so much of me strivingto get to Him, it's realizing
that he came to me and theimplications of what that means.
So that he came to me.
You know, one of our versesthat we use all the time is
Romans 5.8, is that even whilewe were yet still sinners, god
demonstrated His love for us.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
So Jesus came to you while you had a messed up life
messed up career, messed upfamily life in terms of what
you're doing, messed up socialcircle.
You'd lost all your policefriends.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I know pretty fast, right, yeah, immediately.
They're like you're not one ofus anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, that's right, it's like flipping a switch man,
it is Like, immediately it is.
You might keep one you mightkeep, one that will take your
calls.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
The rest of them.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
They're ready to roll right, yep, so you've got all
that, and the thing that hitsyou is while buying a bottle of
liquor is it's like you hear theLord say you're my son.
You're a son of God.
Is what you're really sayingright.
And that's the thing thatbreaks the cycle or starts to
break the cycle.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
It definitely started to break the cycle.
Yeah, now let's be clear.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Did it happen?
That moment, the thing youdropped the bottle walked out of
there.
Never again.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I did put the bottle back and I walked out and I'd
like to say that I never took adrink again, but that's not the
case.
But it was definitely theturning point, the uh, what
started to to change my mind.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
you know it's a confusion a lot of people have
about stopping stuff in ourlives is that it's going to stop
.
You know, we'll hear thosestories where a guy says, yeah,
this happened, I'm done right.
But if you look at it, most ofthe things in life we repeat I
mean we all are angry, we gossip, we think the wrong thoughts,
so on.
Those are some of the things,and so what you're doing is is
what I think the lord is doingwith you, which was, uh, slowly,
(18:24):
uh lowering it and theneventually eradicating it right,
yeah, right, that's exactlyright.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
So how much longer do ?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
you think you were messing around drinking and and
I'd say about another year or so, Another year where you'd have
on and off.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Right, right.
And another time this happenedto me, where I started drinking
again and it just got out ofcontrol and I found myself in
the same situation in my car,didn't know where I was, and I
hear a knock on my window andimmediately you know, I think,
(19:00):
man, this is the police againI'm.
You know this is all going tohappen all over again, but it
wasn't the police.
I almost wish it was.
Yeah, because who it was was myfamily.
I expected, obviously, you know, know, the worst kind of
response, the worst type of uh,rejection and yeah, everything
(19:24):
like that you figured they weredone yeah your wife was done
with you.
You figure at that moment, youknow, and I'm not going to say
there wasn't any hard timesafter that or uh, rightfully so
anger and and whatnot but uh, uh, but there was forgiveness and
it was kind of at that momentwhere I realized, man, I don't
(19:45):
deserve this, I deserve theabsolute worst.
My actions, my decisionstotally qualify me for not
having any of this, but sheforgave me.
But she forgave me and it waskind of at that moment where I
started to see reallyunderstanding God's forgiveness
(20:08):
for us when it's somethingtotally not deserved, it's not
something that you earn.
You know, john 3.16 doesn't sayfor the world so earned and
deserved Jesus that God had tosend him.
It was that God so loved theworld that he gave.
And when I could kind of see,like that tangible experience of
(20:34):
this is what forgiveness is.
It's something that I don'tabsolutely deserve at all, but
something that she decided togive to me or whatever, and
accepting that was life-changing, it really was and
life-changing.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So your marriage gets restored slowly, yeah.
Your drinking goes away slowly,yeah.
Now, how long has it been nowsince you had a drink?
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Oh wow, a couple years, six years something like
that yeah, and you've beenmarried.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
How long?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
now Eight years.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And you have a little girl.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, how old she's?
Four, four Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
All these things come together Drink, it's gone.
What?
And now you're doing what.
What are you doing for a job?
What do you?
What do you do?
How are you spending your time?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
So I uh with you, yeah with uh the church, with
boost others.
Um, it's an amazing ministryreaching people at their lowest
points and, uh, sharing the loveof god with them, uh, being a
light in that dark time.
Uh, we, we serve families thatare going through kids with
cancer, kids who have beenphysically and sexually abused,
and even parents that have ahistory of that and then finding
(21:49):
out that happened now to theirkids and stuff.
So there's kind of generationaltrauma going on that we get to
be a light in that dark time tothem.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Tell us story, give us one story.
Somebody that you uh desperatesituation, tell us what
situation was.
And in this job you get.
It's almost like the policedepartment.
You get different calls everyday yeah you get a crisis four
crisis a day or two crisis a dayor six crisis, whatever it is
and you get those in becausesocial workers at the hospitals
and I'll send them to you, okay,so you get those.
(22:23):
Then when get those, you'll gojust like when you're a
policeman you get a call and yourespond to the call, right,
right.
So when you get there, what'sthe toughest one you've been on?
What do you think has been thetoughest call?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Wow, there's been several.
You know, I think the worstthing that could ever happen to
you something happening to yourkid um, I know, when my daughter
was born, it's like people tellyou but you don't really
understand, uh, that love thatyou can have for a child, yeah,
um, and and I relate that somuch to how our father loves us
(22:56):
as his kids.
But you know, not too long agowe had a 13 month old and I was
with the parents through thatwhole thing, through that whole
process.
Just yesterday I was with a momwho had been prostituted by her
parents and then she just foundout now that her 11-year-old
had been abused sexually by afamily member too and then
(23:23):
became suicidal and everything Alittle 11-year-old.
Yeah, you know, there's so manysad stories moms that find out
that one child was abusinganother child.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
In these cases, you're getting, you're getting
from the social workers andyou're filling a physical need.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
But you're also able in most cases not always, but in
most cases to also fillspiritual need yeah and and
what's the message?
What's similarity between you?
At your lowest point, you knowthat car, when the knock on the
door, knock on the window, orthis mom that just found out
this horrible thing, that'shorrible truth.
What's, what's the similaritythere?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
you know, there's a verse in there's a couple verses
that god is close to thebrokenhearted, and one in Romans
that says it's the goodness ofGod that leads to repentance.
In my case it was that it wasseeing the goodness of God
through my family and throughhim that really changed my way
(24:22):
of thinking, that really changedme.
The Bible says a man thinks inhis heart.
So is he so?
Once I started changing the wayI thought it started to show in
the way that I was.
But with these families it's alittle bit different.
It's something that happened tothem, it's a sickness, it's an
abuse or something like that.
But I think the truth stillremains that a lot of times you
(24:46):
know you want to blame God forthese things, or God, why did
you do this to my family?
Or why did you?
You know?
But Jesus said in John 10, 10,that the enemy came to steal,
kill and destroy, but I camethat you may have life and have
it more abundantly.
And even in these situations,in the Psalms it says that even
(25:06):
in the valley of the shadow ofdeath he's with us and starting
to see little by little, even inthose dark times, just some of
the light of God's goodness.
Even in those situations, evenin the storms, he's still with
us and that there's nothing thatcould ever separate us from His
love, that he promises to bethere with us throughout those
(25:28):
situations.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
And you still feel confident about that.
After all this torture peoplego through and all the stuff
you've had happen in your ownlife, you still feel sure about
that, that God's love is real.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yeah, and the one verse that really, really,
really changed my life and thatgives me that surety is in John
17.
It's Jesus' prayer right beforehe gets arrested to be
crucified.
It's not the prayer inGethsemane, but it's right prior
to that.
And in verse 20, he's prayingfor his disciples.
(25:58):
But then, in verse 20, he saysI pray not for these alone,
talking about those 12.
I pray also for those who willbelieve in me through their
words.
So he's praying for believers,he's praying for people that
will believe in him.
And in verse 23,.
Again, this is his prayer forus, because we believe in him.
And I think it's so amazingthat Jesus prayed for us, for me
(26:22):
, for you, and he continues todo so.
But even while he was here onearth, even in that time, that's
what he was thinking about.
It's just incredible to me.
But, in verse 23,.
He says I in them and you in me.
So he's talking to God, theFather, saying he's in Him and
he's in us, that they may bemade perfect in one, that the
(26:45):
world may know that you havesent me and have loved them as
you have loved me.
And that verse forever changedmy life.
To know that I grew up inchurch and I've never heard that
verse ever, to know that Jesushimself said that God loves us
as he loves him, was too good tobe true.
(27:05):
I didn't accept it at first.
You know there's no way.
I'm here and I got to workmyself up to get to, you know.
But whether I feel it or not,whether I, you know, whether
circumstances or life tells mesomething different, I can be
sure in what Jesus said.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And you share that with the families now, that same
idea that Christ really lovedthem.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I think your conviction, your commitment that
the Lord has given you by yougoing through all this trouble,
has gotten you to a place thathe could prepare you to be used
more than ever.
So you're a blessing.
You're a blessing.
It's a story of redemption.
It's a story of what God can dowith anyone.
Absolutely, and how he canreach us, no matter where we are
.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, I'm definitely not.
I didn't qualify myself to doany of this man join a crowd.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's great.
God qualified you through hislove and his mercy, absolutely.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.