March 24, 2025 • 46 mins
Succession planning creates a complex challenge when you discover a talented team member lacks the critical skills needed to advance despite their strong desire to move up.
• Valuable team members may excel in many areas but struggle with core competencies needed for advancement
• Breaking problems into smaller components can help develop skills, but some abilities like creative thinking are difficult to train
• Lateral moves can sometimes provide faster advancement opportunities than struggling in the wrong role
• Effective managers must invest significant time creating growth opportunities tailored to individual team members
• Honest conversations about career paths, though difficult, demonstrate care for employees' long-term success
• Building teams that can function without you is a sign of leadership success
• Corporate clawbacks, like demanding repayment of $1,500 in vacation pay due to HR error, demonstrate misplaced priorities
If you enjoy our podcast, please consider supporting us through our link tree in the show notes. Your contributions help keep the show running and might even help us purchase Pepsi Man for our first livestream!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
been a while since you heard that little beaver,
isn't it?
This is a bear.
I don't think we everdetermined what it is I have no
idea.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Guess who's back?
Who's back movements?
Who's that clarky, clark andthe funky bunch?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
oh, clarky, clark.
I.
I'm sorry, I I forgot.
I forgot.
Welcome back, clark, it's beena minute.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's been too long.
I had a little bit of apersonal thing happen and I've
been out for a couple weeks.
I've been off the game, but wehave had some awesome podcasts
with Sarah and then Alex inbetween.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So I feel like.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Sarah and.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Alex have been blowing up the Discord.
Yeah, they're the new hosts.
I don't.
They don't need us anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I leave and we don't even host this anymore.
We're not even part of this.
The community has just takenoff.
All it took was me being gone.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I am quite certain we could just hand over the reins
of this to Sarah and Alex andthey would be fine.
They'd be fine, we shouldtotally.
The listeners might not be, butyeah, uh, I think they could
run uh, an infinite podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I love that, yeah, honestly, you know what's a
really cool feeling.
So I used to have, uh, back inthe day I'm going to my
corporate career, I used to beworried about job security.
I used to be like, if I leaveand they don't feel like they're
missing me, like am I reallycontributing?
Am I really, you know, doing agood job?
Because they don't even need me?
And nowadays, as I've grown inmy career, I realized it's so
(01:31):
important that you buildsomething that can scale without
you.
You set your team up forsuccess so it can move on
without you, and so it wasalmost like a proud dad moment
when I saw this thing was justrocking with you and everyone
else and I'm like this isincredible that we built
something that can carry on withor without one of us here.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And so we tested a good lesson.
We tested the waters when I wasjust like, oh sorry, my schedule
won't allow me to do anythingfor a month and you and Restrepo
had to fill in.
I mean, I think it's.
I think it's doable.
I think we've got a good cabalof guests now and like open
invite to people in the disky.
If you want to come on and test, test your might on the pod, we
(02:11):
we willing to, we willing tohear you, and I would absolutely
hand over the reins to any anyof the our previous guests.
They're all apt and ready toyour point.
Though, Like that is something Iam thinking a lot about
(02:36):
recently not handing over thepod Screw that I want to spend.
I agree, my biggest fear is notthe act of passing along, but
it's like the act of I might beinadvertently screwing you over
by bypassing this along to youBecause, like some people, they
can't.
They can't be you, Right,They'll never be able to be you.
But you also can't hinderyourself because only I can be
(03:01):
me.
You know what I'm saying.
You know what I mean oh yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, it's weird right, and it actually so.
This blends so nicely into thetopic, so we can either dive in
oh hey, before we do that, real,quick no before that, real
quick.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Welcome back to Corporate Strategy Podcast.
I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And I'm Clark hey, what's going on Clark, how?
And I'm Clark hey, what's goingon Clark?
How is that not happening?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
yet.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I honestly, like I thought you already did that my
brain would just forget.
I never do it.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I refuse to do it.
I like to linger, I like to letit pop up.
I'm a big fan Like anothertangent.
I love when movies don't do thecredits in the beginning, Like
give me a late, you know, liketitle card.
The later into the movie thetitle card is, the more I'm like
this is good, this is good.
I saw a movie recently Highlyrecommend.
(03:54):
It's called Hundreds of Beavers.
It's very funny.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's a very funny movie.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You don't get the title card until over an hour
into the movie.
It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I feel like there's a point where it's just
inappropriate, like at thatpoint it's like do you even do
it?
Like an hour in is pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I think you can watch it free on YouTube, clark, I
think you would love this movie,just like knowing you, knowing
who you are.
It is a black and white silentfilm made last year about a
woodsman who has to deal withhundreds of beavers.
It is the funniest thing youwill ever see.
I promise you you will love it.
(04:34):
Specifically Like theprotagonist kind of reminds me
of you in a way.
He's scrappy, he's outdoorsy,but he's just, you know, dealing
with those hundreds of beavers.
It's a challenge, great.
Is this a true?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
anyway.
So it's a real, truest story.
The title card literallydoesn't pop for an hour into the
movie.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It's fantastic how do you find these things?
That's that's what I want to do.
I enjoy well, I, I, that's whatI enjoy doing.
I like finding these things, soI find them, I go out looking
for them.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Uh, but my world is just so like so protected.
You know, I'm just like there'slike normie world.
You know where I'm in?
Normie world, like my many areof concern is like sports,
outdoors, work life and even inlife.
I'm not like searching the darkweb for weird things that are
super niche.
I stay pretty surface level.
(05:25):
I feel like you go deep onthese things and you somehow go
out of normie world and intothis land where I don't even
know exists yes, correct.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
well, I and and I don't, I don't live, I don't
operate in normie world period,right, like I don't know what
sports are, I don't know whatlife is outdoors, is for dogs to
go poop, like you know.
It's like all he said.
Like I am, I am sniffing aroundlike a truffle hog, sniffing
for that, that next thing thatjust sparks that joy, and it's
(05:58):
always these, these odd littleindie movies and games.
Just love it, love to Love tofind them, love to experience
them and then love to share themwith folks.
I'm your tester.
Basically I'm saying, hey,hundreds of beavers, this is a
Clark certified banger.
Trust me, you're going to loveit.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I love that for you.
I love this all about.
This is what makes you uniquelyyou, and that's what I love
about people.
Because the people, becausesure, it's the people that get
into these things.
It's like why in the world doyou even know about this?
And it's what makes people sointeresting.
I feel like I'm so boringcompared to awesome people like
you no, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
No, no.
But I mean like, see thatthat's the thing you are.
You are you, but, like for thebiz world, like I don't know how
to do half the crap, you knowhow to do, I would just follow
in your wake and be like fuckboy, he got this Me.
I'm like, nah, I'm too.
I'm too outside the normaloperational model.
(06:56):
I need the normality tofunction, I think, but I can't
do that myself.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think this is why we work so well together and,
honestly, as I think about it,like some of the closest people
in my life are very similar toyou.
They're like the creativethinkers and I'm like the I
don't know like the normalpusher along with things, and
it's like whenever we gettogether, magic happens and I
feel like that's what's so coolabout it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Well and I think that's part of what makes this
podcast interesting is you haveyou have the oddball, and then
you have, like the by the book,and you have to find the middle
ground, because neither worklike neither actually work in
corporate.
If you're too by the book,you'll find yourself stuck in a
rut, and if you're too oddball,you'll find yourself fired.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So, like it's that middle ground, it's right in the
middle ground that gets yousuccess that's what we're trying
to teach you all be thecombination, be right in the
middle of where we are on theoutliers of, and somehow you'll
find success be the odd book.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That's what you got to do.
Stand out, be different, thinkdifferent, think different.
Just do it, though.
Just do it.
Who said?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
that, just do it.
What else?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Pepsi man.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Continue with Pepsi man, please.
I'm never going to stop.
You brought it.
We need to find.
You know.
Our first live stream should beplaying that game.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
We should, absolutely , oh absolutely.
I wonder how much that costs toimport, because I was going to
say I could run it on originalhardware.
But before I commit tosomething too expensive oh my
gosh, it's $190 on eBay.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Oh my gosh are you serious Dead.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Serious PS1, pepsi man.
Sony PlayStation Test at $190.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wow, that's not a crazy investment.
Alright, everybody, donate us acoffee, we'll buy Pepsi man and
we'll live stream it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
For our first live stream.
Hell yeah, I'm down.
I'm so down to clown.
So you had a really good leadin moments ago, but I ruined it.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, you did.
Yeah, you literally justsquandered it.
You always do these incrediblelead ins.
I could feel it was weird.
I could feel it was weird, Icould feel the lead-in happening
and I was like, oh my gosh,this fits so nicely into what I
want to talk about today.
This fits so nicely, this fitsso nicely.
And then you're like nope,we're going to talk about
something completely different.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I felt it.
I felt you were going to do itand I really I kind of want to
be the guy that does the goodlead-ins, so I didn't want you
to have that moment.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You just took it, okay, just stomped it with my
feet.
Well, now, this is a reallyboring intro to what I want to
talk about.
It could have been so naturaland fun, but now it's just
abrupt and in the middle of whatwe're talking about and
awkwardly behind.
Hey, let's skip to the topicnow.
Here it is.
Hey, do you ever Don't you dare, Don't you dare.
(09:41):
I can see when you step backand you got that smile on your
face.
You were cooking something tosay right there.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I was, I was, and I was like you know what?
I'm going to let Clark havethis one.
You couldn't control yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I couldn't I couldn't .
Speaker 1 (09:58):
This is what happens Like we haven't done a pod in so
long.
Like I've got these urges tojust be bad that you couldn't do
in the last two, when we haveguests, I mean well, one of them
was my wife, so I have to be,you know, behaved.
The other one was restrepo andyou know I get worried, like
(10:18):
he's he is smarter than me andlike he can beat me in a battle
of the wit.
So like I can't, I can't comeat him, but you and me, I feel
like we're on equal playingfield and I can just come in
there and I can be a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm that oddball physically, I think alex would
whoop me, so I wouldn't evenattempt so in all he's like a
foot taller than both of usphysically, spiritually.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
We're not in that level, like we just kind of stay
below that level so we're justjust not going to challenge them
.
I know how to pick my battles.
You know I only pick battleswith my consistent podcast
co-host.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
We know, I think we're battling for power.
That's really what it is.
It's like we're neck and neckand I think we're going to be
like that the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Speaking of living life.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You, you know.
Something I've been thinking alot about recently is succession
.
Have you, don't you dare, don'tyou dare.
I'm signing off.
This is it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You can cover it.
Did it, did it done.
Did it welcome back?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
welcome back okay okay, you thought it was gonna
be easy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I thought it was yeah , no, no, we're gonna do this.
We're gonna actually do thetopic.
We were talking aboutsuccession.
This is important.
I'm thinking about that a lottoo.
I've been thinking about who isgoing to follow in my footsteps
.
We actually have to.
I don't know if you've ever hadto do this, and maybe that's
what you were alluding to at thebeginning.
Did you have to put together asuccession plan for your team,
or were you just thinking inyour head I should have a
(11:39):
succession plan?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I might have to, I might have to, I might have to,
I might have to.
And it got me thinking, likeyou know, this is not an insult
to any of my team members butlike none of them have the
specific skill set I have and Iwouldn't, like I don't think any
of them could fill in my shoes.
(12:02):
I say I don't think, but like Idon't want to you know I don't
put them blast here but likepart of the problem is like my
team specifically, I didn't hirepeople like me.
I hired people to fill in thethings that I can't do.
So I have a video person, Ihave a a a copywriter.
I have a community manager.
I have like a field partnermanager.
(12:23):
Like they're not doing my job.
They're doing their job and I'mhelping manage the chaos of
what they do, or trying to helpanyway, but like none of them
can really succeed into my rolebecause they're not solutions
marketers.
Right, like that's, that'sreally difficult.
Like I'm thinking in the backof my mind succession plan is
like do I have to hireexternally?
(12:44):
Like how do I do that?
You know what?
What are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You know, since I'm more inenterprise, like for me, I have
a product management team, right?
So the course, you're like youlike exactly Like I don't hire
people that do different things.
There's other teams that hirethose people to do those things
because that's their domain, butour domain is product
management, digital productmanagement specifically, and so
(13:10):
within that I'm like I hirepeople that should be able to do
what I do one day and reallythe succession for them is like,
basically, we keep on expandingthe challenges for them, you
know, putting them on a harder,more complex project, putting
them in something they've neverdone before, whatever it is, to
see how they kind of adapt andlearn that area, if you will,
(13:31):
and see how they do in thatdifferent kind of environment,
and that kind of helps them growand expand their reach and
understand the business morebroadly, which then gets them
ready for that next level.
And what we're looking to doalong the way is we're
identifying what are those skillsets that makes us good at what
we do at our level and ourleader like what, how does?
How do they look down on us andsay they're being successful
(13:53):
because of X, y and Z?
And so over the years we've hadto define those behaviors
because, to be to be justtransparent, it was totally.
Does it feel like Clark is doinga good job and he's ready for a
promotion.
And it's all about did you getthe right visibility and do you
feel like you're ready?
But feel is so subjective.
And so we've been, our teamshave really been struggling on
(14:14):
like, well, am I doing thethings?
And when they ask us, are youdoing the things, and we say
yeah, I think so.
And like that's not a goodanswer and it doesn't give
someone a good path to say, well, what do I work on then?
Like how do I work?
If you don't feel like I'mready, then what do I need to do
?
And so we've been working overthe years to establish what are
those behaviors that we want tosee at each of the levels.
(14:35):
And once you're exceeding thethings you do at your level, or
doing the things at the nextlevel, then you should be
eligible for promotion, ofcourse, whenever the opportunity
does arise for the need for apromotion.
If that makes sense, can I aska?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
question Please, do you have actual written
guidelines?
Oh, if Clark wants to move tothe next level, clark needs to
do this, this, this and this.
Or is it like to be the nextlevel?
You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it like to be the
next level?
You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
we don't know it's more of the second one to be,
and that's what we'veestablished in the last like,
even just two years of like, andI know because I've gone
through the ranks some of thepeople that are my peers got
hired into this job.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
They didn't work up the ranks to get to the level
that we're at.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And so, like the perspective is different for me,
I was like I had no clue if Iwas doing right things or wrong
things.
I just went through my gut andintuition and what I thought was
important and I just acted theway I.
I thought I should act to getto that level.
But that's like very abstractand not concrete and probably
could have been done a lotbetter or had a lot more
guidance in figuring that out.
So we kind of worked on thattogether to say what are those
(15:48):
actual behaviors of the level,if you will.
So it's like associate productowner, product owner, product
manager, lead product manager,director of product management,
and what are the behaviors thatwe kind of aligned for each of
them that we should see at thatlevel.
And so it actually is.
It's pretty good because then,to your point, even though we're
(16:08):
just doing the second, when wehave our performance reviews we
can say to get to that nextlevel, we want to see this
behavior.
And sometimes in theconversations it's like, well, I
need to give my employee theopportunity to show that
behavior and guide them on howto do that.
So I sometimes have to do thework to say how do I give them
that opportunity?
How do I step out of the way,give them that opportunity so we
(16:29):
can see how they do and I canprovide feedback?
So, basically, even thoughwe're doing the second at the
role level, it gets to the firstat the individual level,
because you can talk at thatspecific level, I guess, or
criteria, which then gets intowell, how do you do it in your
specific role, in your specificarea?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yes, so I get you.
Now.
I see where the I see where thechallenge is arising.
Yeah, dealing with I'm dealingwith very similar things,
interestingly enough.
Yeah, and what's interesting,it's different to startup
because we don't have anythingactually quantified, so it is
all feel, uh, but taking thetraining wheels off, letting
(17:08):
people run and and trying to saylike, yeah, if you, if you were
able to prove that you can be adirector, go prove it.
But not being able to quantifywhat that actually is is
difficult.
But not being able to quantifywhat that actually is is
difficult and it's a personalchallenge.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Absolutely, and I've got a particular dilemma around
succession in this, okay, and Ineed your help.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I need the listening help.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hopefully we can debate this in the Discord.
What if somebody you thoughtcould basically be your
successor You're like, oh man,they've got the right stuff.
They're killing it in XYZ and,as you're trying to grow them to
be like, you're taking my shoes.
Next, what if they just can'tdo it, even though they really
want it?
Is there a point where it'slike you just can't, like it's
(17:56):
just not going to happen for you?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So I'm going to ask some questions, Please.
One how valuable is this personto the company?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Super valuable and they have a lot of strengths
that I don't have, which is whyI think they're so great, but
they're lacking in the strengthsthat I have.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
They're lacking in the strengths that you have or
the strengths that they need todo the job Both that I have,
which are a necessity to do thejob.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
How are you going to?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
keep this person if they can't do this job.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's something I've been going through a lot in my
head of, because they want thatnext level so bad.
We talk about it all the timeand, you know, thanks to this
framework, I'm able to getreally specific.
I'm like here's what we need todo.
You're going to be in thismeeting, this meeting, this
meeting this week, but you havethe opportunity to do it, and
we've been trying for months now.
(18:52):
I'm like, okay, here's anopportunity, let's do it.
Here's an opportunity, let's doit.
And I think where we're gettingreally hung up is on something
that isn't always a supertangible do this, do this, do
this.
Then you can do this, if thatmakes sense.
It's more of I need you to becreative when you're problem
solving, not just you know, hey,give me the timeline, give me
(19:15):
the plan.
It's like I want you tocreatively think out of the box
on this problem and come up withsolutions.
I want you to creatively thinkout of the box on this problem
and come up with solutions.
And that's a hard thing to liketrain someone who is a certain
mindset to think differently.
And it's not something you canreally coach, because each
situation is a little unique.
So how do you coach somebody insomething that kind of is the
(19:35):
type of person you are if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Are you perhaps starting too big like, too big
of tasks, like if you, if yougave them smaller things to be
creative on?
Like this is something Istruggle with, in all honesty,
is when I try and solve bigproblems, it can quickly become
anxiety inducing because I don'thave all the cards, but, like
(20:02):
if I'm starting with somethingsmaller.
So instead of like you know, awhole marketing campaign instead
, it's well, what if I juststart with a thought leadership
blog, write this out, oh, okay,this is pretty good.
I can see how I can take thisand then turn it into something
that we do demand gen emailvideo, whatever, over a six
month period with additional ads.
See how I can take this andthen turn it into something that
we do demand gen email video,whatever over a six-month period
(20:23):
with additional like.
But it it takes me breaking thebig rock into little rocks.
Is it possible that you're juststarting with too big a rock
for this person?
So, like, flex that muscle andexercise this ability it could
be.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's interesting.
I think what's interestingabout the problems.
It's like it's the right sizeof problem for the role that
they're in.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yes For the role they're in currently.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yes For the role they're in currently.
Like they should be able totackle it in the role they're in
currently, but they'restruggling.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So I'm seeing their partners.
I have multiple employees atthis level and I'm seeing their
partners do really well with it,so they're tackling the about
it this way rather than this way, and I think this person, even
(21:25):
though we could break it downinto smaller problem sets those
smaller problem sets are theirteams that are working on those
things and actually doing wellon those smaller problem sets.
So where they are currently,it's like they're not doing
great at the problems that theyshould be doing great at, and if
you were to divide it intosmaller things and give that
opportunity, that's what theirteam's doing, which makes it
even more complex.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So now I'm confused because you said that earlier.
This person is valuable andthey bring a lot to the table,
but it also sounds at the sametime that they're not capable of
doing the role they're in rightnow.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I think in some sense that's yes and in some sense
it's no.
It's like there's areas thatthey're doing really, really
well in, but there's likecritical areas that they're not,
and so their team is making upfor where they're struggling,
which is actually what you'resupposed to do, right?
You're like, if I'm not greatat something, my team makes up
for it, which they do.
But I is actually what you'resupposed to do, right?
(22:26):
You're like, if I'm not great,my team makes up for it, which
they do.
But I think, as a core part ofthis role, to get to that next
level.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You have to be really good at this core competency,
not your team, if that is.
Is this person in the rightrole?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
yeah, you're going where my head.
My head's crossed this path.
It's like I want this person.
This person is valuable to thecompany.
I think they're really smart,smart.
I think they will be good, butmaybe it's not the right role
for them.
Like, maybe they deserve to go.
We should look to move them toa role where they'll be more
successful and able to get tothis level in a different
(22:54):
capacity, because that's wheretheir strong suits lie.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, I'm, I'm in full agreement.
It's live.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm in fullagreement.
Um, the?
I think back to when we haddanny yonkers on the pod, one of
the most influential episodesof my life.
I think back on it often.
If you have not listened to theepisode with danny yonkers
about management, go back andfind it.
I don't know what the number is, but you're going to go back
(23:18):
and you're going to find itbecause it'd be worth your time
to listen to the.
The point he made about his oneteam member who was really great
, but you know he kept trying tolike get them to do more for
the role they were in and thenrealized like it was actually
his failure because he didn'tput them in the right position
to succeed.
Like that sticks in my craw man, like I think about that all
(23:40):
the time.
I think about that with mycurrent team and you know I'm at
a.
I'm at a very interesting jobbecause it's a startup that
wants to be, you know, anenterprise.
So I'm dealing with justabsolute whiplash in the.
Is this content scrappy or isthis content enterprise grade,
right?
And like going back and forthwith my team and upper
(24:02):
management on this all the timeit's it is exhausting, is it is
frustrating, as it is likeexciting.
But I'm always thinking like ismy team just collectively?
Like am I putting them in aposition to succeed, given this
complete variability of this job?
And like it really depends onwhat mode we're in every day.
(24:25):
And that's the solace I takemyself is, like you know, the
company is still figuring outwhat it wants to be, so I can't
say that they're not right forthe role because we don't know
what we are yet.
But in your case, you're in avery stable organization, like
it is very your.
Your job is not going to lookany different next year than it
does today, and what you'redoing next year is going to be
(24:46):
the exact same that we weredoing today.
Obviously different things, butlike the roles and
responsibilities will be thesame.
Mine will not.
Mine won't be the same nextmonth, right?
Like that's the differencebetween where we are.
But I think that you know whatthis person needs, either in
their current role or in theirnext role, and it's going to be
a tricky conversation, but Ithink it sounds like they're a
(25:08):
really good person, but they'renot in the right place for them
to be successful and if you canconvince them like, hey,
actually doing this lateral movetoday means that you can move
up next year, like that'sprobably the development path
they need to be on.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's it's what I'vebeen going back and forth on and
like.
On one hand, it's like youdon't want to lose the great
person but you want the best forthem, to your point.
On going back to like Danny'sconversation, it's like this
person's great in so many waysthey're doing, let's say, 70 ish
percent of what I need them todo really.
They're doing let's say 70-ishpercent of what I need them to
do really, really well, actuallygoing above and beyond in some
of those areas.
But the core, like additional 30percent that I really really
(25:46):
need them to do and what willget them to the next level,
that's not their strong suit.
They're going to have to goback to like ground zero in
order to learn those skills inthe most like the smallest way
possible.
Can they even learn it?
That's the thing is like.
I think there is a point inyour life where it's like you
recognize the type of person youare and I think maybe I think
(26:11):
everybody has the capacity tolearn, but you'd have to put in
a lot of effort, like you'dalmost have to go down to being
like an associate product ownerdemonstrating the behaviors,
working on those really smallmicro problems, finding
solutions, do it for a long timeand then, once you do that for
a long time, you'll probablyhave it and you'll probably
figure it out pretty quick.
But I think it's years, notmonths, away, if that makes
(26:31):
sense, and it's like, on theother hand, you go to another
role that you're doing 90% ofreally, really well.
You can probably get the nextpromotion faster than having to
go around zero and that's likethe hardest thing and like I'd
also be devastated if I lostthis person.
I think they're great in somany ways, but I need to look
(26:52):
out for them of what they needto do to get to that next level,
and that's got to be with theopportunity that I find the hard
thing.
I'm curious, Bruce, what youthink about this.
The hard thing is finding themthat next thing and knowing and
convincing them that, hey, thisis the good, right move for you
because you're going to be ableto get to that next level.
(27:12):
Because I don't know that roleor that competency right, so I
can't confidently say you've gotwhat it takes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So I think it's that classic cowboy saying you can
lead a horse to water, but youcan't make them drink, right?
Like your job is to presentthis option to them and say
listen you, you cowboy.
You're hanging around thisdusty old town, but this town
ain't good for you.
You need to be two towns overin Rockvale.
(27:42):
In Rockvale you can findsuccess.
There's gold in them hills.
Now you can stay here and youwill get shot by bandits, or you
can go to Rockvale and mineyourself some gold.
Partner.
But like, you have to have thatconversation with them and if
they choose to take your advicepower to them, if they say, hey,
(28:09):
I'm gonna hang around thisdusty old town, like things will
play out the way that they playout.
Like if they have not changedthe behavior, if they have not
shown that they're capable ofbeing better, they're going
their CAC is going to quicklydrop Right, Because, like we
know what they want, we knowthey can't get what they want.
You express that to them Likeyou're not going to get this
here.
You just are not unless youdemonstrate these specific
(28:30):
behaviors which you have notdemonstrated.
It's going to be a hardconversation, but like it's a
conversation that has to happen.
And then you say literally thisjob over here, though, like I
fully believe you can findsuccess, but you have to go for
it, you have to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's a really hard conversation.
It's hard to not get like takeit personal.
I think, from their point ofview, like if I was in their
shoes, I feel the same way, likeOK, I have a little bit of
imposter syndrome here.
I'm doing this role.
You know, I've been doing itfor a while.
I thought this was my path andnow you're telling me this is
(29:04):
might not be my path, maybe Ineed to go down a different path
, which feels like a step backand it kind of feels like a
failure.
It's like I can't do the thingsI need to do to get to the next
level.
And I'm trying, and I thinkthey are trying, I think they're
doing, they're trying really,really hard, but it's just not
clicking.
And there's a point where it'sjust like If it's not clicking
(29:26):
in, the opportunity to do it,like you said, at smaller levels
is not easily present, becauseyou need to be operating at a
certain level.
You can't go back to groundzero.
It's hard because you could say, ok, maybe it's, maybe it's a
training thing, maybe we shouldput them in like a training or
something like that, like maybeyou can find the right training
class that'll help them likerealize how to have that
(29:47):
skillset, but finding that islike so hard and then you got to
fund it and then you got to getthem to do it and it's it's
difficult to manage and so toyour point.
it's like the fastest path isprobably finding the position
that truly they can succeed inreally really well, and it'll be
the best thing for them in thelong run, even though it feels
like a little bit of a setbackright now.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It might help if you make a timeline for them too.
Just like a hypothetical Likeyeah, you stay here, you get
trained.
It's looking like X amount ofmonths or years you go here, you
do this.
Yeah, it looks like a setback,but you can get to next level
this much faster than if youhang around Like I think it's.
Unfortunately, there's a littlebit of work on your end to make
(30:32):
this appealing because, like,you don't want this person to
ultimately have this negativelyimpact them.
You clearly care about them andthey are clearly talented in a
way.
So, like, like it requiresmanagement, requires your time,
effort and energy to kind of putthis person on the right path.
But I do think there's a pointwhere you have to basically say
like okay, I've done my thing.
(30:52):
Like I cannot invest any moretime in this person.
Like now it's up to them onwhether or not they flourish and
grow.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
It's up to them on whether ornot they flourish and grow.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
I appreciate talking it throughbecause I think there are.
You know it is a lot onmanagement Like some people
think, like managers justprovide the guidance and like
you have to do all the work asthe employee, in reality it's
like you really, as the manager,have to do a lot of the work if
you're helping someone grow.
And that's why it's such animportant role, and I think
(31:19):
people who have never beenmanagers don't really see that,
but it's like you really wantyour team to do well.
It requires a lot of work fromyou and investment from you to
constantly be thinking about howdo I help this person?
Where are the challenges?
How do I do it in a way thatthey're going to feel encouraged
, like they have a path, likeit's a lot of work to manage
people and to build a reallystrong team, and so I think
that's these are the type ofthings that come up which make
(31:41):
it really challenging, becauseit's hard to not make it
personal and you also will losegood people and that's like the
hardest thing.
But if it's the best thing forthem, it's the best thing for
the company.
You should absolutely figureout how to do that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yep Completely agree.
And that's why I'm a terriblemanager.
By the way, you don't even talkto your employees.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You're like give them an email at the beginning of
the week.
You say these are the things.
Get them done.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, like you know, I just tell them like if I have
to talk to you this week,consider it a personal failure
on my end.
Like if you Slack me, it meansyou're incapable of doing your
job.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Like I see the dot dot, dot done, you're fired.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Done.
I'm just over it If I see thedot dot dot.
You have ruined my day.
I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I hope your team listens to this I really do.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I do too.
I actually encourage them to.
They don't.
So you know it's on them.
It's on them for not knowing myvery specific manic behaviors.
You know I've given them allthe opportunities in the world.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
They know this good and well of how you approach
things, how you think aboutthings.
So if they haven't figured,that out by now.
It's on them.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, when I tell them, please leave me the hell
alone, and they don't do that,then it's really on them.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I mean, what do you do?
What do you do in that scenario?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
What can anyone do?
Just say sayonara, sucker,let's see cowboy away.
Oh man, we're going to make thecowboy thing a recurring bit on
the pod.
I don't know why this ishappening.
You don't know Because whatbetter way to represent
corporate than the Old West, abetter time when horse and
(33:24):
carriage rag dust across theland?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Grab your revolver, let's go get them, jimmy.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Rustling up Going to the water hole.
Water hole, I mean, that's likethe old water cooler right the
water hole, I would do itSlurping down a sarsaparilla.
That's like an alcohol party atwork, you know same.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I mean, I honestly think you become a better
manager when you just talk likethat 24 seven.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
It makes you more approachable.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Danny would agree.
I bet, if we got his hisunderstanding and said hey, if I
just switch to being a cowboy,will my team perform better,
he'd probably say yes well it's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It's so aggravating because when I talk to my team
like a cowboy, they go to hrlike and they, they, they say
bruce is using terms that are nolonger in vogue and should
probably be managed.
But uh, you know, here, here Iam.
I am rustling, rustling them,the cows are my team.
In this case, I'm wrestling mycaps, I'm driving the herd.
(34:27):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Wrestling the heifers on my team, cracking the whip,
listen, I don't.
I don't think saying wrestlingheifers and cracking the whip is
an HR violation.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, it's only an hr violation when I actually take
out the whip and show it to theteam, then it's then it's a
problem it's reminded me of thescene in the show the office
where the gun comes out youhaven't seen this.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
No, what are?
The one of the employees bringsa gun to work because he's like
.
He thinks it's all like fancyand cool and he's got a little
holster.
He's like the sheriff and he'slike work because he's like.
He thinks it's all like fancyand cool and he's got a little
holster.
He's like the sheriff and he'slike spinning around.
He's like don't worry, it's notloaded, and eventually it just
fires off in the ceiling.
It becomes this huge HRviolation.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
The gun's always loaded.
The gun is always loaded.
Just FYI For anyone who's neverfired a gun or fires a gun
every day the gun is alwaysloaded and that should be the
assumption.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yes, consider it loaded.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Never put your finger in that trigger unless you're
going to fire, yes, and neverspin it around like a cowboy
either.
Like, let me just you knowanother piece of advice for all
you cowpokes out there.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, that was our topic.
That was it.
I appreciate talking about it,and if anybody has any other
feedback or wants to discuss itmore, please bring it to our
discord.
I would love to chat.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I would love to revisit this once the issue has
either resolved or not resolveditself.
So do do let us know in thefuture how this turns out,
because I need to know.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, I'll bring back the updates and, in the
meantime, managerial tips.
I'm going to go back, assessthe behaviors, look at the
competencies look at whatthey're currently working on,
see if I can help identify thoseopportunities to break the
bigger things into smallerchunks for them and see if they
can do well creative problemsolving and I think from there
we can see how they do.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I love it.
I'm excited to hear about it.
Hey, clark, hey, hey, it's forhorses.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Don't you?
Oh no, no, you know what it'stime for.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We are way overdue.
It's time for hashtag Is it Meor Is it Corporate?
Oh, a game we play occasionallywhere you can submit an
anonymous confession to ourhashtag Is it Me or is it
corporate?
Channel on the discord, we havea confession from February 18th
Anonymous confession Numbernine.
We're just a little bit behind,but I think it's a good one and
(36:51):
I think we can knock it out.
And then, what remaining timewe have?
A while ago, I took anassignment in another part of
the company in order to developnew skills to bring back my old
unit.
Unfortunately, there weremultiple HR foul ups with my
personal file.
The latest was that theyoverpaid my vacation pay, so now
I have to pay back almost$1,500.
(37:12):
Just a typical HR adventure, oris it corporate?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So what's your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
to this.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
What's your immediate reaction to this?
I mean so you went to anotherpart of the company to learn new
skills.
Apparently, somebody must havetold you to do that, or you did
it on your own fruition, but I'massuming approval was there.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, it sounds like it took an assignment.
I mean, that sounds like therewere things put in place for
this to happen this way.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
And then HR just didn't properly track it.
So even though you knew to doit, you took the assignment.
Obviously, probably yourmanager knew about it.
Hr didn't properly put ittogether.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Correct and I'm guessing that they, you know,
they track this is.
This is not mentioned.
I'm making an assumption here,but like, but I'm assuming they
have listed time they could takeoff like a PTO pool and they
saw hey, I've got two weeksvacay, I'm going to take two
weeks vacay, but in their oldrole maybe it was only a week,
(38:16):
just guessing, based on the$1,500 required back pay or or
you know, clawback.
That's going to happen here.
And listen, if HR is notcompetent enough to manage this
assignment, it shouldn't havebeen offered in the first place.
And if you followed the book,if you requested the time off,
(38:36):
you took the time off.
It was in your pool.
And then you come back andthey're like oh, oopsie, oopsie,
we didn't track this right,that's on them.
That is the most corporatething I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I agree.
I mean for me, like clawingback pay that's a.
It's tough.
Like if you give pay as acorporation, that means somebody
approved it.
Like to me, that means theright checks and balances have
been done, we agree that theirpaycheck is going to have this
bonus.
Like if you were to give out abonus and be like, oh shoot, we
(39:10):
overpaid the bonus.
Like that would be the mostdemoralizing thing in the world.
Like something like this whereit's like yeah, I took vacation,
I got my pay.
Now they're trying to claw backbecause they couldn't have it
right between the two teams orwhatever on if you could take
vacation or not.
I don't know if that's theactual case, but clawing back
money from a giant, from asingular person, when you're a
(39:32):
giant corpo, is awful.
That's so corporate we've.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
We've talked about this before, but that is why I
left sales.
Yeah, they, they clawed backmoney because of a promotion
which is like the stupidestthing, right, like, oh, because
you moved from this territoryinto a global role, your quota
got reset, pay back your bonus.
Like excuse me, you promoted me, you moved me.
(39:58):
Like this is because I wasexcelling, so now I'm punished
for being good at my job.
Like I tell you it, it souredme so hard on that that I was
never able to like regain mymorale and I eventually left
sales forever.
So don't claw back just if.
If you're not capable of doingthe math and the employee has
(40:21):
done nothing wrong, never clawback.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Now I say that to you , clark, and into the void that
is corporate, knowing full wellthat they will never heed my
advice, because the one thingcorporate loves more than
anything is a single penny onthe table.
They would take the penny onthe table over any of us, 100%,
and I don't know why penny onthe table over any of us, 100%,
and I don't know why that is.
It's kind of disgusting, butthat's just how corpos are.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Money drives everything.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You know.
So, no doubt in my mind, thisis a corporate.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I agree.
This feels, I mean, prettyconfident.
It's corporate.
Just another tip for you.
I mean, if you are like on abusiness trip or something and
you're using your personal cardfor all your expenses which you
absolutely should it's like ifyou have to eat, they sent you
on this trip.
If you have to eat, if you'vegot to transport somewhere, if
you need to buy something forthe event you're hosting or the
(41:14):
business being like, you chargeall that, they sent you on this.
You didn't choose to do this outof your own pocket.
Don't pay things out of yourown pocket when you're on work
trips.
However, if you then go and buylike souvenirs for yourself, or
you go to like somethingextracurricular that was, like
you know, pretty expensive, likewhatever might be a movie, or
(41:35):
you know you went out and didsomething extracurricular way
outside of where you weresupposed to be.
Now you're starting to go into,that is a personal charge and
your company might not approvethat.
Some companies might, becausethey're like I don't care, you
can do whatever you want.
But I would say, if you'rebuying stuff that is personal
gain and not tying to thebusiness trip, they could try to
(41:56):
claw back money, which in thatcase, I think they're warranted.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Right.
Well, in that case you took themoney, right.
Like you're taking the moneyand they're taking it back.
But when you're given the moneyand then they take it back,
that's the difference for sure.
But like it's a, it's a good uhqualifier, I completely agree.
Like, always spend corporate'smoney as if it was your money,
because there's always thechance they don't approve the
expense.
So that's number one.
And number two be logical aboutthat stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, 100% agree.
That was great.
We haven't had one in a while.
That was awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I know If you want to do an, is it Me or Is it
Corporate?
Fair listener, lovely, lovelylistener.
All you have to do is do aforward slash, confess in the
discord and you can join thediscord by clicking the show
notes.
There's a link tree, a linktree.
You click the link tree andthen from there you'll you're
able to join discord.
Buy a baby onesie.
(42:51):
You can go to our website.
You can do a donation.
You can donate to the pod I.
I highly recommend it keeps thepot afloat.
We're poor, we're very poor atcorporate strategy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
I mean, I feel like we have a chart that's going on
in our virtual office right nowwhere Pepsi Man's at the top and
we're doing a fundraiser, we'reall the way at the bottom.
We're at zero, pepsi Man's $190away.
I'm just saying if youcontribute money, we'll buy
Pepsi man, we'll buy Pepsi.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Man, we'll do it.
I mean, there are always otherways that we can make Pepsi man
work.
I'm just saying I'm not sayingwe're going to sail the high
seas or anything like that, butwhen it comes to old games, you
know you don't always have topay for them.
(43:40):
You don't pay money for them,don't always have to pay for
them, you know you don't paymoney.
We're just saying the rightthing, we're just the right
thing, right the right thing,okay the right thing to do, like
if you listen to a podcast andthat podcast is free, but you
know, maybe it's not free, maybeit costs money for the podcast
to exist.
Then you support the show.
Do the link tree.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Good plug, good plug.
Keep this going, maybe we'llget some dollars.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Cut that out.
This podcast is sponsored byRage.
Don't do it.
Do you want the latest orcwarrior in your pool?
Do you want to stomp the landwith your heretic priest?
Use code CORPORATESTRATEGY.
Rage Shadow Legend.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Enter in promo code CAC at CACC, you get 20% off
your next battle pass.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Make sure to get the latest gym cauldron so you can
pull for the monolithic warrior.
He's really gonna level up yourgame.
You're gonna just stomp thoseelves.
The eyeballs are gonna come outof their heads.
Good promotion, go on, clark.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I don't think I have anything left in the tank.
This is why we balance eachother out.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Tanks are empty.
Link trees on the show notes.
You know how to get there.
Hey, if you like the show,leave it a review.
Please share with your friends.
Please give us some money,please, please, please, please,
but until next time, until nexttime when we see you, when we
see you, I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
And I'm Clark.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
And you're on mute.
Please Next week, please.
been a while since you heard that little beaver,
isn't it?
This is a bear.
I don't think we everdetermined what it is I have no
idea.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Guess who's back?
Who's back movements?
Who's that clarky, clark andthe funky bunch?
Speaker 1 (00:19):
oh, clarky, clark.
I.
I'm sorry, I I forgot.
I forgot.
Welcome back, clark, it's beena minute.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
It's been too long.
I had a little bit of apersonal thing happen and I've
been out for a couple weeks.
I've been off the game, but wehave had some awesome podcasts
with Sarah and then Alex inbetween.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So I feel like.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Sarah and.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Alex have been blowing up the Discord.
Yeah, they're the new hosts.
I don't.
They don't need us anymore.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I leave and we don't even host this anymore.
We're not even part of this.
The community has just takenoff.
All it took was me being gone.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I am quite certain we could just hand over the reins
of this to Sarah and Alex andthey would be fine.
They'd be fine, we shouldtotally.
The listeners might not be, butyeah, uh, I think they could
run uh, an infinite podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I love that, yeah, honestly, you know what's a
really cool feeling.
So I used to have, uh, back inthe day I'm going to my
corporate career, I used to beworried about job security.
I used to be like, if I leaveand they don't feel like they're
missing me, like am I reallycontributing?
Am I really, you know, doing agood job?
Because they don't even need me?
And nowadays, as I've grown inmy career, I realized it's so
(01:31):
important that you buildsomething that can scale without
you.
You set your team up forsuccess so it can move on
without you, and so it wasalmost like a proud dad moment
when I saw this thing was justrocking with you and everyone
else and I'm like this isincredible that we built
something that can carry on withor without one of us here.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And so we tested a good lesson.
We tested the waters when I wasjust like, oh sorry, my schedule
won't allow me to do anythingfor a month and you and Restrepo
had to fill in.
I mean, I think it's.
I think it's doable.
I think we've got a good cabalof guests now and like open
invite to people in the disky.
If you want to come on and test, test your might on the pod, we
(02:11):
we willing to, we willing tohear you, and I would absolutely
hand over the reins to any anyof the our previous guests.
They're all apt and ready toyour point.
Though, Like that is something Iam thinking a lot about
(02:36):
recently not handing over thepod Screw that I want to spend.
I agree, my biggest fear is notthe act of passing along, but
it's like the act of I might beinadvertently screwing you over
by bypassing this along to youBecause, like some people, they
can't.
They can't be you, Right,They'll never be able to be you.
But you also can't hinderyourself because only I can be
(03:01):
me.
You know what I'm saying.
You know what I mean oh yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, it's weird right, and it actually so.
This blends so nicely into thetopic, so we can either dive in
oh hey, before we do that, real,quick no before that, real
quick.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Welcome back to Corporate Strategy Podcast.
I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
And I'm Clark hey, what's going on Clark, how?
And I'm Clark hey, what's goingon Clark?
How is that not happening?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
yet.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I honestly, like I thought you already did that my
brain would just forget.
I never do it.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I refuse to do it.
I like to linger, I like to letit pop up.
I'm a big fan Like anothertangent.
I love when movies don't do thecredits in the beginning, Like
give me a late, you know, liketitle card.
The later into the movie thetitle card is, the more I'm like
this is good, this is good.
I saw a movie recently Highlyrecommend.
(03:54):
It's called Hundreds of Beavers.
It's very funny.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
It's a very funny movie.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
You don't get the title card until over an hour
into the movie.
It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I feel like there's a point where it's just
inappropriate, like at thatpoint it's like do you even do
it?
Like an hour in is pretty deep.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I think you can watch it free on YouTube, clark, I
think you would love this movie,just like knowing you, knowing
who you are.
It is a black and white silentfilm made last year about a
woodsman who has to deal withhundreds of beavers.
It is the funniest thing youwill ever see.
I promise you you will love it.
(04:34):
Specifically Like theprotagonist kind of reminds me
of you in a way.
He's scrappy, he's outdoorsy,but he's just, you know, dealing
with those hundreds of beavers.
It's a challenge, great.
Is this a true?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
anyway.
So it's a real, truest story.
The title card literallydoesn't pop for an hour into the
movie.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
It's fantastic how do you find these things?
That's that's what I want to do.
I enjoy well, I, I, that's whatI enjoy doing.
I like finding these things, soI find them, I go out looking
for them.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Uh, but my world is just so like so protected.
You know, I'm just like there'slike normie world.
You know where I'm in?
Normie world, like my many areof concern is like sports,
outdoors, work life and even inlife.
I'm not like searching the darkweb for weird things that are
super niche.
I stay pretty surface level.
(05:25):
I feel like you go deep onthese things and you somehow go
out of normie world and intothis land where I don't even
know exists yes, correct.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
well, I and and I don't, I don't live, I don't
operate in normie world period,right, like I don't know what
sports are, I don't know whatlife is outdoors, is for dogs to
go poop, like you know.
It's like all he said.
Like I am, I am sniffing aroundlike a truffle hog, sniffing
for that, that next thing thatjust sparks that joy, and it's
(05:58):
always these, these odd littleindie movies and games.
Just love it, love to Love tofind them, love to experience
them and then love to share themwith folks.
I'm your tester.
Basically I'm saying, hey,hundreds of beavers, this is a
Clark certified banger.
Trust me, you're going to loveit.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I love that for you.
I love this all about.
This is what makes you uniquelyyou, and that's what I love
about people.
Because the people, becausesure, it's the people that get
into these things.
It's like why in the world doyou even know about this?
And it's what makes people sointeresting.
I feel like I'm so boringcompared to awesome people like
you no, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
No, no.
But I mean like, see thatthat's the thing you are.
You are you, but, like for thebiz world, like I don't know how
to do half the crap, you knowhow to do, I would just follow
in your wake and be like fuckboy, he got this Me.
I'm like, nah, I'm too.
I'm too outside the normaloperational model.
(06:56):
I need the normality tofunction, I think, but I can't
do that myself.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think this is why we work so well together and,
honestly, as I think about it,like some of the closest people
in my life are very similar toyou.
They're like the creativethinkers and I'm like the I
don't know like the normalpusher along with things, and
it's like whenever we gettogether, magic happens and I
feel like that's what's so coolabout it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Well and I think that's part of what makes this
podcast interesting is you haveyou have the oddball, and then
you have, like the by the book,and you have to find the middle
ground, because neither worklike neither actually work in
corporate.
If you're too by the book,you'll find yourself stuck in a
rut, and if you're too oddball,you'll find yourself fired.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So, like it's that middle ground, it's right in the
middle ground that gets yousuccess that's what we're trying
to teach you all be thecombination, be right in the
middle of where we are on theoutliers of, and somehow you'll
find success be the odd book.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That's what you got to do.
Stand out, be different, thinkdifferent, think different.
Just do it, though.
Just do it.
Who said?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
that, just do it.
What else?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Pepsi man.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Continue with Pepsi man, please.
I'm never going to stop.
You brought it.
We need to find.
You know.
Our first live stream should beplaying that game.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
We should, absolutely , oh absolutely.
I wonder how much that costs toimport, because I was going to
say I could run it on originalhardware.
But before I commit tosomething too expensive oh my
gosh, it's $190 on eBay.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Oh my gosh are you serious Dead.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Serious PS1, pepsi man.
Sony PlayStation Test at $190.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wow, that's not a crazy investment.
Alright, everybody, donate us acoffee, we'll buy Pepsi man and
we'll live stream it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
For our first live stream.
Hell yeah, I'm down.
I'm so down to clown.
So you had a really good leadin moments ago, but I ruined it.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, you did.
Yeah, you literally justsquandered it.
You always do these incrediblelead ins.
I could feel it was weird.
I could feel it was weird, Icould feel the lead-in happening
and I was like, oh my gosh,this fits so nicely into what I
want to talk about today.
This fits so nicely, this fitsso nicely.
And then you're like nope,we're going to talk about
something completely different.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I felt it.
I felt you were going to do itand I really I kind of want to
be the guy that does the goodlead-ins, so I didn't want you
to have that moment.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
You just took it, okay, just stomped it with my
feet.
Well, now, this is a reallyboring intro to what I want to
talk about.
It could have been so naturaland fun, but now it's just
abrupt and in the middle of whatwe're talking about and
awkwardly behind.
Hey, let's skip to the topicnow.
Here it is.
Hey, do you ever Don't you dare, Don't you dare.
(09:41):
I can see when you step backand you got that smile on your
face.
You were cooking something tosay right there.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I was, I was, and I was like you know what?
I'm going to let Clark havethis one.
You couldn't control yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I couldn't I couldn't .
Speaker 1 (09:58):
This is what happens Like we haven't done a pod in so
long.
Like I've got these urges tojust be bad that you couldn't do
in the last two, when we haveguests, I mean well, one of them
was my wife, so I have to be,you know, behaved.
The other one was restrepo andyou know I get worried, like
(10:18):
he's he is smarter than me andlike he can beat me in a battle
of the wit.
So like I can't, I can't comeat him, but you and me, I feel
like we're on equal playingfield and I can just come in
there and I can be a disruptor.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm that oddball physically, I think alex would
whoop me, so I wouldn't evenattempt so in all he's like a
foot taller than both of usphysically, spiritually.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
We're not in that level, like we just kind of stay
below that level so we're justjust not going to challenge them
.
I know how to pick my battles.
You know I only pick battleswith my consistent podcast
co-host.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
We know, I think we're battling for power.
That's really what it is.
It's like we're neck and neckand I think we're going to be
like that the rest of our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Speaking of living life.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
You, you know.
Something I've been thinking alot about recently is succession
.
Have you, don't you dare, don'tyou dare.
I'm signing off.
This is it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
You can cover it.
Did it, did it done.
Did it welcome back?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
welcome back okay okay, you thought it was gonna
be easy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I thought it was yeah , no, no, we're gonna do this.
We're gonna actually do thetopic.
We were talking aboutsuccession.
This is important.
I'm thinking about that a lottoo.
I've been thinking about who isgoing to follow in my footsteps
.
We actually have to.
I don't know if you've ever hadto do this, and maybe that's
what you were alluding to at thebeginning.
Did you have to put together asuccession plan for your team,
or were you just thinking inyour head I should have a
(11:39):
succession plan?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I might have to, I might have to, I might have to,
I might have to.
And it got me thinking, likeyou know, this is not an insult
to any of my team members butlike none of them have the
specific skill set I have and Iwouldn't, like I don't think any
of them could fill in my shoes.
(12:02):
I say I don't think, but like Idon't want to you know I don't
put them blast here but likepart of the problem is like my
team specifically, I didn't hirepeople like me.
I hired people to fill in thethings that I can't do.
So I have a video person, Ihave a a a copywriter.
I have a community manager.
I have like a field partnermanager.
(12:23):
Like they're not doing my job.
They're doing their job and I'mhelping manage the chaos of
what they do, or trying to helpanyway, but like none of them
can really succeed into my rolebecause they're not solutions
marketers.
Right, like that's, that'sreally difficult.
Like I'm thinking in the backof my mind succession plan is
like do I have to hireexternally?
(12:44):
Like how do I do that?
You know what?
What are you thinking?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, that's interesting.
You know, since I'm more inenterprise, like for me, I have
a product management team, right?
So the course, you're like youlike exactly Like I don't hire
people that do different things.
There's other teams that hirethose people to do those things
because that's their domain, butour domain is product
management, digital productmanagement specifically, and so
(13:10):
within that I'm like I hirepeople that should be able to do
what I do one day and reallythe succession for them is like,
basically, we keep on expandingthe challenges for them, you
know, putting them on a harder,more complex project, putting
them in something they've neverdone before, whatever it is, to
see how they kind of adapt andlearn that area, if you will,
(13:31):
and see how they do in thatdifferent kind of environment,
and that kind of helps them growand expand their reach and
understand the business morebroadly, which then gets them
ready for that next level.
And what we're looking to doalong the way is we're
identifying what are those skillsets that makes us good at what
we do at our level and ourleader like what, how does?
How do they look down on us andsay they're being successful
(13:53):
because of X, y and Z?
And so over the years we've hadto define those behaviors
because, to be to be justtransparent, it was totally.
Does it feel like Clark is doinga good job and he's ready for a
promotion.
And it's all about did you getthe right visibility and do you
feel like you're ready?
But feel is so subjective.
And so we've been, our teamshave really been struggling on
(14:14):
like, well, am I doing thethings?
And when they ask us, are youdoing the things, and we say
yeah, I think so.
And like that's not a goodanswer and it doesn't give
someone a good path to say, well, what do I work on then?
Like how do I work?
If you don't feel like I'mready, then what do I need to do
?
And so we've been working overthe years to establish what are
those behaviors that we want tosee at each of the levels.
(14:35):
And once you're exceeding thethings you do at your level, or
doing the things at the nextlevel, then you should be
eligible for promotion, ofcourse, whenever the opportunity
does arise for the need for apromotion.
If that makes sense, can I aska?
Speaker 1 (14:48):
question Please, do you have actual written
guidelines?
Oh, if Clark wants to move tothe next level, clark needs to
do this, this, this and this.
Or is it like to be the nextlevel?
You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it like to be the
next level?
You have to do this, this, this, this, or is it?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
we don't know it's more of the second one to be,
and that's what we'veestablished in the last like,
even just two years of like, andI know because I've gone
through the ranks some of thepeople that are my peers got
hired into this job.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
They didn't work up the ranks to get to the level
that we're at.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
And so, like the perspective is different for me,
I was like I had no clue if Iwas doing right things or wrong
things.
I just went through my gut andintuition and what I thought was
important and I just acted theway I.
I thought I should act to getto that level.
But that's like very abstractand not concrete and probably
could have been done a lotbetter or had a lot more
guidance in figuring that out.
So we kind of worked on thattogether to say what are those
(15:48):
actual behaviors of the level,if you will.
So it's like associate productowner, product owner, product
manager, lead product manager,director of product management,
and what are the behaviors thatwe kind of aligned for each of
them that we should see at thatlevel.
And so it actually is.
It's pretty good because then,to your point, even though we're
(16:08):
just doing the second, when wehave our performance reviews we
can say to get to that nextlevel, we want to see this
behavior.
And sometimes in theconversations it's like, well, I
need to give my employee theopportunity to show that
behavior and guide them on howto do that.
So I sometimes have to do thework to say how do I give them
that opportunity?
How do I step out of the way,give them that opportunity so we
(16:29):
can see how they do and I canprovide feedback?
So, basically, even thoughwe're doing the second at the
role level, it gets to the firstat the individual level,
because you can talk at thatspecific level, I guess, or
criteria, which then gets intowell, how do you do it in your
specific role, in your specificarea?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yes, so I get you.
Now.
I see where the I see where thechallenge is arising.
Yeah, dealing with I'm dealingwith very similar things,
interestingly enough.
Yeah, and what's interesting,it's different to startup
because we don't have anythingactually quantified, so it is
all feel, uh, but taking thetraining wheels off, letting
(17:08):
people run and and trying to saylike, yeah, if you, if you were
able to prove that you can be adirector, go prove it.
But not being able to quantifywhat that actually is is
difficult.
But not being able to quantifywhat that actually is is
difficult and it's a personalchallenge.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Absolutely, and I've got a particular dilemma around
succession in this, okay, and Ineed your help.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I need the listening help.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hopefully we can debate this in the Discord.
What if somebody you thoughtcould basically be your
successor You're like, oh man,they've got the right stuff.
They're killing it in XYZ and,as you're trying to grow them to
be like, you're taking my shoes.
Next, what if they just can'tdo it, even though they really
want it?
Is there a point where it'slike you just can't, like it's
(17:56):
just not going to happen for you?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
So I'm going to ask some questions, Please.
One how valuable is this personto the company?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Super valuable and they have a lot of strengths
that I don't have, which is whyI think they're so great, but
they're lacking in the strengthsthat I have.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
They're lacking in the strengths that you have or
the strengths that they need todo the job Both that I have,
which are a necessity to do thejob.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
How are you going to?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
keep this person if they can't do this job.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's something I've been going through a lot in my
head of, because they want thatnext level so bad.
We talk about it all the timeand, you know, thanks to this
framework, I'm able to getreally specific.
I'm like here's what we need todo.
You're going to be in thismeeting, this meeting, this
meeting this week, but you havethe opportunity to do it, and
we've been trying for months now.
(18:52):
I'm like, okay, here's anopportunity, let's do it.
Here's an opportunity, let's doit.
And I think where we're gettingreally hung up is on something
that isn't always a supertangible do this, do this, do
this.
Then you can do this, if thatmakes sense.
It's more of I need you to becreative when you're problem
solving, not just you know, hey,give me the timeline, give me
(19:15):
the plan.
It's like I want you tocreatively think out of the box
on this problem and come up withsolutions.
I want you to creatively thinkout of the box on this problem
and come up with solutions.
And that's a hard thing to liketrain someone who is a certain
mindset to think differently.
And it's not something you canreally coach, because each
situation is a little unique.
So how do you coach somebody insomething that kind of is the
(19:35):
type of person you are if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Are you perhaps starting too big like, too big
of tasks, like if you, if yougave them smaller things to be
creative on?
Like this is something Istruggle with, in all honesty,
is when I try and solve bigproblems, it can quickly become
anxiety inducing because I don'thave all the cards, but, like
(20:02):
if I'm starting with somethingsmaller.
So instead of like you know, awhole marketing campaign instead
, it's well, what if I juststart with a thought leadership
blog, write this out, oh, okay,this is pretty good.
I can see how I can take thisand then turn it into something
that we do demand gen emailvideo, whatever, over a six
month period with additional ads.
See how I can take this andthen turn it into something that
we do demand gen email video,whatever over a six-month period
(20:23):
with additional like.
But it it takes me breaking thebig rock into little rocks.
Is it possible that you're juststarting with too big a rock
for this person?
So, like, flex that muscle andexercise this ability it could
be.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's interesting.
I think what's interestingabout the problems.
It's like it's the right sizeof problem for the role that
they're in.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yes For the role they're in currently.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yes For the role they're in currently.
Like they should be able totackle it in the role they're in
currently, but they'restruggling.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
So I'm seeing their partners.
I have multiple employees atthis level and I'm seeing their
partners do really well with it,so they're tackling the about
it this way rather than this way, and I think this person, even
(21:25):
though we could break it downinto smaller problem sets those
smaller problem sets are theirteams that are working on those
things and actually doing wellon those smaller problem sets.
So where they are currently,it's like they're not doing
great at the problems that theyshould be doing great at, and if
you were to divide it intosmaller things and give that
opportunity, that's what theirteam's doing, which makes it
even more complex.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
So now I'm confused because you said that earlier.
This person is valuable andthey bring a lot to the table,
but it also sounds at the sametime that they're not capable of
doing the role they're in rightnow.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I think in some sense that's yes and in some sense
it's no.
It's like there's areas thatthey're doing really, really
well in, but there's likecritical areas that they're not,
and so their team is making upfor where they're struggling,
which is actually what you'resupposed to do, right?
You're like, if I'm not greatat something, my team makes up
for it, which they do.
But I is actually what you'resupposed to do, right?
(22:26):
You're like, if I'm not great,my team makes up for it, which
they do.
But I think, as a core part ofthis role, to get to that next
level.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
You have to be really good at this core competency,
not your team, if that is.
Is this person in the rightrole?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
yeah, you're going where my head.
My head's crossed this path.
It's like I want this person.
This person is valuable to thecompany.
I think they're really smart,smart.
I think they will be good, butmaybe it's not the right role
for them.
Like, maybe they deserve to go.
We should look to move them toa role where they'll be more
successful and able to get tothis level in a different
(22:54):
capacity, because that's wheretheir strong suits lie.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah, I'm, I'm in full agreement.
It's live.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm in fullagreement.
Um, the?
I think back to when we haddanny yonkers on the pod, one of
the most influential episodesof my life.
I think back on it often.
If you have not listened to theepisode with danny yonkers
about management, go back andfind it.
I don't know what the number is, but you're going to go back
(23:18):
and you're going to find itbecause it'd be worth your time
to listen to the.
The point he made about his oneteam member who was really great
, but you know he kept trying tolike get them to do more for
the role they were in and thenrealized like it was actually
his failure because he didn'tput them in the right position
to succeed.
Like that sticks in my craw man, like I think about that all
(23:40):
the time.
I think about that with mycurrent team and you know I'm at
a.
I'm at a very interesting jobbecause it's a startup that
wants to be, you know, anenterprise.
So I'm dealing with justabsolute whiplash in the.
Is this content scrappy or isthis content enterprise grade,
right?
And like going back and forthwith my team and upper
(24:02):
management on this all the timeit's it is exhausting, is it is
frustrating, as it is likeexciting.
But I'm always thinking like ismy team just collectively?
Like am I putting them in aposition to succeed, given this
complete variability of this job?
And like it really depends onwhat mode we're in every day.
(24:25):
And that's the solace I takemyself is, like you know, the
company is still figuring outwhat it wants to be, so I can't
say that they're not right forthe role because we don't know
what we are yet.
But in your case, you're in avery stable organization, like
it is very your.
Your job is not going to lookany different next year than it
does today, and what you'redoing next year is going to be
(24:46):
the exact same that we weredoing today.
Obviously different things, butlike the roles and
responsibilities will be thesame.
Mine will not.
Mine won't be the same nextmonth, right?
Like that's the differencebetween where we are.
But I think that you know whatthis person needs, either in
their current role or in theirnext role, and it's going to be
a tricky conversation, but Ithink it sounds like they're a
(25:08):
really good person, but they'renot in the right place for them
to be successful and if you canconvince them like, hey,
actually doing this lateral movetoday means that you can move
up next year, like that'sprobably the development path
they need to be on.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's it's what I'vebeen going back and forth on and
like.
On one hand, it's like youdon't want to lose the great
person but you want the best forthem, to your point.
On going back to like Danny'sconversation, it's like this
person's great in so many waysthey're doing, let's say, 70 ish
percent of what I need them todo really.
They're doing let's say 70-ishpercent of what I need them to
do really, really well, actuallygoing above and beyond in some
of those areas.
But the core, like additional 30percent that I really really
(25:46):
need them to do and what willget them to the next level,
that's not their strong suit.
They're going to have to goback to like ground zero in
order to learn those skills inthe most like the smallest way
possible.
Can they even learn it?
That's the thing is like.
I think there is a point inyour life where it's like you
recognize the type of person youare and I think maybe I think
(26:11):
everybody has the capacity tolearn, but you'd have to put in
a lot of effort, like you'dalmost have to go down to being
like an associate product ownerdemonstrating the behaviors,
working on those really smallmicro problems, finding
solutions, do it for a long timeand then, once you do that for
a long time, you'll probablyhave it and you'll probably
figure it out pretty quick.
But I think it's years, notmonths, away, if that makes
(26:31):
sense, and it's like, on theother hand, you go to another
role that you're doing 90% ofreally, really well.
You can probably get the nextpromotion faster than having to
go around zero and that's likethe hardest thing and like I'd
also be devastated if I lostthis person.
I think they're great in somany ways, but I need to look
(26:52):
out for them of what they needto do to get to that next level,
and that's got to be with theopportunity that I find the hard
thing.
I'm curious, Bruce, what youthink about this.
The hard thing is finding themthat next thing and knowing and
convincing them that, hey, thisis the good, right move for you
because you're going to be ableto get to that next level.
(27:12):
Because I don't know that roleor that competency right, so I
can't confidently say you've gotwhat it takes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
So I think it's that classic cowboy saying you can
lead a horse to water, but youcan't make them drink, right?
Like your job is to presentthis option to them and say
listen you, you cowboy.
You're hanging around thisdusty old town, but this town
ain't good for you.
You need to be two towns overin Rockvale.
(27:42):
In Rockvale you can findsuccess.
There's gold in them hills.
Now you can stay here and youwill get shot by bandits, or you
can go to Rockvale and mineyourself some gold.
Partner.
But like, you have to have thatconversation with them and if
they choose to take your advicepower to them, if they say, hey,
(28:09):
I'm gonna hang around thisdusty old town, like things will
play out the way that they playout.
Like if they have not changedthe behavior, if they have not
shown that they're capable ofbeing better, they're going
their CAC is going to quicklydrop Right, Because, like we
know what they want, we knowthey can't get what they want.
You express that to them Likeyou're not going to get this
here.
You just are not unless youdemonstrate these specific
(28:30):
behaviors which you have notdemonstrated.
It's going to be a hardconversation, but like it's a
conversation that has to happen.
And then you say literally thisjob over here, though, like I
fully believe you can findsuccess, but you have to go for
it, you have to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's a really hard conversation.
It's hard to not get like takeit personal.
I think, from their point ofview, like if I was in their
shoes, I feel the same way, likeOK, I have a little bit of
imposter syndrome here.
I'm doing this role.
You know, I've been doing itfor a while.
I thought this was my path andnow you're telling me this is
(29:04):
might not be my path, maybe Ineed to go down a different path
, which feels like a step backand it kind of feels like a
failure.
It's like I can't do the thingsI need to do to get to the next
level.
And I'm trying, and I thinkthey are trying, I think they're
doing, they're trying really,really hard, but it's just not
clicking.
And there's a point where it'sjust like If it's not clicking
(29:26):
in, the opportunity to do it,like you said, at smaller levels
is not easily present, becauseyou need to be operating at a
certain level.
You can't go back to groundzero.
It's hard because you could say, ok, maybe it's, maybe it's a
training thing, maybe we shouldput them in like a training or
something like that, like maybeyou can find the right training
class that'll help them likerealize how to have that
(29:47):
skillset, but finding that islike so hard and then you got to
fund it and then you got to getthem to do it and it's it's
difficult to manage and so toyour point.
it's like the fastest path isprobably finding the position
that truly they can succeed inreally really well, and it'll be
the best thing for them in thelong run, even though it feels
like a little bit of a setbackright now.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
It might help if you make a timeline for them too.
Just like a hypothetical Likeyeah, you stay here, you get
trained.
It's looking like X amount ofmonths or years you go here, you
do this.
Yeah, it looks like a setback,but you can get to next level
this much faster than if youhang around Like I think it's.
Unfortunately, there's a littlebit of work on your end to make
(30:32):
this appealing because, like,you don't want this person to
ultimately have this negativelyimpact them.
You clearly care about them andthey are clearly talented in a
way.
So, like, like it requiresmanagement, requires your time,
effort and energy to kind of putthis person on the right path.
But I do think there's a pointwhere you have to basically say
like okay, I've done my thing.
(30:52):
Like I cannot invest any moretime in this person.
Like now it's up to them onwhether or not they flourish and
grow.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
It's up to them on whether ornot they flourish and grow.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
I appreciate talking it throughbecause I think there are.
You know it is a lot onmanagement Like some people
think, like managers justprovide the guidance and like
you have to do all the work asthe employee, in reality it's
like you really, as the manager,have to do a lot of the work if
you're helping someone grow.
And that's why it's such animportant role, and I think
(31:19):
people who have never beenmanagers don't really see that,
but it's like you really wantyour team to do well.
It requires a lot of work fromyou and investment from you to
constantly be thinking about howdo I help this person?
Where are the challenges?
How do I do it in a way thatthey're going to feel encouraged
, like they have a path, likeit's a lot of work to manage
people and to build a reallystrong team, and so I think
that's these are the type ofthings that come up which make
(31:41):
it really challenging, becauseit's hard to not make it
personal and you also will losegood people and that's like the
hardest thing.
But if it's the best thing forthem, it's the best thing for
the company.
You should absolutely figureout how to do that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yep Completely agree.
And that's why I'm a terriblemanager.
By the way, you don't even talkto your employees.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You're like give them an email at the beginning of
the week.
You say these are the things.
Get them done.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, like you know, I just tell them like if I have
to talk to you this week,consider it a personal failure
on my end.
Like if you Slack me, it meansyou're incapable of doing your
job.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Like I see the dot dot, dot done, you're fired.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Done.
I'm just over it If I see thedot dot dot.
You have ruined my day.
I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I hope your team listens to this I really do.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I do too.
I actually encourage them to.
They don't.
So you know it's on them.
It's on them for not knowing myvery specific manic behaviors.
You know I've given them allthe opportunities in the world.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
They know this good and well of how you approach
things, how you think aboutthings.
So if they haven't figured,that out by now.
It's on them.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, when I tell them, please leave me the hell
alone, and they don't do that,then it's really on them.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I mean, what do you do?
What do you do in that scenario?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
What can anyone do?
Just say sayonara, sucker,let's see cowboy away.
Oh man, we're going to make thecowboy thing a recurring bit on
the pod.
I don't know why this ishappening.
You don't know Because whatbetter way to represent
corporate than the Old West, abetter time when horse and
(33:24):
carriage rag dust across theland?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Grab your revolver, let's go get them, jimmy.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Rustling up Going to the water hole.
Water hole, I mean, that's likethe old water cooler right the
water hole, I would do itSlurping down a sarsaparilla.
That's like an alcohol party atwork, you know same.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I mean, I honestly think you become a better
manager when you just talk likethat 24 seven.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
It makes you more approachable.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Danny would agree.
I bet, if we got his hisunderstanding and said hey, if I
just switch to being a cowboy,will my team perform better,
he'd probably say yes well it's.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It's so aggravating because when I talk to my team
like a cowboy, they go to hrlike and they, they, they say
bruce is using terms that are nolonger in vogue and should
probably be managed.
But uh, you know, here, here Iam.
I am rustling, rustling them,the cows are my team.
In this case, I'm wrestling mycaps, I'm driving the herd.
(34:27):
You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Wrestling the heifers on my team, cracking the whip,
listen, I don't.
I don't think saying wrestlingheifers and cracking the whip is
an HR violation.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, it's only an hr violation when I actually take
out the whip and show it to theteam, then it's then it's a
problem it's reminded me of thescene in the show the office
where the gun comes out youhaven't seen this.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
No, what are?
The one of the employees bringsa gun to work because he's like
.
He thinks it's all like fancyand cool and he's got a little
holster.
He's like the sheriff and he'slike work because he's like.
He thinks it's all like fancyand cool and he's got a little
holster.
He's like the sheriff and he'slike spinning around.
He's like don't worry, it's notloaded, and eventually it just
fires off in the ceiling.
It becomes this huge HRviolation.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
The gun's always loaded.
The gun is always loaded.
Just FYI For anyone who's neverfired a gun or fires a gun
every day the gun is alwaysloaded and that should be the
assumption.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yes, consider it loaded.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Never put your finger in that trigger unless you're
going to fire, yes, and neverspin it around like a cowboy
either.
Like, let me just you knowanother piece of advice for all
you cowpokes out there.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, that was our topic.
That was it.
I appreciate talking about it,and if anybody has any other
feedback or wants to discuss itmore, please bring it to our
discord.
I would love to chat.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I would love to revisit this once the issue has
either resolved or not resolveditself.
So do do let us know in thefuture how this turns out,
because I need to know.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, I'll bring back the updates and, in the
meantime, managerial tips.
I'm going to go back, assessthe behaviors, look at the
competencies look at whatthey're currently working on,
see if I can help identify thoseopportunities to break the
bigger things into smallerchunks for them and see if they
can do well creative problemsolving and I think from there
we can see how they do.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I love it.
I'm excited to hear about it.
Hey, clark, hey, hey, it's forhorses.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Don't you?
Oh no, no, you know what it'stime for.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
We are way overdue.
It's time for hashtag Is it Meor Is it Corporate?
Oh, a game we play occasionallywhere you can submit an
anonymous confession to ourhashtag Is it Me or is it
corporate?
Channel on the discord, we havea confession from February 18th
Anonymous confession Numbernine.
We're just a little bit behind,but I think it's a good one and
(36:51):
I think we can knock it out.
And then, what remaining timewe have?
A while ago, I took anassignment in another part of
the company in order to developnew skills to bring back my old
unit.
Unfortunately, there weremultiple HR foul ups with my
personal file.
The latest was that theyoverpaid my vacation pay, so now
I have to pay back almost$1,500.
(37:12):
Just a typical HR adventure, oris it corporate?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Oh no.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
So what's your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
to this.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
What's your immediate reaction to this?
I mean so you went to anotherpart of the company to learn new
skills.
Apparently, somebody must havetold you to do that, or you did
it on your own fruition, but I'massuming approval was there.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, it sounds like it took an assignment.
I mean, that sounds like therewere things put in place for
this to happen this way.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
And then HR just didn't properly track it.
So even though you knew to doit, you took the assignment.
Obviously, probably yourmanager knew about it.
Hr didn't properly put ittogether.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Correct and I'm guessing that they, you know,
they track this is.
This is not mentioned.
I'm making an assumption here,but like, but I'm assuming they
have listed time they could takeoff like a PTO pool and they
saw hey, I've got two weeksvacay, I'm going to take two
weeks vacay, but in their oldrole maybe it was only a week,
(38:16):
just guessing, based on the$1,500 required back pay or or
you know, clawback.
That's going to happen here.
And listen, if HR is notcompetent enough to manage this
assignment, it shouldn't havebeen offered in the first place.
And if you followed the book,if you requested the time off,
(38:36):
you took the time off.
It was in your pool.
And then you come back andthey're like oh, oopsie, oopsie,
we didn't track this right,that's on them.
That is the most corporatething I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
I agree.
I mean for me, like clawingback pay that's a.
It's tough.
Like if you give pay as acorporation, that means somebody
approved it.
Like to me, that means theright checks and balances have
been done, we agree that theirpaycheck is going to have this
bonus.
Like if you were to give out abonus and be like, oh shoot, we
(39:10):
overpaid the bonus.
Like that would be the mostdemoralizing thing in the world.
Like something like this whereit's like yeah, I took vacation,
I got my pay.
Now they're trying to claw backbecause they couldn't have it
right between the two teams orwhatever on if you could take
vacation or not.
I don't know if that's theactual case, but clawing back
money from a giant, from asingular person, when you're a
(39:32):
giant corpo, is awful.
That's so corporate we've.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
We've talked about this before, but that is why I
left sales.
Yeah, they, they clawed backmoney because of a promotion
which is like the stupidestthing, right, like, oh, because
you moved from this territoryinto a global role, your quota
got reset, pay back your bonus.
Like excuse me, you promoted me, you moved me.
(39:58):
Like this is because I wasexcelling, so now I'm punished
for being good at my job.
Like I tell you it, it souredme so hard on that that I was
never able to like regain mymorale and I eventually left
sales forever.
So don't claw back just if.
If you're not capable of doingthe math and the employee has
(40:21):
done nothing wrong, never clawback.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Now I say that to you , clark, and into the void that
is corporate, knowing full wellthat they will never heed my
advice, because the one thingcorporate loves more than
anything is a single penny onthe table.
They would take the penny onthe table over any of us, 100%,
and I don't know why penny onthe table over any of us, 100%,
and I don't know why that is.
It's kind of disgusting, butthat's just how corpos are.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Money drives everything.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
You know.
So, no doubt in my mind, thisis a corporate.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I agree.
This feels, I mean, prettyconfident.
It's corporate.
Just another tip for you.
I mean, if you are like on abusiness trip or something and
you're using your personal cardfor all your expenses which you
absolutely should it's like ifyou have to eat, they sent you
on this trip.
If you have to eat, if you'vegot to transport somewhere, if
you need to buy something forthe event you're hosting or the
(41:14):
business being like, you chargeall that, they sent you on this.
You didn't choose to do this outof your own pocket.
Don't pay things out of yourown pocket when you're on work
trips.
However, if you then go and buylike souvenirs for yourself, or
you go to like somethingextracurricular that was, like
you know, pretty expensive, likewhatever might be a movie, or
(41:35):
you know you went out and didsomething extracurricular way
outside of where you weresupposed to be.
Now you're starting to go into,that is a personal charge and
your company might not approvethat.
Some companies might, becausethey're like I don't care, you
can do whatever you want.
But I would say, if you'rebuying stuff that is personal
gain and not tying to thebusiness trip, they could try to
(41:56):
claw back money, which in thatcase, I think they're warranted.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Right.
Well, in that case you took themoney, right.
Like you're taking the moneyand they're taking it back.
But when you're given the moneyand then they take it back,
that's the difference for sure.
But like it's a, it's a good uhqualifier, I completely agree.
Like, always spend corporate'smoney as if it was your money,
because there's always thechance they don't approve the
expense.
So that's number one.
And number two be logical aboutthat stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, 100% agree.
That was great.
We haven't had one in a while.
That was awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I know If you want to do an, is it Me or Is it
Corporate?
Fair listener, lovely, lovelylistener.
All you have to do is do aforward slash, confess in the
discord and you can join thediscord by clicking the show
notes.
There's a link tree, a linktree.
You click the link tree andthen from there you'll you're
able to join discord.
Buy a baby onesie.
(42:51):
You can go to our website.
You can do a donation.
You can donate to the pod I.
I highly recommend it keeps thepot afloat.
We're poor, we're very poor atcorporate strategy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
I mean, I feel like we have a chart that's going on
in our virtual office right nowwhere Pepsi Man's at the top and
we're doing a fundraiser, we'reall the way at the bottom.
We're at zero, pepsi Man's $190away.
I'm just saying if youcontribute money, we'll buy
Pepsi man, we'll buy Pepsi.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Man, we'll do it.
I mean, there are always otherways that we can make Pepsi man
work.
I'm just saying I'm not sayingwe're going to sail the high
seas or anything like that, butwhen it comes to old games, you
know you don't always have topay for them.
(43:40):
You don't pay money for them,don't always have to pay for
them, you know you don't paymoney.
We're just saying the rightthing, we're just the right
thing, right the right thing,okay the right thing to do, like
if you listen to a podcast andthat podcast is free, but you
know, maybe it's not free, maybeit costs money for the podcast
to exist.
Then you support the show.
Do the link tree.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Good plug, good plug.
Keep this going, maybe we'llget some dollars.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Cut that out.
This podcast is sponsored byRage.
Don't do it.
Do you want the latest orcwarrior in your pool?
Do you want to stomp the landwith your heretic priest?
Use code CORPORATESTRATEGY.
Rage Shadow Legend.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Enter in promo code CAC at CACC, you get 20% off
your next battle pass.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Make sure to get the latest gym cauldron so you can
pull for the monolithic warrior.
He's really gonna level up yourgame.
You're gonna just stomp thoseelves.
The eyeballs are gonna come outof their heads.
Good promotion, go on, clark.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
I don't think I have anything left in the tank.
This is why we balance eachother out.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Tanks are empty.
Link trees on the show notes.
You know how to get there.
Hey, if you like the show,leave it a review.
Please share with your friends.
Please give us some money,please, please, please, please,
but until next time, until nexttime when we see you, when we
see you, I'm Bruce.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
And I'm Clark.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
And you're on mute.
Please Next week, please.
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